Ancient Ashkenazi Jewish DNA

[Peterski]

Probably the oldest known Ashkenazi Jewish grave is the grave of Jacob ha-Bachur from ca. 1076/1077 - this grave can be found at the Jewish cemetery in Worms (Celtic: Borbetomagus; Roman: Civitas Vangionum) in Rhineland-Palatinate:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/J%C3%BCdischer_Friedhof_Worms-4277.jpg

And here the grave of Yaakov ben Moshe Levi Moelin (born 1365 - died September 14, 1427), the Maharil:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Raschi_grave.jpg

Other old Jewish graves from this cemetery:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/J%C3%BCdischer_Friedhof_Worms-4176.jpg?uselang=de

IMO at least Jacob ha-Bachur (who died in 1076/1077) should be exhumated, and a sample of aDNA should be extracted from his bones.

[Proto-Shaman]

IMO at least Jacob ha-Bachur (who died in 1076/1077) should be exhumated, and a sample of aDNA should be extracted from his bones.
https://i.imgur.com/CNEAiph.gif

[Peterski]

Jacob ha-Bachur's grave: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabstein_des_Jakob_haBachur

Early Medieval Jewish communities in the Rhineland (Jacob ha-Bachur is from Worms):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOI2_9pi10Y


https://i.imgur.com/CNEAiph.gif

Do you believe in the Khazar origin theory, not in the Italy or Rhineland bottleneck theory? :confused:

=====

BTW, there is also Early Medieval Slavic DNA from East Germany:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258847-Early-Medieval-Slavic-DNA-from-Germany

[Proto-Shaman]

BTW, there is also Early Medieval Slavic DNA from East Germany:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258847-Early-Medieval-Slavic-DNA-from-Germany
Europe is the Urheimat of Slavic-Latin I1 and I2 tribes.

[ModernMaskil]

I'm conflicted as generally I'd rather remains be left untouched (especially in a place like worms where multiple massacres occurred) but for the sake of science I'd like to see what their DNA looked like around the time, probably slightly after the bottleneck.

[Pine]

IMO at least Jacob ha-Bachur (who died in 1076/1077) should be exhumated, and a sample of aDNA should be extracted from his bones.

Rabbinic authorities would never allow it.

[Peterski]

Rabbinic authorities would never allow it.

So religious superstition is halting the progress of science? Native Americans agreed to get their ancient bones DNA tested.

[TheOldNorth]

Jacob ha-Bachur's grave: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabstein_des_Jakob_haBachur

Early Medieval Jewish communities in the Rhineland (Jacob ha-Bachur is from Worms):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOI2_9pi10Y



Do you believe in the Khazar origin theory, not in the Italy or Rhineland bottleneck theory? :confused:

=====

BTW, there is also Early Medieval Slavic DNA from East Germany:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258847-Early-Medieval-Slavic-DNA-from-Germany

It's not about belief, it's been proven that ashkenazis are from judean paternal & european (roman) maternal ancestors through not only haplogroups but recent autosomal test

[RandomGuy20]

Interesting :thumb001:
That's also the region where my grandmother is from (Kaiserslautern)

[Peterski]

It's not about belief, it's been proven that ashkenazis are from judean paternal & european (roman) maternal ancestors

Yes, mostly Levantine Y-DNA, but nothing has actually been proven regarding their maternal ancestors.

On Anthrogenica several users argued that the same mtDNA haplogroups existed also in ancient Levant.

About Y-DNA: https://jewishdna.net/

Edit:

More about Ashkenazi haplogroups on page 3: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282661-Ancient-Ashkenazi-Jewish-DNA&p=5892278&viewfull=1#post5892278

[Smeagol]

Ashkenazi are quite similar to Imperial Roman results.

[Kamal900]

Ashkenazi are quite similar to Imperial Roman results.

Which is kinda odd for me. I mean, did most of the imperial Romans descended from Southern Italy or something?

[Peterski]

through not only haplogroups but recent autosomal test

It is also possible to model Ashkenazi Jews as 100% Sicilian or 100% Greek Islander converts to Judaism.

Instead of the more mainstream model suggesting 50% MENA (original Jews) + 50% North Italian converts.

Plus some Eastern/Central European admixtures, but these were absorbed later (after emigration from Italy).


Ashkenazi are quite similar to Imperial Roman results.

That's what I'm saying that they could be converts to Judaism who resembled modern Sicilians and Greek Islanders.

But a more mainstream model says they are actually a mix of 50% MENA + 50% Europe, just like modern Sicilians.

BTW, Davidski claims that the upcoming Ancient Italy DNA study will show that there was a gradual and constant influx of Levant_Neolithic related ancestry to Italy which started in the Iron Age and continued until Late Roman times.

[Dick]

Which is kinda odd for me. I mean, did most of the imperial Romans descended from Southern Italy or something?





Serbia was the birth place of 17 Roman Emperors

[Smeagol]

Which is kinda odd for me. I mean, did most of the imperial Romans descended from Southern Italy or something?

I don't know, most of the Republican era results were North Italian-like but by the Empire they were Sicilian-like.

[Peterski]

Polako claims that Italian nationalists will not like the results of the Ancient Italy study that is about to be published, because the study will detect recent gene flow from the Middle East to Italy which started in the Iron Age and continued until Imperial Roman times.

Of course this is all unofficial, we need to wait until the study gets published for official conclusions.

[Kamal900]

Polako claims that Italian nationalists will not like the results of the Ancient Italy study that is about to be published, because the study will detect recent gene flow from the Middle East to Italy which started in the Iron Age and continued until Imperial Roman times.

Of course this is all unofficial, we need to wait until the study gets published for official conclusions.

Can't wait. The people from the Italicroots forum will not like this one bit, lol.

[Cumansky]

Polako claims that Italian nationalists will not like the results of the Ancient Italy study that is about to be published, because the study will detect recent gene flow from the Middle East to Italy which started in the Iron Age and continued until Imperial Roman times.

Of course this is all unofficial, we need to wait until the study gets published for official conclusions.

Please forward me this study, I want to personaly deliver to Eupedia.com

[Peterski]

Similarity of Jews to South Italians and Greek Islanders can also be a coincidence, resulting from having similar admixture proportions.

By the way here an interesting article about Jews in Hellenistic times (Greek converts could also contribute to Ashkenazi ethnogenesis):

https://www.theopavlidis.com/MidEast/part10.htm


Please forward me this study, I want to personaly deliver to Eupedia.com

I'm on Eupedia too. The study is not yet published.

[Cumansky]

Similarity of Jews to South Italians and Greek Islanders can also be a coincidence, resulting from having similar admixture proportions.

By the way here an interesting article about Jews in Hellenistic times (Greek converts could also contribute to Ashkenazi ethnogenesis):

https://www.theopavlidis.com/MidEast/part10.htm



I'm on Eupedia too. The study is not yet published.

I think I got banned for roasting you one time tbh lol, that Italian witch says alot racist stuff tho she call me "Ukrainian Millrunner"

[FinalFlash]

If the Ashkenazi haplogroups heavily mirror that of southern Europeans then they are simply converts.

[Kamal900]

If the Ashkenazi haplogroups heavily mirror that of southern Europeans then they are simply converts.

Their Y-DNA is mostly middle eastern while their mtDNA is mostly Southern European. They cluster with other Jews of the world by their Y-DNA which is ironic considering that to be a Jew your mother needs to be Jewish and so on.

[Peterski]

If the Ashkenazi haplogroups heavily mirror that of southern Europeans then they are simply converts.

They do not, because Ashkenazi Jews have almost no R1b or R1a (European):

Jewish Y-DNA: https://jewishdna.net/

mtDNA (n=176): https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4090074&viewfull=1#post4090074

Y-DNA (Maciamo): https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4259285&viewfull=1#post4259285

Y-DNA (n=122): https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4089260&viewfull=1#post4089260

Y-DNA (n=2219): https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4092583&viewfull=1#post4092583

From the last link (sample size = 2219):

Haplogroup J2:

J2b (M102) - 29 (1.31%)
J2a1 (L26) - 436 (19.65%), including:

- J2a1b1a (L556) - 171
- other J2a1b1 (M92) - 22
- J2a1b3 (L210) - 89
- other J2a1b (Z6046) - 40
- J2a1h2a1 (L70) - 50
- J2a1h2b (L243) - 17
- other J2a1h2 (L25) - 47

Haplogroup J1:

J1a (Z2215) - 396 (17.85%), including:

- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4b1 (ZS227) - 161
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a6 (YSC76) - 61
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a1 (FGC11) - 9
- J1a2b3a1 (L816) - 78
- J1a2b2b1b7 (Z640) - 24
- other J1a2b2 (Z18297) - 53
- J1a1b1a1 (PF7263) - 10

Haplogroup E1:

E1a1 (M44) - 15 (0.68%)
E1b1b1 (M35) - 369 (16.63%), including:

- E1b1b1b2a1a4d2 (Y6923) - 125
- other E1b1b1b2a1a (M84) - 105
- other E1b1b1b2 (Z830) - 72
- E1b1b1b1a (M81) - 7
- E1b1b1a1b2 (V22) - 32
- E1b1b1a1b1a (V13) - 14
- E1b1b1a1a1 (V12) - 14

Haplogroup G:

G2b1 (M377) - 170 (7.66%)
G2a2b2a1 (L140) - 36 (1.62%)
other G2a (P15) - 18 (0.81%)
G1 (M342) - 31 (1.4%)

Haplogroup T1:

T1a1a1b2b2b1a (P77) - 19 (0.86%)
other T1a1a (L208) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup L1:

L1b (M317) - 4 (0.18%)

Haplogroup R1:

R1a1a1b2a2b1a1 (CTS6 / M582) - 192 (8.65%)
R1a1a1b2a2a (Z2123) - 8 (0.36%)
R1a1a1b1a1b1 (L1029) - 11 (0.5%)
R1b1c (V88) - 22 (0.99%)
R1b1a1a* (PF4354) - 6 (0.27%)
R1b1a1a2b (PF7558) - 37 (1.67%)
R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) - 38 (1.71%)
R1b1a1a2a1 (L51) - 134 (6.04%)

Haplogroup R2:

R2a2 (F1092) - 21 (0.95%)
other R2a (M124) - 3 (0.14%)

Haplogroup Q:

Q1b1a1a1a (Y2200) - 144 (6.49%)

Haplogroup I2:

I2a1 (P37) - 24 (1.08%)
I2a2 (P78) - 12 (0.54%)
I2c (P215) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup I1:

I1a2a1a (Z140) - 4 (0.18%)


considering that to be a Jew your mother needs to be Jewish and so on.

Maternal inheritance of Jewishness is a new, Medieval invention.

In Ancient times Jewishness was being inherited from the father.

[FinalFlash]

They do not, because Ashkenazi Jews have almost no R1b or R1a (European):

Jewish Y-DNA: https://jewishdna.net/

mtDNA: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4090074&viewfull=1#post4090074

Y-DNA: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4259285&viewfull=1#post4259285

Y-DNA: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4089260&viewfull=1#post4089260

Y-DNA (n=2219): https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196414-Ashkenazi-haplogroups&p=4092583&viewfull=1#post4092583

From the last link (sample size = 2219):

Haplogroup J2:

J2b (M102) - 29 (1.31%)
J2a1 (L26) - 436 (19.65%), including:

- J2a1b1a (L556) - 171
- other J2a1b1 (M92) - 22
- J2a1b3 (L210) - 89
- other J2a1b (Z6046) - 40
- J2a1h2a1 (L70) - 50
- J2a1h2b (L243) - 17
- other J2a1h2 (L25) - 47

Haplogroup J1:

J1a (Z2215) - 396 (17.85%), including:

- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4b1 (ZS227) - 161
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a6 (YSC76) - 61
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a1 (FGC11) - 9
- J1a2b3a1 (L816) - 78
- J1a2b2b1b7 (Z640) - 24
- other J1a2b2 (Z18297) - 53
- J1a1b1a1 (PF7263) - 10

Haplogroup E1:

E1a1 (M44) - 15 (0.68%)
E1b1b1 (M35) - 369 (16.63%), including:

- E1b1b1b2a1a4d2 (Y6923) - 125
- other E1b1b1b2a1a (M84) - 105
- other E1b1b1b2 (Z830) - 72
- E1b1b1b1a (M81) - 7
- E1b1b1a1b2 (V22) - 32
- E1b1b1a1b1a (V13) - 14
- E1b1b1a1a1 (V12) - 14

Haplogroup G:

G2b1 (M377) - 170 (7.66%)
G2a2b2a1 (L140) - 36 (1.62%)
other G2a (P15) - 18 (0.81%)
G1 (M342) - 31 (1.4%)

Haplogroup T1:

T1a1a1b2b2b1a (P77) - 19 (0.86%)
other T1a1a (L208) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup L1:

L1b (M317) - 4 (0.18%)

Haplogroup R1:

R1a1a1b2a2b1a1 (CTS6 / M582) - 192 (8.65%)
R1a1a1b2a2a (Z2123) - 8 (0.36%)
R1a1a1b1a1b1 (L1029) - 11 (0.5%)
R1b1c (V88) - 22 (0.99%)
R1b1a1a* (PF4354) - 6 (0.27%)
R1b1a1a2b (PF7558) - 37 (1.67%)
R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) - 38 (1.71%)
R1b1a1a2a1 (L51) - 134 (6.04%)

Haplogroup R2:

R2a2 (F1092) - 21 (0.95%)
other R2a (M124) - 3 (0.14%)

Haplogroup Q:

Q1b1a1a1a (Y2200) - 144 (6.49%)

Haplogroup I2:

I2a1 (P37) - 24 (1.08%)
I2a2 (P78) - 12 (0.54%)
I2c (P215) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup I1:

I1a2a1a (Z140) - 4 (0.18%)

So what are they mostly? I see a lot of R1bs, J2s, J1s and E1b1. But all of these have various subclades.

[Peterski]

So what are they mostly? I see a lot of R1bs, J2s, J1s and E1b1. But all of these have various subclades.

They have some R1a and R1b but these are mostly Indo-Iranian and Middle Eastern subclades.

For example:

R1a1a1b2a2b1a1 (CTS6 / M582) - 192 (8.65%) - it is a subclade under R1a-Z93 (Indo-Iranian)

R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) - 38 (1.71%) - this is Eastern R1b, also common among Armenians etc.

[FinalFlash]

They have some R1a and R1b but these are mostly Indo-Iranian and Middle Eastern subclades.

For example:

R1a1a1b2a2b1a1 (CTS6 / M582) - 192 (8.65%) - it is a subclade under R1a-Z93 (Indo-Iranian)

R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) - 38 (1.71%) - this is Eastern R1b, also common among Armenians etc.

The R1b subclade in Armenians is mostly that which is present in the Balkans.

What about their J2s, J1s and Gs?

[Peterski]

Ashkenazi Jews have only about 2% of typically Slavic Y-DNA and even less of Germanic Y-DNA.

They have in total 6% of European R1b (L51), but probably most of it is Roman/Italian R1b-U152.


What about their J2s, J1s and Gs?

For example their G is mainly G2b, while European G (from Neolithic Anatolian farmers) is G2a.

[FinalFlash]

Ashkenazi Jews have only about 2% of typically Slavic Y-DNA and even less of Germanic Y-DNA.

They have in total 6% of European R1b (L51), but probably most of it is Roman/Italian R1b-U152.



For example their G is mainly G2b, while European G (from Neolithic Anatolian farmers) is G2a.

Then ashkenazis should heavily vary genetically from person to person if thats the case. Yet every PCA chart or calculator trolling ive seen swears up and down that theyre homogenous in terms of where they cluster and their admix proportions.

[Peterski]

Then ashkenazis should heavily vary genetically from person to person if thats the case.

Why? These haplogroups were absorbed by AJ community thousands or at least hundreds of years ago.

There are not going to be big autosomal differences after so many generations of endogamy since then.

[FinalFlash]

Why? These haplogroups were absorbed by AJ community thousands or at least hundreds of years ago.

There are not going to be big autosomal differences after so many generations of endogamy since then.

How have they been endogamous if their paternal haplogroups are supposedly middle eastern while their maternal is mostly European? Theyrre supposedly hyrbids from what I gather. Where does it suggest that theyre endogamous? If anything its quite the opposite imo

[Kamal900]

How have they been endogamous if their paternal haplogroups are supposedly middle eastern while their maternal is mostly European? Theyrre supposedly hyrbids from what I gather. Where does it suggest that theyre endogamous? If anything its quite the opposite imo

They stopped mixing with the goyim after they intermarried with the local Southern European populace - namely North Italians or something.

[Peterski]

How have they been endogamous if their paternal haplogroups are supposedly middle eastern while their maternal is mostly European? Theyrre supposedly hyrbids from what I gather. Where does it suggest that theyre endogamous? If anything its quite the opposite imo

They have been endogamous at least during the last 1000 or so years. The mixing between Middle Eastern and European lineages was probably 1500-2500 years ago.

Also the claim that their mtDNA is European is nothing certain.

[FinalFlash]

They have been endogamous at least during the last 1000 or so years. The mixing between Middle Eastern and European lineages was probably 1500-2500 years ago.

Also the claim that their mtDNA is European is nothing certain.

Its still puzzling though. From all the ashkenazi tests ive seen, there seems to be very little differences in their aDNA frequencies as far as what admixtures they score. Even if they stopped mixing a thousand years ago, how are their admixture frequencies so seemingly consistent? And plus, where did their supposed "slavic" and "germanic" admixture come from if they supposedly stopped mixing after they mixed with North Italians?

[Peterski]

Even if they stopped mixing a thousand years ago, how are their admixture frequencies so seemingly consistent?

They were a small group 1000 years ago, they were not so numerous and not yet widespread around the world at that time. That's why.


And plus, where did their supposed "slavic" and "germanic" admixture come from if they supposedly stopped mixing after they mixed with North Italians?

They absorbed some new converts to Judaism after that, but it is a small part of their ancestry compared to the other two parts (MENA and South Euro).

[FinalFlash]

They were a very small population 1000 years ago, they were not so numerous and widespread around the world at that time. That's why.



They absorbed some new converts to Judaiam after that, but it is a small part of their ancestry compared to the other two parts (MENA and South Euro).

I also hear that many communist converts escaped to Israel from Spain. Goyim, not ashkenazis. Personally, i don't think that they're a homogenous group at all because I think the amount of converts that they've absorbed is heavily understated. Hell, Jews from Russia are Russian admixed to a degree and I'm damn sure it ain't North Italian admixture.

Why is the claim of their mDNA nothing certain? Do we not know which mDNA is European or ME? Is it not distinguishable?

[Peterski]

I also hear that many communist converts escaped to Israel from Spain. Goyim, not ashkenazis. Personally, i don't think that they're a homogenous group at all because I think the amount of converts that they've absorbed is heavily understated. Hell, Jews from Russia are Russian admixed to a degree and I'm damn sure it ain't North Italian admixture. Why is the claim of their mDNA nothing certain? Do we not know which mDNA is European or ME? Is it not distinguishable?

Jews from Russia didn't have that much time to mix with Russians, because before the Partitions of Poland Russia had no Jews.

Check this data by Russian historian Kabuzan, he says that in year 1719 the number of Jews in the Russian Empire was... zero:

http://statehistory.ru/img_lib2/2011/12/1324419849_8c3f.jpg

In general a lot of the so called "German Jews" as well as the so called "Russian Jews" lived in Poland-Lithuania before 1772. Prussia-Brandenburg (which later unified Germany) annexed Silesia in 1740 and other Polish regions in 1772-1795, absorbing many Jews in those lands.

A lot of those Jews annexed by Germany in 1740-1795 later migrated internally within Germany to West Germany and to Berlin.

Berlin in the 1600s had 0 Jews, but fast forward to 1925 and it was the largest Jewish community in Germany with 160,000 Jews.

[FinalFlash]

Jews from Russia didn't have that much time to mix with Russians, because before the Partitions of Poland Russia had no Jews.

Check this data by Russian historian Kabuzan, he says that in year 1719 the number of Jews in the Russian Empire was... zero:

http://statehistory.ru/img_lib2/2011/12/1324419849_8c3f.jpg

I understand. But 300 years later? Not to mention Germanic DNA too as well as Western European. These people have traveled like nomads and have been exiled from their host nations a plethora of times over millenia. You really think that they haven't absorbed a significant amount of concerts over such a massive time period? Absorbed them into their clans? They're some of the least endogamous, pro-mixing people ive seen in modern times. Their mere existence was the result of mixing apparently.

[Peterski]

Not to mention Germanic DNA too

I don't think they have much of Germanic DNA but if they have some, it could be absorbed in North Italy which was ruled by Longobards. It could also be absorbed in the Rhineland where Ashkenazi Jews apparently lived ca. 1000 AD before the First Crusade (see the video I posted).

[Cumansky]

Kohanim Jew Y-DNA J-M267 (Ashkenazi)

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.91
2 West_Med 20.47
3 North_Atlantic 16.7
4 West_Asian 12.78
5 Baltic 9.36
6 Red_Sea 4.52
7 Siberian 2.46
8 South_Asian 1.87
9 Sub-Saharan 0.68
10 East_Asian 0.24
11 Northeast_African 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 3.82
2 Central_Greek 4.24
3 South_Italian 5.06
4 Ashkenazi 5.19
5 West_Sicilian 6.04
6 Italian_Abruzzo 6.64
7 Greek_Thessaly 8.53
8 Sephardic_Jewish 9.74
9 Italian_Jewish 9.91
10 Algerian_Jewish 9.94
11 Tuscan 11.86
12 Tunisian_Jewish 13.72
13 Libyan_Jewish 14.46
14 Cyprian 16.18
15 Bulgarian 17.12
16 North_Italian 18.06
17 Romanian 19.12
18 Lebanese_Muslim 19.45
19 Turkish 20.08
20 Syrian 20.46

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.8% South_Italian + 8.2% Mari @ 2.44
2 91.5% South_Italian + 8.5% Chuvash @ 2.63
3 90% South_Italian + 10% Tatar @ 2.87
4 58.3% Central_Greek + 41.7% Ashkenazi @ 2.92
5 53.7% Greek_Thessaly + 46.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.97
6 97.2% East_Sicilian + 2.8% Dolgan @ 2.99
7 92.4% South_Italian + 7.6% East_Finnish @ 3
8 97.4% East_Sicilian + 2.6% Evens @ 3
9 97.4% East_Sicilian + 2.6% Evenki @ 3.01
10 97.3% East_Sicilian + 2.7% Yakut @ 3.04
11 96.8% East_Sicilian + 3.2% Ket @ 3.06
12 96.9% East_Sicilian + 3.1% Selkup @ 3.06
13 92% South_Italian + 8% Erzya @ 3.06
14 97.4% East_Sicilian + 2.6% Oroqen @ 3.1
15 91.9% South_Italian + 8.1% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.11
16 97.3% East_Sicilian + 2.7% Koryak @ 3.12
17 97% East_Sicilian + 3% Tuvinian @ 3.15
18 58.7% Ashkenazi + 41.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.18
19 97.2% East_Sicilian + 2.8% Buryat @ 3.18
20 96.8% East_Sicilian + 3.2% Altaian @ 3.2

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek_Thessaly +50% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.073838

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% Central_Greek +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.921853

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
1 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.609637
2 Ashkenazi + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Tuscan @ 2.731609
3 Ashkenazi + East_Sicilian + Greek_Thessaly + South_Italian @ 2.869610
4 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.875226
5 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.921853
6 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.945822
7 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + West_Sicilian @ 2.948999
8 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + South_Italian @ 2.973514
9 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + South_Italian @ 2.987550
10 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + East_Sicilian + West_Sicilian @ 2.994561
11 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + West_Sicilian @ 2.999324
12 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.999815
13 Algerian_Jewish + Romanian + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 3.022169
14 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 3.023026
15 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Cyprian + North_Italian @ 3.028340
16 Algerian_Jewish + Cyprian + Romanian + West_Sicilian @ 3.033637
17 Hungarian + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian @ 3.035218
18 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + South_Italian + West_Sicilian @ 3.047661
19 Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + Romanian + West_Sicilian @ 3.048153
20 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.060333

[Pine]

They were a small group 1000 years ago, they were not so numerous and not yet widespread around the world at that time. That's why.



They absorbed some new converts to Judaism after that, but it is a small part of their ancestry compared to the other two parts (MENA and South Euro).

Any data on the profile of the eastern euro converts? Ruthenian, Polish, or Baltic? I'm guessing the latter two, as the migration largely happened from west to east.

[Pandur]

ashkenazis aren't ancient lol

[Pine]

So religious superstition is halting the progress of science? Native Americans agreed to get their ancient bones DNA tested.

It's religion and it would be silly to instantly dismiss it. A rabbi would probably smile here and tell you that this is G-d's way to progress science in developing X-Ray DNA reading.

[Sp_loa]

I don’t understand why people think Ashkenazi are half north Italian just because Gedmatch gives that module.
Sephardim Italian Ancestry is clearly from the south. That’s what 23andme usually shows in recent locations of ancestry features and also Sephardim sometimes get dozens of gentile matches of Italian descent from Campania, Pulgia, Sicily and Calabria.

BTW I don’t even think South Italians are half levantine half North Italian. They just plot this way, but even bulgarian can plot as Romanian+levant and that doesn’t make it true. Phoenician influences on pulgia, campania or even Sicily were minoric to non existening depending on the region. Greek influences however were strong. South Italian are mainly Greek with a bit of MENA (max 15%), Roman and sometimes Norman blood and not half lombard half Lebanese. I don’t understand how one can think Campanians are half Lebanese.

Ashkenazi are South Italian+levant+ some central Europe that balance the levant and that’s why the plot with Sicilians if you ask me.

[Dragoon]

Jews from Russia didn't have that much time to mix with Russians, because before the Partitions of Poland Russia had no Jews.

Check this data by Russian historian Kabuzan, he says that in year 1719 the number of Jews in the Russian Empire was... zero:

http://statehistory.ru/img_lib2/2011/12/1324419849_8c3f.jpg

In general a lot of the so called "German Jews" as well as the so called "Russian Jews" lived in Poland-Lithuania before 1772. Prussia-Brandenburg (which later unified Germany) annexed Silesia in 1740 and other Polish regions in 1772-1795, absorbing many Jews in those lands.

A lot of those Jews annexed by Germany in 1740-1795 later migrated internally within Germany to West Germany and to Berlin.

Berlin in the 1600s had 0 Jews, but fast forward to 1925 and it was the largest Jewish community in Germany with 160,000 Jews.

What about before the Jews came to Poland-Lithuania. Whered they come from. Before that Western Europe was kicking them out, so Germany, France, Italy, etc.
The Khazar stuff is probably very minimal too.

?

[Imperator Biff]

Khazar theory is a very small brained theory that has been debunked countless times already. Only retards still believe it.
AJ back then would’ve been like modern ones minus the minor amount of Western and Eastern European ancestry they have now which they picked up on the way of being kicked out of every kingdom they infested.
Modern heebs are so inbred to the point every one of them is a fourth cousin genetically. So no doubt a huge founder effect.
Looking at their mtDNA it’s quite obvious their european admixture came via female exogamy, most of it Southern European like. Probably from Roman Italy. Possibly it came about from jew merchants buying and raping local slave girls.
That’d be my guess. Their y-dna on the other hand is mostly from the near east. They’re a 50/50 mischling population.

[FilhoV]

Polako claims that Italian nationalists will not like the results of the Ancient Italy study that is about to be published, because the study will detect recent gene flow from the Middle East to Italy which started in the Iron Age and continued until Imperial Roman times.

Of course this is all unofficial, we need to wait until the study gets published for official conclusions.
Nationalists in general don’t like genetic studies

[Unknown European]

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_1
Distance: 2.3603% / 0.02360318
59.0 Lebanese_Christian
35.2 Italian_Tuscany
5.0 French_Provence
0.8 Lebanese_Muslim
0.0 French_Alsace
0.0 Italian_Apulia
0.0 Lebanese_Druze

When you use Southern Italian sources and Northern/Central Italian. Ashkenazi will pretty much always prefer Northern and Central Italian sources over Southern Italian sources. I also see more Mtdna in Ashkenazi related to Southern French and Northern/Central Italians compared to Southern Italians I also believe there is more IBD sharing in Ashkenazi and Northern Italians then Ashkenazi and Southern Italians. The source above is an Ashkenazi lacking heavily in Northern European like ancestry probably closer to the original bottleneck Ashkenazi Jews then most other Ashkenazi Jews. If you use just an Southern Italian and Levantine source you will get a higher Southern Italian admixture compare to Levantine admixture but there will also be greater distance compared to if you use a Northern Italian source and a Levantine source which will usually give a more even Italian and Levantine admixture and a closer distance. It seems fairly evident that the Southern European admixture in Ashkenazi is more Central and Northern Italian like than Southern Italian and Sicilian like. I think some people simply think that because Ashkenazi Jews are overall more genetically similar to Southern Italians and Sicilians that it means we derive more of our ancestry from them however it is more complicated than that.

[dududud]

Polako claims that Italian nationalists will not like the results of the Ancient Italy study that is about to be published, because the study will detect recent gene flow from the Middle East to Italy which started in the Iron Age and continued until Imperial Roman times.

Of course this is all unofficial, we need to wait until the study gets published for official conclusions.

Not "italians nationalist".

North italians have least middle eastern, and sardinians too.

Republic roman was Estrucan like, not very exotic.

[dududud]

Where is the dna of this old ashkenazi????

WHERE???

[Figaro]

Bwaaa...got my hopes up with the thread title here.

[Deusex99]

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_1
Distance: 2.3603% / 0.02360318
59.0 Lebanese_Christian
35.2 Italian_Tuscany
5.0 French_Provence
0.8 Lebanese_Muslim
0.0 French_Alsace
0.0 Italian_Apulia
0.0 Lebanese_Druze

When you use Southern Italian sources and Northern/Central Italian. Ashkenazi will pretty much always prefer Northern and Central Italian sources over Southern Italian sources. I also see more Mtdna in Ashkenazi related to Southern French and Northern/Central Italians compared to Southern Italians I also believe there is more IBD sharing in Ashkenazi and Northern Italians then Ashkenazi and Southern Italians. The source above is an Ashkenazi lacking heavily in Northern European like ancestry probably closer to the original bottleneck Ashkenazi Jews then most other Ashkenazi Jews. If you use just an Southern Italian and Levantine source you will get a higher Southern Italian admixture compare to Levantine admixture but there will also be greater distance compared to if you use a Northern Italian source and a Levantine source which will usually give a more even Italian and Levantine admixture and a closer distance. It seems fairly evident that the Southern European admixture in Ashkenazi is more Central and Northern Italian like than Southern Italian and Sicilian like. I think some people simply think that because Ashkenazi Jews are overall more genetically similar to Southern Italians and Sicilians that it means we derive more of our ancestry from them however it is more complicated than that.

Using modern population to simulate mixing happened 2000 or 4000 years ago is obviously fake and distances above 2 are kinda pointless. Using an array of ancient populations, Ashkenazim are only 10% Etruscan or so.