Balkans, Central Europe, Ukraine academic samples on gedmatch

[pelikarski]

Russian imperial politici in 19th century in the Balkan was creatiaon of Great Bulgaria from Dobruja to Shkoder and from Thessaly to Morava. Russian imperialictic wiev is no relavant. You still dream Russian imperialictic project of San Stefano Big Bulgaria, is not it?

You got earlier your independence so that gave you the opportunity to Serbify the regions I mentioned.
In the middle ages all foreigner observers noted these regions have predominantly Bulgarian character, I haven't seen them labeling parts of Western Bulgaria as Serbia, only Serbian ethnographs.

And no I don't, Russians are your biggest friends after all

[Pribislav]

You got earlier your independence so that gave you the opportunity to Serbify the regions I mentioned.
In the middle ages all foreigner observers noted these regions have predominantly Bulgarian character, I haven't seen them labeling parts of Western Bulgaria as Serbia, only Serbian ethnographs.

And no I don't, Russians are your biggest friends after all

Russian are our friends yes, but in 19th century Bulgarians were Russian favorites on the Balkan, because of Russian ambcion to took Constantinople.

Southern Serbian speeches are genetically closer to SW Slavic than to SE Slavic speeches, regardless of some Bulgarian influence.

[Pribislav]

double

[pelikarski]

Russian are our friends yes, but in 19th century Bulgarians were Russian favorite on the Balkan, because of Russian ambcion to took Constantinople.

Southern Serbian speeches are genetically closer to SW Slavic than to SE Slavic speeches, regardless of some Bulgarian influence.

Many things happened since then, yes these regions are now core Serbian, not long ago they used to be Bulgarian.

[vbnetkhio]

He said most people (not just his family) from his region use the word Shop instead of Torlak
ofc, becuase they are Shopi down there


Anyways, the word Torlak is of Turkish etymology. Do Torlaks have a native Slavic name for themselves that they would have used before the adopted a Turkish word for themselves after the Ottomans' expansion to the Balkans?
The Serbs/Bulgarians which live further north than Torlaks are still called Timočani and Braničevci, which were mentioned as Slavic tribes back in the 7th century, which is pretty interesting. Torlaks probably also originate from those 2 tribes, and maybe some others whcih weren't written down.


Also, since the maps of Shopluk and the Torlakian-speaking area overlap, is it possible to be simultaneously both Shop and Torlak (in the region they overlap)? They're distinct terms according to what you said so it shouldn't be possible, so I'm wondering if you can clarify this part.

it was fluid, when they asked the locals, each had a different definitons of borders. some said Torlak spreads down to Niš. so they can overlap
also from what i understand the Morava-Vardar people lived in valleys and towns, while Shops and Torlaks were "Vlachs"(transhumant shepherds), living in hills and mountains around those valleys and towns
Morava-Vardar people used Shop and Torlak as insult, and considered it as an insult when somebody else called them that.

[Zmey Gorynych]

maybe so many Moldavians have those admixtures that it's typical?
anyways one Moldavian cluster stretches from Gagauz/east Bulgarian to Ukraine, and there's the other cluster pulled towards the Weirdlookingfellow. i think the Moldavian mystery is solved.

https://i.imgur.com/2s9TOq9.png
Is it two cocks colliding? :) We can't draw any conclusions from such a small sample. We do not know what the real Moldovan average is until more people get tested. Seems like everyone is towing his line without bringing any proof or argument to the table. Moldova despite being very small has quite a few ethnicities. If one wants to find what ethnic modovans score one has to select results of people from rural central Moldova. If we are interested in the average of citizens of Moldova then every single result counts.


Ukrainians and Russians made up 25% of the Moldovan SSR's population in 1959 and 27% in 1989. Given the small size of the country and the lack of religious segregation (as it's the case with Muslims and religious Jews for example) a certain degree of mixing is no surprise. See Moldovan Apricity members (not giving any names), they are even Russian speakers (despite them being Russophobic to some extent).
It is a typical Soviet-made republic (Soviet nation building).
Is this about me? I'm the only republic moldovan on this board that has tested. I can assure you that I have no east-slavic, gagauz, bulgarian, gypsy or jewish ancestry at least in the last 150 years. If I had any Russian/Ukrainian ancestry I think I'd know. My ancestors are from rural central Moldova - the region with almost no minorities. I don't give names for the same reason many people don't give names on the web. The surnames of my grandparents are all moldovan.

[PAGANE]

Boys and girls, I will give you just a little historical statistics about the huge migrations of the ethnic Bulgarian population over the whole 500 years during which Bulgaria was ruled by the Ottoman Empire. These are data for which we have information and are historically documented. For those who do not know politically, Bulgaria ceased to exist on the European map at the end of the 14th century. I do not know if this is of interest to you, but just add up the numbers and the number that comes out is huge not only for those times, but even nowadays. Here, I do not even mention exile in Asia Minor :


1462 - The Wallachian governor Vlad III Dracula invades Vidin and continues his march to the Black Sea, exposing the entire Mizia to devastation. More than 50,000 Muslim Turks and Bulgarians-Muslim have been slaughtered and many Bulgarians Christians have been resettled in Wallachia.


1521 - 1522 - On August 28 and 29, 1521, the Belgrade Fortress fell, and in September of the same year and in the following 1522, Bulgarians from the medieval Belgrade region were displaced to Constantinople and Eastern Thrace;


1598 The first Turnovo uprising The signal for the beginning of the uprising was the invasion of Mikhail Vityazul south of the Danube at Nikopol on September 10, 1598. Nearly 16,000 Bulgarians were resettled and landed in Wallachia after being abducted from their native places. Following the defeat of the uprising, some 50,000 Bulgarian families sought rescue north of the Danube River, mainly in Wallachia, which in general had a particularly adverse impact on both Bulgarian lands and their farms.

1686 - Second Turnovo Uprising;
1688- The Chiprovtsi Uprising The uprising and its suppression caused a massive wave of displacement from all northwestern Bulgaria, mainly to the west and north, to areas dominated by Christians. Two were the main refugee routes The first, through the Balkan Range west to Slavonia, crossed the 600s of Georgi Pejachevic's company with an even larger number of women and children. It can be assumed that there were a total of about 1200 - 1800 people. The second, north, across the Danube in Wallachia, led by Archbishop Stefan Knezevic and brothers Kopilovci Nikola and Gyur Kachamaga passed on the account of Archbishop Knezevich 3000 people. Today, there is a Bulgarian minority in the Banat district, in addition to the Chiprovtsians, they are the heirs of the Nikopol and Svishtov peacocks who migrated there at the end of the 17th century. Novi Sad, Petrovaradin and Osijek, where representatives of the prominent Pejachevichi, Cherkini and Parchevichi families have lived for a long time. Other Bulgarian units are included in the garrisons in the Caransebes area. After the end of the war in 1699, this city remained in Ottoman territory and the Bulgarians moved beyond Muresh to several villages east of Arad, but returned to Caransebes after conquering it in 1718 by the Habsburgs.Another group of refugees leave the north, accompanied by a wave of Serbs from the Big Serbian Migration, and reach the Buddha area. The remaining refugees in Wallachia settle in different cities of Oltenia, where in the previous decades there were Chiprovski colonies, creating the most sustainable communities in Craiova, Rimnik and Bradiceni. The precarious situation in Vlach, raided by Tatar gangs, prompts some refugees to seek refuge in Transylvania, but there they face the disapproval of local Protestants

1689 - The rebellion or uprising of Karpoš For rebels who survived the battles, there is no escape from Ottoman justice except to leave the Balkans. Many run north beyond the Sava and the Danube. Insurgents who have fallen into Austria are believed to have migrated to the Russian Empire, now Ukraine, where they remain in military service after seventy years. Later, the so-called. Macedonian Hussar Regiment The deserted areas of the Balkans were later settled by Albanians.

Uprising of the Prelates in Sofia, Samokov and Western Bulgaria 1737 The movement of the Bulgarians was suppressed and many families from the Western Bulgarian lands together with Patriarch Arseniy IV fled to Banat.

During the Russo-Turkish War (1806 - 1812), Russian troops conquered Silistra, Nikopol, and Rousse and moved south, reaching the area of the Pre-Balkans. The Bucharest peace treaty (1812) gives nothing to the Bulgarians and tens of thousands of civilians withdraw with the Russian army.

The Russo-Turkish War of 1828 - 1829 was the most successful so far. As in the previous war, Bulgarians from the interior of the country and emigration assisted the Russian troops. After the conquest of Sozopol by the Russian fleet, the uprising in Thrace began after the entry into Edirne of a gen. Dibic Zadbalkan and the regions of Lozengrad and Luleburgaz to Corlu, where Bulgarians raise a mass uprising and reject Turkish rule The Edirne Peace Treaty of 1829, which brings freedom to Greece and gives autonomy to Serbia, Wallachia and Moldova, again mentions nothing about Bulgarians. The withdrawal of Russian troops to the north followed, leaving 150,000 Bulgarians with their homes. Today they are the Bulgarian community in Bessarabia - Ukrainian and Moldovan

Uprising in Northwestern Bulgaria (1850) The eviction affected dozens of settlements and about 11,000 people from northwestern Bulgaria were transported by ship along the Danube. The migrants must be accommodated in Tatar villages in Tavria and Crimea

The Crimean War (October 1853 - February 1856) is a military conflict between Russia and the Union between the Ottoman Empire, France, the British Empire and the Sardinian Kingdom. Bulgarians have been participating in the war since March 1854 - after the passage of the Russian army into Dobrudzha and the siege of Silistra. When Russia raised the siege of Silistra, disbanded Bulgarian volunteer units, and began withdrawing from Wallachia and Moldova, riots against Christians began in Dobrudzha, with separate killings even in large cities, such as Varna. This triggers a refugee wave, with about 7,000 Bulgarians leaving for Bessarabia

[PAGANE]

..

[CommonSense]

That map of Shopluk is wrong. Here is a better one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Torlak_dialects_map_en.png

Which dot is the Shop Serb btw?

It's a gray dot, labeled 'SE Serb/Shop Serb (Jablanica)'

[PAGANE]

Russian imperial politic in 19th century in the Balkan was creatiaon of Great Bulgaria from Dobruja to Shkoder and from Thessaly to Morava. Russian imperialictic view from 19th century is no relevant. You still dream Russian imperialictic project of San Stefano Big Bulgaria, is not it?

You are wrong, the San Stefano Treaty was based solely on the Istanbul Ambassador Conference, held from December 23, 1876 to January 20, 1877. and the ensuing war between Serbia and Montenegro, on the one hand, and the Ottoman Empire, on the other. Russia's preparations for war have prompted British Prime Minister Lord Disraeli to agree to an ambassador's conference in the Ottoman capital. During the preliminary meetings, the ambassadors of the great powers came up with a common plan for solving the problems in the Western Balkans and establishing peace between Serbia and Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire. The plan envisages the creation of an autonomous region of Bosnia and Herzegovina, with one governor-general. Serbia receives minor border repairs, and Montenegro is expanding territorially in southern Herzegovina and northern Albania. Regarding the Bulgarian lands, the conference participants offer different solutions.
The final plan of the conference calls for the British proposal to divide Bulgaria vertically into two autonomous regions - East, with the center of Turnovo, and West, with the center of Sofia. At the meeting of January 8, 1877, the Marquis of Salisbury stated that "within the boundaries of these two provinces forming Bulgaria, there are no areas in which the Bulgarian population is predominant, nor areas which were not exposed to the bad administration which enabled to commit the atrocities of last summer. "
The Eastern Bulgarian Autonomous Region includes the Sanjats of Tarnovski, Ruse, Tulchan, Varna, Sliven, Plovdiv (without the Sultaneri and Achachelebi in the Rhodope Mountains) and the Karklisiyska (Lozengrad), Mustafapashovska (Svilengrad) and Kazhalagachka.
In the West region there are the Sanjitsi Sofiiski, Vidin, Nishki, Skopski, Bitolski, part of Serski and Kazah Strumishka, Veleška, Tikveshka and Kosturska. 91529
But before this conference, there was a secret agreement from June 1876 between the Russian Emperor Alexander II and the Foreign Minister Prince Alexander Gorchakov to meet with the Austro-Hungarian Emperor Franz Joseph and the Foreign Minister Earl Dul Andrasi at the Reichstadt Castle in Bohemia (today the city) hence the name of the agreement reached between them - the Reichstadt Agreement. The subject of discussion is the probable outbreak of the Russo-Turkish war due to the acute situation in the Balkans, the possible results and the different scenarios for each result. There are two versions of the text - Russian and Austrian. Under the terms of this agreement, Austria-Hungary and Russia agree that "if territorial changes or the collapse of the Ottoman Empire occur, the creation of a large compact Slavic or other state is excluded." The Parties also agree that Montenegro and Serbia will they will be able to annex: the first - Herzegovina and the Adriatic Sea, and the second - some parts of old Serbia and Bosnia. In this case, however, "Austria will have the right to annex the Turkish part of Croatia, as well as some border areas of Bosnia." For its part, Russia will receive the right to regain Bessarabia, ceded to the Principality of Moldova in 1856. In the event of a "complete defeat of Turkey in Europe", the text provides for the possibility for Bulgaria and Rumelia to form independent principalities. The agreement proves that as early as 1876 it was clear that the countries on the Balkans did not agree to create either a compact Slavic or a large state. It is precisely this agreement between the two countries that makes the establishment of Sanstephana Bulgaria impossible and the preliminary peace treaty signed in 1878 impossible. In the Austrian version of the text the name "Bulgaria" is not found at all. It says that if Turkey is defeated, Austria-Hungary will receive Bosnia and Herzegovina, with the exception of some territories that will join Serbia and Montenegro. Bosnia, Rumelia and Albania can become autonomous states and the islands of Crete and Thessaly will join Greece. Constantinople is expected to be declared a free city.
Regarding Northern Dobrudja, which is today in the territory of Romania. Until 1877, the area was within the Ottoman Empire, with a significant portion of the Bulgarian population, part of the Bulgarian land outlined by the Sultan's Ferman, which defined the boundaries of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870. Through the San Stefano Peace Treaty of February 19 / March 3, 1878, to secure access to the Danube River, the Russian Empire seized Bessarabia from Romania, designating North Dobrudja as compensation. In the March 3, 1878 Treaty of San Francisco, the border between Bulgaria and Romania was defined as follows: "It will leave the coast of Mangalia and, following the southern borders of the Tulcean Sandak, reach the Danube above Rasovo." The Romanian public rejects the Russian proposal. On November 14th, Romanian King Carol I sent the following message in Bulgarian to the Dobrudzha population: “With the Treaty of Berlin, the European great powers have annexed your country to Romania. We will not enter as conquerors within your borders as defined by Europe ... ". However, the situation was legalized by the Berlin Congress and the Dobrudzha issue became a major problem in Balkan relations. From 1878 to 1912 the Dobrudzha issue did not cause any serious complications in the relations between Bulgaria and Romania, but after the Balkan War, most of all during the Inter-Allied War, Romania invaded Bulgaria along unprotected borders and unprotected Northern Bulgaria, with southern Dobrudzha. which marks the beginning of conflicts between the two countries
The San Stefano Treaty outlined Bulgaria's ethnic borders, but it could not be fulfilled because the great powers did not want it, our neighbors did not want it either

[Mingle]

ofc, becuase they are Shopi down there

If that region is Shop, then doesn't that mean Cvijic's map is wrong? :confused:

Which parts of Serbia do you consider part of Shopluk?


The Serbs/Bulgarians which live further north than Torlaks are still called Timočani and Braničevci, which were mentioned as Slavic tribes back in the 7th century, which is pretty interesting. Torlaks probably also originate from those 2 tribes, and maybe some others whcih weren't written down.

Did they actually call themselves Timočani and Braničevci? I thought that the Slavic tribes of Timok and Braničevo were unknown and they were simply named Timočani and Braničevci by historians because they were from Timok and Braničevo. The -ani and -i suffixes sound like those groups were named after their region rather than the other way around. If the terms Timočani and Braničevci are still used today, then my guess is that they're used as purely geographic terms rather than having anything to do with the ancient Slavic tribes. This is just my impression though based purely on the names, I could be wrong.

Also, I heard that their distinctive Torlak/Shop identity has to do with them assimilating a large number of Vlachs in that region. What do you think of that?

[Mingle]

Boys and girls, I will give you just a little historical statistics about the huge migrations of the ethnic Bulgarian population over the whole 500 years during which Bulgaria was ruled by the Ottoman Empire. These are data for which we have information and are historically documented. For those who do not know politically, Bulgaria ceased to exist on the European map at the end of the 14th century. I do not know if this is of interest to you, but just add up the numbers and the number that comes out is huge not only for those times, but even nowadays. Here, I do not even mention exile in Asia Minor :


1462 - The Wallachian governor Vlad III Dracula invades Vidin and continues his march to the Black Sea, exposing the entire Mizia to devastation. More than 50,000 Muslim Turks and Bulgarians-Muslim have been slaughtered and many Bulgarians Christians have been resettled in Wallachia.


1521 - 1522 - On August 28 and 29, 1521, the Belgrade Fortress fell, and in September of the same year and in the following 1522, Bulgarians from the medieval Belgrade region were displaced to Constantinople and Eastern Thrace;


1598 The first Turnovo uprising The signal for the beginning of the uprising was the invasion of Mikhail Vityazul south of the Danube at Nikopol on September 10, 1598. Nearly 16,000 Bulgarians were resettled and landed in Wallachia after being abducted from their native places. Following the defeat of the uprising, some 50,000 Bulgarian families sought rescue north of the Danube River, mainly in Wallachia, which in general had a particularly adverse impact on both Bulgarian lands and their farms.

1686 - Second Turnovo Uprising;
1688- The Chiprovtsi Uprising The uprising and its suppression caused a massive wave of displacement from all northwestern Bulgaria, mainly to the west and north, to areas dominated by Christians. Two were the main refugee routes The first, through the Balkan Range west to Slavonia, crossed the 600s of Georgi Pejachevic's company with an even larger number of women and children. It can be assumed that there were a total of about 1200 - 1800 people. The second, north, across the Danube in Wallachia, led by Archbishop Stefan Knezevic and brothers Kopilovci Nikola and Gyur Kachamaga passed on the account of Archbishop Knezevich 3000 people. Today, there is a Bulgarian minority in the Banat district, in addition to the Chiprovtsians, they are the heirs of the Nikopol and Svishtov peacocks who migrated there at the end of the 17th century. Novi Sad, Petrovaradin and Osijek, where representatives of the prominent Pejachevichi, Cherkini and Parchevichi families have lived for a long time. Other Bulgarian units are included in the garrisons in the Caransebes area. After the end of the war in 1699, this city remained in Ottoman territory and the Bulgarians moved beyond Muresh to several villages east of Arad, but returned to Caransebes after conquering it in 1718 by the Habsburgs.Another group of refugees leave the north, accompanied by a wave of Serbs from the Big Serbian Migration, and reach the Buddha area. The remaining refugees in Wallachia settle in different cities of Oltenia, where in the previous decades there were Chiprovski colonies, creating the most sustainable communities in Craiova, Rimnik and Bradiceni. The precarious situation in Vlach, raided by Tatar gangs, prompts some refugees to seek refuge in Transylvania, but there they face the disapproval of local Protestants

1689 - The rebellion or uprising of Karpoš For rebels who survived the battles, there is no escape from Ottoman justice except to leave the Balkans. Many run north beyond the Sava and the Danube. Insurgents who have fallen into Austria are believed to have migrated to the Russian Empire, now Ukraine, where they remain in military service after seventy years. Later, the so-called. Macedonian Hussar Regiment The deserted areas of the Balkans were later settled by Albanians.

Uprising of the Prelates in Sofia, Samokov and Western Bulgaria 1737 The movement of the Bulgarians was suppressed and many families from the Western Bulgarian lands together with Patriarch Arseniy IV fled to Banat.

During the Russo-Turkish War (1806 - 1812), Russian troops conquered Silistra, Nikopol, and Rousse and moved south, reaching the area of the Pre-Balkans. The Bucharest peace treaty (1812) gives nothing to the Bulgarians and tens of thousands of civilians withdraw with the Russian army.

The Russo-Turkish War of 1828 - 1829 was the most successful so far. As in the previous war, Bulgarians from the interior of the country and emigration assisted the Russian troops. After the conquest of Sozopol by the Russian fleet, the uprising in Thrace began after the entry into Edirne of a gen. Dibic Zadbalkan and the regions of Lozengrad and Luleburgaz to Corlu, where Bulgarians raise a mass uprising and reject Turkish rule The Edirne Peace Treaty of 1829, which brings freedom to Greece and gives autonomy to Serbia, Wallachia and Moldova, again mentions nothing about Bulgarians. The withdrawal of Russian troops to the north followed, leaving 150,000 Bulgarians with their homes. Today they are the Bulgarian community in Bessarabia - Ukrainian and Moldovan

Uprising in Northwestern Bulgaria (1850) The eviction affected dozens of settlements and about 11,000 people from northwestern Bulgaria were transported by ship along the Danube. The migrants must be accommodated in Tatar villages in Tavria and Crimea

The Crimean War (October 1853 - February 1856) is a military conflict between Russia and the Union between the Ottoman Empire, France, the British Empire and the Sardinian Kingdom. Bulgarians have been participating in the war since March 1854 - after the passage of the Russian army into Dobrudzha and the siege of Silistra. When Russia raised the siege of Silistra, disbanded Bulgarian volunteer units, and began withdrawing from Wallachia and Moldova, riots against Christians began in Dobrudzha, with separate killings even in large cities, such as Varna. This triggers a refugee wave, with about 7,000 Bulgarians leaving for Bessarabia

Excellent post. Where did you find this info btw? Is there a link that has all the Bulgarian migrations compiled?

Also, there was a migration of Bulgarians (cloth merchants & agricultural workers) to Romania during the 18th century. There was a protocol in 1834 by the Wallachian government that made Bulgarians exempt from taxation for 3 years and then they were taxed at half the rate of local Romanians for the following 7 years. This encourage them to migrate to Wallachia. And there was also a migration of Bulgarian intelligentsia (around 400 members) to Romania in the 19th century and they played an important role during the Vurazhdane, though this was a relatively minor migration compared to the other ones.

By the way, I heard before that the Byzantine imported some Anatolian Greeks into the territory of modern day Bulgaria. This was before the Ottoman expansion IIRC. Is that true?

And were there ever any Bulgarian migrations to Serbia and Greece?

[Coastal Elite]

One thing to note is that the initial Romanian samples are from 2 villages in the mountains. These are very specific populations, unlikely to be representative for urban Romanians.

Properly sample Bucharest, Iasi and Cluj and watch the Romanian cluster explode.

Where do you believe Cluj would cluster? I got Cluj County as my strongest match on 23andme for whatever reason (family is from Brasov County, which was #2 for me).

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Where do you believe Cluj would cluster? I got Cluj County as my strongest match on 23andme for whatever reason (family is from Brasov County, which was #2 for me).

Cluj is a historical county wherr Romanians were not allowed to live within the cities. Turda and Cluj-Napoca had barely any Romanians until Transylvania got annexed in 1918.

I would not trust looking for s genetic average for Transylvanian cities, as these were more or less recently occupied by Romanians in late 19th, early-mid 20th century from all over the place.

[Coastal Elite]

Cluj is a historical county wherr Romanians were not allowed to live within the cities. Turda and Cluj-Napoca jad barrly any Romanians until Transylvania got anmexed in 1918.

I would not trust looking for s genetic average for Transylvanian cities, as these were more or less recently occupied by Romanians in late 19th, early-mid 20th century from all over the place.

Well, for the most part the results seemed accurate given my family was from Transylvania. Cluj was the only real surprise since my surname is more common is Brasov and Sibiu counties based on my ancestry research. That is the area my family was from there and had lived well before the 19th century.

These were my counties starting with the closest:
1. Cluj County
2. Brașov County
3 Mureș County
4 Vaslui County
5 Maramureș County
6 Prahova
7 Argeș County
8 Buzău County
9 Alba County
10 Bacău County

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Well, for the most part the results seemed accurate given my family was from Transylvania. Cluj was the only real surprise since my surname is more common is Brasov and Sibiu counties based on my ancestry research. That is the area my family was from there and had lived well before the 19th century.

These were my counties starting with the closest:
1. Cluj County
2. Brașov County
3 Mureș County
4 Vaslui County
5 Maramureș County
6 Prahova
7 Argeș County
8 Buzău County
9 Alba County
10 Bacău County

They probably have more samples from Cluj. You get Cluj, then Brașov,then a county with lots of* Szekelys, then a county in Moldova, then Maramureș, then a county in Wallachia.These don't tell me anything and I couldn't confirm nor deny them unless I knew exactly where I'm from.

[Dick]

What is that? Some kind of celebration?

Celo SRBSTVO slavi slavu
Svoga oca svetog Savu.
Pojte mu SRBI,
Pesmu i utrojte!




https://youtu.be/3y2oa8zWxNA

[PAGANE]

Excellent post. Where did you find this info btw? Is there a link that has all the Bulgarian migrations compiled?

Also, there was a migration of Bulgarians (cloth merchants & agricultural workers) to Romania during the 18th century. There was a protocol in 1834 by the Wallachian government that made Bulgarians exempt from taxation for 3 years and then they were taxed at half the rate of local Romanians for the following 7 years. This encourage them to migrate to Wallachia. And there was also a migration of Bulgarian intelligentsia (around 400 members) to Romania in the 19th century and they played an important role during the Vurazhdane, though this was a relatively minor migration compared to the other ones.

By the way, I heard before that the Byzantine imported some Anatolian Greeks into the territory of modern day Bulgaria. This was before the Ottoman expansion IIRC. Is that true?

And were there ever any Bulgarian migrations to Serbia and Greece?

I am an education historian, so I orient myself to where to look for information. No, there is no common link, and these are just part of the migrations - big and famous. There are many other small uprisings after the suppression of which killings and robberies over civilians begin, and as a rule this is followed by migrations. They may be closer distances, but most followed the lines to places outside the Ottomans - Wallachia, Moldova, Austria-Hungary, the Western Balkans, where Ottoman rule was weaker because they were under the protection of Venice. , Genoa, and later of Austro-Hungary and also in the Russian Empire especially in the 17th-18th century Yes, it can be said that there are many people in Romania today who are of Bulgarian origin, even if they do not know about it. Because for the ancestral ethnicity of the 15th-17th centuries, we unfortunately have no information, and for the most part are assimilated among the Wallachian population. About the introduction of the Anatolian Greeks during Byzantium, I personally do not know, but it is quite possible. There was a great movement of people in the Middle Ages. There were also migrations to Greece in the southern and southern parts while they were relatively free. Greece was more under the protection of European countries in the face of the Vatican. For example, in the 18th century, when the feudal unrest in the Ottoman Empire began to be known as the Kardzhali period, the period was called the "Kurdzhali period" During this period, there were migrations in the direction of Asia Minor, closer to the central government, where it was relatively quiet n addition to migrations outside the territories of the Ottoman Empire, there were many internal migrations within the empire. From the western parts of the Balkans to the east and back. From south to north and back.

[Lucas]

Celo SRBSTVO slavi slavu
Svoga oca svetog Savu.
Pojte mu SRBI,
Pesmu i utrojte!




https://youtu.be/3y2oa8zWxNA

SLAVA

[vbnetkhio]

If that region is Shop, then doesn't that mean Cvijic's map is wrong? :confused:

Which parts of Serbia do you consider part of Shopluk?
nobody says Shopluk anymore in Serbia, it's more of a Bulgarian thing. as i said in Jablanica Shops are the oldest population that survived in the more isolated mountain areas, while the rest was emptied by wars many times and resettled by Montenegrins, Macedonians and Kosovars. all those groups except some Montenegrins don't use 7 grammatical cases so they all get grouped together as "Torlaks" by some. i see Croatian and Russian wikipedia mention "Torlakian dialects" and Serbian doesn't.

so now there's no more real "Shopluk" in Serbia, it's Southeast Serbia or South Morava area.it corresponds to that "Torlak" map which you posted, pretty much.
edit: you can see some dark red spots in Jablanica, but also in other parts of Serbia, on that Cvijić's map, those are clusters of villages with Shop or Torlak majority origins. somewhere they are original population, somewhere they came and resettled emtpy areas.


Did they actually call themselves Timočani and Braničevci? I thought that the Slavic tribes of Timok and Braničevo were unknown and they were simply named Timočani and Braničevci by historians because they were from Timok and Braničevo. The -ani and -i suffixes sound like those groups were named after their region rather than the other way around.

Arabic traveller Al Masudi mentions a tribe called "Branicabin", and Timochans are mentioned by Einhard as "Timocianorum". read their wikipedia pages, there is some more historical info about them.


If the terms Timočani and Braničevci are still used today, then my guess is that they're used as purely geographic terms rather than having anything to do with the ancient Slavic tribes. This is just my impression though based purely on the names, I could be wrong.

this is true, but the names of the regions survived, and the specific local dialects and other specifities, so there probably is some continuity.


Also, I heard that their distinctive Torlak/Shop identity has to do with them assimilating a large number of Vlachs in that region. What do you think of that?
the identity was probably originally regional, somebody living in Torlak or Shopluk. and than later it meant "hillybilly" but also the original population, opposed to the newcomers.
i read they have some romance words in their dialects. that makes sense, mostly the mountain dwelling Shops and Torlaks survived, and mountain areas were less Slavicized. but still pretty Slavic.

[vbnetkhio]

Excellent post. Where did you find this info btw? Is there a link that has all the Bulgarian migrations compiled?

Also, there was a migration of Bulgarians (cloth merchants & agricultural workers) to Romania during the 18th century. There was a protocol in 1834 by the Wallachian government that made Bulgarians exempt from taxation for 3 years and then they were taxed at half the rate of local Romanians for the following 7 years. This encourage them to migrate to Wallachia. And there was also a migration of Bulgarian intelligentsia (around 400 members) to Romania in the 19th century and they played an important role during the Vurazhdane, though this was a relatively minor migration compared to the other ones.

By the way, I heard before that the Byzantine imported some Anatolian Greeks into the territory of modern day Bulgaria. This was before the Ottoman expansion IIRC. Is that true?

And were there ever any Bulgarian migrations to Serbia and Greece?

There are two villages in Serbia in which they speak some Central or East Bulgarian dialect, Dublje and Veliki Izvor. there are also catholic Bulgarians in Banat, Vojvodina, but it was Austro-Hungary when they settled there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VyI2LmEN2s

[pelikarski]

There are two villages in Serbia in which they speak some Central or East Bulgarian dialect, Dublje and Veliki Izvor. there are also catholic Bulgarians in Banat, Vojvodina, but it was Austro-Hungary when they settled there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VyI2LmEN2s

This is pure Bulgarian language, a bit Serbified, I understood everything.
Moravian Bulgarians have been almost fully Serbified, very few have Bulgarian national consciousness

[vbnetkhio]

This is pure Bulgarian language, a bit Serbified, I understood everything.
Moravian Bulgarians have been almost fully Serbified, very few have Bulgarian national consciousness

they migrated to Serbia from somewhere deep in Bulgaria, so they don't speak Shop or Torlak but something closer to standard Bulgarian so you undertsand them better. but it's just these 2 villages.
who do you consider Morava Bulgarians, all Shops and Torlaks?

[PAGANE]

Turlaci Ethnographic Group
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NMio8Zho0A&list=PLPqqAnVmxOhOm-w-bwIiw130EA-LzZ_qz&index=8

[PAGANE]

Gagauz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVSKBtsd_cw&list=PLPqqAnVmxOhOm-w-bwIiw130EA-LzZ_qz&index=4

[vbnetkhio]

https://i.imgur.com/QCeLBja.png

light Red - Slovaks, Czechs, Ukrainians
purple - Austrians, Slovenians, Hungarians
light green - Serbs, Croats Bosniaks Montenegrins
orange - Macedonian, Bulgarian/Gagauz, Romanian/Moldavian
dark green - Albanians
light blue - Greeks
dark red - Istanbul turks

[ixulescu]

https://i.imgur.com/QCeLBja.png

light Red - Slovaks, Czechs, Ukrainians
purple - Austrians, Slovenians, Hungarians
light green - Serbs, Croats Bosniaks Montenegrins
orange - Macedonian, Bulgarian/Gagauz, Romanian/Moldavian
dark green - Albanians
light blue - Greeks
dark red - Istanbul turks

who are dark blue, Italians?

[vbnetkhio]

who are dark blue, Italians?

those are some of the averages from this pca
https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

[vbnetkhio]

who are dark blue, Italians?

https://i.imgur.com/75Xi5tx.png

[ixulescu]

https://i.imgur.com/75Xi5tx.png

Thanks, I was wondering why they were so spread out :D

[vbnetkhio]

just Macedonians in red. i have a very big sample thanks to ***** and Ajeje Brazorf

https://i.imgur.com/1KC9Brs.png

[vbnetkhio]

Purple ones are I am guessing Austrians. Can you plot Hungarians and Slovenians? I know I am asking too much.

Slovenians
https://i.imgur.com/h3HeDpj.png

Hungarians
https://i.imgur.com/NAF4Fk9.png

[vbnetkhio]

As you can see the Serb from the shopluk zone (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Shopluk_region_map.png/220px-Shopluk_region_map.png) (Serbo-Bulgarian intermediate) plots more to the north than 3 out 5 of these G25 samples.

https://i.imgur.com/5psTtIf.png


So either all of these people are from that fringe and poorly-tested region, which is highly unlikely, or they're ancestrally from Eastern Montenegro. Not counting the one outlier sample out of the Montenegrins on this PCA, all of the other ones do strongly overlap with the Serbians so my guess should be correct.
All in all, Davidski really did a sloppy job on this one. I don't see why any Serb should pay him money to get (incorrectly) told they're Bosnian :picard1:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone-0105090-g001
Serbian academic samples are from Belgrade, Montenegrin from Podgorica. that explains the north plotting Montenegrin and south plotting Serbs.

[smd555]

Can anyone tell me (i am noob) where can i get these samples and their admix results?:


UR3255634 Ukrainian_Rivnenska_R1b8

BN5524070 Ukrainian_Zhytomir_R1a1a

[Jana]

Can anyone tell me (i am noob) where can i get these samples and their admix results?:

1. Rivnenska

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 43.12
2 North_Atlantic 28.91
3 West_Med 11.02
4 East_Med 7.35
5 West_Asian 4.5
6 Amerindian 1.73
7 Red_Sea 1.7
8 Siberian 0.86
9 South_Asian 0.72
10 Oceanian 0.08
11 Sub-Saharan 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

1 Ukrainian 3.25
2 South_Polish 3.6
3 Ukrainian_Lviv 3.79
4 Polish 4.32
5 Southwest_Russian 5.95
6 Russian_Smolensk 6.35
7 Estonian_Polish 6.45
8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 6.99
9 Belorussian 6.99
10 Croatian 8.05
11 Kargopol_Russian 10.5
12 Estonian 10.85
13 Hungarian 11.28
14 Moldavian 11.39
15 Lithuanian 11.46
16 Southwest_Finnish 11.56
17 Finnish 12.13
18 East_German 12.8
19 Erzya 13.2
20 East_Finnish 13.4

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 75.6% Lithuanian + 24.4% Tuscan @ 1.64
2 83.9% Estonian_Polish + 16.1% North_Italian @ 1.67
3 85% Estonian_Polish + 15% Tuscan @ 1.8
4 64.3% Estonian_Polish + 35.7% Hungarian @ 1.88
5 53.8% Belorussian + 46.2% Croatian @ 2.01
6 73.4% Estonian_Polish + 26.6% Serbian @ 2.05
7 83% Belorussian + 17% North_Italian @ 2.06
8 91.4% Polish + 8.6% Ashkenazi @ 2.1
9 74.3% Lithuanian + 25.7% North_Italian @ 2.11
10 56% Estonian_Polish + 44% Croatian @ 2.16
11 85% Estonian_Polish + 15% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.17
12 84.1% Belorussian + 15.9% Tuscan @ 2.18
13 92.8% Polish + 7.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.21
14 84.3% Estonian_Polish + 15.7% Portuguese @ 2.21
15 85.2% Estonian_Polish + 14.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.22
16 60% Lithuanian + 40% Serbian @ 2.23
17 92.8% Polish + 7.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.25
18 93.2% Polish + 6.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.28
19 85.2% Estonian_Polish + 14.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.3
20 85.8% Estonian_Polish + 14.2% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.3

2. Zhytomir

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 46.03
2 North_Atlantic 25.33
3 West_Med 11.53
4 East_Med 8.62
5 West_Asian 6.25
6 Oceanian 0.92
7 Siberian 0.73
8 Sub-Saharan 0.38
9 Northeast_African 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

1 Southwest_Russian 4.36
2 Ukrainian 4.44
3 Ukrainian_Belgorod 5.22
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 5.59
5 Russian_Smolensk 6.25
6 Estonian_Polish 6.35
7 South_Polish 6.35
8 Polish 6.54
9 Belorussian 7.16
10 Croatian 9.7
11 Kargopol_Russian 10.1
12 Lithuanian 10.86
13 Erzya 11.35
14 Estonian 12.16
15 Moldavian 12.18
16 Finnish 14.07
17 Hungarian 14.37
18 East_Finnish 14.42
19 Southwest_Finnish 15.07
20 East_German 16.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 94.3% Southwest_Russian + 5.7% Sardinian @ 2.82
2 68.9% Lithuanian + 31.1% Bulgarian @ 2.85
3 78.9% Lithuanian + 21.1% Central_Greek @ 3.05
4 75.4% Lithuanian + 24.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.06
5 80.7% Lithuanian + 19.3% South_Italian @ 3.16
6 83.6% Lithuanian + 16.4% Cyprian @ 3.23
7 80.9% Estonian_Polish + 19.1% Bulgarian @ 3.25
8 79.5% Lithuanian + 20.5% East_Sicilian @ 3.26
9 82.2% Lithuanian + 17.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.27
10 90.7% Estonian_Polish + 9.3% Cyprian @ 3.3
11 89.1% Southwest_Russian + 10.9% Bulgarian @ 3.31
12 76.3% Southwest_Russian + 23.7% Croatian @ 3.31
13 79.7% Lithuanian + 20.3% Ashkenazi @ 3.35
14 92% Southwest_Russian + 8% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.35
15 93% Southwest_Russian + 7% Tuscan @ 3.37
16 92.6% Southwest_Russian + 7.4% North_Italian @ 3.37
17 82.3% Lithuanian + 17.7% Italian_Jewish @ 3.38
18 93.6% Southwest_Russian + 6.4% West_Sicilian @ 3.4
19 94.6% Southwest_Russian + 5.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.4
20 87.9% Estonian_Polish + 12.1% Central_Greek @ 3.41

[Jana]

Closest population for both samples on updated K13

Distance to: UKR_Rivnenska

3.54577213 Ukrainian
3.83936193 South_Polish
4.22651156 Ukrainian_Lviv
4.89312783 Polish
5.11815396 Sorb_Lusatia
5.83022298 Masurian
6.63444798 Southwest_Russian
6.95982236 Slovak
7.06055239 Cossacks_Kuban
7.12492807 Russian_Smolensk
7.25286840 Estonian_Polish
7.46010724 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
7.76835890 Belorussian
7.88759786 Ukrainian_Belgorod
7.97373187 Czech
8.65599214 Hungarian_Northern
10.16858889 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
10.41844038 Slovenian
10.69611612 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
10.98432975 German_east
11.44513871 Kargopol_Russian
11.47962107 Hungarian_Alfold
11.48258246 Croat_Slavonia
11.81085941 Croat_Croatia
12.04325953 Croat

Distance to: UKR_Zhytomir

4.75577544 Southwest_Russian
4.95624858 Ukrainian
5.84427070 Ukrainian_Belgorod
6.28888702 Ukrainian_Lviv
7.09332785 Russian_Smolensk
7.18673779 Estonian_Polish
7.23726468 South_Polish
7.47840892 Polish
8.11773983 Belorussian
8.65935910 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
9.11641377 Masurian
9.23576202 Cossacks_Kuban
9.71058186 Sorb_Lusatia
10.68866313 Slovak
10.85802468 Kargopol_Russian
11.83787143 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
12.22325243 Hungarian_Northern
12.23428788 Erzya
12.36430750 Czech
12.37752802 Lithuanian
13.32499906 Croat_Slavonia
13.65366251 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
13.69185159 Slovenian
13.82501356 Estonian
13.84449710 Moldova_North

[smd555]

Thanks! How can I place it on the map with other populations?

[dududud]

Interesting, thanks.

[Leto]

Gypsy from Czechia (might be mixed)

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Kit JJ2680405

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 22.64
2 South_Asian 16.83
3 West_Med 15.55
4 West_Asian 14.73
5 Baltic 13.71
6 North_Atlantic 9.16
7 Red_Sea 3.61
8 Oceanian 2.17
9 East_Asian 1.55

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 17.6
2 Central_Greek 18.38
3 East_Sicilian 18.57
4 Ashkenazi 19.37
5 Italian_Abruzzo 20.26
6 South_Italian 20.3
7 West_Sicilian 20.79
8 Bulgarian 21.16
9 Turkish 21.31
10 Romanian 22.61
11 Algerian_Jewish 23.12
12 Azeri 23.44
13 Sephardic_Jewish 23.45
14 Tuscan 23.73
15 Italian_Jewish 24.09
16 Turkmen 24.71
17 Syrian 24.8
18 Lebanese_Muslim 24.99
19 Cyprian 24.99
20 Libyan_Jewish 25.34

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.1% Central_Greek + 23.9% North_Kannadi @ 5.86
2 76.6% Greek_Thessaly + 23.4% Velamas @ 5.99
3 74.8% Central_Greek + 25.2% Kanjar @ 6.02
4 72.3% Central_Greek + 27.7% Bangladeshi @ 6.18
5 77% Greek_Thessaly + 23% Dusadh @ 6.19
6 74.3% Central_Greek + 25.7% Dharkar @ 6.28
7 77% Greek_Thessaly + 23% Kurumba @ 6.28
8 78% Greek_Thessaly + 22% Piramalai @ 6.3
9 75.3% Central_Greek + 24.7% Uttar_Pradesh @ 6.34
10 71.1% Ashkenazi + 28.9% Kshatriya @ 6.37
11 77.2% Greek_Thessaly + 22.8% North_Kannadi @ 6.37
12 69.9% Ashkenazi + 30.1% Brahmin_UP @ 6.38
13 71.2% Ashkenazi + 28.8% Gujarati @ 6.38
14 75.9% Central_Greek + 24.1% Kol @ 6.4
15 73.3% Greek_Thessaly + 26.7% Bangladeshi @ 6.4
16 77.5% Central_Greek + 22.5% Chamar @ 6.4
17 75.3% Greek_Thessaly + 24.7% Dharkar @ 6.43
18 76.2% Central_Greek + 23.8% Dusadh @ 6.43
19 75.8% Greek_Thessaly + 24.2% Kanjar @ 6.43
20 76.1% Central_Greek + 23.9% Chenchu @ 6.44


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 19.17
2 South_Asian 17.79
3 West_Asian 14.08
4 West_Med 12.67
5 Baltic 11.69
6 Atlantic 10.95
7 Eastern_Euro 4.53
8 Red_Sea 4.26
9 Oceanian 1.95
10 North_Sea 1.66
11 Southeast_Asian 1.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 18.41
2 Ashkenazi 18.88
3 Greek_Thessaly 19.21
4 Central_Greek 19.75
5 East_Sicilian 19.84
6 Bulgarian 20.28
7 Italian_Abruzzo 20.63
8 South_Italian 20.92
9 West_Sicilian 21.08
10 Turkmen 21.53
11 Romanian 21.84
12 Turkish 22.16
13 Tuscan 22.59
14 Sephardic_Jewish 22.91
15 Azeri 23.61
16 Italian_Jewish 23.73
17 Algerian_Jewish 23.78
18 Tadjik 24.47
19 Afghan_Uzbeki 24.6
20 Serbian 24.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.8% Greek + 24.2% Velamas @ 6.01
2 76.1% Greek + 23.9% Kurumba @ 6.1
3 77.3% Greek + 22.7% Piramalai @ 6.17
4 76.3% Greek + 23.7% Dusadh @ 6.28
5 76.3% Greek + 23.7% Chenchu @ 6.3
6 77.8% Greek + 22.2% Sakilli @ 6.35
7 74.5% Greek + 25.5% Dharkar @ 6.37
8 76.5% Greek + 23.5% North_Kannadi @ 6.37
9 75.1% Greek + 24.9% Kanjar @ 6.45
10 77.9% Greek + 22.1% Chamar @ 6.55
11 75.7% Greek + 24.3% Uttar_Pradesh @ 6.58
12 72.4% Greek + 27.6% Bangladeshi @ 6.61
13 72.3% Greek + 27.7% Kshatriya @ 6.75
14 76.3% Greek + 23.7% Kol @ 6.8
15 72.3% Greek + 27.7% Gujarati @ 7.09
16 71.2% Greek + 28.8% Brahmin_UP @ 7.31
17 74% Central_Greek + 26% Kanjar @ 7.65
18 75.5% Central_Greek + 24.5% North_Kannadi @ 7.66
19 67.6% Greek + 32.4% Sindhi @ 7.7
20 73.5% Central_Greek + 26.5% Dharkar @ 7.78


HarappaWorld Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 26.4
2 NE-Euro 17.53
3 Mediterranean 17.34
4 S-Indian 13
5 Baloch 11.91
6 SW-Asian 9.05
7 SE-Asian 2.12
8 Papuan 1.85
9 Beringian 0.45
10 Pygmy 0.29
11 American 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 romanian-b (behar) 9.41
2 ashkenazi (harappa) 16.33
3 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 16.7
4 turk-aydin (hodoglugil) 17.45
5 tuscan (1000genomes) 20.21
6 tuscan (hgdp) 20.54
7 sephardic-jew (behar) 20.61
8 tuscan (hapmap) 20.92
9 morocco-jew (behar) 21.34
10 romanian-a (behar) 21.98
11 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 22.03
12 turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) 22.45
13 turkmen (yunusbayev) 22.92
14 turkish (harappa) 23.25
15 turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) 23.32
16 turk (behar) 24.34
17 azeri (harappa) 25.16
18 nogai (yunusbayev) 25.24
19 iraqi-arab (harappa) 25.26
20 stalskoe (xing) 25.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.3% ashkenazi (harappa) + 27.7% bengali-brahmin (harappa) @ 3.06
2 75.2% ashkenazi (harappa) + 24.8% srivastava (reich) @ 3.13
3 72.7% ashkenazi (harappa) + 27.3% bihari-muslim (harappa) @ 3.24
4 73.4% ashkenazi (harappa) + 26.6% vaish (reich) @ 3.27
5 74.9% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25.1% bihari (harappa) @ 3.28
6 74.9% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25.1% caribbean-indian (harappa) @ 3.32
7 72.9% ashkenazi (harappa) + 27.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 3.36
8 74.1% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25.9% karnataka-brahmin (harappa) @ 3.44
9 76% ashkenazi (harappa) + 24% up-muslim (metspalu) @ 3.46
10 74.8% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25.2% up (harappa) @ 3.47
11 76.5% ashkenazi (harappa) + 23.5% kanjar (metspalu) @ 3.48
12 76.3% ashkenazi (harappa) + 23.7% tharu (metspalu) @ 3.49
13 74.1% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25.9% up-kshatriya (metspalu) @ 3.5
14 75.1% ashkenazi (harappa) + 24.9% ap-brahmin (xing) @ 3.51
15 74.3% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25.7% maharashtrian (harappa) @ 3.53
16 76.2% ashkenazi (harappa) + 23.8% dharkar (metspalu) @ 3.56
17 75.7% ashkenazi (harappa) + 24.3% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) @ 3.59
18 74% ashkenazi (harappa) + 26% bengali (harappa) @ 3.59
19 74.5% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25.5% meghawal (reich) @ 3.63
20 75% ashkenazi (harappa) + 25% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) @ 3.64

[smd555]

SR8973420Ukraine130
BN5470881Ukraine133
YM2878648Ukraine136
QG4532062Ukraine141
YD5189065Ukraine94
TC7354274Ukraine97
NA7846664UkrainePol19
XJ7271625UkrainePol25



Aren't these samples fake?

[vbnetkhio]

Aren't these samples fake?

they don't work in some calculators.


Thanks! How can I place it on the map with other populations?

you can use this:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

[smd555]

they don't work in some calculators.



They work in Eurogenes K-13 , but their admix results are "super baltic" and they are rather far from modern populations. Is it possible? Also i saw some kits from Lviv and Belgorod with the same results, for example: EV9258569 UkrLv223 :


Kit EV9258569

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 61.93
2 North_Atlantic 16.41
3 East_Med 9.57
4 Red_Sea 4.27
5 West_Asian 3.66
6 South_Asian 1.27
7 West_Med 0.96
8 East_Asian 0.63
9 Siberian 0.54
10 Northeast_African 0.5
11 Amerindian 0.17
12 Oceanian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Erzya 15.86
2 Lithuanian 16.08
3 Estonian_Polish 17.57
4 Belorussian 17.57
5 Southwest_Russian 17.67
6 Ukrainian_Belgorod 17.8
7 Russian_Smolensk 18.15
8 Kargopol_Russian 18.55
9 Estonian 20.53
10 East_Finnish 20.77
11 Polish 21.66
12 Ukrainian 22.22
13 Finnish 22.75
14 Ukrainian_Lviv 23.13
15 South_Polish 23.98
16 Southwest_Finnish 27.39
17 Chuvash 27.89
18 Croatian 27.98
19 La_Brana-1 28.62
20 Moldavian 29.6

or this:


Kit SU2043360

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 65.78
2 West_Med 15.6
3 East_Med 9.94
4 North_Atlantic 4.06
5 South_Asian 2.08
6 West_Asian 1.75
7 Amerindian 0.58
8 Sub-Saharan 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Erzya 24.27
2 Lithuanian 26.25
3 Southwest_Russian 26.62
4 Estonian_Polish 26.72
5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 26.93
6 Kargopol_Russian 27.02
7 Russian_Smolensk 27.45
8 Belorussian 27.75
9 Ukrainian 29.17
10 Polish 30.14
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 30.18
12 Estonian 30.84
13 East_Finnish 31.47
14 South_Polish 31.95
15 Croatian 33.55
16 Finnish 33.93
17 Chuvash 34.26
18 Moldavian 34.33
19 Tatar 37.05
20 Southwest_Finnish 37.75

or this:


Kit RL6718578

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 60.07
2 East_Med 16.79
3 North_Atlantic 11.83
4 West_Med 9.61
5 Oceanian 1.03
6 Sub-Saharan 0.66
7 Amerindian 0.01
8 Northeast_African 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Erzya 19.87
2 Southwest_Russian 20.08
3 Estonian_Polish 20.5
4 Ukrainian_Belgorod 20.76
5 Lithuanian 20.97
6 Belorussian 21.03
7 Russian_Smolensk 21.46
8 Kargopol_Russian 22.15
9 Ukrainian 23.09
10 Polish 24.04
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 24.23
12 Estonian 25
13 South_Polish 25.3
14 East_Finnish 25.69
15 Croatian 27.18
16 Finnish 27.53
17 Moldavian 28.28
18 Chuvash 31
19 Southwest_Finnish 31.03
20 Hungarian 32.15

[vbnetkhio]

Is it possible?

no. they get such results because they were one of the reference samples used in the making of the k13 calculator.

[smd555]

no. they get such results because they were one of the reference samples used in the making of the k13 calculator.

All of them? What about those from Lviv?

[vbnetkhio]

All of them? What about those from Lviv?

i don't know, i didn't check all of them. just ignore the ones who get weird results.

[smd555]

i don't know, i didn't check all of them. just ignore the ones who get weird results.

Those results are situated near Finnic groups. But, maybe, they are not weird. Can you tell me, what regions of Ukraine are these samples from?:

SR8973420 Ukraine130
BN5470881 Ukraine133
YM2878648 Ukraine136
QG4532062 Ukraine141
YD5189065 Ukraine94
TC7354274 Ukraine97

[Wolfdog]

Kit EV9258569 from Lviv seems to be partially Mordovian.

Nothing fantastic iMO
Many people (especially, soviet officers and various engineers) from Central Russia (Erzya, Udmurts, Russians etc.) settled in Ukrainian cities during the middle of 20th century.

[vbnetkhio]

Those results are situated near Finnic groups. But, maybe, they are not weird. Can you tell me, what regions of Ukraine are these samples from?:
i don't know, probably from Kiev or all over Ukraine.

these results don't seem right. i think only these work properly in all calculators:

PY5552526 Ukrainian_Chernigov_R1a1c
LW5549306 Ukrainian_Chernivetska_R1a1c
JC4353470 Ukrainian_Harkiv_r1a1c
UR3255634 Ukrainian_Rivnenska_R1b8
YJ1382047 Ukrainian_Sumi_R1a1b
TG3639954 Ukrainian_Sumi_R1a1c
BN5524070 Ukrainian_Zhytomir_R1a1a

[Leto]

Hungarian from SE Slovakia and NE Hungary

Population
North_Atlantic 33.60 Pct
Baltic 37.22 Pct
West_Med 11.96 Pct
West_Asian 5.83 Pct
East_Med 8.38 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.34 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.68 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 5.88
2 South_Polish 5.95
3 East_German 6.74
4 Croatian 6.82
5 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.94
6 Austrian 8.17
7 Ukrainian 8.19
8 Polish 9.17
9 Moldavian 10.19
10 Southwest_Finnish 12.04
11 Southwest_Russian 12.1
12 Russian_Smolensk 12.4
13 Ukrainian_Belgorod 12.5
14 North_Swedish 12.8
15 Estonian_Polish 12.86
16 Belorussian 12.88
17 Serbian 13.38
18 Estonian 15.21
19 Finnish 15.26
20 North_German 15.39

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.4% Hungarian + 25.6% Estonian @ 2.86
2 75% South_Polish + 25% West_German @ 2.86
3 67.1% Ukrainian + 32.9% West_German @ 2.87
4 63% Hungarian + 37% Polish @ 2.9
5 79.8% South_Polish + 20.2% French @ 2.94
6 59.6% South_Polish + 40.4% Austrian @ 2.95
7 77% Hungarian + 23% Lithuanian @ 2.96
8 60.7% Austrian + 39.3% Southwest_Russian @ 3.01
9 57.1% Southwest_Russian + 42.9% West_German @ 3.03
10 62.2% Austrian + 37.8% Estonian_Polish @ 3.05
11 76.6% South_Polish + 23.4% South_Dutch @ 3.07
12 50.1% Austrian + 49.9% Ukrainian @ 3.07
13 50.4% Hungarian + 49.6% South_Polish @ 3.08
14 62.3% Austrian + 37.7% Belorussian @ 3.08
15 66.2% East_German + 33.8% Southwest_Russian @ 3.09
16 67.1% Croatian + 32.9% North_Swedish @ 3.1
17 68.8% Ukrainian + 31.2% South_Dutch @ 3.15
18 71.6% Hungarian + 28.4% Belorussian @ 3.15
19 54.1% South_Polish + 45.9% East_German @ 3.15
20 84.1% South_Polish + 15.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.15


Population
North_Sea 27.97 Pct
Atlantic 17.32 Pct
Baltic 20.55 Pct
Eastern_Euro 14.87 Pct
West_Med 8.06 Pct
West_Asian 5.21 Pct
East_Med 4.32 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian 0.61 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.09 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 4.92
2 East_German 5.54
3 South_Polish 8.58
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.71
5 Southwest_Finnish 8.8
6 Ukrainian 8.94
7 Croatian 9
8 Austrian 9.01
9 Finnish 9.8
10 Moldavian 10.13
11 Polish 10.35
12 North_Swedish 11.08
13 Serbian 12.52
14 North_German 12.59
15 Estonian 12.82
16 Swedish 12.83
17 West_German 12.9
18 East_Finnish 13.39
19 Russian_Smolensk 13.43
20 South_Dutch 13.62

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.4% Ukrainian + 40.6% West_German @ 2.05
2 52.1% West_German + 47.9% Southwest_Russian @ 2.48
3 52.3% West_German + 47.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.55
4 60.7% South_Polish + 39.3% West_German @ 2.55
5 60.3% Ukrainian_Lviv + 39.7% West_German @ 2.62
6 56.3% Moldavian + 43.7% Swedish @ 2.82
7 72.7% Hungarian + 27.3% North_Swedish @ 2.85
8 52.4% Moldavian + 47.6% North_Swedish @ 2.91
9 59.5% Croatian + 40.5% Swedish @ 2.94
10 55.7% Croatian + 44.3% North_Swedish @ 2.95
11 58.1% West_German + 41.9% Lithuanian @ 2.99
12 69.5% Ukrainian_Lviv + 30.5% Orcadian @ 3.03
13 64% Ukrainian_Lviv + 36% Danish @ 3.06
14 63.5% Ukrainian + 36.5% North_Dutch @ 3.06
15 68.9% Ukrainian + 31.1% Orcadian @ 3.07
16 64.2% Ukrainian_Lviv + 35.8% North_Dutch @ 3.09
17 55.9% Polish + 44.1% West_German @ 3.14
18 62.7% Ukrainian_Lviv + 37.3% Norwegian @ 3.14
19 53.4% West_German + 46.6% Belorussian @ 3.15
20 68.5% Hungarian + 31.5% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.16


Population
Gedrosia 4.49 Pct
Siberian 0.09 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 25.64 Pct
North_European 51.34 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African 0.31 Pct
Southwest_Asian 1.47 Pct
East_Asian 2.71 Pct
Caucasus 13.93 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 4.69
2 German (Dodecad) 9.13
3 Polish (Dodecad) 12.81
4 Ukranians (Yunusbayev) 14.25
5 Swedish (Dodecad) 14.67
6 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 15.28
7 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 16.51
8 Norwegian (Dodecad) 16.59
9 Dutch (Dodecad) 16.85
10 Russian (Dodecad) 18.19
11 Belorussian (Behar) 18.28
12 Russian_B (Behar) 18.95
13 Mordovians (Yunusbayev) 19.14
14 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 19.57
15 Romanians (Behar) 19.77
16 English (Dodecad) 19.81
17 Kent (1000Genomes) 19.98
18 British_Isles (Dodecad) 20.32
19 Russian (HGDP) 20.34
20 Orkney (1000Genomes) 21.32

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.9% Hungarians (Behar) + 11.1% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.25
2 84.4% Hungarians (Behar) + 15.6% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.33
3 87.9% Hungarians (Behar) + 12.1% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.34
4 89.7% Hungarians (Behar) + 10.3% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 3.35
5 89.1% Hungarians (Behar) + 10.9% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 3.36
6 79.2% Hungarians (Behar) + 20.8% Polish (Dodecad) @ 3.39
7 82.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 17.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.48
8 85.2% Hungarians (Behar) + 14.8% Belorussian (Behar) @ 3.5
9 85.7% Hungarians (Behar) + 14.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.51
10 86.9% Hungarians (Behar) + 13.1% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.6
11 86.3% Hungarians (Behar) + 13.7% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.61
12 62.4% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 37.6% French (HGDP) @ 3.68
13 68.2% Russian_B (Behar) + 31.8% Andalucia (1000Genomes) @ 3.69
14 72.9% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 27.1% Andalucia (1000Genomes) @ 3.75
15 66.4% Russian_B (Behar) + 33.6% Spaniards (Behar) @ 3.75
16 66.1% Russian (Dodecad) + 33.9% Baleares (1000Genomes) @ 3.75
17 65.2% Russian_B (Behar) + 34.8% Cataluna (1000Genomes) @ 3.77
18 65.2% Russian_B (Behar) + 34.8% Baleares (1000Genomes) @ 3.81
19 69.1% Russian (Dodecad) + 30.9% Andalucia (1000Genomes) @ 3.82
20 83.5% Hungarians (Behar) + 16.5% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.83

[smd555]

i don't know, probably from Kiev or all over Ukraine.

these results don't seem right.

They are ok, they work in another calculator. Thanks!:thumb001: