Was I2a-Din originally Finno-Ugric (not Slavic)?

[Peterski]

Studies about Early Magyar DNA revealed that they had N1c and I2a-Din (among other haplogroups):

http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/10604/1/Vegleges_cikk_u.pdf

Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [12] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup A12,

Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [17] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup H6a1a.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

Perhaps I2a-Din originated among Uralic-speaking populations in the forest zone of Western Russia?

[Ülev]

that means only that they were I2ndigenous here - from Balkans to Scandinavia, from Pyrenees to Ural, before R1 Hordes came from north-west China?

[Jana]

Lol, it was obviously assimilated by them (in Ukraine probably) :)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Anyways... it's not very relevenat. since they weren't proto Finnic neither proto-Ugric but assimilated. :)

[Kelmendasi]

Nope, I2a-Din was originally from Mesolithic NW Europe so it spoke the language of the WHG people. It was absorbed by them and other people in east Europe such as the Slavs

[Peterski]

Nope, I2a-Din was originally from Mesolithic NW Europe so it spoke the language of the WHG people. It was absorbed by them and other people in east Europe such as the Slavs

NW Europe had mostly I2a2 and I2a1a, while I2a1b (ancestral to I2a-Din) was probably in Eastern Europe.

The WHG people lived also in Ukraine and Latvia, it's not like they were restricted only to Western Europe.

[Kelmendasi]

NW Europe had mostly I2a2 and I2a1a, while I2a1b (ancestral to I2a-Din) was probably in Eastern Europe.

The WHG people lived also in Ukraine and Latvia, it's not like they were restricted only to Western Europe.
I2a1b wasn't in East Europe originally, I2a2a1b has been found there more often than I2a1b and I2a1a seems to have had a more SW origin although it was present in northern Europe too. I2a1b samples have all mainly been found in western Europe originally and the fact that the brother clade of I2a1b-Din is almost restricted to NW/W Europe shows that I2a1b had a split somewhere there also I2a1b-Din was found in Motala which is NW European. I2a1b people probably moved from the West into the East

[Peterski]

Motala was Scandinavian, and SHG were a mix of 50% EHG + 50% WHG:

https://i.imgur.com/gFmxxDr.png

As you can see, Mesolithic Scandinavians were not NW European people.

I2a1b was also found in one Baltic hunter-gatherer sample from Lithuania.

[Peterski]

Scandinavia is in the middle of Northern Europe, it is neither North-West nor North-East - it is North-Central.

Both geographically and genetically.

The same applies to Mesolithic Scandinavia which was settled by a mix of western and eastern populations.

======

NW Europe = British Isles, Northern France, Belgium, Netherlands, maybe Norway & Denmark. But not Sweden & Finland.

[Popeye]

No, it wasn't EHG if thats what youre saying.

[Kelmendasi]

Motala was Scandinavian, and SHG were a mix of 50% EHG + 50% WHG:

[ig]https://i.imgur.com/gFmxxDr.png[/img]

As you can see, Mesolithic Scandinavians were not NW European people.

I2a1b was also found in one Baltic hunter-gatherer sample from Lithuania.
The I2a1b in those SHG samples came from WHG peoples from Western Europe. The earliest samples of I2a1b are from Western Europe and as I said before, the brother clade of I2a1b-Din which is I2a1b-L161.1 is almost exclusively found in NW/W Europe and seems to have the highest diversity there suggesting an I2a1b split in that region. Also I2a1b was found in more Western European ancient samples than Eastern European samples

[Peterski]

No, it wasn't EHG if thats what youre saying.

That's not what I'm saying, it could be of Eastern WHG origin.

WHG people lived also in places like Ukraine, Lithuania and Latvia.

[Popeye]

That's not what I'm saying, it could be of Eastern WHG origin.

WHG people lived also in places like Ukraine, Lithuania and Latvia.

Yeah I know that. But Finno Ugric aren't of WHG origin. They are probably of EHG origin.

[Kelmendasi]

That's not what I'm saying, it could be of Eastern WHG origin.

WHG people lived also in places like Ukraine, Lithuania and Latvia.
Its most likely not for the reasons I have stated

[Peterski]

The I2a1b in those SHG samples came from WHG peoples from Western Europe.

Except that WHG people did not originate in Western Europe.

"The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe" by Fu et al. shows, that WHG people colonized Western Europe from the east after the Last Ice Age. As prof. David Reich said, the WHG had an increased affinity to the east, when compared to Pre-WHG populations of Western Europe.

[Kelmendasi]

Except that WHG people did not originate in Western Europe.

"The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe" by Fu et al. shows, that WHG people colonized Western Europe from the east after the Last Ice Age.
Now this is just evading what has been said. You know what I’m talking about lol so why change the topic..Anyways the I2a1b entered via WHG who came from West Europe regardless if they had distant origin from the east

[Peterski]

One question: who inhabited Western Russia before ANE people came there from Siberia?

Because my understanding is that Russia was WHG before ANE people came there.

EHG people emerged from the mixing of Eastern WHG with ANE (who brought microblades):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250308329_New_AMS-dates_for_the_Upper_Volga_Mesolithic_and_the_origi n_of_microblade_technology_in_Europe

[Peterski]

"Karmin et al. 2015 found an I-B61 subclade of I2a1b2-L621 only in Chuvash 13764. The Chuvash speak a basal Turkic language that exhibits some similarities with some peculiar Hungarian words of Turkic origin or affinity. Karmin et al. 2015 also found an I2a1b2-L621 > I-B57 > I-B59 subclade in Vepsa 17632. In any case, there is evidence in the literature for the presence of members of "I2a-Din" among various Baltic-, Uralic-, Turkic-, Greek-, or Germanic-speaking populations besides the typical Slavic-speaking members of that clade. However, the territory principally inhabited by Slavic-speaking ethnic groups is located centrally relative to every one of those other linguistic groups among which "I2a-Din" have been found."

^^^ Veps are a Finno-Ugric ethnic group from North-Western Russia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vepsians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veps_National_Volost

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Muromian-map.png

[Peterski]

So far we have only four Early Medieval samples of I2a-Din from Hungary, Poland and Russia:

Hungary, Karos-Eperjesszög [12], 900-950 AD
Hungary, Karos-Eperjesszög [17], 900-950 AD
Poland, Niemcza [13], 900-1000 AD
Russia, Sunghir [6], 1040-1220 AD

What is interesting, Niemcza samples are autosomally Finnic-shifted...

"Niemcza" also means "settlement of mute people" (people who don't speak our language).

[cosmoo]

Such a small thread yet so full of bullshit. No, they were not Finno-Ugric, but natives to northern/northwestern Europe, firstly Germanicized, then Slavicized after spreading to Eastern Europe.

NW Europe had mostly I2a2 and I2a1a, while I2a1b (ancestral to I2a-Din) was probably in Eastern Europe.

The WHG people lived also in Ukraine and Latvia, it's not like they were restricted only to Western Europe.
No, NW Europe had tons of I2a1b. It was the single most numerous clade of pre-Bronze Age Britain, with total of 12 samples, followed by I2a2 which had 10 samples (Olaide et al. 2017). It was also found all the way across Scandinavia, from Motala in Sweden to Steigen in northern Norway in Mesolithic, and also on Neolithic Gotland.

The easternmost sample of it come from Lithuania. The more northern Baltic states, Latvia and Estonia, were populated by a mainly EHG population, and they mostly carried some R1b and I2a2 branches. The I2a1b in southern Baltic was obviously a western intrusion, and those which could be tested for a deeper subclade were I2a1b-L161.1 (Isles), not Dinaric, which was found in Mesolithic Sweden (Mathieson et al. 2017).

Moreover, notice that today "Dinaric's" parent clade, "Disles", inhabits NW Europe almost exclusively.


Motala was Scandinavian, and SHG were a mix of 50% EHG + 50% WHG:
Not all Scandinavians, but some of the Norwegian ones. Those in southern Scandinavia were overwhelmingly WHG.


That's not what I'm saying, it could be of Eastern WHG origin.
It can not.


Except that WHG people did not originate in Western Europe.

"The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe" by Fu et al. shows, that WHG people colonized Western Europe from the east after the Last Ice Age. As prof. David Reich said, the WHG had an increased affinity to the east, when compared to Pre-WHG populations of Western Europe.

Retarded calcutardism, showing no genetic discontinuity after LGM (the most logical age for that to happen), but around 14.000 ybp, when nothing significant happened at all.


EHG people emerged from the mixing of Eastern WHG with ANE (who brought microblades):
No, ANE didn't bring microlithic points and tools. Their emergence in Mesolithic is outdated assumption, more recent research proves widespread use of microliths in Gravettian Europe, possibly even Aurignacian.

[Peterski]

^^^
So how do you explain the presence of I2a-Din among Early Magyars?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJbwSOI3wX8

[Peterski]

Cosmoo maybe Avars were I2a-Din as well. We know that many Avars married Slavic women in the Balkans.

[Ülev]

why R1 folk reject their great eastern heritage? and want to give other those happiness

[Bosniensis]

The I2a1b in those SHG samples came from WHG peoples from Western Europe. The earliest samples of I2a1b are from Western Europe and as I said before, the brother clade of I2a1b-Din which is I2a1b-L161.1 is almost exclusively found in NW/W Europe and seems to have the highest diversity there suggesting an I2a1b split in that region. Also I2a1b was found in more Western European ancient samples than Eastern European samples

So are I2a1b Celts?

[Peterski]

why R1 folk reject their great eastern heritage? and want to give other those happiness

Because of R1-I2 brotherhood, also known as Polish-Magyar brotherhood:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMHkSgXNQog

[Ülev]

Because of R1-I2 brotherhood, also known as Polish-Magyar brotherhood:

video=yo

it is that kind of brotherhood (R1a and I2a1) like the love between 3 y.o. girl and cat:
1) girl will chock the cat and will not allow him go, or
2) cat will scratch the girl and chose freedom
isn't it?

[Kelmendasi]

So are I2a1b Celts?
Celts originally would have been R1b(U152 etc) as they are an IE group although some I2 clades as well as other haplogroups did get absorbed into the Celtic ethnic group. The I2 clades which could have links are I2a1b-L161.1 and I2a2b/I2a-L38

[Jackson78]

Cosmoo maybe Avars were I2a-Din as well. We know that many Avars married Slavic women in the Balkans.

:picard1:

[JQP4545]

Studies about Early Magyar DNA revealed that they had N1c and I2a-Din (among other haplogroups):

http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/10604/1/Vegleges_cikk_u.pdf

Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [12] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup A12,

Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [17] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup H6a1a.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

Perhaps I2a-Din originated among Uralic-speaking populations in the forest zone of Western Russia?

Where in the studies does it say the haplogroup I samples from Hungary are Dinaric? I see that the samples were speculated to be I2a based on STR markers, which the authors of the study acknowledge may not be able to accurately identify the haplogroup.

[Popeye]

Who cares if it was Slavicized or not? Its taking autism to another level. It was Neolithicized before it was Slavicized too, going by that logic as it was found in a lot of Neolithic sites. WHG isn't just Western Europe btw, its Europe in general.

It was spread by Slavic speakers into the Balkans. A large chunk of our genes are Indo Europeanized anyway. Its just a huge coping mechanism.

[JQP4545]

^^^
So how do you explain the presence of I2a-Din among Early Magyars?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJbwSOI3wX8

I2a has been found in Neolithic samples from Hungary; https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6257. It probably was assimilated by the Magyars.

[Jana]

I2a has been found in Neolithic samples from Hungary; https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6257. It probably was assimilated by the Magyars.

Not. Neolithic I2a in Hungary isn't dinaric, as these medieval samples were ( I remember somebody ran them trough Nevgen predictor, one is dinaric-south and other dinaric-north).
It was surely assimilated, but before entering Hungary in case of these warriors (first generation conquerors)

[Jana]

Cosmoo maybe Avars were I2a-Din as well. We know that many Avars married Slavic women in the Balkans.

Avars much more likely to carry R1a, than I2a :)

[Peterski]

Avars much more likely to carry R1a, than I2a :)

Why would that be? R1a is IE and Avars were most likely Non-IE.

[Jana]

Why would that be? R1a is IE and Avars were most likely Non-IE.

R1a Z93 is also Turkic!

[Ülev]

all of Africa is IE!!!!

at least they speak in IE languages (English, French, Portuguese, German-Namibia?, etc.)

[Peterski]

R1a Z93 is also Turkic!

And Ashkenazi Jewish. But it was assimilated from Iranic people in both cases.

[cosmoo]

Who cares if it was Slavicized or not? Its taking autism to another level. It was Neolithicized before it was Slavicized too, going by that logic as it was found in a lot of Neolithic sites. WHG isn't just Western Europe btw, its Europe in general.

It was spread by Slavic speakers into the Balkans. A large chunk of our genes are Indo Europeanized anyway. Its just a huge coping mechanism.

What Neolithic sites do you speak of? I2a1b L161.1 was found indeed, but not CTS10228, which is "I2a-Din".
And yes, I am interested, as many are, in its deeper origin. If you do not like it, get lost. Moreover, it did not become Slavic overnight, it was a process that was happening in different moments depending on area, but on average it occurred not earlier than 1500 years ago. That is well into historical era and obviously important.
It is exactly what it is- a native northern European lineage which firstly got Germanicized by newly-arrived IE, then Slavicized as it moved out eastwards.

[Bosniensis]

What Neolithic sites do you speak of? I2a1b L161.1 was found indeed, but not CTS10228, which is "I2a-Din".
And yes, I am interested, as many are, in its deeper origin. If you do not like it, get lost. Moreover, it did not become Slavic overnight, it was a process that was happening in different moments depending on area, but on average it occurred not earlier than 1500 years ago. That is well into historical era and obviously important.
It is exactly what it is- a native northern European lineage which firstly got Germanicized by newly-arrived IE, then Slavicized as it moved out eastwards.

What became Slavic over night?

We are not speaking about the culture but Ancestry.

Who are the oldest advanced people in Europe from whom we descended?

That's the right question.

The fact we were Germanized, Slavicized, etc... that means nothing.

[LoLeL]

why R1 folk reject their great eastern heritage? and want to give other those happiness

Ask Davidski about it. And you should add E* folk to R1* club. Both groups have similar mentality. Compare frustrated E & R1 dudes with cool and relax G, I, J and the others.

[Bosniensis]

Cosmoo maybe Avars were I2a-Din as well. We know that many Avars married Slavic women in the Balkans.

Only Croatian I2a (cause they were in Austro-Hungarian Empire)

Avari - Havari - Havarati - Hrvati (Croati)

You see....

Croatians are Avars and they mixed with Hungarians and Austrians so they are Hungo-Avars with Austrian admixture.

[Jana]

HAHA, Bosniensis is lunatic, ignore him....:lmao:

[Popeye]

What Neolithic sites do you speak of? I2a1b L161.1 was found indeed, but not CTS10228, which is "I2a-Din".
And yes, I am interested, as many are, in its deeper origin. If you do not like it, get lost. Moreover, it did not become Slavic overnight, it was a process that was happening in different moments depending on area, but on average it occurred not earlier than 1500 years ago. That is well into historical era and obviously important.
It is exactly what it is- a native northern European lineage which firstly got Germanicized by newly-arrived IE, then Slavicized as it moved out eastwards.

Most of your autosomal isn't made up of hunter gatherers. Its predominantly Neolithic and Steppe with some WHG. A ydna doesn't matter much. And they also came from somewhere. A lot of the hunter gatherers in Europe got absorbed into a Neolithic population and later Steppe people. I2a din could of well been part of this just because it yet hadn't been found means nothing as farmers and Steppe reached all the way up to Northern Europe. Its Slavicization within not earlier than 1500 years is absolutely nonsense so is a late expansion into the east. 1500 years ago, Slavic speakers were already expanding into the Balkans. I2a din took part in forming the Slavs orand atleast the South Slavs. So technically it is Slavic in origin. The proto Slavs werent Slavs, its all the people that formed them. Which is why proto means before.

That I2a in general is descendant of hunter gatherers is nothing new so an interest in its deeper origin is just a huge coping mechanism of yours for originating from the ballsack of a Slav.

Hunter gatherers were also originally dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed and developed lighter features later.

Sardinians have some I that is probably from hunter gatherers but they are pred. Neolithic.

Ydna % of modern European populations is the result of bottle neck effects, founder effects etc. and means absolutely nothing. You cant claim to be native in the whole Europe like this Bosniensis. Youre taking all autism to another level. Europe is a political invention first and foremost.


Hunter gatherers also had some clades of J and R1b probably etc.

[cosmoo]

Most of your autosomal isn't made up of hunter gatherers. Its predominantly Neolithic and Steppe with some WHG.
Not interested in calcutardism, my visage begs to differ.


Its Slavicization within not earlier than 1500 years is absolutely nonsense so is a late expansion into the east. 1500 years ago, Slavic speakers were already expanding into the Balkans. I2a din took part in forming the Slavs orand atleast the South Slavs. So technically it is Slavic in origin. The proto Slavs werent Slavs, its all the people that formed them. Which is why proto means before.
Firstly learn to write coherent and articulated sentences properly, then address me.
But I can guess what are you trying to say, while same can't be said for your interpretation of my writings, so I will try to dumb it down for the barely-human likes of you: what I said is that it became Slavic in different time and at different places. No, it definitely was not a part of Slavic spread as a whole (it was in specific places), and it is evident that it varied wildly among different Slavic groups, as it didn't enter Slavic ethnos during its very ethnogenesis, but later.
The populations which brought I2a1b CTS10228 to Slavs are some of the Germanicized (Indo-Europeanized natives of northern Europe) tribes most commonly known as "East Germanic". Leaders of Serbian DNA project consider Bastarnae as the most likely candidate, for example, I consider the Goths, et cetera, but this is the point that all agree on, as a connection between north/northwest (where the earliest CTS10228 was found) and Slavs must be established via some proxy population.


That I2a in general is descendant of hunter gatherers is nothing new so an interest in its deeper origin is just a huge coping mechanism of yours for originating from the ballsack of a Slav.
And again, the Slavs are, together with my own kin, which is a part of Slavic linguistical ethnos, the most admirable ethnic group known to me, so I can not see how can I be "coping" here.
I was not talking about I2a, but about I2a1b>CTS10228 specifically. And not only about its evident hunter-gatherer past in the Mesolithic, but the fact that it became part of Slavic ethnos during the new era, well into the historical times.

This level of butthurt and passive sniggerish remarks is not surprising at all, coming from a Shqiptar whose wretched kin still complains about those "lands lost to the Slavs", a retarded notion given the fact that you are not successors of all Illyrian tribes combined, only of a few.

I would not be surprised if you were just a badly acting sockpuppet of an another banned Albanian. Your malice is evident, given how you mentioned "cope" in the very first post of this thread.

And unlike you, I have nothing to cope about in this regard, for both by name and by deeds my ancestry runs deep, composed of men of honor who during harsh centuries of foreign onslaught of Balkans never knelt, while yours is composed of eternal bootlickers, with special recently-discovered affinity for organ harvesting.
The non-fact of being "first" on Balkans that you, oddly enough, take great pride in, is, I assume, a failed self-consolement for being a perpetual footnote of history?