Northern influence in Greeks.

[ADonkeyBrain]

The thing is that some ANE-related ancestry was already in the Balkans in the Neolithic and who's to say it wasn't also in Greece in places not tested yet. Also, I don't know why this went unnoticed but Iron Age Iranian clusters with Bronze Age Anatolia.

Για να είναι όμως αυτό πιθανό δε θα έπρεπε οι συγκεκριμένοι θεωρητικοί πληθυσμοί να έχουν πολύ περισσότερο EHG απ'ότι WHG; Αυτό το βλέπουμε από Ουκρανία και μετά αλλά όχι στα Βαλκάνια όπου η αναλογία είναι αντίστροφη, no; Σε κάθε περίπτωση, προσωπικά προτιμώ τη θεωρία της στέππας για γλωσσολογικούς κλπ. λόγους. Πιστεύω πως η γενετική σχηματίζει εικόνα που συμφωνεί μ'αυτή αλλά συμφωνώ πως έχουμε δρόμο ακόμη.

It's Early Bronze Age Armenia btw, not Anatolia.


But it originated within Thessaloniki, which at the time was mostly populated by Slavs.

As I told you, you're wrong about both. You must be just trolling now for funsies.

[Freeroostah]

But it originated within Thessaloniki, which at the time was mostly populated by Slavs.

Thessaloníki was neither conquered nor populated by the Slavic people

[Tauromachos]

As I told you, you're wrong about both. You must be just trolling now for funsies.

This is Sikeliot the Slavicizer at work

[Sikeliot]

Ok let's try it this way. This is the Eurogenes K36 for the ancient Canaanite. Notice who is on the list of top 20 populations and which is not.

First 20 Populations distance %
Samaritan 7.75 82.92
Palestina 101.82 6.31
Levant 105.19 6.11
Jordan 267.36 2.40
Iraqi_Jews 726.23 0.89
Bedouin_ISR 3037.79 0.21
Assyrian 4585.10 0.14
Egypt 4937.18 0.13
Sephardi_Jews 6066.46 0.11
Azeri_Jews 7562.07 0.09
Cyprus 9575.08 0.07
Sicily_Messina 25636.77 0.03
Askhenazi 27945.21 0.02
Sicily_Agrigento 28471.33 0.02
Sicily_Caltanisetta 30213.10 0.02
Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro 30331.86 0.02
GR_Crete 31149.95 0.02
Sicily_Ragusa 34300.20 0.02
Caucasus_Jews 34539.55 0.02
Sicily_Catania 40155.75 0.02

[Tauromachos]

:ranger

[Scholarios]

I defeated so many people by providing a single source.

They claim that Greeks are Slavicized when there are no Slavic cultural traits in Greece, Slavic loanwords are inexistent (except specific places in northern Greece).

Has anyone of you ever wondered why the Serbs and Bulgarians are Orthodox and write in Cyrillic, which is almost like a Greek alphabet? Let me tell you why, because the Byzantines tried to assimilate them, and they did not assimilate them in Greece, but in Serbia and Bulgaria. So, Slavs invading Byzantine territory doesn't mean that they invaded Greece.

How hard is it to understand? There are few Slavic cultural traits because the Slavs were Hellenized? block-headed neo-Greek, are you of Arvanite ancestry or what? Or are you just Hellenass's brother?
The Slavs lived completely unmolested just in the Morea, let alone Macedonia, Epirus, Thessalia- for 218 years.

Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

Can you imagine the demographic affect if Syrian Refugees held Attiki for 218 years? And we have shown they continued to exist there (even unassimilated Slavs) for hundreds of years more.



When Emperor Michael Palaiologos decided to launch the reconquista of the Peloponnese from the Franks (late 13th century), when he arrived in Mistras, the first to welcome him were the Slavs of Taygetos and the Tsakones of Parnon. The Frankish rulers of Peloponnese in the french version of the "chronicle of Morea" describe these Slavs as "un gent de voulentè et n'obeissent a nul seignor" (Livre de la Conqueste de la Princèe de l'Amorèe) "a people with guts who don't obey in no master". Plus, they write that they had conquered all of Peloponnese except the Slavs of Taygetus. We are later told that the same Slavs of Taygetus had liberated the city of Kalamata from the Franks and restored it to the Byzantine control.



a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%AB...oria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

[ADonkeyBrain]

How hard is it to understand?

In all fairness, how much should one expect from someone who opines with such certainty on this sort of thing without even knowing whether there are more than 10 Slavic loanwords in Greek?

[Scholarios]

Basically, Sikeliot has a mental illness as well to push this issue- since he is not really in some position to speak completely with authority on ancient dna from a handlful of samples, only to make educated guesses like we do- but we know this is his emotional issue about Greeks he needs to get over, so whatever. Still, there are some things these recent samples have said which require some pretty hefty double-think to ignore. (both in favor of continuity and against). I think the paper says "Greeks have always been a work in progress" or something to that effect.

But as a Greek, I got over it long ago. Sure, I would also like to be a pure Mycenaean or Argead of whatever. I used to listen to my dad or uncle who say we were pure Dorians or whatever, and that the barbarians never got across those mountains over there (Bulgars, Albanians, etc) and that Greece endured.

Well, Greece did endure, but I am not a pure Dorian or Mycenaean. But I am still a Greek. Not some "slavicized" Greek (whatever that means)

[Sikeliot]

Basically, Sikeliot has a mental illness as well to push this issue- since he is not really in some position to speak completely with authority on ancient dna from a handlful of samples, only to make educated guesses like we do- but we know this is his emotional issue about Greeks he needs to get over, so whatever.

I do not. I just am against incomplete information, academic dishonesty, and extreme forms of nationalism. I also think that in order for Greeks to deny that they have any Slavic ancestry involves linking themselves to southern Italians and Sicilians which in turn to do so, erases that Sicilians have Levantine ancestry.

If you want to be technical it makes more sense to say Greeks have ancestry from Hellenized Slavs, not that they're Slavicized Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

As I told you, you're wrong about both. You must be just trolling now for funsies.

Then where did it originate?

[Tauromachos]

I do not. I just am against incomplete information, academic dishonesty, and extreme forms of nationalism.

So you are against alot of things you are doing yourself all the time

[ADonkeyBrain]

Then where did it originate?


Lavrentis writes a lot of nonsense but Salonica was never 'predominantly Slavic speaking', indeed it was a city that the Slavs couldn't capture/penetrate and as such remained continuously predominantly Greek-speaking until the Ottoman capture (in certain periods when Ladino-speaking Jews made up a plurality of its population). Of course, bilingualism must have existed (we have some historical clues of that) due to the neighboring Slavs in the countryside to the North. Also as an aside, the Cyrillic wasn't invented by the Byzantine Cyril, that was the Glagolitic; it was likely invented by Cyril's Bulgarian students at Preslav.

[Sikeliot]

So you are against alot of things you are doing yourself all the time

Greeks in order to deny that they have any northern input, do so by erasing other input in my own ethnicity. That's why I take issue. No other reason.

[ADonkeyBrain]

Greeks in order to deny that they have any northern input, do so by erasing other input in my own ethnicity. That's why I take issue. No other reason.

In all fairness, I don't think most people particularly care if Sicilians have later Levantine ancestry (if anything, on these sorts of fora, it's often exaggerated). As I told you, relax, samples will still be coming for years to fully clarify the picture and this extra northern input compared to the Bronze Age samples is already evident. If you continue at this pace, you'll burn out.

[Sikeliot]

In all fairness, I don't think most people particularly care if Sicilians have later Levantine ancestry (if anything, on these sorts of fora, it's often exaggerated). As I told you, relax, samples will still be coming for years to fully clarify the picture and this extra northern input compared to the Bronze Age samples is already evident. If you continue at this pace, you'll burn out.

Given that the Levantine ancestry is more relevant to people in some places in Sicily (like Palermo) than Greek ancestry is, it is definitely something I do not think should be erased. I also don't think it should be ignored that Cretans, too, are more Levant-shifted than the Mycenaeans and Minoans were.

[Tauromachos]

Greeks in order to deny that they have any northern input, do so by erasing other input in my own ethnicity. That's why I take issue. No other reason.

I didn't deny any input in your ethnicity.
We both agreed on Western Sicily so far.

Even Triandafilidis the guy i mentioned says in his book that the West of Sicily is genetically different from the East
due to the stronger Phoenician input in the West.

But he says different things about Greeks than you are claiming!

As far as i have seen you where derailing and erasing similarities and common overlapps between different Greeks for the sake of Sicilians.

And i never saw any other native real Sicilian here"because you only have Sicilian ancestry" being so obsessed with Greeks and making them to seem like Slavs or separate Greek Mainlanders completely from the rest of Greeks.

Throwing everything Greek from the Mainland into the same cauldron,ignoring that for example Vlachs which are also Greek in the modern sense,nevertheless have genetically distinct origins from Non Vlach Greeks in the Mainland and are the most Balkan shifted population of all modern Greek people.

You emphasize genetic differences and divides only where you want to and where it serves your interests.

[ADonkeyBrain]

Given that the Levantine ancestry is more relevant to people in some places in Sicily (like Palermo) than Greek ancestry is, it is definitely something I do not think should be erased. I also don't think it should be ignored that Cretans, too, are more Levant-shifted than the Mycenaeans and Minoans were.

Based on a few things I've seen, to me it seems to be something potentially more Levantine in Sicilians and something more Anatolian in Cretans that's causing your 'Levant shift' (you're trying to say they seem to be somewhat closer than the ancient samples were probably due to a decrease in Anatolian Neolithic and increase in some of the components more common in the Middle East I assume) but we'll probably know well enough at some point either way.

[Sikeliot]

I didn't deny any input in your ethnicity.
We both agreed on Western Sicily so far.

Even Triandafilidis the guy i mentioned says in his book that the West of Sicily is genetically different from the East
due to the stronger Phoenician input in the West.

But he says different things about Greeks than you are claiming!

As far as i have seen you where derailing and erasing similarities and common overlapps between different Greeks for the sake of Sicilians.

And i never saw any other native real Sicilian here"because you only have Sicilian ancestry" being so obsessed with Greeks and making them to seem like Slavs or separate Greek Mainlanders completely from the rest of Greeks.

Throwing everything Greek from the Mainland into the same cauldron,ignoring that for example Vlachs which are also Greek in the modern sense,nevertheless have genetically distinct origins from Non Vlach Greeks in the Mainland and are the most Balkan shifted population of all modern Greek people.

You emphasize genetic differences and divides only where you want to and where it serves your interests.


Well yes. My issue is more due to people who don't know these things, not you.

But there has to be some historical explanation for why Greeks only match Mycenaeans 70%. This is a lot and obviously you're still Greeks but if not Slavic, what do people think brought the other 30%?

[Tauromachos]

Based on a few things I've seen, to me it seems to be something potentially more Levantine in Sicilians and something more Anatolian in Cretans that's causing your 'Levant shift' (you're trying to say they seem to be somewhat closer than the ancient samples were probably due to a decrease in Anatolian Neolithic and increase in some of the components more common in the Middle East I assume) but we'll probably know well enough at some point either way.

And who cares
The more Anatolian shiftedness in Crete was already present in ancient Crete.
As i repeated several times.

Minoans and Mycanaeans where basicly the same people,but Minoans had more Anatolian whereas Mycanaeans had some
North East of which Minoans had zero.

[Freeroostah]

Well yes. My issue is more due to people who don't know these things, not you.

But there has to be some historical explanation for why Greeks only match Mycenaeans 70%. This is a lot and obviously you're still Greeks but if not Slavic, what do people think brought the other 30%?

Central European admixture (probably from the Dorians or the Franks), or even Scandinavian/Germanic from the Goths or the Varangian Guards.
Again, this is why the majority of Greeks score in Tuscany rather than Ukraine or Poland

[Sikeliot]

Central European admixture (probably from the Dorians or the Franks), or even Scandinavian/Germanic from the Goths or the Varangian Guards.
Again, this is why the majority of Greeks score in Tuscany rather than Ukraine or Poland

They are in line with Tuscan in terms of ratio of northern to southern, but the northern admixture is of a more eastern type.

[Tauromachos]

Central European admixture (probably from the Dorians or the Franks), or even Scandinavian/Germanic from the Goths or the Varangian Guards.
Again, this is why the majority of Greeks score in Tuscany rather than Ukraine or Poland

Leave out the Dorians which where a native Greek tribe
The rest is ok.

Yes,its true according to Triandifilidis also that Greeks score more close to modern Central Europe,
than to modern Eastern Slavs
But they score still more South than Central European and are predominantly from the
native Mycanaean stock to which Dorians also belonged.


That is to say there is a basic dominating genetic continuity throughout all Greek goups
from Mycanaean times until now.

[Sikeliot]

Leave out the Dorians which where a native Greek tribe
The rest is ok.

Yes,its true according to Triandifilidis also that Greeks score more close to modern Central Europe,
than to modern Eastern Slavs
But they score still more South than Central European and are predominantly from the
native Mycanaean stock to which Dorians also belonged.


That is to say there is a basic dominating genetic continuity throughout all Greek goups
from Mycanaean times until know.


If you want to see all of the mainland Greek samples I have and are willing to look at them WITH AN OPEN MIND I will post them all in one thread. I can demonstrate that the "Slavic" type affinity is present on the entire mainland, to some degree.

[Tauromachos]

If you want to see all of the mainland Greek samples I have and are willing to look at them WITH AN OPEN MIND I will post them all in one thread. I can demonstrate that the "Slavic" type affinity is present on the entire mainland, to some degree.

Slavic type affinity?

To which part of my post you quoted are you refering exactly.?

According to Triandafilidis Peloponesians cluster far away from Bellarussians,Poles e.c.t


Do you doubt the results of a man who is professional scientist in the field and has spend years of his live with this stuff?

[Sikeliot]

Slavic type affinity?

To which part of my post you quoted are you refering exactly.?

According to Triandafilidis Peloponesians cluster far away from Bellarussians,Poles e.c.t
and other Greeks also.

Do you doubt the results of a man who is professional scientist in the field and has spend years of his live with this stuff?

No, but I want to show you it is not just extreme northerners. Anyway the thing you miss is, the Greeks overall plot far from Northeast Europeans, but the influence is there and it shows in all the results.

[Tauromachos]

No, but I want to show you it is not just extreme northerners. Anyway the thing you miss is, the Greeks overall plot far from Northeast Europeans, but the influence is there and it shows in all the results.

I never claimed there aren't people in the South that have Slavic but it doesn't apply to all
neither Southerners nor Northerners on the same level.

You yourself said that there are even regions in the Central Mainland with zero Slavic.

[Sikeliot]

I never claimed there aren't people in the South that have Slavic but it doesn't apply to all
neither Southerners nor Northerners on the same level.

You yourself said that there are even regions in the Central Mainland with zero Slavic.


Why don't I just post every mainlander I have. Not all are so Slavicized. If I do will you look with an open mind?

[Freeroostah]

If you want to see all of the mainland Greek samples I have and are willing to look at them WITH AN OPEN MIND I will post them all in one thread. I can demonstrate that the "Slavic" type affinity is present on the entire mainland, to some degree.

Can you post Epirote samples too? (if you have)
Im very curious...!

[Sikeliot]

Can you post Epirote samples too? (if you have)
Im very curious...!

There is only one I have. But it is posted.

[Tauromachos]

Why don't I just post every mainlander I have. Not all are so Slavicized. If I do will you look with an open mind?

Not all so...:rolleyes:?

I would say there are Mainlanders that are zero Slavicized

[Scholarios]

Ok the real interesting thing here is that we have Mycenaeans riding chariots and using bronze and speaking Greek who have little affinity to the steppe, but should have been fresh from the steppe by most accounts. And yet, they look like Ashkenazi. WTH

It does make me want to see where I plot next to them, considering I get Sicilian , Ashkenazi, Sephardic in my top 10 on k12 and come up partly Sardinian on 23andme.

[Ylla]

Ok the real interesting thing here is that we have Mycenaeans riding chariots and using bronze and speaking Greek who have little affinity to the steppe, but should have been fresh from the steppe by most accounts. And yet, they look like Ashkenazi. WTH

It does make me want to see where I plot next to them, considering I get Sicilian , Ashkenazi, Sephardic in my top 10 on k12 and come up partly Sardinian on 23andme.

You can ask member Ibericus to plot you:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217238-Mycenaean-sample-Gedmatch-(c-1600%961100-BC)&p=4556491&viewfull=1#post4556491

[Peterski]

OK people, soon I will post here my ancient analyses for regional Greek averages.

[nightrider+]

Για να είναι όμως αυτό πιθανό δε θα έπρεπε οι συγκεκριμένοι θεωρητικοί πληθυσμοί να έχουν πολύ περισσότερο EHG απ'ότι WHG; Αυτό το βλέπουμε από Ουκρανία και μετά αλλά όχι στα Βαλκάνια όπου η αναλογία είναι αντίστροφη, no; Σε κάθε περίπτωση, προσωπικά προτιμώ τη θεωρία της στέππας για γλωσσολογικούς κλπ. λόγους. Πιστεύω πως η γενετική σχηματίζει εικόνα που συμφωνεί μ'αυτή αλλά συμφωνώ πως έχουμε δρόμο ακόμη.

It's Early Bronze Age Armenia btw, not Anatolia.

This is why I don't like discussions about autosomal. They always end up in a clusterfuck. If something like Malak Preslavets can be modeled as 82% Anatolian Neolithic + 15% WHG + 4% EHG, and we are talking about modeling here not actual ancestry, it could mean that at some point Balkan HGs were 25% EHG-like, and even if this is not true, one thing is certain: Some ANE-related ancestry was definitely in the Balkans long before whatever Steppe expansion and some of it survived in the Neolithic. You can't even say that someone can be much more EHG than WHG since most of their ancestry is common (and my phrasing was wrong in the previous post) and you wouldn't need that since Mycenaeans themselves also had a lot of WHG affinity (compared to Levant Neolithic for example), even if it wasn't direct ancestry. We are not looking at rigid ethnicities here, everything is very fluid.

Yes, it's BA Armenia, my bad. The study states that IA Iranian "shares greatest similarity with Kumtepe6 (Neolithic NW Anatolia) even when compared to Neolithic Iranians".

[Peterski]

OK people, soon I will post here my ancient analyses for regional Greek averages.

Done. Check it:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218056-Modeling-Greeks-as-mixes-of-250-ancient-samples&p=4573026&viewfull=1#post4573026

[Jana]

Yes,its true according to Triandifilidis also that Greeks score more close to modern Central Europe,
than to modern Eastern Slavs

They cluster closer to Central Europe for sole reason that Central Europe is much more neolithic/med influenced than North-Eastern Europe, not because they share direct ancestry from there. If you mix Southern European and East Slav you will get a Central European autosomal profile without any genetic input from region (and I'm not saying Greeks don't have that, but that your comment is non logical).

[Lavrentis]

How hard is it to understand? There are few Slavic cultural traits because the Slavs were Hellenized? block-headed neo-Greek, are you of Arvanite ancestry or what? Or are you just Hellenass's brother?
The Slavs lived completely unmolested just in the Morea, let alone Macedonia, Epirus, Thessalia- for 218 years.

Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

Can you imagine the demographic affect if Syrian Refugees held Attiki for 218 years? And we have shown they continued to exist there (even unassimilated Slavs) for hundreds of years more.




a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%AB...oria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

Hellenas is a retard, just like you.

You have a Balkan identity because you are an Arvanite, meaning Hellenized Albanian.

There's no point trying to argue with someone who claims that Greeks are Slavicized just because he wants to trigger retards like Hellenas and Raine.

Had the Slavs held the Peloponnese for 218 years, Peloponnesians would look like Poles now. A recent genetic study on them showed that they are closer to south Italians.

Your source is false because there are no linguistical and cultural traits of the Slavs in Peloponnese. And don't start with this "it's because they were Hellenized".

1) Genetics show that Peloponnesians are far from being Slavic.

2) Being Hellenized doesn't mean that they forget every single aspect of their language and culture.


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[Lavrentis]

---

[Sikeliot]

OK people, soon I will post here my ancient analyses for regional Greek averages.

Try Sicilians, too?

[Lavrentis]

@ADonkeyBrain, can you argue like a normal human being or not?


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[Lavrentis]

False.

Cyrillic alphabet was invented IN THESSALONIKI when it was predominantly Slavic speaking, and such DNA lives on in the original (non-1923 transfer) population.

I cannot believe that you pretend to be such a know-it-all when your knowledge on history is minimal.

1) Thessaloniki was never conquered by Slavs.

2) The Cyrillic alphabet was invented by 2 Greek missionaries, Cyril and Methodius. They created it because they wanted to create an alphabet for the Slavs. The Cyrillic alphabet was created by Greeks.


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[Tauromachos]

Ok the real interesting thing here is that we have Mycenaeans riding chariots and using bronze and speaking Greek who have little affinity to the steppe, but should have been fresh from the steppe by most accounts. And yet, they look like Ashkenazi. WTH

It does make me want to see where I plot next to them, considering I get Sicilian , Ashkenazi, Sephardic in my top 10 on k12 and come up partly Sardinian on 23andme.

Wrong,according to papers on the subject,Mycanaeans had some amount of Steppe related ancestry.

But this means ancestry from Pontos and the Caspian Sea,..

[Sikeliot]

Ok the real interesting thing here is that we have Mycenaeans riding chariots and using bronze and speaking Greek who have little affinity to the steppe, but should have been fresh from the steppe by most accounts. And yet, they look like Ashkenazi. WTH

It does make me want to see where I plot next to them, considering I get Sicilian , Ashkenazi, Sephardic in my top 10 on k12 and come up partly Sardinian on 23andme.


On a PCA plot Mycenaeans end up there, but they have different components than Sicilians or Jews if you look at their results. Mycenaeans would be modeled as modern southern Italians and Jews + additional Sardinian admixture and less affinity to the Near East overall. See this result on Dodecad K12b for instance:

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 40.33
2 Caucasus 40
3 Southwest_Asian 9.37
4 North_European 8.38
5 Gedrosia 1.82
6 Northwest_African 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.77
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.83
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.29
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.34
5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.72
6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.47
7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 15.81
8 Greek (Dodecad) 16.06
9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.16
10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.76
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.17
12 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.37
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.35
14 Cypriots (Behar) 22.41
15 Baleares (1000Genomes) 28.39
16 Turkish (Dodecad) 28.44
17 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 29.42
18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 29.63
19 Murcia (1000Genomes) 30.01
20 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 30.25

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61% Cypriots (Behar) + 39% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 6.92
2 70.2% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 29.8% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 6.99
3 78.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.29
4 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.43
5 71.1% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 28.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.53
6 54.8% Turkish (Dodecad) + 45.2% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 8
7 51.5% Sardinian (HGDP) + 48.5% Armenians (Behar) @ 8.06
8 69.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.2% French_Basque (HGDP) @ 8.36
9 59.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 40.6% Abhkasians (Yunusbayev) @ 8.43
10 56.8% Sardinian (HGDP) + 43.2% Balkars (Yunusbayev) @ 8.46
11 56.5% Sardinian (HGDP) + 43.5% Adygei (HGDP) @ 8.57
12 57.3% Sardinian (HGDP) + 42.7% North_Ossetians (Yunusbayev) @ 8.61
13 70.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 29.2% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 8.61
14 60.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.6% Georgians (Behar) @ 8.91
15 50.6% Sardinian (HGDP) + 49.4% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 8.91
16 52.1% Turks (Behar) + 47.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 9.04
17 51.7% Sardinian (HGDP) + 48.3% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 9.13
18 69.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.9% Pais_Vasco (1000Genomes) @ 9.3
19 71.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 28.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 9.56
20 52% Sardinian (HGDP) + 48% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 9.6



And compare to a modern day Sicilian below it:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.91
2 Atlantic_Med 26.64
3 Southwest_Asian 14.57
4 North_European 9.49
5 Gedrosia 7.93
6 Northwest_African 4.74
7 Sub_Saharan 1.23
8 East_African 1.09
9 Southeast_Asian 0.37
10 South_Asian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 5.86
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.9
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.23
4 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 7.33
5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 7.71
6 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 8.03
7 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.56
8 Greek (Dodecad) 12.73
9 O_Italian (Dodecad) 15.75
10 Cypriots (Behar) 16.21
11 Tuscan (HGDP) 16.44
12 TSI30 (Metspalu) 17.4
13 Lebanese (Behar) 18.52
14 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.11
15 Syrians (Behar) 20.92
16 Turks (Behar) 21.28
17 Jordanians (Behar) 21.76
18 Druze (HGDP) 22.33
19 N_Italian (Dodecad) 23.3
20 Palestinian (HGDP) 23.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.4% Druze (HGDP) + 40.6% Extremadura (1000Genomes) @ 1.71
2 59.5% Druze (HGDP) + 40.5% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 1.86
3 61.1% Druze (HGDP) + 38.9% Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes) @ 2.17
4 59.4% Druze (HGDP) + 40.6% Galicia (1000Genomes) @ 2.3
5 62.1% Druze (HGDP) + 37.9% Spanish (Dodecad) @ 2.32
6 59.5% Druze (HGDP) + 40.5% Murcia (1000Genomes) @ 2.62
7 58.7% Druze (HGDP) + 41.3% Baleares (1000Genomes) @ 2.65
8 90.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.7% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.66
9 90.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.4% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.75
10 90.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.5% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.76
11 89.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.5% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.77
12 90.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.5% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.78
13 89.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.1% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.83
14 90.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.9% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.83
15 63.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.2% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.83
16 90.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.9% English (Dodecad) @ 2.83
17 63.4% Druze (HGDP) + 36.6% Cantabria (1000Genomes) @ 2.84
18 90.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.7% British (Dodecad) @ 2.84
19 90% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.85
20 90.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.8% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.86

[Lavrentis]

How many Sicilian samples have been tested?


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[Sikeliot]

How many Sicilian samples have been tested?


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On which test?

[Lavrentis]

On which test?

On the quite recent one that everyone is talking about.


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[Scholarios]

Wrong,according to papers on the subject,Mycanaeans had some amount of Steppe related ancestry.

But this means ancestry from Pontos and the Caspian Sea,..

*little affinity* to the steppe is what I said. Much less than any current Balkan people. And yeah, it's Pontos stuff, not directly from the Kurgan stuff. the ydna clades as well.

[ADonkeyBrain]

Ok the real interesting thing here is that we have Mycenaeans riding chariots and using bronze and speaking Greek who have little affinity to the steppe, but should have been fresh from the steppe by most accounts.

In all fairness and as I'm sure you already know, one of the most popular dates often assumed by archaeologists has been the break between Early Helladic II and III (~2200 BC) which leaves a lot of room for extra dilution even within Greece. We don't have that period covered at all yet unfortunately to see what was going on on the genetics side or even the Mycenaean one extensively to see if any outliers akin to the Balkan case pop up.


And who cares
The more Anatolian shiftedness in Crete was already present in ancient Crete.
As i repeated several times.

Yes, some of us read the paper too :p and were expecting it already for that period since Greece shows some ties to the Near East. The general point, that I've made before and most sane people can agree on I assume, is that Greece continued to receive influences from Anatolia (duh, the two Aegean coasts were culturally connected) and Northeast Europe in later periods too and that's what caused the shift on the PCA relative to the Bronze Age samples. Sikeliot of course is impatient as usual even with 0 relevant Sicilian samples so far (and you have various influences there in this general time period, Beaker, Aegean etc.). So far we haven't even seen any specific regions of mainland Europe remain exactly the same since the Bronze Age after all.


This is why I don't like discussions about autosomal. They always end up in a clusterfuck.

Sure, we'll have some issues clarified even further in the future, but just to understand where you generally stand: do you accept that the PIE that included the ancestor of proto-Greek had steppe origins and pre-proto-Greek came to Greece via either a Balkan or an Anatolian population that had acquired steppe admixture and language, one way or another?

[nightrider+]

Sure, we'll have some issues clarified even further in the future, but just to understand where you generally stand: do you accept that the PIE that included the ancestor of proto-Greek had steppe origins and pre-proto-Greek came to Greece via either a Balkan or an Anatolian population that had acquired steppe admixture and language, one way or another?

I accept that it's a possibility, nothing more.

[Lemon Kush]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence in Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic invading tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why don't they claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes, at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germanics left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.

Discuss.

https://pics.onsizzle.com/nigga-what-unene-generator-net-19501234.png

Slavs, Germanics, and Celts are all considered Indo-European, which Indo-Europeans did you have in mind?

[Tauromachos]

https://pics.onsizzle.com/nigga-what-unene-generator-net-19501234.png

Slavs, Germanics, and Celts are all considered Indo-European, which Indo-Europeans did you have in mind?

There are also other Indo Europeans except of Slavs and Germanics.

As the name says this is a much broader spectrum which includes several ethnic groups between India and Europe and thus
includes even West Asian and North West Indian ethnicities.

Slavs and Germanics are two particular subgroups of this spectrum,nothing more

[wvwvw]

I cannot believe that you pretend to be such a know-it-all when your knowledge on history is minimal.

1) Thessaloniki was never conquered by Slavs.

2) The Cyrillic alphabet was invented by 2 Greek missionaries, Cyril and Methodius. They created it because they wanted to create an alphabet for the Slavs. The Cyrillic alphabet was created by Greeks.


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History is not Sikeliot's strong point.

[wvwvw]

It appears the Myceaneans had as much Northern European or Steppe as modern Greeks around 20%

[Peterski]

It seems that Mycenaeans I9033 and I9041 have more of Steppe admixture than I9010 and I9006.

[Arch Hades]

The populations of Greece were from 7,000-3,500 BC almost completely Anatolian Neolithic farmer. Then after 3,500 BC between that in 2,000 BC or so.there was another large migration and mixture event with brought haplogroup J and an Eastern signature related to 'Caucasus Hunter Gatherers' to Greece. This is the genetics of the Minoans and such groups. The first large Northern pulse of admixture came around 2,000 BC IMO...just before the Mycenaean ere..which also probably which brought Indo-European speech to Greece. Since then...well most of the rest must come from Medieval Slavs.

[Arch Hades]

It appears the Myceaneans had as much Northern European or Steppe as modern Greeks around 20%

No...they had less. That one Crete-Armenoi sample did but the rest of the Mycenaeans have noticeably less...but it's still there and non negligable though.

[catgeorge]

Bottom line is Modern Greeks and Myceneans have some 70% correlation. After so many wars and invasions and 5,000 years later this is nothing short of remarkable. Even 1% Mycenean heritage would make one Greek if they feel it in their bones.

[Sikeliot]

Bottom line is Modern Greeks and Myceneans have some 70% correlation. After so many wars and invasions and 5,000 years later this is nothing short of remarkable. Even 1% Mycenean heritage would make one Greek if they feel it in their bones.

Well, 1/64 African makes me feel it too so I guess I cannot judge :lol:

[catgeorge]

Well, 1/64 African makes me feel it too so I guess I cannot judge :lol:

Thats because you are African.

[wvwvw]

No...they had less. That one Crete-Armenoi sample did but the rest of the Mycenaeans have noticeably less...but it's still there and non negligable though.

The Crete Armenoi Dorian sample is interesting and is shifting towards Iberia. Like I have been saying the ancestors of Dorians or 1/3 of ancient Greeks came from Iberia via the Balkans and mixed with the Helladic populations of Greece and the Balkans, resulting in the ethnogenesis of Hellenes.

These people did not speak IE, they learned it from the Minoans and the Hellladic population of Greece.

[wvwvw]

All these also confirm what was already known by historians and archeology i.e a massive colonization of Italy including the North, by Myceaneans.

[wvwvw]

[QUOTE=Sikeliot;4573280Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61% Cypriots (Behar) + 39% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 6.92[/QUOTE]

The middle point of 61% Cyprus and 39% Sardinia is Sicily and Peloponnese.

[Lavrentis]

https://pics.onsizzle.com/nigga-what-unene-generator-net-19501234.png

Slavs, Germanics, and Celts are all considered Indo-European, which Indo-Europeans did you have in mind?

I meant the original Indo-European invaders.


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[Tauromachos]

I ment the original Indo-European invaders.


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There were never Indeuropean invadors in Greece.

[Arch Hades]

There were never Indeuropean invadors in Greece.

There were at the very least migrations that brought Indo-European speech..Greek has a common ancestor with other Indo-European languages which we call Proto Indo-European.

[Tauromachos]

There were at the very least migrations that brought Indo-European speech..Greek has a common ancestor with other Indo-European languages which we call Proto Indo-European.

Yeah,but this doesn't mean they came there as invadors!

And what original Indo-European was or looked liked is disputable also.
Are European Med types not Indoeuropean??

What where the Indoeuropeans??
Slavic??Germanic??or North Iran??

And Romans,Italics and ancient West Anatolians"Trojans,Phrygians.." where also Indoeuropean
Weren't they?

[Tauromachos]

Bump

[Arch Hades]

None of the modern types [Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Greek, etc] represent the original Indo-Europeans.

[Scholarios]

The Crete Armenoi Dorian sample is interesting and is shifting towards Iberia. Like I have been saying the ancestors of Dorians or 1/3 of ancient Greeks came from Iberia via the Balkans and mixed with the Helladic populations of Greece and the Balkans, resulting in the ethnogenesis of Hellenes.

These people did not speak IE, they learned it from the Minoans and the Hellladic population of Greece.

sorry to burst your bubble, but that is a low quality sample. results are bunk. it's also pre dorian, not dorian.

[Tauromachos]

None of the modern types [Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, Greek, etc] represent the original Indo-Europeans.

True,but this i pointed out myself a couple of posts earlier in this thread
Here

There are also other Indo Europeans except of Slavs and Germanics.

As the name says this is a much broader spectrum which includes several ethnic groups between India and Europe and thus
includes even West Asian and North West Indian ethnicities.

Slavs and Germanics are two particular subgroups of this spectrum,nothing more

[Tauromachos]

They cluster closer to Central Europe for sole reason that Central Europe is much more neolithic/med influenced than North-Eastern Europe, not because they share direct ancestry from there. If you mix Southern European and East Slav you will get a Central European autosomal profile without any genetic input from region (and I'm not saying Greeks don't have that, but that your comment is non logical).


You can't understand my comment unless you read the book written by Triandafilidis the guy to which i refered.
Not your fault,of course.

Triandafilidis says that there where migrations from native Greek people which spread throughout all Europe,
South Slavic countries like Croatia included and also Central Europe.
It is therefore that Greeks have some overlap with Central Europe as well and more of this then with NE Europe.
Not the other way around.

Classical Greeks didn't have ancestry from Central Europe.
I never said they had,i said quite the opposite,to let you know.
Read all my posts in this thread and you will be able to verify this for yourself.

Most of the neolithic/med influences came to the rest of Europe via Greece.

Greeks as such neither are or where Slavic nor Central European,simple.

I have nothing against Slavs or deny Slavic influences in Greece.

What i have something against is Sikeliot trying to overslavicize Greeks and claiming that every Greek from the Mainland
has some Slavic,when in reality this is far away from truth.

And the only reason why i mention this, is not because of what real Slavs are,but because Sikeliot is repeating this
in every single thread about Greeks and emphasizes it even in threads where it is totaly irrelevant.
He never stops and keeps on trolling Greeks with this nonesense, no matter what you do.

[Sikeliot]

The middle point of 61% Cyprus and 39% Sardinia is Sicily and Peloponnese.

Except Peloponnese shift north of Sicily by about 15-25%.

[Tauromachos]

:coffee:

[Dr. Bambo]

I think Northern Greeks are influenced about 30%

[brennus dux gallorum]

How hard is it to understand? There are few Slavic cultural traits because the Slavs were Hellenized? block-headed neo-Greek, are you of Arvanite ancestry or what? Or are you just Hellenass's brother?
The Slavs lived completely unmolested just in the Morea, let alone Macedonia, Epirus, Thessalia- for 218 years.

Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

Can you imagine the demographic affect if Syrian Refugees held Attiki for 218 years? And we have shown they continued to exist there (even unassimilated Slavs) for hundreds of years more.




a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%AB...oria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

Slavic presence in peloponnese was much more violent than eastern thessaly and central Greece, to begin with, so the things are not exactly like "peloponnese was the geographically most distant part from slavs, and so the least mixed"

2) during and after these 218 years, thousands of slavs were expelled to central anatolia, and there were massive replacements of slavs, with Greeks from the untouched islands (some Aegean islands were invaded by slavs,a source says they reached Crete in 6th century, even though I m not sure if it's accurate) coasts of mainland, South Italy and anatolia which reformed the demographics of the Greek Peninsula, from peloponnese to Macedonia. There are well detailed sources on that

3) the coasts were never conquered, and even today, the parts of the country that were not conquered by slavs are more populated than those which were conquered. For example compare the demographics of messinia with demographics of Arcadia

4) even in the most Slavic dominated parts, there was Greek presence, who paid taxes to slavs

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think Northern Greeks are influenced about 30%

15-30%, with most Slavic mixed in slavophones north of thessaloniki (many self-identify as ethnic minority

[Tauromachos]

Slavic presence in peloponnese was much more violent than eastern thessaly and central Greece, to begin with, so the things are not exactly like "peloponnese was the geographically most distant part from slavs, and so the least mixed"

2) during and after these 218 years, thousands of slavs were expelled to central anatolia, and there were massive replacements of slavs, with Greeks from the untouched islands (some Aegean islands were invaded by slavs,a source says they reached Crete in 6th century, even though I m not sure if it's accurate) coasts of mainland, South Italy and anatolia which reformed the demographics of the Greek Peninsula, from peloponnese to Macedonia. There are well detailed sources on that

3) the coasts were never conquered, and even today, the parts of the country that were not conquered by slavs are more populated than those which were conquered. For example compare the demographics of messinia with demographics of Arcadia

4) even in the most Slavic dominated parts, there was Greek presence, who paid taxes to slavs

Peloponese was never conquered by Slavs.

There where only 2 Slavic tribes the Melingi and the Ezerites which settled at some places at North Taygetos though they never entered Deep Mani beyond Taygetos and this tribes where already known when Peloponese was still Byzantine.
Thus we know about their existence from byzantine writers such as Constantin Porphyrogennitos.

Everything else is a artificialy blown up Soap Bubble

[Scholarios]

What can I say to people who think Peloponnesus was never conquered by Slavs? Peloponnesus was not only conquered, but Slavs ran completely free for over 2 centuries here in the most distant provinces. Not only that, but these Slavs transferred to Asia Minor were but a tiny part of their population who was allowed to utterly change the demographics of these backwater and depopulated areas and move in and gradually mix with Greeks in more populated areas. Furthermore, these " Greeks" brought in to resettle areas like Lakonia were actually an various peoples- not only Greeks.

I don't really see the issue here. The Slavic burden for modern Greece is really a problem of Sisyphean task to ignore.

[Tauromachos]

What can I say to people who think Peloponnesus was never conquered by Slavs? Peloponnesus was not only conquered, but Slavs ran completely free for over 2 centuries here in the most distant provinces. Not only that, but these Slavs transferred to Asia Minor were but a tiny part of their population who was allowed to utterly change the demographics of these backwater and depopulated areas and move in and gradually mix with Greeks in more populated areas. Furthermore, these " Greeks" brought in to resettle areas like Lakonia were actually an various peoples- not only Greeks.

I don't really see the issue here. The Slavic burden for modern Greece is really a problem of Sisyphean task to ignore.

You are an Idiot
Your taxinomy says everything,Slavo-Vlach backstabber.
The Byzantines used to say never trust a Vlach,they are dishonest people

[Scholarios]

You are an Idiot
Your taxinomy says everything,Slavo-Vlach backstabber.
The Byzantines used to say never trust a Vlach,they are dishonest people

Is it my fault you prefer being cucked by some Germanics? It's the only reason you're so butthurt. You prefer Western dick to Slavic. Seen it time and time again from you Neo-Greeks. One little autistic like Sikeliot and you go full shit-head. Whatever, I've got better things to do. Pick my nose, go to the bathroom, take a nap. All better than trying to convince some fanatics of even a mere possibility ...

[Arjana]

You are an Idiot
Your taxinomy says everything,Slavo-Vlach backstabber.
The Byzantines used to say never trust a Vlach,they are dishonest people

A huge part of eastern roman or byzantine population were vlachs actually.

[Tauromachos]

Is it my fault you prefer being cucked by some Germanics? It's the only reason you're so butthurt. You prefer Western dick to Slavic. Seen it time and time again from you Neo-Greeks. One little autistic like Sikeliot and you go full shit-head. Whatever, I've got better things to do. Pick my nose, go to the bathroom, take a nap. All better than trying to convince some fanatics of even a mere possibility ...

Nope Dude neither by Slavs nor by Germanics
I don't prefer any dick neither East nor Western.

I have my own dick which is native Greek nothing else!

[Tauromachos]

A huge part of eastern roman or byzantine population were vlachs actually.

And a huger part Greeks

[brennus dux gallorum]

What can I say to people who think Peloponnesus was never conquered by Slavs? Peloponnesus was not only conquered, but Slavs ran completely free for over 2 centuries here in the most distant provinces. Not only that, but these Slavs transferred to Asia Minor were but a tiny part of their population who was allowed to utterly change the demographics of these backwater and depopulated areas and move in and gradually mix with Greeks in more populated areas. Furthermore, these " Greeks" brought in to resettle areas like Lakonia were actually an various peoples- not only Greeks.

I don't really see the issue here. The Slavic burden for modern Greece is really a problem of Sisyphean task to ignore.

Sorry but the amounts described to be transferred from Greece to Asia Minor were like the majority of slavs in Greece

Otherwise how do you think modern Slavic admixture in Greece is like 1-20% and rest 70% is mycaenean (not even dorian)


And a huger part Greeks

The era she is talking about is the pre-10th century era.

Eastern roman empire was not something stable, the only stable thing was constantinople, and suburbs, all of them obviously Greek

[Arjana]

And a huger part Greeks

This is the lie and myth they have taught you to make you feel better.

Eastern roman empire was was a multi ethnic and multi cultural empire and every single citizen and emperor identified as roman.

They were called rominoi (byzantine term was invented by german historians In 1559).

The empire was created and ruled for its first 200 years by Illyrian emperors when it was its golden era also.

Albanians were also Romans, but with a much more ethnic uniqueness and identification rather than just "rominoi".

After Illyrian emperor armenian emperors come to power in the time when the official language was changed from Latin to koine greek (for several reasons)

Vlachs also constituted large parts of re population b of the empire in balkans and we're romans also.

[Arjana]

The era she is talking about is the pre-10th century era.

Eastern roman empire was not something stable, the only stable thing was constantinople, and suburbs, all of them obviously Greek

I was talking about all times and eras actually.

Constanndinople was a very mixed city with people from all around the world.

[Lavrentis]

What can I say to people who think Peloponnesus was never conquered by Slavs? Peloponnesus was not only conquered, but Slavs ran completely free for over 2 centuries here in the most distant provinces. Not only that, but these Slavs transferred to Asia Minor were but a tiny part of their population who was allowed to utterly change the demographics of these backwater and depopulated areas and move in and gradually mix with Greeks in more populated areas. Furthermore, these " Greeks" brought in to resettle areas like Lakonia were actually an various peoples- not only Greeks.

I don't really see the issue here. The Slavic burden for modern Greece is really a problem of Sisyphean task to ignore.

Retard, you accuse other people of wanting to get "cucked" by Germanics when all you do is claim that Greeks are "cucked" by Slavs? You are the one who wants to be "cucked" you fucking dumbass. I provided you proofs that the Slavs didn't influence Greece at all, and you keep insisting that you are "cucked" by Slavs. If your presence in this thread is because you want to trigger Raine and Hellenas, just fuck off.

Also what don't you understand from the fact that all Slavs who invaded Greece were moved to Asia Minor and were eventually slaughtered because they revolted?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lavrentis]

This is the lie and myth they have taught you to make you feel better.

Eastern roman empire was was a multi ethnic and multi cultural empire and every single citizen and emperor identified as roman.

They were called rominoi (byzantine term was invented by german historians In 1559).

The empire was created and ruled for its first 200 years by Illyrian emperors when it was its golden era also.

Albanians were also Romans, but with a much more ethnic uniqueness and identification rather than just "rominoi".

After Illyrian emperor armenian emperors come to power in the time when the official language was changed from Latin to koine greek (for several reasons)

Vlachs also constituted large parts of re population b of the empire in balkans and we're romans also.

Can you please leave these Illyrian "we wuz kingz" stuff back? Name me some Illyrian emperors and then the reasons why their era was "golden" please.

And the Byzantine Empire was indeed multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, but this doesn't change the fact that the official language and culture were Greek.


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[Arjana]

Can you please leave these Illyrian "we wuz kingz" stuff back? Name me some Illyrian emperors and then the reasons why their era was "golden" please.

And the Byzantine Empire was indeed multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, but this doesn't change the fact that the official language and culture were Greek.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The culture of the eastern roman empire as the name indicates was roman.

Even the language was changed by an armenian emperor.

You are hugely ignorant.

The first emperor of the eastern roman empire was illyrian and the golden era of the empire was under the Justin dynasty all over the 6th century from which Justinian the Great comes from.

The "wuz kings" keep it for yourself because it seems you need it.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I was talking about all times and eras actually.

Constanndinople was a very mixed city with people from all around the world.

In the last 2-3 centuries it was almost exclusively Greek populated, even though most of Greeks population was under frankish, venetian and catalan rule

[Laberia]

In the last 2-3 centuries it was almost exclusively Greek populated, even though most of Greeks population was under frankish, venetian and catalan rule

Seriously?

[Lavrentis]

The culture of the eastern roman empire as the name indicates was roman.

Even the language was changed by an armenian emperor.

You are hugely ignorant.

The first emperor of the eastern roman empire was illyrian and the golden era of the empire was under the Justin dynasty all over the 6th century from which Justinian the Great comes from.

The "wuz kings" keep it for yourself because it seems you need it.

Justinian was a Roman, not an Illyrian. There is no such thing as Illyrian emperors, these people were Romans.

And there's also no such thing as a Byzantine golden age. Some ages were brilliant, others not so much.



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[brennus dux gallorum]

Seriously?

Yes

[Laberia]

Yes

I doubt. Your most important scholars had this big problem of finding greeks. There are many blackholes in your history. They invented this theory of Phoenix. Greek nation is like Phoenix, disappeared and reappeared.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I doubt. Your most important scholars had this big problem of finding greeks. There are many blackholes in your history. They invented this theory of Phoenix. Greek nation is like Phoenix, dissappear and reappear.

I have no time for bs, for your information, "nation" in general appears after the French Revolution

So if that is gonna help you sleep tonight, "Greek originated people", if not Greek nation

And there is no blackhole in our history

[wvwvw]

I doubt. Your most important scholars had this big problem of finding greeks. There are many blackholes in your history. They invented this theory of Phoenix. Greek nation is like Phoenix, disappeared and reappeared.

Eat your words:

Greeks descend from Homer’s Mycenaean heroes
OLIVER MOODYThe Times12:00AM August 4, 2017

If you want to see the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium, you need only look to the boulevards of 21st-century Athens.

Modern Greeks are largely the descendants of the Bronze Age Mycenaean civilisation immortalised in Homer’s epic poems about the Trojan war, according to a genetic study that could tear up ancient history textbooks. They are also the nearest surviving relatives of the shadowy Minoan culture on Crete, which introduced writing to Europe and inspired the myths of Icarus and the Minotaur.

Alissa Mittnik, a molecular biologist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, one of the paper’s authors, said there was evidence of a strong continuity between both civilisations and today’s Greeks. “Modern Greek people are very closely related to the Mycenaeans and Minoans,” she said. “That was one of the very interesting findings.”

The findings also lend credence to some of the Greek myths.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/greeks-descend-from-homers-mycenaean-heroes/news-story/1d5ff80bde3dac9cc715bfc820639f32

[brennus dux gallorum]

Eat your words:

Greeks descend from Homer’s Mycenaean heroes
OLIVER MOODYThe Times12:00AM August 4, 2017

If you want to see the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium, you need only look to the boulevards of 21st-century Athens.

Modern Greeks are largely the descendants of the Bronze Age Mycenaean civilisation immortalised in Homer’s epic poems about the Trojan war, according to a genetic study that could tear up ancient history textbooks. They are also the nearest surviving relatives of the shadowy Minoan culture on Crete, which introduced writing to Europe and inspired the myths of Icarus and the Minotaur.

Alissa Mittnik, a molecular biologist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, one of the paper’s authors, said there was evidence of a strong continuity between both civilisations and today’s Greeks. “Modern Greek people are very closely related to the Mycenaeans and Minoans,” she said. “That was one of the very interesting findings.”

The findings also lend credence to some of the Greek myths.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/greeks-descend-from-homers-mycenaean-heroes/news-story/1d5ff80bde3dac9cc715bfc820639f32

Don't post genetics and other accurate scientific stuff, he has admitted himself that he can't understand such things, only things he understands is a few outdated sources, always cherry-picked, because further historical evidence leads to the same conclusion that genetic studies indicate, that nearly 70% of modern Greek dna is like mycaenean

[Laberia]

Eat your words:

Greeks descend from Homer’s Mycenaean heroes
OLIVER MOODYThe Times12:00AM August 4, 2017

If you want to see the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium, you need only look to the boulevards of 21st-century Athens.

Modern Greeks are largely the descendants of the Bronze Age Mycenaean civilisation immortalised in Homer’s epic poems about the Trojan war, according to a genetic study that could tear up ancient history textbooks. They are also the nearest surviving relatives of the shadowy Minoan culture on Crete, which introduced writing to Europe and inspired the myths of Icarus and the Minotaur.

Alissa Mittnik, a molecular biologist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, one of the paper’s authors, said there was evidence of a strong continuity between both civilisations and today’s Greeks. “Modern Greek people are very closely related to the Mycenaeans and Minoans,” she said. “That was one of the very interesting findings.”

The findings also lend credence to some of the Greek myths.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/greeks-descend-from-homers-mycenaean-heroes/news-story/1d5ff80bde3dac9cc715bfc820639f32

My words? When i have posted this?

[wvwvw]

Don't post genetics and other accurate scientific stuff, he has admitted himself that he can't understand such things, only things he understands is a few outdated sources, always cherry-picked, because further historical evidence leads to the same conclusion that genetic studies indicate, that nearly 70% of modern Greek dna is like mycaenean

Remarkable considering Greece is one of the oldest ethnicities in the world, whereas the Germanics first set foot in the region around 200 BC and Slavs around 600 BC and are one of the youngest tribal groups.

To me the most important thing out of this study is the genetic continuity of Minoans and Myceneans and the fact they were genetic simblings (something I have been saying for years) rather than their continuity with modern Greeks.

Minoan Linear A Script. An Early Aeolic and Ionic Greek Dialect?
http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v014.htm

The Phaistos Disk: A Statistical Decipherment
http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v002.htm

The Phaistos disc has been proven to be a funeral record of the burial of a proto-Ionian king called Arion.

Jean Faucounau, considers the Phaistos script as the original invention of a Cycladic and maritime Aegean people, the proto-Ionians. He interprets the text as "proto-Ionic" Greek in syllabic writing.

And there are mentioned the names of Gods such as Zeus. The historical kings of the Minoans, became the Gods of Myceanean Greeks and Romans.

The following paragraph from BBC article is worth reading:

“But the much more minor influx of Steppe people into Greece compared with northern Europe has led some to conclude that this migration could not have effected a change in language. This might imply that progenitors of Greek language - and perhaps other Indo-European languages -were already established in the Aegean by the time the Steppe people arrived.”

The idea that Linear A has not been deciphered is a lie. Linear A has been deciphered since the mid to late 1990's using computer analysis and it has been shown to be primarily proto-Aeolic and proto-Ionic Greek. Which makes sense considering it is now proven the Minoans were genetic simblings with the Myceaneans

The major problem with Linear A is that 95% of the text of the extant inscription is so damaged that it is unreadable therefore since it cannot be read it cannot be translated into anything meaningful.

"In conclusion, according to Tsikritsis, Linear A script represents an archaic form of Greek. Specifically, it must be an early aeolic dialect the speakers of which used linguistic archaisms (words and sounds that later became obsolete) that are not found in Linear B.."

Tsikritsis has published his work and no one has been able to refute it. It is the most extensive and scientifically based (peer reviewed) study ever carried out on Linear A and its shows it to be a dialect of Aeolic Greek.

[wvwvw]

My words? When i have posted this?

Eat your Fallenmeyer words

[Laberia]

I have no time for bs, for your information, "nation" in general appears after the French Revolution

So if that is gonna help you sleep tonight, "Greek originated people", if not Greek nation

And there is no blackhole in our history

I agree that you as a nation appeared after the French Revolution at the first quarter of XIX century. About the concept of nation, go read the ancient greeks, since you pretend to be their descendant.

[Laberia]

Eat your Fallenmeyer words

I don't have nothing to eat. Fallmerayer made an perfect explanation of his theory. And until now it's the most accredited history, of course a pain in your butt.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I agree that you as a nation appeared after the French Revolution at the first quarter of XIX century. About the concept of nation, go read the ancient greeks, since you pretend to be their descendant.

All the modern nations and so the modern concept of nation is appeared after the French Revolution, and I never fooled myself that we as Greeks are exception

But I don't pretend to be anything, history and modern genetics and anthropology suggest that I am only 30% different from the people who lived here in 1500 bc, the same time that I accept the fact that some of my ancestors are Slavic and other Europeans, what about your attitudes towards your even higher Slavic ancestry?

[brennus dux gallorum]

I don't have nothing to eat. Fallmerayer made an perfect explanation of his theory. And until now it's the most accredited history, of course a pain in your butt.

Yes, in spite of having been formulated in an era that almost nothing is considered accredited nowadays, it was so accredited that gained a Nobel prize, and nobody ever criticized it :D

He was such an asshole that after almost 150 continuous years of ottoman dominance in peloponnese, with all the poverty and rest of consequences, he expected to see Greeks talking like philosophers under their ancient ruins

[Tauromachos]

Sorry but the amounts described to be transferred from Greece to Asia Minor were like the majority of slavs in Greece

Otherwise how do you think modern Slavic admixture in Greece is like 1-20% and rest 70% is mycaenean (not even dorian)
+1
Not even dorians,yes.
This is because Dorians in the sense as many people think of them that is as a foreign distinct group of invadors didn't exist.

They where a native Greek Hellenic tribe and thus nothing else than a subbranch of prior Mycanaean Greeks.

What was Mycanean in pre-classical Greece split of into different groups and became Ionians,Dorians,Aeolians and Achaeans.

If you are interested in further genetical evidence of this ,buy the book of Triandafilidis
Η Γενετικη Ιστορια της Ελλαδας,
which is a book that debunks alot of myths,hoaxes and stereotypes about the origins and history of Greek people.

[brennus dux gallorum]

+1
Not even dorians,yes.
This is because Dorians in the sense as many people think of them that is as a foreign distinct group of invadors didn't exist.

They where a native Greek Hellenic tribe and thus nothing else than a subbranch of prior Mycanaean Greeks.

What was Mycanean in pre-classical Greece split of into different groups and became Ionians,Dorians,Aeolians and Achaeans.

If you are interested in further genetical evidence of this ,buy the book of Triandafilidis
Η Γενετικη Ιστορια της Ελλαδας,
which is a book that debunks alot of myths,hoaxes and stereotypes about the origins and history of Greek people.

The most important is that apart from tryantafilidis, there is not even one foreign study to refuse these facts (see studies of Pavia Un, standford Un., un. of Moscow etc)

[Laberia]

All the modern nations and so the modern concept of nation is appeared after the French Revolution, and I never fooled myself that we as Greeks are exception

But I don't pretend to be anything, history and modern genetics and anthropology suggest that I am only 30% different from the people who lived here in 1500 bc, the same time that I accept the fact that some of my ancestors are Slavic and other Europeans, what about your attitudes towards your even higher Slavic ancestry?

OK, but genetics, anthropology, etc, can not explain those black holes in your history that your forefathers tried to explain.

[brennus dux gallorum]

OK, but genetics, anthropology, etc, can not explain those black holes in your history that your forefathers tried to explain.

There were no blackholes in our history to be explained either by our forefathers or by scientists, science can not show something else than the truth 1+1 will always be 2, so simple. If such blackholes existed, they would be reflected in genetics. If genetics say there are no blackholes then there aren't

Science just confirms what historiography says,

[Laberia]

Yes, in spite of having been formulated in an era that almost nothing is considered accredited nowadays, it was so accredited that gained a Nobel prize, and nobody ever criticized it :D

He was such an asshole that after almost 150 continuous years of ottoman dominance in peloponnese, with all the poverty and rest of consequences, he expected to see Greeks talking like philosophers under the ancient ruins

Fallmerayer was a respected scholar of his time. Many people contradicted his conclusions. Than, like a serious scholar and a real gentleman he decided to visite personally Greece, something that those people who contradicted him, never did. And he explained very well the situation in Morea(Peloponnesus). After Peloponnesus he visited Attica where a new German king together with his German administration was installed there. He gathered many information personally and arrived in the conclusion that nothing was saved from the ancient greeks. He also advised the new administration to create courts in Albanian language because a large part of the population of this new country could not speak Greek. And was something very human. Some one have all the rights to know why he will be sent in a prison or why have to be executed. In my knowledge this courts in Albanian language were created in the capital of this new Kingdom, in Athens.

[catgeorge]

Fallmerayer was a respected scholar of his time.

https://media.giphy.com/media/BBAdXxBAXp3wc/giphy.gif

[brennus dux gallorum]

Fallmerayer was a respected scholar of his time. Many people contradicted his conclusions. Than, like a serious scholar and a real gentleman he decided to visite personally Greece, something that those people who contradicted him, never did. And he explained very well the situation in Morea(Peloponnesus). After Peloponnesus he visited Attica where a new German king together with his German administration was installed there. He gathered many information personally and arrived in the conclusion that nothing was saved from the ancient greeks. He also advised the new administration to create courts in Albanian language because a large part of the population of this new country could not speak Greek. And was something very human. Some one have all the rights to know why he will be sent in a prison or why have to be executed. In my knowledge this courts in Albanian language were created in the capital of this new Kingdom, in Athens.

And as a serious scholar, he visited the 1% of Greece (which was and still is populated by your beloved arvanites) in Attica and the 1/3 of korinthia, and concluded for the country as a whole, and now you wonder why everybody nowadays think he was an idiot (his own trip in Greece that you describe was and still is a huge part of criticism)

In his days, Hitler was considered a charismatic leader too, our dialogue is in 2017

So I will do you the favor and tell you that "nothing", maybe except of a small village in Attica, was left, we are talking about everything else here

[Laberia]

And as a serious scholar, he visited the 1% of Greece (which was and still is populated by your beloved arvanites) in Attica and the 1/3 of korinthia, and concluded for the country as a whole, and now you wonder why everybody nowadays think he was an idiot (his own trip in Greece that you describe was and still is a huge part of criticism)

In his days, Hitler was considered a charismatic leader too, our dialogue is in 2017

He visited the entire Greece, because Greece in those days was exactly Peloponnesus and Attica and some islands.

[Tauromachos]

Fallmerayer was a respected scholar of his time..

Respected,yes among his kinsmen and only at his time.

Only people who are still talking about him nowadays are low level trolls of TA.

PS:Fallmerayer knew nothing about genetics because this science didn't exist at his time.

[brennus dux gallorum]

He visited the entire Greece, because Greece in those days was exactly Peloponnesus and Attica and some islands.

That's wrong, he visited Attica and corinthia, probably a part of argolis, not the rest of peloponnese, and there is much stuff about it

BTW you forgot nearly half of the first Greek Kingdom, which was central Greece (and from which he visited only Attica), not to mention that claiming cyclades in his theory would make him even more ridiculous than he is considered today

[Laberia]

Respected,yes among his kindsman and only at his time.

Only people who are still talking about him are low level trolls of TA.

You are just a small kid. Go find your friends.

[Tauromachos]

You are just a small kid. Go find your friends.

Last thing to add"as for Fallmeridiot"
There where even more respected Scholars in medieval Europe who believed that the Earth is flat.
This myth has also been debunked.

[Laberia]

Everyone is free to read what Fallmerayer said:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_Fallmerayer/index.html

[Scholarios]

Retard, you accuse other people of wanting to get "cucked" by Germanics when all you do is claim that Greeks are "cucked" by Slavs? You are the one who wants to be "cucked" you fucking dumbass. I provided you proofs that the Slavs didn't influence Greece at all, and you keep insisting that you are "cucked" by Slavs. If your presence in this thread is because you want to trigger Raine and Hellenas, just fuck off.

Also what don't you understand from the fact that all Slavs who invaded Greece were moved to Asia Minor and were eventually slaughtered because they revolted?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sir, you can barely read - let alone provide " proofs" of anything other than some Wikipedia.


The truth is Slavs overran Greece( and the rest of the Balkans). Just look at our paternal haplogroups and you really don't need to give a shit about ancient autosomal studies. but that's okay because Romaios has nothing to do with DNA. Just met a member of the Kolokotronis clan who has Serb ancestors. So it goes all the way to modern times. Greeks and Slavs have been fucking for more than 1000 years. And it shows.

You're a cuck who let Westerners choose your identity.

[Laberia]

Last thing to add"as for Fallmeridiot"
There where even more respected Scholars in medieval Europe who believed that the Earth is flat.
Thisp myth has also been debunked.
Do you understand why i consider you an idiot? Some one post an link and you immediately give to me the thumb down. For what reason?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Everyone is free to read what Fallmerayer said:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_Fallmerayer/index.html

There are thousands of posts and threads about arvanites in this forum, an issue that as you can see Greeks are not interested here, so can you tell us what is the contribution of this one more post?

[Scholarios]

I agree that you as a nation appeared after the French Revolution at the first quarter of XIX century. About the concept of nation, go read the ancient greeks, since you pretend to be their descendant.

A shit stain with Pyrros as an avatar is going to lecture about someone else's ancestors? Why don't you finally drop the marijuana and read a book about your own history , numbskull.

[Lavrentis]

Sir, you can barely read - let alone provide " proofs" of anything other than some Wikipedia.


The truth is Slavs overran Greece( and the rest of the Balkans). Just look at our paternal haplogroups and you really don't need to give a shit about ancient autosomal studies. but that's okay because Romaios has nothing to do with DNA. Just met a member of the Kolokotronis clan who has Serb ancestors. So it goes all the way to modern times. Greeks and Slavs have been fucking for more than 1000 years. And it shows.

You're a cuck who let Westerners choose your identity.

You are a Hellenized Albanian (Arvanite). You have a Balkan identity and want to drag your fellow Balkanite Slavs closer to Greeks.

Thing is, there are no cultural, linguistical and genetical traces of the Slavs in Greece. Except from some places in northern Greece.

I'm a Westerner myself dear assimilated Balkanite. The country that assimilated your Albanian ancestors is considered to be the birthplace of the West.


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[Laberia]

A shit stain with Pyrros as an avatar is going to lecture about someone else's ancestors? Why don't you finally drop the marijuana and read a book about your own history , numbskull.

Did you finished to learn the history of your island?

[Scholarios]

Did you finished to learn the history of your island?

Did you finish to make my kebab?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Sir, you can barely read - let alone provide " proofs" of anything other than some Wikipedia.


The truth is Slavs overran Greece( and the rest of the Balkans). Just look at our paternal haplogroups and you really don't need to give a shit about ancient autosomal studies. but that's okay because Romaios has nothing to do with DNA. Just met a member of the Kolokotronis clan who has Serb ancestors. So it goes all the way to modern times. Greeks and Slavs have been fucking for more than 1000 years. And it shows.

You're a cuck who let Westerners choose your identity.

Paternal haplogroups are the one that show even less Slavic ancestry, if I am not mistaken, autosomal studies show this 1-30% Slavic admixture allover the country, which seems accurate

BTW nearly half or more of slavs are nowadays part of the West, and the ultra western Germans have more Slavic racial and cultural influence than Greece

[Laberia]

You are a Hellenized Albanian (Arvanite). You have a Balkan identity and want to drag your fellow Balkanite Slavs closer to Greeks.

Thing is, there are no cultural, linguistical and genetical traces of the Slavs in Greece. Except from some places in northern Greece.

I'm a Westerner myself dear assimilated Balkanite. The country that assimilated your Albanian ancestors is considered to be the birthplace of the West.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Scholarios is not an Arvanite. Please stop calling him Albanian, you are offending us. He is a cuman with some Jewish and Genoese.

[Laberia]

Did you finish to make my kebab?

Vieni che te lo infilo nell culo.

[Lavrentis]

Scholarios is not an Arvanite. Please stop calling him Albanian, you are offending us. He is a cuman with some Jewish and Genoese.

Some other people have told me that he is an Arvanite.


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[Laberia]

Some other people have told me that he is an Arvanite.


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Naaaah, apokliete.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Some other people have told me that he is an Arvanite.


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He is from the "red island" (chios)

[Laberia]

He is from the "red island" (chios)

Curiosity, why do you call it "red island"?

[Lavrentis]

I have met Arvanites and they have the same Balkan mindset as him, since they are Hellenized Albanians.

He is not from Chios, first of all the guy is a troll. He can't provide evidence for his claims, he just highjacks threads with false claims because he wants to trigger people like Hellenas and Raine.


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[Scholarios]

Paternal haplogroups are the one that show even less Slavic ancestry, if I am not mistaken, autosomal studies show this 1-30% Slavic admixture allover the country, which seems accurate

BTW nearly half or more of slavs are nowadays part of the West, and the ultra western Germans have more Slavic racial and cultural influence than Greece

Paternal haplogroups should put Greece at around 15% Slavic influence - if you can really give an exact number for such a thing ( not sure you can )

But these ideas to break up Balkan folk into " those with civilization " and those " without " is an entirely a Western operation. I am not particularly hateful of the West, and I do not trust the theories of Fallmerayer. But he had one point, which he exaggerated for political purposes ( not at all scholarly as Laviria the whore tries to say ). His point that the Christian population of Greece had more in common with other Christians of the Balkans than with some fake notion of the West is entirely. All this talk about " blonde Dorians " ( Germanics? Celts? Elite dominance? You don't say!)and other such whimsical nonsense is proof of that. Fallmerayer really only had the faintest notions of " blood" in our modern sense. What he really meant was " spirit" or some romantic crap- and of course here we can say unequivocally he was a racist. But that's a digression.

Point is, we're culturally Balkan,( but not Slavic) and thus we have relationships, including genetics relationships with our neighbors. Slavs or not. Every evidence I see shows that, and I don't see any point in front hinting it, other than trivial technicalities. ( oh but wait for Dorian DNA etc). I'm perfectly ok with some disagreement on this issue, but some of these people are just getting stupidly obtuse without even the slightest inkling of humility. Sooo Balkan.

[Scholarios]

I have met Arvanites and they have the same Balkan mindset as him, since they are Hellenized Albanians.

He is not from Chios, first of all the guy is a troll. He can't provide evidence for his claims, he just highjacks threads with false claims because he wants to trigger people like Hellenas and Raine.


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I have an entire thread entitled " the Slavs in Greece " ( and Albania.) Feel free to peruse it.

I don't have time to waste arguing with you. Some guy who would die if he ever read something he didn't already agree with.


But half of me is from a village in Morea with a Slavic name.


Goodnight sir.

[Lavrentis]

Paternal haplogroups should put Greece at around 15% Slavic influence - if you can really give an exact number for such a thing ( not sure you can )

But these ideas to break up Balkan folk into " those with civilization " and those " without " is an entirely a Western operation. I am not particularly hateful of the West, and I do not trust the theories of Fallmerayer. But he had one point, which he exaggerated for political purposes ( not at all scholarly as Laviria the whore tries to say ). His point that the Christian population of Greece had more in common with other Christians of the Balkans than with some fake notion of the West is entirely. All this talk about " blonde Dorians " ( Germanics? Celts? Elite dominance? You don't say!)and other such whimsical nonsense is proof of that. Fallmerayer really only had the faintest notions of " blood" in our modern sense. What he really meant was " spirit" or some romantic crap- and of course here we can say unequivocally he was a racist. But that's a digression.

Point is, we're culturally Balkan,( but not Slavic) and thus we have relationships, including genetics relationships with our neighbors. Slavs or not. Every evidence I see shows that, and I don't see any point in front hinting it, other than trivial technicalities. ( oh but wait for Dorian DNA etc). I'm perfectly ok with some disagreement on this issue, but some of these people are just getting stupidly obtuse without even the slightest inkling of humility. Sooo Balkan.

We are not culturally Balkan, you are culturally Balkan because you are a Hellenized Albanian. Talk for yourself and not for Greece.

Τι ειναι ολες αυτες οι δηθεν φιλοσοφιες που γραφεις μωρη γαμιολα; Δεν εισαι φιλοσοφος, γονος Αρβανιτων αγροτων εισαι.



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[Lavrentis]

I have an entire thread entitled " the Slavs in Greece " ( and Albania.) Feel free to peruse it.

I don't have time to waste arguing with you. Some guy who would die if he ever read something he didn't already agree with.


But half of me is from a village in Morea with a Slavic name.


Goodnight sir.

I want evidence of cultural, linguistic and genetic traces of Slavs in Greece. If you can't do that, just get off from this thread.

Sikeliot tries to convince us that Northern Greeks are Slavicized when in his posts northern Greeks usually score more NW than NE.


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[brennus dux gallorum]

Paternal haplogroups should put Greece at around 15% Slavic influence - if you can really give an exact number for such a thing ( not sure you can )

But these ideas to break up Balkan folk into " those with civilization " and those " without " is an entirely a Western operation. I am not particularly hateful of the West, and I do not trust the theories of Fallmerayer. But he had one point, which he exaggerated for political purposes ( not at all scholarly as Laviria the whore tries to say ). His point that the Christian population of Greece had more in common with other Christians of the Balkans than with some fake notion of the West is entirely. All this talk about " blonde Dorians " ( Germanics? Celts? Elite dominance? You don't say!)and other such whimsical nonsense is proof of that. Fallmerayer really only had the faintest notions of " blood" in our modern sense. What he really meant was " spirit" or some romantic crap- and of course here we can say unequivocally he was a racist. But that's a digression.

Point is, we're culturally Balkan,( but not Slavic) and thus we have relationships, including genetics relationships with our neighbors. Slavs or not. Every evidence I see shows that, and I don't see any point in front hinting it, other than trivial technicalities. ( oh but wait for Dorian DNA etc). I'm perfectly ok with some disagreement on this issue, but some of these people are just getting stupidly obtuse without even the slightest inkling of humility. Sooo Balkan.

There is no western intervention on being balkan or not, and balkans nowadays become more and more part of the West, also, celts were not, and still are not blonde

As for Greece, to be honest I always thought it was part of balkans, until I had my first experience in balkans, where I saw very few familiar things compare to what I expected

Today I think that more or less Greece is different from balkans, without that meaning "we have nothing in common with balkans". Some parts of Greece have more in common with balkans, some less, no part has nothing in common with balkans, a few have so many in common

I had experience in other parts of rural southern Europe which felt more familiar than balkans

[brennus dux gallorum]

Curiosity, why do you call it "red island"?

That's how a chiot-athenian that was doing his conscription with me called it

[Scholarios]

That's how a chiot-athenian that was doing his conscription with me called it

I actually come from a long line of Royalists...

[Laberia]

I actually come from a long line of Royalists...

No way that you are from a line of Royalists. You are a kuqo.

[Tauromachos]

This is the lie and myth they have taught you to make you feel better.

Eastern roman empire was was a multi ethnic and multi cultural empire and every single citizen and emperor identified as roman.

They were called rominoi (byzantine term was invented by german historians In 1559).

The empire was created and ruled for its first 200 years by Illyrian emperors when it was its golden era also.

Albanians were also Romans, but with a much more ethnic uniqueness and identification rather than just "rominoi".

After Illyrian emperor armenian emperors come to power in the time when the official language was changed from Latin to koine greek (for several reasons)

Vlachs also constituted large parts of re population b of the empire in balkans and we're romans also.

Your countries history is full of myths and lies.

And alot of Albanians here are very racist.

Not all!
But alot!

[Laberia]

Your countries history is full of myths and lies.

And alot of Albanians here are very racist.

Not all!
But alot!
Tell me one myth.

[Tauromachos]

Tell me one myth.

Alexander the Great was Albanian

[Laberia]

Alexander the Great was Albanian

Well, personally i prefer to follow what the opinion of Albanian scholar and institutions. There are no scholar here who support the theory that Alexander The Great was Albanian.
From the other side in the last 1.000 years, except for the XX century, in the foreign sources Albanians are always considered as nation descendants of Illyrians, Epirotes and Macedonians. The same can be said even about our medieval sources. In our legends and medieval chronicles, Alexander The Great is considered Albanian. Many authors, among them friends of greeks, support the theory that he was Albanian or at least partially Albanian.
In my opinion he was from mother side, half Epirot, i.e Albanian. From father side his grandmother was Illyrian, again Albanian and his grandfather was Macedonian. So he was an Macedonian, of course not a firomski, not serv, as the new retards of servian clan claim.
Who were the ancient Macedonians? Theories based in the language spoken by them are different. For sure they were not greeks. What exactly they were? This we will learn when your psychopathic chauvinism will stop to get involved in this story.

[MercifulServant]

Tell me one myth.

Albanians love black dick

[MercifulServant]

Tell me one myth.

Its not a myth though youre women and you love arab and Turkish cock

[brennus dux gallorum]

Well, personally i prefer to follow what the opinion of Albanian scholar and institutions. There are no scholar here who support the theory that Alexander The Great was Albanian.
From the other side in the last 1.000 years, except for the XX century, in the foreign sources Albanians are always considered as nation descendants of Illyrians, Epirotes and Macedonians. The same can be said even about our medieval sources. In our legends and medieval chronicles, Alexander The Great is considered Albanian. Many authors, among them friends of greeks, support the theory that he was Albanian or at least partially Albanian.
In my opinion he was from mother side, half Epirot, i.e Albanian. From father side his grandmother was Illyrian, again Albanian and his grandfather was Macedonian. So he was an Macedonian, of course not a firomski, not serv, as the new retards of servian clan claim.
Who were the ancient Macedonians? Theories based in the language spoken by them are different. For sure they were not greeks. What exactly they were? This we will learn when your psychopathic chauvinism will stop to get involved in this story.

There is a small percentage of authors (not sure if all or most of them are scholars) who support this opinion, even though for most of bibliography they were, hellenized or "equally" Greek (after all, all Greek speakers were hellenized to a degree)

It would be interesting to tell us if that's the official opinion of Albanian scholars, that Macedonians were for sure non-greeks

[Geni]

There is a small percentage of authors (not sure if all or most of them are scholars) who support this opinion, even though for most of bibliography they were, hellenized or "equally" Greek (after all, all Greek speakers were hellenized to a degree)

It would be interesting to tell us if that's the official opinion of Albanian scholars, that Macedonians were for sure non-greeks

The official version of Academy of sciences of Albania says not that macedonians were not greeks....dont be paranoid....

[brennus dux gallorum]

The official version of Academy of sciences of Albania says not that macedonians were not greeks....dont be paranoid....

No you misunderstood, I just asked, without any comment or preoccupation about scholars

[Geni]

North influence ,south influence....we are all what we are ,dont exist cristal pure peoples....every nation is formed so.....who know his ancestor bis to 1DC ? Nobody.....my ancestor with R1b L 23 can be greek and yours albanian....my ancestor in this time were maybe dacian, or thracian,or illyrian or epirotes or maybe italic or i dont know from Which fuck unknown villages that nobody know that exist....

[Laberia]

According to wiki, without going deeper:

Classification Edit

Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[8][page needed] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[9]

A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[10][11][12][13][14]
A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[10][15]
A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[16]
A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")[17] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[18] and Hamp & Adams (2013).[19]
An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[20] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).
An Illyrian dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).

[brennus dux gallorum]

According to wiki, without going deeper:
That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian was not settled as Greek in a few sources of 90s (today it's settled) we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as the biggest part of sources (and lately all) support it

[Köstebek]

North influence ,south influence....we are all what we are ,dont exist cristal pure peoples....every nation is formed so.....who know his ancestor bis to 1DC ? Nobody.....my ancestor with R1b L 23 can be greek and yours albanian....my ancestor in this time were maybe dacian, or thracian,or illyrian or epirotes or maybe italic or i dont know from Which fuck unknown villages that nobody know that exist....

L23 can be anything from Balkan to Armenian, from Bashkir to Turkish. Everybody have it. But especially the east

[wvwvw]

That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian is not settled as Greek, we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as a part of sources support it

Of course it has been settled. No serious scholar disputes their Greekness.

[nightrider+]

That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian is not settled as Greek, we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as a part of sources support it

There's no debate, neither any evidence of a distinct Macedonian language. They spoke Greek, probably a bit influenced from languages of their neighbors.

[Köstebek]

There's no debate, neither any evidence of a distinct Macedonian language. They spoke Greek, probably a bit influenced from languages of their neighbors.

Making such things open to debate is a trap.

[catgeorge]

That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian is not settled as Greek, we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as a part of sources support it

be quiet half brain

Nikopolidis - Epirot
Venetidis - Thracian
Dabizas - Macedonian
Dellas - Macedonian
Zagorakis - Macedonian
Charisteas - Macedonian
Tsiartas - Macedonian
Nikolaidis - Thracian
Katergiannakis - Macedonian
Vryzas - Macedonian
Kafes - Macedonian
Lakis - Macedonian

Without North Greeks - there would be no 2004 Euro championship.

In fact wouldnt even make the tournament finals.

[catgeorge]

Jealousy

In ancient times - we ruled the world
In Medieval times - we ruled Balkans

In modern times we have given Athens a chance (Athens was never a capital of Greece only Pella and Constantinople was) -- but going no where in a hurry.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Of course it has been settled. No serious scholar disputes their Greekness.

I know, and for that reason I said a part of scholars, mainly in the past. We already see that the latest sources classifying it as non-greek are already old and outdated

But claiming that it surely was "non-greek" is far from reality as long as all the latest sources consider it to be Greek

[Peterski]

How hard is it to understand? There are few Slavic cultural traits because the Slavs were Hellenized? block-headed neo-Greek, are you of Arvanite ancestry or what? Or are you just Hellenass's brother?
The Slavs lived completely unmolested just in the Morea, let alone Macedonia, Epirus, Thessalia- for 218 years.

Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

Can you imagine the demographic affect if Syrian Refugees held Attiki for 218 years? And we have shown they continued to exist there (even unassimilated Slavs) for hundreds of years more.

a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%AB...oria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", VII, 13, 24:

"For a great throng of barbarians, the Slavs, had, as it happened, recently crossed the river Danube, plundered the adjoining country, and enslaved a very great number of Romans."

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", III, 3, 9-19:

"The Slavs took the city [of Toperus] in the following manner. Most of them hid themselves in hilly country opposite the walls, and a few of them, going up before the eastern gates, annoyed the Romans on the parapets. The soldiers who were on guard there, thinking that they (Slavs) were no more numerous than those whom they saw, all immediately taking up their weapons, went out against them. The barbarians retreated, giving the appearance to their pursuers that they retreated out of fear. Those in ambush came out now, behind the pursuers, no longer allowing them entry into the city. Those who appeared to be fleeing now turned about and placed the Romans in a position of double attack. Having slain all of them, the barbarians attacked the wall. The inhabitants of the city, deprived of the soldiers, were at a great loss and defended themselves against the attackers with those that remained. First, heating oil and pitch, they poured it on the besiegers and, all of them hurling stones against them, came close to repulsing the danger. But then the barbarians, having driven them back from the parapets by a multitude of arrows and having placed ladders against the wall, took the city by storm. They slew all 15,000 men, plundered all the wealth, and enslaved all the women and children."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 18, 20-21:

"Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overrun by the Slavs, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these invasions, I estimate, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 23, 6:

"The Slavs ravaged all of Europe; captured cities were either razed to their foundations, or made to pay terrible tribute; men were carried off into slavery together with all their property, and every district was deserted by its inhabitants because of the daily raids: yet no tax was remitted, except in the case of cities that had been captured by the enemy, and then only for one year."

John of Ephesus "Historia Ecclesiastica", 6, 25:

"That same year, being the third after the death of emperor Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Slavs, who overran the whole of Greece, and the lands of Thessaly, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they have even ridden up to the outer wall of the city, and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find. And even to this day, being the year 584 AD, they still encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn: and they have grown rich in gold and silver, and herds of horses, and arms, and have learnt to fight better than the Romans, though at first they were but rude savages, who did not venture to shew themselves outside the woods and the coverts of the trees; and as for arms, they did not even know what they were, with the exception of two or three javelins or darts."

Menander Protector, fragments 47 and 48:

"About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces to contain them, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars [to ask him for help against the Slavs]."

Maurice, "Strategikon", 11, 4:

"The Sclavenes and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs. They are both independent, absolutely refusing to be enslaved or ruled by foreigners, least of all in their own land. They are populous and hardy, bearing readily heat, cold, rain, nakedness, and scarcity of provisions. They are kind and hospitable to travellers in their country and conduct them safely from one place to another, wherever they wish. (...) They, unlike other peoples, do not keep those who are in captivity among them in perpetual slavery, but they set a definite period of time for them, after which they give them the choice: either, when they so desire, to return to their own homes if they purchase their freedom, or to stay among them as free people and friends."

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf

"There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows."