Was ancient Balkans uniformed genetically ?

[Jana]

It includes all areas that Were under Roman jurisdicrion and Settled by classical tribes.
Balkans is not Geographically large region , so uniformitiy could be expected.

But tribes that inhabited it Were more often lumped togheder by foreigners rather than by themself.
Still, I does not exclude possibility that They Were of the same stock.

I am speaking about classical Greeks, Macedonians, Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians and Liburnians.

What do you think ?

[Moje ime]

I think they weren't uniformed. And I bump the thread. :)

[MercifulServant]

Simaler, but not completely uniform.

[Jana]

I think they weren't uniformed. And I bump the thread. :)

Thanks !

Do you think Northern Balkans Had more north European/steppe ancestry already in antiquity compared to Southern part ?
In that case, we have less Slavic ancestry than we think.

I think all Paleo Balkan tribes + Greeks Were similar.
(But I am not certain of that)

[Jana]

Unfortunatly bronze age samples from Croatia are not available on
Gedmatch , yet They seem Southern European like (mostly neolithic + Minor steppe)

[Jana]

Iron Age Montenegrin plots with Finns and Russians though, but that sample was low quality.

[Moje ime]

Thanks !

Do you think Northern Balkans Had more north European/steppe ancestry already in antiquity compared to Southern part ?
In that case, we have less Slavic ancestry than we think.

I think all Paleo Balkan tribes + Greeks Were similar.
(But I am not certain of that)

Probably it always had more northern dna, people were always mix no matter of borders. But I wouldn't call all Balkan uniform because there were various haplogroups even before Slavs officially arrived.

[Coolguy1]

Most likely a similar cline to today’s Balkans but significantly more southern shifted in general.

[Jana]

Probably it always had more northern dna, people were always mix no matter of borders. But I wouldn't call all Balkan uniform because there were various haplogroups even before Slavs officially arrived.

Maybe, but there was no findings that could confirm that yet.
We have very little ancient samples, and those that are here
Don't show much northern DNA except that Montenegrin I mentioned in earlier post.

[J. Ketch]

Thanks !

Do you think Northern Balkans Had more north European/steppe ancestry already in antiquity compared to Southern part ?
In that case, we have less Slavic ancestry than we think.

I think all Paleo Balkan tribes + Greeks Were similar.
(But I am not certain of that)
[1] "distance%=1.386"

Balkans_BA

Barcin_N,63
Yamnaya_Samara,28.2
WHG,8.8

Similar amount to modern North Italians and Spanish.

[Jana]

[1] "distance%=1.386"

Balkans_BA

Barcin_N,63
Yamnaya_Samara,28.2
WHG,8.8

Where is that sample from, and how does it compare to modern southeastern Europeans ?

[Carpatz]

Obviously not. Thracians and Illyrians weren't homogeneous nations. They were a multitude of tribes that Greeks and Romans grouped based upon what they deemed common characteristics.

[J. Ketch]

Where is that sample from, and how does it compare to modern southeastern Europeans ?
Balkan Bronze Age sample from Global25. Plots near modern North Italians and Spanish. The Balkans IA sample is more Southern/Eastern shifted though.

Modern Balkanite by comparison

[1] "distance%=3.9902"

Serbian

Barcin_N,49.4
Yamnaya_Samara,43.4
WHG,6.4
Natufian,0.8

[Jana]

Obviously not. Thracians and Illyrians weren't homogeneous nations. They were a multitude of tribes that Greeks and Romans grouped based upon what they deemed common characteristics.

That is true, but I have in mind mostly their genetic make Up.
There are some Thracian samples I have seem and They Were mostly neolithic, but also low quality.

[Jana]

Balkan Bronze Age sample from Global25. Plots near modern North Italians and Spanish. The Balkans IA sample is more Southern/Eastern shifted though.

Modern Balkanite by comparison

[1] "distance%=3.9902"

Serbian

Barcin_N,49.4
Yamnaya_Samara,43.4
WHG,6.4
Natufian,0.8

Thanks! Very interesting.

[Lauχum]

I made this PCA a while back to compare ancient Southern European samples to modern populations.
https://i.imgur.com/w1HGruR.png

Balkans_BA includes samples from both Bulgaria and Croatia, so it looks like for most of the Bronze Age the Balkans was inhabited by people who were Bergamo-like or in between Bergamasks and Sardinians. I2165, which is slightly to the "north" of Italian_Bergamo, was from a necropolis in Bulgaria. Which indicates the elite had higher steppe ancestry. The Srubnaya-like I2163 is a late bronze ager from the same necropolis with Z93 and was probably a recent migrant (perhaps a Proto-Daco-Thracian speaker? They were satem after all). Even some Hungarian bronze agers are quite southern. So yeah during the Bronze age and probably the Iron Age the Balkans had much lower steppe ancestry than it does today, and does appear more homogeneous.

[Lauχum]

The Balkan_IA sample from Bulgaria is interesting as well. If its an actual Thracian then that indicates the Eastern Balkans got a significant amount of Caucaso-Anatolian ancestry between Bronze and Iron age, though it could also be a migrant from Greece. More samples are needed from the Iron Age to get a clearer picture (which geneticists apparently don't care about).

[Lauχum]

Here is a better one:
https://i.imgur.com/QfFvneK.png

PDF:
79940

[Jana]

Here is a better one:
https://i.imgur.com/QfFvneK.png

PDF:
79940

Great! Thanks for your effort :thumb001:

[Mingle]

Right now, there seems to be a notable difference between Greeks/Albanians and the rest. Greeks/Albanians are similar to their South Slavic neighbors, but they aren't similar enough to overlap with their neighboring Slavic ethnicities. In the past, all neighboring nations probably overlapped with each other. It probably would have been like Italy. There's a difference between North and South Italians, but they are part of a gradual cline with each region's population overlapping with their neighbors. I think it would have been the same in the Balkans prior to the Slavic migration there.

[Jana]

It seems bronze age Balkans was significantly more western shifted compared to modern Albanians and Greeks, despite being similar plotting on north-south cline.

What is reason for such eastern shift in southern Balkans, it is obviously not Slavic otherwise they would pull north.

Additional CHG like input, from who ?

[Carpatz]

I wonder how a Dacian sample would look like. Dacia in particular had constant gene-flow from the steppes even by the time of Roman conquest.

[Coolguy1]

It seems bronze age Balkans was significantly more western shifted compared to modern Albanians and Greeks, despite being similar plotting on north-south cline.

What is reason for such eastern shift in southern Balkans, it is obviously not Slavic otherwise they would pull north.

Additional CHG like input, from who ?

Yamnaya influence introduced a lot of CHG into the Balkans.

[Carpatz]

It seems bronze age Balkans was significantly more western shifted compared to modern Albanians and Greeks, despite being similar plotting on north-south cline.

What is reason for such eastern shift in southern Balkans, it is obviously not Slavic otherwise they would pull north.

Additional CHG like input, from who ?

Possibly from Armenians who immigrated during the Byzantine period.

[Pribislav]

Ancient Balkans was genetically diverse.
Balkans is large and diversitet in every sense is logical.

[Jana]

Ancient Balkans was genetically diverse.
Balkans is large and diversitet in every sense is logical.

Ancient DNA say different story, looks more of less uniformed.
If gigantic Eurasian steppe could be relatively uniformed before mongoloid invasion , I don't see reason why Balkans could not.

[Arborean]

Yamnaya influence introduced a lot of CHG into the Balkans.

Weren't Yamnaya Bronze Age though? or perhaps more Yamnaya migrations gradually increased the eastward pull?

[Coolguy1]

Weren't Yamnaya Bronze Age though? or perhaps more Yamnaya migrations gradually increased the eastward pull?

Greeks and Albanians most likely derive their steppe ancestry directly from the Yamnaya. A stream of them seem to have migrated into the Balkans very early on. Read Davidski on Eurogenes, he connects Mycenaean steppe ancestry to the Bulgarian Yamnaya samples.

[J. Ketch]

Greeks and Albanians most likely derive their steppe ancestry directly from the Yamnaya. A stream of them seem to have migrated into the Balkans very early on. Read Davidski on Eurogenes, he connects Mycenaean steppe ancestry to the Bulgarian Yamnaya samples.
[1] "distance%=1.6683"

Mycenaean

Barcin_N,66.2
Armenia_EBA,22.4
Yamnaya_Samara,8.6
Yoruba,1.2
WHG,0.8
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,0.6
Han,0.2

[1] "distance%=2.4651"

Greek

Barcin_N,52
Yamnaya_Samara,31.6
Armenia_EBA,10.8
WHG,3
Natufian,2.4
Han,0.2

Most of their Steppe ancestry can't have been direct.