R1a-M458-L1029* [Archive] - Page 2 - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Dibran

02-19-2018, 05:32 PM

Yh so it seems. Its interesting that my uncle’s E-V13 also seems to form its own clade within Z5018 or S7461 according to E-M35 project people whom advised me to order a BigY test for him, you also seem to form your own clade of L1029 and you too are from the Dibra region

I think you may be right. Perhaps the isolation preserved our basal clades within Diber Vogel. This could explain our basal clusters. In your maternal lines case, it could have been one of those Thracian Romans assimilated in Diber, whilst extended men of the line were absorbed by Macedonians and Bulgarians whom have further down stream mutations.

Per Trojet, since he is not very close to me, our cluster very likely has been "Albanian" for the last 1000-1600 years, and very likely in the same region also. This makes the connection to Vasil Lupu Koci even stronger. His father Nikol Koci was supposedly from around Gostivar maybe a bit further west. The line should probably be connected there, with the Korce/Berat Koci being the branch that stayed(they are still orthodox).

Given these estimates then likely the early waves of the tribes, like the Baiounitai or Berzites. If it became Albanian as early as 1600 years ago, then either the Ostrogoths, or a solitary Slavic migrant.

I was going to test bigY for my father. However, Trojet mentioned it won't really tell me anything other than having our cluster defined on yfull(which is tempting). He recommended I email YSEQ requesting they test my Gostivar match for all my novel SNPs. I imagine this will give us a more defined TMRCA or? Idk what more will be learned from testing my novels with him.

I will take his advice and once he sends me his email I will contact YSEQ.

The Illyrian Warrior

02-19-2018, 05:36 PM

Dibran

02-19-2018, 06:01 PM

Interesting, I also fall within Z5018 but I beyond that clade I dunno, maybe he can form own clade where I might belong to.

Its possible. If Trojet is correct with his classification, then it became Albanian as early as 1600 years, it could have been Ostrogothic since its a little before great migration, and or Antes Mercenaries used by Rome prior to the migration waves. Given the isolation of Diber, Kelmandasi could have a similar phenomenon occurring within his maternal V13 cluster. Next step is testing my novels for my Gostivar match. But since Nikol Koci(father of Vasil Lupu of Moldova) was born somewhere around Gostivar or maybe a bit further west, then I imagine it is one and the same. The Koci from Berat/Korce are likely a branch of the same line from Epirus. Mine may have went to Macedonia first and spilled over the border, with a branch of Nikola Koci.

Kelmendasi

02-19-2018, 06:02 PM

Interesting, I also fall within Z5018 but I beyond that clade I dunno, maybe he can form own clade where I might belong to.
Yh. As of now we can’t predict him as belonging to any exact clade as he seems to converge with a lot of them. Perhaps he belongs to a basal clade like S7461* or Z5018*

Dibran

02-21-2018, 04:00 AM

.......................

..............................*

So I am communicating with my match and he says originally he came from a small mountain village called Verbjan (Reka e Eperme),located between Mavrovo and Dibra e Madhe, Macedonia.

If I am not mistaken Verbjan is located in/on the westernmost part Diber Madhe no? Which would mean our line could have been in the area really long if we split between 1000-1600 years back and are still both within the general vicinity of Diber. This could mean my family may have been in Diber longer than we anticipated.

Dibran

02-21-2018, 06:33 PM

.....................

.................

So,

My match claims his family descend from clan Huca=Hysa, whom migrated to Vërbjan to a family named "Koca" roughly 400 years ago, but doesn't mention from where they migrated. I have no clue if these Koca are one and the same as our Koci, but I would think we are not connected since he is my match and they found the Koca when they migrated there?

To be fair, our split is estimated around 1000-1600 years ago. With that distance between us, the Koca, could just be a branch of our Koci or vice versa that migrated there earlier than my Gostivari match?

A google search seems to show that most surnames with Hysa are coming from Cameria, which would be supposedly where fis Koci of Vasil Lupu came from in the middle ages to Macedonia. Perhaps we are a branch of Vasil Koci family that went to Macedonia whilst Hysa clan came later? The plot thickens lol.

Dibran

02-21-2018, 08:46 PM

.....................

.................

He responded back with more details.

"According to stories of my father, Huca (hysa) lived in the Albanian region of Lumaj / Luma about 500 years ago.

As a teenager, Huca went to Verbjan (then called Gurri i zi village) and worked as a shepherd for Mr. Koca.

Unfortunately, Mr. Koca had only daughters and at the time not so beneficial.

Since Huca was a decent man, Mr. Koca married him to one of his daughters, and Hysa became Koca's son-in-law.
Thus, Huca remains in the village of Verbjan, and continues to multiply.
-> only God knows best

The village Verbjan is distributed in 5 regions, the region where Huca lived is called Nomlik (Loma e Likut *) as there are 4 old clans, Kocollaret, Krossollaet, Majlollaret, Hucollaret.

To the Kocollaret / Koca which are widespread, as you say, Diber, Shkup but also in Turkey a few Kocollar emigrated, in the fifties.

The koca known by my father was a man named Njazi, he was eaten by the wolves in the forest a few years ago, Njazi has a son named Qamil who should be in his fifties, Qamil seems to have children living in Italy, unfortunately I do not know any Kocollar / Koca personally.

Liku who was he?
The names Huca ose Koca may also have been reversed over time?"

These names all are eerily familiar. There are Lika in Diber where our clan deals with. If the Koca are the same as Koci, and we are 2 branches, then perhaps this Hysa clan is another(more distant branch) that by chance migrated to the area of distant common kin?

I suppose when I test his novels I willl know. But all the Koca he mentions(other than Verbjan) and the areas they dwell, are in fact the Koci of my line as they occupy those areas all.

Dick

02-21-2018, 08:47 PM

Per Trojet, we are matching 30/37 with a couple of differences being on slower mutating markers. And considering TMRCA of L1029 at ~2000 ybp, this distance between us corresponds to roughly 1000-1600 ybp. Since he comes from the same geographical area, most likely our line has been in the region for a while (last 1000-1600 years).

congrats on your close match

Dibran

02-21-2018, 08:52 PM

congrats on your close match

Thanks, man. I am now in the process of trying to test him for my novel SNPs to bridge the gap and nail down a more specific TMRCA between us. if you read the above recent posts, I am learning alot about his origin/migration, and it seems it can't be coincidental the area they settled is right next to us, and has people they already found with our surname(or some variation rather). Perhaps its just another branch of our family. Since there was a founder effect in the line, they obviously fucked like rabbits lol

Dick

02-21-2018, 08:54 PM

they obviously fucked like rabbits lol

The good ole days ;)

Dibran

02-21-2018, 09:35 PM

The good ole days ;)

Hahaha. True. Not much else to do back then in the mountains other then Fuck, kill, or be killed lol.

Dibran

05-02-2018, 06:59 PM

Interesting updates to some data regarding L1029. This seems to be the most recent compiled date using info from FTDNA samples and some outside information. I refrained from posting the authors theoretical analysis of migration(despite it being well thought out). Rather wanted to list the straight facts and leave it open for discussion. His opinion was its origin being between the Elb and Oder, possibly being of Lusatian origin, and carried minimally by Ostrogoths, Lugii, Vandals, and later absorbed and carried with the Slavic migration.

M458 B-Western seems to include L1029*, YP263, YP444, and FGC72553*(parent of YP263).

Seems most diverse in Germany and Poland. This is the most detailed heatmap I have seen and it seems recent(3/18).

My founder effect seems to have occurred either upstream YP263, or downstream beside it from FGC72553.

You can see by the following heatmap where L1029 clades are most common.

Additionally, using the user Waldemars compiled data set for FGC72553 subcades, it is most diverse in Germany, Poland and Sweden(despite being minimal and mostly in Southern Sweden). My sample is at the top. You can assume an instance of 2(including my match).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RtqWyE3JCaNG6ns4PQjjwNVUL45yCJKNvkuEyoz-wrQ/edit#gid=2045018272

https://s9.postimg.cc/p89xeow73/m458westernb.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/hsanta61b/m456westernb1.jpg

Wrong

05-02-2018, 07:02 PM

Germanic/Gothic for sure. Could also be an isolated Indo-European man taking hold in the Southern Balkans since the Bronze Age.

Dibran

05-02-2018, 07:11 PM

Germanic/Gothic for sure. Could also be an isolated Indo-European man taking hold in the Southern Balkans since the Bronze Age.

It is definitely possible. Maybe even absorbed by a Norman and carried into Diber. I read somewhere Normans were defeated in Diber during the Venetian era. Or possibly a East German(I heard they occupied Diber in 900AD). I can't confirm the second one though. The Lusatian Iron age formed 12-1300BC. which is actually when L1029 formed. There could be a possibility it was part of thr Lusatian Iron Age and carried with a East Germanic group. Lusatians also cremated most of their dead, which could explain the lack of ADNA dating to that era.

Kelmandasi had a good theory of its possible arrival on the lower Danube during the Maccromani Wars with some such or other east Germanic group. Sure enough that lines up with the TMRCA of the clade(not the founder effect though).

PostOak1

05-04-2018, 11:28 AM

Dibran

05-04-2018, 01:07 PM

It’s good to see that Czechs have the highest frequency. That just proves my personal thoughts . I’m a Boehme that is L1029. My theory is that most L1029 in Germany are Germanized Slavs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thats a broad generalization off a percentage of population lol. L1029 formed 1400BC, around the time of the Lusatian Iron Age, if they were slavic it was Proto-Balto-Slavic, not Slavic. Its current place of origin is believed to be between the Elbe and the Oder.

M458 for example could possibly be Lusatian: Still no M458 in Pripyat Marshes....

https://s9.postimg.cc/oshnpadov/lus.png

Additionally, 40 percent of Czech R1a is of the Z280 variety, not L1029(though it still has significant levels too). Their M458 reachs 60 percent, Up to 30 percent of M458 in Czechs is of the Lechitic L260-YP256 variety. Additionally, Czech reach low levels of L1029 B-Western.

https://s9.postimg.cc/yi9mz4hkv/percentage.png

Czechs have more M458 A Eastern:

https://s9.postimg.cc/tjm4kzj1b/est.png

Highest percentage L1029 -B-Western are in Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Bulgaria:

https://s9.postimg.cc/4xvm2tqnz/l1029.png

However, the highest L1029 B-Western Diversity is in Germany and Poland. If Czechs were under-tested I would say it doesn't mean much, but clade diversity is usually a pinpoint of possible origin. Take Ukraine and Romania, they have some of the highest R1a diversity. The oldest M417 was found in Ukraine after all. Its a general rule of thumb, lack of diversity exists in countries with large populations descended from fewer men to due a lack of allele variety. If it was Slavic entirely, the great diversity within B-Western L1029 should be there.

So far, everything points to Germany and Poland. Even Southern Sweden which has insignificant amounts of R1a-L1029, has more L1029- B Western Diversity than do Czechs.

I tend to subscribe to Maciamos opinion of "Germano-Slavic". It is clear that L1029 was there before Germanic elite assimilated them. They could have been Baltic originally, and absorbed into the Slavic ethnos. Even the Slavic Wends still held the same name as Vandals prior, "Wanderer". Means the same thing.

To assume Poland was completely depopulated of pre-Slavic natives and East Germanics is hogwash. I imagined some were assimilated into the tribal network. Which would explain why this particular variety of L1029 is quite uncommon across the board.

Additionally, I belong to L1029*(TMRCA 2000-2300ypb), forming a founder effect somewhere beside YP263 or downstream FGC27553. I lack all the sub-clades associated with the migration waves. Still a likelihood it came with Slavic migrations to the Balkans, but far slimmer chance(at least at this point in time given the rarity of the clade). At this point given all the data, I hypothesize it arrived with the Goths intho the Balkans. Even in the Balkans L1029 B-Western is less common than B-Eastern. Even then all M458 only reaches highest levels in Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, and Greece. Even in the rest of the Southern Slavs, M458 is minimal(reaches 4 percent in Serbia for instance, most of which belongs to the L1029 B-Eastern variety{YP515/YP417}). Majority of R1a in Balkans is of the Z280 variety.

Given its minimal impact in the Balkans I am more inclined to believe it was a result of Goths, Pannonian Avars, or the rare off-chance of Volga Bulgars(L1029-B Eastern would be more probable in their case).

Peterski

05-04-2018, 01:16 PM

Germanic/Gothic for sure.

LOL. All the Goths so far turned out to be Non-R1a, I wrote about it in my article for Eupedia:

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_dna_project_poland.shtml

"(...) Preliminary results from scientists A. Juras, J. Piontek, M. Figlerowicz and M. Zenczak ("Y-chromosome haplogroup assignment through next generation sequencing of enriched aDNA librariers" and "Comprehensive analysis of microorganisms accompanying human archaeological remains") indicate that Y-DNA lineages such as I1a3a1a1a-L1237, I1a2a-Z59 (possibly I1a2a2a5-Y5384) and I2a2a1b2a-L801 might be related to East Germanic tribes. (...)"

It is almost certain that all major branches of R1a-M458 are Slavic, given their very young TMRCAs:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?240328-Slavic-identity-in-Slavic-speaking-countries/page4&p=5062865#post5062865

R1a-M458 - 4 subclades:

PF7521>Y2604>L260 (formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>YP515 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
A11460 (formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp)

^^^ Those subclades are about as old, as the Proto-Slavic ethnos itself.

It is estimated that Proto-Slavs split from Balto-Slavs ca. 4000/3500-2500 years ago:

"(...) There is a near consensus among linguists that the Baltic and Slavic languages stem from a common root, Proto-Balto-Slavic, which separated from other Indo-European languages around 4,500–7,000 years before present (YBP) [1–8] and whose origin is mapped to Central Europe [8]. The Balto-Slavic node was recognized already in the pioneer Indo-European[9]. The split between Baltic and Slavic branches has been dated to around 3,500–2,500 YBP [6–8]. (...)"

And first divisions within the Proto-Slavs could take place already before year 100 CE:

"(...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC. Proto Slavic splits into 3 major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YPB), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

Peterski

05-04-2018, 01:21 PM

According to Dibran, Poles are Germanic. Because R1a-M458 is our main haplogroup (2nd main is R1a-Z280). LOL.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 01:23 PM

LOL. All the Goths so far turned out to be Non-R1a, I wrote about it in my article for Eupedia:

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_dna_project_poland.shtml

"(...) Preliminary results from scientists A. Juras, J. Piontek, M. Figlerowicz and M. Zenczak ("Y-chromosome haplogroup assignment through next generation sequencing of enriched aDNA librariers" and "Comprehensive analysis of microorganisms accompanying human archaeological remains") indicate that Y-DNA lineages such as I1a3a1a1a-L1237, I1a2a-Z59 (possibly I1a2a2a5-Y5384) and I2a2a1b2a-L801 might be related to East Germanic tribes. (...)"

It is almost certain that all major branches of R1a-M458 are Slavic, given their very young TMRCAs:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?240328-Slavic-identity-in-Slavic-speaking-countries/page4&p=5062865#post5062865

R1a-M458 - 4 subclades:

PF7521>Y2604>L260 (formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>YP515 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
PF7521>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029 (formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp)
A11460 (formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp)

It is estimated that Proto-Slavs split from Balto-Slavs ca. 4000/3500-2500 years ago:

"(...) There is a near consensus among linguists that the Baltic and Slavic languages stem from a common root, Proto-Balto-Slavic, which separated from other Indo-European languages around 4,500–7,000 years before present (YBP) [1–8] and whose origin is mapped to Central Europe [8]. The Balto-Slavic node was recognized already in the pioneer Indo-European[9]. The split between Baltic and Slavic branches has been dated to around 3,500–2,500 YBP [6–8]. (...)"

And first divisions within the Proto-Slavs could take place already before year 100 CE:

"(...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC. Proto Slavic splits into 3 major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YPB), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

I guess you're a Celt then. Impossible that theres Slavic R1b!(sarcasm). People had more than one haplo you know. L1029 B-Western was likely Pre-Slavic Lusatians assimilated by both Germanic elite, and Slavic.

It has insignificant levels in the Balkans. It only reaches highest levels in Bulgarians of which only 40 percent or so is of B-Western Variety, the overwhelming majority being of B-Eastern Variety and YP515. B- Western makes up roughly 25 percent of Bulgarian R1a(assuming they still have roughly 40-50 percent Z280, unless that changed).

You guys are almost as bad as you claim Albanians are for trying to claim entire haplogroups at the root.

Wrong

05-04-2018, 01:24 PM

LOL. All the Goths so far turned out to be Non-R1a
You are wrong and idiotic with a clear agenda.

Main R1a in Germanics is purely non-Slav. There is only minor Slavic R1a clade % there:

https://i.imgur.com/EoaYHtI.png

Dibran

05-04-2018, 01:26 PM

According to Dibran, Poles are Germanic. Because R1a-M458 is our main haplogroup (2nd main is R1a-Z280). LOL.

Can you read?

I said L1029 B-Western is likely connected to possibly Goths and Vandals(not definitely but likely). L1029-B-Western only reaches 20-25 percent of M458 in Poland. Not entire M458. I also said theres a possibility of M458 being Lusatian, which were pre-germanic natives. For all we know they were Proto-Balto-Slavs(Corded contributed heavily to their ancestry). Context is everything. Stop with the broad generalizations.

TheMaestro

05-04-2018, 01:28 PM

Hi all,

So I finally received my full genomes file. I haven't been able to reach Michal. However, the admins at Albanian Bloodlines were able to look over my interpretation file. I am positive for L1029 but do not share any of the downstream SNPs on Yfull. So I am predicted to fall under L1029*. TMRCA seems to be 2000ybp, if I am reading correctly. I may or may not share a SNP with the German or Norwegian sample. I will have to wait until I receive my BAM file monday, to upload to Yfull to see exactly how it splits. I have 26 unique SNPs. Only one of which I share with 2 kits on FullGenomes. Idk their country of origin, but TMCA between us was 2,340 years(common ancestor approximately 340 BC).

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

https://s14.postimg.org/pspa1t4tt/L1029.jpg

Shame MyHeritage doesnt do those things, idk why i paid 100 dollars for this bullshit instead of 23andMe or smth..

Wrong

05-04-2018, 01:28 PM

Can you read?

I said L1029 B-Western is likely connected to possibly Goths and Vandals(not definitely but likely). L1029-B-Western only reaches 20-25 percent of M458. Not entire M458. I also said theres a possibility of M458 being Lusatian, which were pre-germanic natives. For all we know they were Proto-Balto-Slavs(Corded contributed heavily to their ancestry). Context is everything. Stop with the broad generalizations.
You're most likely Corded Ware or more recently, Goth/Germanic/Bastarnae descent.

You showed negative in the Slavic clades, Peterski will claim it as Slavic anyway...

These fucks are deluded, as long as it conflicts with their agenda they chimp out.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 01:39 PM

You're most likely Corded Ware or more recently, Goth/Germanic/Bastarnae descent.

You showed negative in the Slavic clades, Peterski will claim it as Slavic anyway...

These fucks are deluded, as long as it conflicts with their agenda they chimp out.

I am not denying the possibility it arrived with a Slavic speaker either. I just don't see how B-Western cluster can be Slavic when its less common. I do think it was possibly a Corded natives assimilated into Germanic and or Slavic movements. Could have been a dude working trade on the amber road that maybe took a job for the Romans. Any number of scenarios exist. Given I am negative for all associated clades downstream, my relation to other L1029(per michals dating) is to 300BC. Lol. Even if he moved 300 years later, its still earlier than the Slavic migration. Time will tell though. for all we know like 10000 Bulgarians with the line pop up tomorrow redefining it lol. But, as it stands its most common in Germans and Poles. The lineage has the most support for origin between the elbe and oder. No ADNA in pripyat(I2 popped up though I think lol). Even non Germanic R1a in Scandinavians and British Isles is part of L1029-B-Western. In their case I can't see it being anything other than a Saxon, a Viking, or a Slavic Pomeranian Viking(they had some colonies in Sweden). These asshats like to think haplogroups were less diverse then than they are now. Which is complete bullshit. I bet L1029 was an atypical lineage among Goths the same as R1a is atypical for Albanians today. God forbid it arrived with someone who didn't speak slavic. and even if it did? Whatevs lol.

Wrong

05-04-2018, 01:44 PM

I am not denying the possibility it arrived with a Slavic speaker either. I just don't see how B-Western cluster can be Slavic when its less common. I do think it was possibly a Corded natives assimilated into Germanic and or Slavic movements. Could have been a dude working trade on the amber road that maybe took a job for the Romans. Any number of scenarios exist. Given I am negative for all associated clades downstream, my relation to other L1029(per michals dating) is to 300BC. Lol. Even if he moved 300 years later, its still earlier than the Slavic migration. Time will tell though. for all we know like 10000 Bulgarians with the line pop up tomorrow redefining it lol. But, as it stands its most common in Germans and Poles. The lineage has the most support for origin between the elbe and oder. No ADNA in pripyat(I2 popped up though I think lol). Even non Germanic R1a in Scandinavians and British Isles is part of L1029-B-Western. In their case I can't see it being anything other than a Saxon, a Viking, or a Slavic Pomeranian Viking(they had some colonies in Sweden). These asshats like to think haplogroups were less diverse then than they are now. Which is complete bullshit. I bet L1029 was an atypical lineage among Goths the same as R1a is atypical for Albanians today. God forbid it arrived with someone who didn't speak slavic. and even if it did? Whatevs lol.
Indeed. Haplogroups were definitely more diverse since the Bronze Age and onwards, until the early modern era.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 01:48 PM

You are wrong and idiotic with a clear agenda.

Main R1a in Germanics is purely non-Slav. There is only minor Slavic R1a clade % there:

https://i.imgur.com/EoaYHtI.png

He forgets Eastern Germanics had more a elite Germanic substratum and cultural impact rather than an entire genetic one. Goths landed from Scandza(as is believed) into Northern Poland. Assimilating natives. Those natives likely carried L1029. The subclades defining whether it was carried with Slavs or Germanics. Currently based on the data it was likely a Corded/Proto-Balto-Slav that was assimilated into Gothic movements. If tomorrow new data changes showing B-Western to be more dominant in South Slavic L1029, then we can reassess the situation. As it stands it seems like it barely took a piss on the Balkans. lolol. Which makes sense cause Goths barely left much a mark in the Southern Balkans.

PostOak1

05-04-2018, 01:56 PM

Dibran

05-04-2018, 02:02 PM

I need to take the Big Y test or something similar to find out more about my Y chromosome. All I know is that it stops at L1029. The furthest back that I have traced my patrilineal line is to the Saxon side of the Bohemian border in 1640. I wanna find out when my ancestors were “Germanized”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Most L1029 in the British Isles is of L1029-B-Western. In their case the only explanation is Saxons, Pomeranian Vikings, and or a Viking whose ancestor was assimilated earlier. Sure enough most L1029 in British isles is YP444 or YP263. Given Saxons had a bigger impact you could be YP444. The line would surely have been atypical for them, but present in low amounts. You should do BigY or FullGenomes. Maybe we match at the root. Most of my SNP matches(granted its back to 300BC) are from Germany, Norway, Finland. The closest is an Italian. I am actually going to check now to see if theres any changes.

PostOak1

05-04-2018, 02:08 PM

Most L1029 in the British Isles is of L1029-B-Western. In their case the only explanation is Saxons, Pomeranian Vikings, and or a Viking whose ancestor was assimilated earlier. Sure enough most L1029 in British isles is YP444 or YP263. Given Saxons had a bigger impact you could be YP444. The line would surely have been atypical for them, but present in low amounts. You should do BigY or FullGenomes. Maybe we match at the root. Most of my SNP matches(granted its back to 300BC) are from Germany, Norway, Finland. The closest is an Italian. I am actually going to check now to see if theres any changes.

My patrilineal line which is L1029 did not leave what is now present day Germany until 1709

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Dibran

05-04-2018, 02:16 PM

............

......

Here are my closest SNP matches(albeit 2000-2300ypb). The one with no country listed is from Poland.

Most of my distant SNP matches are from Sweden, Poland, Finland, Russia, Denmark, Norway, Hungary, Belarus, Bulgaria, Estonia, Romania, England, Slovakia, and 10 unknown origin with no names listed(in that order). All TMRCA 2300ypb.

https://s9.postimg.cc/cn1n5uqfz/SNP_Matches.png

Only one close STR match from Beijing, China lmao. Ko nee chee wa lol. Hes a native Han. Probably a Germanic or Slav taken by the Huns along the silk road.

PostOak1

05-04-2018, 02:19 PM

Here are my closest SNP matches(albeit 2000-2300ypb). The one with no country listed is from Poland.

Most of my distand SNP matches are from Sweden, Poland, Finland, Russia, Denmark, Norway, Hungary, and Belarus(in that order). All TMRCA 2300ypb.

https://s9.postimg.cc/cn1n5uqfz/SNP_Matches.png

Only one close STR match from Beijin China lmao. Ko nee chee wa lol. Hes a native Han. Probably a Germanic or Slav taken by the Huns along the silk road.

Is this from Big Y or Full Genomes?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Dibran

05-04-2018, 02:20 PM

Indeed. Haplogroups were definitely more diverse since the Bronze Age and onwards, until the early modern era.

Is this from Big Y or Full Genomes?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This is from Yfull(which accepts BigY and Full Genomes). I tested FullGenomes though. They have a 3-installment payment plan. Worth it I say.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 04:36 PM

I guess you're a Celt then.

I guess so - https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?236390-Possible-sources-of-my-Celtic-Y-DNA

Well, your R1a-M458 is surely not "originally Albanian" as well, right?

Albanians are a branch of Indo-Europeans on their own, they are neither Slavic, Celtic, Germanic, nor Greek.

Do you think that your Y-DNA is Proto-Albanian, ancient Illyrian?

Peterski

05-04-2018, 04:51 PM

Main R1a in Germanics is purely non-Slav.

Nearly all of R1a in Germany is Slavic, and its distribution correlates well with historical western border of Slavic lands:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?230011-R1a-in-Germany-(regional-frequencies)&p=4843183&viewfull=1#post4843183

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

Compare with the map of European languages in 1100 AD (the map is from: Grover S. Krantz, Professor of Anthropology, "Geographical Development Of European Languages", American University Studies, Series XI, Anthropology and Sociology, Vol. 26):

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

In 800 AD the extent of Slavic languages was even larger than in 1100 AD, as it also included most of Austria in 800 AD:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4a/fe/f2/4afef23f5949d5fcc2ff8a40deb4049c--pol-genealogy.jpg

Peterski

05-04-2018, 04:55 PM

Compare frequencies of R1a among Western European nations and Germans, and how R1a is distributed in Germany:

Western Europeans:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang / sample size)

Flandern (heutzutage) ---------------------------- 4,3% (695)
Brabant (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,0% (große)
Wallonien (heutzutage) --------------------------- 4,0% (74)
England (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 4,0% (1830)
England (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,5% (>5000)
Irland (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 2,5% (>5000)
Wales (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 1,0% (411)

Balts and North Slavs:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Kaschuben (einheimische) ------------------------ 63,4% (268)
Kleinpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 63,2% (212)
Kurpie (einheimische) ----------------------------- 61,4% (158)
Kociewie (einheimische) -------------------------- 56,3% (158)
Großpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 54,8% (343)
Litauer (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 42,2% (301)
Letten (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 40,0% (große)

Germany (regional %):

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Sorben (einheimische) ---------------------------- 65,0% (123)
Oberschlesien (vor 1914) ------------------------- 63,0% (48)
Brandenburg an der Havel (vor 1914) ---------- 50,0% (14)
Niederschlesien (vor 1914) ----------------------- 48,0% (48)
Ostpreußen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 45,2% (84)
Graz, Österreich (heutzutage) -------------------- 42,9% (große)
Dessau–Roßlau (vor 1914) ------------------------ 42,9% (7)
Chemnitz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 40,0% (10)
Dresden (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 32,6% (große)
Rostock (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 32,4% (96)
Halle an der Saale (heutzutage)* --------------- 30,3% (234)
Leipzig (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 27,1% (144)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (vor 1914) ---------- 25,8% (31)
Berlin (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 23,7% (232)
Sachsen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 22,0% (41)
Bern (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 21,4% (???)
Magdeburg (heutzutage) ------------------------- 21,0% (100)
Greifswald (heutzutage) ------------------------- 19,2% (104)
Sachsen-Anhalt (vor 1914) ---------------------- 17,7% (34)
Kassel (vor 1914) --------------------------------- 17,7% (17)
Hamburg (heutzutage) -------------------------- 16,8% (161)
Oberpfalz (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 16,7% (6)
Nord Osttirol -------------------------------------- 16,0% (235)
Köln (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 15,6% (96)
Braunschweig (vor 1914) ----------------------- 14,3% (14)
München (heutzutage) ------------------------- 14,3% (112)
Thüringen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 13,2% (38)
Unterfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 11,5% (26)
Freiburg im Breisgau (vor 1914) ---------------- 10,8% (102)
Lüneburg (vor 1914) -----------------------------10,0% (20)
Schleswig-Holstein (vor 1914) ----------------- 10,0% (20)
Niedersachsen (vor 1914) ----------------------- 9,8% (82)
Lausanne (heutzutage) -------------------------- 9,4% (???)
Bayern (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,6% (93)
Hessen (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,5% (82)
Mainz (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 8,4% (95)
Weser-Ems (vor 1914) -------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Hannover (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Münster (heutzutage) -------------------------- 7,8% (102)
[Münster (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 9,1% (11)]
Rheinhessen-Pfalz (vor 1914) ------------------ 7,8% (64)
Gießen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 7,1% (14)
Karlsruhe (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 6,7% (60)
Düsseldorf (vor 1914) -------------------------- 6,7% (15)
Darmstadt (vor 1914) --------------------------- 5,9% (51)
Oberfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 5,9% (17)
Baden-Württemberg (vor 1914) -------------- 5,7% (176)
Tübingen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 5,3% (19)
Rheinland-Pfalz (vor 1914) -------------------- 5,2% (116)
Stuttgart (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 4,4% (68)
Mulheim (heutzutage) -------------------------- 3,4% (59)
Nordrhein-Westfalen (vor 1914) -------------- 2,8% (72)
Koblenz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 2,7% (37)
Oberbayern (vor 1914) ------------------------- 0,0% (20)
Arnsberg (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (17)
Saarland (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (16)
Trier (vor 1914) ---------------------------------- 0,0% (15)
Detmold (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (14)
Schwaben (vor 1914) --------------------------- 0,0% (11)
Mittelfranken (vor 1914) ----------------------- 0,0% (10)
Bremen (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 0,0% (5)

^^^ The map of R1a in Germany and Austria posted above is based on this data.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 05:02 PM

Most L1029 in the British Isles is of L1029-B-Western. In their case the only explanation is Saxons, Pomeranian Vikings, and or a Viking whose ancestor was assimilated earlier.

Polish mercenaries took part in Danish invasions of Britain - and that's the explanation. Even Saxo Grammaticus wrote about it.

Pomeranian Vikings

You mean Slavic Pirates from Pomerania or what?

Dibran

05-04-2018, 05:34 PM

I guess so - https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?236390-Possible-sources-of-my-Celtic-Y-DNA

Well, your R1a-M458 is surely not "originally Albanian" as well, right?

Albanians are a branch of Indo-Europeans on their own, they are neither Slavic, Celtic, Germanic, nor Greek.

Do you think that your Y-DNA is Proto-Albanian, ancient Illyrian?

Where did I ever say that? Do you like to spew accusations out of your ass absent any basis?

Definitely not Illyrian. It could have joined Proto-Albanian(slim chance)as that was present in the early middle ages. It is definitely Albanian. Doesn't matter whether a Goth or Slav brought it. I am part of a founder effect. Do you know what that is genius?

I guess if some L1029 was among the Goths and Vandal it wouldn't really conform to your ethno-nationalistic agenda. Additionally, please learn to fucking read. I said M458 was likely pre-germanic Lusatians, whom may have been Proto-Balto-Slavs anyways. East Germanics had more of an elite dominance and cultural assimilation than genetic impact. If I said West Germanic then you could get your panties in a bunch.

The point is, you can't claim all M458 or even Z280 in the Balkans only arrived with "Slavic Speakers". Because that would be bullshit. 1000 years from now, is a retard like you supposed to assume I spoke Slavic because of my YDNA?

You have to look at the clades/sub-clades. L1029* formed literally around the time period of the Lusatian Culture. My TMRCA with other L1029 broke off long before the migration. So again, context is everything. I don't belong to L1029 B-Eastern(most common L1029 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe). I practically belong to an older clade that is related to L1029 - B Western(so even then its a little older). No one but me and another Albanian share my clade.

TMRCA between 1600-1100ypb with me and my match. My TMRCA with other L1029s is 2000-2300ypb. It is either beside FGC27553 or downstream of it. Wan't to argue that? pick it up with R1a admins.

So far no one has our clade. The most diversity for the clades downstream my own are in Germany and Poland, and despite its practical non existence in Sweden, it still has more diversity in Sweden than any other East European countries.

Most data suggests it was originated between the Elbe and Oder. Whether Baltic, Proto-Balto-Slav, or carried minimally by Goths, it was still there before the middle ages Slavs moved inward. Where are the ADNA in pripyat marshes(for my cluster). Hell, Where is ANY pre middle ages(iron age) ADNA showing it was Proto-Slavic/Slavic only?

You don't have it?

You know theres Slavic branches of E-V13? Did Albanians call alll V13 Slavs Albanians now? If they belong to Albanian founder effects than yes, if not no. You keep mentioning distributions of M458. Yet, I am referring to a very specifically defined rare cluster within one sublcade of M458, within clade L1029, that has relatively little to no diversity outside Germany and Poland.

Do you know what haplogroup diversity indicates? it indicates possible origin point. Any wonder why the most R1a Diversity is in Ukraine and Romania?(oldest M417 discovered in Alexandria Ukraine).

Peterski

05-04-2018, 05:38 PM

It is obvious that you push the Gothic/Germanic Agenda for your Y-DNA subclade because you are a Slavophobe.

Where are the ADNA in pripyat marshes(for my cluster).

There won't be any, because there were no people in Pripyat Marshes in ancient times - it was uninhabited area.

Everyone familiar with modern archaeology knows this. Only Neo-Nazi Slavophobes like you apparently don't.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 05:41 PM

It is obvious that you push the Gothic/Germanic Agenda for your Y-DNA subclade because you are a Slavophobe.

Do you know how to read? because you replied within seconds of my post. You obviously didn't read jack shit. You know how I know this? Because you keep putting words in my mouth that I never said. Maybe you can't grasp things within certain contexts. That's not my problem.

Lavrentis

05-04-2018, 05:42 PM

It is obvious that you push the Gothic/Germanic Agenda for your Y-DNA subclade because you are a Slavophobe.

There were no people in Pripyat Marshes in ancient times - it was an uninhabited territory.

Everyone familiar with modern archaeology knows this. But Neo-Nazis like you don't.

But what if what he says is true? What if his Y-DNA subclade has actual Gothic/Germanic origins?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dibran

05-04-2018, 05:52 PM

But what if what he says is true? What if his Y-DNA subclade has actual Gothic/Germanic origins?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't even deny the possibility of it being Slavic either. You can tell by his responses and my own that hes not even reading anything. I literally said that L1029 per most data is believed to originate between Elbe and Oder. The most Diversity for the cluster downstream my own is in Germany(even though it reaches insignificant levels), and Poland. Even Sweden which has practically no L1029 has more diversity(L1029 B-Western)than eastern european clusters. I also said they were probably pre-germanic lusatians who are believed to be proto-balto-slavs that were assimilated by Goths. I even tried to explain to this tool that East Germanics had more an elite dominance and cultural impact than a genetic one. There is no denying the difference between West and East Germanics. I even went as far as to say that it was most probably a minor atypical lineage carried by the Gothic migrations.

literally majority of all Slavic including South Slavic R1a is Z280. M458 has a hotspot in central Europe. Yet, I am only speaking of one specific cluster within a clade of M458. He keeps throwing he broad generalizations. M458 reaches 4 percent in Serbia for instance, and most of it falls in L1029 B-Eastern and YP515. Even in Greece, M458 is mostly of the L1029-B-Western variety which only reaches 20 percent of Bulgarian M458. If B-Western cluster is an atypical Goth lineage, it would even make the supposed Slavic impact in Greece a little lower. God forbid.

We are supposed to believe a small tribal unit is responsible for every subclade in all of Europe. They used to claim Z284 was Slavic until the evidence piled against that assumption.

W

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:03 PM

But what if what he says is true? What if his Y-DNA subclade has actual Gothic/Germanic origins?

Not really. His claim that R1a in Germny is Gothic doesn't make sense because there are no descendants of Goths in present-day Germany.

Before the Migration Period, Goths lived in Poland and Ukraine. Later they migrated to the Balkans, Italy, Iberia and Africa. Not to Germany.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:03 PM

You obviously didn't read jack shit.

I did not read all of it because every second word was a personal insult against me - and that's just for suggesting that your Y-DNA can be Slavic.

Get some medications for your anger.

But what if what he says is true?

Why would modern Germans carry Gothic Y-DNA if Goths never lived in Germany? Slavs, on the other hand, did live in Germany in the Middle Ages.

As for Goths - Goths came to the Roman Empire crossing the border between the Black Sea and the Carpathian Mountains, not across the Rhine.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:15 PM

It is obvious that you push the Gothic/Germanic Agenda for your Y-DNA subclade because you are a Slavophobe.

There won't be any, because there were no people in Pripyat Marshes in ancient times - it was uninhabited area.

Everyone familiar with modern archaeology knows this. Only Neo-Nazi Slavophobes like you apparently don't.

Doesn't matter. Wheres the ADNA in general then? Why does M458* basal reach high levels(20-25 percent) in Northern and Southern Kavkazians? and Some Turkic tribes? When some of their clades are older than the slavic presense?

Where is the Iron Age ADNA of M458 or supporting subclades proving its Slavic?

The thing is we have a shit ton of Adna Iron age to middle ages for Z280. Wheres the M458?

Why is L1029 B-Western most diverse in Germans when they have low levels of R1a?

Why is L1029-B-Eastern the most Common L1029 cluster in Eastern, Western and Southern Slavs?

The Bulgarians have the most M458 from the Balkans. It makes up roughly 60 percent of total R1a for them. Bulgarians have only 18-20 percent R1a. Of M458, only 40 percent falls within L1029-B-Western. Thats only 20 percent or so of their total R1a.

Why does it reach such low levels among Slavs and high levels amongst the already insignificant R1a percentage in Germany? Why so much diversity in Germany and Poland?

You can't answer any of this without ADNA. Neither can I. Yet, given all the recent data for this defined cluster in L1029, all the data suggests it was atypically carried by some East Germanics. Maybe even Pannonian Avars.

For a part of europe that got raped by the turkic tribes, theres relatively little to no z93. Also you yourself posted Pannonian Avars whom came out Polish looking admixture wise.

You like to tightly wrap up whole haplogroups and assign them to ethno-linguistic borders, despite the absence of nationalism and ethnic consciousness at those times.

Given europes varying tribal integrations, and turbulent migrations, I am willing to bet it was among the Goths in atypical amounts, as much as R1a is atypical in modern Albanians.

Slav or not, my clade is a founder effect, only among Albanians thus far. You can't do shit about that reality.

Additionally I don't like most Serbs. I have nothing against Slavs. For instance, I have a great respect for the courage and determination of the Bielski brothers of Belarus, who bitch slapped Germans.

I admire true respect, determination and courage. What I don;t admire is any ethnicity thinking they have a claim to haplogroups.

If you want to get technical Our ancestors(R1a/R1b) were R1 Siberians hunting Mammoths. Depends which time period you look at and the age of the branch. Context, context, context.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:16 PM

Not really. His claim that R1a in Germny is Gothic doesn't make sense because there are no descendants of Goths in present-day Germany.

Before the Migration Period, Goths lived in Poland and Ukraine. Later they migrated to the Balkans, Italy, Iberia and Africa. Not to Germany.

Do you have a census of every Goth that lived at that time, where they were born, moved, and buried? Moron.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:17 PM

We are supposed to believe a small tribal unit is responsible for every subclade in all of Europe.

Not really. On the other hand, Germanics claim every haplogroup. For example they even used to claim N1c as "native Nordic".

Now we have 3,500 years old N1c-L1026 from the Kola Peninsula, Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov, which shows N1c came from Siberia:

"Y-chromosomal haplotype N1c1a1a (N-L392) in individuals BOO002 and BOO004. Haplogroup N1c, to which this haplotype belongs, is the major Y chromosomal lineage in modern North-East Europe and European Russia, especially in Uralic speakers, for example comprising as much as 54% of Eastern Finnish male lineages today. Notably, this is the earliest known occurrence of Y-haplogroup N1c in Fennoscandia. The 3,500-year-old ancient individuals from Bolshoy evidence the earliest presence, as well as the highest proportion of Siberian ancestry in this region."

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:25 PM

I did not read all of it because every second word was a personal insult against me - and that's just for suggesting that your Y-DNA can be Slavic.

Get some medications for your anger.

Why would modern Germans carry Gothic Y-DNA if Goths never lived in Germany? Slavs, on the other hand, did live in Germany in the Middle Ages.

As for Goths - Goths came to the Roman Empire crossing the border between the Black Sea and the Carpathian Mountains, not across the Rhine.

You didn't suggest, you dealt an absolute. Theres a difference.

Btw how much more movement happened after cultures formed in the middle ages? Alot right? Thought so. You're cutting out alot of time to fit your absolutes.

You keep bringing up general M458 levels too, when I am discussing a specifically rare cluster within L1029, which is just a subclade of M458. Not the whole thing.

L1029 predates slavic ethnogenesis. Its at most Proto-Slavic. You forget that Goths assimilated alot in Eastern Europe. The fact you claim to act like you know the language and culture the carrier was is supreme ignorance. Varangians were also in Western Macedonia. Do you know they were hired from all over the Baltics, Northern, and Central Europe? You like to make broad generalizations that fit one specific agenda don't you?

Do you not know the reality is extremely more complex than you may think?

Why am I negative for all the predominant Slavic clades under L1029? Maybe it was an assimilated Proto-Slav/Lusatian? Carried with the Goths. Maybe a single dude working trade on the Amber Road came to Rome early as a merchant? No no, I suppose you know everything.

Bosniensis

05-04-2018, 06:28 PM

Dibran is a true Slav.

Try learning Slavic language... maybe .. as a natural you'll learn it in a minute.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:29 PM

L1029 predates slavic ethnogenesis.

Nope it doesn't, its TMRCA is estimated to be ca. 2000-2100 ybp (around 100 BCE):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

Slavic ethnogenesis is estimated 3500-2500 years ago (Kushniarevich et al. 2015).

We are supposed to believe a small tribal unit is responsible for every subclade in all of Europe.

Slavs were not a "small tribe unit" during the Migration Period, they had to be already very numerous in 400-500 AD.

They could be a small tribe unit back in 100 BC, but not few centuries later, when they started their massive expansion.

Aren

05-04-2018, 06:32 PM

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:38 PM

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:39 PM

Not really. On the other hand, Germanics claim every haplogroup. For example they even used to claim N1c as "native Nordic".

Now we have 3,500 years old N1c-L1026 from the Kola Peninsula, Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov, which shows N1c came from Siberia:

"Y-chromosomal haplotype N1c1a1a (N-L392) in individuals BOO002 and BOO004. Haplogroup N1c, to which this haplotype belongs, is the major Y chromosomal lineage in modern North-East Europe and European Russia, especially in Uralic speakers, for example comprising as much as 54% of Eastern Finnish male lineages today. Notably, this is the earliest known occurrence of Y-haplogroup N1c in Fennoscandia. The 3,500-year-old ancient individuals from Bolshoy evidence the earliest presence, as well as the highest proportion of Siberian ancestry in this region."

If you turned your Slavic blinders off for a second you would have read my post with a little more temperance. I never suggested it was Germanic in the strictest sense. I never even suggested it was dominant. Let me break it down in bullets

-M458/L1029-possibly pre Germanic Lusatian
-Most surmise Lusatians were Proto-Balto-Slavic.
-Goths had more of a Elite and Cultural/linguistic impact than a genetic one
-L1029 -b-Western Goths are most probably assimilated native Lusatians that moved with migration patterns as Germanic speakers
-L1029- B- Western reaches the highest levels in Poland and Germany(Diversity is highest in these two countries)
-L1029-B-Western is only common(as far as the Balkans is concerned) in Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, Greeks and now Albanians(me and my match)
-Most L1029 is of B-Eastern variety and YP515 in Eastern Europe and the Balkans.
-Majority of South Slavic and East European R1a is Z280.
-M458 only reaches 4 percent in Serbia, most of which is L1029-B-Eastern and YP515

Context. I never said L1029 is or only is Germanic. I said a cluster of it(B-Western) was likely assimilated into Gothic movements. Therefore, not all of its carriers(despite a Proto Slavic or Lusatian ancestor) would have spoken Slavic on arrival. Much like for the last 1000-1500 years(my founder effect) my ancestors were speaking Albanian(not Slavic). Don't ignore that clades split and form separate clusters. Don't also ignore all the data thus far. R1a is practically minimal in Germany anyway. Which doesnt disprove my point. It only strengthens it considering how diverse that little cluster is there and in Poland. While its only 20 percent of Polish M458, Poland still has the highest number of people with L1029-B-Western, and second in Diversity. Some could have gotten caught over the border when national borders were drawn throughout history. You don't know everything. History is only a blueprint. Science trumps it every time. Science is also showing East Germanics didnt have much of a genetic impact on the natives in Poland they assimilated. Which could explain the East-West dichotomy.

Peace

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:40 PM

we know that a big part of Slavic land today (mostly Poland) was inhabited by Germanics pretty early on.

And that's where you get all of this R1b and I1-M253, among others, in modern Poles from.

R1a + I2a-Din is only 1/2 of Polish Y-DNA, the other half are other, Non-Slavic, haplogroups.

If you start assigning also R1a-M458 to Germanics, it will turn out that Poles are more Germanic than Slavic.

R1a-M458 is 1/4 of Polish Y-DNA (1/2 of R1a), and this includes 3 main subclades, L260, L1029 and YP515.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:40 PM

Dibran is a true Slav.

Try learning Slavic language... maybe .. as a natural you'll learn it in a minute.

Ok mr "Illyrian". Fucking retard. I have an Albanian founder effect. You're a typical CTS10228 Slav. Move along.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:42 PM

It's fucking funny when the same people call Poles 100% Slavic and then claim that 3/4 of Polish haplogroups are Non-Slavic.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:43 PM

Nope it doesn't, its TMRCA is estimated to be ca. 2000-2100 ybp (around 100 BCE):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

Slavic ethnogenesis is estimated 3500-2500 years ago (Kushniarevich et al. 2015).

Slavs were not a "small tribe unit" during the Migration Period, they had to be already very numerous in 400-500 AD.

They could be a small tribe unit back in 100 BC, but not few centuries later, when they started their massive expansion.

wrong. TMRCA is 2300ypb(300BC) per Michals methods. This update is supposed to follow yfull shortly. Ages are always changing anyway. Could go up or down in years, flipping everything on its head.

Additionally, L1029 formed 13-1200BC, and is believed to originate between elbe and oder. Slavs werent there in 1200BC. Proto-Balto-Slavs, not Slavs(as defined in the middle ages).

Aren

05-04-2018, 06:45 PM

And that's where you get all of this R1b and I1-M253, among others, in modern Poles from.

R1a + I2a-Din is only 1/2 of Polish Y-DNA, the other half are other, Non-Slavic, haplogroups.

If you start assigning also R1a-M458 to Germanics, it will turn out that Poles are more Germanic than Slavic.

R1a-M458 is 1/4 of Polish Y-DNA (1/2 of R1a), and this includes 3 main subclades, L260, L1029 and YP515.

I wasn't assigning it to Germanics, I'm just pointing out that maybe there was a East Germanic subclade of R1a.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:45 PM

It's fucking funny when the same people call Poles 100% Slavic and then claim that 3/4 of Polish haplogroups are Non-Slavic.

I wish you could learn to read. I am sounding like a broken record. Since when is a small rare cluster within L1029, ALL R1a in Poland, or even ALL haplogroups?

READ!

I said it was either Lusatian, Proto-Balto-Slavic, or Proto-Slavic natives assimilated by Goths. Why must you throw all eggs in one basket? You're smarter than that.

Bosniensis

05-04-2018, 06:46 PM

Ok mr "Illyrian". Fucking retard. I have an Albanian founder effect. You're a typical CTS10228 Slav. Move along.

Yeah those founder effects always work in your favor xD

Or maybe Albanians used Steppe mercenaries long time ago then adopted you as one of theirs.

Ülev

05-04-2018, 06:46 PM

there was also theory that all R1b was Celtic, R1a Germanic and I2a1b Slavic, Celts stole name "Germans", Germans became "Slavic" and I2a1b moved to Balkans
so R1a Z284 in Scandinavia is in fact North Germanic, Z280 East Germanic and M458 Elbe Germanic
in short you will never know the truth

Dibran

05-04-2018, 06:50 PM

Yeah those founder effects always work in your favor xD

Or maybe Albanians used Steppe mercenaries long time ago then adopted you as one of theirs.

Its most common and diverse in Germany and Poland. You don't know anything about haplogroups to begin with, so I will leave it at that.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 06:50 PM

We do not know if all of R1a present in modern day Slavs is proto-Slavic, first of all the few early Slavic samples we have are not enough to validate anything and we know that a big part of Slavic land today(mostly Poland) was inhabited by Germanics pretty early on. There's North Germanic R1a-Z284 and a presumably West Germanic or shared North/West Germanic R1a-L664. There were most likely East Germanic subclades of R1a, not common in other Germanics aswell.

I wrote the "Historical Context" section of this article for Eupedia, I listed there what ancient Y-DNA samples we have from Poland so far:

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_dna_project_poland.shtml

As you can see there was some R1a in ancient Poland (generally Bronze Age, so even before Germanic tribes came), but it was not M458.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 07:09 PM

a big part of Slavic land today(mostly Poland) was inhabited by Germanics pretty early on

Czechia, Slovakia - that's where the Marcomannic Wars were fought. Moldova, parts of Ukraine - that's the Bastarnae.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcomannic_Wars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

But neither Czechia, Slovakia nor Poland were inhabited only by Germanic tribes. Those were ethnically mixed areas.

Dick

05-04-2018, 08:37 PM

Here are my closest SNP matches(albeit 2000-2300ypb). The one with no country listed is from Poland.

Most of my distant SNP matches are from Sweden, Poland, Finland, Russia, Denmark, Norway, Hungary, Belarus, Bulgaria, Estonia, Romania, England, Slovakia, and 10 unknown origin with no names listed(in that order). All TMRCA 2300ypb.

https://s9.postimg.cc/cn1n5uqfz/SNP_Matches.png

Only one close STR match from Beijing, China lmao. Ko nee chee wa lol. Hes a native Han. Probably a Germanic or Slav taken by the Huns along the silk road.

Where is the Italian from? Most Tmrca subclades are old to pinpoint to a specific tribe. For example mine has recently changed and now I only have 1 Spaniard and 1 American that has ancestry from England with the Tmrca being around 3000ybp. We were told by admins told it could from either Goths, Suebi or Saxons but maybe the American has Norman paternal ancestry? who knows until you get a very close match I guess. Yours could be from any tribe as of now. Then again, how many men are actually interested in pursuing deeper clades, not many.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 08:43 PM

Czechia, Slovakia - that's where the Marcomannic Wars were fought. Moldova, parts of Ukraine - that's the Bastarnae.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcomannic_Wars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

But neither Czechia, Slovakia nor Poland were inhabited only by Germanic tribes. Those were ethnically mixed areas.

Yet you are still throwing all haplogroups in one basket like you claim others do. You actually used to be quite level headed months ago. You seem to have jumped on the bandwagon like others. I recall I was the only one who actually listened when you suggested your R1b was of the Slavic variety. Despite others calling you Celt. Yet here you are making the same broad generalization(which I would agree with if I had typical L1029 expression). Considering I don't you still seem adamant otherwise. Yet you can never find anyone with my clade other than an Albanian at the moment, and my relation to other L1029 split off between 300-100BC. Yet you ignored all my posts and questions exposing your contradictory speech on the matter. Because you know the lack of ADNA for M458 makes your position as flimsy as mine. The difference is I am going based on updated data and your quoting me 2012 articles from eupedia and wikipedia.

Being that you just admitted groups were mixed and cross-assimilation is a thing, I will say it again:

I never suggested it was Germanic in the strictest sense. I never even suggested it was dominant. Let me break it down in bullets

-M458/L1029-possibly pre Germanic Lusatian
-Though modern L1029 has a TMRCA between 300-100BC(closer to 300 BC per michals method), L1029 formed in 12-1300BC. That is a fact, check yfull. It would suggest they were heavily depopulated(hence modern groups having closer TMRCA).
-L1029-B-Western is the most widespread cluster of L1029 despite rarity.
-Most surmise Lusatians were Proto-Balto-Slavic.(customary cremation could explain lack of ADNA) .
-Goths had more of a Elite and Cultural/linguistic impact than a genetic one in Poland and Belarus.
-L1029 -B-Western Goths are most probably assimilated native Lusatians that moved with migration patterns as Germanic speakers. The lineage would be predominantly natives assimilated into East Germanic tribal confederations(even history suggests the Goths had flimsy knit networks, inviting others into their ranks).
-L1029- B- Western reaches the highest levels in Poland and Germany(Diversity is highest in these two countries)
-L1029-B-Western is only common(as far as the Balkans is concerned) in Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, Greeks and now Albanians(me and my match)
-Most L1029 is of B-Eastern variety and YP515 in Eastern Europe and the Balkans.
-Majority of South Slavic and East European R1a is Z280, that which is L1029 is of the B-Eastern and YP515 variety.
-M458 only reaches 4 percent in Serbia, most of which is L1029-B-Eastern and YP515.

Founder effect per tested novels at yseq happened as early as 400AD and as late as 900AD. Terminal SNP is basal FGC72553*. First confirmed case. Given its instability I may just be L1029* negative downstream. I would love to know with your so called genius given lack of any ADNA and supporting material how you're dead set on claiming my ancestor was Slavic. Where are all the Slavs in my branch? Why do I not possess all the clades associated with separate migrations? Why do I have a founder effect when the very thing is indicative of one or few men being isolated from major population and mixing with a new one?

Do you know the proof of Evolution and migration out of Africa is the fact that most genetic diversification occurs in Africa?

Do you know genetic diversity is used in population genetics, both autosomal and YDNA to pinpoint origins of a clade?

Why does Germany and Poland have the highest diversification of "L1029-B-Western" predating the migratory event, even when they have fewer L1029 percentage and population across the board?

The thing is, you're not a scientist. Most of the assertions on these forums are merely that, assertions. A mix of the truth with a bag of lies. Thats what most on here are good for.

The truth is, its most probably Proto-Slavic or Lusatian. How it was transmuted and whom carried it is dependent on contextual details, clade, age, diversity, probability. You're ignoring all that because it serve your agenda. Earlier you called me a Slavophobe. I am not. Even if I was, you're a hypocrite because you among others are known for race bashing. This is the Apricity after all. Where its "cool" to be a white supremacist. Where Slavs hate themselves. Where Indians suck British cock and race shame their own. Hardly anyone here is level minded. Even the best of us fall prey when we hang in this cesspool too long.

J2b and E-V13 have Albanian founder effects. But, there are also Slavic founder effects in these haplogroups as well. You wouldn't call one or the other without knowing the specific details and data would you?

Most of your replies are broadly referencing M458, when I am referring to a specific cluster in a specific clade within it. Which is found all over the east and south balkans in rare amounts, but most common in Germany and Poland.

I can't see how that specific cluster is tied only to Slavic movements given few Slavs possess it.

Even when you rewind to M458, the strongest diversification is in Central Europe. Maybe Slavs were never from Pripyat, ok, maybe thats neo nazi propaganda. But, where is the rest of it?

if M458 is originated in Central Europe as the current data would imply given diversification of clades, why is it so uncommon within the majority of Slavs aside from Poles?

That also leads to the next point. Polish Slavic has some unique pre-slavic sub-stratum in their language that may be from Lusatians.

Sweden has like little to no L1029 but still has more diversity in the few discovered samples of the B-Western cluster than does Bulgaria for instance, which has plenty of B-Western,but not as high a diversification.

I think its Lusatian. a descendant of Corded. You yourself posted East Germanic sanples who had high "Slavic" admixture. Admixture sometimes(but not always) runs complementary to the degree of haplogroups. Which shows they already may have absorbed some native corded types with some R1a that is typically Slavic today. Even recent peer reviewed studies found "Luthuanian" to be the purest indication of Slavic admixture as well. Yet you keep coming at me with Eupedia where Maciamo called R1a and I2a1b Illyrian. Clearly these people are not professional scientists or historians.

Like all things, theres alot of pseudo-science cloaked in the actual evidence. Don't lose sight of that.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 08:55 PM

Where is the Italian from? Most Tmrca subclades are old to pinpoint to a specific tribe. For example mine has recently changed and now I only have 1 Spaniard and 1 American that has ancestry from England with the Tmrca being around 3000ybp. We were told by admins told it could from either Goths, Suebi or Saxons but maybe the American has Norman paternal ancestry? who knows until you get a very close match I guess. Yours could be from any tribe as of now. Then again, how many men are actually interested in pursuing deeper clades, not many.

I would say Germanics definitely in your case. Especially where your matches comes from. My Italian SNP match is from Sardinia. I know the Goths and Vandals went there. However, given passage of time, it could have easily arrived from the Italian mainland(that could have come from Arberesh or Greek settler that was an assimilated Avaro-Slav earlier). That can't be ruled out either. Considering Byzantines also occupied Sardinia, it could have arrived in this way as well.

My closest STR match(Idk whats more reliable SNP or STR?) is a Han Chinese from Beijing. Native. lolol. He is also a basal L1029-B-Western, but a different clade. TMRCA between me and all other L1029 is 300-100BC, so as you say, could have arrived with anyone. I was only using the established data to suggest it could have been an assimilated Lusatian that traveled with Goths, given its relative rarity outside Germany and Poland and highest diversification among them(most Balkanic L1029 is B-Eastern and YP515).

A British kid on R1a group in facebook mentioned his ancestor was a Saxon as far as he knows. He was also part of this Western-B cluster of L1029. Which is why I hypothesized it was a Proto-Slav or Lusatian native that moved with some East Germanic tribes. Even recent peer reviewed papers found Slavic admixture in East Germanic remains.

Most archaeological remains tend to suggest that the Goths didn't mix much with those they assimilated in Poland. So the elite substratum was most probably I1. Its a shame, FGC offers affordable payment plans. I think everyone should take advantage. Maybe my ancestor was a lone Slav or Germanized native Goth. Maybe even a Roman slave, given the Amber Road was pivotal to Roman power.

I do have a close match though, but our founder effect happens downstream of my terminal clade which as of yet is still unstabe(FGC27553)

Dick

05-04-2018, 08:58 PM

I would say Germanics definitely in your case. Especially where your matches comes from. My Italian SNP match is from Sardinia. I know the Goths and Vandals went there. However, given passage of time, it could have easily arrived from the Italian mainland(that could have come from Arberesh or Greek settler that was an assimilated Avaro-Slav earlier). That can't be ruled out either. Considering Byzantines also occupied Sardinia, it could have arrived in this way as well.

My closest STR match(Idk whats more reliable SNP or STR?) is a Han Chinese from Beijing. Native. lolol. He is also a basal L1029-B-Western, but a different clade. TMRCA between me and all other L1029 is 300-100BC, so as you say, could have arrived with anyone. I was only using the established data to suggest it could have been an assimilated Lusatian that traveled with Goths, given its relative rarity outside Germany and Poland and highest diversification among them(most Balkanic L1029 is B-Eastern and YP515).

A British kid on R1a group in facebook mentioned his ancestor was a Saxon as far as he knows. He was also part of this Western-B cluster of L1029. Which is why I hypothesized it was a Proto-Slav or Lusatian native that moved with some East Germanic tribes. Even recent peer reviewed papers found Slavic admixture in East Germanic remains.

Most archaeological remains tend to suggest that the Goths didn't mix much with those they assimilated in Poland. So the elite substratum was most probably I1. Its a shame, FGC offers affordable payment plans. I think everyone should take advantage. Maybe my ancestor was a lone Slav or Germanized native Goth. Maybe even a Roman slave, given the Amber Road was pivotal to Roman power.

I do have a close match though, but our founder effect happens downstream of my terminal clade which as of yet is still unstabe(FGC27553)

I laugh when I see some clades on Yfull that are only like 50-100 ybp. Like, Wtf? xD Lucky bastards.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 09:00 PM

I laugh when I see some clades on Yfull that are only like 50 ybp? Like, Wtf? xD

Lmao. I think its cause people test themselves and 2nd-3rd generation relatives so it splits the clades early. I noticed 3 L1029 Swedes, one of which who was TMRCA 1000ypb, but the two relatives that branched from him were only 100ypb.

Peterski

05-04-2018, 09:28 PM

I laugh when I see some clades on Yfull that are only like 50-100 ybp. Like, Wtf? xD Lucky bastards.

Postman from Nashville who fathered at least 1300 children:

http://mistrzowie.org/690098/Listonosz

http://mistrzowie.org/uimages/services/mistrzowie/i18n/pl_PL/201704/1491398938_by_maxx92.jpg?1491398938

What if he has Native American Y-DNA? He fathered entire tribe.

Dick

05-04-2018, 09:30 PM

Postman from Nashville who fathered at least 1300 children:

What if he has Native American Y-DNA? He fathered entire tribe.

Lmao, there's an old saying in Canada that if the kid dosn't look like the dad then it's the milkman's or postman's kid. Probably true back in the 40's, 50's when just men worked and wives stayed home xD

Peterski

05-04-2018, 09:32 PM

Probably true back in the 40's, 50's when just men worked and wives stayed home xD

Men were Saving Private Ryan, and their wives back at home...

But American soldiers also fathered kids in Europe in the 1940s.

Dick

05-04-2018, 09:34 PM

Men were Saving Private Ryan, and their wives back at home...

But American soldiers also fathered kids in Europe in the 1940s.

The fucker does have his own tribe. Ah well, if humans weren't fucking then none of us would be alive today.

Vlatko Vukovic

05-04-2018, 10:19 PM

Slavic ethnogenesis was - of course - not around 500 AD. Around 500 AD was when they first appeared at the Danube River.

Their ethnogenesis had to be centuries before that, but they had not been present along the Danube (Roman border) yet.

We don't have clear informations about Slavs before 5th century, so it is hard to say anything. But according to language, the Baltic languages are very archaic and most likely is that Slavic acutally developed from Baltic, more accurate that proto-Baltic actually refer to a same thing as proto-Balto-Slavic do. Proto-Slavic language is thought to be spoken just from 5th-9th century.

Dibran

05-04-2018, 10:54 PM

Lmao, there's an old saying in Canada that if the kid dosn't look like the dad then it's the milkman's or postman's kid. Probably true back in the 40's, 50's when just men worked and wives stayed home xD

Lol the best is the pool boy joke. “But honey, We don’t have a pool...”

Dibran

05-04-2018, 11:00 PM

We don't have clear informations about Slavs before 5th century, so it is hard to say anything. But according to language, the Baltic languages are very archaic and most likely is that Slavic acutally developed from Baltic, more accurate that proto-Baltic actually refer to a same thing as proto-Balto-Slavic do. Proto-Slavic language is thought to be spoken just from 5th-9th century.

He doesn’t seem to understand that I’m afraid. More likely is that M458 was Proto-Balto-Slavic. Some theories suggest Lusatians were Proto-Balto-Slavic. Which would mean the lineage was present when Goths arrived and likely some subclades are the result of native assimilation. But according to him they only were and spoke Slavic. As if he had a complete census at a time where national consciousness didn’t exist in the turbulent late iron and early Middle Ages.

He puts all his eggs in one basket.

Vlatko Vukovic

05-05-2018, 07:42 AM

He doesn’t seem to understand that I’m afraid. More likely is that M458 was Proto-Balto-Slavic. Some theories suggest Lusatians were Proto-Balto-Slavic. Which would mean the lineage was present when Goths arrived and likely some subclades are the result of native assimilation. But according to him they only were and spoke Slavic. As if he had a complete census at a time where national consciousness didn’t exist in the turbulent late iron and early Middle Ages.

He puts all his eggs in one basket.

M458 among Balts is also not clear. It's not so presented among Balts, but primarly among Slavs and Eastern Germans. What is reason for it, and from where M458 originated is still mystery.

Peterski

05-05-2018, 08:51 AM

M458 among Balts is also not clear. It's not so presented among Balts, but primarly among Slavs and Eastern Germans.

Some samples of R1a with ancestry from East Prussia (most of M458 from East Prussia have surnames of Slavic origin):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?243238-R1a-from-East-Prussia

Dibran

05-05-2018, 02:48 PM

Some samples of R1a with ancestry from East Prussia (most of M458 from East Prussia have surnames of Slavic origin):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?243238-R1a-from-East-Prussia

Iron Age, Iron Age, Iron Age. No samples, modern to late middle age samples are irrelevant when determining who carried it in the late iron and early middle ages. I feel like a broken record at this point for repeating it over and over. Besides those samples are L260, YP515, and L1029 B-Eastern. None of which are the clades that are part of this discussion. I already clearly stated those above clades are predominantly occurring in Slavs. L1029-B-Western does not. So theres likeliehood it was carried in minimal amounts as Germanized natives with Gothic migrations. Even Maciamo says as much in his new updated info. He literally said what I have been saying, that M458 had probably a 5 percent frequency give or take within Eastern Germanic tribes. Meaning it was a assimilated native lineage amongst them, and therefore not all branches within M458 are entirely Slavic(in as far as the person carrying the clade itself was culturally or linguistically slavic). More likely a Proto-Balto-Slavic native assimilated by East Germanic tribes. Unless you have ADNA in the Slavic Urheimat proving M458 was entirely Slavic than its a flimsy claim.

Most ADNA for Slavic and Baltic cultures are Z280. Even Maciamo says not all M458 was entirely carried by Slavic Speakers(notice I said speakers and not lineage).

Dibran

05-05-2018, 03:04 PM

M458 among Balts is also not clear. It's not so presented among Balts, but primarly among Slavs and Eastern Germans. What is reason for it, and from where M458 originated is still mystery.

M458 experienced a huge depopulation event. Or rather its clade L1029. L1029 formed 1200BC, likely between the Elbe and Oder as is suggested. Most L1029 have a TMRCA presently of 2100-2300BC. Which indicated their population was heavily reduced sometime in the late iron age probably, considering modern carries don't have a further derived ancestor. It had another boom after that, thanks predominantly to the Slavic migration event. So it was carried by Slavs. However like E-V13 has Slavic founder effects, L1029 doesn't entirely have slavic clades. The most predominant cluster of L1029 in East, West, and South Slavs is L1029-B-Eastern, and YP515 under M458. B Eastern includes YP417 and all subsequent downstream clades that line up with migration patterns of Slavic tribes. I belong to a Albanian founder effect within "L1029-B-Western", Which includes FGC27553, its downstream clade YP263, and the clades YP444 and L1029* basal. L1029-B-Western has the highest frequency in Germany and Poland, including the most diversity, which is likely an indication of where it spread from. As far as the Balkans is concerned, it is only common in Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, Greeks, and now Albanians(me and my match). Even then, L1029-B-Western cluster is only 20 percent of Bulgarian M458. The more dominant being the aforementioned B-Eastern and YP515. The overwhelming majority of Slavic R1a belongs almost exclusively to Z280. Even in Serbia, M458 only reaches 4 percent, of which most belongs to L1029-B-Eastern and YP515, with little to no L1029-B-Western variety.

So given current data and lack of ADNA, I hypothesized that L1029-B-Western cluster is a minimal atypical Germanized Proto-Balto-Slavic native that was part of Gothic migration waves. Even in Southern Sweden, B-Western has more diversity than some Slavic countries despite L1029 being practically non-existant. It also has minimal occurrence in the entire British Isles. In their case probably a Germanized native that moved with Saxons, or depending on their clade, a Pomeranian Slavic Viking that may have had settled colonies in Scandinavia.

There is also the case of the Varangian guard, whom, despite peoples claiming they were only Germanic, were actually later a enlistment that trained men from the British Isles, to Scandinavia, the Balts and even Russia. But, apparently all Varangians were only Germanic I1. lol. Pseudo-Science is what most people run with.

But, in short, given I only share a common ancestor to 300-100 BC with other L1029, my branch likely diverged separately from major tribal movements. It could have been a merchant on the amber road taking work from the Romans. No one knows every scenario. People here whom act like they do are merely conjecturing. Including those who deal absolutes.

Dibran

05-06-2018, 06:50 PM

.............

....................

New L1029 sample from Hessen Germany. First instance of basal YP619* under L1029, formed 0AD, TMRCA 150AD. Upstream ancestor of YP444. It is part of the L1029-B-Western cluster. Again my point still seems to be proving itself. B-Western Cluster is most prominent in Germany/Poland. All L1029 so far in the British Isles is of the B-Western variety. He is one of my SNP matches on Yfull. Surname Buchhammer. Part of Pennsylvania German migrations. Descended prior from the Palatinte.

In the case of British Isles its probably assimilation that moved with their migration:

"During the Middle Ages, because of international Hanseatic trading routes and contingent migration, Saxons mixed with and had strong influences upon the languages and cultures of the Baltic peoples, Finnic peoples, and Polabian Slavs and Pomeranians, both West Slavic peoples, as well as influencing the North Germanic languages."

https://s9.postimg.cc/9j1la8alb/yp619.png

Dibran

06-05-2018, 12:27 PM

..............

.........

............

...........

......

New Albanian match added to our founder effect under L1029. Obviously for confidentiality reasons not revealing any names. He could be at the same distance as the previous match, however, given some differences in unstable regions, this new match may be 300 years back further. Assuming he is eventually tested to confirm what novels we share, it may end up the same. The suspected TMRCA for the founder effect of our cluster is between 1000-1600ypb. Current results place me and my first match around 800AD split. Assuming this does not change, and the differences on unstable markers are legit, the second match could have split around 500AD.

However, there are currently 8 more novel SNPs testing. The TMRCA could be refined up or down depending on those results. So, nothing is set in stone. Currently however, this founder cluster only has 3 Albanians. Myself from Dibra, another from Gostivar, and another from Tirana.

Kelmendasi

06-05-2018, 03:05 PM

I've noticed that many Albanian branches under different haplogroups have TMRCA of around 1600 ybp.
Could this be an indicator of when the Albanian etho-genesis have occurred?
I'm pretty sure that some scholars have linked the Albanian ethnogenesis to 1500 years ago so it could be possible.

Dibran

06-05-2018, 04:28 PM

I've noticed that many Albanian branches under different haplogroups have TMRCA of around 1600 ybp.
Could this be an indicator of when the Albanian etho-genesis have occurred?

Perhaps this is when it occurred. However, Proto-Albanians would have likely been in the same area beforehand. Perhaps the new converging elements yielded the ethno-genesis of Albanians at that time?

The founder effect is suspected to be as early as 400AD with my first match and as late as 1000AD. Currently the 800AD could indicate a Byzantine(given timeline), as late as 1000AD could indicate an absorbed individual from the Bulgarian Empire. However, if that were the timeline it wouldnt make sense if the founder effect occurred 300 years prior with the second match. Which would mean the line was absorbed around 700AD assuming original projections.

I should have my remaining novel results for my match end of July(per YSEQ). We will have it nailed down then, afterwhich our terminal clade should be defined. To be certain the second match goes back 300 years further, he would need to test all the novels.

Pubiczar

06-05-2018, 05:04 PM

Perhaps this is when it occurred. However, Proto-Albanians would have likely been in the same area beforehand. Perhaps the new converging elements yielded the ethno-genesis of Albanians at that time?

The founder effect is suspected to be as early as 400AD with my first match and as late as 1000AD. Currently the 800AD could indicate a Byzantine(given timeline), as late as 1000AD could indicate an absorbed individual from the Bulgarian Empire. However, if that were the timeline it wouldnt make sense if the founder effect occurred 300 years prior with the second match. Which would mean the line was absorbed around 700AD assuming original projections.

I should have my remaining novel results for my match end of July(per YSEQ). We will have it nailed down then, afterwhich our terminal clade should be defined. To be certain the second match goes back 300 years further, he would need to test all the novels.

That's pretty cool...
It seems to me that many events have occurred in the Balkans that we are still unaware in the period 600AD - 1000AD.
Especially the Bulgarian Empire could have been a major catalyser for such events and movements...
Bad luck I have with my match, who doesn't even managing his account in FTDNA, but someone else who doesn't even replied to me as of yet.
Pity, we could have defined our branch and would have learned much more about ancestors...