Are mainland Greeks genetically closer to Germans/Brits/Irish/Poles, or Levantine Arabs?

[Sikeliot]

We know islanders, like Sicilians, are closer to the Levant.

But given that I have seen multiple half Irish/British/German, half Sicilian GEDmatch results that are close plotting to Epirotes and Thessalians, it makes me wonder... are Greeks from the north and other parts of the mainland genetically closer to Lebanese/Palestinians/Syrians, or to Germans/Brits/Irish and Poles?

Does someone have an actual answer using science or numbers?

[nightrider+]

Germans, Poles certainly. Not sure about Brits.

[Sikeliot]

Germans, Poles certainly. Not sure about Brits.

So for this to be true, it would imply that there is a quite large difference between Aegean islanders (and south Italians) vs mainland Greeks, because the former two are closer genetically to Levantines than even to Spain.

[nightrider+]

So for this to be true, it would imply that there is a quite large difference between Aegean islanders (and south Italians) vs mainland Greeks, because the former two are closer genetically to Levantines than even to Spain.

You make it sound like you can only drift towards one direction. Mainland Greece isn't that close to Spain either. In fact I suspect it might be closer to Poland.

[Sikeliot]

You make it sound like you can only drift towards one direction. Mainland Greece isn't that close to Spain either. In fact I suspect it might be closer to Poland.

They are closer to Spain than to the Levant, though. Peloponnesians actually might be a bit "west" shifted (toward Spain, France, etc) compared to the rest of the mainland.

Someone in another thread said they believed mainland Greeks also may be genetically closer to Germans than to Turks even.

[Livin]

So, you saying Greeks are not genetically closer to South Italians xddddd!!!!

[Sikeliot]

So, you saying Greeks are not genetically closer to South Italians xddddd!!!!

The islanders undoubtedly are. But I am thinking of the mainland here, especially north.

I have seen half Anglo American, half Sicilian GEDmatch results (see here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?266026-GUESS-THIS-PERSON-S-EUROPEAN-MIX-from-MDLP-K23) who are closer to Thessaly, NW Greece, Thessaloniki and Peloponnese than a full Sicilian would be, especially people from the central-west regions like Palermo and Agrigento who have more MENA inputs.

So the question becomes, are mainland Greeks closer to Lebanese/Syrians/Palestinians, or Germans genetically?

[nightrider+]

Someone in another thread said they believed mainland Greeks also may be genetically closer to Germans than to Turks even.

And how is that surprising? Cypriots are closer than Turks are. At least if you exclude some outliers (with Balkan origins etc).

[Sikeliot]

And how is that surprising? Cypriots are closer than Turks are. At least if you exclude some outliers (with Balkan origins etc).

Because there is nothing historical that would suggest Germanic input into Greece. Also, Turkey is right next door.

I do know Turkey/Greece do not plot together, and frankly IMO do not even look alike but I didn't realize even Germans are closer.

[nightrider+]

Because there is nothing historical that would suggest Germanic input into Greece. Also, Turkey is right next door.

I do know Turkey/Greece do not plot together, and frankly IMO do not even look alike but I didn't realize even Germans are closer.

What does Germanic input have to do with anything? It's not a requirement. There is Steppe, there is Hunter Gatherer proximity, some extra HG ancestry from Slavs in Greece, so there is common ancestry.

[Livin]

The islanders undoubtedly are. But I am thinking of the mainland here, especially north.

I have seen half Anglo American, half Sicilian GEDmatch results (see here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?266026-GUESS-THIS-PERSON-S-EUROPEAN-MIX-from-MDLP-K23) who are closer to Thessaly, NW Greece, Thessaloniki and Peloponnese than a full Sicilian would be, especially people from the central-west regions like Palermo and Agrigento who have more MENA inputs.

So the question becomes, are mainland Greeks closer to Lebanese/Syrians/Palestinians, or Germans genetically?

If the Slavic element makes them closer then yes.

Since islanders are not affected from medieval raids, it sounds normal to me. The regions that you mention are Slavic influenced yes.

[Papastratosels26]

Germany, Poland imo

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Leto]

From the K13 spreadsheet. I left out the insignificant values below 1%

Central_Greek

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.25
2 West_Med 21.47
3 North_Atlantic 16.86
4 West_Asian 15.44
5 Baltic 10.36
6 Red_Sea 5.03


Greek_Thessaly

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.40
2 West_Med 20.63
3 North_Atlantic 19.12
4 Baltic 16.32
5 West_Asian 11.87
6 Red_Sea 3.83
7 South_Asian 1.35

[Marmara]

Some outlying Greeks like Macedonians are closer to Poles IMO.

Also it's surprising how you still couldn't figure it out after years, you made me a Greek expert with your posts.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is a start but possibly get someone to run nMonte using Global 25 so you can see how Greeks fare with all the populations mentioned.

The following table is from this study.

SOURCE : Tian et al. (2009). European Population Genetic Substructure: Further Definition of Ancestry Informative Markers for Distinguishing Among Diverse European Ethnic Groups. Mol Med; doi: 10.2119

It doesn't have all the populations but it has some Middle Easterners (Druze, Bedouin, Palestinians) and also Ashkenazi Jewish, Greeks, Germans and Irish.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3343/5815310162_b536dd4de5_b.jpg

Greeks are the closest to Italians. From this Greeks are closer to Spanish and then Germans than they are to AJs, Druze, Bedouins and Palestinians but they are closer to AJs, Druze, Bedouins and Palestinians than they are to Irish.

So interestingly they are closest to Italians, Spanish and most distant to the Irish with the other populations in between with this particular study.

It gives a bit of an idea but it would be great if someone could run nMonte so that you could get more info on a wider amount of populations.

[Token]

Closer to Poland. Regardless, Slavic input in mainlanders will be proven to be minimal after Classical era samples come in.

[FinalFlash]

Neither. To other Greeks first and foremost.

[kleenex]

On one gedmatch call I’m modeled as 70% South Italian/30% Polish or something like that. Greeks compared to middle eastern a are in another genetic realm can’t even be compared.

[Rgvgjhvv]

On one gedmatch call I’m modeled as 70% South Italian/30% Polish or something like that. Greeks compared to middle eastern a are in another genetic realm can’t even be compared.

Really? Huh, very different to my results

[DarknessWin]

Mainland and Island Greeks are almost the same.
They are equal away from Levant and Germany

[DarknessWin]

If the Slavic element makes them closer then yes.

Since islanders are not affected from medieval raids, it sounds normal to me. The regions that you mention are Slavic influenced yes.

North Greece have equal slavic input with Crete and Rhodes

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/3a/09/d73a0958d37ce378a9ea71a7832f4aa9.png

[Snapdragon]

--

[Kelmendasi]

North Greece have equal slavic input with Crete and Rhodes

[IG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/3a/09/d73a0958d37ce378a9ea71a7832f4aa9.png[/IMG]
More accurate pic. M458 isn't the only haplo linked to Slavs

https://i.redd.it/gwgzxcr1pfv01.png

[DarknessWin]

More accurate pic. M458 isn't the only haplo linked to Slavs

https://i.redd.it/gwgzxcr1pfv01.png

Only M458 is slavic, the I2 came with slavs but its native balkan (assimilated)

[Kelmendasi]

Only M458 is slavic, the I2 came with slavs but its native balkan (assimilated)
Nope. I2 is a broad haplogroup just like R1, best not to refer to them but their subclades instead. The I2a1b clade common in the Balkans today is of Slavic input, this has been gone over multiple times. As for R1a, Z280 is also a clade linked to Slavs(and Balts), not only M458

[michal3141]

We know islanders, like Sicilians, are closer to the Levant.

But given that I have seen multiple half Irish/British/German, half Sicilian GEDmatch results that are close plotting to Epirotes and Thessalians, it makes me wonder... are Greeks from the north and other parts of the mainland genetically closer to Lebanese/Palestinians/Syrians, or to Germans/Brits/Irish and Poles?

Does someone have an actual answer using science or numbers?

An answer based on G25 distances.

Distances for Greek

Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Druze English
8.691073 10.046332 10.083357 10.088032
Lebanese_Christian Irish Polish Palestinian
10.455349 10.687484 11.189290 12.626806

So I guess it's pretty close. Greeks are probably slightly closer to Syrians and Lebanese than English, Irish and Polish but it's very close.

[Sikeliot]

An answer based on G25 distances.

Distances for Greek

Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Druze English
8.691073 10.046332 10.083357 10.088032
Lebanese_Christian Irish Polish Palestinian
10.455349 10.687484 11.189290 12.626806

So I guess it's pretty close. Greeks are probably slightly closer to Syrians and Lebanese than English, Irish and Polish but it's very close.


For comparison's sake can you try it with "East Sicily" and "South Italy"? Compared to Lebanese, Polish, German, etc.

[michal3141]

For comparison's sake can you try it with "East Sicily" and "South Italy"? Compared to Lebanese, Polish, German, etc.

Sicilian_East:

Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Druze Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Christian
5.448962 7.101903 7.204044 7.312329
Palestinian English Irish Polish
9.568999 12.739331 13.304813 14.765372

Italian_South:

Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Druze Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Christian
5.600108 7.141758 7.254786 7.473829
Palestinian English Irish Polish
9.910867 12.328877 12.842890 14.299638

That's interesting that both Sicilian_East and Italian_South are really much closer to Syrians and Lebanese than English, Irish or Poles. I didn't expect there is such a huge difference between them and Greeks genetically.

[Arch Hades]

It's gotta be Germans and Poles...by quite a bit too. Palestinian Arabs are about half Natufian admixed, and have a 7-10% SSA component.

[catgeorge]

More accurate pic. M458 isn't the only haplo linked to Slavs

https://i.redd.it/gwgzxcr1pfv01.png

lol North spain having Slavic input pull your head out of your ass....

[Kelmendasi]

lol North spain having Slavic input pull your head out of your ass....
Can you post evidence to show that there isn't? There are R1a-Z280 samples found in Spain, https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP237/, as well as other R1a clades

[Levant15]

Modern Greeks are in the middle between the Levant and Western Europe. But ancient Greeks were closer to the Levant.

Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk

[catgeorge]

Can you post evidence to show that there isn't? There are R1a-Z280 samples found in Spain, https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP237/, as well as other R1a clades

Down to interpretation and the readers low IQ.

Its in your own link - probably came from Britain. So its not Slavic

Slavic is ethnolinguistic like saying Latin

Only low IQ microcephelus will disagree.

[Kelmendasi]

Down to interpretation and the readers low IQ.

Its in your own link - probably came from Britain. So its not Slavic

Slavic is ethnolinguistic like saying Latin

Only low IQ microcephelus will disagree.
"Came from Britain" really lol? R1a-Z280 is a haplogroup that clearly took part in the ethnogenesis of Slavs(and Balts).

[Sikeliot]

Sicilian_East:

Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Druze Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Christian
5.448962 7.101903 7.204044 7.312329
Palestinian English Irish Polish
9.568999 12.739331 13.304813 14.765372

Italian_South:

Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Druze Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Christian
5.600108 7.141758 7.254786 7.473829
Palestinian English Irish Polish
9.910867 12.328877 12.842890 14.299638

That's interesting that both Sicilian_East and Italian_South are really much closer to Syrians and Lebanese than English, Irish or Poles. I didn't expect there is such a huge difference between them and Greeks genetically.

Try Sicilian West? It is an outlier sample from a region not representative of western Sicily, but I wonder if they are still closer to all the Levantines.

Sicilians/Calabrians are mostly Greek-like ancestry mixed with a significant amount of post-Neolithic Levant/North African/Caucasian.

[catgeorge]

"Came from Britain" really lol? R1a-Z280 is a haplogroup that clearly took part in the ethnogenesis of Slavs(and Balts).

You are full low IQ moron. Its that simple it came from an ethnogensis from your own ass. Z280 was in Britain 4600 years ago. Its in your own link. There is no such thing as Slavic Y dna as there is no such thing as Albanian Y dna an no such thing as Italian Y dna.. haplonationalist Low IQer

[DarknessWin]

Modern Greeks are in the middle between the Levant and Western Europe. But ancient Greeks were closer to the Levant.

Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk

No it was the same with modern

[kleenex]

Modern Greeks are in the middle between the Levant and Western Europe. But ancient Greeks were closer to the Levant.

Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk
No evidence of that from Mycenaean samples. Bronze Age mainland Greeks had high West Med even higher than moderns. You can’t even compare those ancient populations to modern populations unless you examine admixture components.

[Kelmendasi]

You are full low IQ moron. Its that simple it came from an ethnogensis from your own ass. Z280 was in Britain 4600 years ago. Its in your own link. There is no such thing as Slavic Y dna as there is no such thing as Albanian Y dna an no such thing as Italian Y dna.. haplonationalist Low IQer
There isn't a Z280 sample from Britain on that link, especially not from 4600 years ago considering they are modern samples. As well as R1a-Z280 never being found in ancient samples in Britain. Post a screenshot of what you are on about. Whatever makes you sleep at night..

[catgeorge]

There isn't a Z280 sample from Britain on that link, especially not from 4600 years ago considering they are modern samples. As well as R1a-Z280 never being found in ancient samples in Britain. Post a screenshot of what you are on about. Whatever makes you sleep at night..

You're a haplonationalist fucktard with low IQ end of story.

[Kelmendasi]

You're a haplonationalist fucktard with low IQ end of story.
Yh ok..

[Levant15]

No evidence of that from Mycenaean samples. Bronze Age mainland Greeks had high West Med even higher than moderns. You can’t even compare those ancient populations to modern populations unless you examine admixture components.Yes you can compare between ancient and modern at least using fst distances. I could calculate fst distance but I'm traveling. I think Myceneans were closer to the Levant than modern day Greeks

Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk

[rein]

Yes you can compare between ancient and modern at least using fst distances. I could calculate fst distance but I'm traveling. I think Myceneans were closer to the Levant than modern day Greeks

Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk

Who did they mix with later?

[rein]

Slavs,albanians,franks,latins,anatolians..

So you’re the descendant of original Hellenes.

[kleenex]

An answer based on G25 distances.

Distances for Greek

Syrian_Jew Lebanese_Muslim Lebanese_Druze English
8.691073 10.046332 10.083357 10.088032
Lebanese_Christian Irish Polish Palestinian
10.455349 10.687484 11.189290 12.626806

So I guess it's pretty close. Greeks are probably slightly closer to Syrians and Lebanese than English, Irish and Polish but it's very close.

Where is this Greek sample from and how did you get these results? i'm not familiar with G25. Like to see where I would fit in.

[kleenex]

Where is this Greek sample from and how did you get these results? i'm not familiar with G25. Like to see where I would fit in.

Poles and Irish are in separate spheres.

[Sikeliot]

Where is this Greek sample from and how did you get these results? i'm not familiar with G25. Like to see where I would fit in.

Aren't you close to Tuscans? I saw another Peloponnesian person recently who got Tuscan as their top match. I feel like you'd be a bit west-shifted of the average Greek which might bring England and Ireland higher up on your list.

[kleenex]

Aren't you close to Tuscans? I saw another Peloponnesian person recently who got Tuscan as their top match. I feel like you'd be a bit west-shifted of the average Greek which might bring England and Ireland higher up on your list.

Yes I have Tuscan in top 5 on a couple of calculators.

[Sikeliot]

Yes I have Tuscan in top 5 on a couple of calculators.

I wonder if that shift in Peloponnesian people is due to the higher West Med component retained from the Mycenaeans.

[kleenex]

I wonder if that shift in Peloponnesian people is due to the higher West Med component retained from the Mycenaeans.

That's an interesting speculation. Mycenaeans have really high West Med (Sardinian like).

[Sikeliot]

That's an interesting speculation. Mycenaeans have really high West Med (Sardinian like).

We already saw that Sicilian Bell Beaker was close to Mycenaeans so I think SE Europe was simply more like that once.

[kleenex]

We already saw that Sicilian Bell Beaker was close to Mycenaeans so I think SE Europe was simply more like that once.

When we get Bronze age and more recent genetic results back we'll probably find that ancient Europe was nothing like modern Europe.

[Levant15]

No evidence of that from Mycenaean samples. Bronze Age mainland Greeks had high West Med even higher than moderns. You can’t even compare those ancient populations to modern populations unless you examine admixture components.

Using Global 25, I set my dad as a reference for Levant ( which he's still not even close to the most western shifted Levantine)
Greeks are closer to Serbs and Mycenaean are closer to my dad.

Mycenaean
"1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Levant Spanish_Cantabria Serbian German Polish
9.069092 10.870108 11.516140 15.024113 18.010122


Greek
"1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Serbian Spanish_Cantabria German Polish Levant
4.662759 7.279024 8.784095 11.189290 11.267921

Greek_N
"1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Levant Spanish_Cantabria Serbian German Polish
14.69127 15.04759 17.16479 20.25144 23.15761

Greek_Central_Anatolia
"1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Levant Serbian Spanish_Cantabria German Polish
5.662918 12.107922 13.690763 15.802835 18.207319


My dad (for reference)

"1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Lebanese_Christian Druze Lebanese_Druze Levant_BA_North Lebanese_Muslim Cypriot Samaritan Iraqi_Jew
2.266353 2.698155 2.791708 3.527482 3.562206 3.623571 3.914461 4.006183


If I have time later, I'll try to plug them into Past3 and get some distances.

[Imperator Biff]

Mycenaean genomes were more EEF shifted than modern Greeks whom received increased steppe dna most likely from slavic migrants somewhere along the line.

[Vojnik]

Hmmm genetically in between based on this map:


http://i64.tinypic.com/2n6ak45.png

[nightrider+]

Hmmm genetically in between based on this map:


http://i64.tinypic.com/2n6ak45.pngOutdated.

[Kaspias]

On one gedmatch call I’m modeled as 70% South Italian/30% Polish or something like that. Greeks compared to middle eastern a are in another genetic realm can’t even be compared.

Can you share your results? Seems interesting.

[kleenex]

Can you share your results? Seems interesting.


Actually it was 75/25
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.3% South_Italian + 30.7% Hungarian @ 1.97
2 60.1% South_Italian + 39.9% Serbian @ 2
3 64% Italian_Abruzzo + 36% Bulgarian @ 2.04
4 52.8% South_Italian + 47.2% Romanian @ 2.1
5 75.4% South_Italian + 24.6% South_Polish @ 2.21

[kleenex]

Hmmm genetically in between based on this map:


http://i64.tinypic.com/2n6ak45.png

Greeks are so hard to pinpoint genetically because there is variation between mainland and Islands (genetically). It's really more practical to consider regional distances from other groups but I would say there is a continuum with the East Aegean Islands maybe have a slighter pull towards the Levant and the mainland having a pull towards either the NE or West (depending on region and even person).

[Sikeliot]

Greeks are so hard to pinpoint genetically because there is variation between mainland and Islands (genetically). It's really more practical to consider regional distances from other groups but I would say there is a continuum with the East Aegean Islands maybe have a slighter pull towards the Levant and the mainland having a pull towards either the NE or West (depending on region and even person).

It is worth noting some islands have absorbed some mainland ancestry, hence a "Slavic" input is present just at low levels (meaning 90% Sicilian, 10% Polish might work for some islanders even if not all).

[Sikeliot]

Greeks are so hard to pinpoint genetically because there is variation between mainland and Islands (genetically). It's really more practical to consider regional distances from other groups but I would say there is a continuum with the East Aegean Islands maybe have a slighter pull towards the Levant and the mainland having a pull towards either the NE or West (depending on region and even person).

It is worth noting some islands have absorbed some mainland ancestry, hence a "Slavic" input is present just at low levels (meaning 90% Sicilian, 10% Polish might work for some islanders even if not all).

[Joso]

to other Euros probably