Very strange Eurogenes K15 result

[thracian_bro]

This Gedmatch kit's K15 oracle is shown as being entirely Celto-Germanic, with closest numbers to English/Irish/Orcadian and Scandinavian people. Yet when I plot this kit on the K15 PCA, its shown as plotting considerably south of where these pure Celtic and Scandinavian kits would normally plot. On the PCA, it's closer to where Southern French people cluster than to where pure Celtic and Scandinavian people cluster, despite the oracle saying the _exact_ opposite. Why is this?
https://i.imgur.com/hMOhKXI_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southeast_English @ 2.690596
2 Southwest_English @ 3.638327
3 Irish @ 4.411362
4 West_Scottish @ 4.733000
5 Danish @ 5.763469
6 Orcadian @ 5.962631
7 North_Dutch @ 6.238211
8 North_German @ 6.481818
9 South_Dutch @ 6.892420
10 West_German @ 9.364634
11 Norwegian @ 10.662247
12 French @ 11.290349
13 West_Norwegian @ 11.432840
14 Swedish @ 12.169282
15 North_Swedish @ 14.936138
16 East_German @ 15.707504
17 Austrian @ 19.547550
18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 19.629175
19 Southwest_Finnish @ 19.630615
20 Spanish_Galicia @ 20.093840

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Southeast_English +50% Southeast_English @ 2.690596


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Southeast_English +25% Southeast_English +25% Southwest_English @ 2.689685


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 French + Irish + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.377117
2 French + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.383279
3 French + Orcadian + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 2.404066
4 French + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.411949
5 French + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.413728
6 Orcadian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 2.413823
7 French + Irish + Irish + Orcadian @ 2.417645
8 French + Irish + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.437532
9 French + Irish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.442470
10 Irish + Orcadian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.519465
11 French + Irish + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 2.519633
12 South_Dutch + Southeast_English + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 2.524855
13 French + Irish + Irish + West_Scottish @ 2.539891
14 Orcadian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 2.566201
15 Danish + French + Irish + Orcadian @ 2.583305
16 Orcadian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English + Southwest_English @ 2.584993
17 Irish + South_Dutch + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 2.600107
18 Danish + French + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.612658
19 Danish + French + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.619711
20 Irish + Orcadian + South_Dutch + Southwest_English @ 2.623353

[thracian_bro]

For reference, the green dot is the kit in the OP. Red circle is where NW Europeans typically cluster, blue circle is where SW Europeans typically cluster. It falls right in between. Which is weird, since users who have the same NW-shifted oracle will plot well within the red circle.
https://i.imgur.com/j6uXJMS_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[J. Ketch]

Honestly, that K15 map is a crappy inaccurate way of plotting people, and I'm surprised it's still so popular here.

[vbnetkhio]

This Gedmatch kit's K15 oracle is shown as being entirely Celto-Germanic,

is that one of the kits i posted?

[vbnetkhio]

---

[thracian_bro]

Honestly, that K15 map is a crappy inaccurate way of plotting people, and I'm surprised it's still so popular here.


I don't look at the reference populations on the map as much as I do the distances which different inputted kits plot. They still generally follow the trend of populations in the same ethnicity grouping close together. I don't know why this kit wouldn't do the same. I used yours as a comparison for example and it was quite far from the OP kit.

[thracian_bro]

---

[thracian_bro]

is that one of the kits i posted?

No.

[Ibericus]

Are you sure he is putting the right coordinates on the map ?

[thracian_bro]

Are you sure he is putting the right coordinates on the map ?

Yes, I quadruple checked and it still plots exactly here, between South France/Iberia/NE Italy and NW Europe. Here's the admixture for example, it'll always spit out X: 297, Y: 176
North_Sea 34.45 Pct
Atlantic 29.57 Pct
Baltic 8.64 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.04 Pct
West_Med 8.50 Pct
West_Asian 4.13 Pct
East_Med 2.57 Pct
Red_Sea 0.87 Pct
South_Asian 1.61 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 0.11 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 1.50 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, I quadruple checked and it still plots exactly here, between South France/Iberia/NE Italy and NW Europe. Here's the admixture for example, it'll always spit out X: 297, Y: 176
North_Sea 34.45 Pct
Atlantic 29.57 Pct
Baltic 8.64 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.04 Pct
West_Med 8.50 Pct
West_Asian 4.13 Pct
East_Med 2.57 Pct
Red_Sea 0.87 Pct
South_Asian 1.61 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 0.11 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 1.50 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

post his oracle (not oracle-4)?

and could you post the k15 admixture results of one of the normal plotting British/Irish kits, for comparison?

[Lemgrant]

Yes, I quadruple checked and it still plots exactly here, between South France/Iberia/NE Italy and NW Europe. Here's the admixture for example, it'll always spit out X: 297, Y: 176
North_Sea 34.45 Pct
Atlantic 29.57 Pct
Baltic 8.64 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.04 Pct
West_Med 8.50 Pct
West_Asian 4.13 Pct
East_Med 2.57 Pct
Red_Sea 0.87 Pct
South_Asian 1.61 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 0.11 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 1.50 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

I plotted him on 3d k15 pca in rstudio > https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?177271-Tutorial-for-autosomal-calculators&p=6169153&viewfull=1#post6169153
He plots close to Southeast_English
https://i.imgur.com/3SgtFAF.png

[thracian_bro]

post his oracle (not oracle-4)?

and could you post the k15 admixture results of one of the normal plotting British/Irish kits, for comparison?

OP kit oracle:
1 97.6% Southeast_English + 2.4% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 1.67
2 97.6% Southeast_English + 2.4% Somali @ 1.67
3 97.5% Southeast_English + 2.5% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 1.68
4 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 1.69
5 97.3% Southeast_English + 2.7% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 1.7
6 98% Southeast_English + 2% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 1.74
7 98.2% Southeast_English + 1.8% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 1.92
8 98% Southeast_English + 2% Maasai @ 1.94
9 98.1% Southeast_English + 1.9% Hadza @ 1.95
10 97.2% Southeast_English + 2.8% Makrani @ 2.01
11 98.1% Southeast_English + 1.9% Sandawe @ 2.01
12 97.2% Southeast_English + 2.8% Brahui @ 2.02
13 97.2% Southeast_English + 2.8% Balochi @ 2.03
14 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Sindhi @ 2.03
15 97.3% Southeast_English + 2.7% Pathan @ 2.06
16 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Burusho @ 2.07
17 97% Southeast_English + 3% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.07
18 97.3% Southeast_English + 2.7% Kalash @ 2.07
19 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.08
20 96.7% Southeast_English + 3.3% Tadjik @ 2.1

Random British Gedmatch admixture: This guy says he's got ancestry from Kent/Essex:
North_Sea 40.95
Atlantic 27.24
Baltic 11.95
Eastern_Euro 5.64
West_Med 6.91
West_Asian 2.96
East_Med 1.83
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.38
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.34
Oceanian 0.75
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

[thracian_bro]

I plotted him on 3d k15 pca in rstudio > https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?177271-Tutorial-for-autosomal-calculators&p=6169153&viewfull=1#post6169153
He plots close to Southeast_English
https://i.imgur.com/3SgtFAF.png

Wow, it actually shows the Celtic/Germanic shift in the oracle, maybe its a bias in the K15 pca's algorithm.

[vbnetkhio]

Honestly, that K15 map is a crappy inaccurate way of plotting people, and I'm surprised it's still so popular here.

is there another free online pca except this one? and i don't agree it's innacurate.
this is a plot i made, members of the same ethnicity cluster nicely together
https://i.imgur.com/VUBEKDb.png

[vbnetkhio]

OP kit oracle:
1 97.6% Southeast_English + 2.4% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 1.67
2 97.6% Southeast_English + 2.4% Somali @ 1.67
3 97.5% Southeast_English + 2.5% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 1.68
4 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 1.69
5 97.3% Southeast_English + 2.7% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 1.7
6 98% Southeast_English + 2% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 1.74
7 98.2% Southeast_English + 1.8% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 1.92
8 98% Southeast_English + 2% Maasai @ 1.94
9 98.1% Southeast_English + 1.9% Hadza @ 1.95
10 97.2% Southeast_English + 2.8% Makrani @ 2.01
11 98.1% Southeast_English + 1.9% Sandawe @ 2.01
12 97.2% Southeast_English + 2.8% Brahui @ 2.02
13 97.2% Southeast_English + 2.8% Balochi @ 2.03
14 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Sindhi @ 2.03
15 97.3% Southeast_English + 2.7% Pathan @ 2.06
16 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Burusho @ 2.07
17 97% Southeast_English + 3% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.07
18 97.3% Southeast_English + 2.7% Kalash @ 2.07
19 97.4% Southeast_English + 2.6% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.08
20 96.7% Southeast_English + 3.3% Tadjik @ 2.1


this pca is very sensitive to exotic admixtures. this kit has some South Asian in it. also increased Northeast African. most Germanic people get like 0,5 Northeast African in k15 (i gues it's something proto-Germanic but wrongly assigned), but this one gets 1,5 which is too much.

[thracian_bro]

this pca is very sensitive to exotic admixtures. this kit has some South Asian in it. also increased Northeast African. most Germanic people get like 0,5 Northeast African in k15 (i gues it's something proto-Germanic but wrongly assigned), but this one gets 1,5 which is too much.

I think its safe to assume this kit is 100% Nordic and Celtic and its just some oddities in the algorithm adding a foreign shift.

[vbnetkhio]

I think its safe to assume this kit is 100% Nordic and Celtic and its just some oddities in the algorithm adding a foreign shift.

it's possible. but if he also gets those admixtures in other calcualtors than it's probably real.
how many used SNPs does he get in k15?

[thracian_bro]

it's possible. but if he also gets those admixtures in other calcualtors than it's probably real.
how many used SNPs does he get in k15?

Hold on, gedmatch webpage isn't loading at the moment

[thracian_bro]

it's possible. but if he also gets those admixtures in other calcualtors than it's probably real.
how many used SNPs does he get in k15?

173806 SNPs used in this evaluation

[vbnetkhio]

173806 SNPs used in this evaluation

that's very good quality. so it's not caused by low quality. does he get South Asian and any kind of African in other calcualtors?

[thracian_bro]

that's very good quality. so it's not caused by low quality. does he get South Asian and any kind of African in other calcualtors?

For admixture? To give you an idea for admixture:

MDLP World 22 - Pygmy 0.14, Indian 0.08, South-African 0.89

Dodecade K7b - South_Asian 1.65, African 0.85

MDLP World 22 - Pygmy 0.14, Indian 0.08, South African 0.89

puntDNAL K15 - S_Indian 1.45, Omo_River 0.46, W_African 0.08, Horn_of_Africa 1.23, SW_Asian 2.09

Harappaworld - S-Indian 0.57, Baloch 10.23, SW-Asian 1.57, San 0.54

[Gründig]

Plotting by Belgium is not southern france.....

Also, that maps layout isn't the best.

[vbnetkhio]

For admixture? To give you an idea for admixture:

MDLP World 22 - Pygmy 0.14, Indian 0.08, South-African 0.89

Dodecade K7b - South_Asian 1.65, African 0.85

MDLP World 22 - Pygmy 0.14, Indian 0.08, South African 0.89

puntDNAL K15 - S_Indian 1.45, Omo_River 0.46, W_African 0.08, Horn_of_Africa 1.23, SW_Asian 2.09

Harappaworld - S-Indian 0.57, Baloch 10.23, SW-Asian 1.57, San 0.54

seems consistent
Gedrosia K12?

[thracian_bro]

Plotting by Belgium is not southern france.....

Also, that maps layout isn't the best.

I said closer to, not within. I highlighted where SW Europeans normally plot.

[thracian_bro]

seems consistent
Gedrosia K12?
Sub-Saharan 0.44, SW_Asian 7.20, Balochi 6.49

[vbnetkhio]

Sub-Saharan 0.44, SW_Asian 7.20, Balochi 6.49

he gets no South Indian?

[thracian_bro]

he gets no South Indian?

No south indian.

[Chryssie Khanate]

lmao k15 always fucks up...

I'm 50% modern British/Irish, and basically 35% Northwest European 15% Eastern European...

This is what it says..

West_Norwegian 70.8%
West_German 28.6%
Norwegian 0.4%
Moroccan 0.2%

like...what is going on here?

[thracian_bro]

lmao k15 always fucks up...

I'm 50% modern British/Irish, and basically 35% Northwest European 15% Eastern European...

This is what it says..

West_Norwegian 70.8%
West_German 28.6%
Norwegian 0.4%
Moroccan 0.2%

like...what is going on here?

Yeah the eastern shift should make you closer to east Germany. I guess I could understand west norwegian, they have a similar Celtic + Germanic admix that Scottish lowlands people have.