Who should be the "Greek" component on genetic testing -- mainland or islanders?

[Sikeliot]

In my view, when "Greek" is comprised of mainland Greeks, as it is on 23andme and Ancestry.com, everyone else's results get messed up.

1. Cypriots end up scoring more Italian than Greek.

2. Greek islanders and more isolated regions of the mainland come back with mostly "Italian" and wonder why they aren't scoring Greek. Most of these people likely have no recent Italian ancestry, but because they have insufficient NE European ancestry to score "Greek" which is set as Slavic-influenced mainlanders, their result comes up Italian because that component then is a better fit for their ancestry.

3. Southern Italians' large historical Greek ancestry is not captured either, because of the same reason -- the only southern Italians scoring "Greek" when it is set at mainlanders are those who have a more recent Greek origin. The only "Greek" scored by Aegean islanders and southern Italians then seems to be whatever Greek ancestry they have from the mainland within the last 1000 or so years, after which point Slavic admixture occurred.

4. Greek ancestry of Balkan Slavic people is overestimated because of a greater overlap between them and mainland Greeks than between Balkan Slavs and Aegean islanders.

Honestly in my view on these tests "Greek" should be set as islanders, most likely whichever island has less MENA input -- probably one of the Cyclades. Slavic input is part of what it means today to be a modern Greek so that's unavoidable.

As a result of this everyone's results will make more sense:

1. South Italians will overall score more Greek than Italian, reflecting that a significant portion of their ancestry is Aegean,
2. Aegean islanders will score mostly Greek themselves, and all of the Italian will be reduced,
3. Greek mainlanders will find a large minority of their ancestry coming up as Eastern European/Slavic, and the rest as Greek,

I think setting "Greek" as mainlanders is simply to hide the true amount of Slavic ancestry present in Greece. However, the issue with doing this is it messes up everyone else's results, causing Greek islanders to come out as Italians, southern Italians to come up with much less Greek than what they should be scoring, and so on.

You cannot have both mainland and islanders in a large "Greek" cluster either because then it obscures the genetic differences within Greece, and someone from Thrace will come out the same as a Dodecanese. So it has to be one or the other.

[Voskos]

Maniot Greeks are the purest Greeks according to byzantine texts and modern population genetics.

[Sikeliot]

Maniot Greeks are the purest Greeks according to byzantine texts and modern population genetics.

Using Maniots would make all of them (Aegean islanders, Sicilians, mainland Greeks) come out mostly Greek but with Slavic, MENA, etc. admixture depending on where they are from. But I personally think the Cyclades might be a better choice than Mani.

Either way I definitely do not think it should be Thessalians, Macedonians, etc. because then Aegean islanders come up as Italians.

[Tauromachos]

Central Greeks,Maniots,Cyclade Islanders and Thessalians should make up the Greek component.

[Livin]

Maniots IMO but some of them have some foreign elements during middle ages.

Cretans also including.

[Sikeliot]

Central Greeks,Maniots,Cyclade Islanders and Thessalians should make up the Greek component.

Not Thessalians. That would lead to an overstatement of Italian ancestry in the Aegean islands.

I could see using Mani, Tsakonia, Attica, Cyclades, and Crete.

[MercifulServant]

Mainlanders

[Sikeliot]

Mainlanders

Why?

[MercifulServant]

Why?

Because arent they the majority of the greek population?

[Sikeliot]

Because arent they the majority of the greek population?

Yes.

But is it more accurate to have Greek islanders coming up as Italian, West Asian and only minimally Greek? Or is it more accurate to have mainlanders come up as a mixture of "Aegean" Greek and Slavic?

Greek islanders taking the test are often confused to find out they aren't coming up as Greeks.

[MercifulServant]

Yes.

But is it more accurate to have Greek islanders coming up as Italian, West Asian and only minimally Greek? Or is it more accurate to have mainlanders come up as a mixture of "Aegean" Greek and Slavic?

Greek islanders taking the test are often confused to find out they aren't coming up as Greeks.

Greek islanders have much more west asian and italian like dna then mainlanders have slavic. The slavic in mainlanders is pretty low.

[Sikeliot]

Greek islanders have much more west asian and italian like dna then mainlanders have slavic. The slavic in mainlanders is pretty low.

What happens now on 23andme is that Aegean islands and Sicilians come up like 10-15% West Asian, and the rest Italian and Balkan. If you made Greek as islanders I think the mainlanders would be more than 10-15% Slavic.

[Freeroostah]

If we put Islanders as the standard Greek component, the rest of 90% Greeks will be Romanians ;)

[Tauromachos]

If we put Islanders as the standard Greek component, the rest of 90% Greeks will be Romanians ;)

Both only Mainlanders and only Islanders would be bad.

The best would

Be Central Greek,Cyclade Islanders,Maniots as median between Mainland and Islands

Thessalians as a median between North and South Greece

[Sikeliot]

If we put Islanders as the standard Greek component, the rest of 90% Greeks will be Romanians ;)

Which is better to you: that, or to have Aegean islanders come up as Italian?

[Sikeliot]

Both only Mainlanders and only Islanders would be bad.

The best would

Be Central Greek,Cyclade Islanders,Maniots as median between Mainland and Islands

Thessalians as a median between North and South Greece



I don't agree with putting Thessalians in there. I think the "Greek" component could be best done as the least Slavic mainlanders (of which Thessaly is absolutely not), and the least West Asian islanders.

[Tauromachos]

I don't agree with putting Thessalians in there. I think the "Greek" component could be best done as the least Slavic mainlanders (of which Thessaly is absolutely not), and the least West Asian islanders.

In general yes

But i doubt that Thessalian are realy that much Slavic

And they are common denominator between the Northern and more Southern shifted Greeks

Some Sicilians and Greek Islanders get Thessalian in their top 10 as well.

In general the best poxy for Greek can only be a mix of Mainland and Island Greeks and of course not the more outlying regions from both of these

[wvwvw]

Which is better to you: that, or to have Aegean islanders come up as Italian?

If the NE European in Greeks is Slavic then why did the Armenoi sample from Crete had as much NE as mainland Greeks.


Also don’t islanders and Southern islanders have some near eastern that the ancient samples lacked?

[lacreme]

If you go by genetics, aren't the islanders the population with the biggest "preserved" amount of pre-IE ancestry/least IE influence in general ? If that's so then the best choice would be to have at least two distinct components .
If you put the starting point of the "original" Greek identity at the time that the whole area that is nowadays Greece spoke Greek and was completely "hellenised" then it's more reasonable to put the islanders as the "Greek" component as they didn't receive as much additional IE (gothic,slavic etc) influence as mainlanders did..
BUT if you did that wouldn't you need to count Pontic Greeks and Cypriots too ? Because even though they are very different genetically, they have a Greek identity for as long if not more (3000+ years ) than some parts of the modern Greek state

[Freeroostah]

Both only Mainlanders and only Islanders would be bad.

The best would

Be Central Greek,Cyclade Islanders,Maniots as median between Mainland and Islands

Thessalians as a median between North and South Greece

What about Peloponnesians as a whole? When it comes to genetics, they score somewhere between North and South. Places like Arcadia would be better imo

[Freeroostah]

Which is better to you: that, or to have Aegean islanders come up as Italian?

I think Arcadia, the heart of Peloponnesos, would be a good option

[Tauromachos]

What about Peloponnesians as a whole? When it comes to genetics, they score somewhere between North and South. Places like Arcadia would be better imo

Different places of Peloponnese could be good but not the ones with more Slavic

Tsakonians could b good as well

[Marmara]

Making islanders the main Greek component would also make Anatolian Greeks come out as more Greek I think.

[Rgvgjhvv]

What happens now on 23andme is that Aegean islands and Sicilians come up like 10-15% West Asian, and the rest Italian and Balkan. If you made Greek as islanders I think the mainlanders would be more than 10-15% Slavic.

Is there a concensus on what these % mean? Is it recent ancestry? Is it a more ancient ancestry? Is it just that the populations share some similar genetics with that region, but not necessarily related in a family sort of way?

[arkas]

There shouldn't be one component that all Greeks should be expected to adhere to. Who's to say that the native Greek DNA components found in different regions of Greece are going to be super similar in the first place, it may be that they actually are already distinguishable from each other.

[Tauromachos]

Making islanders the main Greek component would also make Anatolian Greeks come out as more Greek I think.

Again the best modell for Greek would

be a mix of different Island and Mainland things

[Sikeliot]

There shouldn't be one component that all Greeks should be expected to adhere to. Who's to say that the native Greek DNA components found in different regions of Greece are going to be super similar in the first place, it may be that they actually are already distinguishable from each other.

I agree, but to me it is more accurate and truthful to have say, Macedonians and Thessalians coming up with Slavic, than to make Aegean islanders come out like as if they're Italians and not Greek.

[Tauromachos]

There shouldn't be one component that all Greeks should be expected to adhere to. Who's to say that the native Greek DNA components found in different regions of Greece are going to be super similar in the first place, it may be that they actually are already distinguishable from each other.

There are common components which Greeks from all regions Mainlanders and Islanders often get in their top populations

For example Central Greek

[Sikeliot]

There are common components which Greeks from all regions Mainlanders and Islanders often get in their top populations

For example Central Greek

I think that is a combination of Attica and North Aegean or Cyclades.

[Myanthropologies]

I dont understand why you would think having South Italians score more Greek than Italian is anymore accurate. When people are taking these DNA tests, they don't care about some Greek islander mixture from thousands of years ago, they care about what their recent lineages are. Having them score more Greek than Italian will mislead them into believing they have recent Greek ancestry.

In order to avoid this, The "Greek" component should be maximized to all modern Greek groups, kind of like how a dozen of different components/people are thrown under "South Asian" on these tests.

[Myanthropologies]

I agree, but to me it is more accurate and truthful to have say, Macedonians and Thessalians coming up with Slavic, than to make Aegean islanders come out like as if they're Italians and not Greek.

You just WANT them to come up with Slavic and for south Italians to look more "ancient Greek" than them.

[arkas]

I agree, but to me it is more accurate and truthful to have say, Macedonians and Thessalians coming up with Slavic, than to make Aegean islanders come out like as if they're Italians and not Greek.

This is true.


There are common components which Greeks from all regions Mainlanders and Islanders often get in their top populations

For example Central Greek

To a degree, of course there are components that all Greeks share in common, but why not dissect even further if possible?

[Myanthropologies]

I think none of these options are good honestly. They should be able to place both Greek islands and Greek mainland under a general "Greek" label on the tests, then further distinguish between the island and mainland. None of the ethnicity labels on a DNA test ever contain a single component, they contain many components common in the population to maximize it to the population.

They also look for rare genetic variants rather than common genetic variants to define specific ethnic groups. Using rare genetic variants found in Ashkenazi helps distinguish them from Sicilians, so I am sure Greek Islanders have rare genetic variants that separate them from Sicilians, too. Likewise, there are rare genetic variants that separate Greek Balkan populations from other Balkan populations, too. If these companies looked for and found rare variants associated with both Greek Islanders and mainlanders, and incorporated them all into one big "Greek" label, that would be the most accurate.

[Sikeliot]

You just WANT them to come up with Slavic and for south Italians to look more "ancient Greek" than them.

That is not what I said. Most of the "European" ancestry in southern Italians is Greek, but there is also a native Italic element and a significant amount of Near Eastern and North African. Mainland Greeks are as much original pre-Slavic Greek as south Italians and Aegean islanders but plot north because the balance of their admixture is northern.

[Token]

That is not what I said. Most of the "European" ancestry in southern Italians is Greek, but there is also a native Italic element and a significant amount of Near Eastern and North African. Mainland Greeks are as much original pre-Slavic Greek as south Italians and Aegean islanders but plot north because the balance of their admixture is northern.

No evidence for that. Also, mainland Greeks have minimal Slavic ancestry, concentrated in the northeastern and border areas such as Thessaloniki.

[Borgias]

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Map of ancient tribes in Italy