Bronze Age Bulgarian R1a-Z93

[Peterski]

I uploaded Bronze Age Bulgarian I2163, whose Y-DNA was R1a (but Indo-Iranian branch Z93, not Slavic):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#11/42.1360/25.5602

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrovgrad,_Bulgaria

https://i.imgur.com/6HCLVgb.png

GEDmatch Genesis kit number - MW2273712

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 35.52
2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
3 Baltic 13.65
4 Atlantic 13.45
5 West_Asian 12.95
6 South_Asian 3.15
7 Amerindian 2.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 13.52
2 Swedish 15.34
3 Finnish 15.54
4 Southwest_Finnish 15.82
5 Norwegian 15.93
6 East_German 17.21
7 North_German 17.24
8 West_Norwegian 17.25
9 Danish 17.71
10 Hungarian 17.94
11 East_Finnish 18.02
12 North_Dutch 18.06
13 West_German 18.34
14 South_Polish 19.7
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.72
16 Ukrainian 19.84
17 Estonian 20.15
18 Orcadian 20.35
19 West_Scottish 20.42
20 South_Dutch 20.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.5% North_Swedish + 24.5% Tabassaran @ 7.58
2 77.6% North_Swedish + 22.4% Lezgin @ 8.3
3 79% North_Swedish + 21% Chechen @ 8.67
4 73.4% Swedish + 26.6% Tabassaran @ 9.11
5 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Adygei @ 9.45
6 82.1% North_Swedish + 17.9% Ossetian @ 9.52
7 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Tabassaran @ 9.53
8 80.9% North_Swedish + 19.1% Kabardin @ 9.57
9 80.3% North_Swedish + 19.7% Afghan_Pashtun @ 9.58
10 82.5% North_Swedish + 17.5% Kalash @ 9.59
11 80.1% North_Swedish + 19.9% Kumyk @ 9.61
12 82.3% North_Swedish + 17.7% North_Ossetian @ 9.62
13 84.8% North_Swedish + 15.2% Abhkasian @ 9.66
14 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Balkar @ 9.72
15 75.6% Swedish + 24.4% Lezgin @ 9.77
16 84.2% North_Swedish + 15.8% Georgian @ 9.81
17 70.5% West_Norwegian + 29.5% Tabassaran @ 9.87
18 83.5% North_Swedish + 16.5% Balochi @ 10.04
19 74.8% Norwegian + 25.2% Lezgin @ 10.11
20 84% North_Swedish + 16% Brahui @ 10.13

Eurogenes K15 PCA:

Abscisse (x-axis): 534 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 144 pixel

https://i.imgur.com/FvAghvC.png

Similarity Maps:

Russia & Asia:

https://i.imgur.com/pKDbtSS.png

And Europe:

https://i.imgur.com/9Ei4KCZ.png

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Wow. Very steppe guy. Obviously elite sample.

[Peterski]

Wow. Very steppe guy. Obviously elite sample.

He looks totally out of place in modern Southern Europe.

Was he a recent immigrant to Bulgaria from the Steppes?

[Ayetooey]

Nice one.

[Peterski]

From Eurogenes Blog:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/steppe-invaders-in-bronze-age-balkans.html

"Bulgaria_MLBA I2163: Y-hg R1a1a1b2 mt-hg U5a2 1750-1625 calBCE

The most Yamnaya-like of all of the Balkan samples in Mathieson et al. 2017, and, as far as I can see based on his overall genome-wide results, probably indistinguishable from the contemporaneous Srubnaya people of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. He also belongs to Y-haplogroup R1a-Z93, which is a marker typical of Srubnaya and other closely related steppe groups such as Andronovo, Potapovka and Sintashta. So there's very little doubt that he's either a migrant or a recent descendant of migrants to the Balkans from the Pontic-Caspian steppe."

[xripkan]

My comparison results for thresold 200-400

Largest segment = 0.3 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 0.3 cM (0.008 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

83984 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.312 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Pribislav]

Real Thracian.

[Peterski]

Real Thracian.

Some people think he was a Proto-Greek before mixing with Minoan "wogs" further south. :)

This sample is dated to: 1750-1625 BC

Myceaneans are dated to:

1411-1262 BC (one sample)
1416-1280 BC (one sample)
1700-1200 BC (two samples)

So he could be ancestral to Mycenaeans.

=====

Edit:

Some more calcs:

His results in puntDNAL K12:

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_HG 45.79
2 Caucasus_HG 27.88
3 Anatolian_NF 19.89
4 Beringian 3.41
5 Amerindian 1.41
6 South_Asian 1.31

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Srubnaya_I0232 @ 3.134314
2 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 @ 3.797682
3 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 @ 3.900799
4 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 @ 4.797025
5 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 @ 5.052248
6 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 @ 5.825454
7 Srubnaya_I0430 @ 7.175141
8 Potapovka_I0419 @ 7.469271
9 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 @ 8.079706
10 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 @ 11.250714
11 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 @ 12.764265
12 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 @ 13.424397
13 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 @ 13.650426
14 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 14.740792
15 Unetice_EBA_I0117 @ 14.801845
16 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 14.956509
17 Yamnaya_Samara_I0443 @ 15.883912
18 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 16.527464
19 Scythian_IA_I0247 @ 16.988422
20 Afanasievo_SG_RISE511 @ 19.113752

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Andronovo_SG_RISE505 +50% Srubnaya_I0232 @ 2.810591

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Andronovo_SG_RISE505 +25% Srubnaya_I0232 +25% Srubnaya_I0232 @ 2.810591

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Srubnaya_I0232 + Srubnaya_I0232 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 2.597268
(...)

His results in MDLP K11:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 40.86
2 EHG 31.94
3 Neolithic 14.98
4 Iran-Mesolithic 7.98
5 Amerindian 2.13

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Srubnaya_LBA @ 4.859118
2 Sintashta_MBA @ 4.960232
3 Andronovo_Eneolithic @ 7.546394
4 Corded_Ware_Germany @ 7.561746
5 Corded_Ware_Germany @ 8.130066
6 Poltavka_MBA_outlier @ 8.672397
7 Corded_Ware_Estonia @ 9.067833
8 Nordic_BattleAxe @ 10.487313
9 Potapovka_BA @ 10.598248
10 Srubnaya_LBA_outlier @ 10.608652
11 Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland @ 11.877763
12 Irish_BA @ 12.260816
13 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN @ 12.415079
14 Nordic_BA @ 12.691585
15 Karsdorf_LN @ 13.087960
16 Nordic_LN @ 13.605470
17 Nordic_IA @ 13.647160
18 Unetice_MBA @ 13.749290
19 Unetice_EBA @ 14.416342
20 Nordic_LBA @ 14.966543

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Nordic_BattleAxe +50% Potapovka_BA @ 1.818545

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Afanasievo_Eneolithic +25% Hungary_BA +25% Sintashta_MBA @ 1.350623

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Hungary_BA + Sintashta_MBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA @ 1.237987
(...)

[Ryuk]

Some people think he was a Proto-Greek before mixing with Minoan "wogs" further south. :)

This sample is dated to: 1750-1625 BC

Myceaneans are dated to:

1411-1262 BC (one sample)
1416-1280 BC (one sample)
1700-1200 BC (two samples)

So he could be ancestral to Mycenaeans.

You got the words from my mouth.This example must belong to proto-greek multi-cordened-ware culture.

Remember,proto greeks had some shared terms and tales with proto indo iranians.

[Mingle]

Real Thracian.

Thracians were from the Iron Age.

[Peterski]

Thracians were from the Iron Age.

When did Proto-Thracians come to what later became Thrace?

[Pribislav]

This is proto-Thracian.

From history is known that proto-Thracians were invaders from Pontic stepe. They mixed with paleo-Balkanite wogs and created southern shifted woman from Bulgaria whose result was posted here few days ago.

[xripkan]

Some people think he was a Proto-Greek before mixing with Minoan "wogs" further south. :)

This sample is dated to: 1750-1625 BC

Myceaneans are dated to:

1411-1262 BC (one sample)
1416-1280 BC (one sample)
1700-1200 BC (two samples)

So he could be ancestral to Mycenaeans.


You got the words from my mouth.This example must belong to proto-greek multi-cordened-ware culture.

Remember,proto greeks had some shared terms and tales with proto indo iranians.

I find very interesting since I am Greek with R-Z93 and I share a very small segment with this sample. But is it more possible that he is a Proto-Greek or Proto-Thracian than a single individual who migrated to the south? Do we have more data that some of Indo-european settlers at the Balkans were R-Z93 or this is the only sample? I just checked the comparison results with the four myceneans and they have no common segment.

[Mingle]

When did Proto-Thracians come to what later became Thrace?

Thracians are dated to the 10th century BC which is the early Iron Age. I guess you could say this may have been a Proto-Thracian (or Proto-Thraco-Daco-Illyro-etc) as they're dated to the Middle Bronze Age (Multi-cordoned ware culture). But Thracians proper were from the Iron Age.

[Pribislav]

Now red haired Thracian woman from Bulgaria make sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians#/media/File:Thrace-ostrusha.jpg

This thread is the worst nightmare for Bosniensis! :)

[xripkan]

Now red haired Thracian woman from Bulgaria make sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians#/media/File:Thrace-ostrusha.jpg

This thtead is the worst nightmare for Bosniensis! :)

If this is the only sample R-Z93 found in Balkans till now and R-Z93 is so rare in south Balkans how can we be sure he is a Proto-Thracian?

[War Chef]

My comparison results for thresold 200-400

Largest segment = 0.3 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 0.3 cM (0.008 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

83984 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.312 Pct SNPs are full identical

Try to set your threshold to the minimum 25-400
This is what I got


Largest segment = 4.0 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 610.5 cM (17.035 Pct)

431 shared segments found for this comparison.

[Mingle]

Now red haired Thracian woman from Bulgaria make sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians#/media/File:Thrace-ostrusha.jpg

This thread is the worst nightmare for Bosniensis! :)

Not really. The red-haired Thracian that you're talking about appeared many centuries after this one. Between the Mid Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age, Proto-Thracians underwent a woggification process.

Iron Age Thracians were genetically Southern European: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?279424-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA

[Pribislav]

I uploaded Bronze Age Bulgarian I2163, whose Y-DNA was R1a (but Indo-Iranian branch Z93, not Slavic):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#11/42.1360/25.5602

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrovgrad,_Bulgaria

https://i.imgur.com/6HCLVgb.png

GEDmatch Genesis kit number - MW2273712

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 35.52
2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
3 Baltic 13.65
4 Atlantic 13.45
5 West_Asian 12.95
6 South_Asian 3.15
7 Amerindian 2.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 13.52
2 Swedish 15.34
3 Finnish 15.54
4 Southwest_Finnish 15.82
5 Norwegian 15.93
6 East_German 17.21
7 North_German 17.24
8 West_Norwegian 17.25
9 Danish 17.71
10 Hungarian 17.94
11 East_Finnish 18.02
12 North_Dutch 18.06
13 West_German 18.34
14 South_Polish 19.7
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.72
16 Ukrainian 19.84
17 Estonian 20.15
18 Orcadian 20.35
19 West_Scottish 20.42
20 South_Dutch 20.48

This also make sense now :) www.osterholm.net/thracian.html

[War Chef]

He is probably the first wave of Thraco-Cimmerians from the Srubna culture, see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

[xripkan]

Try to set your threshold to the minimum 25-400
This is what I got

If I set to the minimum 25 I get

Largest segment = 7.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1231.3 cM (34.411 Pct)

573 shared segments found for this comparison.

83984 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.312 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Pribislav]

Not really. The red-haired Thracian that you're talking about appeared many centuries after this one. Between the Mid Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age, Proto-Thracians underwent a woggification process.

Iron Age Thracians were genetically Southern European: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?279424-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA

So what?

Thracians from later period had genes of their iron age ancestors. Like modern South Slavs carry genes of own Old Slavic ancestos (plus paleo-Balkanite genes). South Slavs with Old Slavic looks exist.

[War Chef]

If I set to the minimum 25 I get

Largest segment = 7.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1231.3 cM (34.411 Pct)

573 shared segments found for this comparison.

83984 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.312 Pct SNPs are full identical

Woah. OK this guy was Proto-Mycenean/Dorian

[Mingle]

So what?

Thracians from later period had genes of their iron age ancestors. Like modern South Slavs carry genes of own Old Slavic ancestos (plus paleo-Balkanite genes). South Slavs with Old Slavic looks exist.

Yes, but I meant that they were genetically different people. One was North Euro and the other was South Euro.

[War Chef]

PROBABLY A SQUARE FACED CRO-MAGNID WARRIOR READY TO FUCK UP THE BALKANS AND IE-IZE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!

FUARK

[Pribislav]

Yes, but I meant that they were genetically different people. One was North Euro and the other was South Euro.

I thought Thracian woman had red hair due to her iron age northern ancestors like this R1a-Z93 guy. Of course she was genetically more southern this Z93 man.

I know boy with blue eyes. His paternal great-great-grandfather had blue eyes and all women since wife of his blue eyed ancestor to his mother had brown eyes. Boy carry blue eyes of ancestor and he has only 1/16 his dna.

[xripkan]

Woah. OK this guy was Proto-Mycenean/Dorian

He could also be a Thracian. Many Thracians were hellenized. What I find strange is that if IE settlers were partly R-Z93 then why this haplogroups is so rare at the Balkans.

[xripkan]

Yes, but I meant that they were genetically different people. One was North Euro and the other was South Euro.

So you think he was a Proto-Thracian?

[Pribislav]

So you think he was a Proto-Thracian?

He was proto-Thracian most likely. And maybe your paternal ancestor or at least cousin of your paternal ancestor. Yes, some Thracians were helenized in Roman time...

[Mingle]

So you think he was a Proto-Thracian?

I guess so, he fits the time period and geographical location. Don't know what else he could be. The Thracian language is also connected to Baltic by some.

[War Chef]

He could also be a Thracian. Many Thracians were hellenized. What I find strange is that if IE settlers were partly R-Z93 then why this haplogroups is so rare at the Balkans.

I like to think of Y-dna haplogroups as wall paint. Every new invading group paints over the wall and buries the previous Y-dna.

The most recent migrations/invasions are the ones that leave the haplogroup stamp, others get buried.

[xripkan]

I guess so, he fits the time period and geographical location. Don't know what else he could be. The Thracian language is also connected to Baltic by some.

Isn't it strange that R-Z93 is so rare in Greece and Bulgaria?

[xripkan]

I like to think of Y-dna haplogroups as wall paint. Every new invading group paints over the wall and buries the previous Y-dna.

The most recent migrations/invasions are the ones that leave the haplogroup stamp, others get buried.

This is an explanation. Especially if we assume that this happlo was the minority of the IE settlers.

[Mingle]

Isn't it strange that R-Z93 is so rare in Greece and Bulgaria?

I guess the Proto-Thracian population must have been quite small or R-Z93 was never common among them to begin with.

[Pribislav]

Isn't it strange that R-Z93 is so rare in Greece and Bulgaria?

I bealive R1a-Z93 was more common in ancient time in the Balkans than today.
A lot of Thracians died in wars against the Romans. Many Thracian served in Roman legions all over empire. In the middle age happened Hunic, Gothic, Avar, Slavic, Bulgar and other invasions. In the Roman period and middle age few plagues happened in Europe including Balkans. All these factors reduced Z93 I think, and probably some other haplogroups/branches.

[Leto]

Almost 21% Baloch, that's a lot. No modern European gets that much. Usually 10% or less. By the way, I have the same amount of NE Euro.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 56.1
2 Baloch 20.94
3 Mediterranean 11.48
4 Caucasian 7.33
5 American 1.91
6 W-African 0.62
7 Papuan 0.55
8 Beringian 0.51
9 S-Indian 0.31
10 E-African 0.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 mordovian (yunusbayev) 13.82
2 ukranian (yunusbayev) 15.41
3 russian (hgdp) 16.21
4 belorussian (behar) 16.87
5 russian (behar) 17.89
6 slovenian (xing) 19.11
7 lithuanian (behar) 19.69
8 hungarian (behar) 19.89
9 n-european (xing) 20.92
10 utahn-white (hapmap) 21.25
11 chuvash (behar) 21.56
12 orcadian (hgdp) 22.46
13 utahn-white (1000genomes) 22.69
14 british (1000genomes) 23.42
15 french (hgdp) 29.01
16 romanian-a (behar) 30.34
17 finnish (1000genomes) 30.36
18 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 32.22
19 italian (hgdp) 39.89
20 spaniard (behar) 40.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.2% lithuanian (behar) + 23.8% brahui (hgdp) @ 4.51
2 76% lithuanian (behar) + 24% makrani (hgdp) @ 4.82
3 75.7% lithuanian (behar) + 24.3% balochi (hgdp) @ 4.9
4 73.6% lithuanian (behar) + 26.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 6.73
5 73.9% lithuanian (behar) + 26.1% bhatia (harappa) @ 6.94
6 73.4% lithuanian (behar) + 26.6% pathan (hgdp) @ 7.28
7 69.1% lithuanian (behar) + 30.9% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 7.33
8 73.9% lithuanian (behar) + 26.1% burusho (hgdp) @ 7.66
9 80.3% belorussian (behar) + 19.7% brahui (hgdp) @ 7.81
10 76% lithuanian (behar) + 24% sindhi (hgdp) @ 7.82
11 72.6% lithuanian (behar) + 27.4% pashtun (harappa) @ 7.98
12 74.7% lithuanian (behar) + 25.3% sindhi (harappa) @ 8.06
13 80.1% belorussian (behar) + 19.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 8.32
14 76% lithuanian (behar) + 24% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 8.34
15 73.8% lithuanian (behar) + 26.2% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 8.41
16 80.4% belorussian (behar) + 19.6% makrani (hgdp) @ 8.45
17 71.5% lithuanian (behar) + 28.5% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 8.54
18 74.5% lithuanian (behar) + 25.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 8.63
19 81.6% russian (hgdp) + 18.4% brahui (hgdp) @ 8.71
20 85.1% mordovian (yunusbayev) + 14.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 8.77

[Pribislav]

Is there dodecad K12b?

[Leto]

Is there dodecad K12b?
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 53.83
2 Gedrosia 21.74
3 Atlantic_Med 17.64
4 Caucasus 4
5 South_Asian 1.22
6 Sub_Saharan 0.72
7 Siberian 0.46
8 Southeast_Asian 0.39

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Swedish (Dodecad) 19.6
2 German (Dodecad) 20.93
3 Norwegian (Dodecad) 21.5
4 Mordovians (Yunusbayev) 21.83
5 Hungarians (Behar) 22.09
6 Polish (Dodecad) 22.77
7 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 23.06
8 Russian (Dodecad) 23.16
9 Russian (HGDP) 23.35
10 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 23.74
11 Ukranians (Yunusbayev) 23.95
12 Dutch (Dodecad) 24.06
13 Argyll (1000Genomes) 24.91
14 Russian_B (Behar) 25.19
15 Belorussian (Behar) 25.22
16 Orkney (1000Genomes) 25.54
17 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 25.85
18 English (Dodecad) 26.03
19 Orcadian (HGDP) 26.18
20 Kent (1000Genomes) 26.51

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.3% Lithuanians (Behar) + 29.7% Brahui (HGDP) @ 7.95
2 71.9% Lithuanian (Dodecad) + 28.1% Brahui (HGDP) @ 8.53
3 69.1% Lithuanians (Behar) + 30.9% Balochi (HGDP) @ 8.64
4 69% Lithuanians (Behar) + 31% Makrani (HGDP) @ 9.04
5 70.9% Lithuanian (Dodecad) + 29.1% Balochi (HGDP) @ 9.42
6 74.3% Belorussian (Behar) + 25.7% Brahui (HGDP) @ 9.44
7 76.5% Polish (Dodecad) + 23.5% Brahui (HGDP) @ 9.5
8 76.2% Russian (Dodecad) + 23.8% Brahui (HGDP) @ 9.51
9 72.3% FIN30 (1000Genomes) + 27.7% Brahui (HGDP) @ 9.78
10 71.1% FIN30 (1000Genomes) + 28.9% Balochi (HGDP) @ 9.88
11 70.7% Lithuanian (Dodecad) + 29.3% Makrani (HGDP) @ 9.92
12 71.1% Finnish (Dodecad) + 28.9% Brahui (HGDP) @ 9.96
13 69.8% Finnish (Dodecad) + 30.2% Balochi (HGDP) @ 10.03
14 76.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 23.5% Brahui (HGDP) @ 10.07
15 70.9% FIN30 (1000Genomes) + 29.1% Makrani (HGDP) @ 10.11
16 69.6% Finnish (Dodecad) + 30.4% Makrani (HGDP) @ 10.26
17 75.8% Polish (Dodecad) + 24.2% Balochi (HGDP) @ 10.38
18 75.4% Russian (Dodecad) + 24.6% Balochi (HGDP) @ 10.44
19 73.5% Belorussian (Behar) + 26.5% Balochi (HGDP) @ 10.49
20 75.4% Russian (Dodecad) + 24.6% Makrani (HGDP) @ 10.99

Gedrosia = Baloch.

[Pribislav]

I bealive Scythians from same period were similar autosomally as this proto-Thracian.

[War Chef]

Admix Results (sorted):



Why you trying to hide the fact that this dude is almost 1/4 kavkaz, are you some but-hurt Russian patriot who doesn't like Chechens? You just call it "baloch" when it could equally be any Kavkaz group. Give credit where credit is due, my amigo.

Another evidence of admixture from Maykop culture. It is already known.

The question is not if, but WHAT did Maykop do to the Indo-European story, because they for sure didn't speak PIE.

My guess is provide pastoral animals + advanced Metallurgy techniques.

Caucasus = the spark that exploded the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

[Leto]

Why you trying to hide the fact that this dude is almost 1/4 kavkaz, are you some but-hurt Russian patriot who doesn't like Chechens? You just call it "baloch" when it could equally be any Kavkaz group. Give credit where credit is due, my amigo.

Another evidence of admixture from Maykop culture. It is already known.

The question is not if, but WHAT did Maykop do to the Indo-European story, because they for sure didn't speak PIE.

My guess is provide pastoral animals + advanced Metallurgy techniques.

Caucasus = the spark that exploded the Proto-Indo-Europeans.
Get the hell out with your attacks, Baloch/Gedrosia is not the same as Caucasus. Yes, I strongly dislike those primitive Muzzrats but this has nothing to do with the subject. I could flood this thread with results of modern Europeans that get double digit amounts of Caucasus, that's no novelty to anyone here.

[Leto]

Only the BA samples get that amount of Gedrosia/Baloch, modern Europeans get more Caucasus than Gedrosia. My scores for example:

Baloch 7.77
Caucasian 9.28

And this sample has 21% Baloch.

Bronze Age Silesian:

Baloch 17.89
Caucasian 1.83
NE-Euro 57.25
Mediterranean 20.23

[Freeroostah]

Proto-Indoeuropean , ancestor of Scythians and Cimmerians
There is no way Thracians were that north shifted

[tipirneni]

Largest segment = 3.0 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 23.5 cM (0.655 Pct)

15 shared segments found for this comparison.

279271 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.669 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Arhat]

Almost 21% Baloch, that's a lot. No modern European gets that much. Usually 10% or less. By the way, I have the same amount of NE Euro.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 56.1
2 Baloch 20.94
3 Mediterranean 11.48
4 Caucasian 7.33
5 American 1.91
6 W-African 0.62
7 Papuan 0.55
8 Beringian 0.51
9 S-Indian 0.31
10 E-African 0.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 mordovian (yunusbayev) 13.82
2 ukranian (yunusbayev) 15.41
3 russian (hgdp) 16.21
4 belorussian (behar) 16.87
5 russian (behar) 17.89
6 slovenian (xing) 19.11
7 lithuanian (behar) 19.69
8 hungarian (behar) 19.89
9 n-european (xing) 20.92
10 utahn-white (hapmap) 21.25
11 chuvash (behar) 21.56
12 orcadian (hgdp) 22.46
13 utahn-white (1000genomes) 22.69
14 british (1000genomes) 23.42
15 french (hgdp) 29.01
16 romanian-a (behar) 30.34
17 finnish (1000genomes) 30.36
18 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 32.22
19 italian (hgdp) 39.89
20 spaniard (behar) 40.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.2% lithuanian (behar) + 23.8% brahui (hgdp) @ 4.51
2 76% lithuanian (behar) + 24% makrani (hgdp) @ 4.82
3 75.7% lithuanian (behar) + 24.3% balochi (hgdp) @ 4.9
4 73.6% lithuanian (behar) + 26.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 6.73
5 73.9% lithuanian (behar) + 26.1% bhatia (harappa) @ 6.94
6 73.4% lithuanian (behar) + 26.6% pathan (hgdp) @ 7.28
7 69.1% lithuanian (behar) + 30.9% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 7.33
8 73.9% lithuanian (behar) + 26.1% burusho (hgdp) @ 7.66
9 80.3% belorussian (behar) + 19.7% brahui (hgdp) @ 7.81
10 76% lithuanian (behar) + 24% sindhi (hgdp) @ 7.82
11 72.6% lithuanian (behar) + 27.4% pashtun (harappa) @ 7.98
12 74.7% lithuanian (behar) + 25.3% sindhi (harappa) @ 8.06
13 80.1% belorussian (behar) + 19.9% balochi (hgdp) @ 8.32
14 76% lithuanian (behar) + 24% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 8.34
15 73.8% lithuanian (behar) + 26.2% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 8.41
16 80.4% belorussian (behar) + 19.6% makrani (hgdp) @ 8.45
17 71.5% lithuanian (behar) + 28.5% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 8.54
18 74.5% lithuanian (behar) + 25.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 8.63
19 81.6% russian (hgdp) + 18.4% brahui (hgdp) @ 8.71
20 85.1% mordovian (yunusbayev) + 14.9% brahui (hgdp) @ 8.77


Baluch is not a real ancient component. This entire calculator is based on modern components so it gives weird results for ancient people. Early Indo-Europeans get so much Baluch here because they had CHG ancestry which was from the Caucasus/southern steppe but less EEF-shifted than modern day Caucasian ancestry so the calculator chooses Baluchs because Baluch have a lot of Iran_Neolithic ancestry which is similar to CHG but actually early Indo-Europeans had no direct genetic connection to Gedrosia.

[Arhat]

I uploaded Bronze Age Bulgarian I2163, whose Y-DNA was R1a (but Indo-Iranian branch Z93, not Slavic):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#11/42.1360/25.5602

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrovgrad,_Bulgaria

https://i.imgur.com/6HCLVgb.png

GEDmatch Genesis kit number - MW2273712

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 35.52
2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
3 Baltic 13.65
4 Atlantic 13.45
5 West_Asian 12.95
6 South_Asian 3.15
7 Amerindian 2.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 13.52
2 Swedish 15.34
3 Finnish 15.54
4 Southwest_Finnish 15.82
5 Norwegian 15.93
6 East_German 17.21
7 North_German 17.24
8 West_Norwegian 17.25
9 Danish 17.71
10 Hungarian 17.94
11 East_Finnish 18.02
12 North_Dutch 18.06
13 West_German 18.34
14 South_Polish 19.7
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.72
16 Ukrainian 19.84
17 Estonian 20.15
18 Orcadian 20.35
19 West_Scottish 20.42
20 South_Dutch 20.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.5% North_Swedish + 24.5% Tabassaran @ 7.58
2 77.6% North_Swedish + 22.4% Lezgin @ 8.3
3 79% North_Swedish + 21% Chechen @ 8.67
4 73.4% Swedish + 26.6% Tabassaran @ 9.11
5 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Adygei @ 9.45
6 82.1% North_Swedish + 17.9% Ossetian @ 9.52
7 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Tabassaran @ 9.53
8 80.9% North_Swedish + 19.1% Kabardin @ 9.57
9 80.3% North_Swedish + 19.7% Afghan_Pashtun @ 9.58
10 82.5% North_Swedish + 17.5% Kalash @ 9.59
11 80.1% North_Swedish + 19.9% Kumyk @ 9.61
12 82.3% North_Swedish + 17.7% North_Ossetian @ 9.62
13 84.8% North_Swedish + 15.2% Abhkasian @ 9.66
14 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Balkar @ 9.72
15 75.6% Swedish + 24.4% Lezgin @ 9.77
16 84.2% North_Swedish + 15.8% Georgian @ 9.81
17 70.5% West_Norwegian + 29.5% Tabassaran @ 9.87
18 83.5% North_Swedish + 16.5% Balochi @ 10.04
19 74.8% Norwegian + 25.2% Lezgin @ 10.11
20 84% North_Swedish + 16% Brahui @ 10.13

Eurogenes K15 PCA:

Abscisse (x-axis): 534 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 144 pixel

https://i.imgur.com/FvAghvC.png

Similarity Maps:

Russia & Asia:

https://i.imgur.com/pKDbtSS.png

And Europe:

https://i.imgur.com/9Ei4KCZ.png


You confuse many people by using calculators based on modern people for ancient people. You can not model ancient people with components based on modern populations which partially descendant from them. He was not closest to Swedes . If anything he was closest to Lithuanians but Lithuanians and other Balto-Slavs have a lot of recent genetic drift which seems to make them more distant from ancient people even if they are actually closest to them.

[Pubiczar]

Without adjusting the threshold:

Largest segment = 3.3 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 3.7 cM (0.102 Pct)

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

279810 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.869 Pct SNPs are full identical

[pelikarski]

He looks totally out of place in modern Southern Europe.

Was he a recent immigrant to Bulgaria from the Steppes?

Do they look like they have steppe admixture? Some commented yes
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?266790-Bulgarians-from-Dimitrovgrad-Thrace

[dosas]

I get:


Largest segment = 4.1 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 413.0 cM (11.526 Pct)

278 shared segments found for this comparison.

273946 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.729 Pct SNPs are full identical.

I am not sure what's the point of these Genesis admixture comparisons, though :confused:.

[Pubiczar]

I get:



I am not sure what's the point of these Genesis admixture comparisons, though :confused:.

278 shared segments is too much...
Leave threshold on default for more trustworthy results.

[Kaspias]

Without adjusting the threshold:

Largest segment = 3.3 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 3.7 cM (0.102 Pct)

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

279810 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.869 Pct SNPs are full identical

My first match

Largest segment = 3.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 80.9 cM (2.259 Pct)

57 shared segments found for this comparison.

273839 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.776 Pct SNPs are full identical

[dosas]

278 shared segments is too much...
Leave threshold on default for more trustworthy results.


Largest segment = 2.9 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 12.3 cM (0.343 Pct)

5 shared segments found for this comparison.

273946 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.729 Pct SNPs are full identical.

Does that make more sense?

[Pubiczar]

Does that make more sense?

Well it does make more sense...
Matching an ancient samples is not different than matching a modern human.
It means you share a common ancestor.
However the match with the ancient sample would be of much smaller segments because the common ancestor you share with the ancient is probably much further back in time than with the modern humans.

[Pubiczar]

My comparison results for thresold 200-400

Largest segment = 0.3 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 0.3 cM (0.008 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

83984 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.312 Pct SNPs are full identical

Is this with 23andme V5 data?

For my comparison I used MyHeritage raw data which is much better and with more SNPs than 23andMe.

[dosas]

I can't believe myheritage has the best raw file. They're pretty much crap for everything else, lulz :p.

[Pubiczar]

I can't believe myheritage has the best raw file. They're pretty much crap for everything else, lulz :p.

It's not about the calculator.
It's about the raw data which is far superior than 23andMe V5!
Just look at the SNPs compared when using 23andMe V5 vs MyHeritage.
It's not even comparable.

[Kaspias]

I can't believe myheritage has the best raw file. They're pretty much crap for everything else, lulz :p.

FTDNA > MyHeritage = Ancestry > 23andMe

[Pubiczar]

FTDNA > MyHeritage = Ancestry > 23andMe

FTDNA and MyHeritage produce equally quality raw data.
Both use the same chip and laboratory in Houston, US!

[Kaspias]

FTDNA and MyHeritage produce equally quality raw data.
Both use the same chip and laboratory in Houston, US!

FTDNA has about 30.000 more SNP. I have both company's raw data and slightly different results.

[Pubiczar]

FTDNA has about 30.000 more SNP. I have both company's raw data and slightly different results.

Mine with this sample: 279810 SNPs used for this comparison.

Yours: 273839 SNPs used for this comparison.

[Kaspias]

Mine with this sample: 279810 SNPs used for this comparison.

Yours: 273839 SNPs used for this comparison.

Eurogenes K13:

MyHeritage: 152005 SNPs used in this evaluation
FTDNA: 174798 SNPs used in this evaluation

[Pubiczar]

Eurogenes K13:

MyHeritage: 152005 SNPs used in this evaluation
FTDNA: 174798 SNPs used in this evaluation

My Eurogenes K13 with My heritage:

178993 SNPs used in this evaluation

[Pubiczar]

Compare it with 23andMe joke:

58704 SNPs used in this evaluation

[Kaspias]

My Eurogenes K13 with My heritage:

178993 SNPs used in this evaluation


Okay. So?

[Pubiczar]

Okay. So?

So what?
MyHeritage is equally good to FTDNA raw data in case you forgot we we're arguing about that.

[Kaspias]

So what?
MyHeritage is equally good to FTDNA raw data in case you forgot we we're arguing about that.


Eurogenes K13:

MyHeritage: 152005 SNPs used in this evaluation
FTDNA: 174798 SNPs used in this evaluation

"Equal"

[xripkan]

Is this with 23andme V5 data?

For my comparison I used MyHeritage raw data which is much better and with more SNPs than 23andMe.

Yes this is with 23andme V5. What I am thinking is if all of us have common segment with this 3700 years ago sample we are his descendants or his relative's descendants. This enhances the fact that he could be a Proto-Thracian.

[Peterski]

You confuse many people by using calculators based on modern people for ancient people. You can not model ancient people with components based on modern populations which partially descendant from them. He was not closest to Swedes . If anything he was closest to Lithuanians but Lithuanians and other Balto-Slavs have a lot of recent genetic drift which seems to make them more distant from ancient people even if they are actually closest to them.

I agree, but the thing is - once you remove this recent Balto-Slavic specific drift, there is not much difference in frequencies of ancient components / admixtures between Balto-Slavs and Scandinavians. This can be demonstrated in calculators which do not take into account this Balto-Slavic drift. For example puntDNAL K15 - in this calculator I am closest to Poles and my 2nd closest population are Swedes:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_European 63.86
2 Mediterranean 23.07
3 Caucasian 8.62
4 SW_Asian 2.75
5 Omo_River 0.51
6 Horn_Of_Africa 0.42
7 Beringian 0.36
8 S_African 0.26
9 Wht_Nile_River 0.11
10 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Polish 2.06
2 Swedish 4.03
3 Norwegian 6.35
4 North_German 6.79
5 Belarusian 7.58
6 Slovenian 7.94
7 Scottish 8.18
8 Austrian 8.36
9 Orcadian 8.57
10 Irish 8.96
11 Russian 9.03
12 Hungarian 9.25
13 Mordovian 9.39
14 English 9.55
15 Karelian 10
16 Finnish 11.06
17 Lithuanian 11.07
18 Croatian 11.26
19 Utahn_White 12.85
20 South_German 13.53

[Pubiczar]

Eurogenes K13:

MyHeritage: 152005 SNPs used in this evaluation
FTDNA: 174798 SNPs used in this evaluation

"Equal"

My raw data from My heritage is obviously better than yours since it's using more SNPs for evaluation.
I've done the test with My heritage in November 2017.
When did you do your test with MyHeritage?
There might be some changes since then...

[xripkan]

Eurogenes K13:

MyHeritage: 152005 SNPs used in this evaluation
FTDNA: 174798 SNPs used in this evaluation

This is from my comparison results: 83984 SNPs used for this comparison.

[Pubiczar]

Yes this is with 3andme V5. What I am thinking is if all of us have common segment with this 3700 years ago sample we are his descendants or his relative's descendants. This enhances the fact that he could be a Proto-Thracian.

Depends how far in time this matching segment is?
If it's 4000+ old it could be ancestral for Mycenaeans, Illyrians, Thracians and many other ancient people.

I believe segment long 3 - 4 cM date to 3000 - 4000 ybp!

[xripkan]

Depends how far in time this matching segment is?
If it's 4000+ old it could be ancestral for Mycenaeans, Illyrians, Thracians and many other ancient people.

I believe segment long 3 - 4 cM date to 3000 - 4000 ybp!

What we know at least for the Myceneans is that when they arrived in Balkans had little steppe admixture: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
So I doubt if he is a Proto-Mycenean.

[Lemgrant]

Compare it with 23andMe joke:

58704 SNPs used in this evaluation

23andme V3: 175516 SNPs used in this evaluation
23andme V5: 58307 SNPs used in this evaluation

you can try this:
https://wilhelmhgenealogy.wordpress.com/convert-23andme-to-myheritage-and-gedmatch-classic/

and you will have 160K+ SNPs (the accuracy of converted file is questionable)

[Turul Karom]

R1a-Z93, Turanid steppe DNA.

Árpad dynasty of Hungary = R1a-Z93

Osman dynasty of Anatolian Turkey = R1a-Z93

Now this Turkic Bulgar = R1a-Z93

Truly an amazing time of science in the history of steppe peoples.

[Carpatz]

R1a-Z93

I wonder how typical this was in Thracians.

[Slavic Italian]

Largest segment = 1.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1.2 cM (0.032 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

407383 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.022 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.255 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.042 cpu seconds.

[IncelSlayer]

lmfaooooo at this stupid potato head polack again trying to make proto-greeks some kind of steppe sminem pig faced swede like people

[xripkan]

Is this with 23andme V5 data?

For my comparison I used MyHeritage raw data which is much better and with more SNPs than 23andMe.

I converted V5 to V3 and I uploaded on Gedmatch. This is what I get with V3 on thresold 200-400:

Largest segment = 1.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 3.1 cM (0.087 Pct)

3 shared segments found for this comparison.

[Pubiczar]

I converted V5 to V3 and I uploaded on Gedmatch. This is what I get with V3 on thresold 200-400:

Largest segment = 1.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 3.1 cM (0.087 Pct)

3 shared segments found for this comparison.

As expected...
V5 is a joke in terms of raw data.
I am very happy I had tested with MyHeritage (not uploaded)!

[Bosniensis]

I wonder how typical this was in Thracians.

When Thracians colonized Southern Europe, when they moved from Anatolia they mixed with those R1a people, hence Thracian community was enriched by R1a since very long time, same with J2a and R1b.

[Pribislav]

When Thracians colonized Southern Europe, when they moved from Anatolia they mixed with those R1a people, hence Thracian community was enriched by R1a since very long time, same with J2a and R1b.

Real Thracians were R1a-Z93.
When they settled to Balkans from Pontic stepe they mixed with E1b and J2 wogs.
Thracian language was IE and came from R1a-Z93.

[War Chef]

So I have a 3.6 cM segment with this guy...........



Largest segment = 3.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 8.6 cM (0.239 Pct)

6 shared segments found for this comparison.

407153 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.121 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Bosniensis]

Real Thracians were R1a-Z93.
When they settled to Balkans from Pontic stepe they mixed with E1b and J2 wogs.
Thracian language was IE and came from R1a-Z93.

I doubt cause Thracians worshiped Sumerian diety's like Apollo, Hermes, Dyonisius etc.. Also in 1500 B.C. they already had a great Empire in Anatolia and were fighting Egyptians on regular basis.

Troy was a capital city of Thracian people in 1200 B.C. their ruler had a title called "Rheas" Egyptians called their ruler "Teresh of Troy"

They even wrote: "Teresh of Troy with Dardani people are harrasing our lands" something like that.

Later around 1000 B.C. they established themselves in Bulgaria then Western Balkans.

You theory doesn't make any sense because Greeks said: "Thracians are the oldest people"

Thracians mined in Thassos (Greek Island) when there wasn't a single Greek on Balkan peninsula or Europe.

Told you 10 times to watch this video, and you didn't... after you see this video you will understand why Thracians are not Indo European people:

Start from 20 minute:


https://youtu.be/wxjwMKqkeAM?t=1203

[Pribislav]

I doubt cause Thracians worshiped Sumerian diety's like Apollo, Hermes, Dyonisius etc.. Also in 1500 B.C. they already had a great Empire in Anatolia and were fighting Egyptians on regular basis.

Troy was a capital city of Thracian people in 1200 B.C. their ruler had a title called "Rheas" Egyptians called their ruler "Teresh of Troy"

They even wrote: "Teresh of Troy with Dardani people are harrasing our lands" something like that.

Later around 1000 B.C. they established themselves in Bulgaria then Western Balkans.

You theory doesn't make any sense because Greeks said: "Thracians are the oldest people"

Thracians mined in Thassos (Greek Island) when there wasn't a single Greek on Balkan peninsula or Europe.

Told you 10 times to watch this video, and you didn't... after you see this video you will understand why Thracians are not Indo European people:

Start from 20 minute:


https://youtu.be/wxjwMKqkeAM?t=1203

This R1a-Z93 very northern ploting Thracian deny your mythomania.

www.osterholm.net/thracian.html

[Bosniensis]

This R1a-Z93 very northern ploting Thracian deny your mythomania.

www.osterholm.net/thracian.html

It's not mythomania, I have entire Romanian, Bulgarian college that agrees with me, while you have that website.... ridiculous.

Mythomania is to believe that Indo-Europeans (Attila, Arpads etc..) have anything to do with Eastern and Western Mediterranean civilizations except hostility.

[Pribislav]

It's not mythomania, I have entire Romanian, Bulgarian college that agrees with me, while you have that website.... ridiculous.

Mythomania is to believe that Indo-Europeans (Attila, Arpads etc..) have anything to do with Eastern and Western Mediterranean civilizations except hostility.

Genetic researches > any sources

[Dick]

No shared segments found

[War Chef]

No shared segments found

Took me a while to figure this out. Actualy you just have to change the segment length from the default 7, to 1.

[Ford]

Well it does make more sense...
Matching an ancient samples is not different than matching a modern human.
It means you share a common ancestor.
However the match with the ancient sample would be of much smaller segments because the common ancestor you share with the ancient is probably much further back in time than with the modern humans.

I think you need to look at the number of SNPs on the matched segments, because smaller segments could be identical by state .

[Moje ime]

Comparing Kit MW2273712 (I2163 Bronze Age Bulgaria) [-] and ...

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.




Largest segment = 1.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1.5 cM (0.042 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

273732 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.214 Pct SNPs are full identical

.

[Pubiczar]

I think you need to look at the number of SNPs on the matched segments, because smaller segments could be identical by state .

Well there is always a possibility a segment to actually be IBS rather than IBD.
Not adjusting the minimum SNPs threshold is one possibility to eliminate that but I guess you can't be a hundred percent sure.
I am not a geneticist by profession, maybe you can give us more clues about this?

[Ford]

Well there is always a possibility a segment to actually be IBS rather than IBD.
Not adjusting the minimum SNPs threshold is one possibility to eliminate that but I guess you can't be a hundred percent sure.
I am not a geneticist by profession, maybe you can give us more clues about this?

I'm not a geneticist either, but I would say that the number one way is by observing the number of SNPs (for smaller segments). You could also test your parents to compare the matched segments (i.e. if they also match them), but I think in the end that ancient matches are very ambiguous. However, if you manage to reach matching segments at like 7cM the probability obviously increases, with having a 12-15cM match being definitely real.

[Bosniensis]

Comparing Kit MW2273712 (I2163 Bronze Age Bulgaria) [-] and ...

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.




Largest segment = 1.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1.5 cM (0.042 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

273732 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.214 Pct SNPs are full identical

.

How do you do that?

I don't have largest segment or HIR form to fill in

is that GEDmatch® Genesis One-to-one
Autosomal Comparison Entry Form?


edit: I got it

[Pubiczar]

I'm not a geneticist either, but I would say that the number one way is by observing the number of SNPs (for smaller segments). You could also test your parents to compare the matched segments (i.e. if they also match them), but I think in the end that ancient matches are very ambiguous. However, if you manage to reach matching segments at like 7cM the probability obviously increases, with having a 12-15cM match being definitely real.

I honestly think that there is no way to match an ancient sample with 7cM or 12-15 cM long segment.
I think that the matching segments are actually like a time line, or in other words, larger the segment, more recent common ancestor you share, smaller the segment, more chances of a more distant ancestor or still a recent ancestor but by chance of selection you haven't inherited the same genes hence no larger segment.
For example, I've observed something with my matches, all my Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Slovak or Czech matches I match with no larger than 11 cM segments.
Most are around 9 cM long.
That might be telling that the shared ancestry (the Slavic one in this case) or the shared segments are dated to the 9th century AD at most.
There is a wrong presumption that the Slavic tribes in the Balkans came in 6th century.
Actually Slavic people were flooding the Balkans all the way to the beginning of 10th century when the Magyars arrived and the last Northern Slavic people that migrated to the Balkans were survivors of the Moravian kingdom.
So, my point is 9 - 11 cM large segments = 600 to 900 AD.
Of course this is not scientifically proven and is my personal theory so don't take it for granted however feel free to discuss!

[Bosniensis]

Largest segment = 1.0 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1.0 cM (0.028 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

272751 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.377 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.294 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.042 cpu seconds.

[Moje ime]

How do you do that?

I don't have largest segment or HIR form to fill in

is that GEDmatch® Genesis One-to-one
Autosomal Comparison Entry Form?


edit: I got it

It is GEDmatch® Genesis One-to-one
Autosomal Comparison Entry Form and I only change minimum segment to 1

[Ayetooey]

Didn’t match at 1cm. Looks like I only match with the two dalmatians; I don’t match with this or the “Thracian” from Iron Age.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Largest segment = 4.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 421.8 cM (11.769 Pct)

288 shared segments found for this comparison.

251423 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.981 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Ayetooey]

Largest segment = 4.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 421.8 cM (11.769 Pct)

288 shared segments found for this comparison.

251423 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.981 Pct SNPs are full identical

Is that at default or lowered snp?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Is that at default or lowered snp?

Adjusted.

[Ayetooey]

Adjusted.

Ah; at 50 snp I get a match. Nothing at default tho.

Largest segment = 4.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 428.0 cM (11.943 Pct)

[Bosniensis]

Adjusted.

Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM ?

can you post all settings.

[Ayetooey]

Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM ?

Try it at 1cm first, then try it at 1cm, but change the SNP window to 50.

[Ayetooey]

Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM ?

can you post all settings.

Run yourself against this at 1cm also. Another ancient Dalmatian.

RL6378186

[Moje ime]

Try it at 1cm first, then try it at 1cm, but change the SNP window to 50.

But under SNP 200 makes no sense.

[Dick]

No shared segments even at 1cm

[Bosniensis]

Run yourself against this at 1cm also. Another ancient Dalmatian.

RL6378186

Bronze Bulgarian:

Largest segment = 3.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 405.1 cM (11.306 Pct)

268 shared segments found for this comparison.

272751 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.377 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.298 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.039 cpu seconds.

Dalmatian RL6378186

Largest segment = 4.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 387.4 cM (10.812 Pct)

259 shared segments found for this comparison.

244966 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.635 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Ayetooey]

But under SNP 200 makes no sense.

It's just for fun.

[Ayetooey]

Bronze Bulgarian:

Largest segment = 3.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 405.1 cM (11.306 Pct)

268 shared segments found for this comparison.

272751 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.377 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.298 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.039 cpu seconds.

Dalmatian RL6378186

Largest segment = 4.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 387.4 cM (10.812 Pct)

259 shared segments found for this comparison.

244966 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.635 Pct SNPs are full identical

Are these at 50 SNP or default SNP?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM ?

can you post all settings.

I set it to 3cM and 50 SNP usually.

[Bosniensis]

Are these at 50 SNP or default SNP?

50

on 100 I get ~25 segments

[Dick]

This worked;50snp x 3cm

Largest segment = 5.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 56.1 cM (1.566 Pct)

14 shared segments found for this comparison.

297562 SNPs used for this comparison.

57.210 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Moje ime]

What do you get without adjucting SNP? I match only Bulgarian in that case, not Dalmatian.

[Bosniensis]

What do you get without adjucting SNP? I match only Bulgarian in that case, not Dalmatian.

People were trolling me for not matching with anyone, yet nobody told me about "adjusting" till today. Cheaters.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

What do you get without adjucting SNP? I match only Bulgarian in that case, not Dalmatian.

I match first Dalmatian who was posted without adjusting.

[Dick]

People were trolling me for not matching with anyone, yet nobody told me about "adjusting" till today. Cheaters.

You will match a monkey if you adjust a lower snp

[Ayetooey]

Without adjusting I match both Dalmatians, Norwegian I2a hunter gatherer, and neolithic Scotland. :p

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

People were trolling me for not matching with anyone, yet nobody told me about "adjusting" till today. Cheaters.

Your matches are very weak even when adjusted.

[Bosniensis]

You will match a monkey if you adjust a lower snp

with default settings I don't match any Balkan or Dalmatian samples, is there Ancient Belorussian or Ukrainain. Would like to try on that one.. I must match somewhere xD

[Bosniensis]

Your matches are very weak even when adjusted.

I know, it's because I am more mixed with extremes North + South, I doubt I will get match anywhere.

[Ayetooey]

You will match a monkey if you adjust a lower snp

Take it to 25 SNP and one could probably match an Apple genetically.

I think 1CM and default SNP is the best way to check against these ancient samples tbh; lowering the SNP is just for fun.

[Proto-Shaman]

He is probably the first wave of Thraco-Cimmerians from the Srubna culture, see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

A recent DNA analysis of three Cimmerians indicate "the appearance of East Asian haplogroups in the steppe populations might be associated with the Iron Age nomads, starting with the Cimmerians."[29] The authors found it "noteworthy that the oldest of the Cimmerians studied here (cim357) carried almost equal proportions of Asian and West Eurasian components, resembling the Pazyryks, Aldy-Bel, and Iron Age individuals from Russia and Kazakhstan. The second oldest Cimmerian (cim358) was also the only one with both uniparental markers pointing toward East Asia. The Q1* Y chromosome sublineage of Q-M242 is widespread among Asians and Native Americans and is thought to have originated in the Altai Mountains. It has previously been identified in numerous ancient samples from Siberia, the Americas, and in representatives of the Siberian Bronze Age and nomadic populations. This is the first indication that Cimmerians did not originate in the PCS region but were nomads tracing their origin to the Far East."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#Genetics

[Proto-Shaman]

R1a-Z93, Turanid steppe DNA.

Árpad dynasty of Hungary = R1a-Z93

Osman dynasty of Anatolian Turkey = R1a-Z93

Now this Turkic Bulgar = R1a-Z93

Truly an amazing time of science in the history of steppe peoples.

Khazars and Gokturks were also Z93.

In TOTAL: 5 different historical Turkic peoples with R1a Z93 + Iron Age Scytho-Turanid Z93 steppe samples + predominant distribution of Z93 among modern Turkics. And not even 1 historical Indo-Iranian tribe with R1a.

BUT HEY WE ARE STILL INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

Even Attila, the Turk within, with 1000 Turkic relatives, was INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

nice logic, as always :thumb001:

[lonewolfcypriot]

So the Hypoboreans were real, this guy is clearly one of them.

[Arhat]

Khazars and Gokturks were also Z93.

In TOTAL: 5 different historical Turkic peoples with R1a Z93 + Iron Age Scytho-Turanid Z93 steppe DNA samples + predominant distribution of Z93 among modern Turkics. And not even 1 historical Indo-Iranian tribe with R1a.

BUT HEY WE ARE STILL INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

Even Attila, the Turk within, with 1000 Turkic relatives, was INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

nice logic, as always :thumb001:

My R1a-Z93 line was found in Sredny Stog and this people were just a steppe+ EEF mix without anything turkic related. Sorry but R1a-Z93 is just an eastern Corded Ware/Sredny Stog line which migrated from the Middle Dnjepr region to Central Russia (Fatyanovo-Balanovo/Abashevo) and from there they entered the Ural region where they mixed with Poltavka tribes and created the Sintashta/Andronovo culture.

[Bosniensis]

I've just noticed something:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 35.52
2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
3 Baltic 13.65
4 Atlantic 13.45
5 West_Asian 12.95
6 South_Asian 3.15
7 Amerindian 2.05

This Bronze Bulgarian doesn't have Eastern Mediterranean or Western Mediterranean at all

If we assume this sample is 4500 years old then it makes sense.

Cause Eastern and Western Mediterranean people were still in Anatolia at that time.

[War Chef]

If we assume this sample is 4500 years old then it makes sense.

Cause Eastern and Western Mediterranean people were still in Anatolia at that time.

Ummm no. At this time, farming was well-established in Bulgaria and Balkan-farmers even made a base in central Europe (LBK culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture)).

This man has no west+east Mediteranean because he is a direct transplant from the Srubna culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubnaya_culture) and had yet to find any Sardinian-like women to breed with.

[Bosniensis]

I've just noticed something:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 35.52
2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
3 Baltic 13.65
4 Atlantic 13.45
5 West_Asian 12.95
6 South_Asian 3.15
7 Amerindian 2.05

This Bronze Bulgarian doesn't have Eastern Mediterranean or Western Mediterranean at all

If we assume this sample is 4500 years old then it makes sense.

Cause Eastern and Western Mediterranean people were still in Anatolia at that time.

COMPARISON Bulgarian Bronze vs Dalmatian Bronze

Dalmatian "Roman" (later Bronze Age sample)

-> Less North Sea
-> West and East Med present (Romans)
-> Double Atlantic (Northern Italian connection)
-> West Asian Similar (lydian connection)
-> Baltic less double
-> Non-existent Eastern Euro

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 23.44 (Northern Italian Celtic)
2 West_Med 22.65 (Roman)
3 Atlantic 22.42 (Northern Italian Celtic)
4 East_Med 15.28 (Roman)
5 West_Asian 8.93 (Ancient Anatolian pre-European Migration leftover)
6 Baltic 4.91
7 Eastern_Euro 1.65
8 Red_Sea 0.72
9 Amerindian 0.01

Modern Serbian

1 Baltic 17.96
2 North_Sea 16.35
3 Atlantic 15.67
4 Eastern_Euro 13.32
5 West_Med 12.61
6 East_Med 11.78
7 West_Asian 8.06


To me modern Serbian is basically MIX of Bulgarian Bronze Age + Roman Late Bronze Age.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

There were no Romans in Dalmatia in late Bronze Age.

[Bosniensis]

There were no Romans in Dalmatia in late Bronze Age.

I meant people out of whom Romans emerged... eventually.. maybe Etruscan like people

Etruscan civilization existed in 1000 B.C. that's before Iron Age or Early Iron Age.

Those people in Dalmatia might have been related to them .

[Blondie]

R1a-Z93, Turanid steppe DNA.

Árpad dynasty of Hungary = R1a-Z93

Osman dynasty of Anatolian Turkey = R1a-Z93

Now this Turkic Bulgar = R1a-Z93

Truly an amazing time of science in the history of steppe peoples.

R1a-z93 is iranic marker not turkic.

"Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers, the people who later called themselves 'Aryans' in the Rig Veda and the Avesta, originated in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), in the Tobol and Ishim valleys, east of the Ural Mountains. It was founded by pastoralist nomads from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE), ranging from the upper Don-Volga to the Ural Mountains, and the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), extending from the lower Don-Volga to the Caspian depression.

The Sintashta-Petrovka culture, associated with R1a-Z93 and its subclades, was the first Bronze Age advance of the Indo-Europeans west of the Urals, opening the way to the vast plains and deserts of Central Asia to the metal-rich Altai mountains. The Aryans quickly expanded over all Central Asia, from the shores of the Caspian to southern Siberia and the Tian Shan, through trading, seasonal herd migrations, and looting raids.

Horse-drawn war chariots seem to have been invented by Sintashta people around 2100 BCE, and quickly spread to the mining region of Bactria-Margiana (modern border of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan). Copper had been extracted intensively in the Urals, and the Proto-Indo-Iranians from Sintashta-Petrovka were exporting it in huge quantities to the Middle East. They appear to have been attracted by the natural resources of the Zeravshan valley for a Petrovka copper-mining colony was established in Tugai around 1900 BCE, and tin was extracted soon afterwards at Karnab and Mushiston. Tin was an especially valued resource in the late Bronze Age, when weapons were made of copper-tin alloy, stronger than the more primitive arsenical bronze. In the 1700's BCE, the Indo-Iranians expanded to the lower Amu Darya valley and settled in irrigation farming communities (Tazabagyab culture). By 1600 BCE, the old fortified towns of Margiana-Bactria were abandoned, submerged by the northern steppe migrants. The group of Central Asian cultures under Indo-Iranian influence is known as the Andronovo horizon, and lasted until 800 BCE.

The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE. The Medes, Parthians and Persians, all Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture, moved into the Iranian plateau from 800 BCE. Those that stayed in Central Asia are remembered by history as the Scythians, while the Yamna descendants who remained in the Pontic-Caspian steppe became known as the Sarmatians to the ancient Greeks and Romans.

The Indo-Iranian migrations have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent. The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, R1a ranges from 15 to 50% of the population, depending on the region, ethnic group and caste. R1a is generally stronger is the North-West of the subcontinent, and weakest in the Dravidian-speaking South (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh) and from Bengal eastward. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.

Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war. The first major settlement of Indo-Aryan women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common today."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

This marker originated from the iranic speaker Andronovo Culture:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

"The Andronovo culture is a collection of similar local Bronze Age cultures that flourished c. 2000–900 BC in western Siberia and the central Eurasian Steppe.[1] Some researchers have preferred to term it an archaeological complex or archaeological horizon.[2] The older Sintashta culture (2100–1800 BC), formerly included within the Andronovo culture, is now considered separately, but regarded as its predecessor, and accepted as part of the wider Andronovo horizon.

Most researchers associate the Andronovo horizon with early Indo-Iranian languages, though it may have overlapped the early Uralic-speaking area at its northern fringe.[3] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/indo-iranian-sintashta-uralic-migrations-1100x469.jpg

[Blondie]

Khazars and Gokturks were also Z93.

In TOTAL: 5 different historical Turkic peoples with R1a Z93 + Iron Age Scytho-Turanid Z93 steppe samples + predominant distribution of Z93 among modern Turkics. And not even 1 historical Indo-Iranian tribe with R1a.

BUT HEY WE ARE STILL INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

Even Attila, the Turk within, with 1000 Turkic relatives, was INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

nice logic, as always :thumb001:

Attila was hun not turk... Huns were a tribal confederation not homogenous population, there is no proof that huns were turkic or something, their language, origin is totaly unknown.

[Bosniensis]

R1a-z93 is iranic marker not turkic.



Interesting since it's universally accepted that Iranians are Sumerians, a branch of Sumerian people who went East.
Persians are from Iraq and Syria.

Persians built Walls toward Pontic Steppe along with Anatolians to defend against Steppe people.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I meant people out of whom Romans emerged... eventually.. maybe Etruscan like people

Etruscan civilization existed in 1000 B.C. that's before Iron Age or Early Iron Age.

Those people in Dalmatia might have been related to them .

Etruscans were non Indo-Europeans and that sample had quite a lot of steppe admixture so no. Your fantasy amazes.

[Bosniensis]

Etruscans were non Indo-Europeans and that sample had quite a lot of steppe admixture so no. Your fantasy amazes.

We have Etruscan Sample, it's basically West Med + East Med + Celtic Atlantic, it's I2a1a it's from 1300 B.C. if I remember from Brescia.

[Blondie]

Interesting since it's universally accepted that Iranians are Sumerians, a branch of Sumerian people who went East.
Persians are from Iraq and Syria.

Persians built Walls toward Pontic Steppe along with Anatolians to defend against Steppe people.

Sumerians were unknown ethnic group with unknown language. The most accepted theory is they were afro-asiatic and their language was similar to arabs, jews.

[Mingle]

R1a-Z93, Turanid steppe DNA.

Árpad dynasty of Hungary = R1a-Z93

Osman dynasty of Anatolian Turkey = R1a-Z93

Now this Turkic Bulgar = R1a-Z93

Truly an amazing time of science in the history of steppe peoples.

Turkic Bulgars in Bronze Age Europe?

[Mingle]

Interesting since it's universally accepted that Iranians are Sumerians, a branch of Sumerian people who went East.
Persians are from Iraq and Syria.

Persians built Walls toward Pontic Steppe along with Anatolians to defend against Steppe people.

Most Persians aren't R-Z93. They're mostly J2 (J-M172). And Persians aren't from Iraq/Syria.

[Bosniensis]

Sumerians were unknown ethnic group with unknown language. The most accepted theory is they were afro-asiatic and their language was similar to arabs, jews.

Well you would be surprised how much Arabs and Persians have documented Middle Eastern history.

The fact that Anglo-American world knows nothing about Sumerian people well that's understandable.. we need to ask Persians themselves.

[Blondie]

Khazars and Gokturks were also Z93.

In TOTAL: 5 different historical Turkic peoples with R1a Z93 + Iron Age Scytho-Turanid Z93 steppe samples + predominant distribution of Z93 among modern Turkics. And not even 1 historical Indo-Iranian tribe with R1a.

BUT HEY WE ARE STILL INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

Even Attila, the Turk within, with 1000 Turkic relatives, was INDO-EUROPEAN :picard2:

nice logic, as always :thumb001:

The turkic propagandist says the huns were oghur turks which is not true. The earliest oghur migration was in 450AD, the huns migrated to Europe in 350 AD before oghurs.

"The Oghurs were a group of Turkic-speaking nomads who moved west across the steppe from about 450 to 950 AD. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur_(tribe)

"The Huns were a nomadic people who lived in Central Asia, the Caucasus, and Eastern Europe, between the 4th and 6th century AD. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns

The asian hun (xiongnu) genetic, faces shows similarity to proto-mongols, asian scythians and yeniseian peoples.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17905712
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13173/centasiaj.56.2013.0041?seq=1#page_scan_tab_content s

"Sequencing of human remains from an elite Xiongnu cemetery in Duurling Nars (Northeast Mongolia) revealed a West Eurasian male with the Y-DNA haplogroup Haplogroup R1a, and mtDNA haplogroup Haplogroup U2e1. This haplogroup combination is typical of Eastern Europe. Also found were a female with mtDNA haplogroup D4, and a male with Y-DNA haplogroup C3 and mtDNA haplogroup D4, which are common haplogroups in Northeast Asia. There was no close kinship among the three specimens. Authors have speculated that these remains may reflect the racial diversity of the Xiongnu empire.[124]

A majority (89%) of Xiongnu mitochondrial sequences from the Egyin Gol Valley can be classified as belonging to Asian haplogroups, and nearly 11% belong to European mitochondrial haplogroups.[125]

Over the past decade, Chinese archaeologists have published several reviews regarding the results of excavations in Xinjiang. They imply the Xiongnu's supreme ruling class. Particularly interesting are the tombs in the cemetery at Heigouliang, Xinjiang (the Black Gouliang cemetery, also known as the summer palace of the Xiongnu king), east of the Barkol basin, near the city of Hami. By typing results of DNA samples during the excavation of one of the tombs, it was determined that of the 12 men: 6 Q1a* (not Q1a1-M120, not Q1a1b-M25, not Q1a2-M3), 4 Q1b-M378, 2 Q* (not Q1a, not Q1b: unable to determine subclades):[126]

In a paper (Lihongjie 2012), the author analyzed the Y-DNAs of the ancient male samples from the 2nd or 1st century BCE cemetery at Heigouliang in Xinjiang – which is also believed to be the site of a summer palace for Xiongnu kings – which is east of the Barkol basin and near the city of Hami. The Y-DNA of 12 men excavated from the site belonged to Q-MEH2 (Q1a) or Q-M378 (Q1b). The Q-M378 men among them were regarded as hosts of the tombs; half of the Q-MEH2 men appeared to be hosts and the other half as sacrificial victims."

R1a was iranic marker, C is mongol and Q is proto-altaic, the hunnic haplogroup Q belonged to mongol and turkic branch:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

Genetically the european huns were closest to early magyar elite who were a mix of east asians and germanic peoples:
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794/2/Neparaczki_Thesis_english.pdf

[Harkonnen]

You are the biggest loonie here.

[Mingle]

Khazars and Gokturks were also Z93.

They had Iranic origins.


The two main branches of the family, one descended from Bumin and the other from his brother Istämi, ruled over the eastern and western parts of the Göktürk confederation, respectively.


Researchers such as H.W. Haussig,[1] S.G. Klyashtorny,[2][3] A.N. Bernstamm,[4] C. V. Findley,[5] B.A. Muratov,[6] R.R. Suyunov,[7] D.G. Savinov,[8] S.P. Guschin,[6] Rona-Tas[9] and R.N. Frye[10] have pointed out that the origin of the Ashina is from the Iranian Saka or possibly Wusun. They have put forward this version of the following arguments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_tribe

[Blondie]

They had Iranic origins.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_tribe

Language and genetic are two different thing :)

[Harkonnen]

You confuse many people by using calculators based on modern people for ancient people. You can not model ancient people with components based on modern populations which partially descendant from them. He was not closest to Swedes . If anything he was closest to Lithuanians but Lithuanians and other Balto-Slavs have a lot of recent genetic drift which seems to make them more distant from ancient people even if they are actually closest to them.

Actually is totally opposite. Lithuanians tend to show close relations to wide arrange of samples because they have very homogenous Lithuanian sample in the dataset. It's onvious this guy is nowhere close to Balt. Very strange fellow all in all.

[Harkonnen]

He also appears extremely dissimilar to Finns.

[Pribislav]

Turkic Bulgars in Bronze Age Europe?

Hakan is Turkic propagandist. He carry non-Turkic y dna as vast majority of his nation.

R1a-Z93 is 2% or something among Anatolian Turks. :rotfl:

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Hakan is Turkic propagandist. He carry non-Turkic y dna as wast majority of his nation.

R1a-Z93 is 2% or something among Anatolian Turks. :rotfl:

That's turkicized Aryan marker, originally Indo-Iranic. Real proto Turks were Q.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Turks and Turanists are cancer.

[Mingle]

Hakan is Turkic propagandist. He carry non-Turkic y dna as wast majority of his nation.

R1a-Z93 is 2% or something among Anatolian Turks. :rotfl:

Lol, the reply was to the Hungarian user Turul Karom.

[Harkonnen]

Turks and Turanists are cancer.

Turks are your brothers you little shit :)

[Leto]

Hakan is Turkic propagandist. He carry non-Turkic y dna as wast majority of his nation.

R1a-Z93 is 2% or something among Anatolian Turks. :rotfl:
More than that, 2% is too low. But it's not very high either.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g-xRnnqxt2I/WxxPO90u5RI/AAAAAAAAAgI/Z_yW6Zmfzj8cM4c9YLTYIJCd9im2c8cggCLcBGAs/s1600/119turk.png

[Harkonnen]

It's certainly more than in these Hungarian loonies.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Turks are your brothers you little shit :)

By paternal lineage I am Germanic.

[Bosniensis]

Hakan is Turkic propagandist. He carry non-Turkic y dna as wast majority of his nation.

R1a-Z93 is 2% or something among Anatolian Turks. :rotfl:

Whole Turkish identity is a Great Propaganda.

When I was listening Erdogan speech in Sarajevo he said:

"Greetings to all Ottoman and Seljuk descendants"

By that he meant: Ottoman (Balkan+Anatolian converts) Seljuk (Those who came to Anatolia aka Real Turks)

he mentioned Seljuks second where he acknowledged they are smaller in number.

The only thing Seljuks got in Anatolia is Turkic style culture and language during Attaturk reforms, but Turks are Anatolian, Greek and Balkan people mostly (Byzantines)

[Leto]

Whole Turkish identity is a Great Propaganda.

When I was listening Erdogan speech in Sarajevo he said:

"Greetings to all Ottoman and Seljuk descendants"

By that he meant: Ottoman (Balkan+Anatolian converts) Seljuk (Those who came to Anatolia aka Real Turks)

he mentioned Seljuks second where he acknowledged they are smaller in number.

The only thing Seljuks got in Anatolia is Turkic style culture and language during Attaturk reforms, but Turks are Anatolian, Greek and Balkan people mostly (Byzantines)
Thanks to them there is the Bosniak identity now in the Balkans.

[Pribislav]

Lol, the reply was to the Hungarian user Turul Karom.

Mistake, reply should be on your post on Hakan's claim about Turkic origin of R1a-Z93.

[Pribislav]

Thanks to them there is the Bosniak identity now in the Balkans.

Ottomans + Austro-Hungary + communist regime of bloody dictator Jisip Broz Tito + Alija Izetbegović & Muhamed Filipović = Bosniak identity

[Pribislav]

More than that, 2% is too low. But it's not very high either.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g-xRnnqxt2I/WxxPO90u5RI/AAAAAAAAAgI/Z_yW6Zmfzj8cM4c9YLTYIJCd9im2c8cggCLcBGAs/s1600/119turk.png

What is Z93 among this 8.4% R1a?

I supppose most of Turkish R1a are Slavic branches from Balkn Janissaries and islamized Balkan imigrants to Turkey.

[Leto]

What is Z93 among this 8.4% R1a?

I supppose most of Turkish R1a are Slavic branches from Balkn Janissaries and islamized Balkan imigrants to Turkey.
I don't think most of it is Slavic. Probably 60-70% is not Slavic.

[Lemgrant]

Kit MW2273712

123997 SNPs used in this evaluation

Eurogenes K13

Population
North_Atlantic 40.20 Pct
Baltic 33.85 Pct
West_Med -
West_Asian 19.58 Pct
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 3.29 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 3.06 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

[Lemgrant]

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM

No shared DNA segments found

244130 SNPs used for this comparison.

[Proto-Shaman]

They had Iranic origins.
Pseudo-theories, based on old beliefs. I can disprove these pseudo-theories with 1 link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashide

Fuuuuck what happened to the "n"?

OMG these bastard Ashide Turks even had Kushan tamga :thumb001:

[Proto-Shaman]

Turkic Bulgars in Bronze Age Europe?
Iranid Bronze Age Turks: https://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Bulgar.html

[Proto-Shaman]

Most Persians aren't R-Z93. They're mostly J2 (J-M172). And Persians aren't from Iraq/Syria.
And most Western Oghuz speakers are J2, too. Strange that most Turkics either beling to J2/R1 or in minor cases to N (Yakuts) and Q (Turkmens).

[Proto-Shaman]

The turkic propagandist says the huns were oghur turks which is not true.
Whuut? who?

[Proto-Shaman]

Hakan is Turkic propagandist. He carry non-Turkic y dna

last time I checked my y-dna is mostly common among Oghuz groups of Anatolia and Iran :rotfl:

wait a minute, who was that guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20#Elite_Hun_grave ?

His mtDNA was East Asia, so don't even try it...

[Proto-Shaman]

By paternal lineage I am Germanic.
I is Kurdo-Slavic-Iranian.

[Proto-Shaman]

What is Z93 among this 8.4% R1a?

I supppose most of Turkish R1a are Slavic branches from Balkn Janissaries and islamized Balkan imigrants to Turkey.
Main Slavic cluster M458 is Turkic-Germanic in origin. R1a-Z282 clade in Balkan is low as fuck. Your Janissaries were mostly Turkmen colonists.

[Chelubey]

Pseudo-theories, based on old beliefs. I can disprove these pseudo-theories with 1 link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashide

Fuuuuck what happened to the "n"?

OMG these bastard Ashide Turks even had Kushan tamga :thumb001:
Yes, Ashina is probably just a Chinese translation of some Turkic verbal expression, since this name is absent in the ancient authentic Turkic onomasticon, it exists only among the descendants of the Turkic kagans living in China.
The legend of Ashina as an Iranian clan is a good example of biased European Turkology.

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes, Ashina is probably just a Chinese translation of some Turkic verbal expression, since this name is absent in the ancient authentic Turkic onomasticon, it exists only among the descendants of the Turkic kagans living in China.
The legend of Ashina as an Iranian clan is a good example of biased European Turkology.
Genetics finally brought the whole pseudo-Irano-Scythian theory to collapse: Proto-Scythian-aDNA-results-map-(NEW) (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?278958-Proto-Scythian-aDNA-results-map-(NEW))
https://i.imgur.com/xv5zxQm.png

If one would apply the pseudo-methods of the Scytho-Iranian proponents to the Chinese language in lets say 2000 years later, then probably some Bantu classification would come out.

[Aspirin]

Turk claiming Indo-European heritage, is the most laughlable shit what I saw on this forum.

[Proto-Shaman]

Turk claiming Indo-European heritage, is the most laughlable shit what I saw on this forum.
Seriously, how many socks do you have?

[Chelubey]

Turk claiming Indo-European heritage, is the most laughlable shit what I saw on this forum.

It is already obvious that the Turkic subclades of z-93 come from the Scythians. Turks are real "patrilineal Scythians". Turks do not claim, they are real descendants of the Scythians.

[xripkan]

According to Eurogenes blog this sample is autosomally identical to Srubnaya culture. It also has the typical marker R1a-Z93 of Srubna. Proto-Thracians is suggested that they migrated from pontic steppes (corded ware culture) during Bronze Age. Corde Ware culture had many interactions with Srubna. What I am assuming is that among the proto-Thracian people who left the steppes there were some individuals with origin from Srubna culture (r1a-z93).

[Arhat]

According to Eurogenes blog this sample is autosomally identical to Srubnaya culture. It also has the typical marker R1a-Z93 of Srubna. Proto-Thracians is suggested that they migrated from pontic steppes (corded ware culture) during Bronze Age. Corde Ware culture had many interactions with Srubna. What I am assuming is that among the proto-Thracian people who left the steppes there were some individuals with origin from Srubna culture (r1a-z93).

Yes that sounds likely. Also Greek and Paleo-Balkan languages show similarities to Indo-Iranian. Some linguistics even grouped them into one group("Graeco-Aryan") and assumed that they are both derived from Yamnaya/Catacomb. Now we not after genetic studies that this is unlikely and that Catacomb/Yamnaya culture was rather linked to R1b and Proto-Greeks/Proto-Balkanites but Indo-Iranians lived just north of them in the Corded Ware forest-steppe regions of East Europe and interacted a lot with them. After some point in history they started to replace R1b-related people in the steppe and during this timeframe they also mixed with the ancestors of Thracians and Greeks

[War Chef]

According to Eurogenes blog this sample is autosomally identical to Srubnaya culture. It also has the typical marker R1a-Z93 of Srubna. Proto-Thracians is suggested that they migrated from pontic steppes (corded ware culture) during Bronze Age. Corde Ware culture had many interactions with Srubna. What I am assuming is that among the proto-Thracian people who left the steppes there were some individuals with origin from Srubna culture (r1a-z93).

Yep, they call it Thraco-Cimmerian, please click link with map:


Nestor intended to suggest that there was a historical migration of Cimmerians into Eastern Europe from the area of the former Srubna culture, perhaps triggered by the Scythian expansion, at the beginning of the European Iron Age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

[xripkan]

Yep, they call it Thraco-Cimmerian, please click link with map:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian
Thraco-Cimmerians migrated in Thrace much later during Iron Age. This migration does not justify the presence of R-Z93 in this area on 1700 BC. What I am saying is that the ancestors of Thracians before arriving Balkans in Bronze Age were people from Corded Ware culture and to a lesser extent from Srubna cultutre. So Proto-Thracians had haplogroups from both cultures.

[Proto-Shaman]

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_Altaic 17.19
2 European_Early_Farmers 16.68
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 16.22
4 East_Siberian 13.16
5 South_Central_Asian 12.77
6 Tungus-Altaic 12.57
7 Arctic 6.88
8 Paleo_Siberian 2.53
9 Austronesian 2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saami ( ) 26.26
2 Hakas ( ) 27.19
3 Tatar-Siberian ( ) 29
4 Bashkir ( ) 29.68
5 Kazahs ( ) 29.97
6 Saami_Finland ( ) 31.12
7 Altaian ( ) 32.2
8 Udmurd ( ) 33.38
9 Uygur-Han ( ) 33.45
10 Uygur ( ) 33.66
11 Hazara ( ) 33.78
12 Kazakh ( ) 34.01
13 Mari ( ) 34.12
14 Kyrgyz_Bishkek ( ) 34.17
15 Selkup ( ) 34.71
16 Kyrgyz ( ) 35.21
17 Even ( ) 36.27
18 Icelandic ( ) 36.67
19 Tubalar ( ) 37.13
20 Turkmen_Afghan ( ) 37.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.8% Hakas ( ) + 27.2% Basque_French ( ) @ 14.26
2 69.9% Hakas ( ) + 30.1% Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS ( ) @ 14.28
3 72.6% Hakas ( ) + 27.4% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 14.39
4 68.7% Hakas ( ) + 31.3% French_South ( ) @ 15.59
5 68.4% Hakas ( ) + 31.6% Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) @ 16.33
6 68.4% Hakas ( ) + 31.6% Spanish_Aragon_IBS ( ) @ 16.33
7 68.8% Hakas ( ) + 31.2% Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) @ 16.7
8 61% Hakas ( ) + 39% Orcadian ( ) @ 16.93
9 69.2% Hakas ( ) + 30.8% Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) @ 17.09
10 61.4% Hakas ( ) + 38.6% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) @ 17.27
11 69.2% Hakas ( ) + 30.8% Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) @ 17.28
12 68.1% Hakas ( ) + 31.9% Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) @ 17.32
13 67.8% Hakas ( ) + 32.2% Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) @ 17.39
14 68% Hakas ( ) + 32% Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) @ 17.51
15 68.9% Hakas ( ) + 31.1% Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) @ 17.59
16 69.2% Hakas ( ) + 30.8% Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( ) @ 17.64
17 67.3% Hakas ( ) + 32.7% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 17.75
18 60.9% Hakas ( ) + 39.1% Icelandic ( ) @ 17.81
19 76.8% Hakas ( ) + 23.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 18.07
20 69.6% Hakas ( ) + 30.4% Spaniard ( ) @ 18.13

There are two other Cimmerians with R1b1a (mtdna H9a) and Q1a1 (mtdna C5c). Both have the same East Eurasian shift.

[xripkan]

Yes that sounds likely. Also Greek and Paleo-Balkan languages show similarities to Indo-Iranian. Some linguistics even grouped them into one group("Graeco-Aryan") and assumed that they are both derived from Yamnaya/Catacomb. Now we not after genetic studies that this is unlikely and that Catacomb/Yamnaya culture was rather linked to R1b and Proto-Greeks/Proto-Balkanites but Indo-Iranians lived just north of them in the Corded Ware forest-steppe regions of East Europe and interacted a lot with them. After some point in history they started to replace R1b-related people in the steppe and during this timeframe they also mixed with the ancestors of Thracians and Greeks

What I think it also worths to mention is that R1b-Z2103 which is the basic marker of Balkan Bronze Age IE migrants is also considered a minor marker of early Indo-Iranians. So it is quite possible that Balkan IE migrants carried some R-Z93 (basic marker of Indo-Iranians).

[xripkan]

double post

[Crimson Winds]

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_Altaic 17.19
2 European_Early_Farmers 16.68
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 16.22
4 East_Siberian 13.16
5 South_Central_Asian 12.77
6 Tungus-Altaic 12.57
7 Arctic 6.88
8 Paleo_Siberian 2.53
9 Austronesian 2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saami ( ) 26.26
2 Hakas ( ) 27.19
3 Tatar-Siberian ( ) 29
4 Bashkir ( ) 29.68
5 Kazahs ( ) 29.97
6 Saami_Finland ( ) 31.12
7 Altaian ( ) 32.2
8 Udmurd ( ) 33.38
9 Uygur-Han ( ) 33.45
10 Uygur ( ) 33.66
11 Hazara ( ) 33.78
12 Kazakh ( ) 34.01
13 Mari ( ) 34.12
14 Kyrgyz_Bishkek ( ) 34.17
15 Selkup ( ) 34.71
16 Kyrgyz ( ) 35.21
17 Even ( ) 36.27
18 Icelandic ( ) 36.67
19 Tubalar ( ) 37.13
20 Turkmen_Afghan ( ) 37.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.8% Hakas ( ) + 27.2% Basque_French ( ) @ 14.26
2 69.9% Hakas ( ) + 30.1% Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS ( ) @ 14.28
3 72.6% Hakas ( ) + 27.4% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 14.39
4 68.7% Hakas ( ) + 31.3% French_South ( ) @ 15.59
5 68.4% Hakas ( ) + 31.6% Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) @ 16.33
6 68.4% Hakas ( ) + 31.6% Spanish_Aragon_IBS ( ) @ 16.33
7 68.8% Hakas ( ) + 31.2% Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) @ 16.7
8 61% Hakas ( ) + 39% Orcadian ( ) @ 16.93
9 69.2% Hakas ( ) + 30.8% Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) @ 17.09
10 61.4% Hakas ( ) + 38.6% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) @ 17.27
11 69.2% Hakas ( ) + 30.8% Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) @ 17.28
12 68.1% Hakas ( ) + 31.9% Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) @ 17.32
13 67.8% Hakas ( ) + 32.2% Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) @ 17.39
14 68% Hakas ( ) + 32% Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) @ 17.51
15 68.9% Hakas ( ) + 31.1% Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) @ 17.59
16 69.2% Hakas ( ) + 30.8% Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( ) @ 17.64
17 67.3% Hakas ( ) + 32.7% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 17.75
18 60.9% Hakas ( ) + 39.1% Icelandic ( ) @ 17.81
19 76.8% Hakas ( ) + 23.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 18.07
20 69.6% Hakas ( ) + 30.4% Spaniard ( ) @ 18.13

There are two other Cimmerians with R1b1a (mtdna H9a) and Q1a1 (mtdna C5c). Both have the same East Eurasian shift.

Pure Indo Europeans matches with Hakas, that's a fact. Tungus- Altaic is %100 IE mix. :rolleyes:

[Proto-Shaman]

R1b-Z2103 patrilineal Hindu-Iranians and sheeet
https://i.imgur.com/GHjaav9.png

[Arhat]

What I think it also worths to mention is that R1b-Z2103 which is the basic marker of Balkan Bronze Age IE migrants is also considered a minor marker of early Indo-Iranians. So it is quite possible that Balkan IE migrants carried some R-Z93 (basic marker of Indo-Iranians).

That is also true. R1b was found in Sintashta too as far as i remember .Indo-Iranians mixed with R1b tribes in the steppe region and absorbed them. So some of the R1b in Central Asia and surrounding regions was brought by Indo-Iranians

[Arhat]

Pure Indo Europeans matches with Hakas, that's a fact. Tungus- Altaic is %100 IE mix. :rolleyes:

The distance is 27 lol. The same distance a North European has probably to an Arab. They are not similar at all

[Proto-Shaman]

Pure Indo Europeans matches with Hakas, that's a fact. Tungus- Altaic is %100 IE mix. :rolleyes:
True PROTO-Indo-European matches with Saami, another fat fact :lightbul:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 70.65
2 Ancestral_Altaic 17.85
3 Amerindian 2.98
4 European_Early_Farmers 1.99
5 Arctic 1.82
6 Subsaharian 0.86
7 South_Central_Asian 0.82
8 Australoid 0.63
9 Archaic_Human 0.55
10 East_Siberian 0.49
11 African_Pygmy 0.47
12 Archaic_African 0.47
13 South_Indian 0.42

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saami ( ) 21.04
2 Saami_Finland ( ) 25.94
3 Udmurd ( ) 29.23
4 Bashkir ( ) 29.57
5 Mari ( ) 31.34
6 Tatar-Siberian ( ) 31.87
7 Saami_Kola ( ) 32.1
8 Finn ( ) 33.44
9 Karelian ( ) 33.52
10 Komi ( ) 34.21
11 Chuvash ( ) 34.28
12 Hakas ( ) 34.37
13 Finn_East ( ) 34.86
14 Uygur-Han ( ) 34.93
15 Finnish-East ( ) 35.17
16 Finnish_FIN ( ) 35.76
17 Chuvashs ( ) 35.89
18 Kazahs ( ) 35.99
19 Vepsa ( ) 36.32
20 Aleut ( ) 36.4

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.8% Saami ( ) + 14.2% Athabask ( ) @ 18.88
2 81.4% Saami ( ) + 18.6% Ojibwa ( ) @ 18.94
3 81.6% Saami ( ) + 18.4% Haida ( ) @ 19.04
4 80.6% Saami ( ) + 19.4% Ayta_AE ( ) @ 19.11
5 83.7% Saami ( ) + 16.3% Cree ( ) @ 19.19
6 88.3% Saami ( ) + 11.7% Navajo ( ) @ 19.22
7 84.7% Saami ( ) + 15.3% Hema ( ) @ 19.24
8 85% Saami ( ) + 15% Kikuyu ( ) @ 19.26
9 84.7% Saami ( ) + 15.3% Sandawe ( ) @ 19.29
10 85.6% Saami ( ) + 14.4% Khwe ( ) @ 19.33
11 85.3% Saami ( ) + 14.7% Masai_Ayodo ( ) @ 19.35
12 84.2% Saami ( ) + 15.8% Lamaholt ( ) @ 19.36
13 84.5% Saami ( ) + 15.5% Lembata ( ) @ 19.37
14 84.1% Saami ( ) + 15.9% Manggarai ( ) @ 19.38
15 86.6% Saami ( ) + 13.4% Alur ( ) @ 19.4
16 83.5% Saami ( ) + 16.5% Ati ( ) @ 19.41
17 86.3% Saami ( ) + 13.7% Shua ( ) @ 19.43
18 89.6% Saami ( ) + 10.4% Apache ( ) @ 19.44
19 82.4% Saami ( ) + 17.6% Mamanawa ( ) @ 19.45
20 87.5% Saami ( ) + 12.5% Cochimi ( ) @ 19.46

[Arhat]

True PROTO-Indo-European matches with Saami, another fat fact :lightbul:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 70.65
2 Ancestral_Altaic 17.85
3 Amerindian 2.98
4 European_Early_Farmers 1.99
5 Arctic 1.82
6 Subsaharian 0.86
7 South_Central_Asian 0.82
8 Australoid 0.63
9 Archaic_Human 0.55
10 East_Siberian 0.49
11 African_Pygmy 0.47
12 Archaic_African 0.47
13 South_Indian 0.42

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saami ( ) 21.04
2 Saami_Finland ( ) 25.94
3 Udmurd ( ) 29.23
4 Bashkir ( ) 29.57
5 Mari ( ) 31.34
6 Tatar-Siberian ( ) 31.87
7 Saami_Kola ( ) 32.1
8 Finn ( ) 33.44
9 Karelian ( ) 33.52
10 Komi ( ) 34.21
11 Chuvash ( ) 34.28
12 Hakas ( ) 34.37
13 Finn_East ( ) 34.86
14 Uygur-Han ( ) 34.93
15 Finnish-East ( ) 35.17
16 Finnish_FIN ( ) 35.76
17 Chuvashs ( ) 35.89
18 Kazahs ( ) 35.99
19 Vepsa ( ) 36.32
20 Aleut ( ) 36.4

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.8% Saami ( ) + 14.2% Athabask ( ) @ 18.88
2 81.4% Saami ( ) + 18.6% Ojibwa ( ) @ 18.94
3 81.6% Saami ( ) + 18.4% Haida ( ) @ 19.04
4 80.6% Saami ( ) + 19.4% Ayta_AE ( ) @ 19.11
5 83.7% Saami ( ) + 16.3% Cree ( ) @ 19.19
6 88.3% Saami ( ) + 11.7% Navajo ( ) @ 19.22
7 84.7% Saami ( ) + 15.3% Hema ( ) @ 19.24
8 85% Saami ( ) + 15% Kikuyu ( ) @ 19.26
9 84.7% Saami ( ) + 15.3% Sandawe ( ) @ 19.29
10 85.6% Saami ( ) + 14.4% Khwe ( ) @ 19.33
11 85.3% Saami ( ) + 14.7% Masai_Ayodo ( ) @ 19.35
12 84.2% Saami ( ) + 15.8% Lamaholt ( ) @ 19.36
13 84.5% Saami ( ) + 15.5% Lembata ( ) @ 19.37
14 84.1% Saami ( ) + 15.9% Manggarai ( ) @ 19.38
15 86.6% Saami ( ) + 13.4% Alur ( ) @ 19.4
16 83.5% Saami ( ) + 16.5% Ati ( ) @ 19.41
17 86.3% Saami ( ) + 13.7% Shua ( ) @ 19.43
18 89.6% Saami ( ) + 10.4% Apache ( ) @ 19.44
19 82.4% Saami ( ) + 17.6% Mamanawa ( ) @ 19.45
20 87.5% Saami ( ) + 12.5% Cochimi ( ) @ 19.46

Lol the distances are huge and it is obvious that the calculator does not work for this cimmerian because it is based on modern genetic drift

[Proto-Shaman]

Lol the distances are huge and it is obvious that the calculator does not work for this cimmerian because it is based on modern genetic drift
Yep, ancient Indo-European genetic drift... with huge distances..

# Using 1 population approximation:
1 Karelia_HG @ 6.032225
2 Scandinavian_MHG @ 9.623356
3 Scandinavian_NH @ 20.703035
4 Samara_Eneolithic @ 25.043360
5 Siberian_Ice_Age @ 25.304670
6 Brillenhohle_Magdalenian @ 25.899303
7 ElMiron_Magdalenian @ 26.141340
8 GoyetQ_2_Magdalenian @ 26.761995
9 Swedish_HG @ 27.058998
10 Baltic_LBA @ 27.462460
11 Rigney1_Magdalenian @ 27.865808
12 Ofnet_Mesolithic @ 27.884247
13 Burkhardtshohle_Magdalenian @ 28.165215
14 HohleFels49_Magdalenian @ 29.042370
15 Samara_HG @ 29.274351
16 Bockstein_Mesolithic @ 29.515978
17 Iboussieres39 @ 29.825098
18 Rochedane_Epipaleolithic @ 29.924730
19 Nordic_BA @ 29.974075
20 Luxembourg_Mesolithic @ 30.315481

# Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Rochedane_Epipaleolithic +50% Samara_HG @ 2.312710

# Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Rochedane_Epipaleolithic +25% Samara_HG +25% Samara_HG @ 2.312710

The same distance Proto-Ethiopians had probably to modern Tajiks?

[Proto-Shaman]

Pure patrilineal IE marker and pure IE matches with Amerindians
https://i.imgur.com/L1J0BQn.jpg

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_Altaic 30.88
2 European_Hunters_Gatherers 23.27
3 Amerindian 17.87
4 South_Central_Asian 10.55
5 East_Siberian 6.42
6 Arctic 6.3
7 Paleo_Siberian 4.37
8 African_Pygmy 0.3
9 Caucasian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Saami ( ) 28
2 Udmurd ( ) 32.3
3 Saami_Finland ( ) 33.26
4 Bashkir ( ) 34.29
5 Mari ( ) 35.77
6 Selkup ( ) 36.14
7 Mansi ( ) 36.22
8 Tatar-Siberian ( ) 36.3
9 Hakas ( ) 36.7
10 Ojibwa ( ) 38.44
11 Chuvash ( ) 39.58
12 Tubalar ( ) 39.79
13 Haida ( ) 39.87
14 Saami_Kola ( ) 39.98
15 Tsimsian ( ) 40.08
16 Komi ( ) 40.15
17 Uygur-Han ( ) 40.63
18 Tlingit ( ) 40.99
19 Chuvashs ( ) 41.06
20 Cree ( ) 41.58

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.1% Mansi ( ) + 47.9% Ojibwa ( ) @ 19.57
2 54.7% Mansi ( ) + 45.3% Cree ( ) @ 20.02
3 53.3% Mansi ( ) + 46.7% Haida ( ) @ 20.12
4 53.7% Ojibwa ( ) + 46.3% Khant ( ) @ 20.19
5 52.4% Haida ( ) + 47.6% Khant ( ) @ 20.56
6 56.9% Mansi ( ) + 43.1% Algonquin ( ) @ 20.79
7 51.1% Cree ( ) + 48.9% Khant ( ) @ 20.91
8 75% Saami ( ) + 25% Navajo ( ) @ 21.15
9 72.1% Saami ( ) + 27.9% Athabask ( ) @ 21.27
10 61.6% Mansi ( ) + 38.4% Athabask ( ) @ 21.29
11 76.7% Saami ( ) + 23.3% Apache ( ) @ 21.34
12 51.1% Khant ( ) + 48.9% Algonquin ( ) @ 21.64
13 78.9% Saami ( ) + 21.1% Luiseno ( ) @ 21.79
14 64.3% Saami ( ) + 35.7% Ojibwa ( ) @ 21.81
15 80.9% Saami ( ) + 19.1% Totonac ( ) @ 21.85
16 80.9% Saami ( ) + 19.1% Pima ( ) @ 21.86
17 66.9% Saami ( ) + 33.1% Cree ( ) @ 21.87
18 81.5% Saami ( ) + 18.5% Huichol ( ) @ 21.87
19 81.6% Saami ( ) + 18.4% Quechua_Bolivia ( ) @ 21.89
20 81.2% Saami ( ) + 18.8% Zapotec ( ) @ 21.89

[Crimson Winds]

Lol the distances are huge and it is obvious that the calculator does not work for this cimmerian because it is based on modern genetic drift

This sample was over %30 percent Mongoloid and only Uralics and Turkics are in his oracle. Are you blind or worse ?

[Proto-Shaman]

This sample was over %30 percent Mongoloid and only Uralics and Turkics are in his oracle. Are you blind or worse ?
These so called "Uralics" and "Turkics" are just assimilated Indo-Iranians. Look at Mordvin and Mari ethnonym, it's means "man" in all Indo-Iranians dialects, this is proof that Uralics and Turkics are just a bunch of assimilated folks.

[Arhat]

This sample was over %30 percent Mongoloid and only Uralics and Turkics are in his oracle. Are you blind or worse ?

He is not related to Uralics or Turkics and got his Siberian admixture from other Siberians. Turks and Uralics were not the only mongolid people there. Also this cimmerian was already mixed and very different from Proto-Indo-Europeans like Corded Ware or Yamnaya

[Proto-Shaman]

He is not related to Uralics or Turkics and got his Siberian admixture from other Siberians. Turks and Uralics were not the only mongolid people there.
So, IE was mongoloid, too? Welcome to the club bro! Even though I am L1b.

[Arhat]

So, IE was mongoloid, too? Welcome to the club bro! Even though I am L1b.

Shut the fuck up gypsy. Why you are not already banned? Talk fantasy theories about your gypsy ancestors as much as you want

[Proto-Shaman]

Also this cimmerian was already mixed and very different from Proto-Indo-Europeans like Corded Ware or Yamnaya
Whuuut? which Corded Ware do you mean?
https://i.imgur.com/ebEvVvr.jpg

Afanasievo is older than Yamnaya btw.

[Leto]

Shut the fuck up gypsy. Why you are not already banned? Talk fantasy theories about your gypsy ancestors as much as you want
Yes, the guy needs to be banned at least for a week or two. I'm fucking tired of him. This forum has become so fucked up, they literally don't care about what kind of people are here.

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes, the guy needs to be banned at least for a week or two. I'm fucking tired of him. This forum has become so fucked up, they literature don't care about what kind of people are here.
I have 2 years more TA experience than you both. If there is somebody who is going to be banned than it's you.

https://i.imgur.com/kR4e49P.png

[Arhat]

Yes, the guy needs to be banned at least for a week or two. I'm fucking tired of him. This forum has become so fucked up, they literature don't care about what kind of people are here.

He is not a troll. I would say he is mentally ill

[Leto]

I have 2 years more TA experience than you both. If there is somebody who is going to be banned than it's you.

https://i.imgur.com/kR4e49P.png
Turks ain't European, this isn't a Turkic forum. Russia may be Eurasian too but thank God I and my family look fully white. So get the hell out, son!

[Proto-Shaman]

Turks ain't European, this isn't a Turkic forum. Russia may be Eurasian too but thank God I and my family look fully white. So get the hell out, son!
The Apricity admits Haplogroup R was Mongoloid! (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281328-The-Apricity-admits-Haplogroup-R-was-Mongoloid!)

'son'

[North Sea]

Looks like I match most of these samples once I add 50 snp and 1 cm

Largest segment = 4.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 308.9 cM (8.622 Pct)

208 shared segments found for this comparison.

281825 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.213 Pct SNPs are full identical

[xripkan]

Looks like I match most of these samples once I add 50 snp and 1 cm

Largest segment = 4.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 308.9 cM (8.622 Pct)

208 shared segments found for this comparison.

281825 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.213 Pct SNPs are full identical

For valid results you have to leave it to normal thresold snps 200-400 otherwise you will have common segments with everyone.

[North Sea]

For valid results you have to leave it to normal thresold snps 200-400 otherwise you will have common segments with everyone.

Nobody is going to match these samples like that anyway . except for a few so it isn't valid because they are ancient samples. they can only be very distantly related.

[xripkan]

Nobody is going to match these samples like that anyway . except for a few so it isn't valid because they are ancient samples. they can only be very distantly related.

Of course you can do it for fun if you want. However if you want to check a possible ancestry using 50 snps is not valid. I think two members had common segment. I had as well on 200-400. I find it even more interesting because he was Z93 like me!

[Pubiczar]

https://i.postimg.cc/L8VxDLc8/MW2273712-I2163-Bronze-Age-Bulgaria.png (https://postimages.org/)

I match both Bulgarians.
I am a Bulgarian indeed...

[North Sea]

Of course you can do it for fun if you want. However if you want to check a possible ancestry using 50 snps is not valid. I think two members had common segment. I had as well on 200-400!

How is it not valid ? youre not going to be close to an ancient sample anyway. 2 common segments is nothing , especially not when those 2 shared segments are under 10. and the other cM is low.

if you also put your results to 50 snp and 1 cm you will get results and you can compare to us, you are probanly closer but still not close related ... nobody is closely related to ancient samples which is why even longest segments are under 10 anyway.

[xripkan]

How is it not valid ? youre not going to be close to an ancient sample anyway. 2 common segments is nothing , especially not when those 2 shared segments are under 10. and the other cM is low.

if you also put your results to 50 snp and 1 cm you will get results and you can compare to us, you are probanly closer but still not close related ... nobody is closely related to ancient samples which is why even longest segments are under 10 anyway.

I just tell you that on 50 snps I have common segments with early medieval anlo-saxons... This sample is very old so I don't know if it is possible to find a big common segment. A common segment though on 200-400 for such an old kit shows a possible ancestry or a common ancestor not far from the age this person lived.

[Dick]

I just tell you that on 50 snps I have common segments with early medieval anlo-saxons... This sample is very old so I don't know if it is possible to find a big common segment. A common segment though on 200-400 for such an old kit shows a possible ancestry or a common ancestor not far from the age this person lived.

What about 100 SNPS - 5 CM?

Largest segment = 5.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 5.4 cM (0.150 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.7

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

297562 SNPs used for this comparison.

57.210 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Bosniensis]

This Belgorod sample R1a tells us how mixing happened on Balkans.

Now Imagine R1a guy like this one mixing with I2 you get modern Western Balkan people.

It would be amazing if we could compare G25 of this guy and G25 of Dalmatian sample to see how it FIT's with modern Balkan people.

[North Sea]

I just tell you that on 50 snps I have common segments with early medieval anlo-saxons... This sample is very old so I don't know if it is possible to find a big common segment. A common segment though on 200-400 for such an old kit shows a possible ancestry or a common ancestor not far from the age this person lived.

No, it really doesn't.

Everybody probably has common ancestors with a lot of these samples. It isn't going to show on default for most people and it barely shows for you.

On default I don't even match that J2b2 from Dalmatia that has the same haplogroup as me nor the Vucedol that is not too different autosomally. It is like this for most people with pretty much any ancient sample.

[MagnusDark]

I just tell you that on 50 snps I have common segments with early medieval anlo-saxons... This sample is very old so I don't know if it is possible to find a big common segment. A common segment though on 200-400 for such an old kit shows a possible ancestry or a common ancestor not far from the age this person lived.

I am afraid you’re wrong. Almost no one matches ancient samples on that level. This is why the threshold is lowered to revealed distant shared ancestry. Higher thresholds can’t pissibly produce high hits. It will merely give 1-2cm on 1-5 SNPs. I haven’t seen anyone get high matches for ancient samples. Recombination events simply do not allow for that. And it’s all random. Whatever SNPs you had on your ancestry may have not been inherited.

For example. I didn’t match autosomal with someone who is paternally descended from a common ancestor. I match 0 cm with someone who is part of my founder clade. Does this now mean we don’t share a common forefather because of random recombination effects that occurs every generation? How many generations you think have passed?

I share no CM with some ancient R1a samples even at low thresholds. So no, low threshold doesn’t always produce any ancestral relation. And yes low thresholds do reveal links. You have some Anglo Saxon SNPs because Goths cut through the Byzantine world. No ones pure. We’re all a mixed bag buddy.

[xripkan]

No, it really doesn't.

Everybody probably has common ancestors with a lot of these samples. It isn't going to show on default for most people and it barely shows for you.

On default I don't even match that J2b2 from Dalmatia that has the same haplogroup as me nor the Vucedol that is not too different autosomally. It is like this for most people with pretty much any ancient sample.


I am afraid you’re wrong. Almost no one matches ancient samples on that level. This is why the threshold is lowered to revealed distant shared ancestry. Higher thresholds can’t pissibly produce high hits. It will merely give 1-2cm on 1-5 SNPs. I haven’t seen anyone get high matches for ancient samples. Recombination events simply do not allow for that. And it’s all random. Whatever SNPs you had on your ancestry may have not been inherited.

For example. I didn’t match autosomal with someone who is paternally descended from a common ancestor. I match 0 cm with someone who is part of my founder clade. Does this now mean we don’t share a common forefather because of random recombination effects that occurs every generation? How many generations you think have passed?

I share no CM with some ancient R1a samples even at low thresholds. So no, low threshold doesn’t always produce any ancestral relation. And yes low thresholds do reveal links. You have some Anglo Saxon SNPs because Goths cut through the Byzantine world. No ones pure. We’re all a mixed bag buddy.

I did not say that no common segments mean no ancestry. I said that common segments on 200-400 gives valid results for possible ancestry or recent common ancestor. About the anglo-saxons they came from north germany and denmarkvwhile the goths after balkans went to italy and spain. If I really have common segments with them it goes back to a common proto-Indoeuropean ancestor. And this is what I mean 50 snps and 1 cm gives too broad results and all Europeans will share common segments among us with these filters.

[xripkan]

What about 100 SNPS - 5 CM?

Largest segment = 5.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 5.4 cM (0.150 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.7

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

297562 SNPs used for this comparison.

57.210 Pct SNPs are full identical

How did you find MRCA?

[MagnusDark]

I did not say that no common segments mean no ancestry. I said that common segments on 200-400 gives valid results for possible ancestry or recent common ancestor. About the anglo-saxons they came from north germany and denmarkvwhile the goths after balkans went to italy and spain. If I really have common segments with them it goes back to a common proto-Indoeuropean ancestor. And this is what I mean 50 snps and 1 cm gives too broad results and all Europeans will share common segments among us with these filters.

I don’t think you understood anything I just said but ok. You’re making a lot of things up. Lol. Read into generational recombination. It’s a random process. Genetics doesn’t work the way you assume.

[North Sea]

I did not say that no common segments mean no ancestry. I said that common segments on 200-400 gives valid results for possible ancestry or recent common ancestor. About the anglo-saxons they came from north germany and denmarkvwhile the goths after balkans went to italy and spain. If I really have common segments with them it goes back to a common proto-Indoeuropean ancestor. And this is what I mean 50 snps and 1 cm gives too broad results and all Europeans will share common segments among us.

No it doesnt mean you have recent common ancestor but whatever .... these samples lived like thousands of years ago. Sharing a recent common ancestor would be absolutely impossible. Most people I have seen who match on default only get 1 or 2 segments on defuault and these segments are below 10 and cM is low. Its like nothing. It literally means you are not recently related which makes a lot of sense, could mean you have some very distant ancestry but so does everyone I am pretty sure.




Any segment below 10 is really low .... if you get a lot of small segments below 10 and high cm it could mean you are distantly related. This usually only shows on 50 snp.


Amyway, I don't think I have Thracian ancestry nor do I mean to ruin your fun. Enjoy.

[Dick]

How did you find MRCA?

at the bottom. Probably bullshit though

https://i.imgur.com/5PA17GN.png

[xripkan]

Del

[xripkan]

No it doesnt mean you have recent common ancestor but whatever .... these samples lived like thousands of years ago. Sharing a recent common ancestor would be absolutely impossible. Most people I have seen who match on default only get 1 or 2 segments on defuault and these segments are below 10 and cM is low. Its like nothing. It literally means you are not recently related which makes a lot of sense, could mean you have some very distant ancestry but so does everyone I am pretty sure.




Any segment below 10 is really low .... if you get a lot of small segments below 10 and high cm it could mean you are distantly related. This usually only shows on 50 snp.


Amyway, I don't think I have Thracian ancestry nor do I mean to ruin your fun. Enjoy.

I was meaning recent common ancestor for him of course. I get low cm segments for this on 200-400 while I need a filter of 50 to get low common segments for others. I suppose it indicates a closer relationship.

[xripkan]

I don’t think you understood anything I just said but ok. You’re making a lot of things up. Lol. Read into generational recombination. It’s a random process. Genetics doesn’t work the way you assume.

I have also done the comparisons you mentioned above with similar results. This is why I said that no common segments found do not mean necessarily no possible ancestry. I have at my 23andme matches different percentages of common shared dna between two matches who are brothers. I do not expect to share common segments with all my ancestors but if I find common segment with an ancient kit it is possible to be my ancestor and as far as I know 200-400 filter is the standard for such a comparison. I hope now you understand what I mean.

[Moje ime]

at the bottom. Probably bullshit though



I don't have MRCA result but I get this match on default SNP.

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.

Largest segment = 1.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 1.5 cM (0.042 Pct)

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

273732 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.214 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Rizza]

Another Thracian R-Z93 found apparently:



I20186 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA Brown Brown Pale R-Z93



From Andreevo

[Rizza]

I was meaning recent common ancestor for him of course. I get low cm segments for this on 200-400 while I need a filter of 50 to get low common segments for others. I suppose it indicates a closer relationship.

I actually agree and R-Z93 really seems to of been some kind of Thracian marker