New study on Iberian Peninsula genetics

[Token]

Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula


Genetic differences within or between human populations (population structure) has been studied using a variety of approaches over many years. Recently there has been an increasing focus on studying genetic differentiation at fine geographic scales, such as within countries. Identifying such structure allows the study of recent population history, and identifies the potential for confounding in association studies, particularly when testing rare, often recently arisen variants. The Iberian Peninsula is linguistically diverse, has a complex demographic history, and is unique among European regions in having a centuries-long period of Muslim rule. Previous genetic studies of Spain have examined either a small fraction of the genome or only a few Spanish regions. Thus, the overall pattern of fine-scale population structure within Spain remains uncharacterised. Here we analyse genome-wide genotyping array data for 1,413 Spanish individuals sampled from all regions of Spain. We identify extensive fine-scale structure, down to unprecedented scales, smaller than 10 Km in some places. We observe a major axis of genetic differentiation that runs from east to west of the peninsula. In contrast, we observe remarkable genetic similarity in the north-south direction, and evidence of historical north-south population movement. Finally, without making particular prior assumptions about source populations, we show that modern Spanish people have regionally varying fractions of ancestry from a group most similar to modern north Moroccans. The north African ancestry results from an admixture event, which we date to 860 - 1120 CE, corresponding to the early half of Muslim rule. Our results indicate that it is possible to discern clear genetic impacts of the Muslim conquest and population movements associated with the subsequent Reconquista.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/12/250191

[Sikeliot]

This is what I have been saying -- variation in Iberia is east to west, rather than north to south.

[Kamal900]

Hmm, so I guess the NA admixture among Iberians isn't ancient, is it? Good study nonetheless.

[Sikeliot]

From Supplementary Info. This confirms what I have said... North African input centers on Portugal and western Spain.

Iberians are basically French, with input from North-Central Italy and North Africa.

Italy cluster used here centers on North-Central Italy entirely, around Emilia and Tuscany.

"Here we discuss the ancestry profiles for the six Iberian clusters in more detail (referring to Supplementary Figure 4). Only seven of the 29 donor groups (six with >1% contribution to any group) show any meaningful contribution in ancestry profiles, and are primarily in Western and Southern Europe, and north-west Africa. For all six Iberian clusters the largest contribution comes from France, with smaller inferred contributions that relate to present-day Italian and Irish samples. Because these contributions are present and dominate overall ancestry throughout Spain, they might represent ancient ancestry components, rather than recent migration. The remaining contributions come from North Morocco and Western Sahara, and show strong (and highly significant) regional differences, varying continuously across Spain. The North Moroccan component steadily declines from 11% in the far west to near 0% in the Basque region."

"A very small (0.2%) but statistically non-zero contribution from sub-Saharan Africa is present for just one cluster (red triangles), which contains individuals largely from Portugal and regions of southern Iberia, such as Andalucia, and Murcia."

https://i.imgur.com/XBbXaEO.png

[Black Panther]

All I know is Brazilian niggas are more European than Iberians.

[GiCa]

Oh... So Muslim Al-Hispania left a genetic input.

Proofed.

This is very important.

[Sikeliot]

So basically, you go from being like a very ancient French population in the Basque country, to being a French population with minor Tuscan-like admixture in eastern Spain, to being progressively admixed with Berber admixture and a decrease in the French component (which still predominates) in western Spain and Portugal.

It is therefore entirely common sense to suggest that, as I long have, Portuguese show more phenotypical North African influence than do the Spanish overall, because it is nearly 1/8 of their ancestry. You CAN look like a great grandparent, and 1/8 of ancestry can show.

[Jana]

Hmm, so I guess the NA admixture among Iberians isn't ancient, is it? Good study nonetheless.

I think it's both:

Perhaps surprisingly, north African ancestry does not reflect proximity to north
Africa, or even regions under more extended Muslim control. The highest amounts
of north African ancestry found within Iberia are in the west (11%) including in
Galicia, despite the fact that the region of Galicia as it is defined today (north of the
Miño river), was never under Muslim rule and Berber settlements north of the
Douro river were abandoned by 741. This observation is consistent with previous
work using Y-chromosome data12.

this does not sugesst all or most north african in Iberia is moorish, quite the contrary.

[Aren]

From Supplementary Info. This confirms what I have said... North African input centers on Portugal and western Spain.

Iberians are basically French, with input from North-Central Italy and North Africa.

Italy cluster used here centers on North-Central Italy entirely, around Emilia and Tuscany.

"Here we discuss the ancestry profiles for the six Iberian clusters in more detail (referring to Supplementary Figure 4). Only seven of the 29 donor groups (six with >1% contribution to any group) show any meaningful contribution in ancestry profiles, and are primarily in Western and Southern Europe, and north-west Africa. For all six Iberian clusters the largest contribution comes from France, with smaller inferred contributions that relate to present-day Italian and Irish samples. Because these contributions are present and dominate overall ancestry throughout Spain, they might represent ancient ancestry components, rather than recent migration. The remaining contributions come from North Morocco and Western Sahara, and show strong (and highly significant) regional differences, varying continuously across Spain. The North Moroccan component steadily declines from 11% in the far west to near 0% in the Basque region."

"A very small (0.2%) but statistically non-zero contribution from sub-Saharan Africa is present for just one cluster (red triangles), which contains individuals largely from Portugal and regions of southern Iberia, such as Andalucia, and Murcia."

https://i.imgur.com/XBbXaEO.png

I litteraly just posted this to Christiano Viejo who denied any North African influence an hour ago. Seems like I get about the same numbers using nMonte.

"distance%=3.1615"

Spanish_Aragon

Barcin_N,54.2
Yamnaya_Samara,26.6
WHG,12.8
Mozabite,3.4
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,3

"distance%=2.4797"

Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Barcin_N,53.4
Yamnaya_Samara,16.2
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,13.6
WHG,11.8
Mozabite,5

"distance%=2.1625"

Spanish_Galicia

Barcin_N,48.6
Yamnaya_Samara,28.8
WHG,11.6
Mozabite,11

"distance%=2.3004"

Spanish_Extremadura

Barcin_N,49.8
Yamnaya_Samara,29.2
WHG,10.8
Mozabite,10.2

[Sikeliot]

I litteraly just posted this to Christiano Viejo who denied any North African influence an hour ago. Seems like I get about the same numbers using nMonte.

"distance%=3.1615"

Spanish_Aragon

Barcin_N,54.2
Yamnaya_Samara,26.6
WHG,12.8
Mozabite,3.4
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,3

"distance%=2.4797"

Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Barcin_N,53.4
Yamnaya_Samara,16.2
Yamnaya_Kalmykia,13.6
WHG,11.8
Mozabite,5

"distance%=2.1625"

Spanish_Galicia

Barcin_N,48.6
Yamnaya_Samara,28.8
WHG,11.6
Mozabite,11

"distance%=2.3004"

Spanish_Extremadura

Barcin_N,49.8
Yamnaya_Samara,29.2
WHG,10.8
Mozabite,10.2



Also, on GEDMatch, Portuguese often can be modeled as Spanish + 10-12% North African. This is no coincidence.

I also think the so called "Berid" phenotype in Iberia is a reflection of this North African influence.

[Hulu]

The north African ancestry results from an admixture event, which we date to 860 - 1120 CE, corresponding to the early half of Muslim rule. Our results indicate that it is possible to discern clear genetic impacts of the Muslim conquest and population movements associated with the subsequent Reconquista.




Shock horror

[Jana]

Also interesting:


Within Spain, north African ancestry occurs in all groups, although levels are low in
the Basque region and in a region corresponding closely to the 14th-century ‘Crown
of Aragon’ (Figure 3c). Therefore, although genetically distinct, this implies
that the Basques have not been completely isolated from the rest of Spain over the
past 1300 years.


Our earlier results imply the incorporation of Basque-like DNA elsewhere within
Spain.


GLOBETROTTER shows a subtle preference for Western Sahara as a source of North
African DNA, as opposed to north Morocco. This might be explained if modern-day
north Moroccan haplotypes are more similar to present-day Spanish individuals than
the historical admixing population was. Indeed, previous work found that modern day
north Moroccan haplotypes carry a component of European ancestry that most
likely arrived subsequent to the detected admixture event, and this is consistent
with a mixture analysis we performed of the north Moroccan group itself


For all six Iberian clusters
the largest contribution comes from France (63 - 91%), with smaller contributions
that relate to present-day Italian (5 - 17%) and Irish (2 - 5%) group

[GiCa]

Also, on GEDMatch, Portuguese often can be modeled as Spanish + 10-12% North African. This is no coincidence.

I also think the so called "Berid" phenotype in Iberia is a reflection of this North African influence.

Berid looks to me like an intermediate standard south Europe med typology with Saharid north African typology.

Intermediate

[Leto]

Interesting study. Nevertheless the Iberians are still white/Europeans, 10% North African is not much and it's still not Negroid anyway. 90% of their ancestry is Neolithic.

[Tietar]

Is it sponsored by Soros ?.

It is enough to check the premeditation of the study to deduce that it is:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cpq66sfWcAEqXYS.jpg

[Kouros]

I doubt all 'North African' in Iberians is modern. I'm typing this comment without having read the study yet though and solely in response to conclusions posted in this thread that may or may not be true so feel free to call me a 'fucking dumbass'.

[Sikeliot]

I also think the increase of "Italian" ancestry as you go toward Portugal, is really not genuine Italian ancestry but is reflective of higher Eastern Mediterranean input from very ancient times, higher Caucasus, or both, and the only thing it could be picked up as was Italian.

[Leto]

I also think the increase of "Italian" ancestry as you go toward Portugal, is really not genuine Italian ancestry but is reflective of higher Eastern Mediterranean input from very ancient times, higher Caucasus, or both, and the only thing it could be picked up as was Italian.
Maybe from the Roman times?

[Tietar]

I doubt all 'North African' in Iberians is ancient. I'm typing this comment without having read the study yet though and solely in response to conclusions posted in this thread that may or may not be true so feel free to call me a 'fucking dumbass'.

the fact that there is no greater North African presence in the south, where in the last centuries of the reconquest it became a Muslim protectorate, and that supposedly there is a greater contribution in Asturias where no Moor stepped if it was not to die, It is enough to affirm, that it is not modern, and it's probably not even North African

[Sikeliot]

Maybe from the Roman times?

Possibly, or earlier. But given those choices -- French, Irish, Italian or Moroccan, it would seem anything Caucasus related ends up in the Italian cluster.

[GiCa]

the fact that there is no greater North African presence in the south, where in the last centuries of the reconquest it became a Muslim protectorate, and that supposedly there is a greater contribution in Asturias where no Moor stepped if it was not to die, It is enough to affirm, that it is not modern, and it's probably not even North African

It decreases from Portugal to East.

This is instead a proof that it s from moorish rule as they, the portugueses didn t expell muslims

And that put undobtly Portugal as the main source for north African genes in your peninsula.

#PortugalNorthAfricaHotspot

[Kouros]

the fact that there is no greater North African presence in the south, where in the last centuries of the reconquest it became a Muslim protectorate, and that supposedly there is a greater contribution in Asturias where no Moor stepped if it was not to die, It is enough to affirm, that it is not modern, and it's probably not even North African

Sorry I meant "I doubt it is all modern". My bad.

[Sikeliot]

What I am seeing in this is that Portugal and southwest Spain have the most North African which makes sense, where are people seeing that Cantabria or north Spain has a lot? The study does say the difference is west to east and not north to south but where is this explicitly stated?

[Aren]

I also think the increase of "Italian" ancestry as you go toward Portugal, is really not genuine Italian ancestry but is reflective of higher Eastern Mediterranean input from very ancient times, higher Caucasus, or both, and the only thing it could be picked up as was Italian.

Your wrong it's not extra Caucasus/Levantine but extra Anatolian farmer. The Italian here is probably Sardinian or Tuscan not Sicilian. The extra Iron/Bronze Age CHG input in France and in Iberia is about the same. So it wouldn't make sense that Iberians get 15-20% extra "Italian".

[Sikeliot]

Your wrong it's not extra Caucasus/Levantine but extra Anatolian farmer. The Italian here is probably Sardinian or Tuscan not Sicilian. The extra Iron/Bronze Age CHG input in France and in Iberia is about the same. So it wouldn't make sense that Iberians get 15-20% extra "Italian".

Tuscans still have much more Caucasus input than do Iberians.

As for the study, it also suggests one of the Portugal-Andalusia clusters shows recent (slave trade?) SSA input not related to the higher North African.

"The ‘Portugal-Andalucia’ cluster shows the greatest YRI contribution, and also shows some evidence of a second admixture date, with a more recent event involving only sub-Saharan- African-like and European-like source groups (see Supplementary Information for a fuller discussion; Supplementary Figure 6). This indicates a recent pulse of sub- Saharan African DNA, independent of the north African component."

[Sikeliot]

This also shows that Basque input increases/decreases opposite of the Berber.

Berber input is highest in Portugal.

https://i.imgur.com/XPMRQT8.png

[Bobby Martnen]

input from North Africa.


Hey, Cristiano, who's the Moor now?

[Token]

To synthesise all the recent papers in a single sentence, it seems that profoundly changing the genetic profile of a population wasn't that hard in ancient times and basically every fucking documented major historical migrations in Europe can be detected by ADMIXTURE today.

[Sikeliot]

To synthesise all the recent papers in a single sentence, it seems that profoundly changing the genetic profile of a population wasn't that hard in ancient times and basically every fucking documented major historical migrations in Europe can be detected by ADMIXTURE today.

What I find strange is that levels of ancestry in specific parts of countries are almost homogeneously blended by now, yet in countries today like the US or Brazil which saw input from many different groups, that is in no way the case.

[Leto]

To synthesise all the recent papers in a single sentence, it seems that profoundly changing the genetic profile of a population wasn't that hard in ancient times and basically every fucking documented major historical migrations in Europe can be detected by ADMIXTURE today.
A conquest doesn't not necessarily result in a population change.

[Token]

Also, on GEDMatch, Portuguese often can be modeled as Spanish + 10-12% North African. This is no coincidence.

I also think the so called "Berid" phenotype in Iberia is a reflection of this North African influence.

Highly improbable, Berid is metrically far removed from any North African series ever studied with the exception of Upper Paleolithic Afalou, which apparently didn't contributed much to the modern North African genepool.

[Token]

A conquest doesn't not necessarily result in a population change.

It almost always do.

[GiCa]

What I find strange is that levels of ancestry in specific parts of countries are almost homogeneously blended by now, yet in countries today like the US or Brazil which saw input from many different groups, that is in no way the case.

They just need more time to become omogeneus. People relatively recently arrived there.

If you want to know their future just look at my morphes for usa, Brazil and the New world

[Kelmendasi]

It almost always do.
Depends, Empires like the Hunnic, Ottoman and Mongolian empire don't seem to have left much if any impact on admix on the Europeans

[GiCa]

Depends, Empires like the Hunnic, Ottoman and Mongolian empire don't seem to have left much if any impact on admix on the Europeans

They did. Just look at Hungary, Romania etc

[Leto]

It almost always do.
Wrong. The Balkans were barely affected by the Ottoman conquest in terms of genetics. The Mongols didn't leave much of an impact on Russia either. The Russians didn't affect the populations of Central Asia and the Caucasus, the British didn't in India. Those were simply foreign administrations. Not everywhere a crazy miscegenation fest took place as in Brasil and America del Sur.

[Kelmendasi]

They did. Just look at Hungary, Romania etc
For majority of the countries they didn't. Hungarians today are basically just the same as other central/east Europeans genetically.

[Leto]

Depends, Empires like the Hunnic, Ottoman and Mongolian empire don't seem to have left much if any impact on admix on the Europeans
The Mongols mixed a lot in Central Asia, but in our lands they barely settled and assimilated.

[GiCa]

For majority of the countries they didn't. Hungarians today are basically just the same as other central/east Europeans genetically.

But they have eat Asian genes

[MercifulServant]

They did. Just look at Hungary, Romania etc

No they didnt in terms of genetics they had no impact

[MercifulServant]

But they have eat Asian genes

Like 3% which could be ancient. Even some NW europeans get around that amount on some calcs

[Token]

Wrong. The Balkans were barely affected by the Ottoman conquest in terms of genetics. The Mongols didn't leave much of an impact on Russia either. The Russians didn't affect the populations of Central Asia and the Caucasus, the British didn't in India. Those were simply foreign administrations. Not everywhere a crazy miscegenation fest took place as in Brasil and America del Sur.

What part of 'ancient times' you didn't understand? I'm talking about the first millenium beforewards, when most populations needed to migrate en masse to compensate their lack of organization and technology in order to succesfully conquer an already existing population.

[Leto]

Like 3% which could be ancient. Even some NW europeans get around that amount on some calcs
She probably has as much n-gger blood as you have East Asian, lol.

Seriously, in Russia for example the Mongoloid increases northwards and those parts of Russia were not affected by the Mongol destruction, in fact many of those cities didn't even exist in the 13th century. And typically East Eurasian haplogroups such as C and O are very rare among ethnic Russians. Hell, they are not even common among Volga Tatars (less than 5%) who are Turkic-speaking Muslims. On the other hand, C is the most common Y-haplogroup in Kazakhstan and Mongolia.

[Leto]

What part of 'ancient times' you didn't understand? I'm talking about the first millenium beforewards, when most populations needed to migrate en masse to compensate their lack of organization and technology in order to succesfully conquer an already existing population.
Okay, but are we talking about some influence or an outright population replacement? Iranians and Kurds speak Iranic languages, but they have little Aryan admixture.

[Token]

Okay, but are we talking about some influence or an outright population replacement?

Yep, some influence. I don't think there was any huge population replacement in Europe after the Bronze Age, everything else still counts as a replacement but in a much smaller scale.

[Token]

Iranians and Kurds speak Iranic languages, but they have little Aryan admixture.
You urgently need get yourself up to date on genetics, dude. Some Iranic speaking peoples have very high levels of 'Indo-Aryan' and generic steppe admixture, comparable to modern Central and Northern Europeans. Some serious shit happened there during the Bronze Age.

[Leto]

You urgently need get yourself up to date on genetics, dude. Some Iranic speaking peoples have very high levels of 'Indo-Aryan' and generic steppe admixture, comparable to modern Central and Northern Europeans. Some serious shit happened there during the Bronze Age.
Bro, I know enough about Steppe people. I even posted some results from specific countries. Kurds and Persians don't have much, look at their GEDmatch results. Eastern Iranic groups have more Steppe ancestry.

[Damião de Góis]

Berid looks to me like an intermediate standard south Europe med typology with Saharid north African typology.

Intermediate

A good example of "Berid":

https://www.autosport.pt/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/140366.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

As for the phenotypical effects of North African score on southern Portuguese i'm the perfect example. It basically has nothing to do with how people might look like.

Suggesting otherwise is pure retardation.

[Sikeliot]

A good example of "Berid":

https://www.autosport.pt/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/140366.jpg

Too much Atlantic influence.
Try these:

https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14212618_1009469729151358_6705053827337478907_n.jp g?oh=37eab63c08e70a94d10e36e91ea91591&oe=5B4E6274
https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13620905_126396171126973_7117117945240289280_n.jpg ?oh=b00c08eaad5f5b41c497c95f6cb40ea5&oe=5B2FAAD0
https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740378_650097688532853_5411865621395792844_n.jpg ?oh=fc835dfb5b60d042ccaaf8d073933717&oe=5B44DD78

[Sikeliot]

As for the phenotypical effects of North African score on southern Portuguese i'm the perfect example. It basically has nothing to do with how people might look like.

Suggesting otherwise is pure retardation.

Lighten up already, Moor boy.

[Leto]

I'm dying to see this Spaniard's DNA results, lol
http://teleprograma.diezminutos.es/var/plan_site/storage/images/famosos-television/2016/noviembre/jesus-calleja-novia-novio/11294629-1-esl-ES/jesus-calleja-mas-sincero-que-nunca-mis-parejas-son-efimeras_reference.jpg

[Sikeliot]

What is clear is that the thing pulling Iberians "south" genetically is North African input, since otherwise they are very much a French-like population with only minor Italian-like input. This confirms my contention that Iberians and Italians are not closely related.

[Damião de Góis]

Too much Atlantic influence.
Try these:


That's a Berid type. And who are those people? The second one looks brazilian.


Lighten up already, Moor boy.

Instead of searching for apparent mixed people to try to prove a point, you have me with results and pictures posted. I'm the case study you are looking for, in fact i'm the only one here from southern Portugal, the hotspot of moroccan phenotypes :laugh:

[Sikeliot]

Instead of searching for apparent mixed people to try to prove a point, you have me with results and pictures posted. I'm the case study you are looking for, in fact i'm the only one here from southern Portugal, the hotspot of moroccan phenotypes :laugh:


If I remember right you have high North African and SSA yourself.

[Damião de Góis]

If I remember right you have high North African and SSA yourself.

I do score higher north african than average. So which part of Morocco do you see me passing?

[ÁGUIA]

Partly my fault :noidea: I remember those times with some mildly nostalgia. I would come down from my foggy Northern lands, ridding on my horse and kidnapping some moor women, I would say please. Common practice specially at mondays and fridays when wi-fi connection was the poorest.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-twlus1GM970/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABI/w5GlnG5975w/s640/photo.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I do score higher north african than average. So which part of Morocco do you see me passing?

Just because you do not fit doesn't mean some people don't show some similarities.

[GiCa]

There is undobtly an Atlantic cluster, but actually it comprend also North African as in those genes pinpointed here, west med that remains the principal component of Iberia, an that labeled as North Atlantid (also principal component in Iberia)

The first two north African and west med are shared highly between Iberia, Maghreb and france, with north African component being shared only with Maghreb-Iberian with Iberians having it slightly, while French people not.

And North Atlantid wich is shared with Iberia, France, and british isles.

But west med thought i Don t understand if it s put inthe north Atlantic calculator.. If that s the case north Atlantic is fictional and just a component mix of West med plus North sea-scandinavia


west med as high in basque and Maghrebian like above 20% is the standard for both
This is really curious

[Damião de Góis]

Just because you do not fit doesn't mean some people don't show some similarities.

Even with my higher than average NA result? According to what you are saying this shouldn't make any sense. I should fit better than another iberian with a lower or no result... for example someone like Guardiola. He probably scores zero.

[Morena]

those soft hearted Portuguese. [emoji12]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aren]

What is clear is that the thing pulling Iberians "south" genetically is North African input, since otherwise they are very much a French-like population with only minor Italian-like input. This confirms my contention that Iberians and Italians are not closely related.

Again no, it's not that easy and it's definitely not just the North African that shifts them away from the French. The French have a much higher Steppe/Indo-European input(Iberians at 29%, French at 42% Scandos at 51%). You can't model Iberians as France + some North African. You need decent chunk of extra ENF(ie Sardinian-like).

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

@Endovélico

Sugiro que não dês resposta porque esta thread vai estar cheia de gente com as suas agendas pessoais, e muitos pouco ou nada de genética percebem. A maioria não leu o estudo e os que leram estão a distorcer os dados que foram apresentados e a tirar as próprias conclusões de forma a encaixar no que acreditam.

Acho piada à euforia de membros como a Gica mesmo sabendo que os Italianos ou qualquer outro Europeu do Sul continua a estar geneticamente mais próximo dos Magrebinos, Judeus e indivíduos do Médio-Oriente do que nós.

Isto é um estudo focado em Espanhóis onde foram usadas mais de 1400 amostras genéticas de várias regiões de Espanha contra 117 amostras de Portugueses onde foram usados menos SNPs ("in a complementary analysis that included Portugal, although fewer SNPs [Methods]"), mas estou a ver que as conclusões que estão a tirar giram todas à volta de Portugal apesar de nós sermos apenas um complemento do estudo, lol.

O Sikeliot também usou uma mapa\figura que vinha no estudo para "provar" que os Portugueses são os mais berberes, apesar de estar bem explicito na legenda que não tinham qualquer dado acerca das localizações geográficas das amostras Portuguesas e consequentemente colocaram os dots Portugueses aleatoriamente no mapa e coloriram o nosso país todo da mesma cor por não terem dados de variações geográficas. Ah, pois, essa parte ele não meteu porque não interessa...

O estudo também não trás nada de novo, já sabíamos que que os Galegos e Portugueses tinham mais genomas do noroeste de áfrica, apesar de não ser uma diferença substancial comparativamente ao resto da península, exceptuando o país Basco.

O que o estudo afirma no entanto é que essas mesmas regiões com maior incidência (Astúrias e Galiza) são regiões que não foram conquistadas pelos Mouros. Está explicito no paper que os territórios a norte do rio Minho nunca foram conquistados e os territórios acima do rio Douro foram reconquistados no ano de 741 (portanto um domínio Mourisco de poucos anos na região). Há especulação que possa ter havido migrações internas posteriores (pseudo-história?) mas acho que vai contra os dados históricos que possuímos acerca da Reconquista; as migrações foram sempre no sentido Norte-Sul e não o inverso. É cedo para deduzir que a nossa ancestralidade norte-africana seja apenas e exclusivamente posterior à invasão.

[ÁGUIA]

Oh the commotion!!!!
Portuguese have North African input! Hurray let's throw some fire works!!! What!? no way Portuguese have NA input.
Who even cares, so much investment ... Moors, sub saharan Africans, Irish, Pakistani or whatever are just populations. Just people like everybody else nothing to celebrate or be sad about it, nothing to feel better or worse about it. Guess what ? people move, people fuck, people make war :thumb001:

[GiCa]

This guy is Sardinian, and is what i consider THE berid.. Because this look can t be found in mainland Italy.
Sardinian have the highest west med in Europe, but anyone knows if they have considerable Saharid-north African too?

Look at him, i d guess him only portuguese outside of Sardinia. He has an I between North Africa South Europe look

https://images.vanityfair.it/Storage/Assets/Crops/296310/59/186592/marco-carta-VF-12-2012_325x325.jpg

Same for this other sardinian guy
https://net-storage.tccstatic.com/storage/tuttoc.com/img_notizie/thumb1/b9/b914f254ef721bcc5ea541eefb300ef8-53399-32a210d47627e72463d4e74ef876549b.jpeg

[Aren]

There is undobtly an Atlantic cluster, but actually it comprend also North African as in those genes pinpointed here, west med that remains the principal component of Iberia, an that labeled as North Atlantid (also principal component in Iberia)

The first two north African and west med are shared highly between Iberia, Maghreb and france, with north African component being shared only with Maghreb-Iberian with Iberians having it slightly, while French people not.

And North Atlantid wich is shared with Iberia, France, and british isles.

But west med thought i Don t understand if it s put inthe north Atlantic calculator.. If that s the case north Atlantic is fictional and just a component mix of West med plus North sea-scandinavia


west med as high in basque and Maghrebian like above 20% is the standard for both
This is really curious

What is curious is you not mentioning Italians here since all Italians and especially North-Central Italians score higher West Med than the French, with the exception of Gascons.

[GiCa]

What is curious is you not mentioning Italians here since all Italians and especially North-Central Italians score higher West Med than the French, with the exception of Gascons.

No, South French score more of it.

And those who score it the highest are basques, Sardinians and maghrebians

[Damião de Góis]

@Endovélico

Sugiro que não dês resposta porque esta thread vai estar cheia de gente com as suas agendas pessoais, e muitos pouco ou nada de genética percebem. A maioria não leu o estudo e os que leram estão a distorcer os dados que foram apresentados e a tirar as próprias conclusões de forma a encaixar no que acreditam.

Acho piada à euforia de membros como a Gica mesmo sabendo que os Italianos ou qualquer outro Europeu do Sul continua a estar geneticamente mais próximo dos Magrebinos e indivíduos do Médio-Oriente do que nós.

Isto é um estudo focado em Espanhóis onde foram usadas mais de 1400 amostras genéticas de várias regiões de Espanha contra 117 amostras de Portugueses onde foram usados menos SNPs ("in a complementary analysis that included Portugal, although fewer SNPs [Methods]"), mas estou a ver que as conclusões que estão a tirar giram todas à volta de Portugal apesar de nós sermos apenas um complemento do estudo, lol.

O Sikeliot também usou uma mapa\figura que vinha no estudo para "provar" que os Portugueses são os mais berberes, apesar de estar bem explicito na legenda que não tinham qualquer dado acerca das localizações geográficas das amostras Portuguesas e consequentemente colocaram os dots Portugueses aleatoriamente no mapa e coloriram o nosso país todo da mesma cor por não terem dados de variações geográficas. Ah, pois, essa parte ele não meteu porque não interessa...

O estudo também não trás nada de novo, já sabíamos que que os Galegos e Portugueses tinham mais genomas do noroeste de áfrica, apesar de não ser uma diferença substancial comparativamente ao resto da península, exceptuando o país Basco.

O que o estudo afirma no entanto é que essas mesmas regiões com maior incidência (Astúrias e Galiza) são regiões que não foram conquistadas pelos Mouros. Está explicito no paper que os territórios a norte do rio Minho nunca foram conquistados e os territórios acima do rio Douro foram reconquistados no ano de 741 (portanto um domínio Mourisco de poucos anos na região). Há especulação que possa ter havido migrações internas posteriores (pseudo-história?) mas acho que vai contra os dados históricos que possuímos acerca da Reconquista; as migrações foram sempre no sentido Norte-Sul e não o inverso. É cedo para deduzir que a nossa ancestralidade norte-africana seja apenas e exclusivamente posterior à invasão.

Não me estás a dizer nada de novo, já tive esta discussão antes. Mas isto aqui é o Dia da Marmota periodicamente.

[Aren]

No, South French score more of it.

And those who score it the highest are basques, Sardinians and maghrebians

That's what I said, other than Southwestern French all Italians score higher West Med and North Italians score about the same as Spaniards and Portuguese and higher than North Africans. So you share it with Maghrebis too.

[Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda]

My K13's results : we can notice that Andalucia, Galicia, Portugal and Extremadura are a bit higher than the others Iberian population in my mixed model :

https://i.imgur.com/JnI4OO8.jpg

Anyways, I think that the overlap is much older than Islamic conquests, as there has been a very intensive "ethnic" cleansing during the Reconquista. Don't forget moreover that Islamized Iberians were the bulk of the Andalusi population - Berbers were a minority. Important minority but still a minority. Maybe 20% ?

During the Phoenician Era, Northern Morocco and Southern Spain had strong ties : Lixus and Gades were something like twin-cities.
Furthermore, it's known that several Moor tribes have settled in Hispania during the Roman Era. Note also that Romanized Moors lived in Hispania's cities.

[Leto]

I do score higher north african than average. So which part of Morocco do you see me passing?
Can you share your K13 results? I'm just curious.

[Damião de Góis]

My K13's results : we can notice that Andalucia, Galicia, Portugal and Extremadura are a bit higher than the others Iberian population in my mixed model :

https://i.imgur.com/JnI4OO8.jpg


Actually you score lower distances with other regions. Your top result is even with basques.


Can you share your K13 results? I'm just curious.

My results are all over the forum on several runs. I think they should not be hard to find if you are so curious.

[GiCa]

Acho piada à euforia de membros como a Gica mesmo sabendo que os Italianos ou qualquer outro Europeu do Sul continua a estar geneticamente mais próximo dos Magrebinos, Judeus e indivíduos do Médio-Oriente do que nós.

You are more near to North Africans than us.. Summing your West med plus North Africa score

That s simple math

This is for the genes.

If you want to consider also Geography, you are in that too more near to North Africa than us to them

[alnortedelsur]

Too much Atlantic influence.
Try these:

https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14212618_1009469729151358_6705053827337478907_n.jp g?oh=37eab63c08e70a94d10e36e91ea91591&oe=5B4E6274
https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13620905_126396171126973_7117117945240289280_n.jpg ?oh=b00c08eaad5f5b41c497c95f6cb40ea5&oe=5B2FAAD0
https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740378_650097688532853_5411865621395792844_n.jpg ?oh=fc835dfb5b60d042ccaaf8d073933717&oe=5B44DD78

They don't look full Portuguese at all.

[Sikeliot]

You are more near to North Africans than us.. Summing your West med plus North Africa score

That s simple math

This is for the genes.

If you want to consider also Geography, you are in that too more near to North Africa than us to them


The East Med in North Africans causes their composite ancestry to be closer to Sicily than to North Africa, even if there was more direct gene flow from North Africa to Iberia.

[GiCa]

The East Med in North Africans causes their composite ancestry to be closer to Sicily than to North Africa, even if there was more direct gene flow from North Africa to Iberia.

What do you think of the high west med In Maghreb, Sardinia, basque, and Iberia?

How much is different west med to North African and to Atlantid?

Are Atlantid and North Africa components that are fictional? Because if I m Not wrong they are made of West med.

[alnortedelsur]

You are more near to North Africans than us.. Summing your West med plus North Africa score

That s simple math

This is for the genes.

If you want to consider also Geography, you are in that too more near to North Africa than us to them

Check where Iberians plot and where Italians plot, and cut already with your shit.

[Mingle]

What is clear is that the thing pulling Iberians "south" genetically is North African input, since otherwise they are very much a French-like population with only minor Italian-like input. This confirms my contention that Iberians and Italians are not closely related.

Iberians, Southern Frenchmen, and North Italians all form a cluster together though. Don't they?

[Aren]

What do you think of the high west med In Maghreb, Sardinia, basque, and Iberia?

How much is different west med to North African and to Atlantid?

Are Atlantid and North Africa components that are fictional? Because if I m Not wrong they are made of West med.

And the high West Med in Italians, especially North italians?

[GiCa]

And the high West Med in Italians, especially North italians?

North Italians have it not as high as in sardinian, basques, maghrebians and iberians.

[Sikeliot]

Iberians, Southern Frenchmen, and North Italians all form a cluster together though. Don't they?

With variation. Iberians drifting toward North Africa, French toward Germany/UK/Ireland, and North Italians toward the rest of Italy, Balkans (due to higher Caucasus).

[Mingle]

With variation. Iberians drifting toward North Africa, French toward Germany/UK/Ireland, and North Italians toward the rest of Italy, Balkans (due to higher Caucasus).

But it's still the same cluster, so I don't really think it's fair to say that Iberians and Italians are genetically distant, at least in regards to North Italians.

[Aren]

North Italians have it not as high as in sardinian, basques, maghrebians and iberians.

Wrong again

Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 28.51666667
North_Italian 25.75666667
Moroccan 25.31666667
Portuguese 25.34
Tuscan 23.78666667

Only Basques and Sardinians got it higher, but Iberians, Moroccans and North Italians about them same.

[GiCa]

Wrong again

Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 28.51666667
North_Italian 25.75666667
Moroccan 25.31666667
Portuguese 25.34
Tuscan 23.78666667

Only Basques and Sardinians got it higher, but Iberians, Moroccans and North Italians about them same.

Source? I have different ratio of that study

[GiCa]

Anyway probably this North African is something distinct of West med. Otherwise this study should not have it calculated. Or maybe north Africa is west med plus subsaharian
I wonder where is the peak of northafrican

[Aren]

Source? I have different ratio of that study

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oz6P5-SVEJciPX1TciGe-zoqA5JtOGIMG7nh-rCOj0c/edit#gid=804264822

[Leto]

Let's throw some stuff in. A Brazilian old lady with grandparents from Italy (Mantova, Reggio Emilia, Padova and Lucca):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 27.62
2 East_Med 24.14
3 West_Med 23.64
4 Baltic 11.61
5 West_Asian 8.86
6 Red_Sea 2.41
7 Oceanian 0.61
8 Northeast_African 0.57
9 East_Asian 0.53

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 2.46
2 North_Italian 5.92
3 West_Sicilian 8.41
4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.95
5 Greek_Thessaly 9.56
6 Central_Greek 12.24
7 East_Sicilian 12.68
8 Bulgarian 13.93
9 South_Italian 13.95
10 Portuguese 14.27
11 Spanish_Extremadura 14.32
12 Romanian 14.38
13 Spanish_Andalucia 15.03
14 Spanish_Murcia 15.17
15 Ashkenazi 15.27
16 Spanish_Valencia 15.53
17 Spanish_Galicia 15.73
18 Spanish_Cataluna 16.17
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.4
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 17.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% North_Italian + 27.1% Ashkenazi @ 1.83
2 95.4% Tuscan + 4.6% South_Polish @ 1.88
3 95.6% Tuscan + 4.4% Ukrainian @ 1.89
4 93.9% Tuscan + 6.1% Hungarian @ 1.9
5 94.4% Tuscan + 5.6% Croatian @ 1.91
6 94.5% Tuscan + 5.5% East_German @ 1.92
7 96% Tuscan + 4% Polish @ 1.93
8 91.8% Tuscan + 8.2% Serbian @ 1.93
9 96.2% Tuscan + 3.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.93
10 94.1% Tuscan + 5.9% Austrian @ 1.94
11 96.7% Tuscan + 3.3% Lithuanian @ 1.94
12 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.94
13 96.6% Tuscan + 3.4% Estonian @ 1.94
14 96.1% Tuscan + 3.9% Southwest_Russian @ 1.94
15 96.7% Tuscan + 3.3% La_Brana-1 @ 1.94
16 94.1% Tuscan + 5.9% Moldavian @ 1.95
17 96.4% Tuscan + 3.6% Belorussian @ 1.95
18 90.5% Tuscan + 9.5% Romanian @ 1.95
19 96.4% Tuscan + 3.6% Estonian_Polish @ 1.95
20 95.7% Tuscan + 4.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.96

I don't have the kit number, it's from another forum.

[Sebastianus Rex]

So basically, you go from being like a very ancient French population in the Basque country, to being a French population with minor Tuscan-like admixture in eastern Spain, to being progressively admixed with Berber admixture and a decrease in the French component (which still predominates) in western Spain and Portugal.

It is therefore entirely common sense to suggest that, as I long have, Portuguese show more phenotypical North African influence than do the Spanish overall, because it is nearly 1/8 of their ancestry. You CAN look like a great grandparent, and 1/8 of ancestry can show.

how is it 1/8 of the ancestry if Portuguese autosomal averages are in the 7% range for NA?

2. This BS study and maps basically sustains that south Spain was resettled by Basques while doesnt provide an explanation for Galicia having higher NA, when it is known that historically was not under moorish occupation. They just theorize it was due to a migration flow from PT to Galicia (wich is not documented historically and contradicts the fact that Portugal had lesser and shorter Moorish presence and contradicts higher NA markers found among Asturians who were never under Moorish occupation and have high basque dna). No migration waves between Portugal and Asturias can be theorized to save their ass in that case.

3. Obviously for domeone who knows in loco the Iberian Peninsula knows that if there is any detectable genetic cline it is between the far south (particularly Andalucia) and the rest (altough around big cities internal migration diluted this reality), not at all between the west and east. One just needs to stop being an anthrotard and actually travel to the places they write so many rubbish about, go to Galicia and Andalucia and see for yourself.

[GiCa]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?210030-Moorish-Invasion-and-Its-Genetic-Contribution-in-Iberia

Some already predicted it overestimating it a bit

[Sebastianus Rex]

Also, on GEDMatch, Portuguese often can be modeled as Spanish + 10-12% North African. This is no coincidence.

I also think the so called "Berid" phenotype in Iberia is a reflection of this North African influence.

How can the Portuguese be modeled like that (whatever those arbitrary models mean) if no Portuguese individual scored that much autosomal NA. Likewise you should say that a Spaniard (or better saying a Galician, since according to anthrotard world they are more NA than Andalucians or Murcians) could be modeled as Portuguese plus x% NA. Goes both ways if you like those models...

[Insuperable]

Wasn't there a research a few years ago which dated north African admixture 80 generations back or so, during Roman Empire? What changed?

[RN97]

What is clear is that the thing pulling Iberians "south" genetically is North African input, since otherwise they are very much a French-like population with only minor Italian-like input. This confirms my contention that Iberians and Italians are not closely related.

Bro, your retardation with "pulls" and PCA/ ADMIXTURE obsessions are just stupid. Hurr durr, what pulls French from Irish is the Palestinian input hurr durr. It's not really that simple to deduce. First of all minor differences are hard to detect by PCA's and I don't have faith that ADMIXTURE works to detect such minor differences as has been claimed by geneticists (not very accurately at least), like Italian in Iberians, Irish in Norwegians etc. SSA/ east Asian in Europeans? Okay ADMIXTURE will yield a fairly accurate result, but this is just BS. What if the admixture analysis revolved around.... Heck, Romanian and Basque? I'm sure Iberians would then show their "Romanian and Basque" admixture...... Unless you prove it with haplogroups or IBD, I don't buy this ADMIXTURE retardism.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Berid looks to me like an intermediate standard south Europe med typology with Saharid north African typology.

Intermediate

Berid/paleo sardinian/coarse med was identified by most anthropologists who recognized that specific type (such as Biasutti, Cipriani, Lundman etc) as being not common in the Iberian Peninsula and more rare in the west/Portugal. That type identified as more common in Sardinia, Sicily and south Italy, Greek islands as well as in southwest France and parts of Anatolia. Once again people dont know what they talk about...

[FilhoV]

WE WUZ KANGZ N SHIET

[GiCa]

Berid/paleo sardinian/coarse med was identified by most anthropologists who recognized that specific type (such as Biasutti, Cipriani, Lundman etc) as being not common in the Iberian Peninsula and more rare in the west/Portugal. That type identified as more common in Sardinia, Sicily and south Italy, Greek islands as well as in southwest France and parts of Anatolia. Once again people dont know what they talk about...

Where is the source of that? Berid..( Anyway types are not scientific) was linked with Sardinia, Portugal and Spain.


Anyway theese fights are pointless and annoying.

Nobody is pure. And the concept of european look or Not is very ridiculous.

If you are very interested the same west med is not an exclusive European phenotype as is euro-maghrebi in reality. And in real life people care 0 about genetic

Anyway i agree that those genes, North African, entered with the conquest. There is no other possible explanation given the way they are geographically spread.
As we know that Portugal kingdom never expelled the rulers of Islam.

This percentage 10,92% is the average for the highest place with North African genes: North Portugal that tganks to this study we know that historically allowed near to 10-11% of those Arab Kingdom rulers to stay. Probably Portugal was more tolerant, or probably.. More like there those people integrated more and didn t have a dangerous behaviour-mentality like we see instead today with what happened in Europe.

I m glad that Spanish kingdom expelled them if they behaved like those that today to attacks in Europe, and I m glad that instead Portugal allowed them to stay probably because only there they behaved goodly and were not dangerous.

[Leto]

WE WUZ KANGZ N SHIET

http://www.fantascienza.com/imgbank/splash/NEWS/ancient-aliens-pyramid-hd-wallpaper.jpg

[FilhoV]

http://www.fantascienza.com/imgbank/splash/NEWS/ancient-aliens-pyramid-hd-wallpaper.jpg

Just uttering those five words puts a smile on my face

[Percivalle]

Let's throw some stuff in. A Brazilian old lady with grandparents from Italy (Mantova, Reggio Emilia, Padova and Lucca):

Those results were posted in a forum, and it would better to say, posted by someone who claims that his grandmother has grandparents from those 4 different cities. Very strange that combination for someone of his generation.

Anyway, these are results of people who were born in Italy, with all 4 grandparents from the same province, and ancestry checked with family tree:


Lucca (Tuscany, central Italy)


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 29.48
2 West_Med 25.85
3 East_Med 20.83
4 Baltic 10.88
5 West_Asian 8.81
6 Red_Sea 2.84
7 South_Asian 0.77
8 Oceanian 0.52

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 2.94
2 Tuscan 4.54
3 West_Sicilian 11.12
4 Spanish_Extremadura 11.19
5 Portuguese 11.54
6 Italian_Abruzzo 11.56
7 Spanish_Andalucia 11.75
8 Greek_Thessaly 12.26
9 Spanish_Murcia 12.4
10 Spanish_Valencia 12.62
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.74
12 Spanish_Cataluna 13.35
13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 13.6
14 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.82
15 Central_Greek 14.98
16 East_Sicilian 15.46
17 Romanian 15.48
18 Bulgarian 15.55
19 Spanish_Cantabria 15.65
20 Spanish_Aragon 16.48




Parma (north Italy, same region of Reggio-Emilia)



# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 29.1
2 West_Med 23.01
3 East_Med 22.15
4 Baltic 13.29
5 West_Asian 7.39
6 Red_Sea 2.65
7 South_Asian 1.49
8 Oceanian 0.61
9 East_Asian 0.33

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 4.31
2 Tuscan 4.63
3 Greek_Thessaly 10.55
4 West_Sicilian 11
5 Italian_Abruzzo 11.33
6 Portuguese 12.19
7 Spanish_Extremadura 12.53
8 Romanian 13.03
9 Bulgarian 13.16
10 Spanish_Murcia 13.42
11 Spanish_Galicia 13.46
12 Spanish_Andalucia 13.62
13 Spanish_Valencia 13.64
14 Spanish_Cataluna 14.03
15 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.41
16 Central_Greek 14.57
17 East_Sicilian 15.04
18 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 15.3
19 Serbian 15.33
20 French 16.36



Belluno (Veneto, north Italy, same region of Padova)



Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 35.84
2 West_Med 20.31
3 Baltic 19.52
4 East_Med 13.54
5 West_Asian 6.39
6 Red_Sea 3.05
7 Oceanian 0.71
8 East_Asian 0.57
9 Northeast_African 0.08



Cuneo (Piedmont, North Italy)



# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 34.54
2 West_Med 23.07
3 East_Med 15.99
4 Baltic 15.94
5 West_Asian 6.65
6 Red_Sea 2.63
7 Oceanian 0.75
8 East_Asian 0.4
9 Northeast_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.91
2 Portuguese 7.35
3 Spanish_Galicia 8.3
4 Spanish_Cataluna 8.41
5 Spanish_Extremadura 8.51
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.25
7 Spanish_Murcia 9.31
8 Spanish_Valencia 9.38
9 French 9.4
10 Spanish_Andalucia 10.2
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.71
12 Tuscan 11.36
13 Spanish_Cantabria 11.44
14 Southwest_French 12.52
15 Spanish_Aragon 13.47
16 Romanian 13.61
17 West_German 13.78
18 Serbian 13.86
19 South_Dutch 14.46
20 Bulgarian 15.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% Swedish @ 1.09
2 82.9% North_Italian + 17.1% North_Swedish @ 1.38
3 78.9% North_Italian + 21.1% North_German @ 1.42
4 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% Norwegian @ 1.46
5 70.5% North_Italian + 29.5% West_German @ 1.48
6 64.6% Spanish_Cataluna + 35.4% Bulgarian @ 1.5
7 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% North_Dutch @ 1.56
8 71.7% North_Italian + 28.3% South_Dutch @ 1.62
9 50.3% Spanish_Aragon + 49.7% Romanian @ 1.62
10 80.1% North_Italian + 19.9% Danish @ 1.68
11 53% Spanish_Aragon + 47% Bulgarian @ 1.77
12 74.1% North_Italian + 25.9% Austrian @ 1.78
13 59.5% Spanish_Valencia + 40.5% Romanian @ 1.82
14 76.7% North_Italian + 23.3% East_German @ 1.88
15 57.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 42.2% Serbian @ 1.9
16 56.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 43.9% Romanian @ 1.92
17 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% Orcadian @ 1.93
18 62.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 37.8% Romanian @ 1.96
19 80.7% North_Italian + 19.3% Irish @ 2.03
20 78.2% North_Italian + 21.8% Southeast_English @ 2.05

[Percivalle]

Where is the source of that? Berid..( Anyway types are not scientific) was linked with Sardinia, Portugal and Spain.


Anyway theese fights are pointless and annoying.

Nobody is pure. And the concept of european look or Not is very ridiculous.

If you are very interested the same west med is not an exclusive European phenotype as is euro-maghrebi in reality. And in real life people care 0 about genetic

Anyway i agree that those genes, North African, entered with the conquest. There is no other possible explanation given the way they are geographically spread.
As we know that Portugal kingdom never expelled the rulers of Islam.

You should really start to read something about genetics.

North Africa received migrations from Neolithic Europe. So it's quite obvious that they have high west med, it's also due to these migrations from Southwestern Europe.

[Leto]

Those results were posted in a forum, and it would better to say, posted by someone who claims that his grandmother has grandparents from those 4 different cities. Well, if you ask me, very strange that combination for someone of his generation.

Why are you suspicious? The results are clearly 100% Italian and as you know Brazil has a lot of Italian descendants. That was the guy's grandmother. He posted the Eurogenes results by request actually, after he shared her FTDNA ancestry composition.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Where is the source of that? Berid..( Anyway types are not scientific) was linked with Sardinia, Portugal and Spain.


Anyway theese fights are pointless and annoying.

Nobody is pure. And the concept of european look or Not is very ridiculous.

If you are very interested the same west med is not an exclusive European phenotype as is euro-maghrebi in reality. And in real life people care 0 about genetic

the source is anthropologists, some even Italian, searvh for those works on the internet, dont be lazy.

West med component peaks among european populations, you are confused. On the other hand the East med component peaks in the Arabian Peninsula and around.

[Leto]

Cuneo (Piedmont, North Italy)

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 34.54
2 West_Med 23.07
3 East_Med 15.99
4 Baltic 15.94
5 West_Asian 6.65
6 Red_Sea 2.63
7 Oceanian 0.75
8 East_Asian 0.4
9 Northeast_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.91
2 Portuguese 7.35
3 Spanish_Galicia 8.3
4 Spanish_Cataluna 8.41
5 Spanish_Extremadura 8.51
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.25
7 Spanish_Murcia 9.31
8 Spanish_Valencia 9.38
9 French 9.4
10 Spanish_Andalucia 10.2
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.71
12 Tuscan 11.36
13 Spanish_Cantabria 11.44
14 Southwest_French 12.52
15 Spanish_Aragon 13.47
16 Romanian 13.61
17 West_German 13.78
18 Serbian 13.86
19 South_Dutch 14.46
20 Bulgarian 15.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% Swedish @ 1.09
2 82.9% North_Italian + 17.1% North_Swedish @ 1.38
3 78.9% North_Italian + 21.1% North_German @ 1.42
4 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% Norwegian @ 1.46
5 70.5% North_Italian + 29.5% West_German @ 1.48
6 64.6% Spanish_Cataluna + 35.4% Bulgarian @ 1.5
7 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% North_Dutch @ 1.56
8 71.7% North_Italian + 28.3% South_Dutch @ 1.62
9 50.3% Spanish_Aragon + 49.7% Romanian @ 1.62
10 80.1% North_Italian + 19.9% Danish @ 1.68
11 53% Spanish_Aragon + 47% Bulgarian @ 1.77
12 74.1% North_Italian + 25.9% Austrian @ 1.78
13 59.5% Spanish_Valencia + 40.5% Romanian @ 1.82
14 76.7% North_Italian + 23.3% East_German @ 1.88
15 57.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 42.2% Serbian @ 1.9
16 56.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 43.9% Romanian @ 1.92
17 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% Orcadian @ 1.93
18 62.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 37.8% Romanian @ 1.96
19 80.7% North_Italian + 19.3% Irish @ 2.03
20 78.2% North_Italian + 21.8% Southeast_English @ 2.05

Very Northern. As if partially German. No wonder Sikeliot ignores those regions altogether, he has a distaste for everything north of Naples, Greece and Spain. :lol:

[Sikeliot]

Very Northern. As if partially German. No wonder Sikeliot ignores those regions altogether, he has a distaste for everything north of Naples, Greece and Spain. :lol:

No, it is that I have no knowledge of those areas.

[Bobby Martnen]

Are North and South Italians really the same ethnic group? That's a question worth asking...

[Aren]

Those results were posted in a forum, and it would better to say, posted by someone who claims that his grandmother has grandparents from those 4 different cities. Very strange that combination for someone of his generation.

Anyway, these are results of people who were born in Italy, with all 4 grandparents from the same province, and ancestry checked with family tree:


Lucca (Tuscany, central Italy)


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 29.48
2 West_Med 25.85
3 East_Med 20.83
4 Baltic 10.88
5 West_Asian 8.81
6 Red_Sea 2.84
7 South_Asian 0.77
8 Oceanian 0.52

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 2.94
2 Tuscan 4.54
3 West_Sicilian 11.12
4 Spanish_Extremadura 11.19
5 Portuguese 11.54
6 Italian_Abruzzo 11.56
7 Spanish_Andalucia 11.75
8 Greek_Thessaly 12.26
9 Spanish_Murcia 12.4
10 Spanish_Valencia 12.62
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.74
12 Spanish_Cataluna 13.35
13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 13.6
14 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.82
15 Central_Greek 14.98
16 East_Sicilian 15.46
17 Romanian 15.48
18 Bulgarian 15.55
19 Spanish_Cantabria 15.65
20 Spanish_Aragon 16.48




Parma (north Italy, same region of Reggio-Emilia)



# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 29.1
2 West_Med 23.01
3 East_Med 22.15
4 Baltic 13.29
5 West_Asian 7.39
6 Red_Sea 2.65
7 South_Asian 1.49
8 Oceanian 0.61
9 East_Asian 0.33

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 4.31
2 Tuscan 4.63
3 Greek_Thessaly 10.55
4 West_Sicilian 11
5 Italian_Abruzzo 11.33
6 Portuguese 12.19
7 Spanish_Extremadura 12.53
8 Romanian 13.03
9 Bulgarian 13.16
10 Spanish_Murcia 13.42
11 Spanish_Galicia 13.46
12 Spanish_Andalucia 13.62
13 Spanish_Valencia 13.64
14 Spanish_Cataluna 14.03
15 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.41
16 Central_Greek 14.57
17 East_Sicilian 15.04
18 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 15.3
19 Serbian 15.33
20 French 16.36



Belluno (Veneto, north Italy, same region of Padova)



Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 35.84
2 West_Med 20.31
3 Baltic 19.52
4 East_Med 13.54
5 West_Asian 6.39
6 Red_Sea 3.05
7 Oceanian 0.71
8 East_Asian 0.57
9 Northeast_African 0.08



Cuneo (Piedmont, North Italy)



# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 34.54
2 West_Med 23.07
3 East_Med 15.99
4 Baltic 15.94
5 West_Asian 6.65
6 Red_Sea 2.63
7 Oceanian 0.75
8 East_Asian 0.4
9 Northeast_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.91
2 Portuguese 7.35
3 Spanish_Galicia 8.3
4 Spanish_Cataluna 8.41
5 Spanish_Extremadura 8.51
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.25
7 Spanish_Murcia 9.31
8 Spanish_Valencia 9.38
9 French 9.4
10 Spanish_Andalucia 10.2
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.71
12 Tuscan 11.36
13 Spanish_Cantabria 11.44
14 Southwest_French 12.52
15 Spanish_Aragon 13.47
16 Romanian 13.61
17 West_German 13.78
18 Serbian 13.86
19 South_Dutch 14.46
20 Bulgarian 15.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% Swedish @ 1.09
2 82.9% North_Italian + 17.1% North_Swedish @ 1.38
3 78.9% North_Italian + 21.1% North_German @ 1.42
4 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% Norwegian @ 1.46
5 70.5% North_Italian + 29.5% West_German @ 1.48
6 64.6% Spanish_Cataluna + 35.4% Bulgarian @ 1.5
7 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% North_Dutch @ 1.56
8 71.7% North_Italian + 28.3% South_Dutch @ 1.62
9 50.3% Spanish_Aragon + 49.7% Romanian @ 1.62
10 80.1% North_Italian + 19.9% Danish @ 1.68
11 53% Spanish_Aragon + 47% Bulgarian @ 1.77
12 74.1% North_Italian + 25.9% Austrian @ 1.78
13 59.5% Spanish_Valencia + 40.5% Romanian @ 1.82
14 76.7% North_Italian + 23.3% East_German @ 1.88
15 57.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 42.2% Serbian @ 1.9
16 56.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 43.9% Romanian @ 1.92
17 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% Orcadian @ 1.93
18 62.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 37.8% Romanian @ 1.96
19 80.7% North_Italian + 19.3% Irish @ 2.03
20 78.2% North_Italian + 21.8% Southeast_English @ 2.05


You're cherry picking clearly. All of your samples are more northern shifted than region they are from.

[Leto]

No, it is that I have no knowledge of those areas.
After having spent like 7 years on anthroforums you don't even know the country of ITALY? Lol. For some reason you know Greece much better, although you don't have (recent) Greek ancestry. Not that I can dictate you, but in my opinion you're way too focused on the provinces of Sicily and that's not even a proper country but an island region of a country. I mean I'm myself mainly interested in East/Northeast Europe and certain areas adjacent or historically connected thereto, but that's a huge swath of land with like 200+ million people. In Russia one small oblast (region) is larger than the whole of Sicily.

[Percivalle]

Why are you suspicious? The results are clearly 100% Italian and as you know Brazil has a lot of Italian descendants. That was the guy's grandmother. He posted the Eurogenes results by request actually, after he shared her FTDNA ancestry composition.

You probably did not understand or I probably did not explain myself. I'm not saying she is not 100% Italian, I'm saying that her cities of origin could be not completely accurate (which happens very often, however).

The results of the old Brazilian lady (who is according to him 3/4 north Italian + 1/4 central Italian from Lucca)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 27.62
2 East_Med 24.14
3 West_Med 23.64
4 Baltic 11.61
5 West_Asian 8.86
6 Red_Sea 2.41
7 Oceanian 0.61
8 Northeast_African 0.57
9 East_Asian 0.53

are very similar to the results of someone who is 100% from Lucca, so 100% central Italian. Even better in a PCA the one from Lucca could perhaps even plot a little further north. That's it.




Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 29.48
2 West_Med 25.85
3 East_Med 20.83
4 Baltic 10.88
5 West_Asian 8.81
6 Red_Sea 2.84
7 South_Asian 0.77
8 Oceanian 0.52



Very Northern. As if partially German.

100% native from there, it has a very detailed geneaological tree that goes far back in time.

[GiCa]

Are North and South Italians really the same ethnic group? That's a question worth asking...

The question we italian have always asked ourself is that if they are of our same culture? In some-many ways they are not.

But that s offtopic

[Sikeliot]

After having spent like 7 years on anthroforums you don't even know the country of ITALY? Lol. For some reason you know Greece much better, although you don't have (recent) Greek ancestry. Not that I can dictate you, but in my opinion you're way too focused on the provinces of Sicily and that's not even a proper country but an island region of a country. I mean I'm myself mainly interested in East/Northeast Europe and certain areas adjacent or historically connected thereto, but that's a huge swath of land with like 200+ million people. In Russia one small oblast (region) is larger than the whole of Sicily.

I don't view north Italians as the same ethnicity as Sicilians. I only know about Rome southward.

[Aren]

The lady you posted seems well within the norm for someone that's 25% Tuscan and 75% North Italian. A distance around 6 to the North Italian sample is not bad at all.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 27.62
2 East_Med 24.14
3 West_Med 23.64
4 Baltic 11.61
5 West_Asian 8.86
6 Red_Sea 2.41
7 Oceanian 0.61
8 Northeast_African 0.57
9 East_Asian 0.53

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 2.46
2 North_Italian 5.92
3 West_Sicilian 8.41
4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.95
5 Greek_Thessaly 9.56
6 Central_Greek 12.24
7 East_Sicilian 12.68
8 Bulgarian 13.93
9 South_Italian 13.95
10 Portuguese 14.27
11 Spanish_Extremadura 14.32
12 Romanian 14.38
13 Spanish_Andalucia 15.03
14 Spanish_Murcia 15.17
15 Ashkenazi 15.27
16 Spanish_Valencia 15.53
17 Spanish_Galicia 15.73
18 Spanish_Cataluna 16.17
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.4
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 17.02

[Leto]

There is the country of Italy united by the same language, religion and history. Of course they are one nation. Sicilians are not a nation of their own.

[Leto]

I don't view north Italians as the same ethnicity as Sicilians. I only know about Rome southward.
Let's be frank. You DO NOT WANT to know.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

It decreases from Portugal to East.

This is instead a proof that it s from moorish rule as they, the portugueses didn t expell muslims

And that put undobtly Portugal as the main source for north African genes in your peninsula.

#PortugalNorthAfricaHotspot

It decreases from WESTERN Iberia to east. As the study states Galicia wasn't ruled by the Moors and yet Galicians have quite an amount of North African.

Perhaps you should allow serious posters to discuss the topic instead of using it as an opportunity to troll. If you want to troll then make a new thread. I'm tired of threads about genetic studies being ruined by the lowest common denominators.

[Sikeliot]

Let's be frank. You DO NOT WANT to know.

Well, it's more that I don't care. I am not of northern Italian descent, so I'll leave it to someone who is.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

This is what I have been saying -- variation in Iberia is east to west, rather than north to south.

I said that long before you. I've been saying it for years. The study is only interesting in some of the details. The rest is already known.

[Percivalle]

Are North and South Italians really the same ethnic group? That's a question worth asking...

This is a very silly comment, of course they are.

Aren't northern and southern Germans the same ethnic group?

[Leto]

Well, it's more that I don't care. I am not of northern Italian descent, so I'll leave it to someone who is.
Neither are you of Greek or Lebanese descent. Pontic Greeks and Cypriots who you disqualify as real Greeks are at least culturally Greek. You are a deracinated American of Sicilian, Portuguese and Polish origin + part God knows what else (your mom's results are not what I would expect from a real Pol/Port mix).

[Sikeliot]

This is a very silly comment, of course they are.

Aren't northern and southern Germans the same ethnic group?

North to south Italy is a greater degree of variation than north to southern Germany.

[Sikeliot]

Neither are you of Greek or Lebanese descent. Pontic Greeks and Cypriots who you disqualify as real Greeks are at least culturally Greek. You are a deracinated American of Sicilian, Portuguese and Polish origin + part God knows what else (your mom's results are not what I would expect from a real Pol/Port mix).

Well, that is what she is. What is your impression of her results then? Also I have 0 North Italian descent. I have no idea why you think I should think about them whatsoever.

Why are you being so antagonistic?

[Percivalle]

North to south Italy is a greater degree of variation than north to southern Germany.

Maybe true, but there is also a great variation from north to southern Germany.

[Sikeliot]

Maybe true, but there is also a great variation from north to southern Germany.

Far southern Italians are genetically similar to what we'd expect if someone was half northern Italian and half Levantine. That is a great deal of variation.

[B01AB20]

variation in Iberia is east to west, rather than north to south.

Íberos in mediterranean coastline, celtoids in center and west forward lands. That's the layout of population in Iberia 2000 years ago and the reason of that variation I guess.

What I find somewhat surprising is that that ancient layout has survived until nowadays, despite the moor invasion and the reconquista with the big population movements those facts involved.

[Mingle]

Very Northern. As if partially German. No wonder Sikeliot ignores those regions altogether, he has a distaste for everything north of Naples, Greece and Spain. :lol:

Most of his ancestry is from South Italy. He focuses on Greece cause Greeks are genetically near identical to South Italians. North Italy is a different ballgame.

You'll notice that he comments on Iberians sometimes even though they are significantly north of South Italians. It's cause he's part Portuguese.

[Mingle]

Are North and South Italians really the same ethnic group? That's a question worth asking...

If you want to divide Italian into different ethnic groups, then it would have to be a dozen different ethnic groups (Sicilian, Piedmontese, Venetian, Ligurian, etc) rather than only two (North Italian, South Italian). But it would be difficult to draw the line e.g. are people from Emilia-Romagna one ethnicity (Emilia-Romagnan) or two ethnicities (Emilian, Romagnan)?

[Aren]

I said that long before you. I've been saying it for years. The study is only interesting in some of the details. The rest is already known.

I didn't really get how they came to the conclusion that the North African influence entered Iberia around 800-1100 CE, ie with the Moors since Galicia was never part of the caliphate.

Here's something interesting though, just recently a new sample was added to Davidskis Global 25 PCA. A Roman soldier from Munich that plots with modern day Northern Iberians. He seems like he could be a modern day Northern Iberian and his North African influence is almost 0.

"distance%=2.0374"

Germany_Roman

Barcin_N,57.2
Yamnaya_Samara,28.8
WHG,13.2
Mozabite,0.8

And the modern Cantabrian sample in comparison.

"distance%=3.096"

Spanish_Cantabria

Barcin_N,54.4
Yamnaya_Samara,29.8
WHG,13.4
Mozabite,2.4

[Sikeliot]

Most of his ancestry is from South Italy. He focuses on Greece cause Greeks are genetically near identical to South Italians. North Italy is a different ballgame.

You'll notice that he comments on Iberians sometimes even though they are significantly north of South Italians. It's cause he's part Portuguese.

Yes, but I will correct you in that not all Greeks are the same as southern Italians. Mostly it is islanders and isolated Peloponnesians who are, which is again why I focus most on the island.s

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Notably, the extensive sub-structure in
Pontevedra disappears, and indeed these individuals now co-cluster with Portuguese
individuals.

Clearly a Portuguese government plot to take over Pontevedra.

Get my gun...

[Mingle]

There is the country of Italy united by the same language, religion and history. Of course they are one nation. Sicilians are not a nation of their own.

They aren't really united by language. The national language is based off the dialect in Florence. Most Italians have their own indigenous languages, though I'm not sure how common they are today.

Sicily isn't an outlier in Italy culturally, linguistically or genetically. The only true outlier would be South Tyrol since it's Germanic. Sardinia would be a genetic outlier.

[ÁGUIA]

I'm not into genetics, frankly I'm unlearned about it. But can someone explain me how the Northern part of Portugal, barely settled by moors does not show as it seem, big discrepancies genetic and certainly not phenotypically wise, in contrast with Algarve occupied for more than 5 centuries?
Makes more sense from a logic and historically perspective to be ancient, perchance already present in Galaecia and was spread as we expanded southwards during the Reconquista.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I didn't really get how they came to the conclusion that the North African influence entered Iberia around 800-1100 CE, ie with the Moors since Galicia was never part of the caliphate.

Here's something interesting though, just recently a new sample was added to Davidskis Global 25 PCA. A Roman soldier from Munich that plots with modern day Northern Iberians. He seems like he could be a modern day Northern Iberian and his North African influence is almost 0.

"distance%=2.0374"

Germany_Roman

Barcin_N,57.2
Yamnaya_Samara,28.8
WHG,13.2
Mozabite,0.8

And the modern Cantabrian sample in comparison.

"distance%=3.096"

Spanish_Cantabria

Barcin_N,54.4
Yamnaya_Samara,29.8
WHG,13.4
Mozabite,2.4

What are the results for Spanish_Navarra and Aragon?

[Óttar]

Hmm, so I guess the NA admixture among Iberians isn't ancient, is it? Good study nonetheless.
I wouldn't rule out Carthaginian influence. They were on the peninsula in ancient times.

[Leto]

Well, that is what she is. What is your impression of her results then?
I cannot find her kit number. If you give it to me now, I'll tell you.

Also I have 0 North Italian descent. I have no idea why you think I should think about them whatsoever.
Basically all Italians share certain components in varying proportions.


Why are you being so antagonistic?
Oh no, I'm not. Just trying to broaden your horizon. :)

[Mingle]

This is a very silly comment, of course they are.

Aren't northern and southern Germans the same ethnic group?

The modern definition of ethnic German is based on political boundaries. Saxons living in the Netherlands are considered ethnic Saxon, but Saxons living in Germany (North German is Saxon land) are considered ethnic German. Frisians living in the Netherlands are considered ethnic Frisian but Frisians living in Germany are considered ethnic German. Germans that natively speak a dialect of Dutch (Meuse-Rhenish) are considered ethnic German in Germany but ethnic Dutch in the Netherlands (and Flemish in Belgium).

[Leto]

They aren't really united by language. The national language is based off the dialect in Florence. Most Italians have their own indigenous languages, though I'm not sure how common they are today.

Sicily isn't an outlier in Italy culturally, linguistically or genetically. The only true outlier would be South Tyrol since it's Germanic. Sardinia would be a genetic outlier.
From what I know, all speak Italian nowadays. Those languages are considered 'dialects'.

[Leto]

The modern definition of ethnic German is based on political boundaries. Saxons living in the Netherlands are considered ethnic Saxon, but Saxons living in Germany (North German is Saxon land) are considered ethnic German. Frisians living in the Netherlands are considered ethnic Frisian but Frisians living in Germany are considered ethnic German. Germans that natively speak a dialect of Dutch (Meuse-Rhenish) are considered ethnic German in Germany but ethnic Dutch in the Netherlands (and Flemish in Belgium).
Dutch means Deutsch, actually.

[Mingle]

From what I know, all speak Italian nowadays. Those languages are considered 'dialects'.

At home, they speak their own languages (most do I think). But all can speak Italian as well.

Calling them dialects of Italian is a political move. If Sicilian is an Italian dialect, then Portuguese is a Spanish/Castilian dialect.

[Sikeliot]

They aren't really united by language. The national language is based off the dialect in Florence. Most Italians have their own indigenous languages, though I'm not sure how common they are today.

Sicily isn't an outlier in Italy culturally, linguistically or genetically. The only true outlier would be South Tyrol since it's Germanic. Sardinia would be a genetic outlier.

Sicily is part of the genetic cline in Italy and is close to Calabria and Malta, but this does not mean when you compare Sicily to Piedmont, the genetic difference is not as large as between Sicily and the Levant. It in fact is.

Culturally Sicily is southern Italian, similar to Calabria or Naples.

[Aren]

What are the results for Spanish_Navarra and Aragon?

There's no Navarra sample sadly. But some other northern Spanish regions

"distance%=3.1599"

Spanish_Aragon

Barcin_N,54.2
Yamnaya_Samara,29.4
WHG,12.8
Mozabite,3.4
Han,0.2

"distance%=4.2956"

Basque_Spanish

Barcin_N,55.6
Yamnaya_Samara,25
WHG,19.4

"distance%=4.1144"

Spanish_Pais_Vasco

Barcin_N,54.4
Yamnaya_Samara,28
WHG,17.6

[Cristiano viejo]

Yet none can post a single dna test of a random Spaniard that scores amount above 2-3%, true? :eyes

[Mingle]

Dutch means Deutsch, actually.

Yep. Dutch is an Anglicization of Deutsch. But Deutsch originally just meant Germanic. English had it's own cognate for Germanic before it died out. 'Dutch' was then later adopted in the Middle Ages to refer to Continental Germanics and then later to Netherlanders.

[Sikeliot]

I cannot find her kit number. If you give it to me now, I'll tell you.

Basically all Italians share certain components in varying proportions.

Oh no, I'm not. Just trying to broaden your horizon. :)

This is what she gets on Eurogenes k15:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 East_German @ 7.979558
2 Austrian @ 9.713646
3 Hungarian @ 12.033504
4 Croatian @ 12.457831
5 South_Dutch @ 13.471677
6 South_Polish @ 15.276759
7 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.400556
8 French @ 15.514329
9 Moldavian @ 15.580163
10 Serbian @ 15.709307
11 North_German @ 15.984626
12 Polish @ 16.235750
13 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 16.679478
14 Ukrainian @ 16.695625
15 West_German @ 17.275963
16 Southwest_English @ 17.848469
17 Finnish @ 18.341791
18 Southeast_English @ 18.802477
19 Russian_Smolensk @ 18.902643
20 Danish @ 18.986248

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Polish +50% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.452705

[Mingle]

Sicily is part of the genetic cline in Italy and is close to Calabria and Malta, but this does not mean when you compare Sicily to Piedmont, the genetic difference is not as large as between Sicily and the Levant. It in fact is.

Culturally Sicily is southern Italian, similar to Calabria or Naples.

True, I never denied there was a large difference. But Sicily can't be called an outlier if it's part of a cline. Sardinia isn't part of the cline so it can be considered a genetic outlier.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I knew this already but i just thought it was north to south. Surprised its west east.

[Sikeliot]

True, I never denied there was a large difference. But Sicily can't be called an outlier if it's part of a cline. Sardinia isn't part of the cline so it can be considered a genetic outlier.

I'd argue Sardinians aren't Italian.

[Leto]

This is what she gets on Eurogenes k15:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 East_German @ 7.979558
2 Austrian @ 9.713646
3 Hungarian @ 12.033504
4 Croatian @ 12.457831
5 South_Dutch @ 13.471677
6 South_Polish @ 15.276759
7 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.400556
8 French @ 15.514329
9 Moldavian @ 15.580163
10 Serbian @ 15.709307
11 North_German @ 15.984626
12 Polish @ 16.235750
13 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 16.679478
14 Ukrainian @ 16.695625
15 West_German @ 17.275963
16 Southwest_English @ 17.848469
17 Finnish @ 18.341791
18 Southeast_English @ 18.802477
19 Russian_Smolensk @ 18.902643
20 Danish @ 18.986248

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Polish +50% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.452705

I've found it.

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 35.07
2 Baltic 32.22
3 West_Med 18.76
4 East_Med 4.67
5 West_Asian 3.77
6 Northeast_African 1.34
7 Red_Sea 1.29
8 Amerindian 1.2
9 Sub-Saharan 1.14
10 South_Asian 0.46
11 East_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 5.43
2 Austrian 6.74
3 Hungarian 8.51
4 Croatian 10.27
5 South_Polish 12.34
6 Moldavian 12.47
7 West_German 12.59
8 South_Dutch 12.97
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.07
10 Ukrainian 13.8
11 Serbian 13.84
12 North_German 14.11
13 North_Swedish 14.53
14 Polish 14.69
15 Swedish 15
16 French 15.63
17 Danish 16.11
18 North_Dutch 16.17
19 Southwest_Finnish 16.18
20 Southeast_English 16.35

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.1% Polish + 40.9% Southwest_French @ 2.02
2 50.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 49.3% Lithuanian @ 2.12
3 60.2% Polish + 39.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.14
4 51.9% Southwest_French + 48.1% Lithuanian @ 2.56
5 53.7% Russian_Smolensk + 46.3% Southwest_French @ 2.62
6 70.2% Ukrainian + 29.8% French_Basque @ 2.66
7 63.4% Southwest_Russian + 36.6% French_Basque @ 2.68
8 51% Lithuanian + 49% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.7
9 63.8% Polish + 36.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.74
10 71.4% Ukrainian_Lviv + 28.6% French_Basque @ 2.76
11 54.8% Russian_Smolensk + 45.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.81
12 62.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.2% French_Basque @ 2.88
13 53% Lithuanian + 47% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.89
14 53.2% Estonian_Polish + 46.8% Southwest_French @ 2.9
15 62.1% Polish + 37.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.95
16 68.9% Polish + 31.1% French_Basque @ 2.95
17 54.3% Estonian_Polish + 45.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.99
18 63.8% Russian_Smolensk + 36.2% French_Basque @ 3.12
19 52.6% Belorussian + 47.4% Southwest_French @ 3.12
20 72.7% South_Polish + 27.3% French_Basque @ 3.18


Portuguese from the spreadsheet:

38.54% North_Atlantic
13.90% East Med
11.51% Baltic

Polish from the spreadsheet:

30.43% North_Atlantic
3.74% East Med
45.49% Baltic

She scores 32% (!) Baltic and only 4.67% East Med. It's obvious she is part something else.

[Sikeliot]

I've found it.

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 35.07
2 Baltic 32.22
3 West_Med 18.76
4 East_Med 4.67
5 West_Asian 3.77
6 Northeast_African 1.34
7 Red_Sea 1.29
8 Amerindian 1.2
9 Sub-Saharan 1.14
10 South_Asian 0.46
11 East_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 5.43
2 Austrian 6.74
3 Hungarian 8.51
4 Croatian 10.27
5 South_Polish 12.34
6 Moldavian 12.47
7 West_German 12.59
8 South_Dutch 12.97
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.07
10 Ukrainian 13.8
11 Serbian 13.84
12 North_German 14.11
13 North_Swedish 14.53
14 Polish 14.69
15 Swedish 15
16 French 15.63
17 Danish 16.11
18 North_Dutch 16.17
19 Southwest_Finnish 16.18
20 Southeast_English 16.35

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.1% Polish + 40.9% Southwest_French @ 2.02
2 50.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 49.3% Lithuanian @ 2.12
3 60.2% Polish + 39.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.14
4 51.9% Southwest_French + 48.1% Lithuanian @ 2.56
5 53.7% Russian_Smolensk + 46.3% Southwest_French @ 2.62
6 70.2% Ukrainian + 29.8% French_Basque @ 2.66
7 63.4% Southwest_Russian + 36.6% French_Basque @ 2.68
8 51% Lithuanian + 49% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.7
9 63.8% Polish + 36.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.74
10 71.4% Ukrainian_Lviv + 28.6% French_Basque @ 2.76
11 54.8% Russian_Smolensk + 45.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.81
12 62.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.2% French_Basque @ 2.88
13 53% Lithuanian + 47% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.89
14 53.2% Estonian_Polish + 46.8% Southwest_French @ 2.9
15 62.1% Polish + 37.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.95
16 68.9% Polish + 31.1% French_Basque @ 2.95
17 54.3% Estonian_Polish + 45.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.99
18 63.8% Russian_Smolensk + 36.2% French_Basque @ 3.12
19 52.6% Belorussian + 47.4% Southwest_French @ 3.12
20 72.7% South_Polish + 27.3% French_Basque @ 3.18


Portuguese from the spreadsheet:

38.54% North_Atlantic
13.90% East Med
11.51% Baltic

Polish from the spreadsheet:

30.43% North_Atlantic
3.74% East Med
45.49% Baltic

She score 32% (!) Baltic and only 4.67% East Med. It's obvious she is part something else.


My grandmother is abnormally north shifted for a Portuguese, even with around 5% SSA.

[Thot Whisperer]

My K13's results : we can notice that Andalucia, Galicia, Portugal and Extremadura are a bit higher than the others Iberian population in my mixed model :

https://i.imgur.com/JnI4OO8.jpg

Anyways, I think that the overlap is much older than Islamic conquests, as there has been a very intensive "ethnic" cleansing during the Reconquista. Don't forget moreover that Islamized Iberians were the bulk of the Andalusi population - Berbers were a minority. Important minority but still a minority. Maybe 20% ?

During the Phoenician Era, Northern Morocco and Southern Spain had strong ties : Lixus and Gades were something like twin-cities.
Furthermore, it's known that several Moor tribes have settled in Hispania during the Roman Era. Note also that Romanized Moors lived in Hispania's cities.

Your y DNA is not common amongst Moroccan people/North Africans, do you think you descend from those Andalusian families that were kicked out of Spain

[Bobby Martnen]

I'd argue Sardinians aren't Italian.

Then what are they?

[Leto]

My grandmother is abnormally north shifted for a Portuguese, even with around 5% SSA.
Still 32% Baltic is more than an average South Slav would score. Vlatko Vukovic scored 35% and it was the talk of the town for a couple of days, lol.

[Sikeliot]

Still 32% Baltic is more than an average South Slav would score. Vlatko Vukovic scored 35% and it was the talk of the town for a couple of days, lol.

Also one of my mothers great grandparents was of Belarusian origin (but Catholic, so they were identified as Polish), this might explain it too.

[dark-mysterio]

I didn't really get how they came to the conclusion that the North African influence entered Iberia around 800-1100 CE, ie with the Moors since Galicia was never part of the caliphate.

Here's something interesting though, just recently a new sample was added to Davidskis Global 25 PCA. A Roman soldier from Munich that plots with modern day Northern Iberians. He seems like he could be a modern day Northern Iberian and his North African influence is almost 0.

"distance%=2.0374"

Germany_Roman

Barcin_N,57.2
Yamnaya_Samara,28.8
WHG,13.2
Mozabite,0.8

And the modern Cantabrian sample in comparison.

"distance%=3.096"

Spanish_Cantabria

Barcin_N,54.4
Yamnaya_Samara,29.8
WHG,13.4
Mozabite,2.4

if i don't get wrong the province was owned by "the caliphate" under the name of "shant yakub" (santiago/Santiago de Compostela ?) before begin lost tho the kingdom of Asturias due tho a berbers revolt

[Bobby Martnen]

This is what she gets on Eurogenes k15:


Where does she plot on the K15 plot?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Yet none can post a single dna test of a random Spaniard that scores amount above 2-3%, true? :eyes

Dude, settle down. There is no study that shows Iberians don't have some North African ancestry and so you just look foolish pretending that it isn't the case.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

if i don't get wrong the province was owned by "the caliphate" under the name of "shant yakub" (santiago/Santiago de Compostela ?) before begin lost tho the kingdom of Asturias due tho a berbers revolt

No, that's incorrect. Santiago de Compostela didn't exist in the 8th century.


At some point between 818 and 842,[15] during the reign of Alfonso II of Asturias[16], bishop Theodemar of Iria (d. 847) claimed to have found some remains which were attributed to Saint James the Greater. This discovery was accepted in part because the Leo III[17] and Charlemagne—who had died in 814—had acknowledged Asturias as a kingdom and Alfonso II as king, and had also crafted close political and ecclesiastic ties.[18] Around the place of the discovery a new settlement and centre of pilgrimage emerged, which was known to the author Usuard in 865[19] and which was called Compostella by the 10th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_de_Compostela

Galicia was ruled by war lords for lack of a better term when it was incorporated by the Kingdom of Asturias.

[Bobby Martnen]

Dude, settle down. There is no study that shows Iberians don't have some North African ancestry and so you just look foolish pretending that it isn't the case.

Cristiano is highly autistic, which is why he does what he does.

[Sebastianus Rex]

At home, they speak their own languages (most do I think). But all can speak Italian as well.

Calling them dialects of Italian is a political move. If Sicilian is an Italian dialect, then Portuguese is a Spanish/Castilian dialect.

dont write more nonsense, we've had enough of those during this thread already, Portuguese cant be a dialect of Castillian dince they have a common origin and evolved divergently about the same period. If anything Gallaecian/Portuguese language was formed earlier than Castillian and was even spoken as the literated language in the Leonese court.

[Cristiano viejo]

Dude, settle down. There is no study that shows Iberians don't have some North African ancestry and so you just look foolish pretending that it isn't the case.

I am not deniying there is North African ancestry, idiot. That is not the point.

But none is able to post a single dna test of a random Spaniard scoring more than 2-3%.

Also claiming comes from Moorish, when your region is one of the regions that more high scores, it is suspect.

[Bobby Martnen]

I am not deniying there is North African ancestry, idiot. That is not the point.

But none is able to post a single dna test of a random Spaniard scoring more than 2-3%.

Also claiming comes from Moorish, when your region is one of the regions that more high scores, it is suspect.

https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Dude, settle down. There is no study that shows Iberians don't have some North African ancestry and so you just look foolish pretending that it isn't the case.

I did the ultimate sin. A double negative. May God forgive me.

[Cristiano viejo]

https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/

That does not prove anything. Any Spaniard scores such amount of Italian ancestry neither.

[Bobby Martnen]

That does not prove anything. Any Spaniard scores such amount of Italian ancestry neither.

Stop discounting results you dislike.

[Thot Whisperer]

If the moors didn’t reach Galicia then I believe some of the na came with the romans and the rest just Neolithic

[Cristiano viejo]

Stop discounting results you dislike.

At least I dont post stupid results claiming they are Spaniards.

[Mingle]

dont write more nonsense, we've had enough of those during this thread already, Portuguese cant be a dialect of Castillian dince they have a common origin and evolved divergently about the same period. If anything Gallaecian/Portuguese language was formed earlier than Castillian and was even spoken as the literated language in the Leonese court.

Did I say it was??? I mentioned Portuguese specifically to state how calling Sicilian a dialect of Italian doesn't make sense.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I am not deniying there is North African ancestry, idiot. That is not the point.

But none is able to post a single dna test of a random Spaniard scoring more than 2-3%.

How do you think they come up with averages? You're not going to be able to find a 'random Spaniard' since, for example, this study doesn't reveal each individuals admixture results. All we can do is refer to commercial DNA tests like 23andme, which are great but not extensive. So your question is stupid.


Also claiming comes from Moorish, when your region is one of the regions that more high scores, it is suspect.

At what point will it dawn on you that unlike yourself it doesn't bother me that Spaniards (and in my more specific case Galicians) have North African/Berber/Moorish ancestry?

[FilhoV]

Keep calm and eat some Chouriço

[Cristiano viejo]

How do you think they come up with averages?
That is what is suspect.


You're not going to be able to find a 'random Spaniard' since, for example, this study doesn't reveal each individuals admixture results. All we can do is refer to commercial DNA tests like 23andme, which are great but not extensive. So your question is stupid.
Not extensive? haha are you serious? Spaniards are probably the most analyzed people on earth when genetic comes... and do you say their dna tests are not extensive?? :rolleyes:

Sorry if I dont trust of all these "studies" (which each day say a different thing) when not even one fuckin Spanish dna test shows more than 2-3%, with the exception of Canarians.



At what point will it dawn on you that unlike yourself it doesn't bother me that Spaniards (and in my more specific case Galicians) have North African/Berber/Moorish ancestry?
Irrelevant, my Galician witch.

[Bobby Martnen]

At least I dont post stupid results claiming they are Spaniards.

I'm not the original one who posted the results.

[Insuperable]

Copper Age Iberian (Atapuerca, Spain)
http://i68.tinypic.com/b9farq.png
One sample from Bronze Age scored 0% NA, closest to Basques. I don't now where it was from. Depends on regions I guess, replacements, mixing etc.

[Aren]

How many times do I have to tell you, North African input doesn’t just mean SSA + SW Asian, they had alot of Anatolian farmer genes just like most modern day southern Europeans.

Either way people are making a big deal out of this. In fact I would say a country like Slovenia probably has more Iron Age/ Roman era Iran_N/CHG input than the average Iberian has North African.

[FilhoV]

Copper Age Iberian (Spain)
http://i68.tinypic.com/b9farq.png

1 West_Med 52.29
2 North_Atlantic 38.33
3 East_Med 7.98
4 Red_Sea 0.75
5 Oceanian 0.38
6 Sub-Saharan 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 18.12
2 French_Basque 20.53
3 Spanish_Aragon 22.5
4 Spanish_Andalucia 23.14
5 Southwest_French 23.38
6 Spanish_Cantabria 23.56
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 23.72
8 Spanish_Valencia 24.96
9 Spanish_Extremadura 25.47
10 Spanish_Murcia 25.96
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 26.34
12 Spanish_Galicia 26.51
13 Spanish_Cataluna 26.9
14 Portuguese 27.2
15 North_Italian 29.28
16 Tuscan 33.25
17 French 34.04
18 West_Sicilian 37.41
19 South_Dutch 39.2
20 Italian_Abruzzo 39.34

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54% Sardinian + 46% French_Basque @ 9.06
2 60.5% Sardinian + 39.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 14.01
3 62.1% Sardinian + 37.9% Southwest_French @ 14.08
4 63% Sardinian + 37% Spanish_Cantabria @ 14.43
5 78.8% Sardinian + 21.2% Southwest_English @ 14.87
6 64.2% Sardinian + 35.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 14.92
7 80.4% Sardinian + 19.6% West_Scottish @ 15
8 80.6% Sardinian + 19.4% Irish @ 15.11
9 80.8% Sardinian + 19.2% Orcadian @ 15.28
10 64.4% Sardinian + 35.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 15.38
11 80.4% Sardinian + 19.6% Southeast_English @ 15.42
12 69.6% Sardinian + 30.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 15.55
13 70.3% Sardinian + 29.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 15.57
14 67.9% Sardinian + 32.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 15.59
15 82.5% Sardinian + 17.5% North_Dutch @ 15.66
16 83.2% Sardinian + 16.8% Norwegian @ 15.67
17 83% Sardinian + 17% Danish @ 15.78
18 69.9% Sardinian + 30.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 15.79
19 70.8% Sardinian + 29.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 15.85
20 69.7% Sardinian + 30.3% Sp

[FilhoV]

That Iron Age Iberian is essentially Sardinian shifted. Any modern Sardinian kits available

[Bobby Martnen]

That Iron Age Iberian is essentially Sardinian

Then they got buttfucked by Moors and Cristiano was born.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

That is what is suspect.

I suspect you failed at elementary math.


Not extensive? haha are you serious? Spaniards are probably the most analyzed people on earth when genetic comes... and do you say their dna tests are not extensive?? :rolleyes:

23andme isn't extensive. A number of professionally done genetic studies about Spaniards would be more extensive in that the population would be the focus and obviously patterns appear within the studies despite any conflicting interpretations. I made the distinction clear in my previous post. Also, no, Spaniards aren't the most analyzed people on Earth when it comes to genetics. Sometimes I think you simply say whatever you feel like regardless of whether it's accurate and hope for the best.


Sorry if I dont trust of all these "studies" (which each day say a different thing) when not even one fuckin Spanish dna test shows more than 2-3%, with the exception of Canarians.

They really don't say a different thing when it comes to the big picture.


Irrelevant, my Galician witch.

I'm very relevant. Myself and Aguia are probably the only people here who can kill someone within a minute. This gives me a great source of pride and confidence.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Did I say it was??? I mentioned Portuguese specifically to state how calling Sicilian a dialect of Italian doesn't make sense.

misunderstood you then. Of course that Sicilian has not evolved from "standard Italian", it was mostly from vulgar latin, these guys could check wikipedia once in a while.

[Cristiano viejo]

I suspect you failed at elementary math.
Nothing to do with maths but with common sense. Sorry if I think you are brainwashed and they deceive you quite easily.



I23andme isn't extensive and saying so isn't the same as saying that genetic studies about Spaniards would be more extensive. I made the distinction clear in my previous post. Also, no, Spaniards aren't the most analyzed people on Earth when it comes to genetics. Sometimes I think you simply say whatever regardless of whether it's accurate and hope for the best
Sometimes I think you write too boring novels but without saying anything.



IThey really don't say a different thing when it comes to the big picture.
I am sure there must be very easy to post ONE Spanish dna test where the person scores 10% North African, as they claim.

But does not happens, sorry :rolleyes: NOT even only ONE, eh?



II'm very relevant. Myself and Aguia are probably the only people here who can kill someone within a minute. This gives me a great source of pride and confidence.

Since the sofa of your parents house watching the Mets with a Budweiser in the hand and a bag of potatoes in the other? I doubt...

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Nothing to do with maths but with common sense. Sorry if I think you are brainwashed and they deceive you quite easily.

Averages aren't computed from 'common sense.'




Sometimes I think you write too boring novels but without saying anything.

I actually laughed. I love irony.




I am sure there must be very easy to post ONE Spanish dna test where the person scores 10% North African, as they claim.


I already said that no commercial DNA company would be that extensive. It's not in their financial gain to focus on Spaniards alone. A genetic study specifically focused on Spaniards would be and I believe in this particular study if I remember correctly the Galician sample scored around 11% on average.


But does not happens, sorry :rolleyes: NOT even only ONE, eh?

How about you write them a letter asking for the individual samples. Maybe they'll send it to you cuz you're charming.



Since the sofa of your parents house watching the Mets with a Budweiser in the hand and a bag of potatoes in the other? I doubt...

I don't drink alcohol and I don't eat potato chips. I only eat one meal a day, actually (but I do love cookies.. tee-hee...)

[Cristiano viejo]

Averages aren't computed from 'common sense.'
But from $$$



I actually laughed. I love irony.
I dont think you love anything. You are always angry :D



I already said that no commercial DNA company would be that extensive. It's not in their financial gain to focus on Spaniards alone. A genetic study specifically focused on Spaniards would be and I believe in this particular study if I remember correctly the Galician sample scored around 11% on average.

How about you write them a letter asking for the individual samples. Maybe they'll send it to you cuz you're charming.
Dont put cheap excuses and admit it has to be very easy to post ONE FUCKIN SINGLE dna test of a random Spaniard scoring 11%, even higher, if that is the average :noidea:




I don't drink alcohol and I don't eat potato chips. I only eat one meal a day, actually (but I do love cookies.. tee-hee...)

Fuck, boring even with the food :zzz

[Friends of Oliver Society]

But from $$$

Yeah, there is a lot of money to be gained from showing Spaniards have North African admixture. Millions of dollars, in fact.

We're back to you throwing random nonsense out there and hoping for the best.




I dont think you love anything. You are always angry :D


People acting absurd does annoy me.


Dont put cheap excuses and admit it has to be very easy to post ONE FUCKIN SINGLE dna test of a random Spaniard scoring 11%, even higher, if that is the average :noidea:

No, it wouldn't be easy because I don't have access to the samples in this study. Now find someone else to tutor you in elementary mathematics.






Fuck, boring even with the food :zzz

Boring is this absurd conversation I'm having with you.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yeah, there is a lot of money to be gained from showing Spaniards have North African admixture. Millions of dollars, in fact.

We're back to you throwing random nonsense out there and hoping for the best.
Indeed. It resembles a study financed by the Catalan separatist government done by the Pompeu Fabra University from some years ago where they affirmed only Catalans and Basques were pure Iberian people, and later they rectified :rolleyes:


People acting absurd does annoy me.
That says a lot about you because you are in the incorrect forum to complain.



No, it wouldn't be easy because I don't have access to the samples in this study. Now find someone else to tutor you in elementary mathematics.

Oh yes, I need it, because you have showed to be very bad in it...







Boring is this absurd conversation I'm having with you.

You started it, now dont complain, loser.

[Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda]

Your y DNA is not common amongst Moroccan people/North Africans, do you think you descend from those Andalusian families that were kicked out of Spain

I don't think so. I don't match anyone that is from the Moroccan cities where Andalusian familian have settled. Moreover, my Iberian component isn't really higher than the Moroccan average although I'm 1/8 from Northwestern Morocco.
My Y-ancestors indeed came from Iberia - my Y-DNA matches are Spaniards and Portuguese, but I rather think it's much older than Al Andalus era.
Romanized Iberians are a good guess - it's a historical fact that Romanized Iberians were a non negligible component in Mauritania Tingitania's cities, not to forget that some Iberians crossed the Strait in Phoenician times.... but I even think it's much older.

I give some arguments in that thread : https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235873-G-Z27232-a-North-African-clade

[Wrong]

It almost always do.https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

[Wrong]

But they have eat Asian genes
It's mostly remains from Magyar conquest as the Magyars also carried East Asian admixture.

[Petalpusher]

I said that long before you. I've been saying it for years. The study is only interesting in some of the details. The rest is already known.

If admixture is acting like an entity, the usual pattern i ve noticed many times is it goes "at the end of the road", i don't know if it explains Galicia but this might be part of the reason, while in this case it should be the norhwest coast. This is a very natural behavior i think anyway, when entering a new territory humans tend to not especially settle at its gate, but expand on all this territory until they find something that stop them, like a natural barrier (here, the sea). This might be true in the same way for the Celtic/IE influences, as Galicia combine both interestingly.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

If admixture is acting like an entity, the usual pattern i ve noticed many times is it goes "at the end of the road", i don't know if it explains Galicia but this might be part of the reason, while in this case it should be the norhwest coast. This is a very natural behavior i think anyway, when entering a new territory humans tend to not especially settle at its gate, but expand on all this territory until they find something that stop them, like a natural barrier (here, the sea). This might be true in the same way for the Celtic/IE influences, as Galicia combine both interestingly.

How does one explain then that regions that weren't conquered by the Umayyad or that stayed the least time under their domain have the highest northwestern african admixture? It is not like the Umayyad went all the way up to the northwest of the peninsula and settled there.

[Hevo]

The modern definition of ethnic German is based on political boundaries. Saxons living in the Netherlands are considered ethnic Saxon, but Saxons living in Germany (North German is Saxon land) are considered ethnic German. Frisians living in the Netherlands are considered ethnic Frisian but Frisians living in Germany are considered ethnic German. .

Can you provide a source for this statement? As far as I know, Frisians have a strong cultural identity in both countries.

[Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda]

How does one explain then that regions that weren't conquered by the Umayyad or that stayed the least time under their domain have the highest northwestern african admixture? It is not like the Umayyad went all the way up to the northwest of the peninsula and settled there.

That's the point ! Berber/North African impact was significant although not dominant among Muslims Andalusians, but as there was an intensive "ethnic" cleansing during the Reconquista, that Berber element came back to North Africa and didn't really impact the post-1492 Iberia.

Let's say a tiny Mudejar/Morisco component has remained after 1492-1614... Even in that case, it would very likely be a "Islamized Iberian" element (70% of chance). We shouldn't forget that even the more "Ibero-Christianized" Moriscos were expelled - some of them kept until now the patronyms they were given by the Inquisition. Slightly modified. Examples in Morocco : Bargach (Vargas), Jorio (Osorio), Morarech (Morales), Loubaris (Olivares), Chkalatante (Escalante).

I think that the North African input in Iberia is much older. Neolithic, protohistoric and historic times.
By Historic times, I mean Phoenicians, Carthaginians and Romans.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That's the point ! Berber/North African impact was significant although not dominant among Muslims Andalusians, but as there was an intensive "ethnic" cleansing during the Reconquista, that Berber element came back to North Africa and didn't really impact the post-1492 Iberia.

Let's say a tiny Mudejar/Morisco component has remained after 1492-1614... Even in that case, it would very likely be a "Islamized Iberian" element (70% of chance). We shouldn't forget that even the more "Ibero-Christianized" Moriscos were expelled - some of them kept until now the patronyms they were given by the Inquisition. Slightly modified. Examples in Morocco : Bargach (Vargas), Jorio (Osorio), Morarech (Morales), Loubaris (Olivares), Chkalatante (Escalante).

I think that the North African input in Iberia is much older. Neolithic, protohistoric and historic times.
By Historic times, I mean Phoenicians, Carthaginians and Romans.

I don't know from where the other member that posted the Iberian sample from the Copper Age got it from, neither I know from which year is it; but assuming that it is real it seems that it already had the same amount of northwest African ancestry as the average modern population from the same region (northeastern Castilla y León). Early Copper Age and a beaker, Late Copper Age took place in Iberia in 3250–2600 b.c. and 2600–2200 b.c. so that would mean that when it comes to north-african ancestry it hasn't changed much in the last four/five milleniums.

This study concludes that western Iberians have more north-african input (though not significantly different from other regions in the Peninsula, excluding the Basque Country) than their counterparts in the east. We already knew that. This study doesn't clarify however how the peaks of this admixture are to be found exactly on the regions that had the least or even no Moorish presence at all.

[FilhoV]

It depends on the individual in my opinion and all populations that are caucasoid are going to have genetic overlap. Wish the studies on Portuguese were as expanded as Spanish ones are on PCA plots the Portuguese distances are in some cases greater than the Spanish ones. Also from my time looking at various Portuguese GED match results some of the samples drift North and I’m my case it drifts eastward.

Azorean samples are essentially identical to Portuguese mainlanders with São Miguel mainly Ponta Delgada and Rabo de Peixe being an exception as they tend to drift slightly eastward imo and Haplogroup J and G are higher than in mainland If memory serves me

North African genetics are a little more precarious as ancient and modern North Africans are only usually 30-35% North African per AncestryDNA with the other biggest genetic footprint being Iberian and Southeastern European. I’ve seen a Riffian score 30% Iberian once on Gedmatch same guy scored 20%

[Isleño]

This is what I have been saying -- variation in Iberia is east to west, rather than north to south.Lots of us been saying that for a long time. Previous studies on Iberia suggested this as well

[Token]

Admixture dates corresponds pretty well with the first half of the Moorish rule. Now, it is safe to assume that Moors did contributed to the modern Iberian genepool.

https://i.imgur.com/ucWW7OR.png

[Isleño]

...

[Isleño]

Admixture dates corresponds pretty well with the first half of the Moorish rule. Now, it is safe to assume that Moors did contributed to the modern Iberian genepool.

https://i.imgur.com/ucWW7OR.png
I said this before a long time ago, but was attacked by some, so I left it alone.

[Petalpusher]

How does one explain then that regions that weren't conquered by the Umayyad or that stayed the least time under their domain have the highest northwestern african admixture? It is not like the Umayyad went all the way up to the northwest of the peninsula and settled there.

That was the point, genes aren't floating in the air like any proximity contacts are going to give you a specific admixture. Rules and conquests can create more antagonism than in regions that were never under rules, it could be social reasons, etc.. Again in the same way why Galicia would be the most "Celtic" when that influence entered Iberia through Catalonia or somewhere close.

It's also possible it came multiple times at different times and different places. Let's say you are 1/8 something (it's an example), 800 years later that same something come again and mix with some other locals, in the end you may also get another population made of 1/8 mixes and two or 3 signals of admixture at different times leading to the same end result in the present.

There s also always the bias of how the mixes were redistributed in the population, for example in the US we know only about 1 out of 10 Euro/African mixes were reintegrated in the white communities, the 9 left went back to black communities. This is why African Americans are much more Europeans than American Europeans are Africans. This is a phenomenon to consider always underestimated than can result to more or less admixture in some places while they actually had the same input from a population.

[Isleño]

“Our observation that genetic differences are small in the north-south direction within Spain, and evidence of gene flow preferentially in this direction, are most straightforward to interpret in the light of historical information regarding the Reconquista, during which Christian-controlled territory in the north moved gradually southwards from the mid-8th Century, following the Muslim invasion of Iberia (711CE). By 1249 almost all of Iberia was under Christian rule, and the Battle of Granada in 1492 marks the end of Muslim rule in Iberia. There is historical evidence of migration of peoples from the northern Christian kingdoms into newly conquered regions during the Reconquista10,21.”

This confirms the accounts of northerners moving to the south to repopulate southern towns as they were being reconquered from the Muslims.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

If admixture is acting like an entity, the usual pattern i ve noticed many times is it goes "at the end of the road", i don't know if it explains Galicia but this might be part of the reason, while in this case it should be the norhwest coast. This is a very natural behavior i think anyway, when entering a new territory humans tend to not especially settle at its gate, but expand on all this territory until they find something that stop them, like a natural barrier (here, the sea). This might be true in the same way for the Celtic/IE influences, as Galicia combine both interestingly.

Prior to railways movement to Galicia from Castile/Leon was difficult because of the mountains. The easiest routes to Galicia was by sea or through Portugal.

[GiCa]

End of story. >front of theese stats.. The querelle on if the North Africa admix was very ancient or more recent during the Califate is now resolved.

It s from the Califate.

[Wrong]

Admixture dates corresponds pretty well with the first half of the Moorish rule. Now, it is safe to assume that Moors did contributed to the modern Iberian genepool.

https://i.imgur.com/ucWW7OR.png
Can we get a bigger image of this?

[Catarinense1998]

OMG so I am like a Argelian, Tunisian, Marroqian...
Honestly this hurt me a lot.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

End of story. >front of theese stats.. The querelle on if the North Africa admix was very ancient or more recent during the Califate is now resolved.

It s from the Califate.

It's not resolved because there has to be a clarification on how regions that weren't conquered by the Moors have NA to the point that it's more so than regions that was under Muslim rule for centuries. That just can't be ignored and the speculation made in the study that there was a mass movement of people with NA admixture into Galicia from Portugal after the fact doesn't make any sense.

[Catarinense1998]

Não me estás a dizer nada de novo, já tive esta discussão antes. Mas isto aqui é o Dia da Marmota periodicamente.

O que significa "Dia da Marmota"?Não existe no Brasil essa expressão.

[Isleño]

End of story. >front of theese stats.. The querelle on if the North Africa admix was very ancient or more recent during the Califate is now resolved.

It s from the Califate.
This doesn’t bother me, I’m Canarian descent, I already have North Africa from another source as well. But I know how some Iberians feel about it, so I wouldn’t push the issue.

It is what it is.

[Isleño]

It's not resolved because there has to be a clarification on how regions that weren't conquered by the Moors have NA to the point that it's more so than regions that was under Muslim rule for centuries. That just can't be ignored and the speculation made in the study that there was a mass movement of people with NA admixture into Galicia from Portugal after the fact doesn't make any sense.

“Perhaps surprisingly, north African ancestry does not reflect proximity to north Africa, or even regions under more extended Muslim control. The highest amounts of north African ancestry found within Iberia are in the west (11%) including in Galicia, despite the fact that the region of Galicia as it is defined today (north of the Miño river), was never under Muslim rule and Berber settlements north of the Douro river were abandoned by 741. This observation is consistent with previous work using Y-chromosome data. We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with non-Spanish groups more generally. Alternatively, it might be that these patterns reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in towns and cities10,21.“

[Isleño]

It's not resolved because there has to be a clarification on how regions that weren't conquered by the Moors have NA to the point that it's more so than regions that was under Muslim rule for centuries. That just can't be ignored and the speculation made in the study that there was a mass movement of people with NA admixture into Galicia from Portugal after the fact doesn't make any sense.

“The entire large community of moriscos in Granada was relocated northward and westward following the war of 1567–1571. In addition, the final expulsion of moriscos, ordered by Philip III and beginning in1609, was highly effective in some regions of Spain, including Valencia and Western Andalucia, but less so in Galicia and Extremadura, where the population was more dispersed and integrated.”

The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula

Adams et al. 2008

http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That was the point, genes aren't floating in the air like any proximity contacts are going to give you a specific admixture. Rules and conquests can create more antagonism than in regions that were never under rules, it could be social reasons, etc.. Again in the same way why Galicia would be the most "Celtic" when that influence entered Iberia through Catalonia or somewhere close.

It's also possible it came multiple times at different times and different places. Let's say you are 1/8 something (it's an example), 800 years later that same something come again and mix with some other locals, in the end you may also get another population made of 1/8 mixes and two or 3 signals of admixture at different times leading to the same end result in the present.

There s also always the bias of how the mixes were redistributed in the population, for example in the US we know only about 1 out of 10 Euro/African mixes were reintegrated in the white communities, the 9 left went back to black communities. This is why African Americans are much more Europeans than American Europeans are Africans. This is a phenomenon to consider always underestimated than can result to more or less admixture in some places while they actually had the same input from a population.

Yes, I know that outcast rules and conquests sometimes can create segregation and regional clusters within the boundaries instead of necessarily having the local population absorbing the genepool from the invader\new ruler.

However, to draw precise conclusions I believe we have to understand and know more about how modern Iberians differ (or not) from ancient Iberians.

We know very little about the pre-Roman tribes of Iberia. We are clueless about where most of them came from and so far we can only speculate. We know that Galicians, Portugueses and Catalonians score the highest levels of northwestern ancestry, translated mostly into North Sea components on must calculators which isn't necessarily textbook Celtic and can either be related to the genepool of ancient Iberian populations (which have always been more northen ploting than other southern europeans) as well as the genepool footprint of the Suevis and Visigoths (speculating).

The Britons were there as well.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Britonia6hcentury2.svg/200px-Britonia6hcentury2.svg.png

Wouldn't surprise me. There are hypothesis for everything. Some of the populations we had in Iberia probably have come initially and originally from regions that are thousands of quilotemeters away. So it wouldn't surpise me if there were ancient migratory routes from the northwest of africa into Iberia, considering that there is only 14 km separeting us apart in the strait of Gibraltar. The Copper Age samples seem to corroborate it. And like you said, it does make sense that they would roam to the northwest of the peninsula following the litoral coastline, regions that are within the peninsula more fertile.

The example you gave of Afro-Americas makes sense and I am sure you're stating it because there's palpable evidence on it. There's however no archeological or historical evidence of migrations from south to north to regions that were never conquered like Galiza or Asturias; or nations like Portugal that were Muslim free almost four hundred years earlier than certain Spanish regions.

Portugal is a sovereign independent nation since 1143. It is extremely unlikely that movements from Portugal to Galiza have happened in the past, considering that we have been separated since 1143. On the contrary, it is known that the opossite hapened considering the immense amout of lands we have with Galician toponyms, besides family names such as Fonseca, etc.

[Isleño]

I didn't really get how they came to the conclusion that the North African influence entered Iberia around 800-1100 CE, ie with the Moors since Galicia was never part of the caliphate.

Here's something interesting though, just recently a new sample was added to Davidskis Global 25 PCA. A Roman soldier from Munich that plots with modern day Northern Iberians. He seems like he could be a modern day Northern Iberian and his North African influence is almost 0.

"distance%=2.0374"

Germany_Roman

Barcin_N,57.2
Yamnaya_Samara,28.8
WHG,13.2
Mozabite,0.8

And the modern Cantabrian sample in comparison.

"distance%=3.096"

Spanish_Cantabria

Barcin_N,54.4
Yamnaya_Samara,29.8
WHG,13.4
Mozabite,2.4
They narrowed it down to the admixture event. The also speculated that Galicia experienced North African population movement.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Also, on GEDMatch, Portuguese often can be modeled as Spanish + 10-12% North African. This is no coincidence.

In mixed mode it is normal because it is matching you against reference populations and trying to get a best fit to your genetic data. It does not mean that you are actually that combination. Unless you want to claim that Italians, Albanians and Greeks have Jewish ancestry because they often get them in mixed modes.

On a single population distance you do get an ideia how genetically close or apart you're from other average samples from other ethnic groups. Very rarely, if ever, Maghrebis appear on the top 20.

Not that you don't know that already, but as usual you like to distorte things.

[Isleño]

Yes, I know that outcast rules and conquests sometimes can create segregation and regional clusters within the boundaries instead of necessarily having the local population absorbing the genepool from the invader\new ruler.

However, to draw precise conclusions I believe we have to understand and know more about how modern Iberians differ (or not) from ancient Iberians.

We know very little about the pre-Roman tribes of Iberia. We are clueless about where most of them came from and so far we can only speculate. We know that Galicians, Portugueses and Catalonians score the highest levels of northwestern ancestry, translated mostly into North Sea components on must calculators which isn't necessarily textbook Celtic and can either be related to the genepool of ancient Iberian populations (which have always been more northen ploting than other southern europeans) as well as the genepool footprint of the Suevis and Visigoths (speculating).

The Britons were there as well.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Britonia6hcentury2.svg/200px-Britonia6hcentury2.svg.png

Wouldn't surprise me. There are hypothesis for everything. Some of the populations we had in Iberia probably have come initially and originally from regions that are thousands of quilotemeters away. So it wouldn't surpise me if there were ancient migratory routes from the northwest of africa into Iberia, considering that there is only 14 km separeting us apart in the strait of Gibraltar. The Copper Age samples seem to corroborate it. And like you said, it does make sense that they would roam to the northwest of the peninsula following the litoral coastline, regions that are within the peninsula more fertile.

The example you gave of Afro-Americas makes sense and I am sure you're stating it because there's palpable evidence on it. There's however no archeological or historical evidence of migrations from south to north to regions that were never conquered like Galiza or Asturias; or nations like Portugal that were Muslim free almost four hundred years earlier than certain Spanish regions.

Portugal is a sovereign independent nation since 1143. It is extremely unlikely that movements from Portugal to Galiza have happened in the past, considering that we have been separated since 1143. On the contrary, it is known that the opossite hapened considering the immense amout of lands we have with Galician toponyms, besides family names such as Fonseca, etc.
That’s exactly what the authors of the study in the OP are speculating, as they’ve said in their study:

“We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with non-Spanish groups more generally.”

But they give an alternate hypothesis:

“Alternatively, it might be that these patterns reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in towns and cities”

[Heather Duval]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rIzZzV6ZLhQ/TOMpGWHeI-I/AAAAAAAAAC4/izI0J0PDCHA/jana3grande.gif

[Insuperable]

I don't know from where the other member that posted the Iberian sample from the Copper Age got it from, neither I know from which year is it; but assuming that it is real it seems that it already had the same amount of northwest African ancestry as the average modern population from the same region (northeastern Castilla y León). Early Copper Age and a beaker, Late Copper Age took place in Iberia in 3250–2600 b.c. and 2600–2200 b.c. so that would mean that when it comes to north-african ancestry it hasn't changed much in the last four/five milleniums.

This study concludes that western Iberians have more north-african input (though not significantly different from other regions in the Peninsula, excluding the Basque Country) than their counterparts in the east. We already knew that. This study doesn't clarify however how the peaks of this admixture are to be found exactly on the regions that had the least or even no Moorish presence at all.

I put Dodecad V3 because it has NW African component, but I don't know how reliable these calculators are when it comes to ancient samples. Results wary a lot. I also found several more neolithic Iberian samples. One had 3.5% NW African on V3. Other had 0%. Then I also found one more recent, (I think 1500 BC Bronze Age), I don't know location, and it was almost the same as Basque with 0% NWA. Just because one ancient sample showed NWA does not mean it is the source of modern NA admixture in Iberians (population replacement) and likewise just because one more recent sample showed 0% does not mean that at the same time didn't exist ancient Iberians with NA like admixture. Only a number of 500 BC Iberian and 500 AD can give a definite answer.

[Morena]

In all seriousness, I do think this is study is odd. How is it that areas that had no Muslim incursion have more NA than areas that were under Muslim conquest longer?

My theory is that refugees from the south, perhaps people who were Muslim apostates and Christians with a Moorish ancestor due to rape, fled North during the occupation.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

“The entire large community of moriscos in Granada was relocated northward and westward following the war of 1567–1571. In addition, the final expulsion of moriscos, ordered by Philip III and beginning in1609, was highly effective in some regions of Spain, including Valencia and Western Andalucia, but less so in Galicia and Extremadura, where the population was more dispersed and integrated.”

The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula

Adams et al. 2008

http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/

I'm aware of that. The population was small. It wouldn't be significant enough to give a similar proportion of NA ancestry to match the Portuguese and it also doesn't explain the high NA in Asturias and Cantabria. These people weren't settled in those regions. Also, if it had been significant enough to give Galicians a similar proportion of NA to the Portuguese then Galicians in this study wouldn't be indistinguishable from the Portuguese considering these people would have Iberian ancestry from a different part of Spain that would pull Galicians away from the Portuguese even if slightly.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

“Perhaps surprisingly, north African ancestry does not reflect proximity to north Africa, or even regions under more extended Muslim control. The highest amounts of north African ancestry found within Iberia are in the west (11%) including in Galicia, despite the fact that the region of Galicia as it is defined today (north of the Miño river), was never under Muslim rule and Berber settlements north of the Douro river were abandoned by 741. This observation is consistent with previous work using Y-chromosome data. We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with non-Spanish groups more generally. Alternatively, it might be that these patterns reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in towns and cities10,21.“

That's what I meant by speculation. I'm not fucking retarded, dude. I can read English just fine. Perhaps you didn't see the word 'speculate' in what you posted from the study.

In fact, my post specifically talks about what they wrote and so I dont understand your 'aha!' type response.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That’s exactly what the authors of the study in the OP are speculating, as they’ve said in their study:

“We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with non-Spanish groups more generally.”

But they give an alternate hypothesis:

“Alternatively, it might be that these patterns reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in towns and cities”

That speculation however is not backed on any archeological or historical data. Influx from south to north? That makes no sense whatsoever when you read historical accounts that exist to date.

Galicians and Portugueses show indistinguishable ancestry because...we descend from them. It is that simple. It wasn't because later on Portugueses or southerners from Spain roamed to Galiza and Asturias, which were seen as one of the least atractive regions of Iberia by the way (per example most Umayyad Emirs considered that those regions were not worth the effort because they were not propicious to produce wine or olive oil, highly valueble during that time).

The most relevant region of Galiza was the Conventus Bracarensis, whose capital was Bracara Augusta (Braga) and which remained the capital of the Suevi Kingdom.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Gallaecia-conventus_bracarensis.png

The rural population density of Minho has always been the most important in the northwest of Iberia since they had a population relatively numerous to the medieval Iberian standards. Onwards this well-established population served as a demographic, linguistic, cultural, political and military base for the formation of the Kingdom of Portugal that progressively conquered the center and almost the entire south of Portugal in less than 50 years.

[Morena]

That speculation however is not backed on any archeological or historical data. Influx from south to north? That makes no sense whatsoever when you read historical accounts that exist to date.

Galicians and Portugueses show indistinguishable ancestry because...we descend from them. It is that simple. It wasn't because later on Portugueses or southerners from Spain roamed to Galiza and Asturias, which were seen as one of the least atractive regions of Iberia by the way (per example most Umayyad Emirs considered that those regions were not worth the effort because they were not propicious to produce wine or olive oil, highly valueble during that time).

The most relevant region of Galiza was the Conventus Bracarensis, whose capital was Bracara Augusta (Braga) and which remained the capital of the Suevi Kingdom.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Gallaecia-conventus_bracarensis.png

The rural population density of Minho has always been the most important in the northwest of Iberia since they had a population relatively numerous to the medieval Iberian standards. Onwards this well-established population served as a demographic, linguistic, cultural, political and military base for the formation of the Kingdom of Portugal that progressively conquered the center and almost the entire south of Portugal in less than 50 years.

So why do you think they got those scores?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

That’s exactly what the authors of the study in the OP are speculating, as they’ve said in their study:

“We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with non-Spanish groups more generally.”

But they give an alternate hypothesis:

“Alternatively, it might be that these patterns reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in towns and cities”

The alternative explanation doesn't make any sense as well. There were no Moorish/Morisco communities in Galicia, Asturias, or Cantabria. There is no writen record of such communities and you would a significantly large community to give a population 11% of anything.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

So why do you think they got those scores?

I don't know, like I said we have very little knowledge concerning pre-Roman Iberian tribes and we had a staggering amount of them.

Just a "small" list:


Aquitanians
Airenosini/Arenosii
Iacetani
Vascones
Iberians
Andosini
Ausetani
Bastetani/Bastitani/Bastuli
Basti
Mastieni
Bergistani/Bergusii
Castellani
Cessetani/Cossetani
Ceretani/Cerretani
Contestani
Alicante/Alacant
Deitani
Edetani
Elisyces/Helisyces
Ilercavones
Ilergetes/Ilergetae
Indigetes/Indigetae
Lacetani
Laietani
Oretani
Sedetani
Sordones
Vescetani/Oscenses
Arevaci
Belli
Cratistii
Lobetani
Lusones
Olcades
Pellendones/Cerindones
Titii
Turboletae/Turboleti
Uraci/Duraci

Allotriges/Autrigones
Astures
Cismontani
Amaci
Cabruagenigi
Gigurri
Lancienses
Lougei
Orniaci
Superatii
Susarri/Astures Proper
Tiburi
Zoelae
Transmontani
Baedunienses
Brigaentini
Cabarci
Iburri
Luggones/Lungones
Paenii
Paesici
Saelini
Vinciani
Viromenici
Bebryaces/Berybraces
Berones
Cantabri
Avarigines
Blendii/Plentusii/Plentuisii
Camarici/Tamarici
Concani
Coniaci/Conisci
Moroecani
Noegi
Orgenomesci
Salaeni/Selaeni
Vadinienses
Vellici/Velliques
Caristii/Carietes
Carpetani
Aelariques
Aeturiques
Arquioci
Acualiques
Bocouriques
Canbarici
Contucianci
Dagencii
Doviliques
Duitiques
Duniques
Elguismiques
Langioci
Longeidoci
Maganiques
Malugeniques
Manuciques
Maureici
Mesici
Metturici
Moenicci
Obisodiques
Pilonicori
Solici
Tirtaliques
Uloques
Venatioques
Celtici
Cempsi
Conii –
Mirobrigenses
Sefes/Saefes
Celtici of Arunda (Ronda)
Cynetes
Gallaecians or Callaici
Addovi/Iadovi
Aebocosi
Albiones/Albioni
Amphiloci
Aobrigenses
Arroni/Arrotrebi
Arrotrebae/Artabri
Aunonenses
Baedi
Banienses
Biballi
Bracari/Callaeci/Gallaeci Proper
Brigantes (Callaici tribe)
Capori
Celtici Praestamarici
Celtici Supertamarici
Cibarci
Cileni
Coelerni/Aquaflavienses
Egi
Egovarri
Equaesi
Grovii
Iadones
Interamici/Interamnici


By the way, it is super incomplete because I am not in the mood to copy\paste more, I didn't even include the Para-Celts\Pre-Celtic Indo-Europeans tribes of Iberia. We will only understand when we get to know more how ancient Iberians were genetically from one region to another in different periods of time.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

So why do you think they got those scores?

I'm sure Viriato will say what a number of people in this thread have already said/and or implied: That it is the consequence of an older NA population movement done predominately by sea.

I believe the further East you go the more likely NA ancestry comes from the Moorish period (predominately)

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I put Dodecad V3 because it has NW African component, but I don't know how reliable these calculators are when it comes to ancient samples. Results wary a lot. I also found several more neolithic Iberian samples. One had 3.5% NW African on V3. Other had 0%. Then I also found one more recent, (I think 1500 BC Bronze Age), I don't know location, and it was almost the same as Basque with 0% NWA. Just because one ancient sample showed NWA does not mean it is the source of modern NA admixture in Iberians (population replacement) and likewise just because one more recent sample showed 0% does not mean that at the same time didn't exist ancient Iberians with NA like admixture. Only a number of 500 BC Iberian and 500 AD can give a definite answer.

I think it highly depends on the region.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Greek_and_Phoenician_Colonies_in_The_Iberian_Penin sula.png/800px-Greek_and_Phoenician_Colonies_in_The_Iberian_Penin sula.png

We know that some regions were Celtic and others were not, some spoke Indo-European languages and others did not...but we know little or nothing on how they differed genetically from one to another.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I'm sure Viriato will say what a number of people in this thread have already said/and or implied: That it is the conquest of an older population movement done predominately by sea.

I have the further East you go the more lime NA ancestry comes from the Moorish period.

Not necessarily by the sea, though it could be.

When looking at the Iberian peninsula from space we can see clearly a pattern:

http://images.spaceref.com/modis/image04032012_500m.jpg

The West has always been more greeny, fruitful and propicious for either hunter gatherers or early farmers, rather than the arid and more inauspicious south and center of Iberia. Plus it had contact with the sea and populations always tend to gather around either the sea or rivers.

The most important mégalithique sites in Iberia are all in Portugal for some reason.

Some of the tribes that existed in Iberia might have come initially from places as distant as eastern europe so I don't see why we should exclude the hypothesis of migrations for the north of africa, which is only 14 km away from the strait of Gibraltar.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Not necessarily by the sea, though it could be.

When looking at the Iberian peninsula from space we can see clearly a pattern:

http://images.spaceref.com/modis/image04032012_500m.jpg

The West has always been more greeny, fruitful and propicious for either hunter gatherers or early farmers, rather than the arid and more inauspicious south and center of Iberia. Plus it had contact with the sea and populations always tend to gather around either the sea or rivers.

The most important mégalithique sites in Iberia are all in Portugal for some reason.

Some of the tribes that existed in Iberia might have come initially from places as distant as eastern europe so I don't see why we should exclude the hypothesis of migrations for the north of africa, which is only 14 km away from the strait of Gibraltar.

I say by sea because it also explains Asturias and Cantabria. Mass population movement is quicker and easier by coast hopping and by way of rivers such as the Mino that leads from the sea to deep inland. There are no geographical barriers when you coast hop and use navigatable rivers.

[Morena]

This doesn’t bother me, I’m Canarian descent, I already have North Africa from another source as well. But I know how some Iberians feel about it, so I wouldn’t push the issue.

It is what it is.

I don't think the issue is that there is NA. I think the problem is that it doesn't match what we know from history. The more I think about it, the stranger this whole thing. Wouldn't it make more sense for Moorish admixture to be found in the east and south? I mean, how is it that Basque country, which was under Moorish control for about fifty years have nearly 0 admixture, while Galiccia, which was under occupation exactly 0 years, have 11%? Logically, it makes no sense. Even if you take my theory of refugees, there is no reason why they would all head to the NW.

You don't think it's odd?


I don't know, like I said we have very little knowledge concerning pre-Roman Iberian tribes and we had a staggering amount of them.

Just a "small" list:
:snip:

By the way, it is super incomplete because I am not in the mood to copy\paste more, I didn't even include the Para-Celts\Pre-Celtic Indo-Europeans tribes of Iberia. We will only understand when we get to know more how ancient Iberians were genetically from one region to another in different periods of time.

You didn't have to do all that. Simply stating that we don't know because we have little genetic/origin information about the pre-Roman Iberian tribes, of which number in the hundreds, would have sufficed.


I'm sure Viriato will say what a number of people in this thread have already said/and or implied: That it is the consequence of an older NA population movement done predominately by sea.

I believe the further East you go the more likely NA ancestry comes from the Moorish period (predominately)


I say by sea because it also explains Asturias and Cantabria. Mass population movement is quicker and easier by coast hopping and by way of rivers such as the Mino that leads from the sea to deep inland. There are no geographical barriers when you coast hop and use navigatable rivers.

You can draw a line along the coast from one continent to the other. I think it makes the most sense too.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I don't think the issue is that there is NA. I think the problem is that it doesn't match what we know from history. The more I think about it, the stranger this whole thing. Wouldn't it make more sense for Moorish admixture to be found in the east and south? I mean, how is it that Basque country, which was under Moorish control for about fifty years have nearly 0 admixture, while Galiccia, which was under occupation exactly 0 years, have 11%? Logically, it makes no sense. Even if you take my theory of refugees, there is no reason why they would all head to the NW.

You don't think it's odd?



You didn't have to do all that. Simply stating that we don't know because we have little genetic/origin information about the pre-Roman Iberian tribes, of which number in the hundreds, would have sufficed.





You can draw a line along the coast from one continent to the other. I think it makes the most sense too.

The Basque lands had never been under Moorish control.

[Aren]

Why is what people wrote several hundreds years ago matter more than actual DNA tested? I can think of many reasons why it's higher in NW Iberia. Maybe a group of Moriscos who managed to settle in some small villages? Bottlenecking? Small part movements that weren't documented? There are many probabilities that maybe are not documented at all.

[Thot Whisperer]

I don't think so. I don't match anyone that is from the Moroccan cities where Andalusian familian have settled. Moreover, my Iberian component isn't really higher than the Moroccan average although I'm 1/8 from Northwestern Morocco.
My Y-ancestors indeed came from Iberia - my Y-DNA matches are Spaniards and Portuguese, but I rather think it's much older than Al Andalus era.
Romanized Iberians are a good guess - it's a historical fact that Romanized Iberians were a non negligible component in Mauritania Tingitania's cities, not to forget that some Iberians crossed the Strait in Phoenician times.... but I even think it's much older.

I give some arguments in that thread : https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235873-G-Z27232-a-North-African-clade

I’ve always believed the inquisition was somewhat of a genocide but if you invade other people’s countries you deserve to suffer the consequences that come afterwards when you’re on the losing side, has there been dna studies on “Andalusian” families, primarily their y dna I mean if they’ve been in Morocco for the last 5 hundred shouldn’t they be mixed with the rest of the Moroccans

[GiCa]

It's not resolved because there has to be a clarification on how regions that weren't conquered by the Moors have NA to the point that it's more so than regions that was under Muslim rule for centuries. That just can't be ignored and the speculation made in the study that there was a mass movement of people with NA admixture into Galicia from Portugal after the fact doesn't make any sense.

The clear reason is that Portugal kingdom didn t expel those from the Califate. Thus moriscos by walking just went more in north Portugal even if it wasnt Califate land.

This is very simple

[caviezel]

So what's the % of people in Portugal with a natural light brown complexion? Or do I have to travel there in low season to see by myself?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

The clear reason is that Portugal kingdom didn t expel those from the Califate. Thus moriscos by walking just went more in north Portugal even if it wasnt Califate land.

This is very simple

Your explanation is retarded. It would be a massive migration to an already densely populated region and to throw another monkey wrench Asturias and Cantabria have high NA also compared to regions that had been under Muslim rule.

So Iberians moved south during the reconquest but on the west coast they moved north? It makes no sense. The authors of the study are trying to shoe horn their admixture time results instead of considering they're in error. A previous study (Moorjani study. Spelling is off) claimed it could potentially go further back. I believe as far back as 200BC but I'm not sure.im on my phone. I don't believe dating admixture analysis is fine tuned with such drastic results. I like the idea of looking at ancient samples and comparing them to modern populations as a better method for now.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Why is what people wrote several hundreds years ago matter more than actual DNA tested? I can think of many reasons why it's higher in NW Iberia. Maybe a group of Moriscos who managed to settle in some small villages? Bottlenecking? Small part movements that weren't documented? There are many probabilities that maybe are not documented at all.

500 years to 11% across a densely populated region from a small number of people? That's not reasonable and the Spanish state was very good at keeping tabs on people of a Jewish and Morisco background (there were army captains who were shunned being allowed into prestigious religious organizations because they had a Jewish ancestor, for example.) The inquisition records are notoriously anal about details. If there was a Morisco community in Galicia there would be mention of it in the records.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

So what's the % of people in Portugal with a natural light brown complexion? Or do I have to travel there in low season to see by myself?

Congratulations. You're Whiter than the Portuguese. Now you can do something with your life instead of consistently getting banned for trolling over the issue and whinning on another forum created for your insecurity and those of like mind.

[caviezel]

Congratulations. You're Whiter than the Portuguese. Now you can do something with your life instead of consistently getting banned for trolling over the issue and whinning on another forum created for your insecurity and those of like mind.
The last time I was banned it was 2011 and it wasn't about Portuguese. Now why don't you make me a donation to buy me a ticket to Portugal? This time of the year prices are lower.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

At last the Moor enigma was answered ultimately.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

The last time I was banned it was 2011 and it wasn't about Portuguese. Now why don't you make me a donation to buy me a ticket to Portugal? This time of the year prices are lower.

Men don't ask for hand outs. Get a job, hippie.

Was it harassing Spaniards? You've been banned a number of times under different names.

[ADonkeyBrain]

It's interesting and not too surprising. Leaving modern data that pointed towards it aside (which this is too, ultimately), compared to the Iberia_BA samples we already had a while ago you needed something Celtic-like and something Levantine/North African-like to get to modern non-Basque Iberians. aDNA will clarify things more (who knows, maybe it will turn out to be pre-Moorish after all) and keep in mind that every single region, even the far northern Baltics has had decent post-BA input.

[Sebbo]

Too much Atlantic influence.
Try these:

https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14212618_1009469729151358_6705053827337478907_n.jp g?oh=37eab63c08e70a94d10e36e91ea91591&oe=5B4E6274
https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13620905_126396171126973_7117117945240289280_n.jpg ?oh=b00c08eaad5f5b41c497c95f6cb40ea5&oe=5B2FAAD0
https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740378_650097688532853_5411865621395792844_n.jpg ?oh=fc835dfb5b60d042ccaaf8d073933717&oe=5B44DD78

Where are these men from :) ?

[ÁGUIA]

Where are these men from :) ?

More important is to ask why are they being posted in some random forum. At the very least is morally questionable.
These are simply people whose pics are being posted in here without any knowledge of theirs. To be meticulously examined/ sometimes ridiculed by some folks online.
Seems like a bliss to some.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Another issue is that if there had been a mass migration of Portuguese to Galicia then the NA in Galicians wouldn't be similar to the Portuguese. It would be less. It would have been diluted when mixed with a population that didn't have NA.

It would only make sense if the Galician population was genocided and replaced by Portuguese, which would be absurd.

[Autrigón]

500 years to 11% across a densely populated region from a small number of people? That's not reasonable and the Spanish state was very good at keeping tabs on people of a Jewish and Morisco background (there were army captains who were shunned being allowed into prestigious religious organizations because they had a Jewish ancestor, for example.) The inquisition records are notoriously anal about details. If there was a Morisco community in Galicia there would be mention of it in the records.Exactly, the numbers of that years are very well documented (and even painted). The moors lived in their own ghettos, had their own closed communities and they weren't allowed to have high positions in society, army, etc. They worked as builders, poor peasants and they were marginalized.

Finally the Spanish Kingdom decided to spell them out. Why? because of this:
-They continued to be a closed community who didn't want to integrate.
-To prevent a potential alliance between Moriscos and Turkish. They were seen as enemies for the country
-Some kind of economical crisis in Spain wich caused that Christians saw them as annoying group.
-Radicalization of Catholic Christians against Muslims and Protestants.

As you can see there are some similarities with the situation of Nazi Germany with the Jews.

It's well documented that between 270,000 and 300,000 Moriscos were expelled.

The consequences...entire areas were completely depopulated and was necessary to repopulate those areas with Spaniards from other regions.
Even some areas of southern Spain were repopulated with catholic Germans, Austrians, Swiss, French, Flemish and Irish refugees in their religion wars against the English.

In any case even if the Moriscos hadn't been expelled it's impossible that few thousands have an important genetic impact in a population.

Moriscos shipment in Valencia, Pere Oromig (1616)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Embarco_moriscos_en_el_Grao_de_valencia.jpg

[Leto]

Why doesn't the study say anything about the Jews in Spain? Supposedly 20% of all Spaniards have Jewish Y-DNA markers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#Permanence_of_Sephardim_in_Spain

[Thot Whisperer]

At last the Moor enigma was answered ultimately.

You should be more concerned about your Albanistan E1B1 boy

[caviezel]

Exactly, the numbers of that years are very well documented (and even painted). The moors lived in their own ghettos, had their own closed communities and they weren't allowed to have high positions in society, army, etc. They worked as builders, poor peasants and they were marginalized.

Finally the Spanish Kingdom decided to spell them out. Why? because of this:
-They continued to be a closed community who didn't want to integrate.
-To prevent a potential alliance between Moriscos and Turkish. They were seen as enemies for the country
-Some kind of economical crisis in Spain wich caused that Christians saw them as annoying group.
-Radicalization of Catholic Christians against Muslims and Protestants.

As you can see there are some similarities with the situation of Nazi Germany with the Jews.

It's well documented that between 270,000 and 300,000 Moriscos were expelled.

The consequences...entire areas were completely depopulated and were necessary to repopulate those areas with Spaniards from other regions.
Even some areas of southern Spain were repopulated with catholic Germans, Austrians, Swiss, French, Flemish and Irish refugees in their religion wars against the English.

In any case even if the Moriscos hadn't been expelled it's impossible that few thousands have an important genetic impact in a population.

Moriscos shipment in Valencia, Pere Oromig (1616)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Embarco_moriscos_en_el_Grao_de_valencia.jpg
Are you saying the study is a forgery carefully crafted by the Prince Of Darkness (George Soros)?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Why doesn't the study say anything about the Jews in Spain? Supposedly 20% of all Spaniards have Jewish Y-DNA markers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#Permanence_of_Sephardim_in_Spain

I don't know but it did remind me of an example of how well kept Spanish records are - in this case legal records are. Some time in the 16th century there was a descendant of Jews living in Ourense, Galicia (where my family is from) who complained to a judge about a guy who kept harassing him about his family's Jewish background. The judge told the guy to stop bothering him and I guess that was the end of it because there is nothing else written about it.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Are you saying the study is a forgery carefully crafted by the Prince Of Darkness (George Soros)?

He's not even saying the study is wrong. He's saying something that the author's specifically stated they were speculating on doesn't make much sense to him. It helps to actually look at the study instead of looking like a fool.

[caviezel]

He's not even saying the study is wrong. He's saying something that the author's specifically stated they were speculating on doesn't make much sense to him. It helps to actually look at the study instead of looking like a fool.
I didn't know you were a mind reader to know exactly his opinion, cucklonel.

[Iloko]

It affirms the 23andme results I've seen where those of Iberian descent score some residual 'Italian' and 'British&Irish' on ancestry comp.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I didn't know you were a mind reader to know exactly his opinion, cucklonel.

You don't need to be a mind reader when you have the power of English comprehension. He was responding to a specific post of mine. Naturally you take that into account when reading what a person writes. It also helps to understand the content that is being written.

I don't think you have to remind me that I fucked your mother to the embarrassment of your father. We're all trying to forget it and move on with our lives. I've turned a new leaf. My days of cuckolding greasy wops is at an end.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Admixture dates corresponds pretty well with the first half of the Moorish rule. Now, it is safe to assume that Moors did contributed to the modern Iberian genepool.

https://i.imgur.com/ucWW7OR.png

It's not anything new the assumption that Moors contributed to the modern Iberian genetic make up given the extension in time and territory of their presence, I would say it is something well established.

Regarding this matter it is more a question of estimating the extend of that contribution and so far none (this study included) have provided suficient evidence.

1. To begin with, so far the samples are way to small, representing not even 0.001% of the populations (this applies to all populational groups tested, not specifically Iberians).
1.2. Without having much larger samples, we can not really draw an average genetic profile of large populational groups or how much internal variation there is.
1.3. I've never seen individual autosomic tested indivuals scoring that much NA as 11%, wich makes it all more suspicious.
2. Methodology: for those who read the entire article it is clear that the methodology applied to determine the estimated admixture dates are pseudo-scientific, calculated by a software that was programmed to work in a certain way, conditioned by certain assumptions agreed by the authors that might not be valid.
2.1. Amazingly it did not ocurred to the team of experts that a part (can be the largest, can be the smallest or can be like 50/50) of NA genetic markers could be pre-existant among some groups(it is known high frequencies of E1b1b1b in areas of Galicia and Cantabria that were never in contact with Moors), therefore their model of ancient clusters used to infer the supposed ulterior admixtures would be again based on false premises.

In short, too many ifs, conjectures and questionable premises to allow them to advance with speculative theories that contradict historical evidence and ignore previously established data, when under the present means/resources there's just one method to establish conclusions out of the realm of pseudo-science: to compare dna samples of medieval pre-moorish Iberia with modern ones.

To make it even shorter, one can just travel around Andalusia and Galicia and see in loco where the Moors were likely to have left a higher genetic impact. Still the the only reliable and large sample I know of.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Why is what people wrote several hundreds years ago matter more than actual DNA tested? I can think of many reasons why it's higher in NW Iberia. Maybe a group of Moriscos who managed to settle in some small villages? Bottlenecking? Small part movements that weren't documented? There are many probabilities that maybe are not documented at all.

Why does the authors' speculations (which they acknowledge as being speculation) matter more than the written record? The question isn't whether there is NA ancestry. The question is why and their speculations doesn't match the written record and nor is it mathematically feasible within such a short period of time where most people lived their entire lives within a few miles.

[Sikeliot]

I think given that there was Phoenician contact with Iberia, they needed a proper "East Med" population to capture this and by failing to include Lebanon as a point of reference, some of that East Med got sucked into Italian clusters.

I do not believe Iberians are really 20% Italian.

[Bobby Martnen]

I think given that there was Phoenician contact with Iberia, they needed a proper "East Med" population to capture this and by failing to include Lebanon as a point of reference, some of that East Med got sucked into Italian clusters.

I do not believe Iberians are really 20% Italian.

Agreed. Iberians are much darker and more Southern than the Southern French, but they don't really pull close to Italians, they pull south but in the opposite direction.