Why do Iberians have so much less Caucasus-related ancestry than other South Europeans?

[Sikeliot]

Caucasus-related ancestry makes up a large plurality of central-southern Italian, Albanian, and Greek DNA, a significant portion for Balkan Slavs and northern Italians, and is higher in several other unexpected places in Europe than in Iberia.

Even SARDINIA has much more.

Why is it so low in Iberia, uncharacteristic for the rest of Southern Europe?

From Dodecad K12b you can see this:

Cyprus: 49.35
Greece: 37.40
Sicily: 36.54
South Italy: 36.50
Central Italy: 32.13
Bulgaria: 30.73
Tuscany: 30.47
Romania: 28.40
North Italy: 22.78
Sardinia: 20.92
Ukraine: 16.40
Hungary: 16.20
Russia: 14.31
Balearic islands: 14.20
Andalusia: 12.89
Poland: 12.09
Canary Islands: 11.20
Murcia: 11.20
Lithuania: 10.10
Castilla y Leon: 10
Valencia: 9.91
Germany: 9.80
Portugal: 9.71
Catalunya: 9.20
Cantabria: 8.90
Castilla la Mancha: 8.80
France: 8.41
Kent, England: 3.30
Finland: 1.30
Sweden: 1.20
Irish: 0.20
Orkney: 0

[Bobby Martnen]

Probably distance from West Asia, which means they have more Celtic and North African heritage instead

[Sikeliot]

Probably distance from West Asia, which means they have more Celtic and North African heritage instead

When people wonder why Iberians do not cluster autosomally with most South Europeans, this is why: low Caucasian input. Around 1/3 of Tuscan, Sicilian, Greek, Bulgarian ancestry and 1/5 to 1/4 of North Italian, Romanian, etc. is Caucasus. Some Iberians have under 10%.

[Bobby Martnen]

When people wonder why Iberians do not cluster autosomally with most South Europeans, this is why: low Caucasian input. Around 1/3 of Tuscan, Sicilian, Greek, Bulgarian ancestry and 1/5 to 1/4 of North Italian, Romanian, etc. is Caucasus. Some Iberians have under 10%.

Here's my favorite person of Iberian descent

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/922635744002367489/6L7TnlvT_400x400.jpg

[A_Magnus7]

Because Iberian are originally Hamitic Proto-Berber, they migrated into Iberian peninsula before they mixed with Indo-European Celts and created Celtiberian people, some parts of Spain like the north west or in Pirenei have more Indo-European ancestry, Andalusian and central-Spain has less of course because of that and hell yeah Berber/Arab invasion in the VIII century until 1492, los reyes catolicos removed the moros and jews but most of them were already mixed between indigenous people so yeah

[Percivalle]

Caucasus-related ancestry makes up a large plurality of central-southern Italian, Albanian, and Greek DNA, a significant portion for Balkan Slavs and northern Italians, and is higher in several other unexpected places in Europe than in Iberia.

Even SARDINIA has much more.

Why is it so low in Iberia, uncharacteristic for the rest of Southern Europe?

From Dodecad K12b you can see this:

Cyprus: 49.35
Greece: 37.40
Sicily: 36.54
South Italy: 36.50
Central Italy: 32.13
Bulgaria: 30.73
Tuscany: 30.47
TSI30: 28.60
O_Italian_D: 28.50
Romania: 28.40
North Italy: 22.78
Sardinia: 20.92
Ukraine: 16.40
Hungary: 16.20
Russia: 14.31
Balearic islands: 14.20
Andalusia: 12.89
Poland: 12.09
Canary Islands: 11.20
Murcia: 11.20
Lithuania: 10.10
Castilla y Leon: 10
Valencia: 9.91
Germany: 9.80
Portugal: 9.71
Catalunya: 9.20
Cantabria: 8.90
Castilla la Mancha: 8.80
France: 8.41
Kent, England: 3.30
Finland: 1.30
Sweden: 1.20
Irish: 0.20
Orkney: 0

You forgot TSI30 (28.60) that is another Tuscan sample and O_Italian_D (28.50). Anyway, Dodecad K12b is now a very obsolete calculator.

[Sikeliot]

You forgot TSI30 that is another Tuscan sample and O_Italian_D. Anyway, Dodecad K12b is now a very obsolete calculator.

It is, but the trend of high Caucasus ancestry in nearly all other Southern Europeans has been seen time and time again, this was just a quick illustration of this on my part here.

[Scar]

It is, but the trend of high Caucasus ancestry in nearly all other Southern Europeans has been seen time and time again, this was just a quick illustration of this on my part here.

More Ibero-Maurisian ancestry? What I call Ibero-Maurisian is predominantly a West Med + Berberoid influence.

[Sikeliot]

More Ibero-Maurisian ancestry? What I call Ibero-Maurisian is predominantly a West Med + Berberoid influence.

That would imply that they had higher Caucasian input and it was diluted. From what I see, they never received much at all: the migration out of the Caucasus and the Iran area barely hit Iberia at all.

[Percivalle]

It is, but the trend of high Caucasus ancestry in nearly all other Southern Europeans has been seen time and time again, this was just a quick illustration of this on my part here.

Yep, but it's not surely Dodecad K12b that can tell something interesting about that, created long before the discovery of CHG and Yamnaya (who were a mix of EHG and CHG).

[Damião de Góis]

Why is it so low in Iberia, uncharacteristic for the rest of Southern Europe?


Why would it be high given the distance?


Because Iberian are originally Hamitic Proto-Berber, they migrated into Iberian peninsula before they mixed with Indo-European Celts and created Celtiberian people, some parts of Spain like the north west or in Pirenei have more Indo-European ancestry, Andalusian and central-Spain has less of course because of that and hell yeah Berber/Arab invasion in the VIII century until 1492, los reyes catolicos removed the moros and jews but most of them were already mixed between indigenous people so yeah

:laugh: Of course...

[Hadouken]

post the gedrosia scores too please

[Cristiano viejo]

Because we are not South Europeans.

[Damião de Góis]

post the gedrosia scores too please

I get 6 on that calculator. I also get higher caucasus than average at 13.

[Bobby Martnen]

Because we are not South Europeans.

:picard2:

What do you think you are, Northern Europeans?

:picard2:

[Cristiano viejo]

:picard2:

What do you think you are, Northern Europeans?

:picard2:
Damn, no! Western Europeans :D

[FilhoV]

I score on K12b 9%

On Eurogenes K13 I score 2.38

[Autrigón]

Because we are not Southern Europeans. We are Iberians and that's all, no more words are needed.

[Leto]

Spain and Portugal are in Southwestern Europe. Western Europe proper is France.

[Petalpusher]

There s two sources of caucasus like ancestry, Yamnaya and something else parallel in the bronze age but more "southern", they don't have much of both, the latter never reached them directly i think. If we are talking in CHG or Iran_N, it seems it's actually Finland with the lowest now.

[Cristiano viejo]

Spain and Portugal are in Southwestern Europe. Western Europe proper is France.

Spain and Portugal are located more Western than France. Fact.

[Tietar]

Because we are not Southern Europeans. We are Iberians and that's all, no more words are needed.

Exactly, that shit pretending that we belong to the group of the Mediterranean people of distant cultures, countries, and continents can go to hell, we Iberians are Celtiberians, Paleolithic, especially in the North. The descendants of those who discovered art 40,000 years ago

https://laplacamadre.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/54922.jpg

[Ylla]

There s two sources of caucasus like ancestry, Yamnaya and something else parallel in the bronze age but more "southern", they don't have much of both, the latter never reached them directly i think. If we are talking in CHG or Iran_N, it seems it's actually Finland with the lowest now.

So what explains high R1b?

[kleenex]

The distance from the Caucasus may have something to do with it since the migrations were East to West.

[kleenex]

I'ts sort of irrelevant if your ancestors were in Europe 10,000, 7000 or 3000 years ago. If you're Euro you're Euro. Those groups who remained in the Caucasus are Caucasian (Georgian, Armenian), those who remained in the Steppe (Eurasians) are Eurasians those who came to Europe are Slavs, Celts, Balts, Germanic. I'm not sure I understand the point of these posts.

[Scar]

I'ts sort of irrelevant if your ancestors were in Europe 10,000, 7000 or 3000 years ago. If you're Euro you're Euro. Those groups who remained in the Caucasus are Caucasian (Georgian, Armenian), those who remained in the Steppe (Eurasians) are Eurasians those who came to Europe are Slavs, Celts, Balts, Germanic. I'm not sure I understand the point of these posts.

Armenians aren't real Caucasians, they are Indo-Europeanized Assyrians living in the Caucasus.

[kleenex]

In my opinion we should stop scrambling to see who's more Euro or whose more Western and truly understand genetic migrations. I do believe that when all is said and done many of us who think we're more European or Western may, in fact, discover the contrary.

[ADonkeyBrain]

Because it didn't have the same relationship with the Balkan-Aegean-Anatolian area, where high Caucasus via a separate, non-IE eastern stream is already becoming very evident in the pre-IE population (e.g. Krepost, Minoans, Anatolia_BA), that Italy had - though it will be interesting to find out when and exactly how Italy got it. Just compare Iberia_BA to Balkan_IA and Mycenaeans. Similarly, the later Near Eastern input in Iberia seems more Levantine/North African, not Anatolian-Armenian oriented like in the Balkans and Central Italy(?).

Extra Caucasus isn't the only reason why Iberians cluster separately though, obviously, it's also the greater preservation of WHG ancestry in Southwestern Europe compared to Southeast, evident in the ancient samples too. This makes sense considering the early Neolithic wave of advance came again from Anatolia.

Dienekes's calculator seems to pile on various things in its Caucasus score, though, including steppe ancestry (and more eastern or northern, ANE-heavy streams seems to increase it more) as mentioned. Older calculators just confuse things a bit.

Was that question rhetorical anyway? I'm sure you know all this, already, based on previous discussions.

[Sikeliot]

Because it didn't have the same relationship with the Balkan-Aegean-Anatolian area, where high Caucasus via a separate, non-IE eastern stream is already becoming very evident in the pre-IE population (e.g. Krepost, Minoans, Anatolia_BA), that Italy had - though it will be interesting to find out when and exactly how Italy got it. Just compare Iberia_BA to Balkan_IA and Mycenaeans. Similarly, the later Near Eastern input in Iberia seems more Levantine/North African, not Anatolian-Armenian oriented like in the Balkans and Central Italy(?).

Extra Caucasus isn't the only reason why Iberians cluster separately though, obviously, it's also the greater preservation of WHG ancestry in Southwestern Europe compared to Southeast, evident in the ancient samples too. This makes sense considering the early Neolithic wave of advance came again from Anatolia.

Dienekes's calculator seems to pile on various things in its Caucasus score, though, including steppe ancestry (and more eastern or northern, ANE-heavy streams seems to increase it more) as mentioned. Older calculators just confuse things a bit.

Was that question rhetorical anyway? I'm sure you know all this, already, based on previous discussions.


My question was more why Iberia avoided that wave of migration. I did already understand how Balkans and Italy acquired such admixture, I just wondered why it didn't then pass further westward into Iberia.

Caucasus input is also what separates the otherwise overlapping southern French and north Italians... Caucasian input increases sharply when you cross from France into Italy across a very short distance.

[Petalpusher]

So what explains high R1b?

R1b's took their farm money and womenz, as usual. It simply suggests they didn't land directly in the southwest, it was a long process of expansion, so they probably carried less of the Yamnaya like admixture when they reached Iberia, but still the same paternal markers (DF27 in particular).

Just like when the farmers expanded, they brought a new major "technology" with them, food production, IE brought other type of cool stuff. This gets you all the women.

[Sebastianus Rex]

:picard2:

What do you think you are, Northern Europeans?

:picard2:


Because we are not Southern Europeans. We are Iberians and that's all, no more words are needed.


Spain and Portugal are in Southwestern Europe. Western Europe proper is France.

Genetically Iberians are on average more western shifted than French but also more southern, so you can consider it a micro-region of western Europe. Genetically we don't cluster with other southern Europeans, closest proximity populations are French and North Italians (both pred. western European).

[Sp_loa]

With that said, interestingly Enough Iberians aren't that different from other Southern Europeans Phenotypically.

[Sebastianus Rex]

With that said, interestingly Enough Iberians aren't that different from other Southern Europeans Phenotypically.

In terms of pigmentation is truth, altough the predominant facial features are distinct. Iberians have a much lower degree of overall dinarcization and nose convexity, this is especially visible in group pics.

[Sp_loa]

In terms of pigmentation is truth, altough the predominant facial features are distinct. Iberians have a much lower degree of overall dinarcization and nose convexity.

So id my Relatives look distinctively Spaniards (you can look at my last threads, and you did saw others while ago if you remember) it is most likely because of Iberian DNA?

[Sp_loa]

In terms of pigmentation is truth, altough the predominant facial features are distinct. Iberians have a much lower degree of overall dinarcization and nose convexity, this is especially visible in group pics.

And if you can please comment on the 3 threads I have (I have only those 3 threads ). Thank you !

[Sebastianus Rex]

So id my Relatives look distinctively Spaniards (you can look at my last threads, and you did saw others while ago if you remember) it is most likely because of Iberian DNA?

I don't know, possibly.

[Tietar]

With that said, interestingly Enough Iberians aren't that different from other Southern Europeans Phenotypically.

taking into account that people see similar Pedro Sanchez and Alexis Tsipras, when they have totally different skulls. The fact that the color of the eyes, hair, and skin, means the same phenotype is enough to affirm that all this about the med phenotype is a lot of shit for assholes.

https://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/jpg/8/0/1458243550308.jpg

"Both Med types"
"IMO they look similar"
"Both have a similar look, Med with some Berid"

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?176652-Greek-prime-minister-(Tsipras)-vs-spanish-leader-of-the-opposition-(Sanchez)

[Sp_loa]

taking into account that people see similar Pedro Sanchez and Alexis Tsipras, when they have totally different skulls. The fact that the color of the eyes means the same phenotype is enough to affirm that all this about the med phenotype is a lot of shit for assholes.

https://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/jpg/8/0/1458243550308.jpg

"Both Med types"
"IMO they look similar"
"Both have a similar look, Med with some Berid"

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?176652-Greek-prime-minister-(Tsipras)-vs-spanish-leader-of-the-opposition-(Sanchez)

Not talking about pigmentation, But for example, Alpine-Meds exists all over Southern Europe and they look pretty similar everywhere (even when they have blue eyes like my aunt). You can also find Atlanto-Meds in Greece... Some people are Pan-Southern Europeans. If Iberians were 100% distinguishable this wouldn't happen.