Balkan Cultural/Genetic Divisions

[badabum]

What do you guys think about these Cultural and Genetic divisions.

I know the retardeness that can come off of these Balkan countries but aren't you people tired of being used as pawns in the big boys game?

1. Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro (representive of the most Balkanic culture and genes)

2. Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia (Representing an even mix of Balkanic and Slavic/Northern European cultural and genetic diffusion)

3. Romania, Moldova (Uniquely Balkanic with influences from exterior people and cultures)

4. Hungaria (An intermediate country from Balkan to Europe)

5. Serbia (A huge mix of these Balkan zones)

https://i.imgur.com/j8CvHBZ.png

[War Chef]

Strongly disagree. Split the red into:

1. Greece

2. Macedonia + Bulgaria

3. Montenegro + Kosovo + Albania + western Macedonia (Albanian minority)

[badabum]

Strongly disagree. Split the red into:

1. Greece

2. Macedonia + Bulgaria

3. Montenegro + Kosovo + Albania + western Macedonia (Albanian minority)

It is really hard to dissect Albania and Greece, Macedonia from Bulgaria or Albania/Greece, Montenegro From Albania, Bulgaria from Macedonia/Greece. I feel as though it is one continuous people.

[Mingle]

B&H and Montenegro should be grouped with Serbia.

Bulgaria and Macedonia should be grouped with Romania.

[Seya]

u made a mess

[brennus dux gallorum]

:picard2:
Greece is from any non-geographical aspect a mediterranean, non-Balkan country
https://www.europacapital.com/~/media/Images/E/Europa-Capital/content-images/region-image/map-southerneurope.jpg
http://www.city-data.com/forum/europe/2858938-why-greece-not-balkans-eastern-europe.html
http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5229d846ecad041d0f00d7e4-1190-625/the-lewis-model-explains-every-culture-in-the-world.jpg

should I even anounce you that in both scientific and common sense, Greece is not even part of balkans, but part of mediterranean Europe from every aspect?


Balkans, also called Balkan Peninsula, easternmost of Europe’s three great southern peninsulas. There is not universal agreement on the region’s components. The Balkans are usually characterized as comprising Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia, and Slovenia—with all or part of each of those countries located within the peninsula. Portions of Greece and Turkey are also located within the geographic region generally defined as the Balkan Peninsula,

Greece, because its northern regions of Epirus and Macedonia are often considered parts of the Balkans, also appears on many lists of Balkan states, but it is arguably better characterized as primarily a Mediterranean country.

source:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Balkans

bonus:
http://brennusduxgalorum.blogspot.gr/2017/11/yes-greece-is-western-too-reasons.html

[Stears]

Idiot uneducated monkey! Hungary does not part of the orthodox-muslim balkanite world.

[badabum]

:picard2:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/europe/2858938-why-greece-not-balkans-eastern-europe.html
http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5229d846ecad041d0f00d7e4-1190-625/the-lewis-model-explains-every-culture-in-the-world.jpg

should I even anounce you that in both scientific and common sense, Greece is not even part of balkans, but part of mediterranean Europe from every aspect?

There a point in your life, you have to take the big cock out of your ass.

[badabum]

Idiot uneducated monkey! Hungary does not part of the orthodox-muslim balkanite world.

Since when?

[Lavrentis]

Shitty map.

[Stears]

Since when?

Maybe you are confused, because many balkanite countries have been our vassals.

No academic historian or scholar associate Hungary with the oriental balkanites.

[brennus dux gallorum]

There a point in your life, you have to take the big cock out of your ass.

typical retarded hooligan who wants civilized Greece to be associated with his country:


Balkans, also called Balkan Peninsula, easternmost of Europe’s three great southern peninsulas. There is not universal agreement on the region’s components. The Balkans are usually characterized as comprising Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia, and Slovenia—with all or part of each of those countries located within the peninsula. Portions of Greece and Turkey are also located within the geographic region generally defined as the Balkan Peninsula,

Greece, because its northern regions of Epirus and Macedonia are often considered parts of the Balkans, also appears on many lists of Balkan states, but it is arguably better characterized as primarily a Mediterranean country.

source:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Balkans

i even cited a URL, and just tell me what picture of Greece in the URL reminds you of any in your country, dumb?

Not ot mention that no part of Hungary is even mentioned

[Stears]

Geographically Greece is the most balkanic country, because only the Greece is real peninsula. and do not forget Byzantine influence, which characterize the balkan, comes from Greece.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Geographically Greece is the most balkanic country, because only the Greece is real peninsula. and do not forget Byzantine influence, which characterize the balkan, comes from Greece.

I would like to remind you that apart from the fact that most of southern Europe (actually as a whole,except of Portugal and northern spain) has also been part of the Byzantine empire, Greece has been non-Byzantine too, with such non-Byzantine influence being more recent. For more info in the link, but i have another idiot to deal with right now

http://brennusduxgalorum.blogspot.gr/2017/11/yes-greece-is-western-too-reasons.html

[Stears]

I would like to remind you that apart from the fact that most of southern Europe (actually as a whole,except of Portugal and northern spain) has also been part of the Byzantine empire, Greece has been non-Byzantine too, with such non-Byzantine influence being more recent. For more info in the link, but i have another idiot to deal with right now

http://brennusduxgalorum.blogspot.gr/2017/11/yes-greece-is-western-too-reasons.html

My post was mostly about geography.

[Lavrentis]

Geographically Greece is the most balkanic country, because only the Greece is real peninsula.

Wrong. Greece has a lot of islands.


and do not forget Byzantine influence, which characterize the balkan, comes from Greece.

So just because Greeks influenced Balkanites, Greeks are Balkan? It's simple: Balkanites (mostly Albanians and Bulgarians) have some little Greek influence. Greece has Balkan influences too, but they mostly came with assimilated people who are a minority.

[RN97]

:picard2:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/europe/2858938-why-greece-not-balkans-eastern-europe.html
http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png
[IMG

lol, no one wants to be part of the Balkans, but riddle me this. What is "the balkans" even as a cultural sphere, or even a geographical region? What is textbook Balkan in terms of culture for example? Because I'd then argue that based upon that standard basically all nations have somewhat of an argument for not being "balkan" really. If for example Albania is the standard, then who is Balkan? Everyone except for maybe Bosnia could argue their way out of the cultural region. Whatever though....

However, you've seemed to post one of the most out-dated PCA plots there are. I can't even find it's origins, but there are plenty of newer ones, a lot of which puts the bulk of Greeks with Albanians in terms of genetics. I don't see this obsession of trying to divide European countries in these minute regions. Greece would be southeastern Europe geographically due to it being the southeastern-most nation in Europe. However most countries that aren't on the borders of Europe are really quite abstract and personal opinion and agenda influences what regions they're placed in a lot.

[brennus dux gallorum]

My post was mostly about geography.

geographically yes, we are, but this map out of his wishfull ass is not at all about geography. Every idiot who has no idea about my country has already an opinion about it

[brennus dux gallorum]

lol, no one wants to be part of the Balkans, but riddle me this. What is "the balkans" even as a cultural sphere, or even a geographical region? What is textbook Balkan in terms of culture for example? Because I'd then argue that based upon that standard basically all nations have somewhat of an argument for not being "balkan" really. If for example Albania is the standard, then who is Balkan? Everyone except for maybe Bosnia could argue their way out of the cultural region. Whatever though....

I would say that I see South Slavic countries (except of Croatia and Slovenia, partially Montenegro too) as part of the same culture, and Albania as something on its own, and Greece having a definetely unique mediterranean charachter

[Lavrentis]

lol, no one wants to be part of the Balkans, but riddle me this. What is "the balkans" even as a cultural sphere, or even a geographical region? What is textbook Balkan in terms of culture for example? Because I'd then argue that based upon that standard basically all nations have somewhat of an argument for not being "balkan" really. If for example Albania is the standard, then who is Balkan? Everyone except for maybe Bosnia could argue their way out of the cultural region. Whatever though....

However, you've seemed to post one of the most out-dated PCA plots there are. I can't even find it's origins, but there are plenty of newer ones, a lot of which puts the bulk of Greeks with Albanians in terms of genetics. I don't see this obsession of trying to divide European countries in these minute regions. Greece would be southeastern Europe geographically due to it being the southeastern-most nation in Europe. However most countries that aren't on the borders of Europe are really quite abstract and personal opinion and agenda influences what regions they're placed in a lot.

Greeks have nothing against Bulgarians, Albanians etc, but we don't feel related to them. So people get surprised when Greece is considered the same entity with the mentioned countries. Is it wrong to say that Greece is a Mediterranean country?

[Stears]

geographically yes, we are, but this map out of his wishfull ass is not at all about geography. Every idiot who has no idea about my country has already an opinion about it

The Balkan is not geographical term in the reality. Because Romania geographically not balkanite country, but their culture and genetics is.

[Peterski]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SxC7k7UyBE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAxH4Diezvg

[brennus dux gallorum]

The Balkan is not geographical term in the reality. Because Romania geographically not balkanite country, but their culture and genetics is.

I can't talk for Romania, as I have never been there, but i can talk about my own country, which has mainly a non-Balkan identity

[badabum]

I can't talk for Romania, as I have never been there, but i can talk about my own country, which has mainly a non-Balkan identity

LOLL. Since when?

People seem to make up their own things in here

[RN97]

I would say that I see South Slavic countries (except of Croatia and Slovenia, partially Montenegro too) as part of the same culture, and Albania as something on its own, and Greece having a definetely unique mediterranean charachter

K so then there are like three or even four balkans?
I hope you see my point. These things make no damn sense once you actually try to justify it. It's heretical to put Greece with Bulgaria and even Albania, but totally works when you put Serbia and Albania as part of the same "cultural sphere". I don't think these cultural region denominations are so relevant anymore unless you just use them as geographical regions for simplicity sake. In a way, all southeastern Europeans all the way up to Croatia share something in terms of history and genetic composition. It's just so incomprehensible for me why people obsess so much over these terms. In the eyes of westerners, today only western and eastern Europe exists either way.

[brennus dux gallorum]

LOLL. Since when?

People seem to make up their own things in here

since our creation

and if you want to ensure yourself that it's not "my own thing":
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?219373-Do-you-as-Greeks-feel-more-closely-related-to

[RN97]

Greeks have nothing against Bulgarians, Albanians etc, but we don't feel related to them. So people get surprised when Greece is considered the same entity with the mentioned countries. Is it wrong to say that Greece is a Mediterranean country?

Okay, but would you think that Serbs feel related to Albanians then? :confused: Albania could technically be a med country as well.

[badabum]

Maybe you are confused, because many balkanite countries have been our vassals.

No academic historian or scholar associate Hungary with the oriental balkanites.

Since when?

[badabum]

since our creation

and if you want to ensure yourself that it's not "my own thing":
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?219373-Do-you-as-Greeks-feel-more-closely-related-to

Aaa, I see. So what 22 people voted on a poll on theapricity counteracts what reality is?

Just take the cock out man. You can put a bigger one in there if you like

[Lavrentis]

Okay, but would you think that Serbs feel related to Albanians then? :confused: Albania could technically be a med country as well.

I think that Albanians are their own thing as well. I sometimes associate Serbs and Albanians based on phenotype, both are heavily Dinaric

[Mingle]

I think the point of the OP was just to analyze how similar neighboring countries in Southeast Europe are. Even if Greece isn't part of the Balkans, it still neighbors Balkan countries on all sides (except Turkey which is 97% in Asia) so it was relevant for comparison purposes.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Aaa, I see. So what 22 people voted on a poll on theapricity counteracts what reality is?

Just take the cock out man. You can put a bigger one in there if you like

Then come here and ask a sample, dumb

[Lavrentis]

I think the point of the OP was just to analyze how similar neighboring countries in Southeast Europe are. Even if Greece isn't part of the Balkans, it still neighbors Balkan countries on all sides (except Turkey which is 97% in Asia) so it was relevant for comparison purposes.

First of all, I think OP is a troll. Someone with a similar way of typing appeared to a similar thread bashing Greeks for feeling as a part of the Western world and not related to Russias etc. It was a Serbian dude who wrote all that, but it was a different account. For some reason, he wanted to make Greece appear as a part of Eastern Europe etc.

Greece and neighboring Balkan countries share a Byzantine past but also Hellenic past, so what I'm saying here is that we have influenced the Balkans more than the Balkans have influenced us, so to me, it doesn't make sense to lump Greece with countries that Greeks don't feel related with. Greeks mostly feel related to themselves, but if there is one foreign people that we feel most related with, that's south Italians (usually people here would say Italians as a whole but I make a distinction since I don't think that Greeks are similar with all Italians).

[badabum]

Then come here and ask a sample, dumb

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Balkan_topo_en.jpg

I can understand Hungaria, or even Moldova, but Greece? There must be a large sale of dildos in Greece

[brennus dux gallorum]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Balkan_topo_en.jpg

I can understand Hungaria, or even Moldova, but Greece? There must be a large sale of dildos in Greece

That's a geographical map, can you understand its difference from the map you created from your ass, dumb? Which as you can see it's oppose to what science says

[badabum]

First of all, I think OP is a troll. Someone with a similar way of typing appeared to a similar thread bashing Greeks for feeling as a part of the Western world and not related to Russias etc. It was a Serbian dude who wrote all that, but it was a different account. For some reason, he wanted to make Greece appear as a part of Eastern Europe etc.

Greece and neighboring Balkan countries share a Byzantine past but also Hellenic past, so what I'm saying here is that we have influenced the Balkans more than the Balkans have influenced us, so to me, it doesn't make sense to lump Greece with countries that Greeks don't feel related with. Greeks mostly feel related to themselves, but if there is one foreign people that we feel most related with, that's south Italians (usually people here would say Italians as a whole but I make a distinction since I don't think that Greeks are similar with all Italians).

History is not like Math or Science my friend. Taking anything that happened so long ago and personalizing it is border line, psychotic. Then making assumptions based on improvable, is idiotic.

[catgeorge]

There are ample genetic papers out there which confirms what you post is nonsense.

[Bosniensis]

According to new K29 GenePlaza I am

27.1% Greek or Albanian
29.8% Celtic / NW European
24.6% Proto Slavic
10% West Asian (Anatolia)
=================

It's amazing how I ended up in Bosnia, I wonder with which nation I could cluster genetically the best?

I Think Western Balkan is Diverse.. so nobody can connect them Genetically.

So much different people and armies visited us it's incredible.

[Voskos]

Greece is Greece and nothing else. Different language, different civilization.

[Voskos]

According to new K29 GenePlaza I am

27.1% Greek or Albanian
29.8% Celtic / NW European
24.6% Proto Slavic
10% West Asian (Anatolia)
=================

It's amazing how I ended up in Bosnia, I wonder with which nation I could cluster genetically the best?

I Think Western Balkan is Diverse.. so nobody can connect them Genetically.

So much different people and armies visited us it's incredible.

what group of west asian?

[Sikeliot]

IMO Albania and Greece are grouped together, Bulgaria and Macedonia together, and then Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia together.

[katniss]

1. Yugoslavia
2. Greece + Albania
3. Bulgaria + Romania

Subdivisions inside of Yugoslavia:
- Bosnia + western and central Serbia
- eastern Serbia + southern Serbia + Macedonia
- Slovenia + north/western Croatia
- northern Serbia + north/eastern Croatia
- Montenegro + sourthern Croatia

[katniss]

bonus:
http://brennusduxgalorum.blogspot.gr/2017/11/yes-greece-is-western-too-reasons.html

Your desperate wish to be part of western Europe, makes you very hysterical and one-sided, so you did not mention many things in your charlatan text. Continental Greece and majority of islands were under Turkish rule. Some parts of Greece stayed under Turkish rule until 1912 which is much longer than Serbia or Bosnia for instance. A couple of Greek islands were under Venetian rule, but I have no idea why do you consider such things to be so important. Do you think there is a huge difference between Greek islands depending whether they were under Turkish or Venetian rule?
Belgrade was under Turkish rule during the history, but present day architecture in Belgrade originated from late 19th century and 20th century when Serbia was fully independent. Before that, there was a period of semi independence. Belgrade looks like other European capitals architecturally. I mean on the same architectural styles. So, if you think architecture is so important, Belgrade is the West for you.
Some Dalmatian islands were also under Venetian rule, but today these islands are real shitholes. So, why do you think Turkish or Venetian rule is so important for present day situation?
By the way, what is the point of such blatant lies:

turks look closer to "balkanites" than to Italians or Greeks. Only a small part of them have pure med. features, and those live near the western coasts.

[Stears]

Some Dalmatian islands were also under Venetian rule, but today these islands are real shitholes. So, why do you think Turkish or Venetian rule is so important for present day situation?


Your ugly gypsy capital is the real shithole, Catpiss. This is Feiichy writing to you.

Don't ever mention again Dalmatian islands is same sentence with the oriental shithole you inhabit, again.

[Stears]

Disgusting chetnik whore.

[katniss]

Your ugly gypsy capital is the real shithole, Catpiss. This is Feiichy writing to you.

Don't ever mention again Dalmatian islands is same sentence with the oriental shithole you inhabit, again.

:coffee:
Feiichy, you are funny, hysterical and very malicious clown. Take some pills for hysteria and calm down.

[Vožd]

Idiot uneducated monkey! Hungary does not part of the orthodox-muslim balkanite world.

Please educate us what is "Orthodox-muslim world"?

[Stears]

:coffee:
Feiichy, you are funny, hysterical and very malicious clown. Take some pills for hysteria and calm down.

Feiichy: No, I won't. after two or three years you can't stop talking about Croatia.
don't mention it ever again, ok ? Pretend we don't exist.

I am fucking sick of you. Odjebi! Hvala unaprijed .

[Stears]

Please educate us what is "Orthodox-muslim world"?

Whatever. It is now Stears GF writing from his account, not him. I'll tell him to stop unnecessary debate which was discussed thousand times already.
I hope when he comes home, he'll log out and never come again here. But it is up to him.

[Vožd]

What do you guys think about these Cultural and Genetic divisions.

I know the retardeness that can come off of these Balkan countries but aren't you people tired of being used as pawns in the big boys game?

1. Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro (representive of the most Balkanic culture and genes)

2. Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia (Representing an even mix of Balkanic and Slavic/Northern European cultural and genetic diffusion)

3. Romania, Moldova (Uniquely Balkanic with influences from exterior people and cultures)

4. Hungaria (An intermediate country from Balkan to Europe)

5. Serbia (A huge mix of these Balkan zones)

There is not Balkan culture.
Balkan is not cultural or politic region, its just geographical between Pannonian plan and seas. Moldova and Hungary dont belong to Balkan. Slovenia and Romania only a small part. Croatia and Serbia pairtly (Im from Serbia, but not from Balkan).

There is not Balkan genes. Its also genetical mixature region.
Why you think E1b is more "Balkanic" than I2a?
Why you put Montenegro in Albanian group? Not genetic (dominant I2a like in Serbia) especially not cultural.

[Vožd]

..

[Kelmendasi]

There is not Balkan culture.
Balkan is not cultural or politic region, its just geographical between Pannonian plan and seas. Moldova and Hungary dont belong to Balkan. Slovenia and Romania only a small part. Croatia and Serbia pairtly (Im from Serbia, but not from Balkan).

There is not Balkan genes. Its also genetical mixature region.
Why you think E1b is more "Balkanic" than I2a?
Why you put Montenegro in Albanian group? Not genetic (dominant I2a like in Serbia) especially not cultural.
Montenegro has almost equal almost of E-V13 to I2a1b, and E-V13 is more "native" Balkan as I2a1b came with Slavs

[Voskos]

If ,going solely by genetics and anthrotardism, I had to group all R1b-L23 Z2105 countries together then you get a group consisting of:

Turkey
Greece
Armenia
South Italy
Albania
Kosovo
Parts of FYROM and Bulgaria

[brennus dux gallorum]

Your desperate wish to be part of western Europe, makes you very hysterical and one-sided, so you did not mention many things in your charlatan text. Continental Greece and majority of islands were under Turkish rule. Some parts of Greece stayed under Turkish rule until 1912 which is much longer than Serbia or Bosnia for instance. A couple of Greek islands were under Venetian rule, but I have no idea why do you consider such things to be so important. Do you think there is a huge difference between Greek islands depending whether they were under Turkish or Venetian rule?
Belgrade was under Turkish rule during the history, but present day architecture in Belgrade originated from late 19th century and 20th century when Serbia was fully independent. Before that, there was a period of semi independence. Belgrade looks like other European capitals architecturally. I mean on the same architectural styles. So, if you think architecture is so important, Belgrade is the West for you.
Some Dalmatian islands were also under Venetian rule, but today these islands are real shitholes. So, why do you think Turkish or Venetian rule is so important for present day situation?
By the way, what is the point of such blatant lies:

To begin with, when I am talking about European rule in most of Greece, I don't necessarily mean during ottoman period, but both before and after ottomans

You know, Greek history neither starts with ottoman conquest (which as I said doesn't even include the country as a whole) nor ends in early 19th century and its liberation. And if ottomans count(even in that point you overlook our naval contacts with Mediterranean Europe) then so Count the frankish, venetian, aragon rules which lasted as much as the ottoman for most of Greeks, and bavarian which is the most recent

How could Greece for example being compared to fyrom, the same time that Greece had so many contacts with the rest of Europe, had parts out of the ottoman empire and ottoman rule lasted for much less than in fyrom?

Now, as you probably remember, you told me to get out of serbian section and never post anything again, and you can see I respected it

Could you do the same and stop quoting me hysterical bitch?

[Vožd]

I think that Albanians are their own thing as well. I sometimes associate Serbs and Albanians based on phenotype, both are heavily Dinaric

Just like Bosnians, Croatians, Montenegrins etc.
But still its different geneticly. South Slavs I2a, Albanians E1b mostly.

[Vožd]

First of all, I think OP is a troll. Someone with a similar way of typing appeared to a similar thread bashing Greeks for feeling as a part of the Western world and not related to Russias etc. It was a Serbian dude who wrote all that, but it was a different account. For some reason, he wanted to make Greece appear as a part of Eastern Europe etc.

Greece and neighboring Balkan countries share a Byzantine past but also Hellenic past, so what I'm saying here is that we have influenced the Balkans more than the Balkans have influenced us, so to me, it doesn't make sense to lump Greece with countries that Greeks don't feel related with. Greeks mostly feel related to themselves, but if there is one foreign people that we feel most related with, that's south Italians (usually people here would say Italians as a whole but I make a distinction since I don't think that Greeks are similar with all Italians).

How you mean Balkan influenced you?
Can you give some example?

[Vožd]

Montenegro has almost equal almost of E-V13 to I2a1b, and E-V13 is more "native" Balkan as I2a1b came with Slavs

Becaouse official research for Montenegro is mostly from Podgorica (east Montenegro). West and central Montenegro is very cultural and geneticly close to Herzegovina.

[Linebacker]

You can start a war by making a map like this.We have started wars for less.

Thin Ice.

[Kelmendasi]

Becaouse official research for Montenegro is mostly from Podgorica (east Montenegro). West and central Montenegro is very cultural and geneticly close to Herzegovina.
Montenegro overall has a good amount of E-V13 although haplogroups which are mainly found in Albanians are more common in east Montenegro:
https://dnk.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Crna_Gora_-_Genetsko_poreklo_stanovnistva_1914_1.png

[RN97]

To begin with, when I am talking about European rule in most of Greece, I don't necessarily mean during ottoman period, but both before and after ottomans

You know, Greek history neither starts with ottoman conquest (which as I said doesn't even include the country as a whole) nor ends in early 19th century and its liberation. And if ottomans count(even in that point you overlook our naval contacts with Mediterranean Europe) then so Count the frankish, venetian, aragon rules which lasted as much as the ottoman for most of Greeks, and bavarian which is the most recent

How could Greece for example being compared to fyrom, the same time that Greece had so many contacts with the rest of Europe, had parts out of the ottoman empire and ottoman rule lasted for much less than in fyrom?

Now, as you probably remember, you told me to get out of serbian section and never post anything again, and you can see I respected it

Could you do the same and stop quoting me hysterical bitch?

Being ruled and conquered by Germanics is basically the main source of pride of a lot of countries seemingly suffering from lust to be the westernmost country on earth.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Being ruled and conquered by Germanics is basically the main source of pride of a lot of countries seemingly suffering from lust to be the westernmost country on earth.

That's between me and her, and I really don't want interventions :)

Moreover, my point is not "being western", that's something kinda surface, and I would not self identify as "western", from some aspects I am, from others not. my point is that Greece had a partially different evolution from South slavs, and the reason is the geographical position, including not only a mediterranean climate and a very long coast, which affected our habits, but also historical events related to it.

In Greek common sense Balkans is associated with South Slavs, a Southern version of Slavs, which is something different from what Greece is

So yes, I would agree with Lewis model and encyclopedia Brittanica, Greece being mediterranean mostly (without balkan influences being excluded)

BTW do you really think that Romania shares so much in common with other countries being classified here as "Balkan"?

[Stears]

:coffee:
Feiichy, you are funny, hysterical and very malicious clown. Take some pills for hysteria and calm down.

Hello pussylicker! Leave alone my GF.

[Wrong]

Hungaria - A gateway of South-East-West and North.

[Stears]

Please educate us what is "Orthodox-muslim world"?

My uneducated ''friend'', the full text is here:

Culturally, both islam and the semi-asian orthodox countries were traditionally west-hater civilizations.


THE WESTERN (Catholic-protestant) WORLD is depicted in dark blue on the map of prof. S. Huntington:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ations_map.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png)


What is Western Civilization?
The earliest mention of Western civilization “Occidental civilis”
After the Great Schism (The East-West Schism /formally in 1054/, between Western Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity.) Hungary determined itself as the easternmost bastion of Western civilisation (This statement was affirmed later by Pope Pius II who wrote that to Emperor Friedrich III, “Hungary is the shield of Christianity and the protector of Western civilization”)


It is not a secret in history, that countries civilizations are/were not in the same level of development.
It is well-known that Western and Central Europe, ( the so-called Western civilization) was always more developed than Orthodox Slavic or Eastern European civilization.
The cultural the societal-system and the economical civilizational (and technological) differences between Orthodox countries and Western Christian (Catholic-Protestant) countries were similar great, as the differences between Northern America (USA Canada) and Southern- (Latino) America.




MEMENTO:
Western things which were not existed in orthodox world:




1. POLITICAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL development: Medieval appearance of parliaments (a legislative body(!), DO NOT CONFUSE with the “councils of monarchs” which existed since the beginning of human history), the estates of the realm, the clergy, the nobility, and the commoners,



2. SELF GOVERNMENT status of big royal/imperial cities, (local government systems of cities), which are the direct ancestors of modern self/local governmental systems. Do not confuse the self local governments with the city states. Sovereign city states were the earliest form of states in Human history ( For example: Sumerian city states), and that legal concept has nothing common with the self-governments/local governments of cities within a country or within an Empire.



3. ECONOMY: The medieval appearance of banking systems and social effects and status of urban bourgeoisie, the absolute dominance of money-economy (when the vast majority of trade based on money and the taxes customs duties were collected in money) from the 12th -13th century, instead of the former primitive bartel-based commerce (barter dominated the economies orthodox world until the 17-18th centuries.)




4. HIGHER EDUCATION: The medieval appearance of universities and the medieval appearance of secular intellectuals,




5. CULTURE: Knights, the knight-culture, chivalric code, (and the technological effects of crusades from the Holy Land,)
Music and literature: courtly love, troubadours, Gregorian chant, Ars nova, Organum, Motet, Madrigal, Canon and Ballata, Liturgical drama, Novellas,
medieval western THEATER: Mystery or cycle plays, morality and passion plays, which developed into the renaissance theater, the direct ancestor of modern theaters.
Philosophy: Scholasticism and humanist philosophy,


6. The medieval usage of Latin alphabet and medieval spread of movable type printing,


7. TECHNOLOGY: The guild system is an association of artisans or merchants, which organized the training education, and directed master's exam system for artisians. Due to the compulsory foreign studies of the artisian master's candidates, the guilds played key role in the fast spread of technologies and industrial knowledge in the medieval Western World.


8. The defence systems & fortifications: The spread of stone/brick castle defense -systems, the town-walls of western cities from the 11th century. (In the orthodox world, only the capital cities had such a walls . The countries of the Balkan region and the territory of Russian states fell under Ottoman/Mongolian rule very rapidly - with a
single decesive open-field battle - due to the lack of the networks of stone/brick castles and fortresses in these countries. The only exception was the greek inhabited Byzantine territories which were well fortified.)


9. FINEARTS and ARCHITECTURE: western architecture, sculpture paintings and fine-arts: the Romanesque style, the Gothic style and the Renaissance style.
The orthodox church buildings and „palaces(?)” were very little, they had primitive structure and poor decorations, their style were influenced by non-European arabic and persian influenced Byzantine ornamentics.




10.The renaissance & humanism , the reformation and the enlightenment did not influenced/affected the Orthodox (Eastern European) countries.


11. Before 1870, the industrialization that had developed in Western and Central Europe and the United States did not extend in any significant way to the rest of the world. In Eastern Europe, industrialization lagged far behind, and started only in the 20th century. Their infrastructural and economic development was also very very slow, and many determinant factors of modern civilization - as we called them as civilized way of life - (railways, the electrification of cities, drain & sewer systems, water pipe systems, spread of tap water and bathrooms, telecommuncations etc... spread many-many decades (60-80 years) later.


It is no wonder that their contribution in science technology and innovations are completely negligible in Human history by the WESTERN standards.

[Mingle]

So yes, I would agree with Lews model and encyclopedia Brittanica, Greece being mediterranean mostly (without balkan influences being excluded)

Even if you consider Greece to be a non-Balkan country, the Lewis model is not a good source here. It is supposedly based on the mentalities of the people that live there. It's not a cultural regions map. There are many cultural regions maps (including those that don't group Greece with the Balkans) so I don't know why you keep quoting the Lewis model. According to the Lewis model, France and Lithuania should be grouped together, Belgium and Israel should be grouped together, and Bulgaria and Iran should be grouped together. Do you not realize how dumb that sounds?

Btw, Encyclopedia Brittanica only uses the geographic definition of Balkans (i.e. Balkans Peninsula) not the cultural definition. And they say that portions of Greece and Turkey are included in it. By "portions of Greece and Turkey", I am assuming they are referring to Mainland Greece and Turkish Thrace.

[RN97]

That's between me and her, and I really don't want interventions :)

Moreover, my point is not "being western", that's something kinda surface, and I would not self identify as "western", from some aspects I am, from others not. my point is that Greece had a partially different evolution from South slavs, and the reason is the geographical position, including not only a mediterranean climate and a very long coast, which affected our habits, but also historical events related to it.

So yes, I would agree with Lewis model and encyclopedia Brittanica, Greece being mediterranean mostly (without balkan influences being excluded)

BTW

There is nothing that would make Balkan not equal mediterranean as the mediterranean sea borders all of the western Balkans. IDK what you mean by

do you really think that Romania shares so much in common with other countries being classified here as "Balkan"?
I think that Romania has the biggest economical growth in Europe and it's future seems optimistic and even bright. That's all I think is relevant, not what abstract cultural region people define the nation as belonging to, for me that's irrelevant for several reasons.
No offence as well, but your text is a big joke. Gramatically it's terrible and writing in English does not seem like your forte. The content itself is also quite shady as you ignore basically hundreds of years of Turkish rule/ influence. Being ruled by a certain people does also not mean being part of the same cultural sphere, unless you'd want to consider India as part of NW European culture because it was ruled by the Brits for a long time. People today put Greece with western Europe because:
1. Greece was not part of Europe that was ruled by communists
2. Greece used to be more economically advanced when the east/ west model was starting to see wide use.
It's quite irrelevant what country Greece is "related to", but today Greece is not doing so swell and if I was a Greek I'd care a lot more about that than whether others relate my country with the Balkans or W. Europe.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Even if you consider Greece to be a non-Balkan country, the Lewis model is not a good source here. It is supposedly based on the mentalities of the people that live there. It's not a cultural regions map. There are many cultural regions maps (including those that don't group Greece with the Balkans) so I don't know why you keep quoting the Lewis model. According to the Lewis model, France and Lithuania should be grouped together, Belgium and Israel should be grouped together, and Bulgaria and Iran should be grouped together. Do you not realize how dumb that sounds?


being from Greece myself and having been many times in both balkans and Southern European countries (I guess you have never been) allow me to know a little more things about where my country belongs to.

And yes,from this personal experience i see Lewis model as very accurate. As for "being based on the mentalities", that's the only measurable thing in terms of culture (cause it's definetely part of culture, if not the most important part), other aspects can't be measured, and it's up to individuals to conclude, what vibe each culture gives. the fact that for most of Greeks and Europeans (even people from Balkans who do not focus on similarities or particular regions) Greece is perceived as Mediterranean.



Btw, Encyclopedia Brittanica only uses the geographic definition of Balkans (i.e. Balkans Peninsula) not the cultural definition. And they say that portions of Greece and Turkey are included in it. By "portions of Greece and Turkey", I am assuming they are referring to Mainland Greece and Turkish Thrace.

not mainland as a whole, read the article again

[Stears]

Hungaria - A gateway of South-East-West and North.

Because it is central european country.

[Wrong]

Because it is central european country.
Its highest interest lays in the lands of Balkans and East Europe. Magyars have no aspirations for the North or West.

Mentality = Balkan/Eastern

[Stears]

There is nothing that would make Balkan not equal mediterranean as the mediterranean sea borders all of the western Balkans. IDK what you mean by

I think that Romania has the biggest economical growth in Europe and it's future seems optimistic and even bright. That's all I think is relevant, not what abstract cultural region people define the nation as belonging to, for me that's irrelevant for several reasons.
No offence as well, but your text is a big joke. Gramatically it's terrible and writing in English does not seem like your forte. The content itself is also quite shady as you ignore basically hundreds of years of Turkish rule/ influence. Being ruled by a certain people does also not mean being part of the same cultural sphere, unless you'd want to consider India as part of NW European culture because it was ruled by the Brits for a long time. People today put Greece with western Europe because:
1. Greece was not part of Europe that was ruled by communists
2. Greece used to be more economically advanced when the east/ west model was starting to see wide use.
It's quite irrelevant what country Greece is "related to", but today Greece is not doing so swell and if I was a Greek I'd care a lot more about that than whether others relate my country with the Balkans or W. Europe.

Fast economical growth is typical for the African and Asian developing countries ))))

[Stears]

Its highest interest lays in the lands of Balkans and East Europe. Magyars have no aspirations for the North or West.

Mentality = Balkan/Eastern

Wrong. We simply hate balkan mentality. We never had any serious cultural economic ties with the balkanites during our history.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think that Romania has the biggest economical growth in Europe and it's future seems optimistic and even bright. That's all I think is relevant, not what abstract cultural region people define the nation as belonging to, for me that's irrelevant for several reasons.
No offence as well, but your text is a big joke. Gramatically it's terrible and writing in English does not seem like your forte. The content itself is also quite shady as you ignore basically hundreds of years of Turkish rule/ influence. Being ruled by a certain people does also not mean being part of the same cultural sphere, unless you'd want to consider India as part of NW European culture because it was ruled by the Brits for a long time. People today put Greece with western Europe because:
1. Greece was not part of Europe that was ruled by communists
2. Greece used to be more economically advanced when the east/ west model was starting to see wide use.
It's quite irrelevant what country Greece is "related to", but today Greece is not doing so swell and if I was a Greek I'd care a lot more about that than whether others relate my country with the Balkans or W. Europe.
To be honest I didn't really expect such insults against me when I decided to respond :D

But seriously, if you think that romanian economic growth is the only relevant thing, why did you even join this thread? not to mention that sticking to modern Greek economy situation and caring only about the particular issue and nothing else really sounds pathological

[Bosniensis]

I prefer Balkan neutral mentality like modern Serbian politics.

Those who call themselves Pro-Western I can only show pity.

Only pro-balkan, anti-western and anti-eastern (EU, NATO, RUSSIA, USA) politics is a good politics.

I don't need anyone to be my Tutor.

Therefore I think Serbia, Bosnia can stick together in Balkans as well as anyone else who would follow similar path.

[Mingle]

being from Greece myself and having been many times in both balkans and Southern European countries (I guess you have never been) allow me to know a little more things about where my country belongs to.

I didn't state Greece was part of the Balkan here, I was only questioning the Lewis model. I even said that there are some sources that don't include Greece with the Balkans.


And yes,from this personal experience i see Lewis model as very accurate. As for "being based on the mentalities", that's the only measurable thing in terms of culture (cause it's definetely part of culture, if not the most important part), other aspects can't be measured, and it's up to individuals to conclude, what vibe each culture gives. the fact that for most of Greeks and Europeans (even people from Balkans who do not focus on similarities or particular regions) Greece is perceived as Mediterranean.

Even if it's true for Greece, it is very flawed as a whole. You think France and Lithuania should be grouped together? -_-


not mainland as a whole, read the article again

It didn't specify mainland or not. I just assumed it meant the mainland since "portion" is a very vague term the mainland as a whole is part of Balkan Peninsula. Which parts of Mainland Greece do you think are not part of the Balkan Peninsula?

[Vožd]

My uneducated ''friend'', the full text is here:

Dude, strop trolling at once.
Im not ask you what is western culture or to paste this idiotic text again (i answer you many time on this). I ask you what is "Orthodoxy-Muslim world"?
Or you think there is only two cultures on world: Western and other?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Even if it's true for Greece, it is very flawed as a whole. You think France and Lithuania should be grouped together? -_-
Nope, but i guess it means close by "mental level", which may makes sense



It didn't specify mainland or not. I just assumed it meant the mainland since "portion" is a very vague term the mainland as a whole is part of Balkan Peninsula. Which parts of Mainland Greece do you think are not part of the Balkan Peninsula?
It says:

Greece, because its northern regions of Epirus and Macedonia are often considered parts of the Balkans, also appears on many lists of Balkan states, but it is arguably better characterized as primarily a Mediterranean country.

but yes, geographically mainland (and why not most of the islands) is part of Balkans

[Vožd]

Greece is only geographicly Balkan. But Balkan not exist in any other sense.
There is no "Balkan genes", "Balkan culture", "Balkan mentality" etc.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Greece is only geographicly Balkan. But Balkan not exist in any other sense.
There is no "Balkan genes", "Balkan culture", "Balkan mentality" etc.

that's exactly what I am talking about

[Vožd]

Wrong. We simply hate balkan mentality. We never had any serious cultural economic ties with the balkanites during our history.

Educate as now, what is "Balkan mentality".
But try use some another text...

[Lavrentis]

How you mean Balkan influenced you?
Can you give some example?

I mean that we assimilated Balkanites such as the Arvanites.

[Stears]

Educate as now, what is "Balkan mentality".
But try use some another text...


I can also call it gypsy mentality. Is it better?

[Stears]

Dude, strop trolling at once.
Im not ask you what is western culture or to paste this idiotic text again (i answer you many time on this). I ask you what is "Orthodoxy-Muslim world"?
Or you think there is only two cultures on world: Western and other?


I have never write that Muslim and Orthodox is the same world. I've just write they equally represent the Eastern world in the collective mind of Western civilization.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I can also call it gypsy mentality. Is it better?

Really? Is it really gypsy mentality, or you are just obsessed and butthurted about Balkan? No, Serbs won't give you Vojvodina. Keep going with your lies and bullshits.

You are insulting Balkan every day, without any special reason. You are butthurted becouse Transylvania and Vojvodina is not in your possession. That's your only reason. No one from Balkan doesn't give a fuck about Hungary or Hungarians here on TA.

[Vožd]

I've just write they equally represent the Eastern world in the collective mind of Western civilization.
If this true, this mean we have education problem in west. Balkan mentality not exist, peoples mentality is different by regions, but also by indivudual.


I can also call it gypsy mentality. Is it better?

Why?
You think for example south Italians have also gypsy mentality?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

If this true, this mean we have education problem in west. Balkan mentality not exist, peoples mentality is different by regions, but also by indivudual.



Why?
You think Spainrads and south Italians have also gypsy mentality?

The reason why he is spreading shits here about Balkan and especially Serbia is becouse of Vojvodina. He said it once.

[CabOOM]

IMO Albania and Greece are grouped together, Bulgaria and Macedonia together, and then Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia together.

You are soly relying this on genetics. However, the idea is to not create entities that follow political ambitions, as is the case with Bullgaria-Macedonia. Completely understandable however.


1. Yugoslavia
2. Greece + Albania
3. Bulgaria + Romania

Subdivisions inside of Yugoslavia:
- Bosnia + western and central Serbia
- eastern Serbia + southern Serbia + Macedonia
- Slovenia + north/western Croatia
- northern Serbia + north/eastern Croatia
- Montenegro + sourthern Croatia

This is unacceptable because this is further dividing the region.


There is not Balkan culture.
Balkan is not cultural or politic region, its just geographical between Pannonian plan and seas. Moldova and Hungary dont belong to Balkan. Slovenia and Romania only a small part. Croatia and Serbia pairtly (Im from Serbia, but not from Balkan).

There is not Balkan genes. Its also genetical mixature region.
Why you think E1b is more "Balkanic" than I2a?
Why you put Montenegro in Albanian group? Not genetic (dominant I2a like in Serbia) especially not cultural.

Y-DNA is only a small fraction of genetics useful only to track movement of people. You're forgetting the other 99.9%



Becaouse official research for Montenegro is mostly from Podgorica (east Montenegro). West and central Montenegro is very cultural and geneticly close to Herzegovina.


Interesting you mention this. If I could, I would include Herzegovina with Montenegro into the heavily Balkan cluster. The reason for this is the heavy Balkan cultural element that Herzegovina, along with Montenegro and Albania has. There is also a large genetic element however that people seem to miss with Herzegovina. Autosomaly, they do not have the Slavs components like the rest of Bosnia, Croatia, or Serbia. Y-DNA is a very small fraction of overall DNA and is useful only for determining movement of people.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif
https://i.imgur.com/9JN7qkN.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Glasinac_culture.png

Not to even mention the strong cultural links between Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Albania. Namely, the tribal mentality, Blood feuds, honor system, manner of being and presenting themselves. If you are only looking at Y-DNA, you are completely missing the 99.9%


being from Greece myself and having been many times in both balkans and Southern European countries (I guess you have never been) allow me to know a little more things about where my country belongs to.

And yes,from this personal experience i see Lewis model as very accurate. As for "being based on the mentalities", that's the only measurable thing in terms of culture (cause it's definetely part of culture, if not the most important part), other aspects can't be measured, and it's up to individuals to conclude, what vibe each culture gives. the fact that for most of Greeks and Europeans (even people from Balkans who do not focus on similarities or particular regions) Greece is perceived as Mediterranean.



not mainland as a whole, read the article again

Let me tell you something. Greece is perceived as the shithole of Europe. Everyone thinks of you as these darkie cockroaches that cant even take care of a country with all the privileges they receive. You should consider yourself lucky to even be in the Balkans. This isn't about ancient history or what ever fantasy you keep. This is about Balkanites today.


Wrong. We simply hate balkan mentality. We never had any serious cultural economic ties with the balkanites during our history.

Hungaria is surely diverged from the Balkan to some extent but surely they DO have a Balkan mentality. No reason to deny this


I prefer Balkan neutral mentality like modern Serbian politics.

Those who call themselves Pro-Western I can only show pity.

Only pro-balkan, anti-western and anti-eastern (EU, NATO, RUSSIA, USA) politics is a good politics.

I don't need anyone to be my Tutor.

Therefore I think Serbia, Bosnia can stick together in Balkans as well as anyone else who would follow similar path.

Serbia has damaged the Balkan so much that I'd be ashamed to speak of Serbia and Balkans unity in same sentence. All the unnecessary deaths, hatred, ad division Serbs have caused. For this reason, Serbia must be put into its own category of being the worst of every Balkan zone. Its very own category.


Greece is only geographicly Balkan. But Balkan not exist in any other sense.
There is no "Balkan genes", "Balkan culture", "Balkan mentality" etc.

Ofcourse there is. There is music, traditions, mentality, look, history, and in the minds of people. If Balkans doents qualify to be a Culture, genes, or mentality then there is no such thing anywhere.

[Vožd]

Ofcourse there is. There is music, traditions, mentality, look, history, and in the minds of people. If Balkans doents qualify to be a Culture, genes, or mentality then there is no such thing anywhere.

No. I can give you different examples of all of this just in Serbia or Croatia, especiall huge differernces between countries (for example Slovenia and east Bulgaria have nothing do to). There is no Balkan culture, mentality, traditions, music, even not history.
Balkan is only geographical term, thats all, a mountan region between Pannonian basin and seas.
There is many cultures mixed here. Balkan is more complexed region than Scandinavia for example.

[CabOOM]

No. I can give you different examples of all of this just in Serbia or Croatia, especiall huge differernces between countries (for example Slovenia and east Bulgaria have nothing do to). There is no Balkan culture, mentality, traditions, music, even not history.
Balkan is only geographical term, thats all, a mountan region between Pannonian basin and seas.
There is many cultures mixed here. Balkan is more complexed region than Scandinavia for example.

Scandinavia is slightly more homogeneous but still mixed to some degree. It is also more isolated into its own geographical island. Slovenia is the border frontier and it is expected to have a larger difference. Just like you would from Sicily to Venice. Doesn't make Slovenia less Balkan.

[Vožd]

Scandinavia is slightly more homogeneous but still mixed to some degree. It is also more isolated into its own geographical island. Slovenia is the border frontier and it is expected to have a larger difference. Just like you would from Sicily to Venice. Doesn't make Slovenia less Balkan.

What you consider to "Balkan culture"?

[CabOOM]

What you consider to "Balkan culture"?

The mentality: Strong outward morals and beliefs. Strong enough that they feel they need to extend it onto others. -Simple generalization
History: Always considering their neighbor to be assimilated version of themselves. Using "The mentality" as an aim to achieving this.
Genetics:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

etc.

[Vožd]

The mentality: Strong outward morals and beliefs. Strong enough that they feel they need to extend it onto others. -Simple generalization
History: Always considering their neighbor to be assimilated version of themselves. Using "The mentality" as an aim to achieving this.
Genetics:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

etc.

Well you can find it in other regions...

[Cihan]

Having read these angry and racist posts in this thread, I wonder what Balkan mentality is.
Is Balkan:
- These heated arguments over subjective nothings
- Seeing your neighbor as very different, inferior, enemy
- Focusing on differences instead of commonalities
- Treating each other with disrespect and being hateful

It doesn’t have to be.
I have hope that Balkan people are better than that.

Greece is on Balkan Peninsula and shares its entire history and a great deal of its culture with the rest of its Balkan neighbors. That doesn’t mean Greece will be exactly the same as other Balkan countries or Greece will be inferior/superior by association.

[Bosniensis]

Between Serbs and Bosniaks there are no cultural divisions just religious divisions.

However, there is a cultural difference between Bosniaks and Croats, a huge differences...

Croats are more aligned with Western Nations, while Serbs and Bosniaks are Eastern oriented.

[katniss]

Between Serbs and Bosniaks there are no cultural divisions just religious divisions.

However, there is a cultural difference between Bosniaks and Croats, a huge differences...

Croats are more aligned with Western Nations, while Serbs and Bosniaks are Eastern oriented.


After breakup of Yugoslavia, some of the new states and nations tried to build new identity, promoting idea about belonging to the some imaginary and artificial "cultural regions", spheres, etc... Some Croats are wannabe "central Europeans" or even "western Europeans", but in reality they are South Slavs and they belong to the Yugoslavian cultural sphere, although some of them are indeed mentally more similar to other wannabe "central Europeans" (former communist Eastern European countries).

[Dibran]

No it's not imaginary.

We Macedonians have much more in common with the Bulgarians than with the Serbs.

Be from point of genetics, cultural point etc.

Don’t waste your energy on them. They can’t see reason. It’s been proven over and again that though distanced, Albanians Bulgarians, Macedonian and Greeks cluster and/or overlap. As much as they lie, it doesn’t change the truth.

[Vožd]

Between Serbs and Bosniaks there are no cultural divisions just religious divisions.

However, there is a cultural difference between Bosniaks and Croats, a huge differences...

Croats are more aligned with Western Nations, while Serbs and Bosniaks are Eastern oriented.

How you mean eastern oriented?

[Bosniensis]

How you mean eastern oriented?

Bosniaks and Serbs traditionally originate from Eastern Christianity therefore Byzantine/Ottoman mindset where everything American, British,Germanic, Italian is viewed as a "Western" and observed with "Caution".

[Vožd]

Bosniaks and Serbs traditionally originate from Eastern Christianity therefore Byzantine/Ottoman mindset where everything American, British,Germanic, Italian is viewed as a "Western" and observed with "Caution".

You can find it in all eastern European countries.

[Bosniensis]

You can find it in all eastern European countries.

But Croatia is different.

They love Austria, Italy more than anything.

[Vožd]

But Croatia is different.

They love Austria, Italy more than anything.

Depedens of region. Croatia is culturaly mixed.

[blogen]

4. Hungaria (An intermediate country from Balkan to Europe)

Greece is Balkan, but not Hungary or Slovenia. The real Balkanites (Serbs, Bosniaks, Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks) are Christian Arabs for us. The Romanians and the Dalmatian Croatians are the half Balkanites.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

are Christian Arabs for us.

Christian Arabs becouse of what?

And, Dalmatian Croatians mainly originate from Bosnia, so i think these people aren't very geneticly divided?!

[Peterski]

No it's not imaginary.

We Macedonians have much more in common with the Bulgarians than with the Serbs.

Be from point of genetics, cultural point etc.

Are Northern Macedonians any closer to Serbs than Southern and Eastern Macedonians?

[wvwvw]

Christian Arabs becouse of what?

And, Dalmatian Croatians mainly originate from Bosnia, so i think these people aren't very geneticly divided?!

Keep in mind he is Turkish living in Hungary and identifies more with Turks than with Hungarians, see his posting history.

He considers the Balkans Turkish and has been trying badly to associate it with Turkey all the while insulting Balkan countries of being oriental, arabic, natufian etc lmao. It’s called projecting.

[wvwvw]

Are Northern Macedonians any closer to Serbs than Southern and Eastern Macedonians?

Yes considering many have Serbo-Bulgarian ancestry.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

identifies more with Turks than with Hungarians, see his posting history.

That is becouse he knows the history of Hungarians, so it is probably truth!! Hungarians are ancient historically close to Turks.


He considers the Balkans Turkish and has been trying badly to associate it with Turkey all the while insulting Balkan countries of being oriental, arabic, natufian etc lmao. It’s called projecting.

It's incorrect of course. Point is that he maybe alude to "raping", but science proved that raping never happened, and if happened that was by local turkicized people.

[wvwvw]

Bosniaks and Serbs traditionally originate from Eastern Christianity therefore Byzantine/Ottoman mindset where everything American, British,Germanic, Italian is viewed as a "Western" and observed with "Caution".

Byzantine mindset had nothing to do with the Ottoman

[wvwvw]

That is becouse he knows the history of Hungarians, so it is probably truth!! Hungarians are ancient historically close to Turks.



It's incorrect of course. Point is that he maybe alude to "raping", but science proved that raping never happened, and if happened that was by local turkicized people.

Notice the mongol in his avatar

[Bosniensis]

Byzantine mindset had nothing to do with the Ottoman

Ottoman Empire was run by the same people who run Byzantine Empire, at least 30% of Byzantine Strategos were Ottoman Pašas.

Even Mehmed II Fatih himself was Turkified Greek/Serb just like Constantine XI.

Those are not my words, but words from Byzantine Historian Demetrios Chalkokondyles

Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.

I know you have listened a lot of Orthodox propaganda so I don't blame you.

[blogen]

Christian Arabs becouse of what?
And, Dalmatian Croatians mainly originate from Bosnia, so i think these people aren't very geneticly divided?!

Culture, behavior, history. The Balkan was part of the Oriental world since the neolithic. Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, etc. These names: Serbian, Greek, Turkish, Arabs are irrevelant for the Western or Eastern Europeans. The deep south with tyranny, cruelty, unreliability, darkness from the usual western narrative.

A different civilization is not lower or higher grade of course. All civilization is equal, but fundamental differences exist between them. There were some reason of this western narrative. However, the common Balkanite narrative about their place on the word is fals from an outside viewpoint. Serbia and Greece are same place as Turkey or Lebanon with different religion only.

[Kaspias]

Turkey? :D

[blogen]

Ottoman Empire was run by the same people who run Byzantine Empire, at least 30% of Byzantine Strategos were Ottoman Pašas.

Even Mehmed II Fatih himself was Turkified Greek/Serb just like Constantine XI.

Those are not my words, but words from Byzantine Historian Demetrios Chalkokondyles

Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.

I know you have listened a lot of Orthodox propaganda so I don't blame you.

Yes. The etnicities behind the Ottomans were mostly not Turks as the Byzantines were not Greeks usually, but Serbs, Armenians, Greeks, Arabs from everywhere of the Empire and the neighborhood. We never talk about modern ethnicity, when we talk about the Byzantine Greeks or Ottoman Turks, since Byzantium was not Greek, but mostly Greek speking centrum only as Istambul with the case of the Turkish language.

For example the Ottoman Empire was Serbian for the Hungarians, since the majority of the Ottoman occupators and settlers were Rác (Christian Serbs or newly converted Bosniaks) in the occupied territory of Hungary at the Ottoman times. Serb = Ottoman for the Central Europeans. And I think, this situation was similar everywhere in the Byzantine or Ottoman world everytime.

And the 19-20th century western political orientation never changed the basics. The Balkan is messy Oriental borderland and not part of Europe.

[wvwvw]

Ottoman Empire was run by the same people who run Byzantine Empire, at least 30% of Byzantine Strategos were Ottoman Pašas.

Even Mehmed II Fatih himself was Turkified Greek/Serb just like Constantine XI.

Those are not my words, but words from Byzantine Historian Demetrios Chalkokondyles

Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.

I know you have listened a lot of Orthodox propaganda so I don't blame you.

Those people were Islamized Greeks born into Islam raised to hate their own people and detached from Greek culture.

[katniss]

Having read these angry and racist posts in this thread, I wonder what Balkan mentality is.
Is Balkan:
- These heated arguments over subjective nothings
- Seeing your neighbor as very different, inferior, enemy
- Focusing on differences instead of commonalities
- Treating each other with disrespect and being hateful

It doesn’t have to be.
I have hope that Balkan people are better than that.

Greece is on Balkan Peninsula and shares its entire history and a great deal of its culture with the rest of its Balkan neighbors. That doesn’t mean Greece will be exactly the same as other Balkan countries or Greece will be inferior/superior by association.

Just look at the posts of Hungarian users on this forum (stears, blogen...). According to your definition of 'Balkan mentality', Hungarians are the greatest Balkanites.

[Bosniensis]

Those people were Islamized Greeks born into Islam raised to hate their own people and detached from Greek culture.

Christianized Greeks were born to Hate Illyrian and Hellenic Pagans.. so nobody complains.

Time changes, religions change... just because they are not following your religion it doesn't make them less Greek.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

The Balkan is messy Oriental borderland and not part of Europe.

Well, even if it's truth (i don't think it is), it's very hypocrite to say something like that to Serbs who were defending Europe for 500 years... and been killed for it!

[wvwvw]

Christianized Greeks were born to Hate Illyrian and Hellenic Pagans.. so nobody

Time changes, religions change... just because they are not following your religion it doesn't make them less Greek.

Justinian hated pagans and most destructions of Greek temples occured by him before the Roman Empire had split yet into Latin and Greek. The Christianization of Greeks did not finish until the 9th century.

Christian Greeks considered Classical Greeks their ancestors. For example, in the 9th century Peloponnesian Arethas , one of the most important figures Byzantion produced in his Scholia he describes the inhabitants of his native Peloponnesos, as "eggene hellenika gene"(indigenous(or noble) Greek race) "forgetting" the other meaning of the word "Hellene" (idololater), even if he was an Archbishop and one of the three four greatest Byzantine theologians.

[katniss]

For example the Ottoman Empire was Serbian for the Hungarians, since the majority of the Ottoman occupators and settlers were Rác (Christian Serbs or newly converted Bosniaks) in the occupied territory of Hungary at the Ottoman times.

And the 19-20th century western political orientation never changed the basics. The Balkan is messy Oriental borderland and not part of Europe.

Most of them were Islamized Hungarians who had been slaughtered or forcibly converted to the Catholisicm after Turkish retreat from Hungary. Instead of thinking about Ottoman conquests in the 16th century, you should better think about war crimes committed by Hungarians in occupied Serbia during the 20th century (WWI and WWII wars).


Serb = Ottoman for the Central Europeans. And I think, this situation was similar everywhere in the Byzantine or Ottoman world everytime.

Then, "central European" is very uneducated. There is no nation who suffered more during Ottoman rule than Serbs.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Culture, behavior, history. The Balkan was part of the Oriental world since the neolithic. Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, etc. These names: Serbian, Greek, Turkish, Arabs are irrevelant for the Western or Eastern Europeans. The deep south with tyranny, cruelty, unreliability, darkness from the usual western narrative.

A different civilization is not lower or higher grade of course. All civilization is equal, but fundamental differences exist between them. There were some reason of this western narrative. However, the common Balkanite narrative about their place on the word is fals from an outside viewpoint. Serbia and Greece are same place as Turkey or Lebanon with different religion only.

Then i am asking myself, how is then possible, that all Western civilisation is based on ancient Greek. Does it make West as Oriental too??

[Vožd]

Are Northern Macedonians any closer to Serbs than Southern and Eastern Macedonians?

Yes, north Macedonia have significant Serbian medieval hertige.
Northern borders of Macedonia is based on ancient northern Macedonian borders not on ethnic or cultural.

[Stears]

Most of them were Islamized Hungarians who had been slaughtered or forcibly converted to the Catholisicm after Turkish retreat from Hungary. Instead of thinking about Ottoman conquests in the 16th century, you should better think about war crimes committed by Hungarians in occupied Serbia during the 20th century (WWI and WWII wars).



Then, "central European" is very uneducated. There is no nation who suffered more during Ottoman rule than Serbs.


The vast majority of the seventeen and nineteen thousands Ottoman soldiers in service in the Ottoman fortresses in the territory of Hungary were Orthodox and Muslim Balkan Slavs instead of ethnic Turkish people.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Habsburg_wars#cite_note-21) Southern Slavs were also acting as akinjis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ak%C4%B1nc%C4%B1) and other light troops intended for pillaging in the territory of present-day Hungary.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Habsburg_wars#cite_note-22)

The Hungarian inhabitants of cities moved to other places when they felt threatened by the Ottoman military presence. Without exception, in the cities that became Ottoman administrative centers the Christian population decreased. The Hungarian population remained only in some cities, where the Ottoman garrisons were not installed.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary#cite_note-11) Since the early 17th century, Serbian refugees formed ethnic majority in large parts of the Ottoman-controlled Hungary. That area included territories located between great rivers Sava, Drava, and the Danube–Tisza Interfluve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube%E2%80%93Tisza_Interfluve) (the territory between the Danube and Tisza rivers).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary#cite_note-12)

[Vožd]

For example the Ottoman Empire was Serbian for the Hungarians
How can be "Serbian" when Serbs always fight against them?


since the majority of the Ottoman occupators and settlers were Rác (Christian Serbs or newly converted Bosniaks) in the occupied territory of Hungary at the Ottoman times. Serb = Ottoman for the Central Europeans. And I think, this situation was similar everywhere in the Byzantine or Ottoman world everytime.
Rac is Hungarian term for south Slavs, not only Serbs.


The Balkan is messy Oriental borderland and not part of Europe.
Balkan can not be putted anywhere as whole. Its culturaly very mixed region, and this mixatures are even different by Balkan parts.
Maybe best term is "Bridge between cultures", some parts are closer to one, some to another culture, some is on center of bridge.


Culture, behavior, history.
There is not Balkan culture, especially not "behavior" (put some examples if you think different). History of Balkan is also different by regions.


The Balkan was part of the Oriental world since the neolithic.
What you talking about?


Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, etc.
1. You should educate about this two cultures before you put together in same category
2. What etc?


These names: Serbian, Greek, Turkish, Arabs are irrevelant for the Western or Eastern Europeans
Maybe because Serbia and Greece are south European countries, Turkey Asian and Arabian states African/Asian?


The deep south with tyranny, cruelty, unreliability, darkness from the usual western narrative.
Bullshits. Even medieval Serbia under emperor Dušan was peacfull comparing to western incvisition. Dont forget a centuries of blood between Catholic and Protestants, between France and England etc.


Serbia and Greece are same place as Turkey or Lebanon with different religion only.

Serbia and Greece is different betwen each other, and you claiming these countries same to Lebanon :D
Ok put some example what Serbia, Greece and Lebanon have together which Hungary not? :D

[Bosniensis]

Justinian hated pagans and most destructions of Greek temples occured by him before the Roman Empire had split yet into Latin and Greek. The Christianization of Greeks did not finish until the 9th century.

Christian Greeks considered Classical Greeks their ancestors. For example, in the 9th century Peloponnesian Arethas , one of the most important figures Byzantion produced in his Scholia he describes the inhabitants of his native Peloponnesos, as "eggene hellenika gene"(indigenous(or noble) Greek race) "forgetting" the other meaning of the word "Hellene" (idololater), even if he was an Archbishop and one of the three four greatest Byzantine theologians.

Just like Diocletian slaughtered Christians, the same way Constantine I favored Christians over Pagans, there were mass murders, false accusations up to such extent that Emperor Julian (who was favored by Pagans) and Pagan himself
had to issue A NEW DECLARATION:

On 4 February 362, Julian promulgated an edict to guarantee freedom of religion. This edict proclaimed that all the religions were equal before the law, and that the Roman Empire had to return to its original religious eclecticism, according to which the Roman state did not impose any religion on its provinces.

This declaration clearly reveals a clear prosecution of Pagans, therefore Christianity came by Force during the times of Constantine I.

So ... nothing is bright and shiny about arrival of Christianity... it came exactly through same path as Islam (through Emperor) both willingly and by force.

[katniss]

The vast majority of the seventeen and nineteen thousands Ottoman soldiers in service in the Ottoman fortresses in the territory of Hungary were Orthodox and Muslim Balkan Slavs instead of ethnic Turkish people.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Habsburg_wars#cite_note-21) Southern Slavs were also acting as akinjis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ak%C4%B1nc%C4%B1) and other light troops intended for pillaging in the territory of present-day Hungary.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Habsburg_wars#cite_note-22)

The Hungarian inhabitants of cities moved to other places when they felt threatened by the Ottoman military presence. Without exception, in the cities that became Ottoman administrative centers the Christian population decreased. The Hungarian population remained only in some cities, where the Ottoman garrisons were not installed.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary#cite_note-11) Since the early 17th century, Serbian refugees formed ethnic majority in large parts of the Ottoman-controlled Hungary. That area included territories located between great rivers Sava, Drava, and the Danube–Tisza Interfluve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube%E2%80%93Tisza_Interfluve) (the territory between the Danube and Tisza rivers).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary#cite_note-12)

As usual your source is wikipedia. Was there any census of soldiers? I doubt. Even if that statement is true, these people had been islamized (later forcibly converted to the Catholicism) and their descendants are today Hungarians, Bosniaks or Croats, not Serbs.


Yes. The etnicities behind the Ottomans were mostly HUNGARIANS not Turks

So, Hungary is messy Oriental land and not part of Europe at all.

[Bosniensis]

How can be "Serbian" when Serbs always fight against them?



You need to learn that Serbian royality had relations with Ottoman Greeks, and Mara Branković was given to Michael (Murat) who later gave birth to Mehmed II.

Yes he fought Serbs, just like Orthodox Greeks fought Stepen Dušan.. nothing new.




Maybe because Serbia and Greece are south European countries, Turkey Asian and Arabian states African/Asian?



How can Anatolia be Asian when Europe Emerged in Anatolia and Crete?

You are reading too much propaganda. Just because Anatolian Greeks converted to Islam like Bosniaks that doesn't make them Asians

But of course.. Orthodox Church will tell you otherwise. They will tell you that Omer Paša Latas was Turk as well.

[Lavrentis]

These names: Serbian, Greek, Turkish, Arabs are irrevelant for the Western or Eastern Europeans.

Greece is far more known to Western and Eastern Europeans than Hungary is, mostly for historical reasons.

Everything that you said about Greece in this thread is nonsense, but most Greeks wouldn’t mind, they would simply consider you as a toxic Eastern European.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vožd]

You need to learn that Serbian royality had relations with Ottoman Greeks, and Mara Branković was given to Michael (Murat) who later gave birth to Mehmed II.

We talking about late occupacy period (in time where "Racs" live in Austria/Hungary).



How can Anatolia be Asian when Europe Emerged in Anatolia and Crete?
Well, its official.


You are reading too much propaganda. Just because Anatolian Greeks converted to Islam like Bosniaks that doesn't make them Asians
Turks on Turkish Thrace are Europeans.


But of course.. Orthodox Church will tell you otherwise.
No, im just follow official opinion about continents division.


They will tell you that Omer Paša Latas was Turk as well.
Many islamic Slavs declare self as Turks, Turk was synonyme for muslim.

[Stears]

How can be "Serbian" when Serbs always fight against them?
really ? :))))))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis


Rac is Hungarian term for south Slavs, not only Serbs.
Wrong. Rac = Serb
Because Rascia was old name for Serbia.

[Danaan]

We gave the name to Europe and Asia. We will decide who is European (or Asian) and who isn't.

Don't forget that, we named Europe after a Phoenician woman who was the mother of a Cretan king.

[Stears]

As usual your source is wikipedia. Was there any census of soldiers? I doubt. Even if that statement is true, these people had been islamized (later forcibly converted to the Catholicism) and their descendants are today Hungarians, Bosniaks or Croats, not Serbs.



So, Hungary is messy Oriental land and not part of Europe at all.

Wrong. The orthodox soldiers were never islamized, because the Ottomans did not care for the religion of their servants. Orthodoxy was the vassal church for them, so it was not dangerous to have orthodox settlers in the region.

Deal with it.

[cosmoo]

On what basis does one group Montenegro with Macedonia/Albania/Bulgaria? No points of connection whatsoever.
Dinaric Alps of western Balkans are a separate unit both on bases of culture and of physical anthropology. The center being in Montenegro, it includes Herzegovina and spreads to areas where people from both have settled.

[Bosniensis]

We talking about late occupacy period (in time where "Racs" live in Austria/Hungary).


[QUOTE]
Well, its official.


Turks on Turkish Thrace are Europeans.



Matters of European Borders and European History are YET to be discussed on Balkans, not in Germany.

Nothing is official since we haven't yet decided the borders of Europe. Europe is a Balkan product, Germans have nothing to do with Europe.

[Vožd]

really ? :))))))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis
We talking about late ocupacy period.
I can also put this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_P%C3%A1rk%C3%A1ny


Wrong. Rac = Serb
Because Rascia was old name for Serbia.

Bunjevci are Serbs?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Wrong. The orthodox soldiers were never islamized, because the Ottomans did not care for the religion of their servants. Orthodoxy was the vassal church for them, so it was not dangerous to have orthodox settlers in the region.

Deal with it.

How if they never conquered all Orthodox European territories ?

[Vožd]

On what basis does one group Montenegro with Macedonia/Albania/Bulgaria? No points of connection whatsoever.
Dinaric Alps of western Balkans are a separate unit both on bases of culture and of physical anthropology. The center being in Montenegro, it includes Herzegovina and spreads to areas where people from both have settled.

True

[Vožd]

[QUOTE=Vožd;4892757]We talking about late occupacy period (in time where "Racs" live in Austria/Hungary).




Matters of European Borders and European History are YET to be discussed on Balkans, not in Germany.

Nothing is official since we haven't yet decided the borders of Europe. Europe is a Balkan product, Germans have nothing to do with Europe.

Europe is geographic term just like Balkan, with many different cultures, genes, languages etc.

[Bosniensis]

https://i.imgur.com/fXoxh8y.png

[Bosniensis]

[QUOTE=Bosniensis;4892795]

Europe is geographic term just like Balkan, with many different cultures, genes, languages etc.

No.

Europe is invented on Crete, and there is a Creation Myth about Europa (and people that were included in Europe)

Phonix (Phoenecian lands), Cilix (Anatolia), Cadmus (people descended from Cadmus = Gauls (Celts), Illyrians etc..

Only those people are Europeans.

But since that wasn't an acceptable explanation for IE Invaders like Germans, they had to invent "Indo-Germanic theory" and they had to expand Europe beyond Danube river and East of Rhine river.

[katniss]

Historically Serbs and Ottomans were never on the same side. Serbia was forced to be Turkish vassal before Ottomans conquered the whole country. The same as many other Christian vassals (Bulgaria, Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania and other vassals).
Vassal and tributary states of the Ottoman Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal_and_tributary_states_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

[Stears]

We talking about late ocupacy period.
I can also put this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_P%C3%A1rk%C3%A1ny
Yes, these Protestant guys were considered traitors by Hungarian historians. But it was never recognized territory...


Bunjevci are Serbs?
They not called rac in Hungary.

[Kelmendasi]

On what basis does one group Montenegro with Macedonia/Albania/Bulgaria? No points of connection whatsoever.
Dinaric Alps of western Balkans are a separate unit both on bases of culture and of physical anthropology. The center being in Montenegro, it includes Herzegovina and spreads to areas where people from both have settled.
Albania and Montenegro(the East) do share some things in common such as haplogroups and some traditions from what I have seen. Also Albania is part of the Dinaric alps although I do agree that it is different from the other countries from there.

[katniss]

really ? :))))))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis



Serbia was forced to be Turkish vassal before Ottomans conquered the whole country. The same as many other Christian vassals (Bulgaria, Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania and other vassals).
Vassal and tributary states of the Ottoman Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal...Ottoman_Empire

[wvwvw]

We talking about late occupacy period (in time where "Racs" live in Austria/Hungary).



Well, its official.


Turks on Turkish Thrace are Europeans.


No, im just follow official opinion about continents division.


Many islamic Slavs declare self as Turks, Turk was synonyme for muslim.

Turks on Turkish Thrace aren’t natives. It’s as absurd as saying that Southern Spaniards are moors. Just like Southern spaniards originate from Northern Spain so do the Turkish ethnogenesis took place Eastern Turkey.

To imply that modern Turks have the faintest connection to the pre-ottoman people of Thrace is ludicrous. What you call Thracians considered themselves hardcore Greeks for millenia of years, that!s millenia more years than Albaniens begun to consider themselves Illyrians, or the Bulgarians Thracians.

In 4th century emperor boast because :

“Esmen gar tes Hellados oi peri ten Thraken kai ten Ionian oikountes eggonoi, kai ostis emon me liana gnomon, pothei proeipein tous pateras kai ten choran auten aspasasthai.”

”We the inhabitants of Thrace and Ionia are sons of Greece, and whoever from us isn’t ungrateful, desire to salute their fathers and kiss her ground(Greece’s)”.

Those indigenous people of Thrace were later ethnically cleansed to Greece (those that weren’t genocided) and to Bulgaria. Turks from other parts of Turkey replaced them.

[Vožd]

Left side: EUROPE

Right side: People who invaded Europe from Indo-European lands.

All peoples on the Right side came to Europe in between 4th and 10th century, and were not present before.


https://i.imgur.com/fXoxh8y.png

And many of them from right side become also Ottoman vassal after defeated, just like Serbs who fight against Ottomans since 1352. on Demotika
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian%E2%80%93Turkish_conflicts

So, its not reason what you talking about :D

[Bosniensis]

Historically Serbs and Ottomans were never on the same side. Serbia was forced to be Turkish vassal before Ottomans conquered the whole country. The same as many other Christian vassals (Bulgaria, Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania and other vassals).
Vassal and tributary states of the Ottoman Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal_and_tributary_states_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

Everyone wanted to get the Capital City (Constantinople), everyone had claims to be "Roman Emperor"

1. Stephen Dušan marched towards Constantinople to claim the title but failed (Claiming Ancestry from Constantine I the Great)
2. George Maniakes marched but failed
3. Mehmed II also Greek/Serb marched and succeed.

and many others.

That's why Serbs fought both Greeks and so called "Turks".. Islamized Greeks.

Serbs were always subjugated by Greeks until Stefan Vojislav managed to despose Theophilos Erotikos from Belgrade, just like with Turks.

Islamized Greeks did nothing to Serbs what Orthodox Greeks did not.

Orthodox Greeks Christianized Serbs to Christianity
Islamized Greeks Islamized Serbs to Islam.

For example Ottoman Governor of Belgrade Mihaloğlu Ali Bey was in fact Byzantine Governor called: Michael Cosses of Chirmenekia.

[Vožd]

Yes, these Protestant guys were considered traitors by Hungarian historians. But it was never recognized territory...
Are they also fight against Ottomans like Stefan Lazarević?


They not called rac in Hungary.
Are you sure?

[Vožd]

Turks on Turkish Thrace aren’t natives. It’s as absurd as saying that Southern Spaniards are moors. Just like Southern spaniards originate from Northern Spain so do the Turkish ethnogenesis took place Eastern Turkey.
I mean Europeans by geografical term, Thrace is also part of Europe.

[wvwvw]

Everyone wanted to get the Capital City (Constantinople), everyone had claims to be "Roman Emperor"

1. Stephen Dušan marched towards Constantinople to claim the title but failed (Claiming Ancestry from Constantine I the Great)
2. George Maniakes marched but failed
3. Mehmed II also Greek/Serb marched and succeed.

and many others.

That's why Serbs fought both Greeks and so called "Turks".. Islamized Greeks.

Serbs were always subjugated by Greeks until Stefan Vojislav managed to despose Theophilos Erotikos from Belgrade, just like with Turks.

Islamized Greeks did nothing to Serbs what Orthodox Greeks did not.

Orthodox Greeks Christianized Serbs to Christianity
Islamized Greeks Islamized Serbs to Islam.

The Turks weren’t Islamized Greeks you silly. Although some abducted Greek children ended up Sultans or Janissaries that doesn’t mean Turks were Islamized Greeks.

In fact Ottomans lived like parasites off the labor of Christians. Greeks never collectivelly converted to Islam. At the turn of the century Turks were ’only’ 2,5 Times more than the Greek population. Most of the population boom in Turkey took place after the establishment of the Turkish republic by Ataturk.

[RN97]

Having read these angry and racist posts in this thread, I wonder what Balkan mentality is.
Is Balkan:
- These heated arguments over subjective nothings
- Seeing your neighbor as very different, inferior, enemy
- Focusing on differences instead of commonalities
- Treating each other with disrespect and being hateful

It doesn’t have to be.
I have hope that Balkan people are better than that.

Greece is on Balkan Peninsula and shares its entire history and a great deal of its culture with the rest of its Balkan neighbors. That doesn’t mean Greece will be exactly the same as other Balkan countries or Greece will be inferior/superior by association.

When arguing or discussing about cultural differences or differences between countries in general one usually uses arguments based upon what you can quantify, i.e. in A country 50% are non-religious, while in B country 96% are religious so A can be said to be secular compared to B. In A 35% of women get married before the age of 16, while in B marriage of women under 16 is illegal so A is backwards because child marriage is not something I think is good.... So forth and so forth. However how can you really quantify something such as "mentality"? You can relate it to things you can quantify. For example spousal abuse rates = mentality that women are of no/ low value. Overall, you still can't quantify "mentality". Believe me, I've tried to ask them. Ask them about what specifically makes a mentality a "balkan mentality" and I always get the same redundant idiotic answer. Paraphrasing it would be something along the lines of "you just can feel it, when you're around them. Horror, darkness, that's their world. It's not our mentality in the western catholic world". These people are simply delusional.

[Vožd]

Albania and Montenegro(the East) do share some things in common such as haplogroups and some traditions from what I have seen. Also Albania is part of the Dinaric alps although I do agree that it is different from the other countries from there.

What shares south and north Albanians in genetics?

[Kelmendasi]

What shares south and north Albanians in genetics?
Ghegs and Tosks are practically the same, there’s only a few genetic differences in autosomal and haplogroups

[Vožd]

Ask them about what specifically makes a mentality a "balkan mentality" and I always get the same redundant idiotic answer.

:thumb001:

[Bosniensis]

The Turks weren’t Islamized Greeks you silly. Although some abducted Greek children ended up Sultans or Janissaries that doesn’t mean Turks were Islamized Greeks.

In fact Ottomans lived like parasites off the labor of Christians. Greeks never collectivelly converted to Islam. At the turn of the century Turks were ’only’ 2,5 Times more than the Greek population. Most of the population boom in Turkey took place after the establishment of the Turkish republic by Ataturk.

Entire Roman Anatolia converted to Islam during the Sultanate of Rum (Subject state of Mongol Emperor Tamerlane and others before him).

Ottoman Dynasty is a Greek dynasty that descended from those Greeks who accepted Islam and Turkish language.

At least 18 million Turks are Greeks. Nobody can deny it...

[katniss]

Believe me, I've tried to ask them. Ask them about what specifically makes a mentality a "balkan mentality" and I always get the same redundant idiotic answer. Paraphrasing it would be something along the lines of "you just can feel it, when you're around them. Horror, darkness, that's their world. It's not our mentality in the western catholic world". These people are simply delusional.

:thumb001:

[Laberia]

How if they never conquered all Orthodox European territories ?
This time he is right.

[Laberia]

Turks on Turkish Thrace aren’t natives. It’s as absurd as saying that Southern Spaniards are moors. Just like Southern spaniards originate from Northern Spain so do the Turkish ethnogenesis took place Eastern Turkey.

To imply that modern Turks have the faintest connection to the pre-ottoman people of Thrace is ludicrous. What you call Thracians considered themselves hardcore Greeks for millenia of years, that!s millenia more years than Albaniens begun to consider themselves Illyrians, or the Bulgarians Thracians.

In 4th century emperor boast because :

“Esmen gar tes Hellados oi peri ten Thraken kai ten Ionian oikountes eggonoi, kai ostis emon me liana gnomon, pothei proeipein tous pateras kai ten choran auten aspasasthai.”

”We the inhabitants of Thrace and Ionia are sons of Greece, and whoever from us isn’t ungrateful, desire to salute their fathers and kiss her ground(Greece’s)”.

Those indigenous people of Thrace were later ethnically cleansed to Greece (those that weren’t genocided) and to Bulgaria. Turks from other parts of Turkey replaced them.

Elgin Marble Argument in a New Light

By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN
Published: June 23, 2009

“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.

“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”

This myth required excavators on the Acropolis during the 19th century to erase Ottoman traces and purify the site as the crucible of classicism. The Erechtheion had been a harem, the Parthenon a mosque. “But Greek archaeology has always been a kind of fantasy,” Antonis Liakos, a leading Greek historian, noted the other day. The repatriation argument, relying on claims of historical integrity, itself distorts history.
Source:
Elgin Marble Argument in a New Light (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all)
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/nytimes_Elgin-Marble.png

[Laberia]

This time he is right.

I mean about the collaboration of Orthodoxy with Ottomans against the Catholics.

[Stears]

Serbia was forced to be Turkish vassal before Ottomans conquered the whole country. The same as many other Christian vassals (Bulgaria, Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania and other vassals).
Vassal and tributary states of the Ottoman Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal...Ottoman_Empire


Serbian population territorially expanded by Ottoman conquests. Until all other ethnic groups shrinked. It shows everything.

[blogen]

Then i am asking myself, how is then possible, that all Western civilisation is based on ancient Greek. Does it make West as Oriental too??

The Western civilization had nothing to do with the ancient Greeks. The Western civilization is 90% German barbarian culture with 10% Late Roman culture (Christianity) without any Greek thing. I know about the contemporary Greek hallucinations about their ancient relatives' role, hovewer, the ancient Greek culture lived on in the Byzantine and the Arab culture and not in the Western. Even the late Roman world was almost clear from the Hellenism!

[Massagetae]

Entire Roman Anatolia converted to Islam during the Sultanate of Rum (Subject state of Mongol Emperor Tamerlane and others before him).

Ottoman Dynasty is a Greek dynasty that descended from those Greeks who accepted Islam and Turkish language.

At least 18 million Turks are Greeks. Nobody can deny it...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaahah. 18 Million Greeks, 24 Million Albanians, 10 Million Arabs, 7 Million Circassians.

Poor Turkos ami rite wwwvwvw.

[Laberia]

The Western civilization had nothing to do with the ancient Greeks. The Western civilization is 90% German barbarian culture with 10% Late Roman culture (Christianity) without any Greek thing. I know about the contemporary Greek hallucinations about their ancient relatives' role, hovewer, the ancient Greek culture lived on in the Byzantine and the Arab culture and not in the Western. Even the late Roman world was almost clear from the Hellenism!

This is totally crap.
BTW, you are just Christian Turks.

[Laberia]

Serbia was forced to be Turkish vassal before Ottomans conquered the whole country. The same as many other Christian vassals (Bulgaria, Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania and other vassals).
Vassal and tributary states of the Ottoman Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal...Ottoman_Empire

Nobody forced you, not in that sense. Were your ancestors who decided to be the vassals of the Ottomans. Apart Orthodox Albanians and some isolated cases, the rest of the Orthodoxy joined Ottomans against the Catholics. The enemy for the servian lords were not the muslim Ottomans but the catholic Hungarians. And Ottomans appreciated this your decision. When they left Balkans after roughly 500 years, Belgrade once an southern Hungarian city became the capital of servia. This is history.

[Bosniensis]

Nobody forced you, not in that sense. Were your ancestors who decided to be the vassals of the Ottomans. Apart Orthodox Albanians and some isolated cases, the rest of the Orthodoxy joined Ottomans against the Catholics. The enemy for the servian lords were not the muslim Ottomans but the catholic Hungarians. And Ottomans appreciated this your decision. When they left Balkans after roughly 500 years, Belgrade once an southern Hungarian city became the capital of servia. This is history.

Greatest Ottoman Generals were Serbs yet they have somehow "vassals"..

9 million Serbs are muslims even today if you count Bosniaks, but still they were "subjugated vassals somehow".

Fairy tale.

[blogen]

How can be "Serbian" when Serbs always fight against them?

Baseless modern urban legend between the Serbs. They were the Ottomans himself between the 15-17th century. They accepted the situation and they were successful in the Ottoman world, since this was the only world for them. It's understandable.


Rac is Hungarian term for south Slavs, not only Serbs.

Only the Serbs and the Bosniaks were Rác.


Balkan can not be putted anywhere as whole. Its culturaly very mixed region, and this mixatures are even different by Balkan parts.
Maybe best term is "Bridge between cultures", some parts are closer to one, some to another culture, some is on center of bridge.

Yes, it's a borderland for the Oriental world as the Caucasus or Afghanistan, but the foreign influence (Western and Eastern European) are only influence on the Balkan and not basic part of the local culture.


There is not Balkan culture, especially not "behavior" (put some examples if you think different). History of Balkan is also different by regions.

Basically a behavior. The typical Oriental unreliability, extreme cruelty, religious/ideological fanatism, etc. The typical cultural trait of the oriental world.


What you talking about?

The foundations of the civlization are older than the exisiting civilization. A civilization is a continuation of the predecessor civlization. The middle Danube-valley/Balkan region was the main borderland between the European and the Near-Eastern civilization since the recoil of the Körös culture. Presumably because environmental and geographical reasons. Sometimes the Balkan was part of Europe, sometimes not. The ancient Greeks were borderland between the Oriens and the European barbarian world, while the medieval Greeks not, since this border was shifted to the north, to the Danube and stabilized there for the new epoch.


1. You should educate about this two cultures before you put together in same category
2. What etc?

Two culture? Same culture! The Byzanto-Ottoman words is the same thing. The Ottomans were the natura continuation of the Byzantines in almost every thing.


Bullshits. Even medieval Serbia under emperor Dušan was peacfull comparing to western incvisition. Dont forget a centuries of blood between Catholic and Protestants, between France and England etc.

1848-49 or 1944-45 in the Hungarian Southland (you called Voivodina) was the last evidences for the Serbian extreme cruelty. Basically the Serbians are not part of the human race in the Hungarian narrative, bus some disgusting animals only. Sorry, but we have some observations about the Serbian mongrels.

[Laberia]

Greatest Ottoman Generals were Serbs yet they have somehow "vassals"..

9 million Serbs are muslims even today if you count Bosniaks, but still they were "subjugated vassals somehow".

Fairy tale.
I don`t know where you find these millions.

[blogen]

This is totally crap.
BTW, you are just Christian Turks.

Yes, we are Christian barbarians as our Ugric, Turkic, various Iranian and Slavonic ancestors, who were part of the Hungarian ethnogenesis. The Hungarians are somewere between the Western (catholic and protestant Europe) and the Eastern European civilizations (Russia + the steppe). But we nothing to do with the Balkan and the other parts of the Oriens. The Germans or the Russians are familiar for us, but the Albanians are same strangers as the Arabs for example.

[Bosniensis]

I don`t know where you find these millions.

2,5 milion West Balkans

3 milion Istanbul

3,5 milion rest of anatolia

but that's nothing in comparison with Greeks who have 18+ millions.

[Laberia]

Yes, we are Christian barbarians as our Ugric, Turkic, various Iranian and Slavonic ancestors, who were part of the Hungarian ethnogenesis. The Hungarians are somewere between the Western (catholic and protestant Europe) and the Eastern European civilizations (Russia + the steppe). But we nothing to do with the Balkan and the other parts of the Oriens. The Germans or the Russians are familiar for us, but the Albanians are same strangers as the Arabs for example.
No, we are not strangers and not Arabs. We are Albanians, probably the most ancient population of this Continent.

[Laberia]

2,5 milion West Balkans

3 milion Istanbul

3,5 milion rest of anatolia

but that's nothing in comparison with Greeks who have 18+ millions.


I don`t know where you find these millions.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

The Western civilization had nothing to do with the ancient Greeks. The Western civilization is 90% German barbarian culture with 10% Late Roman culture (Christianity) without any Greek thing. I know about the contemporary Greek hallucinations about their ancient relatives' role, hovewer, the ancient Greek culture lived on in the Byzantine and the Arab culture and not in the Western. Even the late Roman world was almost clear from the Hellenism!

Do you consider Wikipedia as real?

If you do, here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_humanism

Renaissance and humanism are hardly based on ancient Greece... So... It would be nonsense to say that Western culture is carrying nothing from ancient Greece and Byzantium.

[Bosniensis]

..

There are up to 2.000.000 Bosniaks in Turkey

Source wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks_in_Turkey

Now can you imagine how many Serbs, Montenegrins etc...

Can you then imagine how many Greeks are in Turkey (Islamized Greeks from 11th century)... if there are up to 2.000.000 Bosniaks... there are at least 10 times more Greeks.

But Attaturk of Course... "Turkified" everything.

The only reason why Turks survived in Anatolia is because they were supported by Mongol Empire, but in reality they were minority among the natives.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

they were supported by Mongol Empire

??

Really.

[Bosniensis]

??

Really.

Sultanate of Rum was a vassal state where Turkified Greeks lived, who were Turkified and Islamized by Mongol Empire (Timurids, Ilkhaganate and others).

"Moreover, Byzantine influence in the Sultanate of Rum was also significant, since Greek aristocracy remained part of the Seljuk nobility, and the local Greek population was enormous in the region"

Ottomans... they were Greek dynasty from those Turkified Greeks.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/MongolEmpireDivisions1300.png

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Sultanate of Rum was a vassal state where Turkified Greeks lived, who were Turkified and Islamized by Mongol Empire (Timurids, Ilkhaganate and others).

"Moreover, Byzantine influence in the Sultanate of Rum was also significant, since Greek aristocracy remained part of the Seljuk nobility, and the local Greek population was enormous in the region"

Mongol Empire end in 1368. Timurids become to exist in 1370 year. So how actually Timurids could be Mongol Empire? Timurids had nothing to do with Mongol Empire except their ruler Timur who "claimed" Mongol Genghis Khan heritage.

[katniss]

Nobody forced you, not in that sense. Were your ancestors who decided to be the vassals of the Ottomans. Apart Orthodox Albanians and some isolated cases, the rest of the Orthodoxy joined Ottomans against the Catholics. The enemy for the servian lords were not the muslim Ottomans but the catholic Hungarians. And Ottomans appreciated this your decision.

I supposed that main reason of posting such ridiculous nonsense is the attempt to delude people who know absolutely nothing about the history of this part of Europe. Turkish rule spanned a period of several hundred years. The main Turkish collaborators were of course Islamized population, mostly Albanians.


When they left Balkans after roughly 500 years, Belgrade once an southern Hungarian city became the capital of servia. This is history.

The history of human settlements on the territory of present day Belgrade dates back to at least 7000 BC. There were many rulers. Fortress in the territory of present day Belgrade were under Hungarian rule at some point of medieval history. Modern city Belgrade has nothing to do with Hungarians and there is absolutely nothing Hungarian in it. When will you stop posting nonsense and lies, malicious snake.

[Massagetae]

Your numbers are wrong Bosniesesss.......we have 40,000,000 Bosnians in Turkey.

[Bosniensis]

Mongol Empire end in 1368. Timurids become to exist in 1370 year. So how actually Timurids could be Mongol Empire? Timurids had nothing to do with Mongol Empire except their ruler Timur who "claimed" Mongol Genghis Khan heritage.

They were united as a single empire, then divided in smaller empires.

Turks that conquered Anatolia were subjects to Mongol Rulers.

Mongol Empire existed from 1206 - 14th century

Even before Mongol Empire was formed, Turkish Hordes were already spread all over Asia and eventually conquered Anatolia 11/12th century.

All I am saying that Greeks could not reconquest Anatolia and liberate Greeks cause Turks in Anatolia were supported by Mongols, during that period many Greeks converted to Islam.

[Laberia]

But these are Bosniaks.

There are up to 2.000.000 Bosniaks in Turkey

Source wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks_in_Turkey

Now can you imagine how many Serbs, Montenegrins etc...

Can you then imagine how many Greeks are in Turkey (Islamized Greeks from 11th century)... if there are up to 2.000.000 Bosniaks... there are at least 10 times more Greeks.

But Attaturk of Course... "Turkified" everything.

The only reason why Turks survived in Anatolia is because they were supported by Mongol Empire, but in reality they were minority among the natives.
No, i can not imagine because it`s not how this works, with imagination. I asked you data to prove your claims about 9.000.000 muslim servs.

Greatest Ottoman Generals were Serbs yet they have somehow "vassals"..

9 million Serbs are muslims even today if you count Bosniaks, but still they were "subjugated vassals somehow".

Fairy tale.



2,5 milion West Balkans

3 milion Istanbul

3,5 milion rest of anatolia

but that's nothing in comparison with Greeks who have 18+ millions.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Even before Mongol Empire was formed, Turkish Hordes were already spread all over Asia and eventually conquered Anatolia 11/12th century.

That's another story.

But Turks, as Turks, never were supported by Mongol Empire. Actually, Timurids by the way weren't Mongols, but majority Uzbeks (Turkics as well).

[Bosniensis]

That's another story.

But Turks, as Turks, never were supported by Mongol Empire. Actually, Timurids by the way weren't Mongols, but majority Uzbeks (Turkics as well).

Lol.

Turks = Mongols.

There wasn't a single Turk in Anatolia before 1100 A.D.

Genghis Khan was Turk, he is a cousin of those Turks that live in Anatolia today.

Whoever isn't related to Mongols, Gokturks and similar... is Greek, Armenian or some other Balkaner.

It is well known that Turks were Muslim, Tengrists and Shamanists... IMHO Greeks took Islam, still better than Tengrism.

[Laberia]

I supposed that main reason of posting such ridiculous nonsense is the attempt to delude people who know absolutely nothing about the history of this part of Europe. Turkish rule spanned a period of several hundred years. The main Turkish collaborators were of course Islamized population, mostly Albanians.



The history of human settlements on the territory of present day Belgrade dates back to at least 7000 BC. There were many rulers. Fortress in the territory of present day Belgrade were under Hungarian rule at some point of medieval history. Modern city Belgrade has nothing to do with Hungarians and there is absolutely nothing Hungarian in it. When will you stop posting nonsense and lies, malicious snake.
HERE (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?186218-Serbian-sodomy-over-Catholic-Croatia&p=3948686&highlight=Rovine#post3948686) is the answer for you, pussycat. If you have arguments against my post, well, i am here, go ahead.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Lol.

Turks = Mongols.

There wasn't a single Turk in Anatolia before 1100 A.D.

Genghis Khan was Turk, he is a cousin of those Turks that live in Anatolia today.

Whoever isn't related to Mongols, Gokturks and similar... is Greek, Armenian or some other Balkaner.

Nothing common between them except their language family. Genghis Khan was by paternal line clear Mongol.

[Bosniensis]

Nothing common between them except their language family. Genghis Khan was by paternal line clear Mongol.

And Turkish Paternal line?

Don't be ridiculous all Turks descend from Altai mountains.

Mongols are just the most superior Turks, others are inferior like Gokturks etc..

Look at Gokturks (whom some modern Turks celebrate)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Tujue_Khanate.png

Turks are Turks... Genghis Khan is a Turk who Ruled over Anatolia and Turkified Greeks, (maybe not personally but though subordinates).

[Vlatko Vukovic]

And Turkish Paternal line?

Don't be ridiculous all Turks descend from Altai mountains.

Mongols are just the most superior Turks, others are inferior like Gokturks etc..

Look at Gokturks (whom some modern Turks celebrate)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Tujue_Khanate.png

Turks are Turks... Genghis Khan is a Turk who Ruled over Anatolia and Turkified Greeks, (maybe not personally but though subordinates).

And what if they are from the Altai mountains? Does it makes them equal to Mongols? Or Mongols equal to them? Actually, Genghis Khan killed a lot Turks in reallity.

[Bosniensis]

And what if they are from the Altai mountains? Does it makes them equal to Mongols? Or Mongols equal to them? Actually, Genghis Khan killed a lot Turks in reallity.

So what?

All Emperors had to kill a lot of their own people before they could establish themselves as True Emperors.

It wasn't easy for him to rule over vast numbers of Turkish Hordes, Tribes... some clans supported different Khans for "Khan of Khans" title etc...

Nothing unusual.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

So what?

All Emperors had to kill a lot of their own people before they could establish themselves as True Emperors.

It wasn't easy for him to rule over vast numbers of Turkish Hordes, Tribes... some clans supported different Khans for "Khan of Khans" title etc...

Nothing unusual.

Point is that you can't say something like Turks = Mongols, something like that doesn't exist in the science. Those are 2 different ethnic groups with difference languages (of same origin, but still very different) and with different way of history.

Average Turkic have some Indoeuropean part in him and that's the part of his identity. Mongols are different.

[Bosniensis]

Point is that you can't say something like Turks = Mongols, something like that doesn't exist in the science. Those are 2 different ethnic groups with difference languages (of same origin, but still very different) and with different way of history.

The only Empire that could stop Roman Empire from reclaiming Anatolia is Mongol Empire or Empires that emerged from a collapse of Mongol Empire.

Those stories about Uzbek Turks are fairytales.

Roman Empire was 20 times stronger than people who lived in Uzbekistan... what Uzbek Turks?.. they were nothing.

Even if they did the major part of conquest of Anatolia they were supported by Gengishid people and other Turks.

I've just checked battle of Manzikert and Cumans helped Pechengs so I was right.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

The only Empire that could stop Roman Empire from reclaiming Anatolia is Mongol Empire or Empires that emerged from a collapse of Mongol Empire.

Those stories about Uzbek Turks are fairytales.

Roman Empire was 20 times stronger than people who lived in Uzbekistan... what Uzbek Turks?.. they were nothing.

Even if they did the major part of conquest of Anatolia they were supported by Gengishid people and other Turks.

Oghuz Turks were horde nomads, very numerous. So i don't see the reason why they shouldn't take Byzantine territories.

Germanic people destroyed West Roman Empire... so what? Was some strong Empire helped them?

[Bosniensis]

Oghuz Turks were horde nomads, very numerous. So i don't see the reason why they shouldn't take Byzantine territories.

Germanic people destroyed West Roman Empire... so what? Was some strong Empire helped them?

Germans were attacking Western Roman Empire for 700 years non-stop War, and yes they succeeded in 480 when Clovis I the Frank crossed river Rhine in Gaul.

Oghuz Turks, Gokturks, Cumans, Pechengs... it's all the same.. Turkic

How could Greek historians know which Turks attacked them, they had no idea! But they knew that all Turks were protected by other Turks.

Franks, Saxons, Lombards, Goths... it's all the same... Germanic...

Eastern Empire got defeated by Turks
Western Empire got defeated by Germanics.


But Ottoman Empire was also Roman Empire created by those Turkified Greeks (natives were accepted by Turks as long as they convert to their religion)

Vikings and Germanic people .... used to slaughter entire cities, they refused to live with natives (no conversion) so for example Holy Roman Empire was Germanic.

I am saying.. Roman Empire survived in East, but died in the West.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Germans were attacking Western Roman Empire for 700 years non-stop War, and yes they succeeded in 480 when Clovis I the Frank crossed river Rhine in Gaul.

Oghuz Turks, Gokturks, Cumans, Pechengs... it's all the same.. Turkic

Franks, Saxons, Lombards, Goths... it's all the same... Germanic...

Eastern Empire got defeated by Turks
Western Empire got defeated by Germanics.


But Ottoman Empire was also Roman Empire created by those Turkified Greeks (natives were accepted by Turks as long as they convert to their religion)

Vikings and Germanic people .... used to slaughter entire cities, they refused to live with natives (no conversion) so for example Holy Roman Empire was Germanic.

I am saying.. Roman Empire survived in East, but died in the West.

Yes, so we finally got point. Oghuz Turks destroyed Byzantine Empire without any Mongol help.

[Bosniensis]

Yes, so we finally got point. Oghuz Turks destroyed Byzantine Empire without any Mongol help.

Do you know what is Mongol Help?

Mongol Help is when Genghis Khan send a letter to Cuman, Pechengs and other Turks to help Oghuzes..

that's mongol help... he doesn't have to attack personally with his Army.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Do you know what is Mongol Help?

Mongol Help is when Genghis Khan send a letter to Cuman, Pechengs and other Turks to help Oghuzes..

that's mongol help... he doesn't have to attack personally with his Army.

Man... It's non of his buisness.. :) And there is no evidence about it at all.

[Bosniensis]

Man... It's non of his buisness.. :) And there is no evidence about it at all.

Don't be funny.. he is the only reason why Turks conquered Anatolia!

After Battle of Manzikert 1071, Turks entered Anatolia with 30.000 soldiers.

Greek historians said: After the Breach Turkish Hordes were coming from everywhere, from all parts of Turkic Empires.

That's a well known fact.

Romans fought Turkic Civilization not one group of Turkic people.

and how can you say that "It wasn't his bussines" when Genghis Khan and other "Khan of Khans" were recognized as Supreme Rulers of all Turkic peoples?

Word of Kubilai Khan or Genghis Khan was of the most importance for any Turk on any part of Earth.

Greeks COULD reclaim anatolia... that's truth, but they did not want to... they were Afraid that Turks will send even larger army to Anatolia and Balkans.

and between 12th and 13th century, Turks had hundreds of thousands mounted soldiers from Altai mountains all the way up to Istambul and Minsk.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

from all parts of Turkic Empires.

Yes, Turkic empires. No Mongols. Simply they unite and attacked it. I don't see anything weird in that.

[Bosniensis]

Yes, Turkic empires. No Mongols. Simply they unite and attacked it. I don't see anything weird in that.

Mongols were the ruling caste of all Turkic peoples.

Elite citizens, Most Ruthless, Fearless and dedicated Turkic warriors were Mongols, all other Turks feared them.

Just like Vikings are for Germanic people, Mongols are for Turks.

All Khan of Khans were mostly Mongols and they ruled over ALL TURKS.

[CommonSense]

The Western civilization had nothing to do with the ancient Greeks. The Western civilization is 90% German barbarian culture with 10% Late Roman culture (Christianity) without any Greek thing. I know about the contemporary Greek hallucinations about their ancient relatives' role, hovewer, the ancient Greek culture lived on in the Byzantine and the Arab culture and not in the Western. Even the late Roman world was almost clear from the Hellenism!

It's the other way around. The barbarians tribes adopted the Roman relgion, culture and way of life, although some customs were preserved. And the Roman culture was heavily influced by Greek, just like the rest of the Mediterranean, even before they carved out their empire. Let's not forget how the Greek and Roman authors after resurfacing during the Reneissance influenced the history of human thought which enabled civilization to progress to the stage it has.

[Crn Volk]

Some of them are, but not as much as some people claim.
The Serbian empire never had as big impact as the Bulgarian and the Byzantine empire had.
That is most visible by genetics, as the Serbs are plotting much northern than us, close to Moldova and Croatia.
And also by culture.
Many people are not aware but Serbs are known by celebrating "Slava".
That is some sort of tradition, I am not sure if it is heretical, that we Macedonians don't have it.
We celebrate a name-day!


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Actually, we do celebrate Selska Slava and Imenden. Some also celebrate Kujkna Slava ie, family saint days.

[Vožd]

Serbian population territorially expanded by Ottoman conquests. Until all other ethnic groups shrinked. It shows everything.

No they are just replaced from Kosovo, south Serbia, Macedonia etc. to west and north.
Serbs lose majority in southern regions after they are expeled.

[Vožd]

Nobody forced you, not in that sense. Were your ancestors who decided to be the vassals of the Ottomans. Apart Orthodox Albanians and some isolated cases, the rest of the Orthodoxy joined Ottomans against the Catholics. The enemy for the servian lords were not the muslim Ottomans but the catholic Hungarians. And Ottomans appreciated this your decision. When they left Balkans after roughly 500 years, Belgrade once an southern Hungarian city became the capital of servia. This is history.

No, they join Austrian army against Ottomans.

[Crn Volk]

I don't know where are your origins from but in and around Gevgelija and in Aegean part of Macedonia people never had that tradition.
And as far as I am aware of, many people in our country very recently started celebrating "Slava" as part of "serbization" of our country along with Serbian music.
When I say recently I mean in the last hundred years after the Ottoman liberation.

Sent from my Iron-bone DG750 using Tapatalk

I'm from Bitola region and we celebrate Slava for generations. Even in the diaspora, we celebrate Slava - although it is waning a bit with younger generations.

I'm surprised to hear you don't.

http://makedonija.name/religion/macedonian-religious-gatherings

http://cquintosmacedonia.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/slava.html

[Crn Volk]

--

[Vožd]

Baseless modern urban legend between the Serbs. They were the Ottomans himself between the 15-17th century. They accepted the situation and they were successful in the Ottoman world, since this was the only world for them. It's understandable.
Actually Ottoman empire is accepted by islamized people mostly (they lived in cities, unlike Christian rebel Serbs lived on isolated regions and villages)


Only the Serbs and the Bosniaks were Rác.
There was no Bosniaks in Pannonian regions. Its term for south Slavs in Pannonian regions, including Bunjevci and Croats which was sometime presented as "Catholic Racians", there was also "Rascia" term for south Slavic regions which included today Voivodine, and Slavonia.
Rascia in Slavonia
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Sclavonia_Croatia_Bosnia_Dalmatia_1609.jpg)


Yes, it's a borderland for the Oriental world as the Caucasus or Afghanistan, but the foreign influence (Western and Eastern European) are only influence on the Balkan and not basic part of the local culture.
Caucasus and Afghanistan dont belong to same culture, also Caucasus is very mixed like Balkan.

Base culture in Balkan is Roman, Balkan was part of Roman states even before disolution of empire on two sides.
Base culture of Serbs for example is mixature of Byzantine and Slavic, with strong western influence (romanesque architecture, knighty, kingdom policy, trade etc.)


Basically a behavior. The typical Oriental unreliability, extreme cruelty, religious/ideological fanatism, etc. The typical cultural trait of the oriental world.
With exeption of Yugoslav war (which include Croats too), where you seen example of cruelty?



The foundations of the civlization are older than the exisiting civilization. A civilization is a continuation of the predecessor civlization. The middle Danube-valley/Balkan region was the main borderland between the European and the Near-Eastern civilization since the recoil of the Körös culture. Presumably because environmental and geographical reasons. Sometimes the Balkan was part of Europe, sometimes not. The ancient Greeks were borderland between the Oriens and the European barbarian world, while the medieval Greeks not, since this border was shifted to the north, to the Danube and stabilized there for the new epoch.
You want say Vinča culture for example is oriental?


Two culture? Same culture! The Byzanto-Ottoman words is the same thing. The Ottomans were the natura continuation of the Byzantines in almost every thing.
Wrong. Ottomans had strong Persian and Arabic influence, and also local Turkic.



1848-49 or 1944-45 in the Hungarian Southland (you called Voivodina) was the last evidences for the Serbian extreme cruelty. Basically the Serbians are not part of the human race in the Hungarian narrative, bus some disgusting animals only. Sorry, but we have some observations about the Serbian mongrels.

Is Novi Sad raid cruelty prove that Hungarians are also oriental Balkanites?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Sad_raid

[Vožd]

I am surprised that you in Bitola are celebrating it.
I thought only in the northern most parts of the country people have those customs.
Anyway in Gevgelija we have a saint patron and on that day we celebrate but we don't call it "selska slava".
I assume you was talking about that.
However that's still different than "srpska slava".
As I said, we don't celebrate that, but a name-day.

Sent from my Iron-bone DG750 using Tapatalk

There is two kind of slava:
1. "Krsna" - family
2. "Seoska" - common for all village or smaller town

[Crn Volk]

There is two kind of slava:
1. "Krsna" - family
2. "Seoska" - common for all village or smaller town

Yes we call 1. Kujkna 2. Selska

[Crn Volk]

I am surprised that you in Bitola are celebrating it.
I thought only in the northern most parts of the country people have those customs.
Anyway in Gevgelija we have a saint patron and on that day we celebrate but we don't call it "selska slava".
I assume you was talking about that.
However that's still different than "srpska slava".
As I said, we don't celebrate that, but a name-day.

Sent from my Iron-bone DG750 using Tapatalk

What do you call it then? Name days are different. We celebrate them also.

[Crn Volk]

Zdravo druze Makedonec.
Vo Gevgelija kako praznik na gradot nie go slavime Sv.Spas.
Na angliski nz kako da to objasnum no nie toj den go vikame "gradski panagjur" ili praznik na gradot!
Pozdrav

Dobro, nije selanite od Bitolsko ja vikame selska slava. Nasata selska slava e Todorovden. A kujknata slava ni je Arangjel. Drugi sela okolu nas si slavat drugi svetsi. Znam i vo Prilepsko, Veleshko i drugi mesta niz Makedonija isto taka go vikat. Ajde Podrav

[Laberia]

No, they join Austrian army against Ottomans.

Lol, go read my answer to rv12anal. There you can find an old answer addressed exactly to you.

[Laberia]

No they are just replaced from Kosovo, south Serbia, Macedonia etc. to west and north.
Serbs lose majority in southern regions after they are expeled.

Why don't you start a thread and start to explain how servs were expelled from the southern regions? Until you decide to elaborate this your theory, we have to believe one of your scholars, J. Tomic quoted from his book:
Les Albanais en Vieille-Serbie et dans le Sandjak de Novi-bazar, Paris, Hachette, 1913. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?219174-Are-Albanians-Illyrian-or-Not&p=4610973&highlight=Tomic#post4610973)

[Bosniensis]

Dobro, nije selanite od Bitolsko ja vikame selska slava. Nasata selska slava e Todorovden. A kujknata slava ni je Arangjel. Drugi sela okolu nas si slavat drugi svetsi. Znam i vo Prilepsko, Veleshko i drugi mesta niz Makedonija isto taka go vikat. Ajde Podrav

It's interesting to read Macedonian, it's just like distorted Serbian but still I can understand everything xD

[CommonSense]

Why don't you start a thread and start to explain how servs were expelled from the southern regions? Until you decide to elaborate this your theory, we have to believe one of your scholars, J. Tomic quoted from his book:
Les Albanais en Vieille-Serbie et dans le Sandjak de Novi-bazar, Paris, Hachette, 1913. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?219174-Are-Albanians-Illyrian-or-Not&p=4610973&highlight=Tomic#post4610973)

First of all, many people from those territories were taken as slaves or killed after the Ottoman conquest of those regions. A significant amount fled to Hungary to the territory of present day Vojvodina, Romanian part of Banat and even further north into Hungarian lands. Some took a different route and feld towards the Adriatic, many of them trying to cross to Italy. In 1690 the demographics were changed once more when scores of Serbian families were forced to flee to Habsburg territory.

Albanians settled into the empty lands the Serbian people abandoned and thus the Serbs went from being an overwhelming majority to being a minority. It doesn't get more simple than this and you know it. You only pretend not to because you want to provoke people into a heated argument.

[Vožd]

First of all, many people from those territories were taken as slaves or killed after the Ottoman conquest of those regions. A significant amount fled to Hungary to the territory of present day Vojvodina, Romanian part of Banat and even further north into Hungarian lands. Some took a different route and feld towards the Adriatic, many of them trying to cross to Italy. In 1690 the demographics were changed once more when scores of Serbian families were forced to flee to Habsburg territory.

Albanians settled into the empty lands the Serbian people abandoned and thus the Serbs went from being an overwhelming majority to being a minority. It doesn't get more simple than this and you know it. You only pretend not to because you want to provoke people into a heated argument.

True. Dečani chrysobulls from 14th century proves who is majority in southern regions. Albanians was minority even in today north Albania.
Later Turkish census confirm this.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Greece and Hungary are not regarded as "Balkan" in almost any sense but whatever...

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Greece and Hungary are not regarded as "Balkan" in almost any sense but whatever...

https://www.wiltonpark.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Western-Balkans.jpg

This is what most people think of when Balkan nations are mentioned, though I admit the possibility of including Slovenia.

Romania and Bulgaria (and especially Moldova) are borderline Balkan. In Portugal we regard them merely as Eastern Europeans and don't really associate them with the Balkans.

Hungary is regarded as Eastern Europe too and Greece is just Greece (has its own spectrum).

[Vožd]

Greece and Hungary are not regarded as "Balkan" in almost any sense but whatever...

The only sense which Balkan can be regraded are geographic, and Greece are inside mostly (without isles).

[Vožd]

https://www.wiltonpark.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Western-Balkans.jpg
This is so called "Western Balkan", before Croatia join in EU 2013.

[CommonSense]

https://www.wiltonpark.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Western-Balkans.jpg

This is what most people think of when Balkan nations are mentioned, though I admit the possibility of including Slovenia.

Romania and Bulgaria (and especially Moldova) are borderline Balkan. In Portugal we regard them merely as Eastern Europeans and don't really associate them with the Balkans.

Hungary is regarded as Eastern Europe too and Greece is just Greece (has its own spectrum).

Agree with everything you said, but you can't exclude Bulgaria from the Balkans. For fucks sake, the very mountian range the peninsula got its name from is located almost entirely in that country. Not to mention the cultural and linguistic similarities...

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Agree with everything you said, but you can't exclude Bulgaria from the Balkans. For fucks sake, the very mountian range the peninsula got its name from is located almost entirely in that country. Not to mention the cultural and linguistic similarities...

I am just speaking from a Portuguese perspective. Our news broadcasts per example do not associate Bulgaria with the Balkans for some reason. Average person in Portugal associates people from the Balkans to the ethnic groups that were involved in ex-Yugoslavia and the Balkan War, Albanians included.

[CommonSense]

I am just speaking from a Portuguese perspective. Our news broadcasts per example do not associate Bulgaria with the Balkans for some reason. Average person in Portugal associates people from the Balkans to the ethnic groups that were involved in ex-Yugoslavia and the Balkan War, Albanians included.

That's probably because they had never even heard of the term Balkans before then. It's not like our people have any historic ties. I'm sure we have certain misconceptions about Iberia too.

[Vožd]

Agree with everything you said, but you can't exclude Bulgaria from the Balkans. For fucks sake, the very mountian range the peninsula got its name from is located almost entirely in that country. Not to mention the cultural and linguistic similarities...

What is cultural and especially linguistic similarities between Bulgaria and Albania?
Balkan mountiain (Stara Planina) is not dominant in region, its Dinaric Alps.

BTW This is Balkan (geographic term):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Balkanpeninsula.png

This is Southeast Europe (geographic-politic term):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Map_of_Southeast_Europe.PNG

[Sebastianus Rex]

https://www.wiltonpark.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Western-Balkans.jpg

This is what most people think of when Balkan nations are mentioned, though I admit the possibility of including Slovenia.

Romania and Bulgaria (and especially Moldova) are borderline Balkan. In Portugal we regard them merely as Eastern Europeans and don't really associate them with the Balkans.

Hungary is regarded as Eastern Europe too and Greece is just Greece (has its own spectrum).

I view Bulgaria and most of Romania as Balkan also.

Greece as a southern-european/Mediterranean nation and Hungary as historically a central power - the Austrian-Hungarian Empire (only during the Eastern Bloc period Hungary was included in the "eastern sphere" but that was only during 45 years or so).

[CommonSense]

What is cultural and especially linguistic similarities between Bulgaria and Albania?
Balkan mountiain (Stara Planina) is not dominant in region, its Dinaric Alps.

BTW This is Balkan (geographic term):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Balkanpeninsula.png

This is Southeast Europe (geographic-politic term):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Map_of_Southeast_Europe.PNG

It's not dominant in the Balkans but it is in Bulgaria. And the entire peninsula/the region itself was named after that mountain range, not the Dinarides.

[Stears]

Balkan is not geographic term

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That's probably because they had never even heard of the term Balkans before then. It's not like our people have any historic ties. I'm sure we have certain misconceptions about Iberia too.

Surely we have heard the term Balkan but we tend to associate it more with certain specific ethnic groups, rather than geographical spaces.

Sure, there are misconceptions about Iberians too. Portugal is not a Mediterranean nation per example, geographically our coast does not touch the Mediterranean sea yet everyone associates with Mediterraneans (which isn't incorrect as well because our culture is definitely Mediterranean).

[Stears]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Turkey_in_Europe_and_the_Balkans%2C_1910.jpg/640px-Turkey_in_Europe_and_the_Balkans%2C_1910.jpg

[Sebastianus Rex]

That's probably because they had never even heard of the term Balkans before then. It's not like our people have any historic ties. I'm sure we have certain misconceptions about Iberia too.

Well but that's one characteristic of the "Balkans" (from a foreign perspective), a lot of ethnic groups/tensions and historical rivalries. There's even the term "balkanize/balkanization" to mean division/fragmentation of a territory. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/balkanization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization

[Stears]

https://www.wiltonpark.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Western-Balkans.jpg

This is what most people think of when Balkan nations are mentioned, though I admit the possibility of including Slovenia.

Romania and Bulgaria (and especially Moldova) are borderline Balkan. In Portugal we regard them merely as Eastern Europeans and don't really associate them with the Balkans.

Hungary is regarded as Eastern Europe too and Greece is just Greece (has its own spectrum).

It just prove the ignorance of your latino folks.

[Vožd]

I view Bulgaria and most of Romania as Balkan also.

Greece as a southern-european/Mediterranean nation and Hungary as historically a central power - the Austrian-Hungarian Empire (only during the Eastern Bloc period Hungary was included in the "eastern sphere" but that was only during 50 years or so).

Greek mainland north and some other mainland regions are culturaly similar to Macedonia. Greek coast is culturaly similar to south Montenegro.
Serbian and Croatian north are culturaly closer to central Europe.
Also mainland Dalmatia, central Croatia, Herzegovina, parts of Bosnia, north Montenegro, west and central Serbia and norh-west Albania have dinaric culture (more or less) which is unique and different from other such as east Bulgaria for example or Moldova.

[CommonSense]

Surely we have heard the term Balkan but we tend to associate it more with certain specific ethnic groups, rather than geographical spaces.

Sure, there are misconceptions about Iberians too. Portugal is not a Mediterranean nation per example, geographically our coast does not touch the Mediterranean sea yet everyone associates with Mediterraneans (which isn't incorrect as well because our culture is definitely Mediterranean).

It became rooted in your collective consciousness during the conflicts in 90s. But not all the countries that are globally considered Balkan were involved in it. That's why you have a distorted view.

[Stears]

blah blah blah

''Northern Serbia'' = southern Hungarian lands under semi-asian orthodox occupation. You know it.

[Vožd]

Surely we have heard the term Balkan but we tend to associate it more with certain specific ethnic groups, rather than geographical spaces.

Sure, there are misconceptions about Iberians too. Portugal is not a Mediterranean nation per example, geographically our coast does not touch the Mediterranean sea yet everyone associates with Mediterraneans (which isn't incorrect as well because our culture is definitely Mediterranean).

In Iberia majority are Latin people, majority speak Roman languages, majority are Catholic, they are culturaly close (only Andalusia have some Arab influence, but still majority mediteranean). Even geneticaly are similar (R1b evrywhere). We cant say anything of this for Balkan.
Different languages, different origin, different religions, different history, different genetics, even phenotye are different.
Its culturaly complex region and very mixed.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Greek mainland north and some other mainland regions are culturaly similar to Macedonia. Greek coast is culturaly similar to south Montenegro.
Serbian and Croatian north are culturaly closer to central Europe.
Also mainland Dalmatia, central Croatia, Herzegovina, parts of Bosnia, north Montenegro, west and central Serbia and norh-west Albania have dinaric culture (more or less) which is unique and different from other such as east Bulgaria for example or Moldova.

I know it's dumb to use those simplistic labels to complex realities, but they exist nevertheless and are widely used by the media etc.

[Vožd]

''Northern Serbia'' = southern Hungarian lands under semi-asian orthodox occupation. You know it.

Well who occupied east Hungary (you claim this region very different from west)?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It just prove the ignorance of your latino folks.

No, Eastern Europe for the most part is a quite recent geopolitical term that became widespread during the Cold War and the Eastern Bloc (which Hungary was part of). People do not really care that you are mostly Roman Catholic or use the Latin alphabet. So does Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia per example yet they are seen as Easterners too.

[BosniakNationalist]

Where do you get this shit? You're pulling "information" out of your ass to portray Bosniaks as Russophiles, which makes no sense whatsoever. No Bosniak I know is pro-Eastern, and the vast majority view Croats in a favorable light, along with the rest of Western Europe. Cultural equivalence between Bosniaks and Serbs? Where are you from my dude? Montenegrin "Bosniaks" and Sandzos may be Serb-like, but as far as actual Bosniaks go you're way off.

[Stears]

Well who occupied east Hungary (you claim this region very different from west)?

Serbian Romanian Slovak migrants who learn Hungarian language. The region experienced most brutal mongol and ottoman massacres, so the people there are not real ethnic Hungarians (they have different material culture too).

[Stears]

No, Eastern Europe for the most part is a quite recent geopolitical term that became widespread during the Cold War and the Eastern Bloc (which Hungary was part of). People do not really care that you are mostly Roman Catholic or use the Latin alphabet. So does Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia per example yet they are seen as Easterners too.

I am Calvinist.

Don't forget, the Moors occupied Iberia for more than 500 years. Russians occupied central Europe for only 50 years. Are you north africans ? :))))

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In Iberia majority are Latin people, majority speak Roman languages, majority are Catholic, they are culturaly close (only Andalusia have some Arab influence, but still majority mediteranean). Even geneticaly are similar (R1b evrywhere). We cant say anything of this for Balkan.
Different languages, different origin, different religions, different history, different genetics, even phenotye are different.
Its culturaly complex region and very mixed.

You were right in almost everything you said apart from Andalusia, they are not culturally different. In fact they are probably some of the most stereotypical Spaniards in the eyes of foreigners (bullfights, flamenco, siestas, tapas, etc).

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I am Calvinist.

Don't forget, the Moors occupied Iberia for more than 500 yeras. Russians occupied central Europe for only 50 years. Are you north africans ? :))))

Our way of life is completely alien to North Africans. Yours is similar to other Easterners.

[Stears]

Our way of life is completely alien to North Africans. Yours is similar to other Easterners.

There is no relation. Eastern europeans are similar to me, similar like the gypos are. So 0.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

There is no relation. Eastern europeans are similar to me, similar like the gypos are. So 0.

You pass better in any Eastern European nation rather than France, Germany, Belgium or Netherlands per example.

[Stears]

You pass better in any Eastern European nation rather than France, Germany, Belgium or Netherlands per example.
Interestingly slavic people think I am English, in real life. :))))))

[Laberia]

First of all, many people from those territories were taken as slaves or killed after the Ottoman conquest of those regions. A significant amount fled to Hungary to the territory of present day Vojvodina, Romanian part of Banat and even further north into Hungarian lands. Some took a different route and feld towards the Adriatic, many of them trying to cross to Italy. In 1690 the demographics were changed once more when scores of Serbian families were forced to flee to Habsburg territory.

Albanians settled into the empty lands the Serbian people abandoned and thus the Serbs went from being an overwhelming majority to being a minority. It doesn't get more simple than this and you know it. You only pretend not to because you want to provoke people into a heated argument.

I don`t pretend and i don`t provoke in the bad sense of the word. Repeating the same nationalist mantra that have been taught to you in your schools, it`s not a big help for the discussion. You can not creat an entire myth based on the interpretation of one word, it`s ridiculous. Nobody from you here in this forum has really explained this topic.

This retreat of the southern and south-eastern population toward the north is known in Serbian history as the emigration of the Serbian people to Hungary under the Patriarch Arsenije Crnojevic. This event has lead in some instances to a few errors which for more than a century and a half, have been repeated from one book to another. One of those errors concerns the very regions that were hit by this emigration. If one opens at random any history book of the Serbian people one never fails to read everywhere as if it were a firmly established fact that during this emigration the Serbian regions of the Southwest - i.e., the regions of Prizren, Djakovo, Ipek - were the ones that suffered the most and remained vacant. This claim is incorrect and must be amended once and forever. Indeed, when presented in this manner the facts do not correspond to the reality. If this historical error has persisted for so long it is because the question has not been sufficiently studied. One has relied on notes and chronicles written by Orthodox priests and the 'void' mentioned in them has been identified with the ruin of the Serbian people; in reality, it refers to Orthodoxy."
Les Albanais en Vieille-Serbie et dans le Sandjak de Novi-bazar, Paris, Hachette, 1913. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?219174-Are-Albanians-Illyrian-or-Not&p=4610973&highlight=Tomic#post4610973)

[Vožd]

Serbian Romanian Slovak migrants who learn Hungarian language. The region experienced most brutal mongol and ottoman massacres, so the people there are not real ethnic Hungarians (they have different material culture too).

There was no special number of Serbian migrants in today Hungary. Szentendre has some significant number, but still small, not change anything.

This what you said is completly bullshits.
What is realy ethnic Hungarians? Ugro-finic tribe who come in Pannonia?
What genetic say about your Ugro-finnic origin? Is any connection to Finish and Estonians today?
Even Serbia have more N haplogroup than Hungary.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Interestingly slavic people think I am English, in real life. :))))))

That has a lot to do with the way you dress I would say. Walking everyday on a suit is not a standard where you live or in Eastern Europe.

Not saying though that you can't pass in Western Europe but I still think you would be more typical in Eastern. Your DNA results seem to support it since you are 11% Western European and 61% (Slavic) Eastern European.

[CommonSense]

I don`t pretend and i don`t provoke in the bad sense of the word. Repeating the same nationalist mantra that have been taught to you in your schools, it`s not a big help for the discussion. You can not creat an entire myth based on the interpretation of one word, it`s ridiculous. Nobody from you here in this forum has really explained this topic.

Les Albanais en Vieille-Serbie et dans le Sandjak de Novi-bazar, Paris, Hachette, 1913. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?219174-Are-Albanians-Illyrian-or-Not&p=4610973&highlight=Tomic#post4610973)

I already know all of that. I didn't even use the word migration. There never was any organized mass movement of people spearheaded by the patriarch as shown in that painting. But a lot of Serbs did leave their homeland back then, which doesn't imply that there weren't many who stayed. Still, it's just a piece of the puzzle in the demographic history of that area.

[Stears]

There was no special number of Serbian migrants in today Hungary. Szentendre has some significant number, but still small, not change anything.
Wrong. There were Serbians even in Budapest, and the Serbians were majority in the ottoman-occupied Hungary. Deal with it.


This what you said is completly bullshits.
What is realy ethnic Hungarians? Ugro-finic tribe who come in Pannonia?
Wrong.


What genetic say about your Ugro-finnic origin? Is any connection to Finish and Estonians today?
Even Serbia have more N haplogroup than Hungary.
Hungarian conquerors already had other haplogroups, like the R1b and I2, whent hey arrive to the Carpathian Basin. They were not exclusively N1c. YOu are ignorant in Hungarian ethnogenesis.

The N in Serbia is not finnougric type. Perhaps it is Turkish ? :)))

[RN97]

I view Bulgaria and most of Romania as Balkan also.

Greece as a southern-european/Mediterranean nation and Hungary as historically a central power - the Austrian-Hungarian Empire (only during the Eastern Bloc period Hungary was included in the "eastern sphere" but that was only during 45 years or so).

Yet again, the history of Europe seem to start somewhere around the 1000's and ends with WW2. There is nothing prior to that I guess? The only division of "east and west" before somewhere late in the 1800's was just religion. Very misleading as well because protestantism came later and the divide between protestants and catholics caused a lot more wars/ deaths and suffering than the divide between the so-called "protestant-catholic" western world (how can you even justify uniting those two sects???) and the eastern orthodox world. If that's the standard as well then Greece is most definitely eastern whilst Poland and the baltic countries + Estonia are western. So I can ask you this, at least. What makes Greece western? What defines the "eastern sphere"?

[Laberia]

True. Dečani chrysobulls from 14th century proves who is majority in southern regions. Albanians was minority even in today north Albania.
Later Turkish census confirm this.

You are not a serious person. Repeating like a parrot the same thing without explaining it, basically is trolling.I am still waiting that you explain your strange theory that Geg Albanians are not Albanians.
BTW, how do you explain the historical fact that before the Congres of Berlin Albanians were the majority of population in what is called today south servia, Nish, Toplica, etc? What the Ottoman defters says about this?
1937
Vaso Cubrilovic:
The Expulsion of the Albanians - Memorandum

There are also lessons to be learned from the colonization of Toplica and Kosanica after 1878 when the Albanians were expelled from this region. The method of colonization here was laid down in the law of 3 January 1880. On 3 February of the same year, the People's Council approved an amendment to the law on agrarian relations under the motto "land for the peasants." Without hesitation, Serbia applied for its first foreign loan in order to pay Turkey for the lands taken. It did not set up any ministry of agrarian reform or costly apparatus to deal with the problem of colonization. Everything was managed in a simple and practical manner. The police distributed land to all those who were willing to work it. People came from Montenegro, Sjenica, Vranje, Kosovo, Peja / Pec etc. and, in a matter of thirty years, Toplica and Kosanica, once Albanian regions of ill-repute, gave Serbia the finest regiment of the 1912-1918 wars, the Second Iron Regiment. During that period, Toplica and Kosanica paid and repaid, with the blood of their sons, for the millions of dinars which Serbia had spent to settle these regions.
Dr Vaso Cubrilovic
(signed)

Source:
[Taken from Iseljavanje Arnauta. Manuscript in the Institute of Military History of the Yugoslav People's Army (Vojno Istorijski Institut JNA). Archives of the former Yugoslav Army (Arhiv Bivše Jugoslovenske Vojske), Belgrade, 7 March 1937, No. 2, Fasc. 4, Box 69, 19 pp. Retranslated from the Serbo-Croatian by Robert Elsie, on the basis of an existing English version. First published in R. Elsie, Gathering Clouds: the Roots of Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo and Macedonia, Dukagjini Balkan Books (Peja 2002), p. 97-130.]

How do you explain all this? And i am not talking here about what we call today Kosova, but about south servia.

[Stears]

That has a lot to do with the way you dress I would say. Walking everyday on a suit is not a standard where you live or in Eastern Europe.

Not saying though that you can't pass in Western Europe but I still think you would be more typical in Eastern. Your DNA results seem to support it since you are 11% Western European and 61% (Slavic) Eastern European.

blablabla

I wear the suit only for work. And Hungary is included in ancestryDNA eastern european cathegory. It does not represent ''slavic'' genes (it is a linguistic group). Why are you so ignorant ?

[CabOOM]

I supposed that main reason of posting such ridiculous nonsense is the attempt to delude people who know absolutely nothing about the history of this part of Europe. Turkish rule spanned a period of several hundred years. The main Turkish collaborators were of course Islamized population, mostly Albanians.



The history of human settlements on the territory of present day Belgrade dates back to at least 7000 BC. There were many rulers. Fortress in the territory of present day Belgrade were under Hungarian rule at some point of medieval history. Modern city Belgrade has nothing to do with Hungarians and there is absolutely nothing Hungarian in it. When will you stop posting nonsense and lies, malicious snake.

It is Serbs who united with Ottomans against European interests. It is Serbs who benefited most from Ottoman conquest of Balkans by expanding their territory 3 fold, and their territorial ambitions 6 fold.

Serbian history is built on unverified fantasies of which Kosova and Montenegro are 2 examples.

Historically Serbs and Ottomans were never on the same side. Serbia was forced to be Turkish vassal before Ottomans conquered the whole country. The same as many other Christian vassals (Bulgaria, Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania and other vassals).
Vassal and tributary states of the Ottoman Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal_and_tributary_states_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
Serbs betrayed Albanians, Hungarians, and Romanians in their fight against the Ottomans. It is Serbian betrayal that precipitated further Ottoman conquest. Serbs were rewarded throughout the entirety of Ottoman occupation, while Albanians were persecuted for their resistance. Don't speak of things you don't know.

True. Dečani chrysobulls from 14th century proves who is majority in southern regions. Albanians was minority even in today north Albania.
Later Turkish census confirm this.

First, Serbs have to explain to us how Albanians spread all the way to Nish? 640 Albanian Villages in the Sinxhak of Nish, as well as the majority of the city of Nish itself. 2,000,000 Albanians in Turkey today descend from the ethnic cleansing that took place in Southern Serbia.

It is also amazing how when we have genetics, it is obvious Serbs were never in Kosova. It is the bullshit of Serbian propaganda to assume Kosova as the "cradle of their civilization." Serbs were never in Kosova.

They did this even with Montenegro by making them "Spartan Serbs". "The best of all Serbs." "Every Serb descends from Montenegro." Giving Montenegro this ridiculous importance to Serbdom. Reality is Montenegrins are not Serbs genetically or culturally. They are not even Slavic. Montenegro is Serbian expansionism.
The same thing they did with Montenegro they want to do with Kosova. "Cradle of our civilization" , "Where Serbian culture come from". You have nothing to do with Kosova except in your propaganda books. Looking at genetics, it is very obvious.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sq/0/0c/Sanxhaku_ne_kosove.JPG