View Full Version : "Proto-Iranians were not Northern Europeans"
Nmiito
08-30-2022, 03:20 PM
What do you mean?
The Medes were ARYAN people, that's a fact. Suppose the Medes (as Western Iranics) were not native to Kurdistan and arrived in Kurdistan from SouthCentral Asia, more precisely from the Yaz area. The Medes (Western Iranics) themselves had NOTHING to do with the Andronovo Horizon.
At the end, it doesn't even matter where those Medes came from in the first place. Why? If they were native to Kurdistan they would be CHG (Iron_Age Hasanlu) and even if they were from BMAC they would be also mostly CHG, since BMAC was CHG/Irn_ChL derived itself. So no matter how you look at it, the Medes as ARYAN people (Western Iranics) were mostly related to the ancient CHG people (Northwestern Asians).
CHG (Irn_ChL) has been related to the proto-Indo-Europeans and later Iranics (Western and Eastern) from the very beginning of their respective origins
So your position is that the Medes are an unaltered version of the Mesolithic inhabitants of the same territory, largely CHG, Iran_N and Levant_N, who already spoke a Proto-Indo-European language?
Nmiito
08-30-2022, 03:25 PM
I am sure that if the Medes were from YAZ, they made Kurds even more CHG/Iran_ChL, because CHG/Irn_ChL was less diluted in SouthCentral Asia than CHG in West Asia.
Kurds more CHG/Irn_ChL than Armenians, and that thanks to the Medes!
CHG/Irn_ChL = ARYAN
And yet the most CHG populations today speak Kartvelian and Caucasian languages. This doesn't seem to fit with your theory.
So your position is that the Medes are an unaltered version of the Mesolithic inhabitants of the same territory, largely CHG, Iran_N and Levant_N, who already spoke a Proto-Indo-European language?My position is that IF once again IF the Medes were from SouthCentral Asia than they were mostly BMAC derived people.
BMAC has CHG/Iran_ChL origin. If you don’t believe me, I can give you link to the academic papers.
BMAC mixed a little bit the native people of Central Asia, but they kept more CHG/Iran_ChL intact than let say Armenians
And yet the most CHG populations today speak Kartvelian and Caucasian languages. This doesn't seem to fit with your theory.You didn’t read the Southern Arc paper? If you have issues with the paper and the academic world, it is not really my problem.
It has been said that the proto-Hurrians and proto-Indo-Europeans share the same origin and the same ancient pre-Sumerian ancestors.
Nmiito
08-30-2022, 03:45 PM
My position is that IF once again IF the Medes were from SouthCentral Asia than they were mostly BMAC derived people.
BMAC has CHG/Iran_ChL origin. If you don’t believe me, I can give you link to the academic papers.
BMAC mixed a little bit the native people of Central Asia, but they kept more CHG/Iran_ChL intact than let say Armenians
The Medes are a population contemporary to ancient Rome. Pretending that they have any importance in the ethnogenesis of any other population is stupid.
You have no idea if the Medes are of local origin and descended from a population who had been living in the same land for 10k years, or if the original Medes came from somewhere else and if they made a small or big impact in the local population (like the Huns in Hungary vs the Hazaras in Afghanistan). You don't even know if the CHG/Iran_N-like of the Medes has its origin in BMAC or from from locals CHGs. All you have is your wishful thinking.
Nmiito
08-30-2022, 03:52 PM
You didn’t read the Southern Arc paper? If you have issues with the paper and the academic world, it is not really my problem.
It has been said that the proto-Hurrians and proto-Indo-Europeans share the same origin and the same ancient pre-Sumerian ancestors.
No, you're just making things up because you're clueless but desire very strongly that your theory becomes true.
You can't pretend to link an ancient population (CHG) to a macrogroup of languages (Indo-European) and then forget that the populations who today harbour the highest amount of this ancient ancestry do not speak the languages which supposedly originated in them. Not to mention the insane ties you make between ancient and modern populations and between populations with mixed origins who share the same ancient ancestry. Seriously nothing you say makes sense.
Babak
08-30-2022, 04:36 PM
My position is that IF once again IF the Medes were from SouthCentral Asia than they were mostly BMAC derived people.
BMAC has CHG/Iran_ChL origin. If you don’t believe me, I can give you link to the academic papers.
BMAC mixed a little bit the native people of Central Asia, but they kept more CHG/Iran_ChL intact than let say Armenians
Except Iranics dont have the most CHG in west asia. Those would be north caucasus folks.
Bro, you're all over the place. Its clear that the original west Iranics originated from the Sintashta/Andronovo cultures.
The Medes are a population contemporary to ancient Rome. Pretending that they have any importance in the ethnogenesis of any other population is stupid.
You have no idea if the Medes are of local origin and descended from a population who had been living in the same land for 10k years, or if the original Medes came from somewhere else and if they made a small or big impact in the local population (like the Huns in Hungary vs the Hazaras in Afghanistan). You don't even know if the CHG/Iran_N-like of the Medes has its origin in BMAC or from from locals CHGs. All you have is your wishful thinking.LOL.
The biblical MedES, the Aryans, and not the Meds, I don't refer to the Medeterranean people, hehe.
The Medes were direct ARYAN ancestors of the Kurds
The MedEs were the founders of the 1st Aryan Empire ever. If they were not significant than nobody is on this planet. Even more significant than the Sumerians.
https://i.postimg.cc/L6G3Qj9C/Median-empire-map.png
Except Iranics dont have the most CHG in west asia. Those would be north caucasus folks.
Bro, you're all over the place. Its clear that the original west Iranics originated from the Sintashta/Andronovo cultures.You are wrong. Iranics have, together with the modern Hurrians, the most CHG/Irn_ChL ancesty.
In the Southern Arc paper they use Irn_ChL for their CHG models.
No way in 1000 years people in Sintashta/Andronovo cultures spoke a Western Iranic dialect aka proto-Kurdic hehe. Western Iranic is either native to Kurdistan or was native to Yaz (BMAC). With other words a CHG/Iran_ChL language, period!
If the Medes came from SouthCentral Asia than this was most likely the case.
https://i.postimg.cc/Df6C6xM7/R1a-migration-map.jpg
Babak
08-30-2022, 05:03 PM
If the Medes came from SouthCentral Asia than this was most likely the case.
https://i.postimg.cc/Df6C6xM7/R1a-migration-map.jpg
Which shows they came from Andronovo/Sintashta.
Dawg, its right there lol
Which shows they came from Andronovo/Sintashta.
Dawg, its right there lolNo, they were NOT at all.
According to the most Iranologists proto-Iranics/Aryans crystalized around Yaz. This is what most of them are telling us
If the Medes came from the east, then the Medes entered Kurdistan from Yaz and NOT from Andronovo at all
Nmiito
08-30-2022, 05:37 PM
LOL.
The biblical MedES, the Aryans, and not the Meds, I don't refer to the Medeterranean people, hehe.
The Medes were direct ARYAN ancestors of the Kurds
The MedEs were the founders of the 1st Aryan Empire ever. If they were not significant than nobody is on this planet. Even more significant than the Sumerians.
https://i.postimg.cc/L6G3Qj9C/Median-empire-map.png
WTF are you talking about? I didn't say anything about the Medes being Mediterranean. You made this up.
The Medes are a people from 600 BC, too late to be the original "Aryans". If anything they're one of the many tribes originating from the Indo-Europeans, hardly relevant really.
You don't address anything I say because you don't know anything, just invent stuff to fit your agenda. Seriously you're so deluded and retarded that I'm not going to waste more time with you.
WTF are you talking about? I didn't say anything about the Medes being Mediterranean. You made this up.
The Medes are a people from 600 BC, too late to be the original "Aryans". If anything they're one of the many tribes originating from the Indo-Europeans, hardly relevant really.
You don't address anything I say because you don't know anything, just invent stuff to fit your agenda. Seriously you're so deluded and retarded that I'm not going to waste more time with you.The Medes are the most important ancestors of the Kurds. Without the Medes Aryan Kurdish language, history, religion etc. would not exist. The Medes were mentioned by their neighbours long before 612BC.
By the 612BC it were the Aryan Medes who destroyed the Assyrians. But the Medes existed in Kurdistan centuries before that.
The Medes called themselves 'ARYANS'. Also other people around them, such as Armenians, Greeks etc. referred to them as the Aryans. You know nothing about history, mate. First educate yourself then we can talk. The Medes are the real ARYANS and they were CHG/Irn_ChL people.
NEXT
Babak
08-30-2022, 06:24 PM
No, they were NOT at all.
According to the most Iranologists proto-Iranics/Aryans crystalized around Yaz. This is what most of them are telling us
If the Medes came from the east, then the Medes entered Kurdistan from Yaz and NOT from Andronovo at all
Im talking about the original Iranics, not the ones that mongrelized with bmac natives. Yaz was already mixed, which is why west iranics were already 50% EHG and 50% BMAC by the time they migrated to Iran.
Kurds and Persians are an assimilated people. The Iranian or 'Aryan' identity was passed down, just like how Egyptians are now Arabs.
Im talking about the original Iranics, not the ones that mongrelized with bmac natives. Yaz was already mixed, which is why west iranics were already 50% EHG and 50% BMAC by the time they migrated to Iran.
Kurds and Persians are an assimilated people. The Iranian or 'Aryan' identity was passed down, just like how Egyptians are now Arabs.Lol.
But the original proto-Iranics were 'mongrelized' people. I don't understand why you are denying this fact. Like Yamnaya people were 'mongrelized', like CWC people were 'mongrelized', like Italo-Celtic people were 'mongrelized' etc. Every new distinct ethnic group is 'mongrelized' and a mixture between locals and the immigrants.
Once again IF the Medes came from the east, then they came 100% from Yaz. It is what the academic world and Iranologists are telling us. Whether you like it or not. Nobody is asking about your opinion.
Bro, unlike you who is a ethnic Turkic Azeri, I am IRANIC, I know the history of my people very well, maybe much better than all the people here combined.
I have never seen any Iranologist claiming that that the Medes or Persians didn't come from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) area.
According to them proto-Iranic, proto-Western Iranic (Kurdic and Farsi), proto-Eastern Iranic were formed around Yaz.
The only thing what I have against what most Iranologists are claiming is that I think that it were the Western Asians who brought an Aryan language into BMAC and not the other way around.
But BMAC is a very special place of origin for many Iranic languages I never denied that. No sane person with considerable knowledge of Iranic/Aryan history is denying that.
Meanwhile you can still find Afghans who score like this (no recent European ancestry whatsoever)
Target: Shamal_simulated_g25_scaled
Distance: 1.4918% / 0.01491835
41.0 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
34.4 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
19.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.2 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
2.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
Doesn't have to say anything. Most likely mixed just with the native Central Asians, non-Indo-European Turkic people, Mongols/Golden Horde etc.
You can find also high Steppe results among Siberian and Turkic people, doesn't make them more 'Iranic' aka Aryan than the Persians, hehe.
Also don't forget that the Scythians as speakers of the Eastern Iranic dialects were nomads, so they migrated back and forth. Some Steppes ancestry in modern SouthCentral Asians can be explained by the Scythians who have assimilated many non-Iranic Mongoloid/Siberian people in the Steppes.
FACT is that proto-Iranic is NOT from Andronovo.
Babak
08-31-2022, 12:27 AM
Lol.
But the original proto-Iranics were 'mongrelized' people. I don't understand why you are denying this fact. Like Yamnaya people were 'mongrelized', like CWC people were 'mongrelized', like Italo-Celtic people were 'mongrelized' etc. Every new distinct ethnic group is 'mongrelized' and a mixture between locals and the immigrants.
Once again IF the Medes came from the east, then they came 100% from Yaz. It is what the academic world and Iranologists are telling us. Whether you like it or not. Nobody is asking about your opinion.
Bro, unlike you who is a ethnic Turkic Azeri, I am IRANIC, I know the history of my people very well, maybe much better than all the people here combined.
I have never seen any Iranologist claiming that that the Medes or Persians didn't come from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) area.
According to them proto-Iranic, proto-Western Iranic (Kurdic and Farsi), proto-Eastern Iranic were formed around Yaz.
The only thing what I have against what most Iranologists are claiming is that I think that it were the Western Asians who brought an Aryan language into BMAC and not the other way around.
But BMAC is a very special place of origin for many Iranic languages I never denied that. No sane person with considerable knowledge of Iranic/Aryan history is denying that.
Im of both Azeri and Persian background. Nothing to do with what I know or dont know.
Second of all, what im saying is, is that Proto Iranics became to be known as West Iranics when they mixed with the native BMAC population. Proto Iranic->West Iranic->Persian and Kurdish.
The Persian identity was formed with the fusion of Elamite and Iranic cultures, while the Kurdish identity was formed with the fusion of Northwest Iranics and Kassites/Gutians.
Im talking about the original Iranics, not the ones that mongrelized with bmac natives. Yaz was already mixed, which is why west iranics were already 50% EHG and 50% BMAC by the time they migrated to Iran.
Kurds and Persians are an assimilated people. The Iranian or 'Aryan' identity was passed down, just like how Egyptians are now Arabs.
There seems to be alot of confusion about Aryans and Arya. Arya was centered around Herat which was part of the Persian empire and part of the Aryana region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(region). The ancient Aryans were Parthians and Sogdians . Medes who came before Parthians also had some ancestors from that area
Aryana was home to some of Kurd and Persian ancestors, their ancient Zoroasterian religion and language. Now with the Southern Arc oaper it seems proto Indo European originated from western Iran and Armenia and developed into proto Indo-Iranian by the likes of Andronovo and Sintashta but Kurds and Persians don’t have direct ancestors according to Eurasian dna but rather have a connection to Yaz and Ariana the ancestors of who (BMAC) admixed with surrounding Andronovo like people.
It’s not 50% EHG but closer to 50% Andronovo according to qpadm https://eurasiandna.com/2659-2/ but keep in mind that Andronovo is only 35-40% EHG. So that would make Turkmenistan-IA about 17-20% EHG. According to Eurasian dna qpadm kurds and persians have close to 30% Yaz Turkmenistan-IA. If you do math Kurds and persians would have received 30% x 18% = 6% EHG from Aryans which is close to Reich Southern Arc paper
Babak
08-31-2022, 02:13 AM
There seems to be alot of confusion about Aryans and Arya. Arya was centered around Herat which was part of the Persian empire and part of the Aryana region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(region). The ancient Aryans were Parthians and Sogdians . Medes who came before Parthians also had some ancestors from that area
Aryana was home to some of Kurd and Persian ancestors, their ancient Zoroasterian religion and language. Now with the Southern Arc oaper it seems proto Indo European originated from western Iran and Armenia and developed into proto Indo-Iranian by the likes of Andronovo and Sintashta but Kurds and Persians don’t have direct ancestors according to Eurasian dna but rather have a connection to Yaz and Ariana the ancestors of who (BMAC) admixed with surrounding Andronovo like people.
It’s not 50% EHG but closer to 50% Andronovo according to qpadm https://eurasiandna.com/2659-2/ but keep in mind that Andronovo is only 35-40% EHG. So that would make Turkmenistan-IA about 17-20% EHG. According to Eurasian dna qpadm kurds and persians have close to 30% Yaz Turkmenistan-IA. If you do math Kurds and persians would have received 30% x 18% = 6% EHG from Aryans which is close to Reich Southern Arc paper
Which further proves assimilation. Whether we have direct ancestors or not, its all assimilation.
The point im trying to make is Iranics of today are Iranicized, unlike Turks, who have legit direct Turkic ancestry.
Which further proves assimilation. Whether we have direct ancestors or not, its all assimilation.
The point im trying to make is Iranics of today are Iranicized, unlike Turks, who have legit direct Turkic ancestry.
Not really. If they were just Iranicized then they would genetically be 100 % Iran-Chl which some Kurds barely have 40% according to qpadm. G25 is absurd because i heard it shows some kurds as 97% 2700 year old Hasanlu. This is absurd because no one in north W. Asia is 97% 300 year old grandparent let alone 2700 year old random person. This is one of the many proofs why G25 is a joke. Only people that are 97% someone from 2700 years ago are inbred isolated islanders.
Which further proves assimilation. Whether we have direct ancestors or not, its all assimilation.
The point im trying to make is Iranics of today are Iranicized, unlike Turks, who have legit direct Turkic ancestry.
But Turks of Turkey are rarely over 25% Medieval Turkic. Even if we assume they were 40-50% East Eurasian. In modern Turkey most people are below 15% East Eurasian. So it's more like a similar situation with the Aryan blood in Iran.
Don't waste your time on Guti's theories.
Not really. If they were just Iranicized then they would genetically be 100 % Iran-Chl which some Kurds barely have 40% according to qpadm. G25 is absurd because i heard it shows some kurds as 97% 2700 year old Hasanlu. This is absurd because no one in north W. Asia is 97% 300 year old grandparent let alone 2700 year old random person. This is one of the many proofs why G25 is a joke. Only people that are 97% someone from 2700 years ago are inbred isolated islanders.
Are you trying to say no ethnic group in West Asia has remained unchanged in the last 300 years? No way. 3000 yes of course, perhaps 1500 too but 300 is a relatively short period of time. Some people can trace their documented ancestors to the 18th century.
Token
08-31-2022, 01:34 PM
Not, who is saying it was proto-Iranic? I heard some theories that there was some connection between proto-Indo-Iranian and proto-Uralic. Proto-Uralic was older than proto-Iranic, so what you are saying doesn't make any sense.
There were also a couple migration waves from BMAC into the Steppes. BMAC was older than Andronovo culture.
https://i.postimg.cc/c4Ryv3Wt/abe4414-f4.jpg
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4414
Nope, there are actual Proto-Iranic loanwords in Proto-Uralic. In Uralic languages Aryan (orja) literally means slave.
This theory doesn't hold up well and can be explained by thousand other things. So, sounds like bull to me. Most likely proto-Uralic predates proto-Iranic and maybe if 'orja' refers to 'Arya' it could even come from the Scythians and not from proto-Iranics.
Eastern Irancis roamed the steppes for a long time and were in contact with the Uralic/Mongoloid people.
Read the Southern Arc paper and according to the writers of that paper proto-Uralics had maybe some proto-Indo-Iranian loanwords. Nothing special to invent crazy theories about it.
The ancient Aryans were Parthians and Sogdians . Medes who came before Parthians also had some ancestors from that area.Nope, actually the Medes predate Parthians and were the original Aryans.
There was an Aryan migration (Medes/Amadai) from Kurdistan into Khorasan area around 1000 BCE.
Nope, there are actual Proto-Iranic loanwords in Proto-Uralic. In Uralic languages Aryan (orja) literally means slave.Read the Southern Arc paper and according to the writers of that paper proto-Uralics had maybe some proto-Indo-Iranian loanwords. Nothing special to invent crazy theories about it.
Not really for any significance here.
Nope, actually the Medes predate Parthians and were the original Aryans.
There was an Aryan migration (Medes/Amadai) from Kurdistan into Khorasan area around 1000 BCE.Diakonoff, I.M. (1985) wrote something about how the Medes dominated the trade routes between Kurdistan and Khorasan
As the region inhabited by Parthians, Parthia first appears as a political entity in Achaemenid lists of governorates ("satrapies") under their dominion. Prior to this, the people of the region seem to have been subjects of the Medes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthia
https://www-cambridge-org.vu-nl.idm.oclc.org/core/books/cambridge-ancient-history/15F28E17C9940E4D3B9E9142D0A245EF
Also this:
Some of Diakonoff's articles deal with the history of eastern and central parts of Asia Minor during the 8th-6th centuries BCE, and his other works are devoted to the ancient cultures of Central Asia. In his article "Vostochnyĭ Iran do Kira" (Eastern Iran before Cyrus; see Diakonoff, 1971a), Diakonoff considered the problems of the origin and allocation of Iranian-speaking tribes in Central Asia, Afghanistan, and Eastern Iran, as well as their history in pre-Achaemenid times, based on the Avestan tradition and in the context of archeological data. According to his opinion, pre-Avestan and Avestan cultures of pre-Achaemend times should be located in Parthia, Margiana, Bactria, and Arachosia and dated to the first half of the 1st millennium BCE.
In collaboration with his brother, Mikhail Diakonoff, and Vladimir Livshits, he participated in the decipherment and study of over two thousand ostraca which were discovered during archaeological excavations at Nisa in Turkmenistan in 1948-61. As these scholars have demonstrated, the above-mentioned ostraca contain economic documents written in Parthian but in Aramaic heterographic script. Later these texts were published by Diakonoff together with V. A. Livshits (Diakonoff, 1960) and then they were edited by D. N. MacKenzie (1926-2001) in Corpus Inscriptionum Iranicarum (Diakonoff, 1976-2002).
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/diakonoff-igor-mikhailovich-1914-1999-russian-orientalist-of-international-standing
The point im trying to make is Iranics of today are Iranicized, unlike Turks, who have legit direct Turkic ancestry.Turks are 100% Turano-Mongoloid monkeys, while real ethnic Kurds and real Persians are 100% Aryans
Diakonoff, I.M. (1985) wrote something about how the Medes dominated the trade routes between Kurdistan and Khorasan
As the region inhabited by Parthians, Parthia first appears as a political entity in Achaemenid lists of governorates ("satrapies") under their dominion. Prior to this, the people of the region seem to have been subjects of the Medes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthia
https://www-cambridge-org.vu-nl.idm.oclc.org/core/books/cambridge-ancient-history/15F28E17C9940E4D3B9E9142D0A245EF
Also this:
Some of Diakonoff's articles deal with the history of eastern and central parts of Asia Minor during the 8th-6th centuries BCE, and his other works are devoted to the ancient cultures of Central Asia. In his article "Vostochnyĭ Iran do Kira" (Eastern Iran before Cyrus; see Diakonoff, 1971a), Diakonoff considered the problems of the origin and allocation of Iranian-speaking tribes in Central Asia, Afghanistan, and Eastern Iran, as well as their history in pre-Achaemenid times, based on the Avestan tradition and in the context of archeological data. According to his opinion, pre-Avestan and Avestan cultures of pre-Achaemend times should be located in Parthia, Margiana, Bactria, and Arachosia and dated to the first half of the 1st millennium BCE.
In collaboration with his brother, Mikhail Diakonoff, and Vladimir Livshits, he participated in the decipherment and study of over two thousand ostraca which were discovered during archaeological excavations at Nisa in Turkmenistan in 1948-61. As these scholars have demonstrated, the above-mentioned ostraca contain economic documents written in Parthian but in Aramaic heterographic script. Later these texts were published by Diakonoff together with V. A. Livshits (Diakonoff, 1960) and then they were edited by D. N. MacKenzie (1926-2001) in Corpus Inscriptionum Iranicarum (Diakonoff, 1976-2002).
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/diakonoff-igor-mikhailovich-1914-1999-russian-orientalist-of-international-standingThe Medes predate the Parthians because the Median Empire predates the Parthian Empire. In turn Parthians themselves were for a huge part the Medes themselves, because the spoke the language of the Medes.
Parthia is a historical region located in north-eastern Iran. It was conquered and subjugated by the empire of the Medes during the 7th century BC, was incorporated into the subsequent Achaemenid Empire under Cyrus the Great in the 6th century BC, and formed part of the Hellenistic Seleucid Empire following the 4th-century-BC conquests of Alexander the Great. The region later served as the political and cultural base of the Eastern-Iranian Parni people and Arsacid dynasty, rulers of the Parthian Empire (247 BC – 224 AD). The Sasanian Empire, the last state of pre-Islamic Iran, also held the region and maintained the Seven Parthian clans as part of their feudal aristocracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthia
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 06:42 PM
Which further proves assimilation. Whether we have direct ancestors or not, its all assimilation.
The point im trying to make is Iranics of today are Iranicized, unlike Turks, who have legit direct Turkic ancestry.
Iranics are no more “Iranicized” than Turks are Turkicized. About 20% of the autosomal profile of western Iranic (Kurds, Lurs, Persians etc) is steppe derived and the remainder is mostly BMAC derived.
Just check the Iron Age Hasanlu samples - they are identical to modern Kurds.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 06:45 PM
Not really. If they were just Iranicized then they would genetically be 100 % Iran-Chl which some Kurds barely have 40% according to qpadm. G25 is absurd because i heard it shows some kurds as 97% 2700 year old Hasanlu. This is absurd because no one in north W. Asia is 97% 300 year old grandparent let alone 2700 year old random person. This is one of the many proofs why G25 is a joke. Only people that are 97% someone from 2700 years ago are inbred isolated islanders.
It just proves that that the ethnogenesis of Kurds was complete in the Iron Age. Why is it ridiculous that Kurds are genetically identical to the Iron Age samples?
Nope, actually the Medes predate Parthians and were the original Aryans.
There was an Aryan migration (Medes/Amadai) from Kurdistan into Khorasan area around 1000 BCE.
I was referring to the late iron age inhabitants and Arya and Aryana being Parthians and Sogdians. I Don’t have enough info on Medes
Windfuhr identified Kurdish dialects as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum. Windfuhr and Frye assume an eastern origin for Kurdish and consider it as related to eastern and central Iranian dialects.[23][24] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_languages
https://i.imgur.com/jtbamFv.jpg
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 07:59 PM
I was referring to the late iron age inhabitants and Arya and Aryana being Parthians and Sogdians. I Don’t have enough info on Medes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_languages
https://i.imgur.com/jtbamFv.jpg
Okay, so how can Kurdish descend from Parthian if Kurds have been mentioned in the history books prior to the Parthian and even alongside the Parthians e.g Corduene. Classical Kurds and Parthians were two separate peoples.
It just proves that that the ethnogenesis of Kurds was complete in the Iron Age. Why is it ridiculous that Kurds are genetically identical to the Iron Age samples?
Not just kurds anyone from that crossroad part of the world can’t be 95% of some 2700 year old sample. It’s not only logical but qpadm analysis also supports it
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:03 PM
Not just kurds anyone from that crossroad part of the world can’t be 95% of some 2700 year old sample. It’s not only logical but qpadm analysis also supports it
It’s not just one sample - it is multiple. If those individuals were alive today they would be indistinguishable to other Kurds and you already know this.
Okay, so how can Kurdish descend from Parthian if Kurds have been mentioned in the history books prior to the Parthian and even alongside the Parthians e.g Corduene. Classical Kurds and Parthians were two separate peoples.
Feyli Kurdish or “Kurdi-ye Vali” as a northwestern Iranian dialect is closer to the Parthian. Past perfect tense is attested in the Parthian literature and it also exists in the Feyli Kurdish,
Parthian and Feyli Kurdish have a same method to construct the past perfect tense. Indeed, the historical process of the formation of the past perfect is not different in Parthian and Feyli Kurdish. https://sciarena.com/storage/models/article/1cT7DHpSI4OBismLBycckf62seQ5k3VK7JgHdfg2pc3U8kDYOp hSWBPi8EA1/past-perfect-tense-from-old-iranian-to-feyli-dialects.pdf
https://youtu.be/Qp0vd3OTlLo
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:16 PM
. https://sciarena.com/storage/models/article/1cT7DHpSI4OBismLBycckf62seQ5k3VK7JgHdfg2pc3U8kDYOp hSWBPi8EA1/past-perfect-tense-from-old-iranian-to-feyli-dialects.pdf
https://youtu.be/Qp0vd3OTlLo
Most of those words are the same/similar to other dialects. In fact, Feyli is classified as southern Kurmanj.
Plus - no one denies the similarities between Parthian and Kurdish. It is simply chronologically impossible for the Kurdish language to stem from Parthian.
Token
08-31-2022, 08:27 PM
Read the Southern Arc paper and according to the writers of that paper proto-Uralics had maybe some proto-Indo-Iranian loanwords. Nothing special to invent crazy theories about it.
Not really for any significance here.
The Southern Arc paper agrees that the Indo-Iranians came from the steppe. Dozens of Proto-Indo-Iranic and Proto-Iranic loanwords into Proto-Uralic and Proto-Finno-Ugric, including the fact that "Aryan" in Proto-Uralic (a Siberian hunter-gatherer language) means slave, prove that the Indo-Iranians lived in the northern steppes and not in western Asia, which is the dominant view among linguists and archaeologists.
Pre-Indo-Iranian
*ertä ‘side’, *kekrä ‘wheel’, *kečrä ‘spindle’, *mekši ‘bee’, (*meti ‘honey’), *ońća ‘part’,
(*orpa ‘orphan’), *peijas ‘feast’, *pejmä ‘milk’, Pre-P *pertä ‘wing’, *repä ‘fox’, *rećmä
‘rope’, *sejti ‘bridge’
Proto-Indo-Iranian
*aćtara ‘whip’, *anti/onta, *ora ‘awl’, *orja ‘slave; south’, (*orpa ‘orphan’), *pośi ‘penis’,
*śaŋka ‘handle’, Pre-Md *śaγa ‘goat’, *śarwi ‘horn’, *śaδa- ‘to rain’, śara- ‘shit’, *śi̮ta
‘hundred’, Pre-P *śVta ‘hundred’, *śasra ‘thousand’, *śišta ‘wax’, *śoma- ‘sad’, *waćara
‘hammer’, *woraći ‘boar’
Uncertain cases
*ćaŋka- ‘to sting’, *ćara- ‘brown; ? to dawn’, *ćarapa ‘elk’, *ćero ‘hill-top’,? *ćerti ‘group’,
*porćas, PUg *śeŋkV ‘nail’
Proto-Iranian
(*ačwa ‘horse’) *mača ‘insect’, *očra ‘barley’, *počaw ‘reindeer’, *päčäɣ ‘reindeer’, *serä
‘old’, *šoji- ‘to care’, *šukta ‘burnt patch’
Ambiguous early loans (can be either from PII or PI)
*ajša ‘shaft’, *asVra ‘lord’, *iha ‘yearning. passion’, *ihta ‘lust’, *jama ‘twin’, *jawi/jowa
(> Mo juv) ‘awn’, *jawi (> PS *jäə̑) ‘flour’, *ji̮ni ‘way, path’, *juma ‘god’, *kana- ‘to dig’,
*kara- ‘to dig’, *kata- ‘to graze’, *kertä- ‘to bind’, *ki̮ntaw ‘tree stump’, *kürtńV ‘iron’, PKh
*kǟrtV ‘iron’, *kärtä ‘iron’, *martas ‘dead’, *ńātV- ‘to help’, *pakas ‘god’, *para ‘good’,
Kh pĕnt ‘way’, PMs *pē̮ńtV ‘brother-in-law’, *pora ‘old’, *poči- ‘to boil’, Pre-P *porta
‘vessel’, *puntaksi ‘bottom’, Pre-Ma *pänti- ‘to bind’, PMa *pärća ‘ear of corn’, *pätäri- ‘to
flee’, *saγi- ‘to get, obtain’, *sampas ‘pillar’, *saŋka ‘old’, *sara ‘lake’, *sasara ‘sister’,
*säptä ‘seven’, *tajwas ‘sky’, *takra ‘piece of flesh’, *tarna ‘grass’, *tojwV ‘wish’, *toraksi
‘through’, *tora- ‘to fight’, *täjV ‘milk’, *täjinV ‘cow’, *täši, *uška ‘bull’, *wakša- (> PS
*wåtå-) ‘to grow’, *wajna- ‘to see’, *wojna- ‘to see’, *wiša ‘venom’, *wi̮rna ‘wool’, *wärkä
‘kidney’, PS *wǝ̑rkǝ̑ ‘wolf’, *wirtV- ‘to hold, raise’, *äŋkärä ‘coal’
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/307582/INDO-IRA.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Keep coping Kurd.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:30 PM
The Southern Arc paper agrees that the Indo-Iranians came from the steppe. Dozens of Proto-Indo-Iranic and Proto-Iranic loanwords into Proto-Uralic and Proto-Finno-Ugric, including the fact that "Aryan" in Proto-Uralic (a Siberian hunter-gatherer language) means slave, prove that the Indo-Iranians lived in the northern steppes and not in western Asia, which is the dominant view among linguists and archaeologists. Keep coping Kurd.
Seethe
The Southern Arc paper agrees that the Indo-Iranians came from the steppe. Dozens of Proto-Indo-Iranic and Proto-Iranic loanwords into Proto-Uralic and Proto-Finno-Ugric, including the fact that "Aryan" in Proto-Uralic (a Siberian hunter-gatherer language) means slave, prove that the Indo-Iranians lived in the northern steppes and not in western Asia, which is the dominant view among linguists and archaeologists.
Pre-Indo-Iranian
*ertä ‘side’, *kekrä ‘wheel’, *kečrä ‘spindle’, *mekši ‘bee’, (*meti ‘honey’), *ońća ‘part’,
(*orpa ‘orphan’), *peijas ‘feast’, *pejmä ‘milk’, Pre-P *pertä ‘wing’, *repä ‘fox’, *rećmä
‘rope’, *sejti ‘bridge’
Proto-Indo-Iranian
*aćtara ‘whip’, *anti/onta, *ora ‘awl’, *orja ‘slave; south’, (*orpa ‘orphan’), *pośi ‘penis’,
*śaŋka ‘handle’, Pre-Md *śaγa ‘goat’, *śarwi ‘horn’, *śaδa- ‘to rain’, śara- ‘shit’, *śi̮ta
‘hundred’, Pre-P *śVta ‘hundred’, *śasra ‘thousand’, *śišta ‘wax’, *śoma- ‘sad’, *waćara
‘hammer’, *woraći ‘boar’
Uncertain cases
*ćaŋka- ‘to sting’, *ćara- ‘brown; ? to dawn’, *ćarapa ‘elk’, *ćero ‘hill-top’,? *ćerti ‘group’,
*porćas, PUg *śeŋkV ‘nail’
Proto-Iranian
(*ačwa ‘horse’) *mača ‘insect’, *očra ‘barley’, *počaw ‘reindeer’, *päčäɣ ‘reindeer’, *serä
‘old’, *šoji- ‘to care’, *šukta ‘burnt patch’
Ambiguous early loans (can be either from PII or PI)
*ajša ‘shaft’, *asVra ‘lord’, *iha ‘yearning. passion’, *ihta ‘lust’, *jama ‘twin’, *jawi/jowa
(> Mo juv) ‘awn’, *jawi (> PS *jäə̑) ‘flour’, *ji̮ni ‘way, path’, *juma ‘god’, *kana- ‘to dig’,
*kara- ‘to dig’, *kata- ‘to graze’, *kertä- ‘to bind’, *ki̮ntaw ‘tree stump’, *kürtńV ‘iron’, PKh
*kǟrtV ‘iron’, *kärtä ‘iron’, *martas ‘dead’, *ńātV- ‘to help’, *pakas ‘god’, *para ‘good’,
Kh pĕnt ‘way’, PMs *pē̮ńtV ‘brother-in-law’, *pora ‘old’, *poči- ‘to boil’, Pre-P *porta
‘vessel’, *puntaksi ‘bottom’, Pre-Ma *pänti- ‘to bind’, PMa *pärća ‘ear of corn’, *pätäri- ‘to
flee’, *saγi- ‘to get, obtain’, *sampas ‘pillar’, *saŋka ‘old’, *sara ‘lake’, *sasara ‘sister’,
*säptä ‘seven’, *tajwas ‘sky’, *takra ‘piece of flesh’, *tarna ‘grass’, *tojwV ‘wish’, *toraksi
‘through’, *tora- ‘to fight’, *täjV ‘milk’, *täjinV ‘cow’, *täši, *uška ‘bull’, *wakša- (> PS
*wåtå-) ‘to grow’, *wajna- ‘to see’, *wojna- ‘to see’, *wiša ‘venom’, *wi̮rna ‘wool’, *wärkä
‘kidney’, PS *wǝ̑rkǝ̑ ‘wolf’, *wirtV- ‘to hold, raise’, *äŋkärä ‘coal’
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/307582/INDO-IRA.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Keep coping Kurd.
How would those hunter-gatherers have held Aryans as slaves? They must have been superior to Aryans :confused:
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:36 PM
How would those hunter-gatherers have held Aryans as slaves? They must have been superior to Aryans :confused:
Early Indo-Iranians dominated everyone in their path and even took down the biggest empire the world had ever seen in the Iron Age. Slave my ass.
Token
08-31-2022, 08:41 PM
Early Indo-Iranians dominated everyone in their path and even took down the biggest empire the world had ever seen in the Iron Age. Slave my ass.
Finno-Permians still use "Aryan" as synonymous of slave, lmfao
Early Indo-Iranians dominated everyone in their path and even took down the biggest empire the world had ever seen in the Iron Age. Slave my ass.
Well, somehow the Uralics managed to extirpate the Indo-Iranians from the Volga-Ural region. Russian Uralics have a shit ton of Steppe ancestry and some of them show double digit amounts of R1a.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:42 PM
Finno-Permians still use "Aryan" as synonymous of slave, lmfao
Except in Iranian languages it is not pronounced “Aryan” - this is a European rendering. It is pronounced Arî in Kurdish, Aryayî in Persian. It is etymologically unrelated and means noble.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:44 PM
Well, somehow the Uralics managed to extirpate the Indo-Iranians from the Volga-Ural region. Russian Uralics have a shit ton of Steppe ancestry and some of them show double digit amounts of R1a.
R1a-Z93 is related to Indo-Iranians. If anything that suggests the complete opposite - but then again I am not familiar with Uralics and I don’t like to make claims out of my ass like this Token dude
Everyone wants to be Aryan because it's often understood as racially superior, mighty and good-looking. :D :cool:
R1a-Z93 is related to Indo-Iranians. If anything that suggests the complete opposite - but then again I am not familiar with Uralics and I don’t like to make claims out of my ass like this Token dude
It suggests that Uralic speakers might have assimilated IE speakers, hence the R1a in the region.
Token is a self-purported academic scholar, you should listen to him ;)
Token
08-31-2022, 08:47 PM
Except in Iranian languages it is not pronounced “Aryan” - this is a European rendering. It is pronounced Arî in Kurdish, Aryayî in Persian. It is etymologically unrelated and means noble.
All of them stem from Proto-Indo-Iranian *arya so it doesn't matter, in Uralic slave is still "orja" (from PII *arya). Your ancestors were enslaved by Siberian hunter-gatherer tribes and this is still remembered by their descendants.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:49 PM
It suggests that Uralic speakers might have assimilated IE speakers, hence the R1a in the region.
Token is a self-purported academic scholar, you should listen to him ;)
Or maybe early Indo-Iranian men had some fun with Uralic ladies?
The Southern Arc paper agrees that the Indo-Iranians came from the steppe. Dozens of Proto-Indo-Iranic and Proto-Iranic loanwords into Proto-Uralic and Proto-Finno-Ugric, including the fact that "Aryan" in Proto-Uralic (a Siberian hunter-gatherer language) means slave, prove that the Indo-Iranians lived in the northern steppes and not in western Asia, which is the dominant view among linguists and archaeologists.Lol.
Once again it is proto-Indo-Iranian and they don't discuss proto-Iranian. Furthermore the ARYAN Medes were Western-Iranian. The gap in time and space between proto-Indo-Iranian is and Western-Iranian is huge.
Think of proto-Balto-Slavic and Western-Slavic languages. The gap in time and space between proto-Balto-Slavic and Western-Slavic is huge.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:49 PM
All of them stem from Proto-Indo-Iranian *arya so it doesn't matter, in Uralic slave is still "orja" (from PII *arya). Your ancestors were enslaved by Siberian hunter-gatherer tribes and this is still remembered by their descendants.
I didn’t even know what an Uralic was until I spoke to you subhuman
Token
08-31-2022, 08:54 PM
I didn’t even know what an Uralic was until I spoke to you subhuman
You didn't know what an Uralic was, but Uralics still remember you orja as a race of slaves. Bow down before your Uralic enslavers :laugh:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/d4/21/a2d4219177ccadebc98cdad5cf93d821.jpg
Early Indo-Iranians dominated everyone in their path and even took down the biggest empire the world had ever seen in the Iron Age. Slave my ass.But you fail to understand that the Medes were not Indo-Iranians by any sense.
The Medes were ARYANS, with other words Western-Iranians. Western-Iranians were already separated from the proto-Indo-Europeans, proto-Indo-Iranians, proto-Iranians by thousands of years.
Kurds (language, religion and culture) are derived from the Western-Iranics (Medes) and not from the proto-Indo-Iranians.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 08:59 PM
You didn't know what an Uralic was, but Uralics still remember you orja as a race of slaves. Bow down before your Uralic enslavers :laugh:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/d4/21/a2d4219177ccadebc98cdad5cf93d821.jpg
Hold up lol how does this even suggest Uralics enslaved Aryans?
Traditionally taken as a borrowing from the Proto-Indo-Iranian autonym *áryas, or from an earlier stage of development (practically Proto-Indo-European) *óryos, with meaning 'slave' developing in a similar way as Latin sclavus (“slave”) from Sclavus (“Slav”).[1] EVE supports this etymology and argues that the meaning "south, southener" is a parallel development from the Indo-Aryan endonym through the meaning "a people living south".[2]
They have a common root but it doesn’t mean the same thing nor does it suggest Siberian hunter-gatherers enslaved Aryans lmao
Okay, this is descending into trolling again. Let's ban Guti and close the thread for starters. :swl
I was referring to the late iron age inhabitants and Arya and Aryana being Parthians and Sogdians. I don't have enough info on MedesIf you don't have enough info on the Medes you should stop talking.
Because it is the Medes that concern mostly the Kurds and not 'other Iranics'.
Parthians derived from the Medes and not the other way around. The Medes called themselves 'Aryans' even long before Parthians came into the existence.
If you don't have enough info on the Medes you should stop talking.
Because it is the Medes that concern mostly the Kurds and not 'other Iranics'.
Parthians derived from the Medes and not the other way around. The Medes called themselves 'Aryans' even long before Parthians came into the existence.
The Yaghnobi people are THE most Aryanic group of people that is still extant. They also have little Mongoloid/East Eurasian. They're almost 50/50 Andronovo/BMAC. A living fossil.
Turks are 100% Turano-Mongoloid monkeys, while real ethnic Kurds and real Persians are 100% Aryans
Lol. A Turk in some comment section or on Telegram once told me Kurds are "darker than his shit" when I implied Kurds are closer to whites because of their IE language.
Apparently Kurds are seen as chernozhopy in Turkey.
Token
08-31-2022, 09:05 PM
Hold up lol how does this even suggest Uralics enslaved Aryans?
Traditionally taken as a borrowing from the Proto-Indo-Iranian autonym *áryas, or from an earlier stage of development (practically Proto-Indo-European) *óryos, with meaning 'slave' developing in a similar way as Latin sclavus (“slave”) from Sclavus (“Slav”).[1] EVE supports this etymology and argues that the meaning "south, southener" is a parallel development from the Indo-Aryan endonym through the meaning "a people living south".[2]
They have a common root but it doesn’t mean the same thing nor does it suggest Siberian hunter-gatherers enslaved Aryans lmao
Are all Kurds extraordinarily dumb like you and Guti? For what other reason would they borrow the word that Indo-Iranians used to refer to themselves and give it the meaning of slave, genius?
Most of those words are the same/similar to other dialects. In fact, Feyli is classified as southern Kurmanj.
Plus - no one denies the similarities between Parthian and Kurdish. It is simply chronologically impossible for the Kurdish language to stem from Parthian.Parthian was derived from the Median, but maybe with some Scythian features. Later on when Kurdistan was under the Parthian rule for let say 500 years, some places in Kurdistan were influenced by the Parthian dialect and I think a split within Kurdic occurred because of the Parthian dialect.
The split between Kurmanji and Gorani/Zazaki could have occurred because of the Parthians.
Parthian was a Western Middle Iranian language. Language contact made it share some features of the Eastern Iranian language group, the influence of which is attested primarily in loanwords.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_language
Lol. A Turk in some comment section or on Telegram once told me Kurds are "darker than his shit" when I implied Kurds are closer to whites because of their IE language.
Apparently Kurds are seen as chernozhopy in Turkey.I don't care how dark or light Turks and Kurds are, but my people see the Turks/Tatars as subhumans. People with whom we should never mix with to downgrade our race.
:thumb001:
Fact is that we as Aryans don't like to mix with the 'dirty' Turks. So tell me, who is considering whom of a lower race?
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 09:15 PM
Are all Kurds extraordinarily dumb like you and Guti? For what other reason would they borrow the word that Indo-Iranians used to refer to themselves and give it the meaning of slave, genius?
Self-designated linguist are you? Lmao let me explain:
or from an earlier stage of development (practically Proto-Indo-European) *óryos, with meaning 'slave'
EVE supports this etymology and argues that the meaning "south, southener" is a parallel development from the Indo-Aryan endonym through the meaning "a people living south
According to this the term for slave developed from proto-Indo-European *Óryos. The term for southerner developed from Proto-Indo-Iranian (or Indo-Aryan as it states) *Aryas.
It doesn’t make sense for the term to develop from Proto-Indo-Iranian which is usually associated with the Sintashta - Andronovo cultures. The Sintashta are known, for example, for assimilating the neighbouring BMAC culture.
PLUS it does not even chronologically add up. You guys were still hunter gatherers whilst we were building cities and chariots? And you think you enslaved us? Lmao
I don't care how dark or light Turks and Kurds are, but my people see the Turks/Tatars as subhumans. People with whom we should never mix with to downgrade our race.
:thumb001:
Fact is that we as Aryans don't like to mix with the 'dirty' Turks. So tell me, who is considering whom of a lower race?
Turks and (Volga) Tatars don't look alike. And an average Kurd is very similar to Azerbaijanis for example. So I call bullshit on that.
Token
08-31-2022, 09:22 PM
Self-designated linguist are you? Lmao let me explain:
or from an earlier stage of development (practically Proto-Indo-European) *óryos, with meaning 'slave'
EVE supports this etymology and argues that the meaning "south, southener" is a parallel development from the Indo-Aryan endonym through the meaning "a people living south
According to this the term for slave developed from proto-Indo-European *Óryos. The term for southerner developed from Proto-Indo-Iranian (or Indo-Aryan as it states) *Aryas.
It doesn’t make sense for the term to develop from Proto-Indo-Iranian which is usually associated with the Sintashta - Andronovo cultures. The Sintashta are known, for example, for assimilating the neighbouring BMAC culture.
Source: wikipedia, LOL
*orja can only be explained as an Indo-Iranian loan, because the word has no
cognates in other languages of the Indo-European family.
Fi orja ‘slave’; SaN oarji ‘south; west’ (cognates in all Saami languages < PSa
*oarjē); Md E uŕe, M uŕä ‘slave’; Ud war ‘slave, servant’
< PU *orja ‘slave’ (UEW s.v. orja; Zhivlov 2014: 138; Aikio 2015b: 61)
← PII *ā́rya-, > OI ā́rya-, Av airiia-, OP ariya- (Thieme 1938; EWAia I: 174–75,
s.v. ā́rya; Schneider 2010: 102–103)
(Paasonen 1896: 49; Joki 1973: 297; Burrow 1976: 61; Katz 1985: 204–207; 2003: 168;
Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1984: 924; Rédei 1986c: 54–55; Katz 1987: 452; Szemerényi 1988:
174–175; Lushnikova 1990; Parpola 1999: 196–197; Sammallahti 2001: 408; Holopainen
2018b: 153–154; Kümmel 2018a)
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/307582/INDO-IRA.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 09:25 PM
Source: wikipedia, LOL
*orja can only be explained as an Indo-Iranian loan, because the word has no
cognates in other languages of the Indo-European family.
Fi orja ‘slave’; SaN oarji ‘south; west’ (cognates in all Saami languages < PSa
*oarjē); Md E uŕe, M uŕä ‘slave’; Ud war ‘slave, servant’
< PU *orja ‘slave’ (UEW s.v. orja; Zhivlov 2014: 138; Aikio 2015b: 61)
← PII *ā́rya-, > OI ā́rya-, Av airiia-, OP ariya- (Thieme 1938; EWAia I: 174–75,
s.v. ā́rya; Schneider 2010: 102–103)
(Paasonen 1896: 49; Joki 1973: 297; Burrow 1976: 61; Katz 1985: 204–207; 2003: 168;
Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1984: 924; Rédei 1986c: 54–55; Katz 1987: 452; Szemerényi 1988:
174–175; Lushnikova 1990; Parpola 1999: 196–197; Sammallahti 2001: 408; Holopainen
2018b: 153–154; Kümmel 2018a)
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/307582/INDO-IRA.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Seethe. You didn’t have an issue with the source until you realized you interpreted it incorrectly :laugh:
Turks and (Volga) Tatars don't look alike. And an average Kurd is very similar to Azerbaijanis for example. So I call bullshit on that.I don't know if you know it, but I am from Tbilisi.
In Tbilisi, Azeris were the lowest of the lowest. Uneducated people who didn’t speak properly Georgian or Russian and who sold tomatoes on the markets. Georgians called them 'Tatari'. Georgians use/used 'Tatari' like a dirty word, similar to 'Gypsy', 'Nigger' or something.
We Ezdi Kurds call the Azeri 'Ajam' as a swear word.
If somebody from my people would marry an Azeri that person would become ashamed big time and would be deleted from our community.
Overall, Georgians (from Tbilisi) held Ezdi Kurds in a higher regard than the Russians or Armenians let alone the Azeri. The most respectable 'wori w zakone' were the Ezdi Kurds. For a small population like us the Ezdi Kurds in the USSR countries we have relatively speaking the most higher educated people and even highly respected 'wori w zakone', after the Russians of course.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 09:32 PM
AHAHAHAHAHA @Token you are Brazilian and you want to talk about slavery? :laugh: :laugh:
I don't know if you know it, but I am from Tbilisi.
In Tbilisi, Azeris were the lowest of the lowest. Uneducated people who didn’t speak properly Georgian or Russian and who sold tomatoes on the markets. Georgians called them 'Tatari' and we Ezdi Kurds called the Azeri 'Ajam' as a swear word.
If somebody from my people would marry an Azeri that person would become ashamed big time and would be deleted from our community.
Overall Georgians (from Tbilisi) held Ezdi Kurds in higher regard than the Russians or Armenians let alone the Azeri. The most respectable 'wori w zakone' were the Ezdi Kurds. For a small population like us the Ezdi Kurds in the USSR countries relatively speaking we have the most higher educated people and even highly respected 'wori w zakone', after the Russians of course.
How old were you when you left Tbilisi for Europe? I assume you're in your mid to high thirties and immigrated as a child, right?
How old were you when you left Tbilisi for Europe? I assume you're in your mid to high thirties and immigrated as a child, right?I am 40+ and I was just turned a teenager when my dad fled Georgia during a short conflict (civil war) in Georgia right after the collapse of the USSR. I just finished the sixth class of the secondary education (Soviet era) when we moved out.
Babak
08-31-2022, 09:50 PM
I don't know if you know it, but I am from Tbilisi.
In Tbilisi, Azeris were the lowest of the lowest. Uneducated people who didn’t speak properly Georgian or Russian and who sold tomatoes on the markets. Georgians called them 'Tatari'. Georgians use/used 'Tatari' like a dirty word, similar to 'Gypsy', 'Nigger' or something.
We Ezdi Kurds call the Azeri 'Ajam' as a swear word.
If somebody from my people would marry an Azeri that person would become ashamed big time and would be deleted from our community.
Overall, Georgians (from Tbilisi) held Ezdi Kurds in a higher regard than the Russians or Armenians let alone the Azeri. The most respectable 'wori w zakone' were the Ezdi Kurds. For a small population like us the Ezdi Kurds in the USSR countries we have relatively speaking the most higher educated people and even highly respected 'wori w zakone', after the Russians of course.
Azerbaijani azeris right? Iranian azerbaijanis are very educated and orderly people.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 10:00 PM
@Token why did you disappear? Show us your beautiful Brazilian face baby I wanna see that slave DNA in you
Babak
08-31-2022, 10:06 PM
Iranics are no more “Iranicized” than Turks are Turkicized. About 20% of the autosomal profile of western Iranic (Kurds, Lurs, Persians etc) is steppe derived and the remainder is mostly BMAC derived.
Just check the Iron Age Hasanlu samples - they are identical to modern Kurds.
Yea i checked. Good point
Token
08-31-2022, 10:11 PM
AHAHAHAHAHA @Token you are Brazilian and you want to talk about slavery? :laugh: :laugh:
So what? Does this changes the fact that the Indo-Iranians were so thoroughly enslaved by a bunch of Siberian mongoloid hunters that they are still remembered by Uralics as slaves to this day?
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 10:14 PM
So what? Does this changes the fact that the Indo-Iranians were so thoroughly enslaved by a bunch of Siberian mongoloid hunters that they are still remembered by Uralics as slaves to this day?
Show us your face baby boi your ancestors are probably from Angola
Token
08-31-2022, 10:16 PM
Show us your face baby boi your ancestors are probably from Angola
Cope.
Halgurd
08-31-2022, 10:19 PM
Cope.
You’re boring me now - slaves like you are easily disposable. Didn’t the Portuguese teach you any better?
Token
08-31-2022, 10:30 PM
You’re boring me now - slaves like you are easily disposable. Didn’t the Portuguese teach you any better?
None of my ancestors were in Brazil before the 20th century and all of them were smallholder farmers since ever. You Kurds, on the other hand, are getting btfoed by Turks since the medieval era. Where's da Kurdistan?
Babak
08-31-2022, 10:33 PM
Guys, stop. Enough of the insults.
Azerbaijani azeris right? Iranian azerbaijanis are very educated and orderly people.Of course Azeris or the Anatolian Turks in their country are at home. I was talking about Tatars outside their countries and most of them don't integrate very well.
Also, as far as I know ethnic Persians can be also 'chauvinistic' toward other people in Iran.
Boudin
08-31-2022, 11:36 PM
Rafidhas and pajeets on suicide watch.
How'd you make the map in your signature?
Babak
08-31-2022, 11:38 PM
Of course Azeris or the Anatolian Turks in their country are at home. I was talking about Tatars outside their countries and most of them don't integrate very well.
Also, as far as I know ethnic Persians can be also 'chauvinistic' toward other people in Iran.
Probably towards afghans and iraqis. Mostly afghans, but thats it.
Dont think anyone has time to be "chauvinistic" in a collapsing country lmao
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