New Iberian paper with Celtiberian samples out!

[Token]

Very interesting paper with Celtiberian, Visigothic, Iberian and Tartessian genomes. I'm going to read it carefully and post a summary soon.

We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians, of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high-resolution time transect of the Iberian Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern and southeastern hunter-gatherers before the spread of farming. We reveal sporadic contacts between Iberia and North Africa by ~2500 BCE and, by ~2000 BCE, the replacement of 40% of Iberia’s ancestry and nearly 100% of its Y-chromosomes by people with Steppe ancestry. We show that, in the Iron Age, Steppe ancestry had spread not only into Indo-European–speaking regions but also into non-Indo-European–speaking ones, and we reveal that present-day Basques are best described as a typical Iron Age population without the admixture events that later affected the rest of Iberia. Additionally, we document how, beginning at least in the Roman period, the ancestry of the peninsula was transformed by gene flow from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean.
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf

[Bellbeaking]

Cool so I gather that first wave 40% replacement 100% Y-DNA replacement may not have changed the language anywhere, but it was later celtic waves that did!

[Token]

Cool so I gather that first wave 40% replacement 100% Y-DNA replacement may not have changed the language anywhere, but it was later celtic waves that did!

Yeah, like i've been saying over and over, Urnfield was the culture that spread Celtic languages to Western Europe.

28 to 43% in three individuals at
La Hoya in the north where Indo-European
Celtiberian languages were likely spoken (fig. S6
and tables S11 and S12). This trend documents
gene flow into Iberia during the Late Bronze
Age or Early Iron Age, possibly associated with
the introduction of the Urnfield tradition (18).

[Not a Cop]

It's a bit late here to read, but is it the whole articale? Seems to be a bit small.

[FilhoV]

The Iron Age kit I posted from Southern Portugal was essentially a Mediterranean shifter Basque

[Token]

It's a bit late here to read, but is it the whole articale? Seems to be a bit small.
Yeah, very objective paper. Olalde covered basically the entire genetic history of Iberia with 4 pages.

[Bellbeaking]

https://i.4cdn.org/his/1552610245082.jpg

i was wrong, the basques did receive the second wave of steppe ancestry, somehow they got beaker'd celt'd but kept their language hmmm

[Peterski]

Any info about Y-DNA haplogroups associated with Celtiberians, Visigoths, etc.?

[Peterski]

Some excerpts from Supplementary Info:

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/03/13/363.6432.1230.DC1/aav4040_Olalde_SM.pdf

"Two Bronze Age males, I6470 and I3997, had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z195
(R1b1a1a2a1a2a1), with I6470 being negative and I3997 positive. Eleven Bronze Age
males had DNA sequences overlapping R1b-Z225 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a5), with only
VAD001 being positive for the mutation (one Iron Age male, I3320, is also positive for
this mutation). We thus detect three Bronze Age males who belonged to DF27 (154, 155),
confirming its presence in Bronze Age Iberia. The other Iberian Bronze Age males could
belong to DF27 as well, but the extremely low recovery rate of this SNP in our dataset
prevented us to study its true distribution. All the Iberian Bronze Age males with
overlapping sequences at R1b-L21 were negative for this mutation. Therefore, we can
rule out Britain as a plausible proximate origin since contemporaneous British males are
derived for the L21 subtype."

"Finding a Bell Beaker-related group as a plausible source for the introduction of steppe
ancestry into Iberia is consistent with the fact that some of the individuals in the Iberia_CA_Stp
group were excavated in BellBeaker associated contexts (9). Models with Iberia_CA and other Bell
Beaker groups such as France_Beaker (P-value=7.31E-06), Netherlands_Beaker
(P-value=1.03E-03) and England_Beaker (P-value=4.86E-02) failed, probably because they
have slightly higher proportions of steppe ancestry than the true source population. We can also discard
Beaker complex individuals from the island of Britain as a plausible directly source for
the steppe ancestry in Iberia because all the analyzed males with enough resolution in this
group are derived for R1b-L21, a SNP for which Iberian males are ancestral."

[Damião de Góis]

Which exactly are the Celtiberian samples? I only see Iron Age samples from non-indo european areas (mediterranean coast):

http://oi65.tinypic.com/29e6fq9.jpg

I would except Celtiberian samples to be from the celtiberian region:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

[Morena]

Which exactly are the Celtiberian samples? I only see Iron Age samples from non-indo european areas (mediterranean coast):

http://oi65.tinypic.com/29e6fq9.jpg

I would except Celtiberian samples to be from the celtiberian region:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

Perhaps he meant Celtic Iberians? It's easy for people to conflate the two. All Celtiberians were Celt, not all Celtic Iberians were Celitiberians. XD

As for OP:

Additionally, we document how, beginning at least in the Roman period, the ancestry of the peninsula was transformed by gene flow from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean
I'm glad that science is finally getting past the Moors.
I will check up on this later. Hopefully Grace O'Mally and Bras de Viriato will have something to add.

[Damião de Góis]

Perhaps he meant Celtic Iberians? It's easy for people to conflate the two. All Celtiberians were Celt, not all Celtic Iberians were Celitiberians. XD


Even so where are they in the first map?

[Token]

Which exactly are the Celtiberian samples? I only see Iron Age samples from non-indo european areas (mediterranean coast):
I would except Celtiberian samples to be from the celtiberian region:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

Read the supplementary files, the archeological context is described there. This Wikipedia map is a very simplified approximation to the actual situation in Iron Age Iberia.

[Token]

I'm glad that science is finally getting past the Moors.
I will check up on this later. Hopefully Grace O'Mally and Bras de Viriato will have something to add.

Moors did contributed to the Iberian genepool and this paper confirms it once for all.

[Damião de Góis]

Read the supplementary files, the archeological context is described there. This Wikipedia map is a very simplified approximation to the actual situation in Iron Age Iberia.

The map has a source, and it's not "Wikipedia". In any case, care to answer my question since you seem to know the answer? Which ones are the celtiberian samples?

[Token]

The map has a source, and it's not "Wikipedia". In any case, care to answer my question since you seem to know the answer? Which ones are the celtiberian samples?

Nope, this map was made by Wikipedia loosely based on the map of a single random archeologist. It is not incorrect, but not totally correct either.

The answer is right here in this thread, i even posted the relevant excerpt on a separate post. Firstly you need to read the thread, then you start asking questions.

[Lucas]

Yeah! At least Visigoths. I'm starting to convert:) Soon on Gedmatch.

[Damião de Góis]

Nope, this map was made by Wikipedia loosely based on the map of a single random archeologist. It is not incorrect, but not totally correct either.

The answer is right here in this thread, i even posted the relevant excerpt on a separate post. Firstly you need to read the thread, then you start asking questions.

Is that so, brazuca know-it-all? So what is not "totally correct" about the map? :rolleyes:
Maybe you should email the author with the correct version...

[Morena]

Moors did contributed to the Iberian genepool and this paper confirms it once for all.

That's not under dispute. What we have disagreed with is when the event occurred. It makes no sense that the "moors" and the invasions (when we mean the moors, we are talking about muslim north african invaders) were the only source of it. The reason for it is that it made no sense when matched up with where the highest concentration of north african blood is located, as well as historical records. We kicked out almost all of them, and most of the North African blood is in areas with the least amount of Moorish conquest and control. How is that Portugal was only under Moorish occupation for ~300 years, was not highly settled by them, kicked out all of its moriscos (as far as I know) and yet has more North African Input than all of Spain? That makes makes no sense if you only take into account one North African incursion, it with the Moors.

For the longest time, all Spanish papers were fixated on were "teh Moors" and little else. Nothing on the Celts. Nothing on the Romans. Only the Moors. It was tiresome. At any rate, this shows that the North African arrived before then, during the Roman Occupation, and so it matches our own historical records a lot better.

[XenophobicPrussian]

That's not under dispute. What we have disagreed with is when the event occurred. It makes no sense that the "moors" and the invasions (when we mean the moors, we are talking about muslim north african invaders) were the only source of it. The reason for it is that it made no sense when matched up with where the highest concentration of north african blood is located, as well as historical records. We kicked out almost all of them, and most of the North African blood is in areas with the least amount of Moorish conquest and control. How is that Portugal was only under Moorish occupation for ~300 years, was not highly settled by them, kicked out all of its moriscos (as far as I know) and yet has more North African Input than all of Spain? That makes makes no sense if you only take into account one North African incursion, it with the Moors.

For the longest time, all Spanish papers were fixated on were "teh Moors" and little else. Nothing on the Celts. Nothing on the Romans. Only the Moors. It was tiresome. At any rate, this shows that the North African arrived before then, during the Roman Occupation, and so it matches our own historical records a lot better.
There isn't any dispute. You cannot read this paper and not come out with the conclusion that there is significant double digit North African admixture in most of Iberia.

"We kicked out almost all of them". lol no. You kicked out the ones who didn't convert or didn't already intermarry with the local population.

There are literally individuals in this paper that are way outside the Spanish average and have nearly half North African ancestry up to the 16th century, that's going to be from the Moors, not earlier.

[Token]

Okay, the samples are avaiable on G25, gotta run lots of models.

Spaniards apparently got basically zero Visigothic admixture, they can be modelled as a two-way mixture of Roman period Iberians (who were mostly Celtiberian anyway) and Celtiberians, with some North African admixture. The Portuguese and Galicians does seems to prefer Visigothic admixed Iberians, specially the Galicians. Suebi?

[1] "distance%=2.1834"
Spanish_Galicia

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,32.8 - Visigothic period Iberian
Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,28.6 - Roman period Iberian
Iberia_North_IA,26.4 - Celtiberian
Moroccan,12.2

[1] "distance%=2.1078"
Portuguese

Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,46.6 - Roman period Iberian
Iberia_North_IA,27 - Celtiberian
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,15.6 - Visigothic period Iberian
Moroccan,10.8

[Lucas]

Visigothic genotype rathe. I will upload only those bolded

I12030 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.026
I12031 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.46
I12032 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.17
I12029 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.003
I12033 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.031
I12034 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.43
I12163 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.35
I12164 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.03
I12162 NE_Iberia_c_6CE_PL - genotype rate 0.36

[Dick]

Yeah! At least Visigoths. I'm starting to convert:) Soon on Gedmatch.

What will be soon?

[Joso]

Amazing! It just proves what we already knew: Atlanto-meds are ugly and North African looking.

[Token]

From what i saw in the PCA, one of the Visigoths plots with Germans. The rest looks like Germanic admixed Iberians.

[Dick]

From what i saw in the PCA, one of the Visigoths plots with Germans. The rest looks like Germanic admixed Iberians.

Are you sure these Visigoth samples aren't actually Suebi. I doubt the Goths were "pure" once they arrived in Spain.

[Lucas]

Genesis EA3865424


Visigoth I12032

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 33.27
2 Atlantic 23.91
3 West_Med 14.67
4 Baltic 8.68
5 Eastern_Euro 7.26
6 East_Med 6.33
7 West_Asian 4.52
8 Siberian 1.36

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 4.5
2 French 5.72
3 South_Dutch 5.82
4 Southwest_English 7.08
5 Southeast_English 8.6
6 North_Dutch 10.21
7 North_German 10.26
8 Danish 10.59
9 Irish 10.78
10 Orcadian 10.87
11 West_Scottish 11.04
12 Norwegian 11.98
13 East_German 12.52
14 Spanish_Galicia 12.62
15 West_Norwegian 12.93
16 Swedish 13.09
17 Spanish_Cataluna 13.26
18 Portuguese 13.86
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.87
20 North_Swedish 15.03

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.6% West_German + 17.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.92
2 88.4% West_German + 11.6% French_Basque @ 2.99
3 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.03
4 79.8% West_German + 20.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.1
5 84.3% West_German + 15.7% Southwest_French @ 3.11
6 84.7% West_German + 15.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.16
7 60% West_German + 40% French @ 3.22
8 58.4% West_Norwegian + 41.6% North_Italian @ 3.23
9 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.24
10 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Sardinian @ 3.25

[Lucas]

Visigoth I12162

Kit YK2572384

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 33.25
2 Atlantic 22.99
3 West_Med 12.81
4 Baltic 8.84
5 Eastern_Euro 8.26
6 West_Asian 5.55
7 East_Med 1.67
8 Southeast_Asian 1.58
9 Red_Sea 1.38
10 Oceanian 1.16
11 Northeast_African 1.13
12 South_Asian 0.7
13 Amerindian 0.36
14 Sub-Saharan 0.32

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 5.09
2 South_Dutch 5.97
3 Southwest_English 6.38
4 French 7.76
5 Southeast_English 7.92
6 North_Dutch 8.62
7 North_German 8.72
8 Danish 9.13
9 Orcadian 9.48
10 Irish 9.6
11 West_Scottish 9.82
12 Norwegian 10.14
13 Swedish 11.22
14 West_Norwegian 11.34
15 East_German 11.36
16 North_Swedish 13.09
17 Spanish_Galicia 14.74
18 Hungarian 15.2
19 Austrian 15.62
20 Spanish_Cataluna 15.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.7% French + 41.3% Norwegian @ 4.31
2 63.4% West_German + 36.6% Southwest_English @ 4.32
3 62% French + 38% West_Norwegian @ 4.37
4 60.7% Norwegian + 39.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.42
5 57.4% West_Norwegian + 42.6% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.51
6 63.1% Norwegian + 36.9% Portuguese @ 4.55
7 62% French + 38% Swedish @ 4.56
8 92.3% West_German + 7.7% French_Basque @ 4.58
9 64% West_German + 36% South_Dutch @ 4.64
10 59.9% West_Norwegian + 40.1% Portuguese @ 4.66

[Dick]

Genesis EA3865424


Visigoth I12032

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 33.27
2 Atlantic 23.91
3 West_Med 14.67
4 Baltic 8.68
5 Eastern_Euro 7.26
6 East_Med 6.33
7 West_Asian 4.52
8 Siberian 1.36

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 4.5
2 French 5.72
3 South_Dutch 5.82
4 Southwest_English 7.08
5 Southeast_English 8.6
6 North_Dutch 10.21
7 North_German 10.26
8 Danish 10.59
9 Irish 10.78
10 Orcadian 10.87
11 West_Scottish 11.04
12 Norwegian 11.98
13 East_German 12.52
14 Spanish_Galicia 12.62
15 West_Norwegian 12.93
16 Swedish 13.09
17 Spanish_Cataluna 13.26
18 Portuguese 13.86
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.87
20 North_Swedish 15.03

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.6% West_German + 17.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.92
2 88.4% West_German + 11.6% French_Basque @ 2.99
3 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.03
4 79.8% West_German + 20.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.1
5 84.3% West_German + 15.7% Southwest_French @ 3.11
6 84.7% West_German + 15.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.16
7 60% West_German + 40% French @ 3.22
8 58.4% West_Norwegian + 41.6% North_Italian @ 3.23
9 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.24
10 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Sardinian @ 3.25

This must be Suebi

[Lucas]

Visigoth I12163

Kit KH6396435

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 32.01
2 Atlantic 20.13
3 East_Med 10.35
4 West_Med 9.75
5 Baltic 9.03
6 Eastern_Euro 8.65
7 West_Asian 6.53
8 Amerindian 1.53
9 Red_Sea 1.32
10 Northeast_African 0.55
11 Siberian 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 4.94
2 South_Dutch 8.41
3 French 9.2
4 North_German 10.74
5 Southwest_English 11.33
6 Southeast_English 11.58
7 Danish 11.75
8 North_Dutch 11.76
9 East_German 12.1
10 Norwegian 12.72
11 Hungarian 12.9
12 Swedish 13.13
13 Irish 13.16
14 West_Scottish 13.36
15 Orcadian 13.51
16 Serbian 13.64
17 Austrian 13.94
18 West_Norwegian 14
19 North_Swedish 14.32
20 Spanish_Galicia 15.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.7% West_Norwegian + 25.3% Cyprian @ 2.16
2 68.2% West_Norwegian + 31.8% South_Italian @ 2.17
3 66.1% West_Norwegian + 33.9% Central_Greek @ 2.29
4 66.4% West_Norwegian + 33.6% East_Sicilian @ 2.35
5 70.1% West_Norwegian + 29.9% Italian_Jewish @ 2.35
6 91.5% West_German + 8.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.4
7 63.7% West_Norwegian + 36.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.48
8 91.8% West_German + 8.2% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.54
9 71.1% West_Norwegian + 28.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.61
10 91.8% West_German + 8.2% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.62

[Morena]

There isn't any dispute. You cannot read this paper and not come out with the conclusion that there is significant double digit North African admixture in most of Iberia.

"We kicked out almost all of them". lol no. You kicked out the ones who didn't convert or didn't already intermarry with the local population.

There are literally individuals in this paper that are way outside the Spanish average and have nearly half North African ancestry up to the 16th century, that's going to be from the Moors, not earlier.
Didn't you see the illustration that came with the paper? The input began with the Romans. And where is this double digit input? Pleas post genetic results from Peninsulares (non canarians) with double digit North African.

https://i.4cdn.org/his/1552610245082.jpg

Thanks a lot, BIGGUS DICKUS. You started that bullshit.

[Lucas]

Nearly Spaniard:)

Visigoth I12034


Kit LK3037074

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.35
2 West_Med 25.86
3 North_Sea 24.83
4 Baltic 5.83
5 East_Med 4.66
6 Eastern_Euro 2.17
7 Oceanian 1.55
8 Amerindian 0.92
9 West_Asian 0.79
10 Red_Sea 0.79
11 Southeast_Asian 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Cantabria 5.97
2 Southwest_French 7.61
3 Spanish_Cataluna 8.09
4 Spanish_Aragon 8.14
5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 8.69
6 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 8.95
7 Portuguese 9.39
8 Spanish_Valencia 9.46
9 Spanish_Murcia 9.7
10 Spanish_Galicia 9.77
11 Spanish_Extremadura 9.92
12 Spanish_Andalucia 10.75
13 French 12.79
14 French_Basque 13.4
15 North_Italian 15.6
16 South_Dutch 16.68
17 Southwest_English 17.75
18 Southeast_English 19.44
19 West_German 19.46
20 Irish 21.31

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.3% Spanish_Cantabria + 8.7% Orcadian @ 5.6
2 89.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 10.5% Southwest_English @ 5.64
3 93% Spanish_Cantabria + 7% West_Norwegian @ 5.65
4 91.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 8.4% Southeast_English @ 5.73
5 92.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 7.3% West_Scottish @ 5.74
6 93.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 6.2% Norwegian @ 5.74
7 92.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 7.3% Irish @ 5.75
8 93.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 6.6% North_Dutch @ 5.77
9 94.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 5.2% Swedish @ 5.8
10 94.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 5.3% Danish @ 5.84

[Lucas]

And this one, probably local from Balkans (Mesia or Dacia) taken with Goths.

Visigoth I12031

Kit BA8274765

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 20.9
2 Atlantic 18.91
3 Baltic 15.9
4 West_Med 11.29
5 East_Med 10.98
6 Eastern_Euro 10.41
7 West_Asian 8.33
8 Red_Sea 1.71
9 Siberian 1.16
10 South_Asian 0.29
11 Southeast_Asian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 3.54
2 Romanian 6.44
3 Austrian 6.6
4 Hungarian 6.79
5 Moldavian 8.66
6 Croatian 8.91
7 Bulgarian 9.49
8 East_German 9.83
9 South_Dutch 13.05
10 French 13.19
11 West_German 13.54
12 Ukrainian_Lviv 14.62
13 South_Polish 14.69
14 North_Italian 15.05
15 Ukrainian 15.53
16 Greek_Thessaly 15.7
17 North_German 15.76
18 Spanish_Galicia 16.07
19 Spanish_Cataluna 16.48
20 Portuguese 16.66

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% Bulgarian + 31.9% Norwegian @ 1.59
2 67.6% Bulgarian + 32.4% Swedish @ 1.7
3 75% Romanian + 25% Danish @ 1.75
4 75.3% Romanian + 24.7% North_Dutch @ 1.79
5 66.9% Bulgarian + 33.1% North_Swedish @ 1.79
6 76.4% Romanian + 23.6% Norwegian @ 1.83
7 70.4% Bulgarian + 29.6% West_Norwegian @ 1.86
8 71.7% Romanian + 28.3% North_German @ 1.86
9 78.8% East_German + 21.2% Cyprian @ 1.88
10 77% Romanian + 23% West_Scottish @ 1.94

[XenophobicPrussian]

Expanding on Token's summary for those who care about comparisons to modern pops and don't want to read the article:

- Copper Age Iberia is when the first steppe admixture enters Iberia, most of Iberia is EEF+something like 30% WHG, with a few pure N. Euro Bell Beaker outliers and some mixes between the two.

- All of Iberia in the bronze age(post Bell Beaker invasions) was Basque-like or intermediary between Basques and Iberia_CA. All of it, all the way down to Portugal.

- Iberia_IA recieves more Indo-European admixture and is still mostly Basque-like but with 1 N. Euro Bell Beaker outlier and a bunch of mixes between the two.

- In the early medieval period, you have more northern outliers(Visigoths?) in the north-east, heavily North African admixed(up to 50-70% for the most admixed) people in south-east Iberia, and the average population in NE Iberia is around modern Iberians now. The North African admixed people date from 200 BC(so before the Moors) to 1500 AD, but there's only 2 samples before the Moors, the majority are post-Moor invasion.

- Oddly, both Greek and Italian colonists were extremely similar, clustering with Myceneans and modern Cretans. One more exotic Roman outlier probably around Cypriots. Modern Iberians have significant Roman/Greek admixture.

[Lucas]

This must be Suebi

Why? They didn't live in Catalonia but Galicia. And were hostile towards Goths.

Those samples are from Catalonia (Gotalandia).

[Dick]

Why? They don't live in Catalonia. And were hostile towards Goths.

Looks too western Germanic?

[Leto]

- In the early medieval period, you have more northern outliers(Visigoths?) in the north-east, heavily North African admixed(up to 50-70% for the most admixed) people in south-east Iberia, and the average population in NE Iberia is around modern Iberians now. The North African admixed people date from 200 BC(so before the Moors) to 1500 BC, but there's only 2 samples before the Moors, the majority are post-Moor invasion.

But what is Nort African? They are a mix of several components. That's not pure Negroid DNA by any means.

[Token]

Are you sure these Visigoth samples aren't actually Suebi. I doubt the Goths were "pure" once they arrived in Spain.
Yeah, they were Visigoths for sure, the site was in Catalonia (Gotalandia). This is how the paper describes the site:

Immediately to the north of this area, a necropolis associated with the villa has been
found, with a funerary building and a series of tombs. This site clearly belongs to the
villa, which would subsequently be extended in the Visigoth period. The samples that
have been analyzed correspond to this Visigothic phase. Several types of burials can be
seen, from a simple grave to a cist. The number of burials identified (58), as well as the
results of the analysis, demonstrate the persistence and importance of the habitat, even
though it has not yet been identified archaeologically. The grave goods and the typology
of the tombs point to a Visigothic origin of the individuals.

[Lucas]

Looks too western Germanic?

Contrary to Peterski dreams they aren't Polish like:) And this one from Balkans doesn't look Central Euro Slavic but Paleo-Balkanic mainly with hint of Germanic admixture which pulls him north a little.

[Damião de Góis]

Since they are from Catalonia those could even be Franks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marca_Hispanica

I think Visigoths were more mixed when they got to Iberia, so them being close to West Germans is a bit of a surprise.

[Bellbeaking]

https://i.imgur.com/6fUKRYk.jpg

where these moors mixed with locals or is their iberian from migration into Iberia

[Lucas]

Since they are from Catalonia those could even be Franks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marca_Hispanica

I think Visigoths were more mixed when they got to Iberia, so them being close to West Germans is a bit of a surprise.

Not from such age (500-600 CE). Frankish rule was later.

[Peterski]

And this one, probably local from Balkans (Mesia or Dacia) taken with Goths.

(...)

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 3.54
2 Romanian 6.44
3 Austrian 6.6
4 Hungarian 6.79
5 Moldavian 8.66
6 Croatian 8.91
7 Bulgarian 9.49

(...)

A local from Pre-Slavic Balkans would never plot with modern Serbs.

Compare how Pre-Slavic ancient Balkan samples score on GEDmatch:

I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria - JD6924634
I4331 Ancient Croatia J2b2a - RL6378186
I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - TX8387837
I3313 Dalmatia Bronze Age - SZ6386770

If anything this guy could be one of ca. 15,000 Slavic people in Spain:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281892-There-were-15-000-Slavic-people-in-Medieval-Spain

[Dick]

Contrary to Peterski dreams they aren't Polish like:) And this one from Balkans doesn't look Central Euro Slavic but Paleo-Balkanic mainly with hint of Germanic admixture which pulls him north a little.

Do you know their ydna, especially the Balkan-like one?

[Peterski]

Contrary to Peterski dreams they aren't Polish like

Well, they are already mixed with Balkan natives. But they are not Balkan natives.

Pre-Slavic Balkanites were much more Southern European than modern Serbs etc.:

https://i.imgur.com/LTO0CTS.png

^^^ Kit numbers on GEDmatch Genesis:

I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria - JD6924634
I3313 Dalmatia Bronze Age - SZ6386770

And these two are very similar to I3313:

I4331 Ancient Croatia J2b2a - RL6378186
I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - TX8387837

[Lucas]

A local from Pre-Slavic Balkans would never plot with modern Serbs.

Compare how Pre-Slavic ancient Balkan samples score on GEDmatch:

I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria - JD6924634
I4331 Ancient Croatia J2b2a - RL6378186
I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - TX8387837
I3313 Dalmatia Bronze Age - SZ6386770

If anything this guy could be one of ca. 15,000 Slavic people in Spain:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281892-There-were-15-000-Slavic-people-in-Medieval-Spain

We have such samples from Baiuvarii and if I remember Longobard dataset. They were such Balkanite like individuals. Maybe surprisingly autosomal makeup in Romania and Bulgaria didn't change much.

It couldn't be "Slav" from Poland or Ukraine for example because why he plots near Balkanites in such case? Would be much more NE Euro.

In times were Visgoths were in Dacia or Mesia migrating Slavs (but it is too early btw) would be much more BaltoSalvic like. Like pseudo Avar Szolad sample.

[Peterski]

It couldn't be "Slav" from Poland or Ukraine for example because why he plots near Balkanites in such case?

Most of Slavs in Spain were of South Slavic origin. They were mercenaries, slaves, and pirates such as these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines

Why would they plot with Poles or Ukrainians? They were not directly from Poland but from South Slavic lands.

Apparently they were already mixed with local Pre-Slavic population by that time.

What is the dating of this sample, which years?

[Ayetooey]

And this one, probably local from Balkans (Mesia or Dacia) taken with Goths.

Visigoth I12031

Kit BA8274765

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 20.9
2 Atlantic 18.91
3 Baltic 15.9
4 West_Med 11.29
5 East_Med 10.98
6 Eastern_Euro 10.41
7 West_Asian 8.33
8 Red_Sea 1.71
9 Siberian 1.16
10 South_Asian 0.29
11 Southeast_Asian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 3.54
2 Romanian 6.44
3 Austrian 6.6
4 Hungarian 6.79
5 Moldavian 8.66
6 Croatian 8.91
7 Bulgarian 9.49
8 East_German 9.83
9 South_Dutch 13.05
10 French 13.19
11 West_German 13.54
12 Ukrainian_Lviv 14.62
13 South_Polish 14.69
14 North_Italian 15.05
15 Ukrainian 15.53
16 Greek_Thessaly 15.7
17 North_German 15.76
18 Spanish_Galicia 16.07
19 Spanish_Cataluna 16.48
20 Portuguese 16.66

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% Bulgarian + 31.9% Norwegian @ 1.59
2 67.6% Bulgarian + 32.4% Swedish @ 1.7
3 75% Romanian + 25% Danish @ 1.75
4 75.3% Romanian + 24.7% North_Dutch @ 1.79
5 66.9% Bulgarian + 33.1% North_Swedish @ 1.79
6 76.4% Romanian + 23.6% Norwegian @ 1.83
7 70.4% Bulgarian + 29.6% West_Norwegian @ 1.86
8 71.7% Romanian + 28.3% North_German @ 1.86
9 78.8% East_German + 21.2% Cyprian @ 1.88
10 77% Romanian + 23% West_Scottish @ 1.94

Wow. You know his Y dna?

[XenophobicPrussian]

Didn't you see the illustration that came with the paper? The input began with the Romans. And where is this double digit input? Pleas post genetic results from Peninsulares (non canarians) with double digit North African.

Thanks a lot, BIGGUS DICKUS. You started that bullshit.
There are only 2 pre-Moor North African admixed individuals and 1 BA outlier. The rest(over a dozen) are post-Moor.

This paper didn't do any models on modern Iberians, but one of the 2018 papers on Spain already confirmed double digit numbers with formal models.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/250191v1

[Lucas]

Most of Slavs in Spain were of South Slavic origin. They were mercenaries, slaves, and pirates such as these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines

Why would they plot with Poles or Ukrainians? They were not directly from Poland but from South Slavic lands.

Apparently they were already mixed with local Pre-Slavic population by that time.

What is the dating of this sample, which years?

500-600 CE too early for Slavic mercenaries, which were in Spain yes, but much later. They just reached Balkans in hordes with Avars,

[Peterski]

Jordanes in his "History of the Wars" wrote that Byzantine Army was using Slavic mercenaries during Gothic Wars.

Maybe he was one of Slavic mercenaries who fought against Visigoths in Iberia, maybe traitor who deserted to Goths.

[Lucas]

I think Visigoths were more mixed when they got to Iberia, so them being close to West Germans is a bit of a surprise.

It is surprise yes. They have lon way form Ukraine through Balkans, Italy, Galia. And first three are quite pure "racially".

[Peterski]

500-600 CE too early for Slavic mercenaries, which were in Spain yes, but much later. They just reached Balkans in hordes with Avars,

South Slavs lived north of the Danube already before 500 CE. After 500 CE they crossed the Roman frontier at the Danube.

Avars came later, early invasions of the Balkans were carried out by Slavs alone.

Avars were actually called by Byzantine Emperor to help him against Slavic attacks, but they betrayed and united with Slavs.

[Lucas]

Jordanes in his "History of the Wars" wrote that Byzantine Army was using Slavic mercenaries during Gothic Wars.

Maybe he was one of Slavic mercenaries who fought against Visigoths in Iberia, maybe traitor who deserted to Goths.

But it is too early to be like modern Bulgarian with 1/4 Norwegian admix. I'm sure in Gothic wars those Slavs were not mixed with locals yet, simply not too many time for that. They were like Szolad sample.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Okay, the samples are avaiable on G25, gotta run lots of models.

Spaniards apparently got basically zero Visigothic admixture, they can be modelled as a two-way mixture of Roman period Iberians (who were mostly Celtiberian anyway) and Celtiberians, with some North African admixture. The Portuguese and Galicians does seems to prefer Visigothic admixed Iberians, specially the Galicians. Suebi?

[1] "distance%=2.1834"
Spanish_Galicia

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,32.8 - Visigothic period Iberian
Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,28.6 - Roman period Iberian
Iberia_North_IA,26.4 - Celtiberian
Moroccan,12.2

[1] "distance%=2.1078"
Portuguese

Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,46.6 - Roman period Iberian
Iberia_North_IA,27 - Celtiberian
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,15.6 - Visigothic period Iberian
Moroccan,10.8

Seems to correlate with the notion I had from analysing modern samples that both Galicians and Portugueses usually have higher Germanic input. Catalonians as well but is their Germanic input more modern/recent and not necessarily from Visigoths?

[Dick]

And this one, probably local from Balkans (Mesia or Dacia) taken with Goths.

Visigoth I12031

Kit BA8274765

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 20.9
2 Atlantic 18.91
3 Baltic 15.9
4 West_Med 11.29
5 East_Med 10.98
6 Eastern_Euro 10.41
7 West_Asian 8.33
8 Red_Sea 1.71
9 Siberian 1.16
10 South_Asian 0.29
11 Southeast_Asian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 3.54
2 Romanian 6.44
3 Austrian 6.6
4 Hungarian 6.79
5 Moldavian 8.66
6 Croatian 8.91
7 Bulgarian 9.49
8 East_German 9.83
9 South_Dutch 13.05
10 French 13.19
11 West_German 13.54
12 Ukrainian_Lviv 14.62
13 South_Polish 14.69
14 North_Italian 15.05
15 Ukrainian 15.53
16 Greek_Thessaly 15.7
17 North_German 15.76
18 Spanish_Galicia 16.07
19 Spanish_Cataluna 16.48
20 Portuguese 16.66

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% Bulgarian + 31.9% Norwegian @ 1.59
2 67.6% Bulgarian + 32.4% Swedish @ 1.7
3 75% Romanian + 25% Danish @ 1.75
4 75.3% Romanian + 24.7% North_Dutch @ 1.79
5 66.9% Bulgarian + 33.1% North_Swedish @ 1.79
6 76.4% Romanian + 23.6% Norwegian @ 1.83
7 70.4% Bulgarian + 29.6% West_Norwegian @ 1.86
8 71.7% Romanian + 28.3% North_German @ 1.86
9 78.8% East_German + 21.2% Cyprian @ 1.88
10 77% Romanian + 23% West_Scottish @ 1.94

https://i.imgur.com/8rpjY0t.png


Compared to mine


https://i.imgur.com/zCjJ4Zv.png

[Peterski]

Ethnic situation in 500 CE according to descriptions by Jordanes and Procopius:

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/antes-and-sclavenes-around-500-ad-according-to-jordanes/

https://i0.wp.com/slavicchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/mapa.png?resize=752%2C446

^^^ After 568 CE, Gepids and Longobards are pushed out of Pannonia into Italy.

[Lucas]

https://i.imgur.com/8rpjY0t.png


Compared to mine


https://i.imgur.com/zCjJ4Zv.png

Lol you are a Goth:)

[Peterski]

Lol you are a Goth:)

Right before invading the Balkans, Goths lived north of the Danube. Apparently they were already mixed with whatever locals lived there before.

But you know what? Goths encountered Slavs already before invading Rome. So there could be Slavs (especially Antes) among the Goths as well:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcuVJUKZvx4

[Lucas]

Ethnic situation in 500 CE according to descriptions by Jordanes and Procopius:

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/antes-and-sclavenes-around-500-ad-according-to-jordanes/

https://i0.wp.com/slavicchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/mapa.png?resize=752%2C446

^^^ After 568 CE, Gepids and Longobards are pushed out of Pannonia into Italy.

Yes, but in 500 CE Visigoths were in Galia since 418:)

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

@Token

Also why do you use Morrocan sample with Roman, Visigoths, Iberian and Celtiberian? Why using a modern sample among those? Shouldn't you be using instead Ibero-Maurussian or Mozabite Berber? Modern Moroccans have significant Iberian input.

[Peterski]

I'm sure in Gothic wars those Slavs were not mixed with locals yet, simply not too many time for that.

Goths and Slavs lived next to each other already in 380 CE (if not earlier - according to Kostrzewski Slavs were native to Poland, and Goths marched across Poland):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Kostrzewski

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boz_(king) - Slavic king who fought against the Goths in the 300s (according to Jordanes)

Ukraine in 380 AD (Antes were one of major branches of Slavic-speaking peoples):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Ostrogoths%2C_Antes%2C_Huns_and_Alans_in_380.jpg

[Lucas]

Right before invading the Balkans, Goths lived north of the Danube. Apparently they were already mixed with whatever locals lived there before.

But you know what? Goths encountered Slavs already before invading Rome. So there could be Slavs (especially Antes) among the Goths as well:


So you suggest locals north of Danube were like modern Romanians? This is what I said since the begining.



Goths and Slavs lived next to each other already in 380 CE (if not before that - according to Kostrzewski Slavs were native to Poland, and Goths marched across Poland):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boz_(king) - Slavic king who fought against the Goths in the 300s (according to Jordanes)

Or maybe you suggest locals in Poland were Romanian or Bulgarian-like in Gothic times:)? This is hilarious.

[Peterski]

Or maybe you suggest locals in Poland were Romanian or Bulgarian like in Gothic times:)?

This has been reported already, that there were Mediterranean-shifted women in Poland in Gothic times:

http://www.actabp.pl/#Archiwum?./supl/2_2018.html

https://i.imgur.com/TaE5KVL.png

^^^
Probably just like those Mediterranean-shifted women with artificially elongated skulls in Early Medieval Bavaria.

[Dick]

Lol you are a Goth:)

do you know his ydna?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Is there any place where I can find the G25 coordinates for Visigoth, Roman Iberian and Celtiberian? I would love to run a model with my G25.

[Token]

Seems to correlate with the notion I had from analysing modern samples that both Galicians and Portugueses usually have higher Germanic input. Catalonians as well but is their Germanic input more modern/recent and not necessarily from Visigoths?

Yeah, i think so. Not necessarily Germanic imo, their Occitan language is suspicious but i know too little about Catalunya to give you some concise explanation.

[XenophobicPrussian]

It is surprise yes. They have lon way form Ukraine through Balkans, Italy, Galia. And first three are quite pure "racially".
Based on the Baiuvarii and Longobard genomes, all the original Germanic tribes were Scandinavian/North Dutch like. These West German Visigoth samples were also already mixed with Gauls/south German natives or even local Iberians/Romans. West Germans themselves have about 5% Roman admixture, very high Hallstatt Bylany, some of the more southern/EEF shifted Bell Beaker admixture and around 60% Norwegian/typical Baiuvarii /Longobard sample.

As for the Serbian sample, local Balkanite is the least likely. Could be a mix of Visigoth and Roman colonist. Could be one of those early medieval Bavarian Huns that came along with the Visigoths. Could be an Alan. Could be anything really.

[Tacitus]

Genesis EA3865424


Visigoth I12032

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 33.27
2 Atlantic 23.91
3 West_Med 14.67
4 Baltic 8.68
5 Eastern_Euro 7.26
6 East_Med 6.33
7 West_Asian 4.52
8 Siberian 1.36

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 4.5
2 French 5.72
3 South_Dutch 5.82
4 Southwest_English 7.08
5 Southeast_English 8.6
6 North_Dutch 10.21
7 North_German 10.26
8 Danish 10.59
9 Irish 10.78
10 Orcadian 10.87
11 West_Scottish 11.04
12 Norwegian 11.98
13 East_German 12.52
14 Spanish_Galicia 12.62
15 West_Norwegian 12.93
16 Swedish 13.09
17 Spanish_Cataluna 13.26
18 Portuguese 13.86
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.87
20 North_Swedish 15.03

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.6% West_German + 17.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.92
2 88.4% West_German + 11.6% French_Basque @ 2.99
3 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.03
4 79.8% West_German + 20.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.1
5 84.3% West_German + 15.7% Southwest_French @ 3.11
6 84.7% West_German + 15.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.16
7 60% West_German + 40% French @ 3.22
8 58.4% West_Norwegian + 41.6% North_Italian @ 3.23
9 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.24
10 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Sardinian @ 3.25

Can you upload the raw data for the Iron Age Greeks? Thanks.

[XenophobicPrussian]

do you know his ydna?
There's an I1 in a 13k BC Iberian HG btw.

[Lucas]

This has been reported already, that there were Mediterranean-shifted women in Poland in Gothic times:

http://www.actabp.pl/#Archiwum?./supl/2_2018.html

https://i.imgur.com/TaE5KVL.png

^^^
Probably just like those Mediterranean-shifted women with artificially elongated skulls in Early Medieval Bavaria.

Yes, but they were not proto-Slavs but some neolithic farmers remnants. Maybe they genes are still in us but as minority.

[Lucas]

Can you upload the raw data for the Iron Age Greeks? Thanks.

In this paper is Iron Age Greek? What sample.

[Dick]

There's an I1 in a 13k BC Iberian HG btw.

Yes

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)30145-9?fbclid=IwAR02WM9r84OGzOdweQe_yaN455PsZml4Wru_Dxp NSKRbXyDmLLIB2qx2Rg0

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Yeah, i think so. Not necessarily Germanic imo, their Occitan language is suspicious but i know too little about Catalunya to give you some concise explanation.

So basically, it sustains the notions I had regarding the Iberian Peninsula:

Western Iberians: Higher Visigothic\Suebi, Roman and North African input.

Eastern Iberians: Lower Visigothic\Suebi, Roman and North African input. More Basque shifted, even though still significantly distinct from native Basques.

I am still inclined to believe that North African genomes found among Western Iberians was introduced mostly from the pre-Roman and Roman period. History corroborates with this notion (Western Iberia was the least amount of time under Moorish rule in comparison with the rest of the Peninsula and offered a more prosperous coastline, agricultural terrain and climate for survival during the Roman\Visigoth period in comparison with the more inhospitable Eastern side, hence why most of these populations settled here).

[Lucas]

BTW Visigoth I1232 has such mtDNA...


and we observe the Asian mitochondrial DNA(mtDNA) haplogroup C4a1a also found in EarlyMedieval Bavaria (20), supporting a recent linkto groups with ancestry originally derived fromCentral and Eastern Europe

[Tacitus]

In this paper is Iron Age Greek? What sample.

From Empuries.

In the historical period, our transect beginswith 24 individuals from the 5th century BCEto the 6th century CE from the Greek colony of Empúries in the northeast (19)who fall into two main ancestry groups (Fig. 1, C and D, andfig. S8): one similar to Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean, and the other similar to Iron Age Iberians such as those from the nearby non-Greek site of Ullastret, confirming historical sources indicating that this town was inhabitedby a multiethnic population (19).

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

BTW Visigoth I1232 has such mtDNA...

Do you have the haplogroups for Celtiberians?

[Peterski]

I am still inclined to believe that North African genomes found among Western Iberians was introduced mostly from the pre-Roman and Roman period. History corroborates with this notion (Western Iberia was the least amount of time under Moorish rule in comparison with the rest of the Peninsula and offered a more prosperous coastline, agricultural terrain and climate for survival during the Roman\Visigoth period in comparison with the more inhospitable Eastern side, hence why most of these populations settled here).

Already Copper Age Iberian I4246 was genetically North African:

"Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras in central Iberia, radiocarbon dated to 2473–2030 calibrated years BCE, who clusters with modern and ancient North Africans in the PCA (Fig. 1C and fig. S3) and, like ~3000 BCE Moroccans (8), can be well modeled as having ancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans(15) and Early Neolithic Europeans (tables S9 and S10). His genome-wide ancestry and uniparental markers (tables S1 and S4) are unique among Copper Age Iberians, including individuals from sites with many analyzed individuals such as Sima del Ángel, and point to a North African origin. Our genetic evidence of sporadic contacts with North Africa during the Copper Age fits with the presence of African ivory at Iberian sites (16) and is further supported by a Bronze Age individual (I7162) from Loma del Puerco in southern Iberia who had 25% ancestry related to individuals like I4246 (Fig. 1D and table S16)."

Also Carthaginian colonies brought new North African ancestry.

[Lucas]

Do you have the haplogroups for Celtiberians?

Just download suplemental http://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/724016/field_highwire_adjunct_files/2/aav4040_TablesS1-S5.xlsx

[Damião de Góis]

It is surprise yes. They have lon way form Ukraine through Balkans, Italy, Galia. And first three are quite pure "racially".

Yes, and correct me if i'm wrong but what i know about the Visigoths is that the Goths originated in south Sweden (or Northern Germany?) and then moved into Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe they split into Visigoths and Ostrogoths. For example, Alaric was born in present day Romania.
Then they moved around southern Europe until finding their way into Gaul and finally Iberia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Visigoth_migrations.jpg

So seeing a Serbian like Visigoth is not surprising. Several west german like ones though, is unexpected. Unless the swedish theory is not true.

[Gallop]

Alano español
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/4a/fc/094afc22d2fab989bccbf0a6eb99e519.jpg

The Spanish Alano was brought by the vandals who arrived in present-day Andalusia, probably the Alans who integrated with the Vandals.

Dogo español
https://www.elmundodelperro.net/fotos/91/3186_TitandeLosTercios-copia.JPG

The Spanish bulldog would probably come from the Spanish Alano mixed with the Molossians left by the Romans.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsT6yx8_hAkTER_ihO0HGoOWN64KJ-XpNnvfbUf_L-u9_yELFlpQ

[Token]

Do you have the haplogroups for Celtiberians?

- 3 Celtiberians (Celtic speakers), 1 male: I2a1a1a

[Gallop]

On July 19, 711 begins the decisive battle that will definitely open the doors of Hispania to 8 centuries of Muslim domination. The place of the confrontation appears in the Arab sources with several denominations: Wadi Lakk or River of the Lake, identified traditionally with the Guadalete; Wadi-l-Buhayra or La Albufera River, which may correspond to the Barbate River or the La Janda Lagoon. We have always referred to her as the Battle of Guadalete or La Janda

On the one hand we have the Godo army with some 40,000 soldiers, which in principle should be enough to defeat the invading forces. In the Central Body, and under the command of the army, King Don Rodrigo. On the flanks, the brothers of Vitiza, the betrayal was close and Don Rodrigo was naive or had an excess of confidence to place on the wings of his army those who had recently fought for his throne, he believed in loyalty to the causes Goda in the face of the Muslim invasion.

http://www.grandesbatallas.es/batalla%20de%20guadalete.html

https://cinelatura.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/800px-rc3ados_de_andalucc3ada.png?w=378&h=232

At the height of the battle, when the almighty Goth cavalry was clearly dominating the situation, the relatives of Akhila II, who commanded the wings of the Visigothic army, passed to the enemy; with this betrayal they would not get the crown, but they would keep the property over the three thousand farms of the royal patrimony of King Witiza.

https://blogculturalia.net/2012/03/24/articulo-don-rodrigo-y-la-batalla-de-guadalete/

[Peterski]

Yes, and correct me if i'm wrong but what i know about the Visigoths is that the Goths originated in south Sweden (or Northern Germany?) and then moved into Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe they split into Visigoths and Ostrogoths. For example, Alaric was born in present day Romania.
Then they moved around southern Europe until finding their way into Gaul and finally Iberia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Visigoth_migrations.jpg

So seeing a Serbian like Visigoth is not surprising. Several west german like ones though, is unexpected. Unless the swedish theory is not true.

Original Goths were probably most similar to modern Danes and South Swedes.

They could become West German like after absorbing some Celts and Dacians.

[Lucas]

Gothic haplos

https://i.postimg.cc/NGJJ1cSQ/Bez-nazwy-8.png

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Just download suplemental http://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/724016/field_highwire_adjunct_files/2/aav4040_TablesS1-S5.xlsx

Thank you! I am surprised to see that there are many samples with my haplogroup (R1b-L21\R1b1a2a1a2c) considering it is not that common nowadays in the Iberian Peninsula.

[Dick]

Just download suplemental http://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/724016/field_highwire_adjunct_files/2/aav4040_TablesS1-S5.xlsx

So the Serbian-like one was E-v13 I'm guessing. Then he really was assimilated by them

[Peterski]

Gothic haplos

https://i.postimg.cc/NGJJ1cSQ/Bez-nazwy-8.png

W6a is my mtDNA haplogroup, the same as I12034 Visigoth.

[Token]

Original Goths were probably most similar to modern Danes and South Swedes.

They could become West German like after absorbing some Celts and Dacians.

Most similar to Norwegians in my opinion.

[Ayetooey]

Could anyone unpack this statement for me? From another Iberian paper. Is this the oldest i2a1b so far? Older than Motala?

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)30145-9

"BAL0051 could be assigned to haplogroup I1, while BAL003 carries the C1a1a haplogroup. To the limits of our typing resolution, EN/MN individuals CHA001, CHA003, ELT002 and ELT006 share haplogroup I2a1b, which was also reported for Loschbour [73] and Motala HG [13], and other LN and Chalcolithic individuals from Iberia "

[Lucas]

So the Serbian-like one was E-v13 I'm guessing. Then he really was assimilated by them

Oh good point! It is Paleo-Balkan haplo.

[Peterski]

Most similar to Norwegians in my opinion.

Leaks from upcoming Wielbark paper suggest they were like Jutland Iron Age.

[Cristiano viejo]

Moors did contributed to the Iberian genepool and this paper confirms it once for all.

No, not true. This study is about one week ago or so, and I posted it (remember, Iberia, the most analyzed place in the world)


... El trabajo consistió en un análisis genómico de cuatro individuos del norte de Portugal y el sur de España, que van desde el Medio Neolítico a la Edad de Bronce, en los que detectaron además ADN africano en su genoma nuclear, informaron integrantes del equipo a la agencia SINC.

“Nuestros resultados constatan, por primera vez, la existencia de contacto y flujo génico desde África a la Península Ibérica hace unos 4.000 años, probablemente a través del estrecho de Gibraltar. Se demuestra, por tanto, que la presencia de diversidad genética africana en la composición genómica de la población ibérica actual es muy anterior a la presencia islámica en la Península”, declara González Fortes.

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/3574861/0/cordobeses-hace-4000-anos-tenian-genes-africanos/#xtor=AD-15&xts=467263

[Peterski]

(...)

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/thesaurus/tribes-and-peoples/goths-

Goths
Goths, an East Germanic people of Scandinavian origin. The earliest references to the G. are in Strabo and Tacitus, by whom they area placed, before 18/19 AD, on the southern coast of the Baltic. According to Ptolemy the G. were found to the east of the Vistula River. The crucial source on the history of the G. is Getica of →Jordanes , an extract from an earlier work by →Cassiodorus which he wrote at the behest of King Theodoric the Great to record the history of the G. In Getica there is a legend about three ships on which, led by Berig, their king, the G. came across the sea to a place known as Gothiscandza, identified with the region at the mouth of the Vistula River. From this area, under Filimer, fifth king after Berig, they set off to the south-east, to the Black Sea (Pontus) crossing a great marsh and reaching the fertile land of Oium. The marsh is identified with Polesia, and Oium would be the steppes of southern Ukraine. On the Black Sea the G. arrived before 238 AD (perhaps, even earlier during the 3rd century) and began attacking the Roman cities there; the first to be plundered was Olbia on the estuary of the Southern Bug River, and soon after, Histria, on the mouth of the Danube. On their pirate ships the G. made excursions on the Greek islands and Peloponnese. In 251 in the Battle of Abrittus (Razgrad in Dobruja) they slew Emperor Decius. The G. were defeated sometime later by emperors Claudius (269) and Aurelian (271).

G. have been identified with →Wielbark Culture (named after a prehistoric cemetery at Malbork-Wielbark) which developed on the Lower Vistula during the first half of the 1st century AD and later spread across the region to the west of the Vistula River in the lake districts of the region (Pojezierze Kaszubskie, Pojezierze Krajeńskie) all the way to the Tuchola Forest and northern reaches of Greater Poland. East of the Vistula River Wielbark Culture took in the lake district of Iława (Pojezierze Iławskie) and reached the Parsęta River and the area near today’s Olsztyn. Starting from late 2nd century finds of Wielbark Culture shift to the south-east, to the part of Mazowsze east of the Vistula River, Podlahia, Polesia, Volhyn and Podolia. In the Hrubieszów Basin a new, distinctive Masłomęcz Group takes form. During the same period the cemeteries of Wielbark Culture in eastern Pomerania fall out of use. These changes in settlement nicely correspond to the migration of the G. known from the written sources.

Starting from the first half of the 3rd century, across much of Ukraine, to the south of Kiev all the way to the Black Sea, between the Western Bug and the Desna and the Donets rivers, Cherniakhiv Culture takes form (named after a cemetery discovered at Cherniakhiv), its decline synchronised with the invasion of →Huns in 375.

Around 290 on the Black Sea the G. split into →Ostrogoths and →Visigoths .

[Lucas]

W6a is my mtDNA haplogroup, the same as I12034 Visigoth.

So proof that they marched through Poland. But his autosomal was very Western Euro.

[Dick]

Oh good point! It is Paleo-Balkan haplo.

Also the J2a. They really did make the trek from the Balkans to Iberia then.

[Gallop]

Omar ben Hafsún was born in Parauta, a Spanish municipality located west of the current province of Málaga, during the Emirate of Córdoba. This population, located in the Valley of Genal, is one of the towns that make up the region of the Serrania de Ronda, probably in the place called "La Torrecilla", today village of Parauta, in a family of Muslim landowners of Gothic nobility

According to the historian Isidro García Cigüenza, the origin of the surname of Omar was Hafs and to this was added the term "un" that among the Arabs was distinctive of nobility, with the surname remaining in Hafsún.
Life as a fugitive
The origin of how Omar became a rebel, according to the writer Jorge Alonso García, is in an incident that occurred when he discovered that a Berber pastor was stealing cattle from his grandfather, Yacfar ibn Salim. Omar confronted him, killing him. After this murder, Omar had to hide in the Sierra del Alto Guadalhorce (Gorge of the Gaitanes), taking refuge in the ruins of an old castle that will be the impregnable Bobastro, since he knew he would be persecuted by the Berber vigilantes. The rebellion occurred in 878.

With the support of his uncle Muhadir he managed to gather a party of Mozarabs, Muladi and even Berbers unhappy with the aristocracy of Arab origin, and giving evidence of what was later proven in many races, that is, his great skills as a military strategist, Omar, as a first measure reinforced and improved the defenses of the castle of Bobastro, in the north of the province of Malaga, making it practically impregnable, as would be demonstrated throughout the more than forty years that he resisted the Umayyad attacks.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Rebeli%C3%B3nDeIbnHafs%C3%BAn.svg/800px-Rebeli%C3%B3nDeIbnHafs%C3%BAn.svg.png
Approximate extension of the rebellion of Omar ben Hafsún around 912, before the campaigns of Abderramán against him and his children, which ended with the crushing of the long uprising against the Cordovan authority in 928.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_ben_Hafs%C3%BAn
The wikipedia in Spanish is better and to translate it to its language in subjects of Spain where the wikipedia in English is very poor and brief in subjects on Spain.

Personally I think that Omar after Samuel was originally Alano who would have come with the Vandals later joining the Goths or Visigoths when they arrived in the current Andalusia.

[Token]

Leaks from upcoming Wielbark paper suggest they were like Jutland Iron Age.

I have seen the Wielbark samples. I guarantee you they were not like Danes or Swedes.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Why the Romans and Visigoths chose to settle in the Western side of Peninsula and its coastline rather than the Centre and East side? This map should give you some clues:

https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/EarlyMiningintheLowerSeguraValleySESpain/Image,280457,en.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

Why the Romans and Visigoths chose to settle in the Western side of Peninsula and its coastline rather than the Centre and East side? This map should give you some clues:

Well, the capital city of the Visigoth kingdom was... Toledo, in the same fuckin absolute centre of the peninsula...

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

- 3 Celtiberians (Celtic speakers), 1 male: I2a1a1a

Can you run the same model you did before for the Portuguese average but replace the modern Moroccan for Ibero-Maurusian? I would like to see the results. Thanks in advance.

[Token]

No, not true. This study is about one week ago or so, and I posted it (remember, Iberia, the most analyzed place in the world)

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/3574861/0/cordobeses-hace-4000-anos-tenian-genes-africanos/#xtor=AD-15&xts=467263

I've posted this study here much before you and the guy had straight-up SSA ancestry, and he was only one outlier out of hundred of samples from Neolithic Iberia. I doubt you'd like the idea of having direct Sub-Saharan African admixture :laugh:

[Peterski]

I have mtDNA W6a which was previously identified as "Proto-Slavic" in my mtDNA Wiki report:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?233833-My-mtDNA-Wiki-report-Proto-Slavic-Corded-Ware

https://i.imgur.com/6RAhKWS.png

^^^ One of Iberian Visigoths - I12034 - has the same mtDNA haplogroup (which is quite rare):

https://i.imgur.com/eQM1kTg.png

[FilhoV]

How many of these samples came back as G?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

How many of these samples came back as G?

At least 20.

[Cristiano viejo]

I've posted this study here much before you and the guy had straight-up SSA ancestry, and he was only one outlier out of hundred of samples from Neolithic Iberia. I doubt you'd like the idea of having direct Sub-Saharan African admixture :laugh:

The study says nothing about SSA ancestry and in any case would be so ancient that it would be ridicolous to speak about black admixture.

But I insist, SSA ancestry, whatever that means, happens in every fuckin European country
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtzCNlxHBHHgF4v8UX9_2rW0zlJ4GJjn_RbmpdEEiww/edit#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

[FilhoV]

At least 20.

Nice we are a rare group my haplogroup is found in 1 out of 11,000 members of 23&me I think we were large in Numbers until the steppe guys came in

[IncelSlayer]

The study says nothing about SSA ancestry and in any case would be so ancient that it would be ridicolous to speak about black admixture.

But I insist, SSA ancestry, whatever that means, happens in every fuckin European country
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtzCNlxHBHHgF4v8UX9_2rW0zlJ4GJjn_RbmpdEEiww/edit#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

No it doesn't its noise, stop coping.You might have reconquested the moors out of Iberia but they reconquested your gene poll and you can hold your breath in anger until you pass out you can't change history.

[Peterski]

I have seen the Wielbark samples.

They are just screening results, haven't you seen how few SNPs they have? We need to wait until they publish proper genotypes.

[FilhoV]

:pop2::pop2::pop2::pop2:

[Cristiano viejo]

No it doesn't its noise, stop coping.You might have reconquested the moors out of Iberia but they reconquested your gene poll and you can hold your breath in anger until you pass out you can't change history.

Who said nothing about noise? SSA also exist in your zingaro country, baby.

[FilhoV]

You know this is going to be a good thread when he starts calling you baby

[IncelSlayer]

Who said nothing about noise? SSA also exist in your zingaro country, baby.

Iberian babies looked like my avatar during Moorish occupation

[Peterski]

So proof that they marched through Poland. But his autosomal was very Western Euro.

If I'm not mistaken, this Visigothic W6a is actually the only known so far ancient W6a younger than Bronze Age.

Bronze Age W6a samples are from Corded Ware Germany and from Corded Ware Lithuania (Mittnik et. al. 2017):

- W6a sample dated to ~3260-2630 BC, Corded Ware, Plinkaigalis, Lithuania
- W6a sample dated to ~2566-2477 BC, Corded Ware, Esperstedt, Germany

[Cristiano viejo]

Iberian babies looked like my avatar during Moorish occupation

The problem is that Romanian babies look so NOW.

[Peterski]

I'm also expecting my Y-DNA subclade to show up among the Visigoths, as my closest Y-DNA matches are Spanish.

Or among the Celtiberians or Vandals, if not among the Visigoths.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I'm also expecting my Y-DNA subclade to pop out among the Visigoths, as my closest Y-DNA matches are Spanish.

Or among the Celtiberians, if not among the Visigoths.

Is the mtdna list also in the spreadsheet that LuskazM shared? I can't seem to find it. My father's mtdna is U5a1b, most commonly found in North Germany and Norway at the present. I would like to see if any of the samples carried it.

[Imperator Biff]

So Iberians had NA admixture long before the moorish occupation?
Wow.

[Cristiano viejo]

I'm also expecting my Y-DNA subclade to show up among the Visigoths, as my closest Y-DNA matches are Spanish.

Or among the Celtiberians or Vandals, if not among the Visigoths.

Celtiberians better than Visicucks. Remember, these stupid Germanics sucked against Muslims :rolleyes:

[Token]

Peterski worst nightmare:


Genesis EA3865424


Visigoth I12032

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 33.27
2 Atlantic 23.91
3 West_Med 14.67
4 Baltic 8.68
5 Eastern_Euro 7.26
6 East_Med 6.33
7 West_Asian 4.52
8 Siberian 1.36

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 4.5
2 French 5.72
3 South_Dutch 5.82
4 Southwest_English 7.08
5 Southeast_English 8.6
6 North_Dutch 10.21
7 North_German 10.26
8 Danish 10.59
9 Irish 10.78
10 Orcadian 10.87
11 West_Scottish 11.04
12 Norwegian 11.98
13 East_German 12.52
14 Spanish_Galicia 12.62
15 West_Norwegian 12.93
16 Swedish 13.09
17 Spanish_Cataluna 13.26
18 Portuguese 13.86
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.87
20 North_Swedish 15.03

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.6% West_German + 17.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.92
2 88.4% West_German + 11.6% French_Basque @ 2.99
3 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.03
4 79.8% West_German + 20.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.1
5 84.3% West_German + 15.7% Southwest_French @ 3.11
6 84.7% West_German + 15.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.16
7 60% West_German + 40% French @ 3.22
8 58.4% West_Norwegian + 41.6% North_Italian @ 3.23
9 84.9% West_German + 15.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.24
10 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Sardinian @ 3.25

[Peterski]

Is the mtdna list also in the spreadsheet

Yes, one of Iberian Visigoths had W6a:

https://i.imgur.com/eQM1kTg.png

And this is my old mtDNA Wiki Report:

https://i.imgur.com/6RAhKWS.png

[Peterski]

Peterski worst nightmare:

Autosomal means nothing because they marched across entire Europe from Poland to Iberia, and absorbed everything on their way.

What is important is haplogroups, and of course autosomal results of Goths from Poland (Wielbark culture) will be important as well.

[Not a Cop]

Peterski worst nightmare:


Got any ideas on how they became West-German-like en masse? Obviously some Admixture turned them from proto-germanic to that state.

[Damião de Góis]

Yes, one of Iberian Visigoths had W6a:

https://i.imgur.com/eQM1kTg.png


Any J1C1 there? I can't find that excel with the mtDNA on the supplements.

[Imperator Biff]

I've posted this study here much before you and the guy had straight-up SSA ancestry, and he was only one outlier out of hundred of samples from Neolithic Iberia. I doubt you'd like the idea of having direct Sub-Saharan African admixture :laugh:

This isn’t really surprising to me as some neolithic Iberians have been found with typical SSA mitochondrial haplogroups like L3, obviously it couldn’t have just gotten in there by accident.

[Mingle]

Got any ideas on how they became West-German-like en masse? Obviously some Admixture turned them from proto-germanic to that state.

Absorbing some Celts from Central Europe.

[Peterski]

Absorbing some Celts from Central Europe.

If I remember correctly - first, they moved from Scandinavia to the southern Baltic coast. Then they moved from Pomerania to the south along the Vistula River towards the Carpathian Mountains, and then they entered Ukraine and moved towards the Black Sea. Near the Black Sea, they split into Ostrogoths (East Goths) and Visigoths (West Goths) - the latter marched west first.

The Celts they mixed with could be the Lugii in Poland:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281130-Celts-in-Poland

[Damião de Góis]

Found the mtDNA. Just out of curiosity i'm R1b and J1c1, so it's safe to say that this pair is present in Iberia since the Bronze Age.
J1c1 apparently arrived in the Middle to Late Neolithic. As for R1b, it's difficult to identify mine in the table (P-312) but apparently it's here since the Bronze Age.

http://oi64.tinypic.com/sn02vb.jpg

[Peterski]

Visigoth from Spain I12031 - the one who clusters with modern Serbs - has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

This is Balkan subclade E-V13:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about

[Friends of Oliver Society]

There are only 2 pre-Moor North African admixed individuals and 1 BA outlier. The rest(over a dozen) are post-Moor.

This paper didn't do any models on modern Iberians, but one of the 2018 papers on Spain already confirmed double digit numbers with formal models.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/250191v1

What you're speaking of is actually in reference to western Spain. Speaking of Spain as a whole is incorrect. It's already been understood that NA influence in Iberia declines as you go east rather than declining as you go north (as would be expected based on history).


Perhaps surprisingly, north African ancestry does not reflect proximity to north
Africa, or even regions under more extended Muslim control. The highest amounts
of north African ancestry found within Iberia are in the west (11%) including in
Galicia, despite the fact that the region of Galicia as it is defined today (north of the
Miño river), was never under Muslim rule24 and Berber settlements north of the
Douro river were abandoned by 741. This observation is consistent with previous
work using Y-chromosome data12. We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by
later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would
All rights reserved. No reuse allowed without permission.
(which was not peer-reviewed) is the author/funder, who has granted bioRxiv a license to display the preprint in perpetuity.
bioRxiv preprint first posted online Mar. 12, 2018; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/250191. The copyright holder for this preprint
10
also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with
non-Spanish groups more generally. Alternatively, it might be that these patterns
reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local
peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale
expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in
towns and cities10,21

[Peterski]

What you're speaking of is actually in reference to western Spain. Speaking of Spain as a whole is incorrect. It's already been understood that NA influence in Iberia declines as you go east rather than declining as you go north (as would be expected based on history).

(...)

Indeed Galicia has high North African admixture and it is difficult to explain why. However, Galicia also has high North European admixtures at the same time, and this is easier to explain (there were settlements of British/Breton Celts and Germanic Suebi there, among other things).

[Morena]

Indeed Galicia has high North African admixture and it is difficult to explain why. However, Galicia also has high North European admixtures at the same time, and this is easier to explain (there were settlements of British/Breton Celts and Germanic Suebi there, among other things).

This is the reason I reject the simple idea of the Moors. It doesn't explain all the variations and inconsistencies we see. Had it only been the Moors, the admixture would have reflected their stay, and it would have been more homogeneous throughout the peninsula.

[Kamal900]

This is the reason I reject the simple idea of the Moors. It doesn't explain all the variations and inconsistencies we see. Had it only been the Moors, the admixture would have reflected their stay, and it would have been more homogeneous throughout the peninsula.

Viriato had posed an Iberian from the neolithic period, and it seems the sample score some NA admixture which suggests that the NA ancestry among Iberians is very ancient and not recent from the medieval period.

[XenophobicPrussian]

What you're speaking of is actually in reference to western Spain. Speaking of Spain as a whole is incorrect. It's already been understood that NA influence in Iberia declines as you go east rather than declining as you go north (as would be expected based on history).
Well yeah I didn't mean the entirety of Spain, but Castille-Leon, Extremadura, are also double digits, not just Galicia. Murcia, Andalusia, Catalonia have around 7, the rest 4(save for Valencia with 2.6 and Basque/Vasco with none).

The west-east cline doesn't really mean much for whether said admixture came from Moors or something ancient. If it was ancient you'd also expect the same thing, more in the south peaking in Andalusia. There's only 3 samples pre-Moors in this paper with NA admixture, maybe a few more from the neolithic if that wasn't just noise levels, given there's dozens of post-Moor with significant NA admixture, I'd put my money on the vast majority of it coming from the Moors. It being a west-east cline really doesn't have anything to do with it, can be explained by more significant Reconquista in the south or many other things.

[Morena]

Well yeah I didn't mean the entirety of Spain, but Castille-Leon, Extremadura, are also double digits, not just Galicia. Murcia, Andalusia, Catalonia have around 7, the rest 4(save for Valencia with 2.6 and Basque/Vasco with none).

The west-east cline doesn't really mean much for whether said admixture came from Moors or something ancient. If it was ancient you'd also expect the same thing, more in the south peaking in Andalusia. There's only 3 samples pre-Moors in this paper with NA admixture, maybe a few more from the neolithic if that wasn't just noise levels, given there's dozens of post-Moor with significant NA admixture, I'd put my money on the vast majority of it coming from the Moors. It being a west-east cline really doesn't have anything to do with it, can be explained by more significant Reconquista in the south or many other things.

The west/east cline matches the roman occupation of the peninsula much better than the Moorish occupation. See the map bras de v posted up.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Er, I gotta correct myself. There's a lot more than 2 North African admixed pre-Moor samples in this paper, I just don't know how many given they're anywhere from 5th-8th centuries AD, which could still be post-Moor. There's def a lot more than 2 though, but still the post-Moor outnumber the Roman/Visigoth era ones either way. I'm more open to the idea that modern NA admixture came from Roman North African immigrants rather than Moors, but we really need more samples. It's definitely still not neolithic/BA though, everywhere on Iberia was way too homogenous.


Celtiberians better than Visicucks. Remember, these stupid Germanics sucked against Muslims :rolleyes:
lol. Didn't suck against Iberians tho.

The Visigoth Kingdom was formed in 418 and had most of Iberia by 457, how many actual Germanic generals and soldiers do you think they by 711 AD starting out as a small ruling elite? Sorry buddy, that's on the Iberian armies and generals.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Also the J2a. They really did make the trek from the Balkans to Iberia then.
There's that half Romanian half Norwegian user here who clusters near West Germans. Maybe the modern south Balkan genome did already form by then and the West German like Visigoths were halfway mixes between original Norwegian like Visigoths and Balkanites, lol.

Slavs entered the Balkans in the 400s, I thought it was like the 700s. Given that haplogroup, the Serbian like one was most likely a Balkanite.

edit: nvm, Visigoths were already in SW France by 418. Don't think the modern south Balkan genome was formed yet by then.

[Peterski]

Slavs entered the Balkans in the 400s, I thought it was like the 700s.

Depends what you consider Balkans. They did not cross the Danube in the 400s (except for raiding and looting).

This map shows the extent of Slavic settlement around year 500 AD:

https://i0.wp.com/slavicchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/mapa.png?resize=752%2C446

Something about the estimated size of barbarian tribes:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005286961;view=1up;seq=100

[Peterski]

edit: nvm, Visigoths were already in SW France by 418.

Yes in year 418, sources say that there were already some Goths in South-West France.

At the same time archaeology still shows evidence of Wielbark Culture existing in Poland.

Wielbark Culture starts to disappear from archaeological record in Poland only around 450:

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/thesaurus/archaeological-cultures/wielbark-culture-

"Wielbark C. disappears from the archaeological record around mid-5th century"

[Peterski]

Here are some models of ancestry for Visigoth I12032, using both ancient and modern samples:

Visigoth I12032:

First model:

Swedish Gotland - 16%
Britain Welsh - 36%
France Breton - 1%
Bronze Age Iberian - 32%
Portuguese Algarve - 4%
East Med (Druze) - 11%

Alternative:

Anglian Northumbria* - 45%
France Breton - 3%
Bronze Age Iberian - 32%
Spanish Andalusia - 9%
East Med (Druze) - 11%

*Early Medieval Northumbrian sample which was a mixture of Angles and local Insular Celts.

=====

Other Visigoths had significant Pre-Slavic Balkan and North-Eastern European (Balts, Slavs, Finns):

Visigoth I12162:

Southern Denmark - 32%
Germans Rhaetia* - 21%
Pre-Slavic Balkan - 11%
North-East European - 26%
Sardinian (extra EEF) - 8%
South & East Asian - 2%

*Modern Germans from what used to be the Roman province of Rhaetia. Today in South Germany.

Visigoth I12031 (this one had ca. 1/4 of ancestry similar to modern NW and North-Central Italy):

Pre-Slavic Balkan - 26%
Northern Albanian - 13%
Italy Aosta & Lombardy - 25%
North-East European - 21%
North Caucasian - 6%
Spanish Cantabria - 5%
East Med (Druze) - 4%

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Well yeah I didn't mean the entirety of Spain, but Castille-Leon, Extremadura, are also double digits, not just Galicia. Murcia, Andalusia, Catalonia have around 7, the rest 4(save for Valencia with 2.6 and Basque/Vasco with none).

The west-east cline doesn't really mean much for whether said admixture came from Moors or something ancient. If it was ancient you'd also expect the same thing, more in the south peaking in Andalusia. There's only 3 samples pre-Moors in this paper with NA admixture, maybe a few more from the neolithic if that wasn't just noise levels, given there's dozens of post-Moor with significant NA admixture, I'd put my money on the vast majority of it coming from the Moors. It being a west-east cline really doesn't have anything to do with it, can be explained by more significant Reconquista in the south or many other things.

The west-east cline can't just be explained away easily when we consider that the northern strip Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria have NA admixture at the same levels or more than areas that were ruled by the Moors for centuries. These are the regiosn where the Reconquista started. These were the regions the Moors did not settle (Moorish chronicles specifically state Berbers left southern Galicia after a decade or so). A rational explanation is that there was a Neolithic influence that came along the coast (North Africa is closer to western Iberia than eastern). There are rivers that migrants could have used to enter deep into Portugal, Extremadura, and Galicia (unlike in eastern Spain). That doesn't necessarily mean the Moorish invasion didn't have an impact but rather that one was much more relevant than the other (for western Iberia).

Another argument that can put forth is that Moors captured in raids were sent north. The problem with this argument is that the population density from those three regions has always been high, while in the meseta the population density was lower and in more need of people to work the fields but it is a possibility.

This will be cleared up eventually.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Here are some models of ancestry for Visigoth I12032, using both ancient and modern samples:

Visigoth I12032:

First model:

Swedish Gotland - 16%
Britain Welsh - 36%
France Breton - 1%
Bronze Age Iberian - 32%
Portuguese Algarve - 4%
East Med (Druze) - 11%

Alternative:

Anglian Northumbria* - 45%
France Breton - 3%
Bronze Age Iberian - 32%
Spanish Andalusia - 9%
East Med (Druze) - 11%

*Early Medieval Northumbrian sample which was a mixture of Angles and local Insular Celts.

=====

Other Visigoths had significant Pre-Slavic Balkan and North-Eastern European (Balts, Slavs, Finns):

Visigoth I12162:

Southern Denmark - 32%
Germans Rhaetia* - 21%
Pre-Slavic Balkan - 11%
North-East European - 26%
Sardinian (extra EEF) - 8%
South & East Asian - 2%

*Modern Germans from what used to be the Roman province of Rhaetia. Today in South Germany.

Visigoth I12031 (this one had ca. 1/4 of ancestry similar to modern NW and North-Central Italy):

Pre-Slavic Balkan - 26%
Northern Albanian - 13%
Italy Aosta & Lombardy - 25%
North-East European - 21%
North Caucasian - 6%
Spanish Cantabria - 5%
East Med (Druze) - 4%
You do know these GEDMatch oracles are meaningless right? Run it with nMonte g25 and it'd reject almost all of those.

[Peterski]

Visigoth I12034:

First model:

Bronze Age Iberian - 74%
Spanish Andalusia - 9%
Portugal Algarve - 1%
Anglians Northumbria* - 4%
English East Anglia** - 6%
German Lower Silesia - 4%
Swiss Italians - 1%
Austrians Carinthia - 1%

*Early Medieval North Anglian sample
** Modern English from East Anglia

Alternative:

Bronze Age Iberian - 76%
Spanish Andalusia - 6%
Portugal Algarve - 1%
English East Anglia - 10%
Insular Celtic (Scottish) - 1%
Early Medieval Swabia - 2%
Ukrainian Western - 3%
Austrian Carinthia - 1%


Run it with nMonte g25 and it'd reject almost all of those.

Most of those regions are not even in Global25, they are my custom samples.

[XenophobicPrussian]

The west-east cline can't just be explained away easily when we consider that the northern strip Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria have NA admixture at the same levels or more than areas that were ruled by the Moors for centuries. These are the regiosn where the Reconquista started. These were the regions the Moors did not settle (Moorish chronicles specifically state Berbers left southern Galicia after a decade or so). A rational explanation is that there was a Neolithic influence that came along the coast (coast hopping). There are rivers that migrants could have used to enter deep into Portugal, Extremadura, and Galicia. That doesn't necessarily mean the Moorish invasion didn't have an impact but rather that one was much more relevant than the other.

Another argument that can put forth is that Moors captured in raids were sent north. The problem with this argument is that the population density from those three regions has always been high, while in the meseta the population density was lower and in more need of people to work the fields but it is a possibility.

This will be cleared up eventually.
Can also just be inter-Iberia migration. There's also the potential impact of the Barbary pirates, which was equally an Atlantic operation that even reached the North Atlantic and the Americas. Given the high population density of W. Iberia, it is probably unlikely, but maybe it was enough to put them over the rest of Iberia.

Again though, neolithic is out of the question based on Portuguese neolithic, copper age, bronze age samples, unless they got really unlucky with sampling. It's going to be Moors or Rome giving Iberia the finger and letting North Africans migrate during the empire.

[Peterski]

And the last one:

Visigoth I12163:

Swedish Gotland - 29.4%
Danish Southern Jutland - 25.6%
Norway Finnmark - 3.4%
German Lower Saxony - 1.8%
North-East English - 4.2%
Spanish Castilla Leon - 18.8%
Portuguese - 1.6%
East Med (Lebanese Shia) - 8%
North Caucasian - 7.2%

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Indeed Galicia has high North African admixture and it is difficult to explain why. However, Galicia also has high North European admixtures at the same time, and this is easier to explain (there were settlements of British/Breton Celts and Germanic Suebi there, among other things).

On Polako's test (I forget which) my mother is an outlier for both north African and northern European. She has far more of both than the average Galician.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Can also just be inter-Iberia migration. There's also the potential impact of the Barbary pirates, which was equally an Atlantic operation that even reached the North Atlantic and the Americas. Given the high population density of W. Iberia, it is probably unlikely, but maybe it was enough to put them over the rest of Iberia.

Again though, neolithic is out of the question based on Portuguese neolithic, copper age, bronze age samples, unless they got really unlucky with sampling. It's going to be Moors or Rome giving Iberia the finger and letting North Africans migrate during the empire.

Barbary pirates took captives for the market in north Africa. They didn't settle lands. Also, we're speaking of an era when Spain as well as other European nations had the ability to put large armies on the field. To think barbary pirates could create settlements in Iberia or anywhere else without being challenged (and obviously such events would have been recorded) and could have any demographic impact is absurd.

Intra-Iberian migration would be revealed by historical records. The only thing that comes close to it is that we know children (and some adults) were sent to north Western Spain after the Morisco rebellion in the early 17th century failed. Most Moriscos were kicked out of Spain but a 1/4th or so were not. Although I believe in Valencia it was pretty much all of them (I forget).

I don't know about the third point.

[Peterski]

Andalusia has very high sub-regional genetic diversity and also high diversity between individuals.

Maybe in some parts of Andalusia there are people with high North African. Around Granada I guess.

There was strong repopulation by settlers from Northern Iberia to Southern Iberia during the Reconquista.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Andalusia has very high sub-regional genetic diversity and also high diversity between individuals.

Maybe in some parts of Andalusia there are people with high North African. Around Granada I guess.

There was strong repopulation by settlers from Northern Iberia to Southern Iberia during the Reconquista.

That reminds me: I remember reading of specific families that were Moriscos and wealthy who were allowed to stay in Granada. These families were prominent up until the 18th century in that city (perhaps longer but I do remember reading up to the 18th century). Obvioulsy they wouldn't be referred to as Moriscos anymore. They only married among themselves. The common Morisco would not have been allowed to stay in Granada because it posed a danger. This was the 2nd revolt of Moriscos within 100 years and it was very bloody. To spread the few Moriscos that were allowed to stay (the commoners who couldn't buy favors but for whatever reason weren't kicked out like their neighbors. I suspect they were artisans. Moriscos were a highly skilled population) around would keep a third rebellion from happening and the hope was 'real' Christians could keep tabs on them.

[Peterski]

That reminds me: I remember reading of specific families that were Moriscos and wealthy who were allowed to stay in Granada. These families were prominent up until the 18th century in that city (perhaps longer but I do remember reading up to the 18th century). Obvioulsy they wouldn't be referred to as Moriscos anymore. They only married among themselves. The common Morisco would not have been allowed to stay in Granada because it posed a danger. This was the 2nd revolt of Moriscos within 100 years and it was very bloody. To spread the few Moriscos that were allowed to stay (the commoners who couldn't buy favors but for whatever reason weren't kicked out like their neighbors. I suspect they were artisans. Moriscos were a highly skilled population) around would keep a third rebellion from happening and the hope was 'real' Christians could keep tabs on them.

I've heard that many Iberians emigrated to Oran after 1492 AD - but I suppose they were mostly Moriscos and Jews, right?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Can someone post Portuguese neolithic, copper age, bronze age sample results?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I've heard that many Iberians emigrated to Oran after 1492 AD - but I suppose they were mostly Moriscos and Jews, right?

Oran was held by Spain for roughly three centuries but I don't think there were many Spaniards who went there. Based on what I read about what was said about Spanish (and Portuguese) territories in north Africa in general it wasn't a popular destination. It has to compete with the American colonies for attention. At least in the Americas they wouldn't have to worry about one day having to flee from an invading army and that would always be a possibility in North Africa.

Up until the 20th century there were families who claimed pure descent (or mostly pure descent) from Moriscos in north Africa. I think Coon talks about them if I remember correctly.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Can someone post Portuguese neolithic, copper age, bronze age sample results?
They're from this paper: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/31cf/4633dc9c668840cde2a5f1908b2c660337ea.pdf
(admixture graph on page 8)

Kind of looks like they do have a little bit of something there, but I don't think so because 1) other populations like Irish or German farmers have a bit of that pink/blue, 2) North Africans aren't on there so we can't even know what that colour is, 3) it isn't enough to explain the high amount in modern west Iberians. Also checked Genetiker's admixture runs and there wasn't any SSA at all.

I can't do anything for you with GEDMatch but I can run some models with nMonte/g25:


"Portuguese:Average",
"fit": 2.1927,
"Beaker_The_Netherlands_Averaged": 48.33,
"Barcin_N_Averaged": 37.5,
"Moroccan_Averaged": 10,
"WHG_Averaged": 4.17,


"Portugal_MN:Average",
"fit": 4.7354,
"Barcin_N_Averaged": 77.5,
"WHG_Averaged": 22.5,
"Beaker_The_Netherlands_Averaged": 0,
"Moroccan_Averaged": 0,


"Portugal_LNCA:Average",
"fit": 4.6283,
"Barcin_N_Averaged": 76.67,
"WHG_Averaged": 23.33,
"Beaker_The_Netherlands_Averaged": 0,
"Moroccan_Averaged": 0,


"Portugal_MBA:Average",
"fit": 4.0013,
"Barcin_N_Averaged": 59.17,
"Beaker_The_Netherlands_Averaged": 24.17,
"WHG_Averaged": 16.67,
"Moroccan_Averaged": 0,

Also did Iberomaurusian instead of Moroccan(I know I should've used Tarofalt/Morocco neolithic, g25 doesn't have them), the ancients also got 0.

[Lucas]

If I'm not mistaken, this Visigothic W6a is actually the only known so far ancient W6a younger than Bronze Age.

Bronze Age W6a samples are from Corded Ware Germany and from Corded Ware Lithuania (Mittnik et. al. 2017):

- W6a sample dated to ~3260-2630 BC, Corded Ware, Plinkaigalis, Lithuania
- W6a sample dated to ~2566-2477 BC, Corded Ware, Esperstedt, Germany

So it isn't Proto-Savic haplo but Corded... It means nothing that you have it and Visigoth. He can acquired it elsewhere.

[Ibericus]

Well yeah I didn't mean the entirety of Spain, but Castille-Leon, Extremadura, are also double digits, not just Galicia. Murcia, Andalusia, Catalonia have around 7, the rest 4(save for Valencia with 2.6 and Basque/Vasco with none).

The west-east cline doesn't really mean much for whether said admixture came from Moors or something ancient. If it was ancient you'd also expect the same thing, more in the south peaking in Andalusia. There's only 3 samples pre-Moors in this paper with NA admixture, maybe a few more from the neolithic if that wasn't just noise levels, given there's dozens of post-Moor with significant NA admixture, I'd put my money on the vast majority of it coming from the Moors. It being a west-east cline really doesn't have anything to do with it, can be explained by more significant Reconquista in the south or many other things.
There is no way 7% in Catalonia, they more like in the 3-4% range :

[1] "distance%=2.4903 / distance=0.024903"
Spanish_Cataluna
Iberia_MN 57.2
Yamnaya_Kalmykia 31.2
Anatolia_BA 7.85
Moroccan 3.75

[Pubiczar]

And this one, probably local from Balkans (Mesia or Dacia) taken with Goths.

Visigoth I12031

Kit BA8274765

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 20.9
2 Atlantic 18.91
3 Baltic 15.9
4 West_Med 11.29
5 East_Med 10.98
6 Eastern_Euro 10.41
7 West_Asian 8.33
8 Red_Sea 1.71
9 Siberian 1.16
10 South_Asian 0.29
11 Southeast_Asian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 3.54
2 Romanian 6.44
3 Austrian 6.6
4 Hungarian 6.79
5 Moldavian 8.66
6 Croatian 8.91
7 Bulgarian 9.49
8 East_German 9.83
9 South_Dutch 13.05
10 French 13.19
11 West_German 13.54
12 Ukrainian_Lviv 14.62
13 South_Polish 14.69
14 North_Italian 15.05
15 Ukrainian 15.53
16 Greek_Thessaly 15.7
17 North_German 15.76
18 Spanish_Galicia 16.07
19 Spanish_Cataluna 16.48
20 Portuguese 16.66

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% Bulgarian + 31.9% Norwegian @ 1.59
2 67.6% Bulgarian + 32.4% Swedish @ 1.7
3 75% Romanian + 25% Danish @ 1.75
4 75.3% Romanian + 24.7% North_Dutch @ 1.79
5 66.9% Bulgarian + 33.1% North_Swedish @ 1.79
6 76.4% Romanian + 23.6% Norwegian @ 1.83
7 70.4% Bulgarian + 29.6% West_Norwegian @ 1.86
8 71.7% Romanian + 28.3% North_German @ 1.86
9 78.8% East_German + 21.2% Cyprian @ 1.88
10 77% Romanian + 23% West_Scottish @ 1.94

Eurogenes K15

Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent1North_Sea20.902Atlantic18.913Ba ltic15.904West_Med11.295East_Med10.986Eastern_Euro 10.417West_Asian8.338Red_Sea1.719Siberian1.16

Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Serbian @ 4.044537
2 Romanian @ 7.507473
3 Austrian @ 7.642602
4 Hungarian @ 7.844242
5 Moldavian @ 10.027383
6 Croatian @ 10.283150
7 Bulgarian @ 11.087789
8 East_German @ 11.548052
9 French @ 15.263886
10 South_Dutch @ 15.265221
11 West_German @ 15.817443
12 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 16.900995
13 South_Polish @ 16.983875
14 North_Italian @ 17.132553
15 Ukrainian @ 17.990330
16 Spanish_Galicia @ 18.233322
17 Greek_Thessaly @ 18.283583
18 North_German @ 18.406475
19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 18.886435
20 Portuguese @ 18.919458

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% East_German @ 2.768692


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Croatian +25% North_Dutch +25% South_Italian @ 1.309543


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Estonian + Southwest_English @ 1.060145
2 Bulgarian + Greek + Orcadian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.118881
3 Bulgarian + Greek + Orcadian + South_Polish @ 1.172742
4 Bulgarian + Greek + Orcadian + Ukrainian @ 1.181323
5 Greek + Romanian + Southeast_English + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.187762
6 Bulgarian + Hungarian + Romanian + South_Dutch @ 1.214304
7 Moldavian + South_Italian + South_Polish + Southeast_English @ 1.248098
8 Austrian + Central_Greek + East_German + Hungarian @ 1.277154
9 Austrian + Bulgarian + Romanian + West_German @ 1.308499
10 Greek + Romanian + Ukrainian_Lviv + West_Scottish @ 1.309023
11 Croatian + Croatian + North_Dutch + South_Italian @ 1.309543
12 Hungarian + South_Dutch + South_Italian + South_Polish @ 1.320259
13 Estonian + Italian_Abruzzo + Romanian + South_Dutch @ 1.330929
14 Croatian + Greek + Romanian + West_Norwegian @ 1.333502
15 Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + South_Polish + Southeast_English @ 1.333820
16 Bulgarian + Greek + Ukrainian_Lviv + West_Scottish @ 1.344528
17 Austrian + Greek + Romanian + Swedish @ 1.352882
18 Bulgarian + Estonian + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Dutch @ 1.357361
19 Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + North_Dutch + Ukrainian @ 1.372801
20 Greek + Irish + Romanian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.377004

Eurogenes K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 33.74
2 Baltic 25.75
3 East_Med 13.81
4 West_Med 13.53
5 West_Asian 8.11
6 Red_Sea 1.91
7 Siberian 1.50


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarian @ 7.262651
2 Serbian @ 7.606535
3 Austrian @ 8.018989
4 East_German @ 10.836503
5 Romanian @ 11.442839
6 West_German @ 11.559615
7 Moldavian @ 12.855834
8 Croatian @ 13.131477
9 South_Dutch @ 13.483461
10 French @ 14.392946
11 Bulgarian @ 14.895240
12 North_German @ 17.027294
13 South_Polish @ 18.528797
14 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 19.421492
15 North_Italian @ 19.550299
16 Southeast_English @ 19.582483
17 Danish @ 19.795553
18 Portuguese @ 20.149174
19 North_Dutch @ 20.182283
20 Spanish_Galicia @ 20.523632

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek_Thessaly +50% North_Swedish @ 2.369236


Obviously a half Bulgarian like or Thessalian like , half German or Swedish like...

Also don't forget that the Visigoths weren't only in Dacia and Moesia but in Macedonia, Greece, Epirus and the Western Balkans as well...

Also this sample turned out E-V13, this and his autosomaly results are very big indicator of recent Balkan ancestry and most importantly as it seems the Bulgarian or the Thessalian autosomaly makeup was already in place by the time the Visigoths had crossed the Balkans.

[Peterski]

Visigoth I12031's similarity to Serbians is quite accidental, he was a more complex mixture than that.

It is obvious in K36 - he is not that similar (only 70-something % in K36 map) to Serbs. Similarity to Serbs in some calcs results from fact that he had Pre-Slavic Balkan, North-East European (but not exclusively Slavic), North Italian, and some East Med ancestry. And also minor Native Iberian.

He plots with Serbs in K15, but not in K36 and not in some other calculators (I suggest checking his DNA Land).

This is similar story as with Bronze Age Silesian, who plots with modern Poles in PCA but not in Oracles:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280027-Bronze-Age-Silesia-GEDmatch

[Vasconcelos]

If it was ancient you'd also expect the same thing, more in the south peaking in Andalusia.

You are completely ignoring the fact the Reconquista was followed by repopulation. We already knew that from historical sources, but it's blatantly obvious now.

[Peterski]

Similarity of some of the Visigoths to West Germans is caused by their Non-Germanic admixture. They were not fully Germanic.

Their Germanic ancestry was like modern Swedes (especially Gotland), Danes, like ancient Angles, and like Schleswig Germans.

However, in addition to their Danish-like Germanic DNA, they also had Non-Germanic admixtures (see my models posted before).

[XenophobicPrussian]

Visigoth I12031's similarity to Serbians is quite accidental, he was a more complex mixture than that.

It is obvious in K36 - he is not that similar (only 70-something % in K36 map) to Serbs. Similarity to Serbs in some calcs results from fact that he had Pre-Slavic Balkan, North-East European (but not exclusively Slavic), North Italian, and some East Med ancestry. And also minor Native Iberian.

He plots with Serbs in K15, but not in K36 and not in some other calculators (I suggest checking his DNA Land).

This is similar story as with Bronze Age Silesian, who plots with modern Poles in PCA but not in Oracles:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280027-Bronze-Age-Silesia-GEDmatch
Yeah I agree with this. You can also get something Serbian-like from Ukrainian Scythians, East Meds and Scandos, all of whom Visigoths probably had access to. Ukraine/northern Romania has 5-10% EV13.

[Peterski]

It means nothing that you have it and Visigoth. He can acquired it elsewhere.

So why modern Germanic-speakers don't have it and it is the most frequent in Poland and other East-Central European countries?

Let me also remind you the study Juras 2014, which found out that there is continuity of maternal haplogroups in the area of Poland from Wielbark Culture times to modern times (and my individual case fits perfectly in this narrative and "confirms" these findings by Juras about some mtDNA continuity):

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?i...al.pone.0110839 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110839)

Maybe Migration Period in Poland was sex-biased with Y-DNA haplogroups getting replaced more than mitochondrial haplogroups.

[Token]

Comparison between modern-day Spaniards and Celtiberians. A lot more East Mediterranean admix and less Northern European in Spaniards. Some North African is already present in Celtiberians. I think North African in present-day Iberians is half Moorish and half from an earlier source.

[1] "distance%=1.5554"
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Beaker_The_Netherlands,40
Iberia_North_CA,34
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19.2
Mozabite,6.8

[1] "distance%=1.9752"
Iberia_North_IA

Beaker_The_Netherlands,48.8
Iberia_North_CA,45.4
Mozabite,3.2
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,2.6

[Peterski]

So, the most Germanic of all five Visigoths with high coverage was I12163.

Here is my model for this sample (not saying it is the best possible one), he was 2/3 Germanic + 1/3 South Euro:

Swedish (Gotland) - 29.4%
Danish (Jutland) - 25.6%
Norway Finnmark - 3.4%
German Lower Saxony - 1.8%
North-East English - 4.2%
Spanish Castilla Leon - 18.8%
Portuguese - 1.6%
East Med (Lebanese Shia) - 8%
North Caucasian - 7.2%

Visigoth I12032 had significant Celtic admixture (Welsh-like and Breton-like) as well as Scandinavian Germanic.

In general, I12032 was 1/2 Celto-Germanic and 1/2 Southern European (mostly Iberian but also some East Med).

Interestingly, at least two Visigoths had Paleo-Balkan ancestry. Apparently they absorbed it on their way to Iberia:

Visigoth I12162 can be modeled as 1/3 Danish or North German (Schleswig), 1/5 South German from former Rhaetic-speaking areas (these South Germans are far from being pure Germanic), 1/4 North-East European (either Finnic, Baltic or Slavic - probably all three), over 10% Pre-Slavic Balkan (Bronze Age Croatia, Iron Age Bulgaria) and about 10% Sardinian (extra EEF admixture, likely also absorbed in the Balkans). He also had minor Asian admixture (from Huns etc.?).

Visigoth I12031 - this one had around 1/4 Paleo-Balkan ancestry, also 1/4 North Italian (North-West - like Aosta, and North-Central - like Lombardy; maybe some French Gaulish too), 10% similar to modern North Albanians (so also Balkan likely), 1/5 to 1/4 North-East European (including some Slavic apparently, but not exclusively), 6% North Caucasus (Alans?), 5% local Iberian and 5% East Med (Druze).

Visigoth I12034 - this one was ca. 80-85% Native Iberian, 10-15% Germanic (with some Celtic), 5% Slavic.

[Ibericus]

Comparison between modern-day Spaniards and Celtiberians. A lot more East Mediterranean admix and less Northern European in Spaniards. Some North African is already present in Celtiberians. I think North African in present-day Iberians is half Moorish and half from an earlier source.

[1] "distance%=1.5554"
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Beaker_The_Netherlands,40
Iberia_North_CA,34
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19.2
Mozabite,6.8

[1] "distance%=1.9752"
Iberia_North_IA

Beaker_The_Netherlands,48.8
Iberia_North_CA,45.4
Mozabite,3.2
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,2.6

If we use a more EEF source, otherwise the north-african increases to compensate for it. Instead of Iberia_North_CA if we use Iberia_Central_CA :


[1] "distance%=1.7238 / distance=0.017238"

Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Beaker_The_Netherlands 40.5
Iberia_Central_CA 35.2
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta 18.6
Mozabite 5.7


Even more Neolithic (Iberia_MN):


[1] "distance%=1.8639 / distance=0.018639"
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Beaker_The_Netherlands 41.5
Iberia_MN 35.8
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta 17.4
Mozabite 5.3

[Token]

The fit worsen significantly though. Iberia_North_CA seems to fit better the Iberian EEF-WHG ratio.

Same model with Castilla y León, one of the most North African admixed region only behind Extremadura and Galicia.

[1] "distance%=2.1691"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Beaker_The_Netherlands,43.2
Iberia_Central_CA,32
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,13.6
Mozabite,11.2

[1] "distance%=2.0253"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Beaker_The_Netherlands,42.6
Iberia_North_CA,31
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,14.4
Mozabite,12

[Cristiano viejo]

lol. Didn't suck against Iberians tho.

The Visigoth Kingdom was formed in 418 and had most of Iberia by 457, how many actual Germanic generals and soldiers do you think they by 711 AD starting out as a small ruling elite? Sorry buddy, that's on the Iberian armies and generals.

Are you joking or what? it is very well documented at least they (the elite) were pure Visigoths by blood/ancestry. They were retarded, traitors between themselves, naive, coward and weak. Reconquista was done by Celtiberians while Visigoths fled as rats to North Spain and South France. FACT.

I feel shame that such stupid people left their blood, even in small amounts, among us :(

[Peterski]

Comparison between modern-day Spaniards and Celtiberians.

This shows that already Celtiberians had few percent North African.

And that was before Carthaginian settlements (not only before Moors).

[Peterski]

Beaker_The_Netherlands was ruled out by the authors themselves, quote:

"Finding a Bell Beaker-related group as a plausible source for the introduction of steppe
ancestry into Iberia is consistent with the fact that some of the individuals in the Iberia_CA_Stp
group were excavated in BellBeaker associated contexts (9). Models with Iberia_CA and other Bell
Beaker groups such as France_Beaker (P-value=7.31E-06), Netherlands_Beaker
(P-value=1.03E-03) and England_Beaker (P-value=4.86E-02) failed, probably because they
have slightly higher proportions of steppe ancestry than the true source population. We can also discard
Beaker complex individuals from the island of Britain as a plausible directly source for
the steppe ancestry in Iberia because all the analyzed males with enough resolution in this
group are derived for R1b-L21, a SNP for which Iberian males are ancestral."

So we should try models with other Beaker groups - that the authors forgot to test.

[Token]

Beaker_The_Netherlands was ruled out by the authors themselves, quote:

"Finding a Bell Beaker-related group as a plausible source for the introduction of steppe
ancestry into Iberia is consistent with the fact that some of the individuals in the Iberia_CA_Stp
group were excavated in BellBeaker associated contexts (9). Models with Iberia_CA and other Bell
Beaker groups such as France_Beaker (P-value=7.31E-06), Netherlands_Beaker
(P-value=1.03E-03) and England_Beaker (P-value=4.86E-02) failed, probably because they
have slightly higher proportions of steppe ancestry than the true source population. We can also discard
Beaker complex individuals from the island of Britain as a plausible directly source for
the steppe ancestry in Iberia because all the analyzed males with enough resolution in this
group are derived for R1b-L21, a SNP for which Iberian males are ancestral."

I'm just using Beaker_The_Netherlands to represent generic Northern European input, it shouldn't be taken literally.

[Peterski]

I'm just using Beaker_The_Netherlands to represent generic Northern European input, it shouldn't be taken literally.

Yeah but maybe the fit will be better if you use another regional Beaker group. Try something Central European.

The oldest currently known sample of R1b-DF27 is from [Eastern] German Beakers, not from the Netherlands:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197353-Italo-Celtic-Y-DNA-lineages-in-ancient-DNA

Sample I0806, Quedlinburg, Bell Beaker culture, 2431-2150 BC, R1b-DF27

[Token]

Okay, so summing up the situation in present-day Iberia:

1. Iberians are still mostly Celtiberians/Iron Age Iberians with heavy Roman contribution and some North African from Phoenician-Punic and Moorish settlements which decreases as you go east towards País Vasco.

2. Iberians got pretty much zero Germanic admixture, Visigoths were a ruling elite.

3. Basques are basically unaltered Iron Age Iberians who were also less impacted by Urnfield colonization (Celts), as evidenced by their lower IE ancestry compared to IE-speaking Iberians.

[Peterski]

I actually also doubt that only Dutch Beakers were ancestral to British Beakers.

Another major center of Beaker culture was in Brittany - and those Beakers could also be ancestral (at least partially) to British Beakers.

The problem is that so far nobody bothered to collect DNA from Breton Beakers.

=====

See, we have no DNA from Brittany Beakers:

https://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/7.44165.1494945553!/image/nature-bell-beaker-map-18-may-17-online.png_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/nature-bell-beaker-map-18-may-17-online.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg/800px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png

[Cristiano viejo]

This shows that already Celtiberians had few percent North African.

And that was before Carthaginian settlements (not only before Moors).

This.

[Peterski]

3. Basques are basically unaltered Iron Age Iberians who were also less impacted by Urnfield colonization (Celts), as evidenced by their lower IE ancestry compared to IE-speaking Iberians.

Basques are kind of altered but by genetic drift (a bit like modern Icelanders, who were also altered by drift) and by recent isolation (endogamy), not by admixture. But there are Spanish Non-Basque people from several other regions (La Rioja, Cantabria, Navarra, Soria, probably Burgos) who are also very much like Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age Iberians, and are not affected by this drift and isolation as much as Basques.

[Peterski]

2. Iberians got pretty much zero Germanic admixture, Visigoths were a ruling elite.

I think this is an exaggeration, just like the idea that 100% of Iberian Y-DNA was replaced by Beakers is an exaggeration too.

Also I remember your thread where you modeled Iberians with Global25 as heavily Germanic:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264321-How-much-Celto-Germanic-are-Iberians-and-North-Italians

"[1] "distance%=1.4002"

Portuguese

Beaker_Iberia,49.4
Anatolia_BA,15.6
England_Anglo-Saxon,13.6
Mozabite,11.2
Hallstatt_Bylany,10.2

[1] "distance%=1.7954"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Beaker_Iberia,47
England_Anglo-Saxon,19.8
Anatolia_BA,13.6
Mozabite,11.2
Hallstatt_Bylany,8.4"

^^^
So you no longer think those models are valid?

=====

By the way Polako says that the Ancient Italian paper is also coming soon.

[Aren]

Comparison between modern-day Spaniards and Celtiberians. A lot more East Mediterranean admix and less Northern European in Spaniards. Some North African is already present in Celtiberians. I think North African in present-day Iberians is half Moorish and half from an earlier source.

[1] "distance%=1.5554"
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Beaker_The_Netherlands,40
Iberia_North_CA,34
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19.2
Mozabite,6.8

[1] "distance%=1.9752"
Iberia_North_IA

Beaker_The_Netherlands,48.8
Iberia_North_CA,45.4
Mozabite,3.2
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,2.6

My thoughts aswell. Western Iberia might've hade stronger NA admix already pre-Moorish period(probably from the Roman rule) and then they received a bit more with Moors whilst Eastern Andalucians and other South Iberians drifted slightly away from Western Iberia with the reconquista.

I'm still getting some small amount of Scandinavian/Germanic for most Iberians. What source are you using btw?
Another interesting point is that it doesn't really matter what kind of IA Aegan/East Med source one uses, the runs look basically the same. Indiciating that the East Med area(+ southern half of Italy probably) was pretty homogeneous.

"distance%=1.4909"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,65.8
Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren,14
Nordic_IA,11
Mozabite,9.2

"distance%=1.4138"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,65
Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1,17.4
Mozabite,9.2
Nordic_IA,8.4

"distance%=1.4164"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,55.4
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,18.6
Nordic_IA,15.4
Mozabite,10.6

[Token]

So you no longer think those models are valid?

Yes. We lacked post BA Iberian samples at this time. Now i'm convinced that the additional layer of Northern European came with the Urnfielders and Celtic speech.

[Token]

I'm still getting some small amount of Scandinavian/Germanic for most Iberians. What source are you using btw?
[1] "distance%=1.682"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,59
Iberia_North_IA,31.4
Mozabite,9.6

Any Germanic gets completely discarded here. Maybe Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES was Visigothic admixed? This is how the site is described:

The impact of
mobility from the central/eastern Mediterranean during the Classical period is also evident
in 10 individuals from the 7th to 8th century CE
site of L'Esquerda in the northeast, who show
a shift from the Iron Age population in the
direction of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig.
1D) that accounts for approximately one-quarter
of their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17). The same
shift is also observed in present-day Iberians
outside the Basque area and is plausibly a
consequence of the Roman presence in the peninsula, which had a profound cultural impact
and, according to our data, a substantial genetic
impact too.

[Peterski]

[1] "distance%=1.682"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,59
Iberia_North_IA,31.4
Mozabite,9.6

Any Germanic gets completely discarded here. Maybe Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES was Visigothic admixed?

Probably Visigothic admixed considering these are samples from 600s-700s and Visigoths were in the same region already around/before 500 AD.

[Token]

Probably Visigothic admixed considering these are samples from 600s-700s and Visigoths were in the same region already around/before 500 AD.

The qpAdm run in the paper detects none, see Figure 2C page 4: https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf

[Dick]

There's that half Romanian half Norwegian user here who clusters near West Germans. Maybe the modern south Balkan genome did already form by then and the West German like Visigoths were halfway mixes between original Norwegian like Visigoths and Balkanites, lol.

Slavs entered the Balkans in the 400s, I thought it was like the 700s. Given that haplogroup, the Serbian like one was most likely a Balkanite.

edit: nvm, Visigoths were already in SW France by 418. Don't think the modern south Balkan genome was formed yet by then.
Do you mean modern south slavs? I don’t think so

[Aren]

[1] "distance%=1.682"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,59
Iberia_North_IA,31.4
Mozabite,9.6

Any Germanic gets completely discarded here. Maybe Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES was Visigothic admixed? This is how the site is described:

The impact of
mobility from the central/eastern Mediterranean during the Classical period is also evident
in 10 individuals from the 7th to 8th century CE
site of L'Esquerda in the northeast, who show
a shift from the Iron Age population in the
direction of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig.
1D) that accounts for approximately one-quarter
of their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17). The same
shift is also observed in present-day Iberians
outside the Basque area and is plausibly a
consequence of the Roman presence in the peninsula, which had a profound cultural impact
and, according to our data, a substantial genetic
impact too.

Probably so.

"distance%=2.0634"

Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES

Iberia_North_IA,58.4
Nordic_IA,23.4
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,13.4
Mozabite,4.8

Other areas

"distance%=2.3787"

Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE

Iberia_North_IA,48.8
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,28.4
Mozabite,22.8
Nordic_IA,0

"distance%=1.4517"

Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE

Iberia_North_IA,50.6
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,25
Mozabite,24.4
Nordic_IA,0

Modern southeast Iberians

"distance%=1.5846"

Spanish_Murcia

Iberia_North_IA,66
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19
Mozabite,7.8
Nordic_IA,7.2

[Token]

Probably so.

"distance%=2.0634"

Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES

Iberia_North_IA,58.4
Nordic_IA,23.4
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,13.4
Mozabite,4.8

Other areas

"distance%=2.3787"

Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE

Iberia_North_IA,48.8
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,28.4
Mozabite,22.8
Nordic_IA,0

"distance%=1.4517"

Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE

Iberia_North_IA,50.6
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,25
Mozabite,24.4
Nordic_IA,0

Modern southeast Iberians

"distance%=1.5846"

Spanish_Murcia

Iberia_North_IA,66
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19
Mozabite,7.8
Nordic_IA,7.2

One with Visigoths, excluding this sample and isolating East Med admix. Fits very nicely.

[1] "distance%=1.4763"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,53.2
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,25
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,11.4
Mozabite,10.4

[Peterski]

"10 individuals from the 7th to 8th century CE
site of L'Esquerda in the northeast, who show
a shift from the Iron Age population in the
direction of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig.
1D) that accounts for approximately one-quarter
of their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17)."

^^^
Ironically, that shift towards Italians and Greeks could also be caused by mixing with Visigoths.

Because 4 of 5 Visigoths had some South-East European and/or Eastern Mediterranean ancestry:

I12163 - few % East Med (and few % North Caucasus: Alans?)
I12032 - around 10% East Med / Levantine
I12162 - ca. 1/10 Paleo-Balkan, ca. 1/10 Sardinian (extra EEF)
I12031 - 1/3+ Balkan, 1/4 N. Italian, 4% E. Med, 6% N. Caucasus

Visigoths brought to Iberia both Germanic ancestry and South-East European (Paleo-Balkan) ancestry.

As for Levantine / East Med influence, maybe it predated Visigoths. North Caucasus could be from Alans.

[Token]

qpAdm is not that good for historical period ancestry as it largely ignores ethnic specific drift, so it is not surprising that it could have let the Visigothic pass unperceived.

[Peterski]

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,25

That is average of all Visigoths? Only these 3 should be used, and especially the first one (I12163):

I12163 - the most Germanic one IMO
I12032
I12162

The remaining two were not Germanic in terms of ancestry (maybe several percent but not more).

This one:

I12031 - likely some kind of Non-Germanic population(s) absorbed by Goths before entering Iberia

[Aren]

One with Visigoths, excluding this sample and isolating East Med admix. Fits very nicely.

[1] "distance%=1.4763"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,53.2
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,25
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,11.4
Mozabite,10.4

It's gonna be difficult to tell apart Roman from Greek admixture, but going by uniparental markers it seems both admixtures are present in modern Iberians.
There's some kind of consensus among many members here that Romans and Greeks didn't contribute much to the genepool of modern southern Europeans, and especially Iberians are always pointed out as not having any Roman admixture at all. But that's quite far from the truth.

[Dick]

Puntdnal k15 of the Serbian-like Visigoth


1 NE_European 49.85
2 Mediterranean 29.9
3 Caucasian 10.02
4 SW_Asian 5.68
5 Siberian 2.12
6 Horn_Of_Africa 1.78
7 Beringian 0.56
8 E_Asian 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_German 5.33
2 Serbian 5.67
3 Croatian 5.78
4 Utahn_White 5.83
5 French 6.35
6 Hungarian 6.49
7 Austrian 6.81
8 Irish 7.42
9 Slovenian 7.46
10 English 7.59
11 Orcadian 7.7
12 Bosnian 8.85
13 North_German 9.23
14 Scottish 9.23
15 Macedonian 9.71
16 Norwegian 10.31
17 Romanian 10.87
18 Bulgarian 11.45
19 Swedish 12.47
20 Montenegrin 13.11

[Gallop]

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dxuqlNMiBFU/XH0SimqxOgI/AAAAAAAAAHA/191EnB5bcP0tsoMSgeEj6hhG4M_HCOxDACLcBGAs/s1600/misor%25C3%25ADgenes.jpg

I am Andalusian and my NA is 4% maybe Carthaginian or Phoenician, it is much older than the Muslim era or maybe it came from the north of Spain or Europe. The issue is that the expulsions had to be massive otherwise it would have taken some value from that time and higher, but it is not.

[Dick]

eurogenes k13


1 North_Atlantic 33.74
2 Baltic 25.75
3 East_Med 13.81
4 West_Med 13.53
5 West_Asian 8.11
6 Red_Sea 1.91
7 Siberian 1.5
8 South_Asian 0.8
9 East_Asian 0.59
10 Oceanian 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 6.43
2 Serbian 6.64
3 Austrian 7
4 East_German 9.45
5 Romanian 9.96
6 West_German 10.06
7 Moldavian 11.26
8 Croatian 11.56
9 South_Dutch 11.7
10 French 12.67
11 Bulgarian 12.95
12 North_German 14.75
13 South_Polish 16.31
14 Southeast_English 16.97
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 17.06
16 Danish 17.14
17 North_Italian 17.41
18 North_Dutch 17.46
19 Portuguese 17.98
20 Swedish 18.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.4% North_Swedish + 41.6% Central_Greek @ 1.56
2 61.6% North_Swedish + 38.4% South_Italian @ 1.75
3 87.4% Austrian + 12.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.97
4 59.3% North_Swedish + 40.7% East_Sicilian @ 1.98
5 51.5% North_Swedish + 48.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.1
6 63.6% Romanian + 36.4% Danish @ 2.12
7 73% Serbian + 27% Danish @ 2.16
8 72.9% Serbian + 27.1% Southeast_English @ 2.19
9 76.1% Serbian + 23.9% West_Scottish @ 2.2
10 55.9% North_Swedish + 44.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.21
11 74.5% Serbian + 25.5% Orcadian @ 2.22
12 61.1% Serbian + 38.9% West_German @ 2.23
13 66% Romanian + 34% Norwegian @ 2.24
14 57.1% Bulgarian + 42.9% Danish @ 2.24
15 60% Romanian + 40% North_German @ 2.28
16 73.5% Serbian + 26.5% North_Dutch @ 2.29
17 81% Austrian + 19% Ashkenazi @ 2.32
18 64.1% Romanian + 35.9% North_Dutch @ 2.33
19 59.6% Bulgarian + 40.4% Norwegian @ 2.33
20 53.4% Bulgarian + 46.6% North_German @ 2.36

[Peterski]

It's gonna be difficult to tell apart Roman from Greek admixture

I find it a bit hard to believe that all Romans were like South Italians, considering that Bronze Age Western Balkans were like North Italians:

I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - TX8387837
I4331 Ancient Croatia J2b2a - RL6378186
I3313 Dalmatia Bronze Age - SZ6386770

On the other hand this Eastern Balkan sample was different, more similar to Southern Italians and Greeks:

I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria - JD6924634

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

[1] "distance%=2.3984"

Viriato_scaled

Iberia_North_IA,39.4
Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,29.8
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,15.8
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,10.2
Iberomaurusian,4.8

[Imperator Biff]

Thank you! I am surprised to see that there are many samples with my haplogroup (R1b-L21\R1b1a2a1a2c) considering it is not that common nowadays in the Iberian Peninsula.

Seeing as the terminal snps associated with Iberian R1b-L21 (DF63,DF73 etc) are younger than the more basal branches which are found mostly in NW Europe (DF13, DF21 etc) I’m inclined to believe most of the R1b-L21 subclades arrived into Iberia during more recent times, probably just as the Roman Empire was collapsing.

[dududud]

Good.

[JMack]

So modern Iberians are basically Celtiberians with Eastern Mediterranean and a bit more of North African admixture.

[Vasconcelos]

So modern Iberians are basically Celtiberians with Eastern Mediterranean and a bit more of North African admixture.
Yep.
IA Iberian + Roman colonists + North Africa..with maybe some small Germanic

[JMack]

Yep.
IA Iberian + Roman colonists + North Africa..with maybe some small Germanic

True Germanic admixture is probably restricted to Galicia/Portugal.

[Token]

So modern Iberians are basically Celtiberians with Eastern Mediterranean and a bit more of North African admixture.

Some Visigothic too, and Suebi in Galicia and by extension Portugal. Germanic admixture should be not higher than North African admix. Aren's post pretty much nails it:


My thoughts aswell. Western Iberia might've hade stronger NA admix already pre-Moorish period(probably from the Roman rule) and then they received a bit more with Moors whilst Eastern Andalucians and other South Iberians drifted slightly away from Western Iberia with the reconquista.

I'm still getting some small amount of Scandinavian/Germanic for most Iberians. What source are you using btw?
Another interesting point is that it doesn't really matter what kind of IA Aegan/East Med source one uses, the runs look basically the same. Indiciating that the East Med area(+ southern half of Italy probably) was pretty homogeneous.

"distance%=1.4909"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,65.8
Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren,14
Nordic_IA,11
Mozabite,9.2

"distance%=1.4138"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,65
Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1,17.4
Mozabite,9.2
Nordic_IA,8.4

"distance%=1.4164"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,55.4
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,18.6
Nordic_IA,15.4
Mozabite,10.6

[Ibericus]

I don't think Nordic_IA is good source sample for Germanic admixture, given that they are even far away more modern Nordics:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o5bLx1NoVV0/W55Qai-4VTI/AAAAAAAAHN8/3vDHMJFj_aw1SusVi1O_16Uf_txWhncPgCLcBGAs/s1600/Celto-Germanic_PCA2.png

[Token]

I don't think Nordic_IA is good source sample for Germanic admixture, given that they are even far away more modern Nordics:

One using Germany_Medieval:

[1] "distance%=1.3918"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,55.4
Germany_Medieval,18.2
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,16.4
Mozabite,10

I've also posted one with actual Visigoths some pages ago:


One with Visigoths, excluding this sample and isolating East Med admix. Fits very nicely.

[1] "distance%=1.4763"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,53.2
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL,25
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,11.4
Mozabite,10.4

[Vasconcelos]

One using Germany_Medieval:

[1] "distance%=1.3918"
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,55.4
Germany_Medieval,18.2
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,16.4
Mozabite,10

I've also posted one with actual Visigoths some pages ago:

That might be just mathematics because they really aren't horribly foreign because there's shared DNA between Germanics and other Europeans. If you look at the PCAs the more recent samples don't really drift in the Gothic direction compared to the older ones, that hints that their impact was small. On the other hand you see a significant trend towards Italy (or the Mediterranean) when you compare Iron age samples and modern Iberians, a clear consequence of Roman colonial genetic impact. I'm still sceptical of a big impact caused by Germanics, 25% seems absurd, they'd most definitely mention that in the paper should that be the case, but they didn't

[Token]

That might be just mathematics because they really aren't horribly foreign because there's shared DNA between Germanics and other Europeans. If you look at the PCAs the more recent samples don't really drift in the Gothic direction compared to the older ones, that hints that their impact was small. On the other hand you see a significant trend towards Italy (or the Mediterranean) when you compare Iron age samples and modern Iberians, a clear consequence of Roman colonial genetic impact. I'm still sceptical of a big impact caused by Germanics, 25% seems absurd, they'd most definitely mention that in the paper should that be the case, but they didn't
PCAs can be very misleading in this case, they will not drift in a Gothic direction compared to Iron Age Iberians because they also got a lot of Mediterranean and some North African admix to counterbalance the northern shift. 25% is too much, but such a high percentage only pops up because these Visigothic samples are already (very) mixed with Southern Europeans.

The paper says they had less impact than Roman colonization, but it doesn't say they had no impact whatsoever, quite to the contrary:

In contrast to the demographic changes in the
Classical period, movements into Iberia during the
decline of the Roman Empire had less long-term
demographic impact. Nevertheless, individual
sites—for example, the 6th century site of Pla de
l'Horta in the northeast—bear witness to events
in this period.

[Vasconcelos]

The shift is not in the East direction, none of the samples move that way in a significant way. I'm not saying there's no Germanic impact, but the situation is more analogous to that of Hungary moreso than Britain - big political/cultural impact, but not genetically. Overall it's not very relevant. In a way I wanted it to be, both my parents were born in places with Germanic names, our own family name is Germanic in origin, but it appears that was it

[Token]

The shift is not in the East direction, none of the samples move that way in a significant way.

Global25 is a PCA, aren't you seeing Iberians moving towards Germans? Of course the impact wasn't like in Britain, not even close.

[Cristiano viejo]

So modern Iberians are basically Celtiberians with Eastern Mediterranean and a bit more of North African admixture.

Modern Iberians are basically like ancient Iberians.

[Aren]

I don't think Nordic_IA is good source sample for Germanic admixture, given that they are even far away more modern Nordics:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o5bLx1NoVV0/W55Qai-4VTI/AAAAAAAAHN8/3vDHMJFj_aw1SusVi1O_16Uf_txWhncPgCLcBGAs/s1600/Celto-Germanic_PCA2.png

That's a PCA created to differentiate NW Europeans from one and other, it's very sensitive to recent genetic drift. Autosomally speaking the Nordic_IA sample is very close to modern Scandinavians. Eitherway, using available medieival continental Germanic samples closest to modern day Norwegians(Collegno:CL146, Germany_Medieval:ALH_1)

"distance%=1.5491"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,63.4
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,14
Nordic_IA,12.4
Mozabite,10.2

"distance%=1.5095"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,63.2
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,14
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,12.6
Mozabite,10.2

However we still don't know for sure what the Roman settlers in Iberia looked like. From what we know of the upcoming Italian paper is that a majority of the Roman population was North Italian like up until the end of the republican period. Using a more central Italian population, such as Tuscans as the source of the East Med/Roman admix in Iberians the fit actually gets slightly better(although the fits above are also good and there's no need to improve them really) and it eats up some of the Germanic part.

"distance%=1.4148"

Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Iberia_North_IA,56.6
Italian_Tuscan,26.2
Mozabite,10
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,7.2

[Token]

Pre-Visigoths Iberia

[1] "distance%=2.4737"
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE

Iberia_North_IA,43.4
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,34
Moroccan,22.6

[1] "distance%=3.8058"
Iberia_Northeast_RomP

Iberia_North_IA,86.8
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,7.4
Germany_Medieval,5.8

[1] "distance%=1.8391"
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE

Iberia_North_IA,45.8
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,29.6
Moroccan,23.8
Slavic_Bohemia,0.8

Post-Visigoths Iberia


[1] "distance%=1.9883"
Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES

Iberia_North_IA,52.2
Germany_Medieval,30.4
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,13.4
Moroccan,4

[1] "distance%=1.8387"
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE

Iberia_North_IA,50
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,27.8
Germany_Medieval,14.2
Moroccan,5.8
Slavic_Bohemia,2.2

Now, the average of the Visigothic samples:

[1] "distance%=1.9474"
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

Germany_Medieval,40.2
Iberia_North_IA,25.2
Slavic_Bohemia,19
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,15.6

Where is the Germanic in pre-Visigoths Iberians? Is it just a coincidence that Germanic pops up during Visigothic rule?

[Peterski]

[1] "distance%=1.9474"
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

Germany_Medieval,40.2
Iberia_North_IA,25.2
Slavic_Bohemia,19
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,15.6 [can be a proxy for Paleo-Balkan ancestry absorbed by Visigoths in the Balkans]

Let's keep in mind that Germany_Medieval were not people native to South Germany.

They were Migration Period newcomers from the North, and were buried in elite Germanic reichen Graber.

Germany_Medieval was genetically most similar to modern Danes and South Swedes.

Goths were not German but Scandinavian, like Jordanes wrote. Wielbark culture autosomal DNA confirms:

http://www.actabp.pl/#Archiwum?./supl/2_2018.html

https://i.postimg.cc/VN9xkBV3/Screenshot_20180929-073310_Drive.jpg

[Token]

Let's keep in mind that Germany_Medieval were not people native to South Germany.

Of course, the results using Longobards, Alemanni, Anglo-Saxons or even Vikings for proxy would be identical. I'm just using Germany_Medieval because Germanic tribes were virtually identical back then, so it works either way.

[Peterski]

Of course, the results using Longobards, Alemanni, Anglo-Saxons or even Vikings for proxy would be identical. I'm just using Germany_Medieval because Germanic tribes were virtually identical back then, so it works either way.

What if you use e.g. Nordic IA and Avars Szolad instead of Germany Medieval and Bohemia Slavic?

Also instead of using Empuries (Greek settlers similar to Mycenaeans) try Balkan IA or Mycenaeans?

[Peterski]

Another Global25 model for Visigoths, I used in total 17 reference populations in this run:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Poprad_Medieval Scythian_Ukraine Iberia_North_IA
3.701866 4.888225 4.947389
Iberia_Northeast_RomP Scythian_Moldova Balkans_BA
5.069968 5.216240 5.797893
Slavic_Bohemia Iberia_East_IA
5.916174 5.990847

[1] "distance%=1.2088" - distance is very good

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

Poprad_Medieval - 23% (East Germanic from Slovakia)
Scythian_Ukraine - 16%
Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 12.2%
Sweden_Viking_Age - 10.2%
Iberia_East_IA - 10%
Balkans_IA - 7.6%
Nordic_IA - 6.6%
Scythian_Moldova - 6%
Mycenaean - 4.8%
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 2%
Slavic_Bohemia - 1.6%

Reference populations used (do you think I should add something more and try again?):

Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av1
Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av2
Avar_Hungary_Szolad
Nordic_IA
Balkans_IA
Balkans_BA
Slavic_Bohemia
Iberia_North_IA
Iberia_Northeast_RomP
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE
Iberia_East_IA
Baltic_IA
Scythian_Ukraine
Scythian_Moldova
Sweden_Viking_Age
Poprad_Medieval
Mycenaean

[Peterski]

Another model also 17 pops but Poprad_Medieval removed and Germany_Medieval added:

[1] "distance%=1.1958"

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

Germany_Medieval - 30.8%
Scythian_Ukraine - 16.2%
Iberia_East_IA - 14.6%
Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 13.2%
Balkans_IA - 10.2%
Scythian_Moldova - 8.4%
Slavic_Bohemia - 6.2%
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 0.4%

And when using both Poprad_Medieval and Germany_Medieval (in total 18 reference pops):

[1] "distance%=1.1498"

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

Germany_Medieval - 20.2%
Scythian_Ukraine - 16%
Poprad_Medieval - 14.6%
Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 12%
Iberia_East_IA - 11.8%
Balkans_IA - 8.2%
Scythian_Moldova - 5.4%
Sweden_Viking_Age - 4.6%
Mycenaean - 3.8%
Slavic_Bohemia - 3%
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 0.4%

[Morena]

Another Global25 model for Visigoths, I used in total 17 reference populations in this run:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Poprad_Medieval Scythian_Ukraine Iberia_North_IA
3.701866 4.888225 4.947389
Iberia_Northeast_RomP Scythian_Moldova Balkans_BA
5.069968 5.216240 5.797893
Slavic_Bohemia Iberia_East_IA
5.916174 5.990847

[1] "distance%=1.2088" - distance is very good

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

Poprad_Medieval - 23% (East Germanic from Slovakia)
Scythian_Ukraine - 16%
Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 12.2%
Sweden_Viking_Age - 10.2%
Iberia_East_IA - 10%
Balkans_IA - 7.6%
Nordic_IA - 6.6%
Scythian_Moldova - 6%
Mycenaean - 4.8%
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 2%
Slavic_Bohemia - 1.6%

Reference populations used (do you think I should add something more and try again?):

Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av1
Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av2
Avar_Hungary_Szolad
Nordic_IA
Balkans_IA
Balkans_BA
Slavic_Bohemia
Iberia_North_IA
Iberia_Northeast_RomP
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE
Iberia_East_IA
Baltic_IA
Scythian_Ukraine
Scythian_Moldova
Sweden_Viking_Age
Poprad_Medieval
Mycenaean

We wuz vikingz and sheet. Seriously, my father's surname is Visigoth but I don't think I got anything from it. :lol:

[Peterski]

I should not use Scythians_Ukraine average because it was an internally diverse group.

I will remove Scythians and try again. Or try with individual Scythians instead of average.

[JMack]

It seems Iberians have far less Germanic than I thought and also more Roman ancestry.

Interesting because this is what people in real life tend to think and was a kind of heresy to say in these forums in which Iberians have been considered for years almost Celtiberian + small North African.

It wasn't really probable that there was no trace of Roman admixture in Iberia, at least the studies are now correcting this myth.

[Damião de Góis]

It seems Iberians have far less Germanic than I thought and also more Roman ancestry.

Interesting because this is what people in real life tend to think and was a kind of heresy to say in these forums in which Iberians have been considered for years almost Celtiberian + small North African.

It wasn't really probable that there was no trace of Roman admixture in Iberia, at least the studies are now correcting this myth.

All this can be checked by looking at haplogroups. There is a minority of germanic and north african haplogroups but most of it is R1b. In any case i still can't match roman input to any haplogroup.

[Peterski]

Ukrainian Scythians removed from the model, but I still included Scythians Moldova (400-200 BC):

[1] "distance%=1.2278"

Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

Germany_Medieval - 19.8%
Poprad_Medieval - 14.6%
Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 14.2%
Slavic_Bohemia - 11.8%
Iberia_East_IA - 11%
Scythian_Moldova - 11%
Sweden_Viking_Age - 7.4%
Mycenaean - 5.6%
Balkans_IA - 4.6%

[Token]

It seems Iberians have far less Germanic than I thought and also more Roman ancestry.

Interesting because this is what people in real life tend to think and was a kind of heresy to say in these forums in which Iberians have been considered for years almost Celtiberian + small North African.

It wasn't really probable that there was no trace of Roman admixture in Iberia, at least the studies are now correcting this myth.

I'm of the opinion that you can't have such a huge cultural impact without an equally huge genetic impact.

[Token]

These Celtiberian samples are witnesses of Hallstatt-related migrations into the peninsula:

[1] "distance%=1.8509"
Iberia_North_IA

Iberia_North_BA,52
Hallstatt_Bylany,47.8
Moroccan,0.2

[Vasconcelos]

I'm of the opinion that you can't have such a huge cultural impact without an equally huge genetic impact.

Hungary

[Token]

Hungary

Ok you won

[Token]

...

[XenophobicPrussian]

These Celtiberian samples are witnesses of Hallstatt-related migrations into the peninsula:

[1] "distance%=1.8509"
Iberia_North_IA

Iberia_North_BA,52
Hallstatt_Bylany,47.8
Moroccan,0.2
I've heard Halberstadt_LBA called Urnfield a few times before, don't know how accurate that is but could check if it improves the fit over Hallstatt.

[FilhoV]

"distance%=2.9898"

FilhoV_scaled

LBK_N,57.6
Yamnaya_Samara,30.4
Iberomaurusian,6.8
WHG,5.2

"distance%=2.0901"

FilhoV_scaled

Italian_Tuscan,42.4
Iberia_BA,28.6
England_Roman,15.6
Mozabite,13.4

[Not a Cop]

Ok you won

It's all complicated with Hungary IMO.

1st - Hungarians do have East-Eurasian admixture, although on low levels.

2nd - We have no idea of what their autosomal make-up was at the moment of settling.

3rd - Hungarians came in horde encompassing other peoples which were united via lingua franca and shared cultural values.


I think that when we will be able to get results of Hungarian settlers it will turn out to be atleast 10%.

[Grace O'Malley]

These Celtiberian samples are witnesses of Hallstatt-related migrations into the peninsula:

[1] "distance%=1.8509"
Iberia_North_IA

Iberia_North_BA,52
Hallstatt_Bylany,47.8
Moroccan,0.2

Spanish are more Celtic than the Irish. ;)

[Cristiano viejo]

Spanish are more Celtic than the Irish. ;)

We are not less Celtic. Hey Gracie, do you live in a city founded by Celts at least?

[Grace O'Malley]

We are not less Celtic. Hey Gracie, do you live in a city founded by Celts at least?

They are more Celtic with these models. They get a higher input from Hallstatt than the Irish. I was born in a city founded by Vikings. :)

[Cristiano viejo]

They are more Celtic with these models. They get a higher input from Hallstatt than the Irish. I was born in a city founded by Vikings. :)

Then claim Viking racial and cultural heritage and let us speak about Celts :thumb001:

[Token]

Spanish are more Celtic than the Irish. ;)

Spanish ancestry isn't composed solely of Celtiberians you know.

[Cristiano viejo]

Spanish ancestry isn't composed solely of Celtiberians you know.

Irish ancestry is not composed only of Celts neither.

[Grace O'Malley]

Then claim Viking racial and cultural heritage and let us speak about Celts :thumb001:

I just claim being a Gael or Irish. What about your Italian heritage? ;)

[Grace O'Malley]

Spanish ancestry isn't composed solely of Celtiberians you know.

These models give them much higher Hallstatt though? I know Spanish and Portuguese have quite a few different ancestries as per this study.

[Cristiano viejo]

I just claim being a Gael or Irish. What about your Italian heritage? ;)

Fortunately I lack it. What about your Spanish heritage?

[Token]

These models give them much higher Hallstatt though?

Only Celtiberians, not Spaniards. You still need a lot of Roman and some North African + Visigoth to get to Spaniards.

[Grace O'Malley]

Fortunately I lack it. What about your Spanish heritage?

I'd love to have Spanish heritage unfortunately it doesn't show in my genetics which I've posted all over this forum. I'd love to see your Ancestry Comp but I won't hold my breath. :)

[Cristiano viejo]

Only Celtiberians, not Spaniards. You still need a lot of Roman and some North African + Visigoth to get to Spaniards.

ja, ja and ja!

[Grace O'Malley]

Anyway this paper is very interesting. I haven't read the supplementary yet but will do later this evening.

[Mingle]

Fortunately I lack it.

You don't think Spaniards have any Roman blood?

[Cristiano viejo]

You don't think Spaniards have any Roman blood?

Not that I think it, it is that we dont have it.

[Not a Cop]

ja, ja and ja!

I know that you're great admirer of Germans since the first time you saw that beatifull race on the shores of Spain, but you don't have to use their language to make such a simple statement as agreement.

[Morena]

Anyway this paper is very interesting. I haven't read the supplementary yet but will do later this evening.

Yay! Please do! I have been waiting for your analysis. ^_^

[Bellbeaking]

We are all part middle eastern farmer, being part north african is cool, they are still eurasian, idiots love to talk shit about spainarids having 5% berber blood

[Morena]

We are all part middle eastern farmer, being part north african is cool, they are still eurasian, idiots love to talk shit about spainarids having 5% berber blood

I agree with this.

[Peterski]

By the way, the study about the genetic history of Italy is also coming soon.

Eurogenes blog guy already knows some leaks about it.


I'd love to have Spanish heritage

Southern English people have more of it, probably from such Neolithic survivors:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282395-Bronze-Age-English-(from-Kent)-on-GEDmatch

https://i.imgur.com/PiF4IW2.png

[Lucas]

Now Celtiberians on Gedmatch

I3757 0.1 genotype rate

I3758 0.74 genotype rate

I3759 0.61 genotype rate


eurogenes K15


Sample i3757

Kit DE6039149

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 31.57
2 North_Sea 26.32
3 West_Med 23.28
4 Eastern_Euro 8.38
5 East_Med 4.95
6 Siberian 2.31
7 Baltic 1.44
8 Northeast_African 0.82
9 Oceanian 0.66
10 Red_Sea 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Cantabria 8.67
2 Spanish_Cataluna 9.62
3 Portuguese 10.43
4 Southwest_French 10.45
5 Spanish_Aragon 10.76
6 Spanish_Galicia 10.76
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.81
8 Spanish_Murcia 10.83
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11
10 Spanish_Extremadura 11.01
11 Spanish_Valencia 11.5
12 French 11.98
13 Spanish_Andalucia 12.87
14 South_Dutch 15.08
15 French_Basque 15.78
16 Southwest_English 16.07
17 North_Italian 16.87
18 Southeast_English 17.61
19 West_German 17.93
20 Irish 19.74

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 20.3% Orcadian @ 7.21
2 83.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 16.6% West_Norwegian @ 7.35
3 75.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 24.1% Southwest_English @ 7.39




Sample i3758

Kit EU2387062

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 39.06
2 North_Sea 22.11
3 West_Med 20.16
4 Baltic 10.38
5 East_Med 2.67
6 Eastern_Euro 1.74
7 Red_Sea 1.43
8 Northeast_African 0.9
9 Sub-Saharan 0.84
10 Amerindian 0.71

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_French 8.03
2 Spanish_Cantabria 9.33
3 Spanish_Aragon 9.38
4 French_Basque 9.85
5 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.71
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 10.75
7 Spanish_Valencia 10.91
8 Spanish_Cataluna 11.05
9 Spanish_Murcia 12.48
10 Spanish_Andalucia 12.87
11 Spanish_Extremadura 13.31
12 Portuguese 13.64
13 Spanish_Galicia 14.36
14 French 14.78
15 South_Dutch 16.55
16 Southwest_English 17.52
17 Southeast_English 18.48
18 North_Italian 19.21
19 Irish 19.57
20 West_Scottish 20.44

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.4% French_Basque + 25.6% Swedish @ 4.2
2 71.1% French_Basque + 28.9% North_Dutch @ 4.6
3 74.2% French_Basque + 25.8% Norwegian @ 4.63





Sample i3759

Kit GW9459600

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 31.21
2 North_Sea 27.5
3 West_Med 23.08
4 Baltic 7.87
5 East_Med 5.07
6 Southeast_Asian 2.52
7 Eastern_Euro 2.39
8 Oceanian 0.19
9 Red_Sea 0.11
10 Sub-Saharan 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Cataluna 8.02
2 Spanish_Cantabria 8.21
3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.05
4 Southwest_French 9.32
5 Spanish_Galicia 9.46
6 Portuguese 9.71
7 Spanish_Murcia 10.34
8 Spanish_Aragon 10.38
9 French 10.45
10 Spanish_Extremadura 10.87
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.87
12 Spanish_Valencia 10.9
13 Spanish_Andalucia 12.6
14 South_Dutch 13.82
15 Southwest_English 14.57
16 French_Basque 15.82
17 North_Italian 16.01
18 Southeast_English 16.26
19 West_German 16.34
20 Irish 18.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 20.3% West_Norwegian @ 5.98
2 70.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 29.5% Southwest_English @ 6.05
3 76.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 23.3% Orcadian @ 6.08

[Peterski]

^^^ Celtiberian I3759 is modeled as half British in Eurogenes K15:

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +25% Sardinian +25% Southwest_French @ 6.230108

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French_Basque + Orcadian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian @ 5.043578
2 French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian + Sardinian @ 5.098173
3 French_Basque + Irish + Sardinian + West_Norwegian @ 5.231817
4 French_Basque + Sardinian + West_Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 5.249746
5 French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_English + West_Norwegian @ 5.275772
6 French_Basque + Sardinian + Southeast_English + West_Norwegian @ 5.315913
7 French_Basque + Orcadian + Sardinian + West_Scottish @ 5.344153
8 French_Basque + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Sardinian @ 5.349766
9 French_Basque + Irish + Orcadian + Sardinian @ 5.354050
(...)

This shows that Proto-Celts were like Brits and not like Hallstatt Bylany.

Of course British-like people also existed in Central Europe (e.g. RISE150).

[Peterski]

Celtiberian I3758 also can be modeled as about 25% Irish in K15:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% French_Basque @ 6.921709

Using 4 populations approximation:
(...)
2 French_Basque + French_Basque + Irish + Southwest_French @ 4.818422

[Peterski]

Celtiberian I3757 can be modeled as close to half British:

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +25% Sardinian +25% Spanish_Aragon @ 8.174452

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian + Sardinian @ 7.105190
2 French_Basque + Orcadian + Sardinian + West_Scottish @ 7.407665
3 French_Basque + Orcadian + Sardinian + Southwest_English @ 7.455674

[Peterski]

The source of Celtic ancestry in Celtiberians is very Northern and similar to modern British, Breton and Irish.

This may not be obvious in K15 but it is obvious in K36 which is better in distinguishing Germanic from Celtic.

I discarded I3757 due to low coverage (just 18563 SNPs) and checked only at the remaining two.