Why do Greek users deny that Sicilians/Aegean islanders differ from mainland Greeks?

[Sikeliot]

The denial is really something.

There is NO Aegean island nor part of Sicily where the average person is similar to most mainland Greeks. Nowhere. It is not just the Dodecanese nor western Sicily where they differ. Even Cyclades and southeastern Sicily, the northernmost shifting parts of their regions, are not similar to people in Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, or most of the Peloponnese outside of Laconia.

There is no evidence from ANY study, nor GEDmatch, 23andme, Ancestry.com where all of these populations are equivalent.

It is interesting that Greek users get offended when compared to MENAs, but they are themselves wiping away the differences between themselves and the islanders (and Sicilians, Calabrese, etc) who have much more West Asian ancestry than themselves.

[catgeorge]

The denial is really something.

There is NO Aegean island nor part of Sicily where the average person is similar to most mainland Greeks. Nowhere. It is not just the Dodecanese nor western Sicily where they differ. Even Cyclades and southeastern Sicily, the northernmost shifting parts of their regions, are not similar to people in Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, or most of the Peloponnese outside of Laconia.

There is no evidence from ANY study, nor GEDmatch, 23andme, Ancestry.com where all of these populations are equivalent.

It is interesting that Greek users get offended when compared to MENAs, but they are themselves wiping away the differences between themselves and the islanders (and Sicilians, Calabrese, etc) who have much more West Asian ancestry than themselves.

Eastern Greeks, North Greeks and South Greeks differences are miniscule. Is it really worth dissecting such small percentages that equally exist east/West Germany, North/South Italy, North/South France and they probably have greater differences to greater degree?

You have spent a lifetime posting on Greeks why don't you discuss it with Dienekes instead of daily spamming like a zealot with an axe to grind?

[DarknessWin]

Because we see no difference , especially Cretans actually are more light haired and eyed from mainlanders and have more North types.
Ionian Islands are actually same with Mainland.
Aegeans are a bit more south plotted but difficult spotted differences .....

I see only Cypriots are different and they plot more with dark Sicilians and lighter levantines.
I can spot a Cypriot in the street but i cant spot an Islander

[Sikeliot]

Because we see no difference , especially Cretans actually are more light haired and eyed from mainlanders and have more North types.
Ionian Islands are actually same with Mainland.
Aegeans are a bit more south plotted but difficult spotted differences .....

I see only Cypriots are different and they plot more with dark Sicilians and lighter levantines.
I can spot a Cypriot in the street but i cant spot an Islander

I think phenotypically the islands do not differ much from the mainland but the islands would have slightly more Near Eastern types. Also, western Crete a lot of them look almost NW European somehow or German? I don't think they look so Slavic though.

As for Sicily, I definitely think Sicilians compared to mainland Greeks have a noticeable difference.

[Tauromachos]

The denial is really something.

There is NO Aegean island nor part of Sicily where the average person is similar to most mainland Greeks. Nowhere. It is not just the Dodecanese nor western Sicily where they differ. Even Cyclades and southeastern Sicily, the northernmost shifting parts of their regions, are not similar to people in Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, or most of the Peloponnese outside of Laconia.

There is no evidence from ANY study, nor GEDmatch, 23andme, Ancestry.com where all of these populations are equivalent.

It is interesting that Greek users get offended when compared to MENAs, but they are themselves wiping away the differences between themselves and the islanders (and Sicilians, Calabrese, etc) who have much more West Asian ancestry than themselves.

Because you don't stop trolling Greeks with this Bullshit.

And no,you don't have anything to do with the Greek Islands since you are not Greek.
You would wish to have

[DarknessWin]

Because you don't stop trolling Greeks with this Bullshit.

And no,you don't have anything to do with the Greek Islands since you are not Greek.
You would wish to have

Siceliot is friend and brother of greek people, he just study

[Tauromachos]

Also, western Crete a lot of them look almost NW European somehow or German? I don't think they look so Slavic though.


1)You can find light types like those in NW Crete , on most of the Greek Islands.
All of Crete has light types,even East Crete does.

2)West Cretans can also be very dark.

3)In general Crete has very light and very dark types,but a majority of people in between.

[DarknessWin]

I think phenotypically the islands do not differ much from the mainland but the islands would have slightly more Near Eastern types. Also, western Crete a lot of them look almost NW European somehow or German? I don't think they look so Slavic though.

As for Sicily, I definitely think Sicilians compared to mainland Greeks have a noticeable difference.

Phenotype is what matter , i agree that islanders in DNA plot more south than Mainlanders but their phenotypes have not differences at all .
And yes its true that west Cretans have more NW mix while Mainlanders have more NE mix

[Tauromachos]

Siceliot is friend and brother of greek people, he just study

I don't dislike Sikeliot as a person or think he is a bad guy.
And he may be overall interested in Greeks and feel friendship/sympathy towards them.

But he does not always seem like a real friend and not everything he does is that friendly

Did you ever hear about the strategy divide and conquer..??

[Sikeliot]

I don't dislike Sikeliot as a person or think he is a bad guy.
And he may be overall interested in Greeks and feel friendship/sympathy towards them.

But he does not always seem like a real friend and not everything he does is that friendly

Did you ever hear about the strategy divide and conquer..??

It is not "divide and conquer", it is a genetic FACT that Sicilians are not close overall to mainland Greeks ,and that some of the islands are not particularly close to the mainland either.

[Sikeliot]

I don't dislike Sikeliot as a person or think he is a bad guy.
And he may be overall interested in Greeks and feel friendship/sympathy towards them.

But he does not always seem like a real friend and not everything he does is that friendly

Did you ever hear about the strategy divide and conquer..??

My goal is not to be a "friend" to anyone it is to reveal the truth, and the truth is you are in denial about the genetic and phenotypical differences between mainland Greeks and Sicilians, constantly grouping them together because you wish to erase your people's own NE European input (whether Slavic or Doric, who cares, Sicilians do not share it).

[Tauromachos]

It is not "divide and conquer", it is a genetic FACT that Sicilians are not close overall to mainland Greeks ,and that some of the islands are not particularly close to the mainland either.

Some..? ...perhabs...??



You always group Sicily and Aegean Islands together as if Sicilians where a part of the Aegean Islanders,only because they seem close to some of them
because they can be modelled that way.

You ,an American with Sicilian ancestry who is not fully native Sicilian ,have 0 claims on the Greek Islands!

I know exactly why you want to relate to the Aegean Islands;),everyone wants to claim the Greek Islands as his own"even the Turks",because
the Islands are some of the most beautiful places on Earth and in Greece.
This is the real reason why you doing this,nothing else.

No before you give me thumbs down again,listen carefully to my words and my advise
If you want to relate to the Greek Islands go visit these ,make friends with the locals,learn greek and the local customs
respect the native people.
Perhabs you have luck and will marry a local woman and then you can have Siclian/Greek Island children,which have the luck to
grow up in this beautiful place,..nothing more than that.

[Sikeliot]

Some..? ...perhabs...??



You always group Sicily and Aegean Islands together as if Sicilians where a part of the Aegean Islanders,only because they seem close to some of them
because they are can modelled that way.

You an American with Sicilian ancestry who is not fully native Sicilian ,have 0 claims on the Greek Islands!

I know exactly why you want to relate to the Aegean Islands;),everyone wants to claim the Greek Islands as his own"even the Turks",because
the Islands are some of the most beautiful places on Earth and in Greece.
This is the real reason why you doing this,nothing else.

No before you give me thumbs down again,listen carefully to my words and my advise
If you want to relate to the Greek Islands go visit these ,make friends with the locals,learn greek and the local customs
respect the native people.
Perhabs you have luck and will marry a local woman and then you can have Siclian/Greek Island children,which have the luck to
grow up in this beautiful place,..nothing more than that.


I don't care to BE a Greek islander. But genetically they are closer to Sicilians than to mainland Greeks, and vice versa, this is a fact. It has no bearing on my personal opinion on any group, it is simply a genetic fact that you deny with no tangible evidence.

Seriously, you've provided zero evidence for a single one of your claims. You realize you provided insufficient evidence to win in a high school debate team, let alone in a discussion on scientific fact? You would be laughed out of the room in any serious discussion because you have no evidence, only wishful thinking and insults.

[Tauromachos]

My goal is not to be a "friend" to anyone it is to reveal the truth, and the truth is you are in denial about the genetic and phenotypical differences between mainland Greeks and Sicilians, constantly grouping them together because you wish to erase your people's own NE European input (whether Slavic or Doric, who cares, Sicilians do not share it).

And from where do you know,where my ancestry is from and if i have this input?

[Sikeliot]

And from where do you know,where my ancestry is from and if i have this input?

I mean mainland Greeks have it, Sicilians not so stop grouping them together. People in Macedonia, Thessaly, Epirus not descended from Anatolian Greeks are often even closer to Bulgaria. I do not care if you think they look it or not, they have the northern input and this is a fact. Stop grouping yourself with either Aegean islanders OR Sicilians to evade this fact. It cannot be denied, it has been cited in studies and is clearly evident.

[Tauromachos]

I don't care to BE a Greek islander. But genetically they are closer to Sicilians than to mainland Greeks, and vice versa, this is a fact. It has no bearing on my personal opinion on any group, it is simply a genetic fact that you deny with no tangible evidence.

Seriously, you've provided zero evidence for a single one of your claims. You realize you provided insufficient evidence to win in a high school debate team, let alone in a discussion on scientific fact? You would be laughed out of the room in any serious discussion because you have no evidence, only wishful thinking and insults.

Disagreeing with you is not insulting.
You didn't provide real evidence for your claims neither

[Sikeliot]

Disagreeing with you is not insulting.
You didn't provide real evidence for your claims neither

Insulting me for being autistic is insulting me.

And here, this thread clearly refutes what you are saying:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217724

[Tauromachos]

I mean mainland Greeks have it, Sicilians not so stop grouping them together. People in Macedonia, Thessaly, Epirus not descended from Anatolian Greeks are often even closer to Bulgaria. I do not care if you think they look it or not, they have the northern input and this is a fact. Stop grouping yourself with either Aegean islanders OR Sicilians to evade this fact. It cannot be denied, it has been cited in studies and is clearly evident.

I can group together whom i want to group together."as for Greek people"
You see 30% differences i see 70% similarities
Greek is what Greek says,for at least 2500 years,you won't change peoples identity and 2500 years of history with Gedmatch examples.

You group Sicilians,Jews and Island Greeks together.
I group different Greek people together...

You want others to respect you and your identity,first learn to respect other peoples identity..

[Sikeliot]

I can group together whom i want to group together.
You see 30% differences i see 70% similarities
Greek is what Greek says,for at least 2500 you won't change peoples identity and 2500 years of history with Gedmatch examples.

You group Sicilians,Jews and Island Greeks together.
I group different Greek people together...

You want others to respect you and your Identity,first learn to respect other peoples identity..

Of course I see the 30% differences because they are obvious.

I don't care whether you group Greeks together but stop grouping people with 30% Northeast Euro with Sicilians, who do not have such input. At least try to engage with the evidence that demonstrates why you are incorrect.

You deny the parts of us that are relevant when you group us with mainland Greeks also!

[Tauromachos]

Of course I see the 30% differences because they are obvious.

I don't care whether you group Greeks together but stop grouping people with 30% Northeast Euro with Sicilians, who do not have such input. At least try to engage with the evidence that demonstrates why you are incorrect.

You deny the parts of us that are relevant when you group us with mainland Greeks also!

Again you are lying and dishonest, i didn't group people with 30% North East Euro with Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

Again you are lying and dishonest, i didn't group people with 30% North East Euro with Sicilians.


You did if you group them with mainland Greeks.

[Tauromachos]

Stop grouping yourself with either Aegean islanders OR Sicilians to evade this fact. It cannot be denied, it has been cited in studies and is clearly evident.

Myself..?
As i told you ,you don't know where i'm from and what ancestry do i have,who are you to talk to me this way.
When you don't even speak one word of Greek

Hypocrite!


People in Macedonia, Thessaly, Epirus not descended from Anatolian Greeks are often even closer to Bulgaria

As Hellenas and a significant part of Greeks i have mixed Greek ancestry,but have 0 Epirote or Macedonian or Thessalian.

You don't realy know what you are talking about and its sad

Respect me Dude

[Sikeliot]

Myself..?
As i told you you don't know where i'm from and what ancestry do i have,who are you to talk to me this way.
When you don't even speak one word of Greek

Hypocrite!

As Hellenas and a significant part of Greeks i have mixed Greek ancestry,but have 0 Epirote or Macedonian.

You don't realy know what you ar talking about and its said


I never claimed to be Greek. I don't WANT to be Greek. It is Greeks here who want to be southern Italian!

I do not trust Greeks to write about their own genetics or publish studies on it either, all it will be is laden with bias. It is YOU, the lot of you who want to be like southern Italians because that way you don't have to cope with your 30% Slavic invader ancestry, especially because that study showed Mycenaeans plotting nearer southern Italians -- even though you should not be using that plot to get all pissy with us because calculators show they plot there by coincidence and have entirely different components!

[Tauromachos]

Us?
You only have Sicilian ancestry..

No, i don't want to be Southern Italian,i'm Greek.
Neither Slav,Albanian nor Southern Italian,but what my ethnicity says.


I'm not responsible for what every Greek here does

You said

I do not trust Greeks to write about their own genetics or publish studies on it either,

Why should they trust you writing about genetics?

There where never Slavic Invadors in Greece,at least not at those places where my ancestry is
from.

What about Norman and Spanish Invadors in Sicily?
Sicily was invaded alot of times,even by Arabs lol

[Sikeliot]

What about Norman and Spanish Invadors in Sicily?
Sicily was invaded alot of times,even by Arabs lol

You are the one denying the Arab input when you compare Sicilians to mainland Greeks. And the Spanish influence is present in a few towns ,and the Norman in part of Trapani but its low.

[Tauromachos]

^^Laberia:rolleyes:

@Sikeliot

Stop lying ,hypocrite.
I never denied this kind of inputs in Sicily.

[Сербо Макеридов]

At K12b Albanians from Kosovo have 26,75% North Euro on average, I guess that Greeks have between 20-25% depending on the region.

[Tauromachos]

Insulting me for being autistic is insulting me.

And here, this thread clearly refutes what you are saying:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217724

Feeling insulted because someone calls you autistic in the given context where i did so is
narcissism.

No if you want to feel insulted again by this statement"saying its narcissism".
Feel insulted.

[Sizzo]

Sikeliot, seriously, and without any offence or trivialization: why do you insist so much with the "levantiness" of Southern Italians? What is your purpose? It looks like an obsession.

[DarknessWin]

Us?
You only have Sicilian ancestry..

No, i don't want to be Southern Italian,i'm Greek.
Neither Slav,Albanian nor Southern Italian,but what my ethnicity says.


I'm not responsible for what every Greek here does

You said


Why should they trust you writing about genetics?

There where never Slavic Invadors in Greece,at least not at those places where my ancestry is
from.

What about Norman and Spanish Invadors in Sicily?
Sicily was invaded alot of times,even by Arabs lol

Sikeliot is right about the Dorian genes in Mainland Greeks and many of us have genes from NE europe.
Its wrong that he plot it with slavs, its not slavic but Dorian.

This dont exist in Islanders (except Cretans) because majority of Islanders were Ionians so native Pelasgians

It true that Sicilians plot closer to Cyprus while Greeks plot in betwin Italians and Bulgarians

Dont forget that Bulgarians are not slavs either, they speak slavic language but the majority of them are Thracians.
Ancient Tribe close to Ancient Greeks

[brennus dux gallorum]

First of all, let alone sicilians, you already know my opinion about each region of the island (which as I said, it implicitly predated my sign up here)

I personally deny the "mainland-islands" division, because there is evidently a continuum from the most "northern" parts of mainland, to the most "southern" island, with differences among regions, which obviously do not allow the creation of a "mainland" or an "islands" category, as neither mainland is homogenous, nor the islands with each other. Also, I repeat, continuum, not overlap.

As in all countries there are northern and southern exotic individuals/groups, without that meaning that they are somehow not part of the further genetic group (in that case the Greek group)

No, I will never see cretans as closer to Lebanese than to patrians or lamiotes. Even the most "levantine shifted" Cretans I have seen have a part of Greece in their top 5 distance, consider how closer the rest are

I am personally half islander half mainlander, and as far as I know in 2017 nearly half of Greek population has full or mixed islandic population, and I see no reason to associate the islands with Sicily, just because a few outliers are genetically closer to the most Greek shifted part of sicilians than to the rest of Greeks

The last but not least :you overemphasize thessaly, Macedonia and epirus. All of the natives (non anatolians) in these regions together represent about the 20-30% of the country's population

So, if I had to sum, I deny it because 1)there is no "mainland genetic category", neither "islands genetic category", but each region either in mainland or in the islands has its own genetic identity, with all of them belonging to the Greek continuum

[Freeroostah]

Sikeliot, seriously, and without any offence or trivialization: why do you insist so much with the "levantiness" of Southern Italians? What is your purpose? It looks like an obsession.

He wants to pass as non-white...like many Americans with inferiority complex

[wvwvw]

It's good to be different and have both genetic or phenotypical variation.

[Tauromachos]

Sikeliot is right about the Dorian genes in Mainland Greeks and many of us have genes from NE europe.
Its wrong that he plot it with slavs, its not slavic but Dorian.

This dont exist in Islanders (except Cretans) because majority of Islanders were Ionians so native Pelasgians

Ironically it was the South East Aegean Islands which where populated by Dorians.
That is Dodecanisia Rhodos,Kos,Karpathos,Kalymnos e.c.t

But not Cyprus which was Achaean,neither Dorian nor Ionian.

No Dorians weren't restricted to the Mainland and Crete only,but i'm not debating this here anymore,if you wish you can PM me and we can talk about it.




Dont forget that Bulgarians are not slavs either, they speak slavic language but the majority of them are Thracians.
Ancient Tribe close to Ancient Greeks This is possible

[DarknessWin]

Ironically it was the South East Aegean Islands which where populated by Dorians.
That is Dodecanisia Rhodos,Kos,Karpathos,Kalymnos e.c.t

But not Cyprus which was Achaean,neither Dorian nor Ionian.

No Dorians weren't restricted to the Mainland and Crete only,but i'm not debating this here anymore,if you wish you can PM me and we can talk about it.


This is possible

Dorians populated mostly Mainland and Crete and some of them also south east Aegean islands

[Sizzo]

Where does this MENA admixture of Southern Italians come from?

[wvwvw]

Where does this MENA admixture of Southern Italians come from?

A new paper on bronze age Sicily will be out soon, we'll find out then.

[Sizzo]

A new paper on bronze age Sicily will be out soon, we'll find out then.

Is this stuff "recent", then? Not Neolithic at all? In Central-Northern Italians is absent but I don't understand if was carried by Neolithic invaders from Eastern Mediterranean (while in North Italy the Neolithic substratum seems more Danubian or Balcanic) or by Bronze Age people (e.g. Phoenicians).

[wvwvw]

Is this stuff "recent", then? Not Neolithic at all? In Central-Northern Italians is absent but I don't understand if was carried by Neolithic invaders from Eastern Mediterranean (while in North Italy the Neolithic substratum seems more Danubian or Balcanic) or by Bronze Age people (e.g. Phoenicians).

Good question..it may well be Neolithic in Sicily and some of it may have come later.

[wvwvw]

I just find it hard to believe that it may have come later. There is no record of any invasion from the east.

[Sizzo]

I just find it hard to believe that it may have come later. There is no record of any invasion from the east.

Exactly, that's the point: if "Arabs" and Normans have left almost nothing why should Phoenicians, or others do? Even the Greek impact on Southern Italy is overrated: it was pratically along the coasts. I guess the similarity between S. Italy and Greece is not due to Greek colonization but caused by a similar genetic mix.

[EL_BARBARO]

I didn't know they denied it. I'm kwoing right now.

[wvwvw]

Exactly, that's the point: if "Arabs" and Normans have left almost nothing why should Phoenicians, or others do? Even the Greek impact on Southern Italy is overrated: it was pratically along the coasts. I guess the similarity between S. Italy and Greece is not due to Greek colonization but caused by a similar genetic mix.

The Greek influence isn't overrated at all. When the Greeks first arrived to Italy (which was a Greek colony since the time of Saturn/Cronos, they found empty or "thinly populated" lands, and all the ancient historians name the Greeks as the aboriginals of the country. Myceanean colonization on not just the South but also in Central and even North Italy was very extensive. Basically every kind of Greek tribes have settled in Italy.

My guess is that the Middle Eastern in Sicilians came from Jews or from the Carthagians.

[wvwvw]

I didn't know they denied it. I'm kwoing right now.

Nobody denied it, it's just Sikeliot wants us to deny that we are related to them. She wants us to admit we are a different species, even when genetics prove him wrong.

[Sizzo]

The Greek influence isn't overrated at all. When the Greeks first arrived to Italy (which was a Greek colony since the time of Saturn/Cronos, they found empty or "thinly populated" lands, and all the ancient historians name the Greeks as the aboriginals of the country. Myceanean colonization on not just the South but also in Central and even North Italy was very extensive. Basically every kind of Greek tribes have settled in Italy.

My guess is that the Middle Eastern in Sicilians came from Jews or from the Carthagians.

Myceneans in Northern Italy?! Where and when? We are talking about genetics, not culture, however. North Italy was not even "Italy" in those times, let alone a Greek colony...

[EL_BARBARO]

Nobody denied it, it's just Sikeliot wants us to deny that we are related to them. She wants us to admit we are a different species, even when genetics prove him wrong.


I do know it quite well, hence my post.

It is the typical answer taking as true a lie including in the question.

Quite childish and clumsy, on the other hand.

[catgeorge]

Sicilians are more European than Germans genetically. Germans have too much N + Q Y DNA whilst Sicilians carry 3.5% J1 but zero N + Q which makes them 96.5% European blooded genetically . North Germany is 96% . North Italy is 98.5% and one of the more purest Europeans. Again we are talking about miniscule percentages

[wvwvw]

Myceneans in Northern Italy?! Where and when? We are talking about genetics, not culture, however. North Italy was not even "Italy" in those times, let alone a Greek colony...

Yes we are talking about genetics too. Central Italians and Southern Italians are as close to Myceneans as are the Greeks.

By North Italy I meant Etruria where Greeks settled "above the Tyrrhenians". The Pelasgian and the Myceneans were one and the same. In Etruria lived a dozen of unrelated tribes like the native Tuscans, the Maonian Tyrsenoi, Corinthians, and many others.

See this Grecita Adriatica - Hellenikos Kolpos
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?182838-Grecita-Adriatica-Hellenikos-Kolpos

Greeks also had colonies in the Adriiatic as well as in Southern France

[Sizzo]

Yes we are talking about genetics too. Central Italians and Southern Italians are as close to Myceneans as are the Greeks.

By North Italy I meant Etruria where Greeks settled "above the Tyrrhenians". The Pelasgian and the Myceneans were one and the same. In Etruria lived a dozen of unrelated tribes like the native Tuscans, the Maonian Tyrsenoi, Corinthians, and many others.

See this Grecita Adriatica - Hellenikos Kolpos
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?182838-Grecita-Adriatica-Hellenikos-Kolpos

Greeks also had colonies in the Adriiatic as well as in Southern France

Being close doesn't necessarily means the same people. These Myceneans were more similar to West Sicilians or Sardinians, if I don't mistaken. And, however, call "Greek" an ancient people is like call "Lombardian" Golaseccan one. After Cavalli-Sforza the only Greek signal in Northern Italy is in Romagna, around Ferrara and Ravenna, caused probably by Byzantines. The main genetic part of (all) Italy is Neolithic, for sure not "Greek", least of all the northern half of the Peninsula.

[Sikeliot]

A new paper on bronze age Sicily will be out soon, we'll find out then.

I think Bronze Age Sicilians will be like Mycenaeans.

My guess is the extra MENA is an accumulation of small and individually insignificant bits of Phoenician, Jewish, Carthaginian, and Arab and that together they just add up.

[Sikeliot]

Being close doesn't necessarily means the same people. These Myceneans were more similar to West Sicilians or Sardinians, if I don't mistaken.

Be careful with this one. "West Sicily" on most calculators is a Trapani sample. Trapani is genetically a bit northward and westward shifting compared to the rest of geographic western Sicily like Palermo, Agrigento, etc.

See here to see this visually from a study: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218976

And I am not denying Greece is *related to* Sicily, I am denying that mainlanders -- any of them -- are identical to Sicilians and don't have extra North European type mixture.

[wvwvw]

Being close doesn't necessarily means the same people. These Myceneans were more similar to West Sicilians or Sardinians, if I don't mistaken. And, however, call "Greek" an ancient people is like call "Lombardian" Golaseccan one. After Cavalli-Sforza the only Greek signal in Northern Italy is in Romagna, around Ferrara and Ravenna, caused probably by Byzantines. The main genetic part of (all) Italy is Neolithic, for sure not "Greek", least of all the northern half of the Peninsula.

You are mistaken, both the Minoans and Myceaneans were closest to Greeks.

It doesn't mean the same people, since Italians have not remained the same in the past 2000 years. Still the Greek colonization of Italy is well documented and extensively covered by both Greek and Roman historians and archeological and genetic prove is evident.

[Sikeliot]

You are mistaken, both the Minoans and Myceaneans were closest to Greeks.

It doesn't mean the same people, since Italians have not remained the same in the past 2000 years. Still the Greek colonization of Italy is well documented and extensively covered by both Greek and Roman historians and archeological and genetic prove is evident.


Southeast Sicily region -- which indeed shifts north of the rest of the island even more than Trapani does -- shifts toward Greece and this is where the most Greeks settled. It is from that region we got the Paschou et al study's sample which ended up near Crete and Laconia.

[wvwvw]

Be careful with this one. "West Sicily" on most calculators is a Trapani sample. Trapani is genetically a bit northward and westward shifting compared to the rest of geographic western Sicily like Palermo, Agrigento, etc.

See here to see this visually from a study: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218976

And I am not denying Greece is *related to* Sicily, I am denying that mainlanders -- any of them -- are identical to Sicilians and don't have extra North European type mixture.

Of course we are not identical to Sicilians, why would we want to be? Greeks were similar to Sicilians 2000 and 2,500 years ago. Since then both have had different influences. Both belong to different ethnic groups now.

[Sikeliot]

Of course we are not identical to Sicilians, why would we want to be? Greeks were similar to Sicilians 2000 and 2,500 years ago. Since then both have had different influences. Both belong to different ethnic groups now.

The southern Aegean islanders are indisputably closer genetically to Sicilians than to mainland Greeks though, borders and citizenship aside.

[catgeorge]

The southern Aegean islanders are indisputably closer genetically to Sicilians than to mainland Greeks though, borders and citizenship aside.

Not even close.

Sicilians have 50% more R1b than Islanders.

[wvwvw]

Not even close.

Sicilians have 50% more R1b than Islanders.

A founder effect. But Peloponnesus and the Aegean have significant R1b too.

[wvwvw]

The southern Aegean islanders are indisputably closer genetically to Sicilians than to mainland Greeks though, borders and citizenship aside.

I am not disputing that, still we are more closely related to them and to Cypriots than we are to Slavs.

[catgeorge]

A founder effect. But Peloponnesus and the Aegean have significant R1b too.

I am just saying what Sikeliot is spruiking is factually incorrect

Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T ▴ Q N Sample size
Aegean Islands
3 3 2.5 10 19 8.5 20 3 22 6 0 0

Greece

3.5 9.5 1.5 11.5 15.5 6.5 23 3 21 4.5 0 0

Sicily

3.5 3 1 4.5 26 8.5 23 3.5 20.5 4 1 0

South Italy

2.5 3.5 1 3 27.5 10.5 21.5 4 18.5 2.5 0 0


Aegean Islands is genetically closest to Greek mainland. This gypsy is an idiot.

[wvwvw]

I am just saying what Sikeliot is spruiking is factually incorrect

Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T ▴ Q N Sample size
Aegean Islands
3 3 2.5 10 19 8.5 20 3 22 6 0 0

Greece

3.5 9.5 1.5 11.5 15.5 6.5 23 3 21 4.5 0 0

Sicily

3.5 3 1 4.5 26 8.5 23 3.5 20.5 4 1 0

South Italy

2.5 3.5 1 3 27.5 10.5 21.5 4 18.5 2.5 0 0


Aegean Islands is genetically closest to Greek mainland. This gypsy is an idiot.

He means their averages are more similar to Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

He means their averages are more similar to Sicilians.

I mean autosomal. Not paternal lines

By paternal lines Aegean islands have more R1a and i2 than Sicily but no autosomal effect.

[catgeorge]

I mean autosomal. Not paternal lines

By paternal lines Aegean islands have more R1a and i2 than Sicily but no autosomal effect.

if you are interested in the Mycenean study and use it for your dementia then only the Big Y matters and you are some 25% off. Sicily is closer to Southern and Central Italy not Aegean Islands so pull your finger out.

[brennus dux gallorum]

The southern Aegean islanders are indisputably closer genetically to Sicilians than to mainland Greeks though, borders and citizenship aside.

But they are still closer to other Aegean islands (cyclades, some north Aegean etc) than to Sicily, and these "other Aegean islands" are closer to South mainland, and South mainland closer to central mainland etc

All that is called "genetic continuum", all the people within this continuum are genetically Greeks, not matters if they are from Crete or Macedonia

*when we say south Aegean islands are close to Sicily we obviously mean particular parts of the island, no way the extremely levantine shifted with almost zero Greek influence

[Sizzo]

You are mistaken, both the Minoans and Myceaneans were closest to Greeks.

It doesn't mean the same people, since Italians have not remained the same in the past 2000 years. Still the Greek colonization of Italy is well documented and extensively covered by both Greek and Roman historians and archeological and genetic prove is evident.

I've seen a oracle and the first result isn't any sort of Greeks: I don't remember if Sicilians or Sardinians, so a mix of west and east. Btw, about Northern Italy, talking about Mycenean is laughable: the only genetic Greek influence you can find here is in the Adriatic area of Romagna (maybe little of something near Liguria, because of Nice and Phocaeans colonies). No Greek colonization here. And you are mistaken: Italy is, practically, the same of Roman times: neither Germanic tribes nor Byzantines or Arabs have modified our genetic pool. If we are diverse is caused by pre-Roman times.

[Sizzo]

Maybe someone could say "Etruscan civilization", but Etruscans was, basically, autochtonous with a protovillanovian (Italic) admixture and, then, a later East Med influence (Villanova culture). Furthermore, Greeks have left nothing in our dialects (Gallo-Italic family); maybe just some terms in Venetian, as piron, "fork".

[Inquizzzitor]

Because we see no difference , especially Cretans actually are more light haired and eyed from mainlanders and have more North types.
Ionian Islands are actually same with Mainland.
Aegeans are a bit more south plotted but difficult spotted differences .....

I see only Cypriots are different and they plot more with dark Sicilians and lighter levantines.
I can spot a Cypriot in the street but i cant spot an Islander

You do realize that phenotype is not the same thing as genotype, don't you?

[Sikeliot]

You do realize that phenotype is not the same thing as genotype, don't you?

Some Greek users here are using every tactic to dismiss that southern islanders are closer to southern Italians than to mainland Greeks because they don't want to own their Slavic influence.

[Inquizzzitor]

I'm not convinced the influence is Slavic...but it is something NE shifted.

[Dorian]

I wonder what your ending will be sikeliot,you know some people when they become older they get crazy I can visualize you in an asylum repeating"aegean islanders are sicilian-shifted" "mainlands are slavic-you can't deny that" before the injection...(joking..)

[Tauromachos]

You do realize that phenotype is not the same thing as genotype, don't you?


And what do you know about Greeks.?

An American with Sicilian,French,British,German ancestry....

[Sikeliot]

I'm not convinced the influence is Slavic...but it is something NE shifted.

Whatever it is, Sicilians lack it. That is the point. It could be Slavic or it could not.

[Sizzo]

Whatever it is, Sicilians lack it. That is the point. It could be Slavic or it could not.

It could be Dorian or Slavic; it's not a surprise that Sicily (an island) hasn't got the same IE amount of mainland Greece. And I guess that's the main difference between Sicilians and continental Greeks: I'm quite skeptical, actually, that Sicily, or Southern Italy as a whole, are more (modern) Levantine, pseudo-Jewish, Middle-Eastern or whatever than Greece, and I don't believe also at that rubbish according to which modern Italians are descendant of MENA freed slaves (the liberti) from everywhere in Mediterranean basin. My curiosity is rather addressed at the Italic heritage of Southerners, but we haven't got ancient samples of Latino-Faliscans and Osco-Umbrians to make comparison. There were also in Sicily Italic peoples: Morgetes, Mamertines, Sicels. Sicani and Elymians, instead, could be Ibero-Ligurian-like (as you know there are connections between Ligurian and western Sicilian place names, such as Entella, Segesta, Erix-Lerici). I've always thought that western Sicily could be more nw-shifted compared to the central-eastern half not so much for Normans as for BBK or megalithic input. Obviously we can't forget Lombardians colonies in central-eastern Trinacria.

[Sikeliot]

I've always thought that western Sicily could be more nw-shifted compared to the central-eastern half not so much for Normans as for BBK or megalithic input. Obviously we can't forget Lombardians colonies in central-eastern Trinacria.

It isn't. Trapani is northwest shifted, Ragusa/Syracuse northeast shifted (IMO the latter is in fact due to mainland Greek input), but Palermo/Agrigento/Caltanissetta are actually the part of the island that shifts most toward the Levant. I don't think there is substantial MENA input from any one group. I rather think small, individually insignificant bits of Phoenician, Arab, Moorish, Carthaginian, and Jewish all added together cause this to be true.

See this result for instance, it is from Palermo. The odd thing is, the results get instantly more "exotic" once you cross the border from Trapani into Palermo.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218959-NW-Sicily-GEdmatch-result-(Cinisi-Partinico-Palermo)-more-MENA-shifted

[Cornaro]

Of course I see the 30% differences because they are obvious.

I don't care whether you group Greeks together but stop grouping people with 30% Northeast Euro with Sicilians, who do not have such input. At least try to engage with the evidence that demonstrates why you are incorrect.

You deny the parts of us that are relevant when you group us with mainland Greeks also!

:coffee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZUJKXs6W-4

[Queen B]

1) Greeks don't care about Sicilians. Nowhere but your threads I have seen/hear about Greeks playing with the DNA of Sicilians in comparison to Greek
2) You always assume that from ancient times to now, Greeks had been one tribe/group with identical DNA (with no evidence).
3) Any ''close'' or ''different'' to Sicilian, Lebanese and all that shit, is all started by you.

Geez. After all these years, still #Sicilians #Lebanese #northshifted #Slavic ,etc

[Joliemome]

Sikeliot, seriously, and without any offence or trivialization: why do you insist so much with the "levantiness" of Southern Italians? What is your purpose? It looks like an obsession.

Ahah yes, a bad obsession! In this thread here https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?270311-Classify-4-Sicilians-guy-and-where-they-pass-individually,
they posted random photos of four Sicilian (?) guys (there is no proof or evidence that these guys are actual Sicilians though), and in one of these photos there's Tina Cipollari next to one guy. Obviously they didn't know who she was, so they assumed she was also Sicilian (she's not at all Sicilian, she's from Viterbo, Northern Lazio) and she automatically became Levantine too Ahahaha ridiculous

They also troll about our history and culture. In another thread https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?269189-Calabria-Italy-GEDMatch-results-with-towns-or-counties-listed
he says "Calabria didn't really have the Normans". However, not only Calabria was ruled by the Normans, but nowadays you can still find plenty of traces and ruins of Norman architecture and castles in Calabria .

http://www.calabriaonline.com/coltour/da_visitare/castelli/castelli_normanni/index.php

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Norman_castles_in_Calabria