Haplogroup Q among Turkic peoples

[Shubotai]

The Turkic languages consist of an eastern (Common Turkic) and a western branch (Oghur Turkic) which are further divided into six branches: Oghuz, Arghu, Kipchak, Oghur, Karluk and Siberian Turkic as this appears in the following scheme[1]:
Proto-Turkic

Common Turkic (Eastern)


Oghuz


Kipchak


Karluk


Siberian


Arghu

Oghur Turkic (Western)


Chuvash


Bulgar (extinct)


Khazar? (extinct)

Indicatively, the following map can be seen: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/1/1e/20171201152517%21Lenguas_t%C3%BArquicas.png
The separation between eastern and western branches could have been as early as the division of the Göktürk Empire (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nV1KA2UoJIQ/WoRLvrpLWDI/AAAAAAAAS0o/PHQ-VZmN5cwvjqanL0KsrBgwN0JHZ99uQCLcBGAs/s640/Map_CentralAsia_AD600_BWB.jpg). The Orkhon inscriptions are already in Common Turkic. The westernmost part of the khaganate was controlled by the Khazars.


The predominant y-dna haplogroup among Turkmen people has been found to be Q-M25[2][3]. In Turkey, according to a research, among 523 samples 9 Q*, 1 Q-M25, 4 R-M73 were found [4]. However this haplogroup is found with a frequency of 13% among Afshar Turks in Turkey[5], whereas it could be even higher among Turkomans. Azerbaijani Turks also display varying frequencies of y-dna Q from 1-10% in Northern Iran[6]. Turkmenistan is also the source region for the population which turkified Anatolia and Azerbaijan. Therefore it is gathered that the original haplogroup among Oghuz Turks was probably Q-M25.

Tatars and Bashkirs display high frequencies (up to 15%) for haplogroup Q[7][8]. For quite a while, the predominant y-dna haplogroup among Kipchak Turks was thought to be R1b-M73, but this subsequently has been overturned, as pointed out by Behar et al. 2010, it is actually Q. The prevalent Q subclade among Karakalpaks is Q-M346[9]. Haplogroup Q* is found with a frequency 48% among the Kangly tribe of Kazakhs[10].

The most frequent clade of Q-M242 among Uzbeks and Uyghurs, the two parts of the Karluk family is Q-M346, with the occasional existence of other clades.

Siberian Turks belong overwhelmingly to the Q-M346 branch, whilst R-M73 is also present among all of them, alas in very low frequencies, and as was pointed earlier this might actually prove to be Q-M25[11][12][13].

Arghu turkic is a divergent branch of Common Turkic and its sole represenatitve, Khalaj has a small population in Iran which has apparently not been tested. However, the Ghilji Pashtun tribe of neighbouring Afghanistan, which purportedly stems to a large degree from Khalaj Turks, displays a high frequency of Q-L275.[14]

Ashkenazi Jewish carry 5% of the y-dna Q-M378, which is a subclade of Q-L275 and given their origins in Eastern Europe, where they could actually refer to Khazar ancestry, since Khazars had a quite powerful state in the Ukrainian steppes with Judaism as the main religion [15]. In Bulgaria, we also have cases of Q-L275 which are more numerous than other Q subclades[16]. Bulgars were an oghuric speaking tribe.

The little samples among Chuvash belonging to haplogroup Q-M242 belong to the Q-M25 subclade.

The phylogeny of haplogroup Q-M242 and its subclades with their defining mutations according to the 2018 ISOGG tree is presented below[17]:
Q-M242 M242

Q-F903 (Q1)


Q-F1096 F1096, F1215



Q-NWT01 NWT01




Q-M120 M120, M265/N14



Q-M25 M25, M143




Q-L712 L712


Q-M346 L56, L57, M346, L528



Q-L53 L53




Q-L54 L54





Q-CTS11969 CTS11969, M930






Q-M3 M3







Q-M19 M19






Q-L804 L804





Q-CTS1780 CTS1780, M981, M971, Z780





Q-L330 L330



Q-F835 F835, L940



Q-F1161 F1161




Q-L527 L527

Q-L275 L275, L314 (Q2)


Q-M378 M378/Page100, L214, L215/Page82



Q-FGC1774 FGC1774, Y2016




Q-245 L245


Q-Y1150 Y1150

Therefore, it can be seen that there is a general resemblance between the phylogeny of haplogroup Q-M242 in the Old World and the classification scheme of the Turkic languages. Specifically, Q-F903 could match to Common Turkic while Q-L275 is a much better match for Oghur Turkic. Furthermore, Q-M25 could relate to Oghuz and Kipchak branches, while Q-M346 correlates more with the Karluk and Siberian turkic branches. A subclade of Q-M346, namely Q-L330 is known to have close correlation with the Yeniseian language family.

It is subsequently proposed that the various subclades of haplogroup Q-M242 had a prominent role in the diversification of the Turkic languages and the expansion of Turkic speaking peoples[18].

[1] Lars Johanson (1998) http://www.turkiclanguages.com/www/classification.html
[2] http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/3_2016-antr-p-086_096-print.pdf
[3] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03176-z
[4] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1031-4
[5] https://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI3328565/
[6] http://images.biomedsearch.com/22815981/pone.0041252.t001.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIBOKHYOLP 4MBMRGQ&Expires=1528243200&Signature=bMWznO9D3pcoka9mUyNRNhVTWrA%3D http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Ancient-migratory-events-in-middle/22815981.html
[7] http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/TurkicGenetics.htm http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/KazanTatarsY_DNA.gif
[8] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1134%2FS0026893316060029
[9] https://images.nature.com/full/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v23/n10/extref/ejhg2014285x5.pdf
[10] http://docplayer.ru/60705358-Federalnoe-gosudarstvennoe-byudzhetnoe-uchrezhdenie-nauki-institut-obshchey-genetiki-im-n-i-vavilova-rossiyskoy-akademii-nauk-zhabagin-maksat-kizatovich.html
[11] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/
[12] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276666
[13] https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201164
[14] https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-016-0870-2
[15] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313459023_Phylogeography_of_human_Y-chromosome_haplogroup_Q3-L275_from_an_academiccitizen_science_collaboration
[16] http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
[17] https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpQ.html
[18] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319526529_Dispersals_of_the_Siberian_Y-chromosome_haplogroup_Q_in_Eurasia

[Kaspias]

.

Thank you for the information you provided!

I'm aware of the Yeniseian connection of L330, but I personally wonder how it ended up in Bulgaria(Ethnic Balkan Turk, only Turkish speaker). If I would ask your personal opinion what would you say about it? It seems to be not found among Oghuz. What about Crimean Tatars? Or any other community migrated to west during medieval or before?

[Illyrius]

I wonder what Haplogroup was ertugurl

[Pine]

Ashkenazi Jewish carry 5% of the y-dna Q-M378, which is a subclade of Q-L275 and given their origins in Eastern Europe, where they could actually refer to Khazar ancestry, since Khazars had a quite powerful state in the Ukrainian steppes with Judaism as the main religion [15].



It's impossible that Q-Y2200(The Ashkenazi Q subclade) is Khazar in origin. It's a typical Western Jewish clade, as it left behind Italian descendants at the start of the exile period. It could not have arrived through Eastern Europe. Furthermore, all Jewish groups: Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrachi belong to to some Q subclade. Q-Y2200, in particular, also has Sephardic Jews.

[Bender1999]

It's impossible that Q-Y2200(The Ashkenazi Q subclade) is Khazar in origin. It's a typical Western Jewish clade, as it left behind Italian descendants at the start of the exile period. It could not have arrived through Eastern Europe. Furthermore, all Jewish groups: Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrachi belong to to some Q subclade. Q-Y2200, in particular, also has Sephardic Jews.

Q is definitely originated somewhere in Eurasian steppes. Idk how it came to jewish people, but it havnt a jewish origin.

[Bender1999]

It's impossible that Q-Y2200(The Ashkenazi Q subclade) is Khazar in origin. It's a typical Western Jewish clade, as it left behind Italian descendants at the start of the exile period. It could not have arrived through Eastern Europe. Furthermore, all Jewish groups: Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrachi belong to to some Q subclade. Q-Y2200, in particular, also has Sephardic Jews.

Q is definitely originated somewhere in Eurasian steppes. Idk how it came to jewish people, but it havnt a jewish origin.

[Pine]

Q is definitely originated somewhere in Eurasian steppes. Idk how it came to jewish people, but it havnt a jewish origin.

Q predates the Jewish people. According to your reasoning, since Y-Adam is African, no one can be anything but African now.

[Bender1999]

Q predates the Jewish people.

No, maybe in a parallel universe. Early IEs, Iranics, Finno Ugrics, Turkics and Siberian people have it naturally.

[Pine]

No, maybe in a parallel universe. Early IEs, Iranics, Finno Ugrics, Turkics and Siberian people have it naturally.

Do you speak English?

[Bender1999]

Do you speak English?

No tagalog.

[Shubotai]

Probably from Oghuz Turkish regardless, but I wouldn't rule out older Turkic tribes that came from the north like Cumans, Pechenegs or even Bulgars. I think Crimean Tatars moved immediately into Turkey recently and hadn't made it that south in the west coast of the Black Sea. I am not sure. The mobilization of Central Asian groups was so great that we find Q-M346 even in Comoros Islands.

Genetic history of the Turkish people, shows that the common ancestor Ertuğrul of the Kayı tribe, belonged to haplogroup: R1a=6.9% - Typical of Central Asian, Caucasus, Eastern Europeans and Indo-Aryan people.

The subclade Q2a1 was acquired by a population ancestral to Ashkenazi Jewish. Ukraine has a certain frequency of Q around 0.5-4% inherited from Khazars, Huns, Tatars or Cumans etc. The Khazars in Ukraine had converted to Qaraite Judaism. Or maybe some time Qaraite Jews were mistaken for descendants of Khazars there. In any case, the origin of Q-L275 is of course in south-west or south Asia, where is the biggest diversity and frequency. But Ukraine has some Q-L275, supposedly from Khazars, Hazara in Afghanistan also have Q-L275, so there is at least some relationship between this haplogroup and Khazars. There are more details in this research Phylogeography of human Y-chromosome haplogroup Q3-L275 from an academic/citizen science collaboration (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Frequency-distribution-map-of-haplogroup-Q3-L275-a-Data-from-indigenous-populations-from_fig2_313459023)

I have to add that I hold only Q-M25 to have a genetic relationship with Turkic language family, or call it Oghur/Oghuz if you will, while referring to the other subclades of Q only as per to their occurrence in various Turkic groups. Q is a very old haplogroup and spread across many ethnic groups.

[Pine]

Probably from Oghuz Turkish regardless, but I wouldn't rule out older Turkic tribes that came from the north like Cumans, Pechenegs or even Bulgars. I think Crimean Tatars moved immediately into Turkey recently and hadn't made it that south in the west coast of the Black Sea. I am not sure. The mobilization of Central Asian groups was so great that we find Q-M346 even in Comoros Islands.

Genetic history of the Turkish people, shows that the common ancestor Ertuğrul of the Kayı tribe, belonged to haplogroup: R1a=6.9% - Typical of Central Asian, Caucasus, Eastern Europeans and Indo-Aryan people.

The subclade Q2a1 was acquired by a population ancestral to Ashkenazi Jewish. Ukraine has a certain frequency of Q around 0.5-4% inherited from Khazars, Huns, Tatars or Cumans etc. The Khazars in Ukraine had converted to Qaraite Judaism. Or maybe some time Qaraite Jews were mistaken for descendants of Khazars there. In any case, the origin of Q-L275 is of course in south-west or south Asia, where is the biggest diversity and frequency. But Ukraine has some Q-L275, supposedly from Khazars, Hazara in Afghanistan also have Q-L275, so there is at least some relationship between this haplogroup and Khazars. There are more details in this research Phylogeography of human Y-chromosome haplogroup Q3-L275 from an academic/citizen science collaboration (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Frequency-distribution-map-of-haplogroup-Q3-L275-a-Data-from-indigenous-populations-from_fig2_313459023)

I have to add that I hold only Q-M25 to have a genetic relationship with Turkic language family, or call it Oghur/Oghuz if you will, while referring to the other subclades of Q only as per to their occurrence in various Turkic groups. Q is a very old haplogroup and spread across many ethnic groups.

This never happened.

[Bender1999]

This never happened.

Some historians think so. Khazars was merged in Caucasian/Turkic peoples.

[Bosniensis]

Kaspias would like us all more if we had q haplogroup

[Pine]

Some historians think so. Khazars was merged in Caucasian/Turkic peoples.

Khazars would've converted to Rabbinical Judaism, if they convert, not Karaite Judaism.

[Bender1999]

This never happened.

Some historians think so. Khazars was merged in Caucasian/Turkic peoples.

[Pine]

I'll help you guys out. Q was in the Middle East by the Bronze Age. Most Jews under Q, fall under Q-L245, which has a Bronze Age presence in the Levant (at worst we'll be surprised by an Iron Age arrival). Q-L245 in the Levant predates the ethnogenesis of the Jewish people.

[Illyrius]

Q is brother Haplogroup of R right guys?

[Bender1999]

I'll help you guys out. Q was in the Middle East by the Bronze Age. Most Jews under Q, fall under Q-L245, which has a Bronze Age presence in the Levant (at worst we'll be surprised by an Iron Age arrival). Q-L245 in the Levant predates the ethnogenesis of the Jewish people.

I dont deny the presence of some Q in Levant, like E in Central Asia. Why not, it’s possible. But Near easterners, also Jews, has other haplogroups, E, J1, J2, T and even R1a/b.

[Pine]

I dont deny the presence of some Q in Levant, like E in Central Asia. Why not, it’s possible. But Near easterners, also Jews, has other haplogroups, E, J1, J2, T and even R1a/b.

Ashkenazi Q splits in the Mediterranean over 1000 years before the alleged Khazar conversion. That's why it's impossible.

[Bender1999]

Ashkenazi Q splits in the Mediterranean over 1000 years before the alleged Khazar conversion. That's why it's impossible.

Iranians or Scythians, other migration from eurasian steppe but Q isn’t definitely Near Eastern haplogroup. It could come from Iranians, who has also a history in Near East, honestly longer than Turkics and at least the same importance like Jews or Arabs.

[Kaspias]

Kaspias would like us all more if we had q haplogroup

No why :D

[Pine]

Iranians or Scythians, other migration from eurasian steppe but Q isn’t definitely Near Eastern haplogroup. It could come from Iranians, who has also a history in Near East, honestly longer than Turkics and at least the same importance like Jews or Arabs.

I don't care what you consider Q. It most likely was in the Levant during the Bronze Age.

[Bender1999]

No why :D

Even he would be the descendant of Bumin Kaghan, Bosniensis is just a troll posting nonsense...

[Bender1999]

I don't care what you consider Q. It most likely was in the Levant during the Bronze Age.

Ok bro no Problem, i don’t care about you opinion :thumb001:

[samario]

Isn't Q sort of like a Mongoloid haplogroup?

[Synapsid]

Isn't Q sort of like a Mongoloid haplogroup?

Its ANE. Peaks in Amerids