Could Iberian E-V13 be Visigothic?

[Kriptc06]

Could the Iberian V13 have been brought by the migrating barbarians also known as the visigoths?
They were in the balkans for some time and went on a pillaging route until they settled in the Iberian peninsula (goths, that split into visigoths and ostrogoths)

http://www.worldology.com/Europe/images/decline_rome_visigoths.jpg


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/df/4d/a5/df4da5a22554af3272ef1f3a0674242b.jpg

btw, of course they brought also other Y haplos with them, but lets focus on E-V13, being most prevalent in the balkans; It's known that the goths mixed with local populations where they go.


Could it be, or not.
Discuss

[Sacrificed Ram]

We don't konw much about E-V13 subclades and their geographical distribution.

We have E-V13 in Iberia with 7000 years old, but visigoths (and alans) also could carry them to Iberia.

The studies need evolute to do more precise affirmations.

[Damião de Góis]

Could be roman. Could be there all along too. Not easy to tell.

[Kriptc06]

We don't konw much about E-V13 subclades and their geographical distribution.

We have E-V13 in Iberia with 7000 years old, but visigoths (and alans) also could carry them to Iberia.

The studies need evolute to do more precise affirmations.

Well I'm V13+, so I still don't know my final subclade.
But still an interesting hypothesis.


Could be roman. Could be there all along too. Not easy to tell.
I hope that DNA studies can tell this in the future.

[Kriptc06]

What I found on Europedia, bummer


The Visigothic Kingdom was the larger and longer lived than the Suebi Kingdom, and yet the Goths do not seem to have had any significant genetic impact on the Iberian population - at least not in terms of Germanic Y-DNA. The reason might simply be that they were no longer a predominantly Germanic tribe. After all, the Goths had lived for many centuries in Eastern Europe and nearly two more centuries in the Balkans before invading Italy, Gaul and Iberia. They could have assimilated a lot of non-Germanic people on the way, notably R1a and I2a1b Slavs and predominantly E1b1b, I2a1b and J2 Balkanic people. It would be pretty complicated at the moment to untangle the Balkanic E1b1b and J2 from all the others (Neolithic, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jewish, Arabic) found in Iberia.

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml

[Cristiano viejo]

I doubt it, Visigothics were not famous for being swarthy.

[Kriptc06]

I doubt it, Visigothics were not famous for being swarthy.

Y-dna haplogroups have no direct links with overall apearance

[Grab the Gauge]

E-V13 always comes from Albanian overlords.

[Kriptc06]

E-V13 always comes from Albanian overlords.

they could have joined the gothic legion and helped to sack rome and conquer iberia :icon_yes:
I agree

[Dick]

Y-dna haplogroups have no direct links with overall apearance

It does, not pigmentation wise though.

[Kriptc06]

It does, not pigmentation wise though.

what does it influence then? bear in mid that e-v13 is present in europe for more than 5k years.

[Dick]

what does it influence then? bear in mid that e-v13 is present in europe for more than 5k years.

Skull and body shape also brain function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854822/

[Kriptc06]

Skull and body shape also brain function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854822/

so my brain is albanian ?

[Dick]

so my brain is albanian ?

No silly, your skull shape is Albanian.

[Kriptc06]

No silly, your skull shape is Albanian.

So, can I apply for albanian citizenship? :rolleyes:

[Dick]

So, can I apply for albanian citizenship? :rolleyes:

Yes.

[Kriptc06]

Yes.

xD darn now I want to make a "can I pass in Albania thread"

[wvwvw]

E-V13 always comes from Albanian overlords.

It has nothing to do with "Albanians" since Albanians were neither forbiddable seafarers nor have they left traces of their civilization in Iberia assuming "Albanians" have anything to do with Illyrians.

The only advanced civilization in the Ancient world was that of Ancient Greeks. Ev13 originated from Greece and that's where its oldest subclades are found, and before that from Cyprus and Palestine (10,000 ago).

We also know that agriculture was spread to Europe by Greeks and not by some vague "Neolithic" group since the "Phoenican" Jasmine marker is not found in European populations but the Greek markers are found all over Europe.

The Goths were I who later mixed with R1b and had pretty much nothing to do with Ev13. In the Balkans the Goths remained mostly untainted until the Slavs came along in 600 AD.

The migration of the Jasmine's accross the Mediterranean 10,000 years ago would have left traces in modern Germanic and Slavic DNA if they had been in contact with the Mediterranean populations at the time and it didn't.

[Dick]

xD darn now I want to make a "can I pass in Albania thread"

Do it.

[DarknessWin]

Yes, many of them were EV13

[Grab the Gauge]

It has nothing to do with "Albanians" since Albanians were neither forbiddable seafarers nor have they left traces of their civilization in Iberia assuming "Albanians" have anything to do with Illyrians.

The only advanced civilization in the Ancient world was that of Ancient Greeks. Ev13 originated from Greece and that's where its oldest subclades are found, and before that from Cyprus and Palestine (10,000 ago).

We also know that agriculture was spread to Europe by Greeks and not by some vague "Neolithic" group since the "Phoenican" Jasmine marker is not found in European populations but the Greek markers are found all over Europe.

The Goths were I who later mixed with R1b and had pretty much nothing to do with Ev13. In the Balkans the Goths remained mostly untainted until the Slavs came along in 600 AD.

The migration of the Jasmine's accross the Mediterranean 10,000 years ago would have left traces in modern Germanic and Slavic DNA if they had been in contact with the Mediterranean populations at the time and it didn't.

Lol, Greek coping. Albanians built Greece and are the oldest E-V13. It's not about spreading civilization it's about spreading E-V13. Greece is a Y-DNA toilet for Barbarian men to release their genes in to.

[Rethel]

Could the Iberian V13 have been brought by the migrating barbarians also known as the visigoths?

It is probably the less probable source, but could happen, if they captured
some slaves or some guy make an alliance with them. But still, in very small
singular numbers. More probable are farmer migrations, Greek colonization,
Roman resettlement and some Aragonian subjects who run before Turks.
Some Phoenicians could brought it also.

[Rethel]

Skull and body shape also brain function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854822/

Why I was saying this, people were laughing.
But was enugh to write it in a paper, and now it is serious. :picard1:

[Rethel]

Y-dna haplogroups have no direct links with overall apearance

Yes, it has. You do not look like this becasue of Y:

http://www.itel.co.in/images/fraction-slider/callingc.png

And Y subdivision called hg tells you your original subracial
looking (which in many cases people do not longer have).

[Potentia]

Skull and body shape also brain function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854822/

Wat.

I doubt that my being R1b-U152 would have any effect on my brain or skull.

[Ülev]

http://www.itel.co.in/images/fraction-slider/callingc.png



yummy

[Megadorian]

Different subclades of J2a dominate especially in Western Crete, more than 40% and E subclades are very low

lol at "albanian overlords"-last country that obtained indipendence from ottomans(500 years!)
-islamic majority, they were the only balkan population to convert en masse so easily
-clusterfuck language with more than half of dictionary borrowed from latin, greek or slavic
-toponymystical map a total catastrophe, filled with slavic named villages, cities and rivers, even their capital has no clear etymology

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Wat.

I doubt that my being R1b-U152 would have any effect on my brain or skull.

It doesn't. Just look at the members photos section

[Kelmendasi]

Different subclades of J2a dominate especially in Western Crete, more than 40% and E subclades are very low

lol at "albanian overlords"-last country that obtained indipendence from ottomans(500 years!)
-islamic majority, they were the only balkan population to convert en masse so easily
-clusterfuck language with more than half of dictionary borrowed from latin, greek or slavic
-toponymystical map a total catastrophe, filled with slavic named villages, cities and rivers, even their capital has no clear etymology
Your just jealous ;). And Albanian is hardly influenced by Greek and Slavic so don't try and promote your ethnicity and show their influence in the Albanian language.

[Kelmendasi]

It has nothing to do with "Albanians" since Albanians were neither forbiddable seafarers nor have they left traces of their civilization in Iberia assuming "Albanians" have anything to do with Illyrians.

The only advanced civilization in the Ancient world was that of Ancient Greeks. Ev13 originated from Greece and that's where its oldest subclades are found, and before that from Cyprus and Palestine (10,000 ago).

We also know that agriculture was spread to Europe by Greeks and not by some vague "Neolithic" group since the "Phoenican" Jasmine marker is not found in European populations but the Greek markers are found all over Europe.

The Goths were I who later mixed with R1b and had pretty much nothing to do with Ev13. In the Balkans the Goths remained mostly untainted until the Slavs came along in 600 AD.

The migration of the Jasmine's accross the Mediterranean 10,000 years ago would have left traces in modern Germanic and Slavic DNA if they had been in contact with the Mediterranean populations at the time and it didn't.
You retarded kurva, E-V13 has nothing to do with Greeks except in parts of the Middle east and Sicily, E-V13 was spread mainly by Indo-Europeans during the Bronze age that absorbed it. It's funny how you think that Greeks existed during the Neolithic period even though your language is Indo-European xD

[Voskos]

Lol, Greek coping. Albanians built Greece and are the oldest E-V13. It's not about spreading civilization it's about spreading E-V13. Greece is a Y-DNA toilet for Barbarian men to release their genes in to.

you and whoever upvoted your post are retarded

[Kriptc06]

Yes, it has. You do not look like this becasue of Y:

http://www.itel.co.in/images/fraction-slider/callingc.png

And Y subdivision called hg tells you your original subracial
looking (which in many cases people do not longer have).

I mean.. A..

Never mind lol

[Rethel]

I mean.. A.

Are also people, who would not agree what you meant with.

[Kriptc06]

Are also people, who would not agree what you meant with.

I'm V13 +, I still don't know my final subclade, but now I'm using my money for other things hahha, one day will test further. To buy the V13 pack, but my guess is in my profile.

[DarknessWin]

Lol, Greek coping. Albanians built Greece and are the oldest E-V13. It's not about spreading civilization it's about spreading E-V13. Greece is a Y-DNA toilet for Barbarian men to release their genes in to.

You are in pain because Greeks fuck your sisters every summer??
I will fuck your mother next fucking pussy

[Cristiano viejo]

E-V13 always comes from Albanian overlords.

hahahaha
And thousand times hahahaha
Albanian overlords... what a guy xD

[Rethel]

http://es.web.img3.acsta.net/c_300_300/pictures/210/204/21020434_20130717162741243.jpg

http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gif

[Era]

Never heard of the conquista but look at the description in the movie they dedicated to it.

KIng Carlos II of Navarre once (XIV century) sent his brother Don Luis de Beaumont to lead a military expedition into Albania and reclaim the Albanian throne he inherited from his wife. But the journey to the rebellious kingdom is long and hard and, in the end, Luis must ask himself whether success is the same as happiness.

LOL. Guess they didn't have much success...

[Cristiano viejo]

Never heard of the conquista but look at the description in the movie they dedicated to it.

KIng Carlos II of Navarre once (XIV century) sent his brother Don Luis de Beaumont to lead a military expedition into Albania and reclaim the Albanian throne he inherited from his wife. But the journey to the rebellious kingdom is long and hard and, in the end, Luis must ask himself whether success is the same as happiness.

LOL. Guess they didn't had much success...

In fact they conquered Durres and re-established the Kingdom of Albania. I would not say they did not had much success.

[Era]

In fact they conquered Durres and re-established the Kingdom of Albania. I would not say they did not had much success.

No trace left...no success. At least they're happy, good choice

[Cristiano viejo]

No trace left...no success

So Attila was not a successful conquistador because he did not let traces?? :picard1:

[Era]

So Attila was not a successful conquistador because he did not let traces?? :picard1:

He did though.

[Kelmendasi]

So Attila was not a successful conquistador because he did not let traces?? :picard1:
But Attila did create an empire, this on the other hand was just an attempt to re-establish a kingdom

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

It's African.

[Kelmendasi]

It's African.
No silly, E-V13 is a European haplogroup

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

No silly, E-V13 is a European haplogroup

but it's most common in balkaniggers :/

[Sacrificed Ram]

now I'm using my money for other things hahha

We know how...
http://adevarul.ro/assets/adevarul.ro/MRImage/2016/01/15/5698eefe37115986c6856cbf/646x404.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

He did though.
Talk me about such traces, please.


But Attila did create an empire,
Not in Europe.


this on the other hand was just an attempt to re-establish a kingdom
It was re-established for a year and they left Durres because they did not receive their money (they were just mercenaries). Nobody got out them from there militarily.

In any case you are underestimating what a conquest is. Millions of conquests in past lasted days, months or few years and that does not mean there was not a success.

[Kelmendasi]

but it's most common in balkaniggers :/
Bitch I kill yo ass :mad:

[Era]

Talk me about such traces, please.


Not in Europe.


It was re-established for a year and they left Durres because they did not receive their money (they were just mercenaries). Nobody got out them from there militarily.

In any case you are underestimating what a conquest is. Millions of conquests in past lasted days, months or few years and that does not mean there was not a success.

But there was no impact, you had some legacy in Greece and south Italy, not in Albania, nothing at all.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Bitch I kill yo ass :mad:

dat balkan temper doe

[Cristiano viejo]

But there was no impact, you had some legacy in Greece and south Italy, not in Albania, nothing at all.

I never claimed such thing. In the other hand some Albanians are trying to claim ev13 in Spain is because them.
Ahhh, Spain, the new Kosovo...

[Kelmendasi]

I never claimed such thing. In the other hand some Albanians are trying to claim ev13 in Spain is because them.
Ahhh, Spain, the new Kosovo...
Nobody actually meant that E-V13 in Spain is from Albanians it was just a joke lol xD

[Kelmendasi]

dat balkan temper doe
I will shoot Bjork Id on the forehead :)

[Rethel]

No silly, E-V13 is a European haplogroup

From that point of view, almost every hg is European, becasue people with every hg live here.

[Kelmendasi]

From that point of view, almost every hg is European, becasue people with every hg live here.
Every mutation that occurred in Europe could be considered European. By your logic R1a/b is Asian

[Rethel]

Every mutation that occurred in Europe could be considered European. By your logic R1a/b is Asian

And this is why it is senseless classification.

[Kriptc06]

We know how...
ibage

https://media.giphy.com/media/ssLwHyT5VetOM/giphy.gif

[Ülev]

E y-dna conquered Africa and R1ethelites were banished to cold Europe, but some E folk stayed in the south, where the weather is still quite ok

http://i40.tinypic.com/14tu5xt.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/293bwup.jpg


more here ---> http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1458/white-males

[Sacrificed Ram]

People E-V13 in Iberia reaches 7000 years old, thus predates bronze age. It can be only neolithic.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Dependd on the subclade

[Coolguy1]

It does, not pigmentation wise though.

How does it affect appearance?

[Kriptc06]

E y-dna conquered Africa and R1ethelites were banished to cold Europe, but some E folk stayed in the south, where the weather is still quite ok

http://i40.tinypic.com/14tu5xt.jpg

[img]http://i44.tinypic.com/293bwuimg]


more here ---> http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1458/white-males

oh mein gott, the african R is a son of the indoeuro R-M173

[Dick]

How does it affect appearance?
Tallest ppl in europe belong to hg I. It's been discussed a zillion times.

[Ülev]

oh mein gott, the african R is a son of the indoeuro R-M173

read this site, how son could be older than his father? lol

[Kriptc06]

read this site, how son could be older than his father? lol

https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/cache/ac/c6/acc6d0cc2fa3030894e8979ca5c07a44.png

time traveler?

lol, jk

I'll read.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Ev 13 in iberia is likely these sources together mixed. Iberiomaurasian, berber, phonecian, greek and roman. Theres a chance some could be visigoth also though. but unlikely if they mixed before coming to iberia. FTDNA is down so i cant look at the ydna projects though

[Kriptc06]

Ev 13 in iberia is likely these sources together mixed. Iberiomaurasian, berber, phonecian, greek and roman. Theres a chance some could be visigoth also though. but unlikely if they mixed before coming to iberia. FTDNA is down so i cant look at the ydna projects though

V13 is not a stereotypical berber HG

V13 is son of M78

berber is the M81 branch, v13 its more like near-eastern/NA/balkanic

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/hg-e.gif

^this thing highlighted in Iberia is E-V22, a bro of V13, like V12, but not itself.

http://i.imgur.com/grTCC7t.gif

the V13 in north africa is likely to be greek migrations to egypt, that spread to there.

[Cristiano viejo]

V13 is not a stereotypical berber HG

V13 is son of M78

berber is the M81 branch, v13 its more like near-eastern/NA

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/hg-e.gif

^this thing higlighted in Iberia is E-V22

But E-M81 in Iberia predates the Berber invasion

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x3Z7kqIkmhM/TadJtHOtPmI/AAAAAAAAAig/Hefl2Qq90GI/s1600/Iberia+y-dna+-+final+haplogroup+analysis.gif


E-M81 has one of the youngest age estimates (TMRCA) of any major haplogroup, about 2000 years old. The first image shows it to follow the typical east-west pattern in Iberia almost perfectly, second only to R1b1b2 (which is perfect). So was E-M81 part of the original older stratum of y-dna in Iberia? This would fly in the face of the TMRCA age estimates for E-M81. E-M81 is so young, and at the same time identical in haplotype to North African E-M81, that we are forced to adscribe its presence in Iberia to the Arab invasion starting in 700 AD. But the maps paint a completely different picture, not only showing a geographic distribution that makes no sense at all with a historic Arab origin, but also because E-M81's notorious similarity to the repeat pattern of east-west distribution seen in most other haplogroups indicates that its distribution must have been molded by whatever events also produced the distribution patterns in all those other haplogroups. It seems extremely unlikely that E-M81 would have been born 2000 years ago in North Africa, became diffused in Iberia between 700 AD and 1200 AD, and only then something occured which rearranged Iberia's y-dna, all of it, into the now observed patterns of east and west halves. This unlikely scenario would have to be nothing less than a complete and total population rearrangement, no half measures, given that E-M81 is actually higher (much higher) in regions barely occupied by the Moors than in the stronghold of Granada, where the Moors ruled for 800 years.

It should also be noted that North Africa has 2 major haplogroups, E-M81 and J1-L222, found at about 50% and 25% respectively, from Morocco to Libya. But in Iberia, while E-M81 is present at 4% in Spain and 5% in Portugal, J1-L222 is not found at all in Portugal and is only found at 0.05% in Spain. This is also repeated in thousands of Latin American samples, where E-M81 is about 4% and J1-L222 is 0.1%. A historic recent diffusion from North Africa would obviously have spread 2 E-M81 samples for every 1 J1-L222 sample, as per their frequencies in North Africa, but instead we see that the ratio between E-M81 and J1-L222 in Iberia is 75 to 1. Likewise in south Italy the ratio is 20 to 1.

To summarize, on top of previous evidence over the last 2 years undermining the extremely young age estimate of E-M81, which consisted of the obvious east-west distribution of E-M81 in Iberia and the anomaly of J1-L222 not being found even close to proportion with the presence of E-M81 in Iberia, we can now add the fact that E-M81's distribution in Iberia isn't an oddity, but in fact the typical pattern of distribution of most Iberian haplogroups, which obviously points to deeper causes for its diffusion in the peninsula, unless Iberia's population has been completely and totally rearranged in very recent history. This is not just about Iberia, but about the theory of TMRCA itself, which as you may have guessed by now, I completely disagree with: I think all y-dna haplogroups are older than their currently estimated ages (per TMRCA) by orders of multiples.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2011/04/guest-post-by-argiedude-west-east-y-dna.html

[Rethel]

Tallest ppl in europe belong to hg I. It's been discussed a zillion times.

In one place, where they make bearly 50%.
It has to be deeper researched. Btw, if their
tallness is becasue of I-hg, than why they
were smaller than R1 East Europeans BEFORE
IE invasion on the Centrum, West, South and
the North? Why they were not the tallest?

[Kriptc06]

But E-M81 in Iberia predates the Berber invasion

[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x3Z7kqIkmhM/TadJtHOtPmI/AAAAAAAAAig/Hefl2Qq90GI/s1600/Iberia+y-dna+-+final+haplogroup+analy/IMG]



http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2011/04/guest-post-by-argiedude-west-east-y-dna.html

yes, 7K years ago there were no berbers, correct

[Rethel]

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/hg-e.gif

Nice map, but whole V13 is 4k years old. So, map is telling a fairy tale... as usuall.

[Rethel]

read this site, how son could be older than his father? lol

Can be, if dating is fictional. And it is in this case.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

V13 is not a stereotypical berber HG

V13 is son of M78

berber is the M81 branch, v13 its more like near-eastern/NA/balkanic

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/hg-e.gif

^this thing highlighted in Iberia is E-V22, a bro of V13, like V12, but not itself.

http://i.imgur.com/grTCC7t.gif

the V13 in north africa is likely to be greek migrations to egypt, that spread to there.

The map looks like ev 12 could be phonecian carthagenian. At least at first glance thats what it reminds me of.
Edit it is .i read it wih extra 0

[Kriptc06]

Nice map, but whole V13 is 4k years old. So, map is telling a fairy tale... as usuall.

so is this fary tale

https://thraxusares.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/r1b-migration-maps.jpg?w=670

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[Cristiano viejo]

yes, 7K years ago there were no berbers, correct

What I mean is that E-M81 could not arrive to Iberia with the Berber invasion, that is all.

[Kriptc06]

What I mean is that E-M81 could not arrive to Iberia with the Berber invasion, that is all.

yep, and that maps show it 4000 BCE

[Rethel]

https://thraxusares.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/r1b-migration-maps.jpg?w=670

Timing on this map is not shockingly huge,
and is not contradictonal itself. Personally
I think, that migration could be later.

In the case of V13 the same sorce which you blindly
trust tells you that 99% of a EV13 is 4000 years old,
and at the same time gives you a funny map, where
its written that this group did massivly migrate since
9000 years. Something is wrong, don;t you think? It
is really not so hard to think a little bit logically.

[Kriptc06]

Timing on this map is not shockingly huge,
and is not contradictonal itself. Personally
I think, that migration could be later.

In the case of V13 the same sorce which you blindly
trust tells you that 99% of a EV13 is 4000 years old,
and at the same time gives you a funny map, where
its written that this group did massivly migrate since
9000 years. Something is wrong, don;t you think? It
is really not so hard to think a little bit logically.

That map that show migrations path looks like its an old europeia map, dating might be a bit off, because its an old study, but the routes itself i don't think are wrong.

So if you say E-V13 is 4k years old, then its present in europe longer than R1, or I understood it wrong?

[Rethel]

So if you say E-V13 is 4k years old, then its present in europe longer than R1, or I understood it wrong?

It depends on when R1 invasion REALLY happen.
If 3000 BC, then not, if 1500 BC then yes. And
some small colonies of IEs did probably allready
exist before main invasion what is suggesting a
Villabruna-guy (insane 17k years ago), Iberian
V88 (5k BC) or lastly some old village tested in
Serbia (6k BC) - numbers are obviously wrong
but the thing is, that separated colonies could
exist before main invasion.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Timing on this map is not shockingly huge,
and is not contradictonal itself. Personally
I think, that migration could be later.

In the case of V13 the same sorce which you blindly
trust tells you that 99% of a EV13 is 4000 years old,
and at the same time gives you a funny map, where
its written that this group did massivly migrate since
9000 years. Something is wrong, don;t you think? It
is really not so hard to think a little bit logically.

Map shows it was e-v22 @9000
But turned ev13 at about 6000 which admittng seems weird

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170514/88bf71f14ed011db4294f8423ac8913b.jpg

[Rethel]

Map shows it was e-v22 @9000
But turned ev13 at about 6000 which admittng seems weird

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations

The TMRCA of European V13 is 4700–4000 years ago. Phylogenetic analysis
suggest that the European v13 spread through Europe from the Balkans in
a "rapid demographic expansion"

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#V13_origins

and all of them also descend from a later common ancestor who
carried the CTS5856 mutation. That ancestor would have lived
about 4,100 years ago, during the Bronze Age.

And this exact has 4000 years on your picture.
Rest of subclades contain less than 1% of all V13,
and they are not so old also - 3600 and 4600.

In reallity it means, that V13* lived 4000 years
ago, but they cannot and do not want admit it.

[Sacrificed Ram]

More recently, Lacan et al. (2011) announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t952879/

[Dick]

In one place, where they make bearly 50%.
It has to be deeper researched. Btw, if their
tallness is becasue of I-hg, than why they
were smaller than R1 East Europeans BEFORE
IE invasion on the Centrum, West, South and
the North? Why they were not the tallest?

Your theories are borderline schizophrenic.

It's a scientific fact from a study this year.

http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/4/4/161054


http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royopensci/4/4/161054/F5.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

[Rethel]

Your theories are borderline schizophrenic.

It's a scientific fact from a study this year.

I repeat the question, on which you did not answer:

If the tallness is becasue of I-hg, than why they
were smaller than R1 East Europeans BEFORE IE
invasion on the Centrum, West, South and the
North? Why they were not the tallest?

[Rethel]

Certainly I-hg :laugh:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ewUeSZX15CE/VPdAODOt5cI/AAAAAAAAAlY/HcMGnRC2_eY/s1600/Manute%2BBol%2B2,31%2Be%2BMuggsy%2BBogues%2B1,60.p ng

[Kriptc06]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations

The TMRCA of European V13 is 4700–4000 years ago. Phylogenetic analysis
suggest that the European v13 spread through Europe from the Balkans in
a "rapid demographic expansion"

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#V13_origins

and all of them also descend from a later common ancestor who
carried the CTS5856 mutation. That ancestor would have lived
about 4,100 years ago, during the Bronze Age.

And this exact has 4000 years on your picture.
Rest of subclades contain less than 1% of all V13,
and they are not so old also - 3600 and 4600.

In reallity it means, that V13* lived 4000 years
ago, but they cannot and do not want admit it.

quote the whole thing..

In fact, it has been calculated that E-V13 emerged from E-M78 some 7,800 years ago, when Neolithic farmers were advancing into the Balkans and the Danubian basin. Furthermore, all the modern members of E-V13 descend from a common ancestor who lived approximately 5,500 years ago, and all of them also descend from a later common ancestor who carried the CTS5856 mutation. That ancestor would have lived about 4,100 years ago, during the Bronze Age. Almost immediately afterwards, CTS5856 split into six subclades, then branched off into even more subclades in the space of a few generations. In just a few centuries, that very minor E-V13 lineage had started an expansion process that would turn it into one of Europe's most widespread paternal lineages and reach far beyond the borders of Europe itself, also spreading to the eastern edge of the Mediterranean, the Caucasus, Kurdistan, Iran, and even Siberia.

[Dick]

I repeat the question, on which you did not answer:

If the tallness is becasue of I-hg, than why they
were smaller than R1 East Europeans BEFORE IE
invasion on the Centrum, West, South and the
North? Why they were not the tallest?

According to which scientific study?



This study shows Cromagnon europeans over 180cm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120606075323.htm

https://images.sciencedaily.com/2012/06/120606075323_1_900x600.jpg

[Rethel]

quote the whole thing..

Doesn't matter, becasue they all died out.
Map is fictional anyway, becasue there is
none V13 digged and dated from that so
called "time", and map is older than any
dating of that hg, based simply on empty
suppostotions. Check when the map was
made, and what was really known about
the hg back then, and how many people
were found from that period with that hg.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

[Rethel]

According to which scientific study?
This study shows Cromagnon europeans over 180cm

It is not known, if those Cros were I, and I was talking about the time before IE invasion.
When you was running from tigers and wolfs, then only those lived long enaugh to left
their remains, who was faster than these animals, so logically, only the tallest could
run and live. But after this enviroment was gone, you were smaller than East Europeans.

WHY? If the tall hight would be bing with your hg, you should be tall always.
Negros do not have I, but are tall also. R1 Eastern Europeans were also tallest
than you at the time, when you were not influenced by us, So why?

Btw, ALL HOMO-SAPIENS ARE CROMAGNONIANS, also Eastern European R1.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Cro-Magnon_migration.gif/300px-Cro-Magnon_migration.gif

[Dick]

It is not known, if those Cros were I, and I was talking about the time before IE invasion.
When you was running from tigers and wolfs, then only those lived long enaugh to left
their remains, who was faster than these animals, so logically, only the tallest could
run and live. But after this enviroment was gone, you were smaller than East Europeans.

WHY? If the tall hight would be bing with your hg, you should be tall always.
Negros do not have I, but are tall also. R1 Eastern Europeans were also tallest
than you at the time, when you were not influenced by us, So why?

I repeat the question, on which you did not answer:


According to which scientific study? Either post scientific studies or don't quote me with your crazy theories.

[Rethel]

I repeat the question, on which you did not answer:
According to which scientific study? Either post scientific studies or don't quote me with your crazy theories.

What? That EEs where taller than rest of Europe?
I don;t remember, but it was so many times on that
forum, that you should not ask about such thing.

If you are really intereted in source,
ask Litvin, he was often writing about it.

And as I said: all people are Cromagnonians,
so, it is not evidence, that they were tall.

[Dick]

http://thegeneticatlas.com/I.htm


I (M170) The diagnostic marker of Cro-Magnon expansion in Paleolithic Europe

[Rethel]

It is based only on probability.

Btw, local C people, E people on the south and eastern R people
(who made a half of Europe back then) were also Cromagnonians,
or they werent according to you? :coffee:

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I would like to hear theories about my Y-DNA as well :(

[Jana]

I would like to hear theories about my Y-DNA as well :(
As far as I know it is not Celtiberian (like R1b-DF27) but Insular Celtic marker (from British Isles). Have there been any population movements from Britain to regions of your ancestry in history ?
It can be native ofcourse too (northern Iberia has a bit of that haplogroup), but you'd need to do a deep subclade testing for that.

[Rethel]

I would like to hear theories about my Y-DNA as well :(

There is no much need for theories, becasue almost everything is known.
In R1 case most "theories" are bunch of stupid guesses which always are
failing. Fantasy here isnt good herlper, especially when contradicts facts.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

As far as I know it is not Celtiberian (like R1b-DF27) but Insular Celtic marker (from British Isles). Have there been any population movements from Britain to regions of your ancestry in history ?
It can be native ofcourse too (northern Iberia has a bit of that haplogroup), but you'd need to do a deep subclade testing for that.

Yes, it peaks in the British Isles. There has been British presence in Portugal for centuries but I have no clue about their presence in the region of my ancestors.

[Jana]

Yes, it peaks in the British Isles. There has been British presence in Portugal for centuries but I have no clue about their presence in the region of my ancestors.
It can be anything :) A recent British ancestor you don't know of, or more likely ancient migration/presence in the region. With furter testing you can see is your sub-branch Iberian or British related.

Do you score any British/Irish on 23andme, which is more than average for Portugese ? They go back only 500 years, so if it was recent ancestor you would have autosomal impact too. I know all Iberians score British/Irish, but if you score higher than average that would be interesting.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It can be anything :) A recent British ancestor you don't know of, or more likely ancient migration/presence in the region. With furter testing you can see is your sub-branch Iberian or British related.

Do you score any British/Irish on 23andme, which is more than average for Portugese ? They go back only 500 years, so if it was recent ancestor you would have autosomal impact too. I know all Iberians score British/Irish, but if you score higher than average that would be interesting.

I score 18% Northwestern European on 23andme from which 6.3% is British & Irish. It is slightly above Iberian average when it comes to British ancestry.

[Rethel]

If you want to know the turth, you must make paper
work and later confirm your hg. There is no other way.

[Kriptc06]

Another finding:

"There are at least three distinct sources of E-V13 in Italy. The first would be the Bronze Age Italic tribes from Central Europe, who in all logic would have possessed at least some E-V13 lineages before they invaded the Italian peninsula. Proto-Italics would have been a predominantly R1b-U152 tribe, but also carried a minority of E-V13, G2a-L140 (L13, L1264 and Z1816 subclades) and J2a1-L70 (PF5456 and Z2177 subclades). The second would be the ancient Greeks, who heavily colonized southern Italy from the 9th century BCE until the Roman conquest in the 3rd century BCE. The third are the Goths. As a Germanic tribe they might have carried a small percentage of E-V13. But that percentage very certainly increased after spending several centuries in Central and Southeast Europe and assimilating Proto-Slavs and Balkanic people before invading Italy. The Goths settled over all the Italian peninsula. They would have brought typically Germanic lineages like I1 and R1b-U106, but also the Proto-Slavic R1a-CTS1211, which is now found uniformly in 1 to 2% of the population. Since R1a-CTS1211 is not originally Germanic, it is likely that the Goths also brought a small but noticeable percentage of assimilated lineages from the Balkans, including E-V13 and J2b1 (I2a1b-CTS10228 would have come later from the East Slavic migrations from Ukraine during the Early Middle Ages, hence its absence from Italy, apart from a few coastal areas facing the Adriatic Sea)." quote:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[Dick]

It can be anything :) A recent British ancestor you don't know of, or more likely ancient migration/presence in the region. With furter testing you can see is your sub-branch Iberian or British related.

Do you score any British/Irish on 23andme, which is more than average for Portugese ? They go back only 500 years, so if it was recent ancestor you would have autosomal impact too. I know all Iberians score British/Irish, but if you score higher than average that would be interesting.

Only a "Big Y" test at ftdna will reveal concrete answers for him.

[Laberia]

In fact they conquered Durres and re-established the Kingdom of Albania. I would not say they did not had much success.

The Spaniards were running like Speedy Gonzales in front of French army. Just the nephew of Scanderbeg, Konstandin with 500 Albanians stopped this "strategic retreat" of the Spaniards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg%27s_Italian_expedition

[Laberia]

......

[Laberia]

I never claimed such thing. In the other hand some Albanians are trying to claim ev13 in Spain is because them.
Ahhh, Spain, the new Kosovo...

The Roman legions full with Illyrians who ruled the neanderthaloid Spaniards. The Albanian mercenaries during the middle, you know very well this. There was a thread in Taxonomy, unfortunately deleted, about a Spanish soccer player with surname Balliu. He is descendant of this Albanian mercenaries.

[Laberia]

From that point of view, almost every hg is European, becasue people with every hg live here.

Yep, even your kind who arrived in Europe from Kamtchatka now are considered Europeans.

[Laberia]

Lol, Greek coping. Albanians built Greece and are the oldest E-V13. It's not about spreading civilization it's about spreading E-V13. Greece is a Y-DNA toilet for Barbarian men to release their genes in to.

Yes my friend, but read how Albanians colonized Greece first:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._G._L._Hammond
One of his books was:
Migrations and invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas (1976)
From the chapter about the Ethnogenesis of the Albanians, whe the author describe the invasion of Greece from Albanians:
...and it sent streams of migrants into most parts of the Greek peninsula and some of the Aegean islands. To the settled peoples they were a terror. “Deus misit hanc pestem," wrote the author of the Gesta Dei per Francos 2.293. They came, like a plague of locusts, in huge numbers ("in tanta quantitate numerosa") and in 1325 they ravaged and destroyed everything in Thessaly outside the fortified centres ("ornnia quae erant extra castra"). When they wanted to leave Thessaly and go elsewhere, many others appeared with their wives and children ("multicum uxoribus et filiis") and their combined forces proceeded to wreck other parts of Thessaly.

P. S.
Thessaly was called Grande Wlachia, because was inhabited by vlachs.

[Wrong]

It could be, if the Goths picked up some EV13 in the Gheginian highlands, possibly some J2b2 aswell. About 15% of the J2 in Italy is J2b2.

[Cristiano viejo]

The Spaniards were running like Speedy Gonzales in front of French army. Just the nephew of Scanderbeg, Konstandin with 500 Albanians stopped this "strategic retreat" of the Spaniards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg%27s_Italian_expedition
Dont talk me about Skanderberg... that vassal of Alfonso V de Aragón...


The Roman legions full with Illyrians who ruled the neanderthaloid Spaniards. The Albanian mercenaries during the middle, you know very well this. There was a thread in Taxonomy, unfortunately deleted, about a Spanish soccer player with surname Balliu. He is descendant of this Albanian mercenaries.

:lol:

[Kelmendasi]

Dont talk me about Skanderberg... that vassal of Alfonso V de Aragón...



:lol:
He wasn't a vassal AFAIK, but you can't deny that he was a badass, I mean look at the Siege of Kruja, about 10,000 Albanians beat 100,000 Ottomans lol xD

[Laberia]

Dont talk me about Skanderberg... that vassal of Alfonso V de Aragón...



:lol:

Of course you don't want me to talk about Scanderbeg in Italy because it's painful for you. And excuse me, do you really believe in this story of vassalage of Scanderbeg?

[Cristiano viejo]

He wasn't a vassal AFAIK, but you can't deny that he was a badass, I mean look at the Siege of Kruja, about 10,000 Albanians beat 100,000 Ottomans lol xD
He was literally his vassal. The fact he asked his help made him officially his vassal.
Officially, not just because I am saying it.

[Kelmendasi]

He was literally his vassal. The fact he asked his help made him officially his vassal.
Officially, not just because I am saying it.
Still though, nobody helped him majorly in the end a lot stabbed him in the back

[Cristiano viejo]

Of course you don't want me to talk about Scanderbeg in Italy because it's painful for you.
I dont know about what you are talking.


And excuse me, do you really believe in this story of vassalage of Scanderbeg?

Not what I believe but historical facts.


The Treaty of Gaeta was a political treaty stipulated in Gaeta on March 26, 1451, between Alfonso V for the Kingdom of Naples and Stefan, Bishop of Krujë, and Nikollë de Berguçi, ambassadors of Skanderbeg. In the treaty Skanderbeg would recognize himself a vassal of the Kingdom of Naples, and in return he would have the Kingdom's protection from the Ottoman Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Gaeta

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Albanian presence in Iberia was one of the most silly theories I have ever heard lately even though I shouldn't really be surprised because according to certain members Albanian people conquered Europe once upon a time. It is outstanding.

There is at least two Albanian members here who scored Iberian ancestry so go figure which people were really present in which region :)

[Cristiano viejo]

Albanian presence in Iberia was one of the most silly theories I have ever heard lately even though I shouldn't really be surprised because according to certain members Albanian people conquered Europe once upon a time. It is outstanding.

There is at least two Albanian members here who scored Iberian ancestry so go figure which people were really present in which region :)

I am afraid Albanians reclaiming Spain and Portugal as they do in Kosovo and probably other parts of Serbia, parts of Greece, Macedonia...

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I am afraid Albanians reclaiming Spain and Portugal as they do in Kosovo and probably other parts of Serbia, parts of Greece, Macedonia...

They are coming for us, watch out.

http://i.imgur.com/Lbtybf2.jpg

Imagine if Iberian people start claiming every place they have step a foot on, we have to reclaim nearly the entire world :rolleyes:

[Cristiano viejo]

They are coming for us, watch out.

http://i.imgur.com/Lbtybf2.jpg

Imagine if Iberian people start claiming every place they have step a foot on, we have to reclaim nearly the entire world :rolleyes:

loooooool what a map :scared::scared::scared:
Well, it seems Castilla y León still is free of them hehe

[Laberia]

He was literally his vassal. The fact he asked his help made him officially his vassal.
Officially, not just because I am saying it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Fern%C3%A1ndez_de_Heredia

The Navarese Company.
The Knights of St John were no strangers in the Morea. Like the Templars and the Teutonic Knights, they had received four fiefs there at the time of the Conquest, and the possessions of the Templars had passed to them on the dissolution of that order in 131 2. On the roll of 1364, we find two castles belonging to them ; a little earlier, Innocent VI. had suggested that they should move from Rhodes, which had been their headquarters since 1309, to the Peloponnese, and defend it against the Turks. Their grand-master at this time was Juan Fernandez de Heredia, a noble and adventurous Spaniard, who had won the favour of Innocent VI., had become " the right arm of the Avignon papacy," had fought against the Black Prince at Poitiers, and had lately escorted Gregory XI. to Rome, when that pontiff, in obedience to St Catherine of Siena, ended the "Babylonish captivity" and returned to the widowed city. The barons, notably the Venetian Archbishop of Patras, welcomed the advent of so distinguished a soldier, who seemed a heaven-sent defender of their threatened land. A new and vigorous race of invaders had now appeared to contest the country with the remnant of the Franks. Since the collapse of the Despotat of Epiros, and the establishment of two Albanian chieftains on its ruins, the north of Achaia had been menaced by an Albanian immigration, as well as by Turkish raids. The very year after the Knights had acquired the principality, one of those chieftains, Ghin (or John) Boua Spata, who had already seized the possessions of the rival clan of Liosa at Arta upon the death of its chief by the plague, and had thus united iEtolia and Akarnania in his own person, captured Lepanto, and thus destroyed the last vestige of Angevin rule on the continent of Greece. For over eighty years the French lilies had waved over the triple fortifications of that celebrated castle ; it had been part of the dowry which Philip of Taranto had received in 1294 with the unhappy Thamar ; now it had gone, and an Albanian chieftain held one of the keys of the Corinthian Gulf. Heredia judged that this insult must be avenged ; he crossed the gulf, and recaptured Lepanto. But his imprisonment by the Black Prince after the battle of Poitiers had not taught him prudence ; he marched rashly into the heart of the enemy's country, intending to take Arta, was defeated by the Albanians, and brought as a prisoner to Spata. The chieftain was "a man of thought and action, in all things distinguished, and of striking beauty " ; but, with all these qualities, he lacked generosity, and, without hesitation, he sold his noble captive to the Turks. In spite of the efforts of the Knights, assisted by the money of the Archbishop of Patras, to retain the important position of Lepanto, it fell again into the possession of the redoubtable Spata.

Source:
"The Latins in the Levant, a history of Frankish Greece (1204-1566)" (https://archive.org/stream/latinsinlevanta00millgoog/latinsinlevanta00millgoog_djvu.txt)

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

loooooool what a map :scared::scared::scared:
Well, it seems Castilla y León still is free of them hehe

They have conquered Madrid and Algarve though xD Now they can go to Madrid shopping and enjoy some beach holidays in Algarve.

[Cristiano viejo]

They have conquered Madrid and Algarve though xD Now they can go to Madrid shopping and enjoy some beach holidays in Algarve.

Mejor los mandamos a la parte de Marruecos que también han conquistado :D

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

http://s8.favim.com/mini/151017/albania-amazing-artist-celeb-Favim.com-3441608.jpg

Aquí podemos ver a Laberia asistiendo a un partido en San Bernabéu xD La verdadera raza maestra iliria.

http://gazetasheshi.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/shqip.jpg

Laberia con sus amigos hardcore, paseando por las calles de Madrid. Note su felicidad después de conquistar Iberia. ¡Qué notable logro añadir a todos los otros innumerables que los albaneses han hecho.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KJlQ6xkn7tQ/R3uno6ZlngI/AAAAAAAAAig/wRBaxjgOg6Q/s400/yeywq3isl3msfm4vimkqany8_400.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

They are coming for us, watch out.

[MG]http://i.imgur.com/Lbtybf2.jpg[/IMG]

Imagine if Iberian people start claiming every place they have step a foot on, we have to reclaim nearly the entire world :rolleyes:
Did you actually manage to do that on eu4? Because if so your a legend, Albania is one of the hardest if not the hardest nation to play as in eu4

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Did you actually manage to do that on eu4? Because if so your a legend, Albania is one of the hardest if not the hardest nation to play as in eu4

Nah man, I just googled it. I am not even aware of which game is that.

[Kelmendasi]

Nah man, I just googled it. I am not even aware of which game is that.
Oh I was gonna say lol that your a god if you accomplished that kek. It's called Europa Universalis 4 and it's a grand strategy game where you basically expand your country but it is very historical as well

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Oh I was gonna say lol that your a god if you accomplished that kek. It's called Europa Universalis 4 and it's a grand strategy game where you basically expand your country but it is very historical as well

Sounds like my type of game even though I haven't been really into video games for nearly a decade. Last time I played a Real Strategy Game, Age of Mythology was trendy :lol:

[Laberia]

Nah man, I just googled it. I am not even aware of which game is that.
Why i am not surprised? It's typical Vierato style. You don't know nothing, just copy paste and later continue to laugh like retard about something that you don't understand.

[Kelmendasi]

Sounds like my type of game even though I haven't been really into video games for nearly a decade. Last time I played a Real Strategy Game, Age of Mythology was trendy :lol:
It's a great game but there are tons of Dlc which are basically needed if you want to play the game properly, although when Steam goes on sale it becomes pretty cheap including Dlc

[Laberia]

They have conquered Madrid and Algarve though xD Now they can go to Madrid shopping and enjoy some beach holidays in Algarve.

Speedy Gonzales, what's happened with Juan Fernandez de Heredia?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Why i am not surprised? It's typical Vierato style. You don't know nothing, just copy paste and later continue to laugh like retard about something that you don't understand.

Lack of knowledge of video games is not something I regret. At least I have the modesty to admit I don't know it instead of repeatedly pretend I know something I don't, something in which you're an expert :lol: Being yourself the copy\paste King of TA makes it even more hysterically funny to see you complaining.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Speedy Gonzales, what's happened with Juan Fernandez de Heredia?

I have no idea who he was. Contrary to Albanian history which evolves only around one single person (Skanderberg) Iberian history has thousands of relevant and historically important people, you clearly are not expecting me to know all of them, right? He wasn't even Portuguese with that name, I am assuming.

[Laberia]

I have no idea who he was. Contrary to Albanian history which evolves only around one single person (Skanderberg) Iberian history has thousands of relevant and historically important people, you clearly are not expecting me to know all of them, right? He wasn't even Portuguese with that name, I am assuming.

Yep, he was a Spaniard, the right hand of Pope. But i asked you because you are the right hand of viejo, he use you as a cannon fodder.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yep, he was a Spaniard, the right hand of Pope. But i asked you because you are the right hand of viejo, he use you as a cannon fodder.

And whats up with him? :noidea:
As Viriato has said you, millions of important Iberians along the history who played an important role here and there.
First time I heard about that man. Was he important according you? well, congratulations.

[Laberia]

And whats up with him? :noidea:
As Viriato has said you, millions of important Iberians along the history who played an important role here and there.
First time I heard about that man. Was he important according you? well, congratulations.

No problem dude. Read it again if you don't understand. This is real history, not a movie:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Fern%C3%A1ndez_de_Heredia

The Navarese Company.
The Knights of St John were no strangers in the Morea. Like the Templars and the Teutonic Knights, they had received four fiefs there at the time of the Conquest, and the possessions of the Templars had passed to them on the dissolution of that order in 131 2. On the roll of 1364, we find two castles belonging to them ; a little earlier, Innocent VI. had suggested that they should move from Rhodes, which had been their headquarters since 1309, to the Peloponnese, and defend it against the Turks. Their grand-master at this time was Juan Fernandez de Heredia, a noble and adventurous Spaniard, who had won the favour of Innocent VI., had become " the right arm of the Avignon papacy," had fought against the Black Prince at Poitiers, and had lately escorted Gregory XI. to Rome, when that pontiff, in obedience to St Catherine of Siena, ended the "Babylonish captivity" and returned to the widowed city. The barons, notably the Venetian Archbishop of Patras, welcomed the advent of so distinguished a soldier, who seemed a heaven-sent defender of their threatened land. A new and vigorous race of invaders had now appeared to contest the country with the remnant of the Franks. Since the collapse of the Despotat of Epiros, and the establishment of two Albanian chieftains on its ruins, the north of Achaia had been menaced by an Albanian immigration, as well as by Turkish raids. The very year after the Knights had acquired the principality, one of those chieftains, Ghin (or John) Boua Spata, who had already seized the possessions of the rival clan of Liosa at Arta upon the death of its chief by the plague, and had thus united iEtolia and Akarnania in his own person, captured Lepanto, and thus destroyed the last vestige of Angevin rule on the continent of Greece. For over eighty years the French lilies had waved over the triple fortifications of that celebrated castle ; it had been part of the dowry which Philip of Taranto had received in 1294 with the unhappy Thamar ; now it had gone, and an Albanian chieftain held one of the keys of the Corinthian Gulf. Heredia judged that this insult must be avenged ; he crossed the gulf, and recaptured Lepanto. But his imprisonment by the Black Prince after the battle of Poitiers had not taught him prudence ; he marched rashly into the heart of the enemy's country, intending to take Arta, was defeated by the Albanians, and brought as a prisoner to Spata. The chieftain was "a man of thought and action, in all things distinguished, and of striking beauty " ; but, with all these qualities, he lacked generosity, and, without hesitation, he sold his noble captive to the Turks. In spite of the efforts of the Knights, assisted by the money of the Archbishop of Patras, to retain the important position of Lepanto, it fell again into the possession of the redoubtable Spata.

Source:
"The Latins in the Levant, a history of Frankish Greece (1204-1566)" (https://archive.org/stream/latinsinlevanta00millgoog/latinsinlevanta00millgoog_djvu.txt)

[Cristiano viejo]

No problem dude. Read it again if you don't understand. This is real history, not a movie:

ok. Now what?

[firemonkey]

I am E-BY5219 according to FTDNA which is downstream from E-V13 and E-L17. I noticed yesterday when doing a google search that a E-BY5219 belongs to the Iberian peninsula project at FTDNA.

[Sekarotuinen]

They are coming for us, watch out.

http://i.imgur.com/Lbtybf2.jpg

Imagine if Iberian people start claiming every place they have step a foot on, we have to reclaim nearly the entire world :rolleyes:
Lol, my brother plays that game. He had me play with him a few times. It's called Europa something, right?

[Kriptc06]

I am E-BY5219 according to FTDNA which is downstream from E-V13 and E-L17. I noticed yesterday when doing a google search that a E-BY5219 belongs to the Iberian peninsula project at FTDNA.

the Yseq went further than the ftdna.

take a look here, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5018/

[Kriptc06]

Lol, my brother plays that game. He had me play with him a few times. It's called Europa something, right?

Europa Universalis

[Megadorian]

Albanian history 101


http://i68.tinypic.com/9zq51u.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

Albanian history 101


[IM]http://i68.tinypic.com/9zq51u.jpg[/IMG]
Yes. Jesus was Albanian :laugh:

[Kriptc06]

my 25 markers, 37 soon
http://i.imgur.com/qkwJAGy.jpg

All my matches at Y25 have either germanic or slav surnames, I dont see mine nor any other iberian ones.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Not likely. Visigoths originate from scandanavia

[Kriptc06]

Not likely. Visigoths originate from scandanavia

read the original post, im just wondering, they "parked" in the balkans for a long time. and its silly to assume a population would be of a single haplogroup.

[Geni]

Could the Iberian V13 have been brought by the migrating barbarians also known as the visigoths?
They were in the balkans for some time and went on a pillaging route until they settled in the Iberian peninsula (goths, that split into visigoths and ostrogoths)

http://www.worldology.com/Europe/images/decline_rome_visigoths.jpg


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/df/4d/a5/df4da5a22554af3272ef1f3a0674242b.jpg

btw, of course they brought also other Y haplos with them, but lets focus on E-V13, being most prevalent in the balkans; It's known that the goths mixed with local populations where they go.


Could it be, or not.
Discuss

This is typic albanian Kosovar....Cristijano Viejo ...the geg highlander...:lol:

[Kriptc06]

This is typic albanian Kosovar....Cristijano Viejo ...the geg highlander...:lol:

my idea is that the goths assimilated some V13, J and other clades into their horde, after all they "parked" in the balkans for some time. I'm not claiming to be true, I'm just portraying one of the possibilities, you would not stay in a place for a long time without interacting with locals. In no way I'm saying all goths were V13, or that V13 born goth..

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

read the original post, im just wondering, they "parked" in the balkans for a long time. and its silly to assume a population would be of a single haplogroup.I know but its unlikely to me still.they were probably more likely I and r1b. There was likely already e-m35 pre existing from old greek populations prior or roman colonization or neolthic expansion. Maybe even phonecian ot carthagenian. Possible maybe some may even be from Ummayad dynasty anatolians.

[Kriptc06]

I know but its unlikely to me still.they were probably more likely I and r1b. There was likely already e-m35 pre existing from old greek populations prior or roman colonization or neolthic expansion. Maybe even phonecian ot carthagenian

I dont think its unlikely at all, to assimilate locals into their horde. And not all M35 are V13. Phoenicians were other clades of E

[Cristiano viejo]

This is typic albanian Kosovar....Cristijano Viejo ...the geg highlander...:lol:

No, sorry, I am white.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I dont think its unlikely at all, to assimilate locals into their horde. And not all M35 are V13. Phoenicians were other clades of EUnlikely to me. Maybe some e clades are visigoths but I dont see visigoths being very E mixed.

[Kriptc06]

Unlikely to me. Maybe some e clades are visigoths but I dont see visigoths being very E mixed.

what you mean E mixed?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

what you mean E mixed?Haplogroup e-m35

[Cristiano viejo]

what you mean E mixed?

That he does not see Visigoths mixing with e1b1 people.

[Geni]

White look better because the ultimate nordic group I1 is this in gegnia and spain

5,5% in Kosovo
and 1,5 % in Spain...so...:coffee:

[Kriptc06]

Haplogroup e-m35


That he does not see Visigoths mixing with e1b1 people.

well, ok, but they were there for some time, they could have done, but I cannot prove, I just can construct and idea, which I still hold.
in spite of that, there are some lost V13 bros in sweden anyway, Dont ask me how they got there lol

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

well, ok, but they were there for some time, they could have done, but I cannot prove, I just can construct and idea, which I still hold.
in spite of that, there are some lost V13 bros in sweden anyway, Dont ask me how they got there lolRomans

[Kriptc06]

Romans

for fun, here a map of sweden with all the Es there, they are most exclusively (V13).
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplomap&lang=en&typ_sel=Y&haplo_level=1&database=shd&haplo_sel=E

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Götaland

And they are hardly any Es. Theres only a hotspot of them in a small area here for e1b1b

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170819/f77b1b61dadc1991b0ce8a3a5fbae1f0.jpg

[Kriptc06]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Götaland

And they are hardly any Es. Theres only a hotspot of them in a small area here for e1b1b

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170819/f77b1b61dadc1991b0ce8a3a5fbaeMG]

The first link I sent you is more precise, they are all E1b1b, almost all V13 as I spotted
Also this link, this map is made using people tested at ftdna, and that participate in some swedish project.
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplomap&lang=en&typ_sel=Y&haplo_level=1&database=ftdna&haplo_sel=E

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

The first link I sent you is more precise, they are all E1b1b, almost all V13 as I spotted
Also this link, this map is made using people tested at ftdna, and that participate in some swedish project.
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplomap&lang=en&typ_sel=Y&haplo_level=1&database=ftdna&haplo_sel=EIts the same drawing. It didnt make a difference

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Nvm it is different. Do any e haplogroups in sweden match with people in spain in FTDNA

[Köstebek]

If the V13 there match with central euros more than Balkans, then it can be

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I see alot of spain ev12 and menas sharing e-L117 with them. And many more euros who have it too
E-M35 FTDNA PROJECT

E-L542 is swedish
Thats the only swedish E in that project

You cant look at the most distant ancestor on the kit for swedish dna ftdna project.

[Kriptc06]

I see alot of spain ev12 and menas sharing e-L117 with them. And many more euros who have it too
E-M35 FTDNA PROJECT

E-L542 is swedish
Thats the only swedish E in that project

You cant look at the most distant ancestor on the kit for swedish dna ftdna project.

L542 is E-V13* my Polish match is that one.

E-L117 is the same as M35, its equivalent,
People that only test Y STRs and do not proceed to SNP is predicted as such. Again, M35/L117 is 30K + years old.

E-V12 is a distant cousin of V13 (~9 to 10k years), they are very far apart. so much so, that I was predicted by nevgen as V13 with only 12 markers, with no sign of confusion with V12

[Kriptc06]

Nvm it is different. Do any e haplogroups in sweden match with people in spain in FTDNA

No idea, I do not participate in Spanish projects, in Portugal one as I saw, there are very Few V13, mine looks unique, in fact I dont even have any portuguese surnamed match.

Ill buy the V13 SNP pack, its the only option I have right now. but I'm curious for my Y37.

[Cristiano viejo]

Romans

Romans in Sweden? another of your nonsensical theories? :bored:

[Loki]

I think a higher probability that it is indigenous Neolithic remnants.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Romans in Sweden? another of your nonsensical theories? :bored:Whats your haplogroup though?

[Cristiano viejo]

Whats your haplogroup though?
What does my haplogroup have to do with ev13, Romans and Sweden?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

What does my haplogroup have to do with ev13, Romans and Sweden?What is it? I dont even know what it is.

[Cristiano viejo]

What is it? I dont even know what it is.

You need to explain how Romans carried the haplogroup ev13 to Sweden

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

You need to explain how Romans carried the haplogroup ev13 to SwedenIm guessing you are E-v13

[Kelmendasi]

I think a higher probability that it is indigenous Neolithic remnants.
Yh, Neolithic farmers weren't confined only to the Balkans(although V13 does seem to have origin from the Balkans due to the father clade of V13 being found in ancient Croatia/Dalmatia but certain clades did evolve out of the Balkans) lol they were all over Europe for example the clade of E-V13 called Z16664 seems to have no connection to the Balkans but seems to have origin from Neolithic farmers who lived around the Atlantic and western Europe and was later expanded via the Bell beakers. The V13 in Scandinavia could just be due to the Neolithic cultures that lived there like the Gokhem people or Bronze age expansions from central Europe

[Kriptc06]

Just figured out my granddad surname is of Flemish origin, that settled in the Azores. I got match in the Netherlands, that may be it. I cant wait for My Y37.

[Ülev]

up?

[Tauromachos]

Yes, many of them were EV13

Any Sources?

Do we have any samples from Goths to see?

I don't associate E V13 much with Northern people.

It mutated clearly out of e1b1b so finally it is Neolithic in origin

[Aren]

You need to explain how Romans carried the haplogroup ev13 to Sweden

Romans > Germany/England > Scandinavia.

[DarknessWin]

Any Sources?

Do we have any samples from Goths to see?

I don't associate E V13 much with Northern people.

It mutated clearly out of e1b1b so finally it is Neolithic in origin

https://i.imgur.com/4XZGCpq.png

[Tauromachos]

https://i.imgur.com/4XZGCpq.png




1) There is 0 evidence that Dorians came from Central Europe
2)Slavs are very unlikely to have carried E V13
The South Slavs who have E V13 got this likely from Pre Slavic native people living in the Balkan peninsular
3) The Goth thing can be true or not
Here my question stands again
What are the haplogroups of Goths and their genetics ?
Do we know?
Do we have samples from ancient Goths to tell?

[DarknessWin]

1) There is 0 evidence that Dorians came from Central Europe
2)Slavs are very unlikely to have carried E V13
The South Slavs who have E V13 got this likely from Pre Slavic native people living in the Balkan peninsular
3) The Goth thing can be true or not
Here my question stands again
What are the haplogroups of Goths and their genetics ?
Do we know?
Do we have samples from ancient Goths to tell?

Dont know but they probably had R1a,R1b,EV13 as haplogroups

[Tauromachos]

Dont know but they probably had R1a,R1b,EV13 as haplogroups

Ok possible that they had EV13

EV13 exists in Scandinavian countries but its low i think well they might have picked some additional up during their traveling routes
as the OP said.

The question is how much EV13 do they have compared to what exists in Iberia?

If it is low compared to that in Iberia than its likely that E V13 existed in Iberia before Goths arrived.

[Kriptc06]

I turned out as Z5018-Z16242 prevalent in England, I either have a very distant english ancestor (500 years ago) or it's a shared with iberians.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16242/
(I'm negative Z2162), Y20431 not tested.

[Tauromachos]

I turned out as Z5018-Z16242 prevalent in England, I either have a very distant english ancestor (500 years ago) or it's a shared with iberians.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16242/
(I'm negative Z2162), Y20431 not tested.

Ok this is interesting

[Kriptc06]

Ok this is interesting
thanks :D

Ok possible that they had EV13

EV13 exists in Scandinavian countries but its low i think well they might have picked some additional up during their traveling routes
as the OP said.

The question is how much EV13 do they have compared to what exists in Iberia?

If it is low compared to that in Iberia than its likely that E V13 existed in Iberia before Goths arrived.

the maps I posted are not showing anymore but they were like this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Visigoth_migrations.jpg/300px-Visigoth_migrations.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/amazingbibletimeline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/vandals-in-gaul-and-spain.png?ssl=1

[Tauromachos]

thanks :D


the maps I posted are not showing anymore but they were like this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Visigoth_migrations.jpg/300px-Visigoth_migrations.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/amazingbibletimeline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/vandals-in-gaul-and-spain.png?ssl=1

Ok obviously there was Gothic presence in Spain thats even a well established fact and their genetic legacy is also there

The question is would they be the main source of E V 13 in Spain?

They might have picked some of this up in case they mixed with some people in South East Europe

The question is how much?

How much EV 13 does Spain have?

Does it peak more in the Areas where Gothic presence,influence was stronger?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/ee61fd79365e4f71be934dd9a84cdc3c.jpg

[Ülev]

thanks :D


the maps I posted are not showing anymore but they were like this

...

you posted those maps wrong - look at your signature!
do it like that
https://s8.postimg.cc/dp2d57gat/300px-_Visigoth_migrations.jpg









(bump)

[Cristiano viejo]

Romans > Germany/England > Scandinavia.

That makes no sense.

[Kriptc06]

you posted those maps wrong - look at your signature!
do it like that
https://s8.postimg.cc/dp2d57gat/300px-_Visigoth_migrations.jpg









(bump)

;) that's right

but you forgot to flip East-West axis, fixed:

https://i.imgur.com/FtiR4Mt.png

[Kriptc06]

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/ee61fd79365e4f71be934dd9a84cdc3c.jpg

that map is supposed to be about its origins, V13 seems to be formed 7k years ago, visigoths are a lot recent, around year 300-400 that we are talking, see a discrepancy here? of 6 thousand+ years?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

[Ülev]

what about "bump"? :rolleyes:

[Voskos]

Nope. Its negroid.

[Dick]

The Visigoth sample from this year is E-v13

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Nope. Its negroid.

How is E-V13 negroid? Are you implying that half of Greece has a negroid haplogroup?

[Voskos]

E-V13 is negroid in origin. Its prevalence in Greece doesn't exceed 30%.

[Freeroostah]

It could be since Visigoths were originally Thracian Goths

[Ayetooey]

Some of it comes from the Balkans; but I am sure the vast majority of it comes from Black Africans who migrated north in ancient times. E-v13 has African origin regardless of where in Europe it is situated.

[Dick]

Here is E-v13 Visigoth kit BA8274765. What’s funny is that He plots same spot as me on k15

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Some of it comes from the Balkans; but I am sure the vast majority of it comes from Black Africans who migrated north in ancient times. E-v13 has African origin regardless of where in Europe it is situated.

And you are sure of that based on what? E-V13 is virtually non-existent among Berbers, they are overwhelmingly E-M81. If anything the majority of E-V13 in Iberia came from Greek and Phoenician colonies in the peninsula and with the Romanisation of the peninsula. Your theory makes little to nonsense.

[Pubiczar]

And you are sure of that based on what? E-V13 is virtually non-existent among Berbers, they are overwhelmingly E-M81. If anything the majority of E-V13 in Iberia came from Greek and Phoenician colonies in the peninsula and with the Romanisation of the peninsula. Your theory makes little to nonsense.

Are you really trying debating serious staff with these clowns here?
If your interested in serious staff join Eupedia or Anthrogenica...
The Apricity became notoriously trollish forum.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

E-V13 is negroid in origin. Its prevalence in Greece doesn't exceed 30%.

Doesn't exceed, as if it was insignificant, lol. You are aware that it is the most common haplogroup in Greece along with J2, right?

[Voskos]

Not sure why you keep mentioning Greece. E is indeed of african origin and most Greeks who carry it are aware of their african roots.

[Pubiczar]

Not sure why you keep mentioning Greece. E is indeed of african origin and most Greeks who carry it are aware of their african roots.

Why are you changing the subject now from E-V13 to E?
We talk about E-V13 not about E which is around 65K old!
If we go that far in the past, all haplogroups at the end descend from a man that came from Africa!

[Voskos]

Ultimately, yes, we're all africans. Though E-V13 is more recent, and besides, why did you get offended? Its just 2% of your DNA.

[Bosniensis]

R1b is Visigothic, EV13 in Iberia isn't Celtic but from Greek colonists.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Not sure why you keep mentioning Greece. E is indeed of african origin and most Greeks who carry it are aware of their african roots.

You can't grasp simple concepts it seems. You said that E-V13 is negroid and therefore it couldn't have been introduced in Iberia by the Visigoths. While no one disagrees that the haplogroup E originated in the Horn of Africa it doesn't mean that their carriers have therefore to be autosomally African... really weird logic. E-V13 is actually more common in certain regions of modern Germany than it is in most of the Iberian Peninsula.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

R1b is Visigothic, EV13 in Iberia isn't Celtic but from Greek colonists.

E-V13 in Iberia was most likely introduced through different ethnic groups at different periods of history. Could be Greek, Roman or yes, even Visigothic. There are Visigoth samples who carry this particular haplogroup.

[Voskos]

Cant handle iberian complexes on a saturday. By the way e v13 exists in iberia since the neolithic iirc, so it has probably nothing to do with Greeks.

[Ayetooey]

Why are you changing the subject now from E-V13 to E?
We talk about E-V13 not about E which is around 65K old!
If we go that far in the past, all haplogroups at the end descend from a man that came from Africa!

Not 65k years old lol.

"Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods."

No ones going that far back; other haplos either developed in West Asia, Caucacus or Europe (I1/I2); E on the other hand came straight from the depths of Africa into Europe during the Neolithic age; it is directly African.

[Ayetooey]

And you are sure of that based on what? E-V13 is virtually non-existent among Berbers, they are overwhelmingly E-M81. If anything the majority of E-V13 in Iberia came from Greek and Phoenician colonies in the peninsula and with the Romanisation of the peninsula. Your theory makes little to nonsense.

It isn't a theory it's an established scientific fact. E came into Europe 7000 years ago from Africa lmao.

In Iberia it obviously came from Moroco and other parts of North Africa originally. The predecessor of E-v13 was found in Morocco.

"Marieke van de Loosdrecht et al. (2018) tested the DNA of seven 15,000-year-old modern humans from Taforalt Cave in northeastern Morocco, and all of the six males belonged to haplogroup E-M78. Autosomally they could be modelled as 2/3 Natufian and 1/3 Sub-Saharan African (West African), confirming the close genetic link between Late Paleolithic North Africans and Mesolithic South Levantines."

[Pubiczar]

R1b is Visigothic, EV13 in Iberia isn't Celtic but from Greek colonists.

Not really, there are many Spaniards that cluster with Bulgarians at YFULL and form their own branch.
Some date to Bronze Age, others to Iron Age and there are more possibilities that people similar to paleo Balkan people, carried it in Iberia during Bronze Age.
Another wave must have came with Thraco-Illyrian soldiers and colonists during the Roman Empire and with Visigoths during the Middle Ages as we have seen with the recently shown sample from Olaide et al.
A Brazilian man with paternal origins in Portugal recently have tested positive to the same clade I belong and which is non existent among the Greeks as no Greek had tested positive yet!
The actual percentage of E-V13 that belongs to Greek colonists must be minuscule in regards to the scenarios I've mentioned above!

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It isn't a theory it's an established scientific fact. E came into Europe 7000 years ago from Africa lmao.

We are talking about a particular clade, E-V13 not E don't try to be clever now. It's also a established scientific fact that E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans and its presence in the rest of the Mediterranean is likely a consequence of Greek colonization. Your theory that it was introduced in Iberia via the North of Africa makes no sense whatsoever.

[Ayetooey]

"According to Lacan et al. (2011), Neolithic skeletons (~7,000 years old) that were excavated from the Avellaner cave in Catalonia, northeastern Spain included a male specimen, which carried haplogroup E1b1b. This fossil belonged to the E1b1b1a1b (V13) subclade, and possessed identical haplotypes as found in modern European individuals (five Albanians, two Provence French, two Corsicans, two Bosnians, one Italian, one Sicilian, and one Greek). The presence of this haplogroup in Neolithic Spain suggests that it is associated with the Neolithic agricultural package"

[Pubiczar]

R1b is Visigothic, EV13 in Iberia isn't Celtic but from Greek colonists.

Not really, there are many Spaniards that cluster with Bulgarians at YFULL and form their own branch.
Some date to Bronze Age, others to Iron Age and there are more possibilities that people similar to paleo Balkan people, carried it in Iberia during Bronze Age.
Another wave must have came with Thraco-Illyrian soldiers and colonists during the Roman Empire and with Visigoths during the Middle Ages as we have seen with the recently shown sample from Olaide et al.
A Brazilian man with paternal origins in Portugal recently have tested positive to the same clade I belong and which is non existent among the Greeks as no Greek had tested positive yet!
The actual percentage of E-V13 that belongs to Greek colonists must be minuscule in regards to the scenarios I've mentioned above!

[Ayetooey]

We are talking about a particular clade, E-V13 not E don't try to be clever now. It's also a established scientific fact that E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans and its presence in the rest of the Mediterranean is likely a consequence of Greek colonization. Your theory that it was introduced in Iberia via the North of Africa makes no sense whatsoever.

It didn't originate in Greece at all bro, there's nothing European about E-v13 in its origins. E went from Africa into the middle east, and E-V13 developed there.

"The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

It was concluded that northeastern Africa, rather than eastern Africa, was where the E-M78 chromosomes began dispersing to other regions.[35] The most plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in Western Asia.[36] A hypothesis is that E-M78 carriers devoid of V13 mutation left Africa and that the coalescene occurred later in the Near East/Anatolia.[36] Data suggests that Western Asian carriers of V13 expanded in Europe at earliest 5300 years ago.[36] The TMRCA of European V13 is 4700–4000 years ago.[36] Phylogenetic analysis suggest that the European v13 spread through Europe from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion".[36]"

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Not really, there are many Spaniards that cluster with Bulgarians at YFULL and form their own branch.
Some date to Bronze Age, others to Iron Age and there are more possibilities that people similar to paleo Balkan people, carried it in Iberia during Bronze Age.
Another wave must have came with Thraco-Illyrian soldiers and colonists during the Roman Empire and with Visigoths during the Middle Ages as we have seen with the recently shown sample from Olaide et al.
A Brazilian man with paternal origins in Portugal recently have tested positive to the same clade I belong and which is non existent among the Greeks as no Greek had tested positive yet!
The actual percentage of E-V13 that belongs to Greek colonists must be minuscule in regards to the scenarios I've mentioned above!

Vasconcelos did Y-700 and he is next to a Bulgarian on the YTree. He isn't E-V13 though but another E clade that I can't remember now.

[Pubiczar]

It didn't originate in Greece at all bro, there's nothing European about E-v13 in its origins. E went from Africa into the middle east, and E-V13 developed there.

"The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

It was concluded that northeastern Africa, rather than eastern Africa, was where the E-M78 chromosomes began dispersing to other regions.[35] The most plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in Western Asia.[36] A hypothesis is that E-M78 carriers devoid of V13 mutation left Africa and that the coalescene occurred later in the Near East/Anatolia.[36] Data suggests that Western Asian carriers of V13 expanded in Europe at earliest 5300 years ago.[36] The TMRCA of European V13 is 4700–4000 years ago.[36] Phylogenetic analysis suggest that the European v13 spread through Europe from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion".[36]"

I don't really know if your trolling or you are just plain dumb but E-V13 didn't come from Africa.
E-V13 is little to non existent in Africa.
By the way, the farmers which came during the Neolithic carried the gene for white skin...

Meet your I2 hunter gatherer daddy:

https://i.postimg.cc/4xH8RM7m/cheddar-man-16x9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Pubiczar]

Vasconcelos did Y-700 and he is next to a Bulgarian on the YTree. He isn't E-V13 though but another E clade that I can't remember now.

I know, I've been very interested in y-dna and subclades, I've have informed myself a lot.
There is a strong relation between the paleo-Balkan people and the Iberians, I don't know but the Iberian Celts might somehow be connected to the Balkan people like Thracians and Illyrians...

[Dick]

Not 65k years old lol.

"Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods."

No ones going that far back; other haplos either developed in West Asia, Caucacus or Europe (I1/I2); E on the other hand came straight from the depths of Africa into Europe during the Neolithic age; it is directly African.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190327/0c3c728767237a5d30cf969ecaf0a774.jpg

[Pubiczar]

...

:rolleyes: Every slut who can't keep her slutiness in check deserves that, especially the one who down rates her ethnicity in favor of the enemy.
Any problem with that?
Pusi kur sea

[Leto]

Norka is Russian with a Tatar grandfather and he is E-V13, lol.

[Pausanias]

Or Greeks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_colonies_in_Iberia

[HolyMoon]

Cope

It's African, E-V13 are self-hating rapebabies.

[RenaRyuguu]

yep

[Coastal Elite]

oh hell yeah

[Rocinante]

Visigoths or Romans.

[Germaniac]

Actually they’ve found a Visigoth burial site in Eastern Spain in which one of the males was E-V13. The burial goods were of Visigoth make and also suggested those men buried there were from the nobility. That said, and given E-V13 has also been found in a Goth burial in Poland, points to Visigoths having been the ones carrying E-V13 into Iberia. Some of if could be already from Scandinavia, but surely most of it came into the Gothic bloodline by being absorbed through the centuries they’ve spent on Eastern Europe and the Balkans. It wasn’t a very closed society at that stage, and it only became closed when it established itself as a ruling class in Iberia/Southern France, only to become open again when they’ve decided to allow Visigoths to marry Hispano-Romans. BTW, the autosomal DNA of the E-V13 Visigoth from the burial site in Eastern Spain is a mix of Balkan, Eastern European, and Germanic DNA, so it’s surely from before the Visigoths started intermarrying with Iberian locals. Also, the Goth E-V13 found in Poland had autosomal DNA highly related to Scandinavians and other Germanic peoples, with only a minority of his genes being Eastern European.

[Kmakkmak]

I think that E-V13 in Britain is descended from Roman Soldiers.

[Oneeye]

Everyone arguing over E-v13, but nobody wants to talk about E-V12 evuh

http://www.departmentofmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/frog-2029752_1280.png

[Sacrificed Ram]

According I remember, the OP said his E-V13 clade shares markers specifically with people from regions of Germany and Italy, no balkans.

[Rocinante]

Could be from Anatolian Neolithic Farmers too.

[Hulu]

Could be from Anatolian Neolithic Farmers too.

It isnt. No samples from there in ev13 routes Ive seen.

[Gonzalort]

Visigoth let very little traces in iberia, less that 10%, it's most probably visigoth were I-1 and then the could mixture with Ra1 and then with Rb1

E-V13 is carried by ancient north africa populations, mostly morroco and algeria

[Adamm]

Visigoth let very little traces in iberia, less that 10%, it's most probably visigoth were I-1 and then the could mixture with Ra1 and then with Rb1

E-V13 is carried by ancient north africa populations, mostly morroco and algeria

E-V13 isn't that common in Morocco or Algeria (I've seen them but they are not a lot), maybe E-V13 came from ancient Egypt and went to the balkans?

[Hajimurad]

Visigoth let very little traces in iberia, less that 10%

E-V13 is carried by ancient north africa populations, mostly morroco and algeria

No. Only E-M81 and R-V88 is clearly North African. E-V13 is carried by peoples of Europe and Middle East.

[Kmakkmak]

neolitic balkan origin. I think that roman soldiers from balkan provinces have this y dna mostly. This soldiers brought this Y Dna to Iberia. But I do not say that every carriers of E-V13 of Iberia is roman soldiers.

[Kmakkmak]

No. Only E-M81 and R-V88 is clearly North African. E-V13 is carried by peoples of Europe and Middle East.

R-V88 in not native Nort African.

[Hajimurad]

R-V88 in not native Nort African.

R-V88 is native to Austro-Asiatic-speaking population (such as Chadic-speakers of Kamerun and Nigeria, and some Berber groups).

[Rocinante]

Visigoth let very little traces in iberia, less that 10%, it's most probably visigoth were I-1 and then the could mixture with Ra1 and then with Rb1

E-V13 is carried by ancient north africa populations, mostly morroco and algeria

Lol no. North africans are overwhelmingly E1b-M81

[Halgurd]

I don't believe in the theory of Romans carrying E-V13 to Iberia and UK.

E-V13 was found in a viking from Denmark dated to around the 10th century. During this period the Danes launched an invasion into England and established Danelaw. British E-V13 is more likely to come from them.

Similarly many groups migrated from the Balkans to Iberia and even N. Africa where it is found today.

The idea about Romans in West Europe and Alexander the Great in West Asia being responsible for the dispersal of E-V13 is outdated.

[Gallop]

The Visigoths apparently were inclusive and already upon arrival in Iberia they were reinforced from the Balkans.

These are my own matches where Visigoths appear. In addition to being inclusive, they probably themselves contribute to the autosomal of others.

1. Visigoth Iberian Girona (550 AD) ..... 8.765 - I12034 -
Visigoth (Genetic match)

5. Girona Sant Julia de Ramis (880 AD) ..... 9.193 - I10895
Visigoth + Vascones (4.831)
Visigoth + Aquitani (5.069)
Vascones + Gallo-Roman (5.148)
Visigoth (5.682)

13. Girona Sant Julia de Ramis (1060 AD) ..... 10.71 - I10852
Visigoth + Gallo-Roman (4.475)
Gallo-Roman (4.774)
Visigoth + Ligurian (5.353)

24. Girona Sant Julia de Ramis (1060 AD) ..... 11.65 - I10851
Visigoth + Rhaeti (4.057)

25. Medieval Villa Magna Italy (990 AD) ..... 11.72 - R63
Ligurian + Etruscan (2.875)
Visigoth + Ligurian (3.258)
Visigoth (5.682)

26. Gallo-Roman Mix Crypta Balbi (500 AD) ..... 11.78 - R108
Gallo-Roman + Frank (3.723)
Etruscan + Frank (4.997)
Belgae + Etruscan (5.014)
Visigoth + Frank (5.107)
Belgae + Gallo-Roman (5.118)
Visigoth (7.62)

27. Late Medieval L'Esquerda Spain (1350 AD) ..... 11.81 - T-145-2
Visigoth + Al-Andalus (5.165)

29. Late Medieval Cancelleria Basilica (1485 AD) ..... 11.94 - R1221
Etruscan + Frank (4.984)
Gallo-Roman + Frank (5.626)
Visigoth + Frank (5.863)

37. Imperial Rome Mausoleo Augusto (500 AD) ..... 12.56 - R33
Rhaeti + Illyrian (3.686)
Etruscan + Illyrian (4.031)
Visigoth + Illyrian (5.105)

38. Carolingian Settlement Barcelona (790 AD) ..... 12.58 - I7676
Visigoth + Iberian (7.397)

72. Nazari Period Andalusia (1400 AD) ..... 14.41 - I8145
Aquitani + Gallo-Roman (13.97)
Visigoth + Aquitani (14.1)
Aquitani (14.5)
Visigoth + Iberian (14.6)
Vascones + Gallo-Roman (14.73)
Vascones + Aquitani (14.9)
Visigoth (15.28)
Gallo-Roman (15.37)
Iberian (16.62)
Vascones (16.83)

77. Rugii Tribe Oder-Vistula (135 AD) ..... 14.55 - PCA36
Visigoth + Saxon (7.21)

92. Girona Sant Julia de Ramis (990 AD) ..... 15.05 - I10892
Vascones + Etruscan (10.61)
Visigoth + Iberian (10.97)

99. Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 15.28 - R61 -
Visigoth + Etruscan (6.796)

132. Ostrogoth Mix (495 AD) ..... 16.5 - AEH_1
Roman Hispania + Illyrian (11.27)
Illyrian (12.11)
Visigoth + Roman (12.33)

166. Medieval Tyrolian (590 AD) ..... 17.45 - SZ18
Y-DNA: E1b (P177/PF1939) ISOGG 2020
Ostrogoth + Frank (5.029)
Thuringii + Ostrogoth (5.983)
Visigoth + Frank (6.251)

173. Marseilles Plague Victim (1721 AD) ..... 17.64 - OBS116
Thuringii + Frank (9.422)
Visigoth + Thuringii (9.51)
Visigoth + Frank (9.667)
Visigoth + Gaul (10.12)
Gaul + Frank (10.34)
Frank (10.91)
Gaul (11.58)
Visigoth (11.64)
Thuringii (12.78)
Saxon (14.83)

178. Frankish Lombard (580 AD) ..... 17.81 - CL49
Frank (8.148)
Ostrogoth + Illyrian (8.189)
Visigoth + Illyrian (8.243)

202. Franco Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1215 AD) ..... 18.75 - R62
Ostrogoth + Frank (5.412)
Visigoth + Saxon (5.648)

221. Frankish-Gallic Lombard Grave (590 AD) ..... 19.22 - SZ27
Visigoth + Gaul (6.588)

224. Medieval Hungary / Balkan (1244 AD) ..... 19.38 - DA199
Visigoth + Scythian (7.286)

230. Visigoth Frankish Girona (550 AD) ..... 19.59 - I12032 -
Visigoth + Frank (3.644)

I had omitted the dates before Christ, but they also appear, I don't know how that goes, but well.

231. Kornice Bronze Age Poland (2200 BC) ..... 19.66 - I6582 -
Alemanni + Frank (4.608)
Visigoth + Alemanni (4.917)
Ostrogoth + Frank (5.205)
Vandal + Frank (5.8)
Alemanni + Ostrogoth (7.055)
Ostrogoth (7.614)
Frank (8.382)
Alemanni (9.319)
Vandal (11.16)
Visigoth (11.6)

240. Swiss Germanic (580 AD) ..... 19.97 - CL102
Scythian + Frank (3.971)
Gaul + Frank (4.406)
Visigoth + Gaul (4.755)
Scythian + Gaul (5.461)
Visigoth + Scythian (5.971)
Gaul (7.131)
Frank (7.131)
Visigoth (8.093)
Scythian (10.2)
Thuringii (11.42)

Ostrogoths and Visigoths in a way are the same thing with different paths. I have omitted some of my matches that get Ostrogoth.

241. Germanic Mixed Tribe (505 AD) ..... 19.97 - AED513
Belgae + Ostrogoth (7.019)

Really if they had only wanted to keep blonde hair they would not have achieved anything as can be seen.

The Visigoths of Spain came well tanned. Anyone who has been a Gladiator knows that it must be so, natural and intuitive selection.

[tekken999]

I thought R1b-S21 was responsible the visigothic dna in spain?

[Rocinante]

What I mean is that E-M81 could not arrive to Iberia with the Berber invasion, that is all.

:vote_yes:

[Rocinante]

I thought R1b-S21 was responsible the visigothic dna in spain?

Maybe the S21/U106 is present in Iberia because the germanic Invaders, but it's peaking is actually in Portugal. I think the Visigoths could have brought more variety of haplogroups that we imagine, like the R1a (peaking in Cantabria), the E-V13 (because the balkan influence), and the I1.

[Nassbean]

:vote_yes:

science disagree with you :


Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%–4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested (Bosch et al. 2001) that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky (95% CI 4.6–6.3 ky) that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. (2001) in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula: in our data set, 8 of 15 E-M78 chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe (see above). Second, and more importantly, the degree of the African contribution is highly variable across different Iberian populations: the proportion of haplogroup E chromosomes of African origin (E[xE3b], E-M35*, and E-M81) was <5% in three Spanish locations; 10.0% and 14.2% in northern and southern Portugal, respectively; and >40% in the Pasiegos (table 1). A relatively high frequency of E-M81 in a different sample of Pasiegos (18%) and non-Pasiegos Cantabrians (17%) has also recently been reported (Maca-Meyer et al. 2003). Such differences in the relative African contribution to the male gene pool of different Iberian populations may reflect, at least in part, the different durations of Islamic influence and introgression in different parts of the peninsula, as well as drift/founder effects for the small Pasiegos group.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707643651


say masha'allah now ;)

[Rocinante]

science disagree with you :



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707643651


say masha'allah now ;)

:vote_no:

[Cristiano viejo]

:vote_no:

Pasiegos are the worst nightmare of nassbean in his agenda to brownize the Iberian peninsula when he talks about genetic xD

[Rocinante]

Pasiegos are the worst nightmare of nassbean in his agenda to brownize the Iberian peninsula when he talks about genetic xD

He is stubborn, because how do you explain the E-M81 frencuencies in places that have not been touched by the islamic invasion? Examples:

Auvergne (Central France) = 5%
Île-de-France (North France) = 5%
Sardinia = 6%
Lucera = 3%

This E-M81 was brought mainly by neolithic farmers.

[Nassbean]

Pasiegos are the worst nightmare of nassbean in his agenda to brownize the Iberian peninsula when he talks about genetic xD

I'll repost it :


the proportion of haplogroup E chromosomes of African origin (E[xE3b], E-M35*, and E-M81) was <5% in three Spanish locations; 10.0% and 14.2% in northern and southern Portugal, respectively; and >40% in the Pasiegos (table 1). A relatively high frequency of E-M81 in a different sample of Pasiegos (18%) and non-Pasiegos Cantabrians (17%) has also recently been reported (Maca-Meyer et al. 2003). Such differences in the relative African contribution to the male gene pool of different Iberian populations may reflect, at least in part, the different durations of Islamic influence and introgression in different parts of the peninsula, as well as drift/founder effects for the small Pasiegos group.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707643651

they are your nightmare because you don't know how to explain it ...reality is that a brown NA penis penetrated a cantabrian vagina and it seems these iberian women were quite fertile that's why the study talks about a founder effect :rolleyes: