North Norwegian Hunter-Gatherer on GEDmatch

[Peterski]

Hunter-gatherer stg001 from Steigen, Norway, years 4000-3800 BC:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#14/67.8092/14.7035

I have uploaded him to GEDmatch Genesis: kit number KG5281659

mtDNA: U5a1d
Y-DNA: I2a1b

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 34.27
2 Baltic 31.01
3 Eastern_Euro 30.34
4 Amerindian 4.31
5 Atlantic 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian 18.2
2 Erzya 19.21
3 Kargopol_Russian 20.09
4 East_Finnish 20.36
5 Lithuanian 20.88
6 Ukrainian 21.13
7 Southwest_Russian 21.24
8 Finnish 21.29
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 21.86
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 22.03
11 Belorussian 22.13
12 Estonian_Polish 22.34
13 Polish 22.47
14 South_Polish 23.06
15 Russian_Smolensk 23.69
16 Southwest_Finnish 24.35
17 North_Swedish 26.55
18 Hungarian 27.61
19 Moldavian 27.64
20 La_Brana-1 27.71

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.3% Estonian + 38.7% Erzya @ 17.5
2 91.5% Estonian + 8.5% MA-1 @ 17.7
3 87.1% Estonian + 12.9% Chuvash @ 17.79
4 91.1% Estonian + 8.9% Mari @ 17.91
5 97.8% Estonian + 2.2% Karitiana @ 17.99
6 97.7% Estonian + 2.3% Anzick-1 @ 18
7 97.7% Estonian + 2.3% Pima @ 18.01
8 97.7% Estonian + 2.3% Mayan @ 18.03
9 98.1% Estonian + 1.9% North_Amerindian @ 18.11
10 85% Estonian + 15% Kargopol_Russian @ 18.14
11 99.3% Estonian + 0.7% West_Greenlander @ 18.19
12 96.6% Estonian + 3.4% East_Finnish @ 18.2
13 99.5% Estonian + 0.5% Tabassaran @ 18.2
14 100% Estonian + 0% Abhkasian @ 18.2
15 100% Estonian + 0% Adygei @ 18.2
16 100% Estonian + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 18.2
17 100% Estonian + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 18.2
18 100% Estonian + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 18.2
19 100% Estonian + 0% Afghan_Turkmen @ 18.2
20 100% Estonian + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 18.2

Eurogenes K36:

114025 SNPs used in this evaluation

Population
Amerindian 2.32 Pct
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 21.36 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 23.67 Pct
Fennoscandian 33.75 Pct
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 7.09 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 8.94 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.88 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/aGSDer2.png

Edit:

Location of Steigen within Nordland County:

https://i.imgur.com/rSInTVZ.png

=====

Edit:

BTW when modeled in ADMIXTURE modern Norwegians show a significant amount of Polish-like DNA, maybe a Steigen connection?:

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/ahP4wj7.png

Steigen in ph2ter's PCA that he posted in my thread about this on another forum, he is even closer to Vepsians than to Estonians:

https://i.imgur.com/qYUFZUS.png

=====

Some archaeological context (posted by Boreas on another forum):

Steigen was U5a1, just as two of the oldest remains found in western Fenno-Scandia; Hummervikholmen 1 and 2 - a man and a woman from the southernmost shores of Norway, some 9.500 BP.

Moreover, the man carried y-dna I2 (M438), while Steigen 3.500 yrs later carried I2 (M423).

Both these populations represent descendants of the pioneers that populated the Norwegian coast after ice-time, between 11.900 and 11.200 BP - from Hummerholmen to North Cape.

One may suspect that I2-M438 is ancestral to I2-M423.

It's well documented that these pioneers were seaborn fishers, trappers and hunters - mastering deep-sea-fishing as well as seal- and whale-hunting; from the North Sea to the Arctic Ocean.

Their origin is pretty well known to have been Bromme-Lyngby, from which this "Fosna-Hensbacka-culture" spread north, at the very beginning of the Holocene already.

Meanwhile the Bromme-Lyngby starts sperading south as the "Ahrensburg/Federmesser-culture" - branching south along the Atlantic Facade - as well as east into the Baltic, repopulating the mounth of Oder and Vistula - from where the "Swidrien-culture" went east, to become the Kunda/Volga/Suoumisalmi-cultures. This eastern branch became dominant east of the Botnic Oceaan - effectively repopulating Finland and the northern tiers of Fenno-Scandia - today recognized as the 10.800 year old "Komsa-culture".

During the late mesolithic is seems a borderland between the "Fosna-Hensbacka" and the "Komsa" develops along the weathershed north of Lofoten and the watershed of the North-Scandinavian Mountainridge. By 8.000 BP the major rivers crossing the northern arctic was somewhat populated - as routes of travel and trade went from the Botnic Bay - west to the North Atlantic and east to the White Sea, Carelia and the Volga-trade. The east-west-connections were very early. The first migrants to follow the Volga towards the Caspian Sea and Ural are documented around 11.000 yrs BP.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703

Today we know that the oldest pottery found in Europe came through these connections - no less than 9.000 yrs ago. The first East-Asian ('Sino-Tibetan') brides to arrive Oleni Ostrov in Carelia appeared no less than 7.500 yrs BP. Well married, cherished and memorized - by a specific grave aka memorial - she could hardly have crossed the Urals by chance and luck.

One may note that Gunther et al misses out of the scenario of a common, paleolithic origin for the SHG, the EHG and the WHG - from - a refugia known to have survived at the shores of the Western Baltics - from where it spread both west and east. When these two branches meets - north of the Arctic Circle around 11.000 years ago - they had already developed characteristic differences in terms of tool-material and knapping-techniques, later visible in house-constructions, pottery-production, art/deco and trade-connections/import-materials. The eastern Komsa were obviously connected with contemporary Finland/Careila/Estonia - whose cultural origin were very close to the Swidrien - from where the early Komsa got their flint. Unlike the early Fosna-Hensbacka, who enjoyed shipments from the Scanian and Danian flint-mines.

The first HG succeeding to re-populate the Atlantic Facade from Biscany to North Cape, as well as the rivers mounting the North Sea and the Baltic Sea - all seem to share y-dna I2.
The later spread of EEF - between the rivers - seem to congruate pretty well with the Holocene Optimum and a massive growth of R1a and R1b throughout Eurasia, together with horse-breeding and cattle-farming, diaries and lactose persistance.

Some think the bifurication of y-dna R1 - into R1a and R1b - seem to have happened around the southern shores of the Baltics. That would correspond quite neatly with the native habitat of the paleolithic Aurochs, namely the heaths surrounding the wetlands of NW Europe - from Vallonia to Pommerania. Surrounding the SW Baltoics, where the highest diversity of domesticated horse- and cattle-races are found - along with the highest percentage of lactose persistance among any native population in the world.

http://theconversation.com/ancient-dna-sheds-light-on-the-mysterious-origins-of-the-first-scandinavians-89703

=====

Edit:

Official PCA from the study in which stg001 was published, also confirms its "Estonian-nness":

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703.s011&type=supplementary

https://i.imgur.com/aOA4wVf.png

^^^
This PCA shows that Norwegian hunter-gatherers were different than Swedish hunter-gatherers.

[Peterski]

Next time before you say "Estonia is not a Nordic country", remember: Estonians were the original Scandinavians. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxjPJrUUu74

So the Pre-Indo-European substrate in Scandinavia were basically Estonians. But his Y-DNA haplogroup was I2a1b.

I2a1b, which is common among Slavs, was probably also assimilated by them from Estonian-like hunter-gatherers.

[Leto]

Lol, the highest North European percentage I've ever seen

Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Kit KG5281659

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 87.54
2 Atlantic_Med 7.75
3 Siberian 4.38
4 Sub_Saharan 0.33

HarappaWorld Oracle results:

Kit KG5281659

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 87.66
2 American 3.82
3 Mediterranean 3.3
4 Beringian 2.26
5 Siberian 1.47
6 Baloch 1.02
7 W-African 0.48

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:

Kit KG5281659

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 89.69
2 Americas 4.06
3 Siberia 2.32
4 South_Asia 2.13
5 SW_Europe 1.81

Now it's becoming clear where the "Amerindian" in Northern Europeans comes from.

[Peterski]

Basically he was part of the population which, much later, the Sagas called Kvens:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221838-Kvens-Pre-Germanic-Scandinavians

Is Steigen hunter-gatherer present in Global25 spreadsheet ???

Dodecad V3:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 58.23
2 East_European 37.33
3 Northeast_Asian 4.01
4 Palaeo_African 0.24
5 Neo_African 0.09
6 Mediterranean 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Finnish (Dodecad) 8.3
2 FIN (1000Genomes) 10.44
3 Swedish (Dodecad) 26.92
4 Russian (HGDP) 27
5 Polish (Dodecad) 27.48
6 Russian (Dodecad) 27.6
7 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 27.99
8 German (Dodecad) 28.7
9 Norwegian (Dodecad) 30.46
10 Lithuanians (Behar) 30.93
11 Slovenian (Xing) 31.67
12 Hungarians (Behar) 32.56
13 Lithuanian (Dodecad) 32.69
14 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 32.71
15 N._European (Xing) 32.97
16 Orkney (1000 Genomes) 33.45
17 Orcadian (HGDP) 33.67
18 CEU (HapMap) 34.37
19 Belorussian (Behar) 34.49
20 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 36.38

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.7% Finnish (Dodecad) + 12.3% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 7.2
2 86.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 13.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 7.21
3 66.9% Finnish (Dodecad) + 33.1% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 7.49
4 92.1% Finnish (Dodecad) + 7.9% Irish (Dodecad) @ 7.63
5 93% Finnish (Dodecad) + 7% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 7.81
6 93.4% Finnish (Dodecad) + 6.6% Cornwall (1000 Genomes) @ 7.84
7 93.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 6.7% British (Dodecad) @ 7.84
8 93.9% Finnish (Dodecad) + 6.1% Kent (1000 Genomes) @ 7.93
9 94.6% Finnish (Dodecad) + 5.4% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 8.03
10 94.8% Finnish (Dodecad) + 5.2% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 8.07
11 96.4% Finnish (Dodecad) + 3.6% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 8.22
12 96.7% Finnish (Dodecad) + 3.3% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 8.23
13 96.8% Finnish (Dodecad) + 3.2% Argyll (1000 Genomes) @ 8.23
14 97.6% Finnish (Dodecad) + 2.4% N._European (Xing) @ 8.26
15 98.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 1.7% CEU (HapMap) @ 8.28
16 98.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 1.7% German (Dodecad) @ 8.29
17 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Adygei (HGDP) @ 8.3
18 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Altai (Rasmussen) @ 8.3
19 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 8.3
20 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Armenians_16 (Behar) @ 8.3


Now it's becoming clear where the "Amerindian" in Northern Europeans comes from.

His results in Eurogenes Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions:

Population
Anatolian Farmer -
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 94.03 Pct
Middle Eastern Herder -
East Asian Farmer -
South American Hunter Gatherer 4.75 Pct :lol:
South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 1.22 Pct
East African Pastoralist -
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer -
Mediterranean Farmer -
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
Bantu Farmer -

[Leto]

So that population was basically the first population of Scandinavia? No Neolithic admixture. I guess European Russia and Baltia were inhabited by similar groups.

[Peterski]

So that population was basically the first population of Scandinavia? No Neolithic admixture.

Of course, because Neolithic farmers only colonized Southern Scandinavia, they never reached as farth north as Steigen.

This study has a nice map showing the spread of farming: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsif.2015.0166


I guess European Russia and Baltia were inhabited by similar groups.

Yes I also think so. And probably I2a1b "Dinaric" (or rather: I2a1b "Slavic") also comes from such hunters like stg001:

http://blog.vayda.pl/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120/

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Frequency-of-I2a-Dinaric-map-1024x706.jpg

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-Dinaric-frequencypopulation-per-country.jpg

[Leto]

Great info, very interesting!

[Peterski]

If this guy is in Global25, someone should try to use him in models as a proxy for Pre-Indo-European substrate of Balts and Slavs.

It has been noticed before that "something is missing" in G25 models for Balto-Slavs involving Steppe, Neolithic, etc. admixtures.

Look how much of Balto-Slavic specific drift - represented by East_Central_Euro in K36 and Baltic in K13/K15 - Steigen apparently had.

[Ryuk]

His siberian/amerind admix probably resulted from ANE's ancient ENA component.

[michal3141]

Peterski, It would be very useful to have him in G25. Maybe Davidski can add him?

[Lucas]

Ok in LM Genetics oracle. Single distance - Estonians, but not in breakdown.

Estonians_general 1.112836
RU_Pinega 1.162180
Estonia_East 1.229349
Estonia_SW 1.237882
RU_North_Dvina 1.283916
RU_Solvychegodsk 1.311389
Estonia_SC 1.314162
RU_Kostroma 1.366176
RU_Novgorod 1.429996
RU_Vyatka 1.541745

pen=default

RU_Pinega,50.2
Estonia_East,22.6
Estonians_general,8.6
Latvia_western,8
Latvia_general,3.2
Latvia_north-eastern,2.2
Karelians,1.8
Estonia_SE,1.2
Estonia_SW,1.2
East_&_North_Finns,1

pen=0

RU_Pinega,30.6
Latvia_western,27.6
Karelians,24.6
Latvia_north-eastern,15.4
Wichi_ARG,0.8
Finnish_Swede,0.6
Sachsen-Anhalt,0.4

https://fusiontables.google.com/embedviz?q=select+col39%3E%3E1+from+1r3uSRvdd4MSfG umqCpOBR8CYiRAl_nN1R1YpzYGb&viz=MAP&h=false&lat=58.623421440617285&lng=21.010388172833927&t=1&z=4&l=col39%3E%3E1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML

https://screenshotscdn.firefoxusercontent.com/images/089689ce-2c15-4985-a5d6-80125d2b9f27.png

[Peterski]

Peterski, It would be very useful to have him in G25. Maybe Davidski can add him?

I will ask him.

[michal3141]

I will ask him.

It would be great to use him instead of WHG for nMonte modelling.

Imagine a model with him, Yamnaya_Samara and Barcin_N.

[Lucas]

Ok in LM Genetics oracle. Single distance - Estonians, but not in breakdown.

Estonians_general 1.112836
RU_Pinega 1.162180
Estonia_East 1.229349
Estonia_SW 1.237882
RU_North_Dvina 1.283916
RU_Solvychegodsk 1.311389
Estonia_SC 1.314162
RU_Kostroma 1.366176
RU_Novgorod 1.429996
RU_Vyatka 1.541745

pen=default

RU_Pinega,50.2
Estonia_East,22.6
Estonians_general,8.6
Latvia_western,8
Latvia_general,3.2
Latvia_north-eastern,2.2
Karelians,1.8
Estonia_SE,1.2
Estonia_SW,1.2
East_&_North_Finns,1

pen=0

RU_Pinega,30.6
Latvia_western,27.6
Karelians,24.6
Latvia_north-eastern,15.4
Wichi_ARG,0.8
Finnish_Swede,0.6
Sachsen-Anhalt,0.4

https://fusiontables.google.com/embedviz?q=select+col39%3E%3E1+from+1r3uSRvdd4MSfG umqCpOBR8CYiRAl_nN1R1YpzYGb&viz=MAP&h=false&lat=58.623421440617285&lng=21.010388172833927&t=1&z=4&l=col39%3E%3E1&y=2&tmplt=2&hml=KML

https://screenshotscdn.firefoxusercontent.com/images/089689ce-2c15-4985-a5d6-80125d2b9f27.png


So north-eastern Russians are basically similar to him. Of course Estonians and Latvians too. Maybe Balto-Slavic connection isn't out of place?
We can't say Kostroma and Pinega Russians assimilated Estonian-like people.

[Leto]

According to Eurogenes ANE K7 he is 1/4 ANE

Population
ANE 26.18 Pct
ASE 1.72 Pct
WHG-UHG 71.22 Pct
East_Eurasian 0.88 Pct
West_African -
East_African -
ENF -

[michal3141]

There were some Baltic Hunters Gatherers in Davidski's G25 spreadsheet. I wonder if maybe he is one of them?

[Lucas]

RU_Pinega modelling

RU_North_Dvina 0.5292599
Vepsians 1.0029287
steigen 1.1621803
RU_Solvychegodsk 1.2832794
Estonians 1.3015806
Estonia_SC 1.3026450
RU_Kostroma 1.4165903
RU_Vyatka 1.5249741
Estonia_SW 1.5810152
RU_Perm 1.6054407

pen dfault

RU_North_Dvina,40.4
Vepsians,21
steigen,18.6
RU_Vyatka,4.4
Saami_Kola,4.4
RU_Solvychegodsk,2
Komi,1.8
Karelians,1.6
Saami_Norway,1
Latvia_general,0.6
RU_Perm,0.6
Latvia_western,0.4
Mansi,0.4
Mordva_Moksha,0.4
RU_Kostroma,0.4
RU_Pskov,0.4
Udmurts,0.4
Evenk-Krasnoyarsk,0.2
Lithuania,0.2
RU_Metschora_&_Murom,0.2
RU_Novgorod,0.2
RU_Samara,0.2
RU_Smolensk,0.2


pen=0

Vepsians,50.2
RU_Vyatka,24.4
steigen,18.2
Mansi,4.4
Saami_Kola,2
Latvia_north-eastern,0.6
Latvia_general,0.2

Interesting, the same value.

[Leto]

@Lukasz, model modern Norwegians and Swedes using Steigen :)

[Peterski]

There were some Baltic Hunters Gatherers in Davidski's G25 spreadsheet. I wonder if maybe he is one of them?

Well, calling him "Baltic Sea" would be wrong, this guy was a Norwegian Sea Hunter-Gatherer: :lol:

https://i.imgur.com/rSInTVZ.png

[Lucas]

@Lukasz, model modern Norwegians and Swedes using Steigen :)

SV_Norrland nothing, Finnish_Swede nothing, Saami nothing. This ancestry was replaced in Scandinavia and persisted only in north Russia and Estonia.

Norway_north only pen=0

Norway_central,28.2
Saami_Finland,25.4
NL_Drenthe,16.4
Iceland,15.8
SV_Norrland,4.4
steigen,3.8
FR_Basque,3.6
Estonia_NW,1.2
South-West_Finns,1
Norway_Hedmark,0.2

[Leto]

SV_Norrland nothing, Finnish_Swede nothing, Saami nothing. This ancestry was replaced in Scandinavia and persisted only in north Russia and Estonia.

Norway_north only pen=0

Norway_central,28.2
Saami_Finland,25.4
NL_Drenthe,16.4
Iceland,15.8
SV_Norrland,4.4
steigen,3.8
FR_Basque,3.6
Estonia_NW,1.2
South-West_Finns,1
Norway_Hedmark,0.2
Really? I thought Scandos should have a shitload of that kind of ancestry. They're nowhere near pure Yamnaya descendants after all.

[Leto]

Lithuania, ~4400-4200 BC. A pure East European HG.

Kit Number: T693843

Population
North_Atlantic 41.82 Pct
Baltic 58.18 Pct
West_Med -
West_Asian -
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

83365 SNPs used in this evaluation


Population
North_Sea 34.98 Pct
Atlantic 17.23 Pct
Baltic 34.29 Pct
Eastern_Euro 13.50 Pct
West_Med -
West_Asian -
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

84285 SNPs used in this evaluation


Population
ANE 11.16 Pct
ASE -
WHG-UHG 87.96 Pct
East_Eurasian 0.72 Pct
West_African -
East_African 0.17 Pct
ENF -

[The Lawspeaker]

As I've been saying for a long, long time: Estonia is Scandinavian.

[michal3141]

Lithuania, ~4400-4200 BC. A pure East European HG.

Kit Number: T693843

Population
North_Atlantic 41.82 Pct
Baltic 58.18 Pct
West_Med -
West_Asian -
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

83365 SNPs used in this evaluation


Population
ANE 11.16 Pct
ASE -
WHG-UHG 87.96 Pct
East_Eurasian 0.72 Pct
West_African -
East_African 0.17 Pct
ENF -

What is his North European score?

EDIT:

Atlantic_Med 24.78 Pct
North_European 74.67 Pct

[Leto]

As I've been saying for a long, long time: Estonia is Scandinavian.
They are Northeastern Europeans genetically but somewhat pulled towards Sweden and South Finland.

Estonian
30.12 Baltic
26.23 North_Sea
20.68 Eastern_Euro
16.33 Atlantic
1.83 West_Med
0.56 West_Asian
0.01 East_Med

Lithuanian
36.36 Baltic
21.18 Eastern_Euro
20.15 North_Sea
15.72 Atlantic
2.50 West_Med
1.63 West_Asian
0.61 East_Med

Estonian_Polish
31.21 Baltic
22.50 Eastern_Euro
18.34 North_Sea
17.71 Atlantic
4.43 West_Med
2.06 West_Asian
0.85 East_Med

Belorussian
32.02 Baltic
21.25 Eastern_Euro
19.33 North_Sea
17.63 Atlantic
3.39 West_Med
2.48 West_Asian
1.80 East_Med

Russian_Smolensk
29.95 Baltic
20.42 Eastern_Euro
18.20 Atlantic
18.01 North_Sea
4.42 West_Med
4.38 West_Asian
2.03 East_Med

Kargopol_Russian
26.79 Eastern_Euro
25.58 Baltic
18.59 North_Sea
13.89 Atlantic
2.93 West_Med
2.39 West_Asian
0.74 East_Med

[Peterski]

As I've been saying for a long, long time: Estonia is Scandinavian.

Or rather: Scandinavia WAS genetically "Estonian" before Proto-Germanic people came there from... where? Presumably from Northern Germany.

There were also genetically Sardinian-like Neolithic farmers in Scandinavia, but only in southern parts. They never reached more northern regions.

Neolithic farmers resembled genetically modern Sardinians in all of Neolithic Europe ("Old Europe" as Gimbutas called it):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277282-Ukrainian-Neolithic-Farmers

[Leto]

There were also genetically Sardinian-like Neolithic farmers in Scandinavia, but only in southern parts. They never reached more northern regions.
Really? I thought the locals simply adopted Neolithic farming techniques without having mixed with ENF-admixed immigrants.

[Peterski]

Really? I thought the locals simply adopted Neolithic farming techniques without having mixed with ENF-admixed immigrants.

No, they were Sardinian-like. Even the ones in Sweden. They had higher hunter-gatherer admixture but still pretty close to Sardinians.

The ones in Poland also had higher hunter-gatherer admixture (that's why some of them were more like Basques than like Sardinians):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276558-Neolithic-GAC-Farmers-on-GEDmatch

Check also Neolithic Western Ukrainians, more "East Med" admixed: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277282-Ukrainian-Neolithic-Farmers

[Leto]

No, they were Sardinian-like. Even the ones in Sweden. They had higher hunter-gatherer admixture but still pretty close to Sardinians.

The ones in Poland also had higher hunter-gatherer admixture (that's why some of them were more like Basques than like Sardinians):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276558-Neolithic-GAC-Farmers-on-GEDmatch

Check also Neolithic Western Ukrainians, more "East Med" admixed: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277282-Ukrainian-Neolithic-Farmers
The Polish farmer is 70% WHG, 30% ENF on K7 (and 0% ANE as expected). Is this calc good enough to begin with?

Population
ANE -
ASE -
WHG-UHG 70.71 Pct
East_Eurasian -
West_African -
East_African -
ENF 29.29 Pct

[Karkurdu]

That's a very weird result. He's got even Amerindian and Arctic components, suggesting that this is not "pure" Hunter Gatherer. Maybe that's the reason why he got closer to Finns and Estonians than modern day Norwegians and Swedes.

This sample also has more Baltic than North Atlantic on Eurogenes K13 which is weird as well.

[Lucas]

Wow

Latvia_western (academic sample). But Lithuania nothing, Polish_Suwalki also nope.

pen=0

Latvia_general,36.2
Lithuania,27
steigen,25.8
Ukraine_Volhyn,5.2
Estonia_NW,2.4
RU_Tver,2
Ireland,1
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,0.2
RU_Vyatka,0.2

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

That's a very weird result. He's got even Amerindian and Arctic components, suggesting that this is not "pure" Hunter Gatherer. Maybe that's the reason why he got closer to Finns and Estonians than modern day Norwegians and Swedes.

This sample also has more Baltic than North Atlantic on Eurogenes K13 which is weird as well.

Baltic more WHG component than North Atlantic.

[Karkurdu]

Someone should tell Davidski to make a proper calc. that separates EHG and WHG. There is no calc. on Gedmatch that does this properly, ancient samples get confusing.

[Dick]

proto-Serb

[Token]

No, they were Sardinian-like. Even the ones in Sweden. They had higher hunter-gatherer admixture but still pretty close to Sardinians.

The ones in Poland also had higher hunter-gatherer admixture (that's why some of them were more like Basques than like Sardinians):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276558-Neolithic-GAC-Farmers-on-GEDmatch

Check also Neolithic Western Ukrainians, more "East Med" admixed: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277282-Ukrainian-Neolithic-Farmers

Peterski and his agenda against Germans. There is nothing Balto-Slavic about this sample. Wait till i get home, i'm gonna rekt your thread.

[Leto]

Someone should tell Davidski to make a proper calc. that separates EHG and WHG. There is no calc. on Gedmatch that does this properly, ancient samples get confusing.
EHG is basically WHG + ANE. The Norwegian HG was seriously admixed with ANEs. I think that admixture was absent in Central Europe and present only in Northeastern Europe. See the Lithuanian sample I posted (11% ANE, because Lithuania is more Southern than Northern Norway).

[Peterski]

There is nothing Balto-Slavic about this sample.

There is. East_Central_Euro component in K36 represents Balto-Slavic specific drift. "Ancestor of R1a" has low % of this component because he predates this drift, or because this component is related to Non-IE part of Balto-Slavic genetic profile (such as hunter-gatherers that were assimilated by Corded Ware):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277289-Ancestor-of-R1a-men-on-GEDmatch

This stg001 is likely similar to those hunter-gatherers who mixed with Corded Ware, leading to Trzciniec Culture (Proto-Balto-Slavs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

[Karkurdu]

EHG is basically WHG + ANE. The Norwegian HG was seriously admixed with ANEs. I think that admixture was absent in Central Europe and present only in Northeastern Europe. See the Lithuanian sample I posted (11% ANE, because Lithuania is more Southern than Northern Norway).

Honestly what EHG is still a matter of debate. Since there is no ADMIXTURE calc. for it either, it is hard to tell what the exact proportions of EHG is. Same goes for ANE component,. The only calc. that estimates ANE is Eurogenes K7 which is a an old calc. I wouldn't take its estimation of ANE that seriously. Davidski never released K8 for public use.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277811-Are-Balts-closer-to-proto-Slavs-than-modern-Slavs

[Leto]

There is. East_Central_Euro component in K36 represents Balto-Slavic specific drift. "Ancestor of R1a" has low % of this component because he predates this drift, or because this component is related to Non-IE part of Balto-Slavic genetic profile (such as hunter-gatherers that were assimilated by Corded Ware):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277289-Ancestor-of-R1a-men-on-GEDmatch

This stg001 is likely similar to those hunter-gatherers who mixed with Corded Ware, leading to Trzciniec Culture (Proto-Balto-Slavs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture
I really hope there will be Fatyanovo-Balanovo samples in the future (Bronze Age European Russia).

[Ayetooey]

Balkan Vlachs moved north earlier than anticipated it seems.

[Ayetooey]

Who else related to this guy?

Largest segment = 1.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 2.8 cM (0.077 Pct)

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Who else related to this guy?

Largest segment = 1.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 2.8 cM (0.077 Pct)

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

I don't share anything with him. Too Aryan for I2 caveman. :D

[Dick]

I don't share anything with him. Too Aryan for I2 caveman. :D

Try with threshold "50" minimum cm segment "3".

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Try with threshold "50" minimum cm segment "3".

Largest segment = 3.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 3.4 cM (0.094 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

[Cumansky]

He is I2 British Isles

You see the endurance of my haplogroup, living as arctic savage, his ancestor became colonial American owners..

You don't know climate in late Neolithic Peterski another BS thread. Do you have life? There is no even subclade..

Lol, Miesanka-esque thread

[Peterski]

Maybe Balto-Slavic connection isn't out of place?

Indeed!

When modeled in ADMIXTURE modern Norwegians show a significant amount of Polish-like DNA, maybe a Steigen connection?:

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/ahP4wj7.png


Peterski, It would be very useful to have him in G25. Maybe Davidski can add him?

Yup, I sent the raw data to Davidski. Hopefully he will add it to G25.

[Aren]

Like this thread is just... :D

[AphroditeWorshiper]

I have a question Peterski, do on Mesolithic, Eastern Europe,Scandinavia and Central Europe was inhabited by these Eastern Hunter gatherers, so the WHGs just had impact on Iberia,Italy,France and Bitish Isles?

[Peterski]

Like this thread is just... :D

This is basically the Northernmost European ancient DNA sample known so far!

I mean geographically northernmost. But also genetically, as Leto wrote here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277794-North-Norwegian-Hunter-Gatherer-on-GEDmatch&p=5796330&viewfull=1#post5796330

[Aren]

This is basically the Northernmost European ancient DNA sample known so far!

I mean geographically northernmost. But also genetically, as Leto wrote here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277794-North-Norwegian-Hunter-Gatherer-on-GEDmatch&p=5796330&viewfull=1#post5796330

I strongly doubt that these samples have the specific Balto-Slavic drift. They are just an EHG-WHG mix similar to the ones from Sweden, named SHG in Davids spreadsheet.
I think we just have to accept that Balto-Slavs rose from a small population probably located somewhere in Belarus and surrounding area during the LBA or the IA and that we wont find samples that will work well to model modern day Balto-Slavic speakers prior to that.

However David did mention that qpAdm ignores recent genetic drifts, if you know how to work qpAdm then try some runs and post them here.

[Peterski]

They are just an EHG-WHG mix similar to the ones from Sweden, named SHG in Davids spreadsheet.

If I remember correctly, SHG samples from Southern Sweden and Gotland have quite different scores on GEDmatch.

What about Hum1 and Hum2, Middle Mesolithic Southern Norway, 7500-7300 BC - are these samples in Global25 ???

[Aren]

If I remember correctly, SHG samples from Southern Sweden and Gotland have quite different scores on GEDmatch.

What about Hum1 and Hum2, Middle Mesolithic Southern Norway, 7500-7300 BC - are these samples in Global25 ???

BTW, I sent David raw data for Steigen, maybe he will add him.

No only the SHG from Östergötland in southern Sweden are there, and the Middle Neolithic samples from Gotland.

[Peterski]

No only the SHG from Östergötland in southern Sweden are there, and the Middle Neolithic samples from Gotland.

And they are also older than Steigen. Steigen is the youngest of all SHG samples we have so far.

Other Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherer samples available are older than 4000 BC (6000 years ago).

Edit:

Well, maybe only these ones from Gotland are younger, they co-existed with farmers as neighbours:

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/344/6185/747



What about Hum1 and Hum2, Middle Mesolithic Southern Norway, 7500-7300 BC - are these samples in Global25 ???

No

Too bad, because they were probably ancestral to Steigen, read below.

Some archaeological context (posted by Boreas on another forum):

Steigen was U5a1, just as two of the oldest remains found in western Fenno-Scandia; Hummervikholmen 1 and 2 - a man and a woman from the southernmost shores of Norway, some 9.500 BP.

Moreover, the man carried y-dna I2 (M438), while Steigen 3.500 yrs later carried I2 (M423).

Both these populations represent descendants of the pioneers that populated the Norwegian coast after ice-time, between 11.900 and 11.200 BP - from Hummerholmen to North Cape.

One may suspect that I2-M438 is ancestral to I2-M423.

It's well documented that these pioneers were seaborn fishers, trappers and hunters - mastering deep-sea-fishing as well as seal- and whale-hunting; from the North Sea to the Arctic Ocean.

Their origin is pretty well known to have been Bromme-Lyngby, from which this "Fosna-Hensbacka-culture" spread north, at the very beginning of the Holocene already.

Meanwhile the Bromme-Lyngby starts sperading south as the "Ahrensburg/Federmesser-culture" - branching south along the Atlantic Facade - as well as east into the Baltic, repopulating the mounth of Oder and Vistula - from where the "Swidrien-culture" went east, to become the Kunda/Volga/Suoumisalmi-cultures. This eastern branch became dominant east of the Botnic Oceaan - effectively repopulating Finland and the northern tiers of Fenno-Scandia - today recognized as the 10.800 year old "Komsa-culture".

During the late mesolithic is seems a borderland between the "Fosna-Hensbacka" and the "Komsa" develops along the weathershed north of Lofoten and the watershed of the North-Scandinavian Mountainridge. By 8.000 BP the major rivers crossing the northern arctic was somewhat populated - as routes of travel and trade went from the Botnic Bay - west to the North Atlantic and east to the White Sea, Carelia and the Volga-trade. The east-west-connections were very early. The first migrants to follow the Volga towards the Caspian Sea and Ural are documented around 11.000 yrs BP.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703

Today we know that the oldest pottery found in Europe came through these connections - no less than 9.000 yrs ago. The first East-Asian ('Sino-Tibetan') brides to arrive Oleni Ostrov in Carelia appeared no less than 7.500 yrs BP. Well married, cherished and memorized - by a specific grave aka memorial - she could hardly have crossed the Urals by chance and luck.

One may note that Gunther et al misses out of the scenario of a common, paleolithic origin for the SHG, the EHG and the WHG - from - a refugia known to have survived at the shores of the Western Baltics - from where it spread both west and east. When these two branches meets - north of the Arctic Circle around 11.000 years ago - they had already developed characteristic differences in terms of tool-material and knapping-techniques, later visible in house-constructions, pottery-production, art/deco and trade-connections/import-materials. The eastern Komsa were obviously connected with contemporary Finland/Careila/Estonia - whose cultural origin were very close to the Swidrien - from where the early Komsa got their flint. Unlike the early Fosna-Hensbacka, who enjoyed shipments from the Scanian and Danian flint-mines.

The first HG succeeding to re-populate the Atlantic Facade from Biscany to North Cape, as well as the rivers mounting the North Sea and the Baltic Sea - all seem to share y-dna I2.
The later spread of EEF - between the rivers - seem to congruate pretty well with the Holocene Optimum and a massive growth of R1a and R1b throughout Eurasia, together with horse-breeding and cattle-farming, diaries and lactose persistance.

Some think the bifurication of y-dna R1 - into R1a and R1b - seem to have happened around the southern shores of the Baltics. That would correspond quite neatly with the native habitat of the paleolithic Aurochs, namely the heaths surrounding the wetlands of NW Europe - from Vallonia to Pommerania. Surrounding the SW Baltoics, where the highest diversity of domesticated horse- and cattle-races are found - along with the highest percentage of lactose persistance among any native population in the world.

http://theconversation.com/ancient-dna-sheds-light-on-the-mysterious-origins-of-the-first-scandinavians-89703

[Cumansky]

One may suspect that I2-M438 is ancestral to I2-M423.

"Haplogroup I-M438,

also known as I2 (and until 2007 as I1b), is a human DNA Y-chromosome haplogroup, a subclade of Haplogroup I-M170. Haplogroup I-M438 originated some time around 26,000–31,000 BCE and has two primary subclades: I-L460, I-L596 and I-L147.

Haplogroup I-M438
Possible time of origin 28–33,000 years ago
Possible place of origin Eastern Europe (Balkans), possibly the Eastern Mediterranean
Ancestor I-M170
Descendants I-L460, I-L1251
Defining mutations M438/P215/S31

Highest frequencies
I2a1a: Sardinia
I2a1b: Bosnia and Herzegovina
I2a2: Britain, Germany, and Sweden

(The haplogroup can be found all over Europe) and reaches its maximum frequency in the Dinaric Alps in Eastern Europe (especially in the Balkans). Examples of basal I-M438* have been found in males from Crete and Sicily."

[Peterski]

Official PCA from the study in which stg001 was published, also confirms its "Estonian-ness":

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703.s011&type=supplementary

https://i.imgur.com/aOA4wVf.png

^^^
This PCA shows that Norwegian hunter-gatherers were different than Swedish hunter-gatherers.

[Peterski]

I have uploaded this Steigen hunter-gatherer also to DNA Land, and here is his Ancestry Report:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?279605-Steigen-Hunter-Gatherer-DNA-Land-Ancestry-Report

https://i.imgur.com/N1o1feY.png

[Imperator Biff]

EHG is basically WHG + ANE. The Norwegian HG was seriously admixed with ANEs. I think that admixture was absent in Central Europe and present only in Northeastern Europe. See the Lithuanian sample I posted (11% ANE, because Lithuania is more Southern than Northern Norway).
They also seem to harbour basal CHG related ancestry which would explain why a Karelian EHG turned up belonging to haplogroup J*.

[Proto-Shaman]

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 77.05
2 Ancestral_Altaic 14.08
3 Amerindian 3.16
4 European_Early_Farmers 2.48
5 Arctic 1.8
6 Khoisan 0.49
7 South_Indian 0.43
8 East_Siberian 0.32
9 Paleo_Siberian 0.16
10 Archaic_Human 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saami ( ) 21.52
2 Saami_Finland ( ) 25.87
3 Bashkir ( ) 29.74
4 Udmurd ( ) 30.21
5 Mari ( ) 31.59
6 Saami_Kola ( ) 31.62
7 Tatar-Siberian ( ) 31.93
8 Finn ( ) 32.65
9 Karelian ( ) 32.77
10 Finn_East ( ) 34.12
11 Komi ( ) 34.21
12 Chuvash ( ) 34.38
13 Uygur-Han ( ) 34.39
14 Finnish-East ( ) 34.41
15 Hakas ( ) 34.93
16 Finnish_FIN ( ) 34.96
17 Kazahs ( ) 35.37
18 Aleut ( ) 35.46
19 Vepsa ( ) 35.58
20 Chuvashs ( ) 35.77

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.4% Saami ( ) + 15.6% Athabask ( ) @ 18.98
2 79.2% Saami ( ) + 20.8% Haida ( ) @ 18.99
3 79.5% Saami ( ) + 20.5% Ojibwa ( ) @ 19
4 78.4% Saami ( ) + 21.6% Ayta_AE ( ) @ 19.17
5 81.9% Saami ( ) + 18.1% Cree ( ) @ 19.29
6 87.2% Saami ( ) + 12.8% Navajo ( ) @ 19.38
7 77.7% Saami ( ) + 22.3% Tsimsian ( ) @ 19.41
8 81.6% Saami ( ) + 18.4% Ati ( ) @ 19.51
9 80.1% Saami ( ) + 19.9% Mamanawa ( ) @ 19.54
10 83.5% Saami ( ) + 16.5% Sandawe ( ) @ 19.55
11 85.9% Saami ( ) + 14.1% Cochimi ( ) @ 19.55
12 82.6% Saami ( ) + 17.4% Manggarai ( ) @ 19.58
13 82.9% Saami ( ) + 17.1% Lamaholt ( ) @ 19.59
14 84.6% Saami ( ) + 15.4% Khwe ( ) @ 19.6
15 83% Saami ( ) + 17% Kensiu ( ) @ 19.61
16 84.1% Saami ( ) + 15.9% Hema ( ) @ 19.62
17 88.6% Saami ( ) + 11.4% Apache ( ) @ 19.62
18 83.3% Saami ( ) + 16.7% Lembata ( ) @ 19.63
19 85.1% Saami ( ) + 14.9% Shua ( ) @ 19.65
20 83.7% Saami ( ) + 16.3% Algonquin ( ) @ 19.65
Looks like autosomal R1 but has I1, How comes? hmmmmm...

[Harkonnen]

Basically he was part of the population which, much later, the Sagas called Kvens:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221838-Kvens-Pre-Germanic-Scandinavians

Is Steigen hunter-gatherer present in Global25 spreadsheet ???

Dodecad V3:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 58.23
2 East_European 37.33
3 Northeast_Asian 4.01
4 Palaeo_African 0.24
5 Neo_African 0.09
6 Mediterranean 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Finnish (Dodecad) 8.3
2 FIN (1000Genomes) 10.44
3 Swedish (Dodecad) 26.92
4 Russian (HGDP) 27
5 Polish (Dodecad) 27.48
6 Russian (Dodecad) 27.6
7 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 27.99
8 German (Dodecad) 28.7
9 Norwegian (Dodecad) 30.46
10 Lithuanians (Behar) 30.93
11 Slovenian (Xing) 31.67
12 Hungarians (Behar) 32.56
13 Lithuanian (Dodecad) 32.69
14 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 32.71
15 N._European (Xing) 32.97
16 Orkney (1000 Genomes) 33.45
17 Orcadian (HGDP) 33.67
18 CEU (HapMap) 34.37
19 Belorussian (Behar) 34.49
20 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 36.38

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.7% Finnish (Dodecad) + 12.3% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 7.2
2 86.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 13.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 7.21
3 66.9% Finnish (Dodecad) + 33.1% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 7.49
4 92.1% Finnish (Dodecad) + 7.9% Irish (Dodecad) @ 7.63
5 93% Finnish (Dodecad) + 7% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 7.81
6 93.4% Finnish (Dodecad) + 6.6% Cornwall (1000 Genomes) @ 7.84
7 93.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 6.7% British (Dodecad) @ 7.84
8 93.9% Finnish (Dodecad) + 6.1% Kent (1000 Genomes) @ 7.93
9 94.6% Finnish (Dodecad) + 5.4% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 8.03
10 94.8% Finnish (Dodecad) + 5.2% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 8.07
11 96.4% Finnish (Dodecad) + 3.6% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 8.22
12 96.7% Finnish (Dodecad) + 3.3% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 8.23
13 96.8% Finnish (Dodecad) + 3.2% Argyll (1000 Genomes) @ 8.23
14 97.6% Finnish (Dodecad) + 2.4% N._European (Xing) @ 8.26
15 98.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 1.7% CEU (HapMap) @ 8.28
16 98.3% Finnish (Dodecad) + 1.7% German (Dodecad) @ 8.29
17 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Adygei (HGDP) @ 8.3
18 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Altai (Rasmussen) @ 8.3
19 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 8.3
20 100% Finnish (Dodecad) + 0% Armenians_16 (Behar) @ 8.3



His results in Eurogenes Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions:

Population
Anatolian Farmer -
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 94.03 Pct
Middle Eastern Herder -
East Asian Farmer -
South American Hunter Gatherer 4.75 Pct :lol:
South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 1.22 Pct
East African Pastoralist -
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer -
Mediterranean Farmer -
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
Bantu Farmer -

Kal006 from Sigtuna gets pretty high Baltic HG in that test also, whatever it exactly is

http://i66.tinypic.com/2meslfn.jpg