Slavic admixture in German samples on Global25

[Cernunnos]

People tend to focus a lot on Languages and religion, what people don't understand is the importance of ancient peoples and ancient invasions in the last 3000 years in our genetic past.

Romanians might speak a Latin language, but they are not a Latin people.

Hungarians might speak a Finno-Ugric language, but they are not an Ugric population.

And so on. Germans (the German Ethnic group that accounts for 80-85% of the modern day German population) is a ethnicity made up of various sub ethnic and other ethnic groups that got diluted into a "German umbrella" term created from the fall of the Roman Empire and the creation of the HRE to the Napoleonic times and the following creation of the German Empire. And it is natural, for a region and country like Germany located well within the heart of Europe (Central Europe) bordered by Scandinavia, close to the border of Italy with Austria, bordered by the Slavic world and by Western Europe.

Add that to the millions of German communities that went back to Germany after the WWII (from the former USSR, Poland, Kaliningrad/East Prussia, Hungary, Romania.....) and you have a "mulicultural/multiethnic group" like modern day Germans.

I also used to look at a map and say "Well Austrians speak German and are Catholic just like many Germans, therefore they are as Germans as all other Germans who live in Germany, why don't they just join again with Germany?". Well the truth is that Austria and Austrians to a larger extent are just Germanized Celts with ofc a significant Germanic admixture flowing in their veins, also much of Austria is still very influenced by what was once called the Rhaetian peoples, specialy along the areas of both the Tyrols, such influence doesn't exist in their closest German relatives, the Bavarians.

Europe is a complex continent, people think that Europeans behave all the same and are the same stuff with some differences (specialy among non Europeans living outside Europe), but our continent is the Continent that not along ago (1945) was divided as fuck and fighting the most bloody wars and witnessing the most horrific genocides (WWII, WWI, Holocaust, Red Terror, Prussian-French wars, Napoleonic wars, the various wars in the Medieval and early modern times).

[SharpFork]

Can someone explain to me how they see the genetic regions of Russia? Because this North vs Center vs Pomors vs East/West confuses me as to what is actually going on and where this Finnic influence extends

[Leto]

Can someone explain to me how they see the genetic regions of Russia? Because this North vs Center vs Pomors vs East/West confuses me as to what is actually going on and where this Finnic influence extends
It's a complex issue, I can send you a PM. This thread has basically descended into trolling, I don't want it to continue, not until all the socks are gone.

[SharpFork]

It's a complex issue, I can send you a PM. This thread has basically descended into trolling, I don't want it to continue, not until all the socks are gone.
Nah just ignore them, I'm probably not the only one that is not sure about how Russia is divided in this context so it's more productive to post it there

[Leto]

Nah just ignore them, I'm probably not the only one that is not sure about how Russia is divided in this context so it's more productive to post it there
I sent you a PM. In short the differences are less pronounced as many believe. Usually it's just about some extra East Eurasian and a higher frequency of N1c as both Northern and non-Northern Russians score similar amounts of Baltic and that kind of things.

On GEDmatch Russians basically range from this (Belorussian)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 47.61
2 North_Atlantic 26.49
3 West_Med 9.54
4 East_Med 5.92
5 West_Asian 5.55
6 Siberian 2.65
7 Amerindian 1.06
8 Sub-Saharan 0.82
9 Oceanian 0.26
10 South_Asian 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Russian 2.21
2 Estonian_Polish 3.49
3 Russian_Smolensk 3.88
4 Ukrainian_Belgorod 3.96
5 Belorussian 4.54
6 Ukrainian 4.85
7 Polish 5.27
8 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.34
9 Kargopol_Russian 6.54
10 South_Polish 6.78
11 Lithuanian 7.88
12 Erzya 8.49
13 Estonian 8.64
14 Finnish 10.58
15 East_Finnish 10.62
16 Croatian 12.12
17 Southwest_Finnish 12.61
18 Moldavian 14.7
19 Hungarian 15.94
20 East_German 17.49

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73% Southwest_Russian + 27% Estonian_Polish @ 1.93
2 89.7% Southwest_Russian + 10.3% Estonian @ 1.98
3 94% Southwest_Russian + 6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.06
4 86.1% Southwest_Russian + 13.9% Polish @ 2.06
5 85.1% Southwest_Russian + 14.9% Ukrainian @ 2.07
6 93.5% Southwest_Russian + 6.5% East_Finnish @ 2.08
7 84.9% Southwest_Russian + 15.1% Belorussian @ 2.09
8 93.6% Southwest_Russian + 6.4% Finnish @ 2.09
9 98.7% Southwest_Russian + 1.3% French_Basque @ 2.1
10 92.5% Southwest_Russian + 7.5% Lithuanian @ 2.12
11 98.4% Southwest_Russian + 1.6% Southwest_French @ 2.12
12 99.1% Southwest_Russian + 0.9% Sardinian @ 2.14
13 92.3% Southwest_Russian + 7.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.15
14 98.7% Southwest_Russian + 1.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.15
15 98.9% Southwest_Russian + 1.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.16
16 87.7% Southwest_Russian + 12.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.16
17 97.8% Southwest_Russian + 2.2% North_Swedish @ 2.16
18 93.8% Southwest_Russian + 6.2% South_Polish @ 2.17
19 99% Southwest_Russian + 1% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.17
20 99% Southwest_Russian + 1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.17

* * *

# Population Percent
1 North_European 59.45
2 Atlantic_Med 22.15
3 Caucasus 9.97
4 Gedrosia 4.67
5 Siberian 2.04
6 Sub_Saharan 1.24
7 Northwest_African 0.36
8 Southwest_Asian 0.12


to this (Perm Krai)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 47.18
2 North_Atlantic 25.11
3 Siberian 9.39
4 West_Asian 7.47
5 West_Med 4.78
6 South_Asian 2.64
7 Amerindian 1.74
8 East_Asian 1.05
9 Oceanian 0.34
10 Sub-Saharan 0.3

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kargopol_Russian 4.53
2 Erzya 5.91
3 East_Finnish 7.57
4 Finnish 9.84
5 Southwest_Russian 9.95
6 Ukrainian_Belgorod 10.47
7 Estonian_Polish 10.8
8 Estonian 10.83
9 Russian_Smolensk 10.84
10 Belorussian 11.34
11 Lithuanian 11.97
12 Ukrainian 12.41
13 Polish 12.49
14 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.77
15 South_Polish 13.64
16 Southwest_Finnish 14.1
17 Tatar 14.93
18 Chuvash 15.04
19 Croatian 18.3
20 La_Brana-1 19.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.5% Estonian + 41.5% Chuvash @ 2.72
2 81.4% Kargopol_Russian + 18.6% Chuvash @ 3.02
3 93.7% Kargopol_Russian + 6.3% Shors @ 3.18
4 80.7% Lithuanian + 19.3% Shors @ 3.18
5 86.6% Kargopol_Russian + 13.4% Mari @ 3.18
6 94.2% Kargopol_Russian + 5.8% Hakas @ 3.22
7 95% Kargopol_Russian + 5% Altaian @ 3.3
8 95.7% Kargopol_Russian + 4.3% Tuvinian @ 3.36
9 96.6% Kargopol_Russian + 3.4% Evenki @ 3.37
10 94.3% Kargopol_Russian + 5.7% Kazakh @ 3.37
11 96.3% Kargopol_Russian + 3.7% Dolgan @ 3.37
12 95.1% Kargopol_Russian + 4.9% Ket @ 3.38
13 95.1% Kargopol_Russian + 4.9% Selkup @ 3.38
14 96.4% Kargopol_Russian + 3.6% Yakut @ 3.38
15 96.7% Kargopol_Russian + 3.3% Evens @ 3.39
16 96.5% Kargopol_Russian + 3.5% Oroqen @ 3.4
17 96.1% Kargopol_Russian + 3.9% Buryat @ 3.41
18 56.1% Lithuanian + 43.9% Chuvash @ 3.42
19 94.8% Kargopol_Russian + 5.2% Kirgiz @ 3.42
20 95.8% Kargopol_Russian + 4.2% Mongolian @ 3.47

* * *

# Population Percent
1 North_European 56.43
2 Atlantic_Med 16.67
3 Siberian 9.66
4 Gedrosia 6.79
5 Caucasus 6.61
6 East_Asian 2.1
7 South_Asian 1.67
8 Southeast_Asian 0.05

Make of it what you want.

[Ljubic]

https://i.imgur.com/0Xl9d6O.png
https://i.imgur.com/U9LRy2v.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WW9kNhS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/un4e72n.jpg

Those are only four maps but there are more than enough that show the same region as slavic homeland. It doesnt matter where they came from 10000 years ago because many Europeans have ancestry from east of modern Ukraine. The Slavic languages are very young hence why the first Slavic kingdoms used languages which were very similiar to eachother and only developed the last 1500 years.Also to think any of todays Nations would have a population the same as the area around the Slavic homeland 1500 years ago is ridiculous. The Ukraine, Eastern Poland and Belarus would be closest but even they must gotten foreign admixture in their Gene Pool in the last millenium.

[Karol Klačansky]

looks like genetics in confirming this as the slavic homeland as well.

[Sche]

looks like genetics in confirming this as the slavic homeland as well.
No, these are obsolete cards. Today, the opinion of archaeologists is different:
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/987ymPB/3-42.jpg" alt="3-42" border="0">
Considering that Belarusians mixed strongly with the Balts. Northern Russians mixed with the Finns, and the ancient Slavs of eastern Ukraine almost completely fled from the Mongols to the east, the last unmixed Slavs are residents of Orel, Kursk, Moscow.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

Moscow was Uralic territory too (South-Eastern Contact Area of Finnic Languages in the Light of Onomastics (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47fb/e42ea5a9fad12f9f652a3f1af71fccbf80e4.pdf)):

https://i.imgur.com/wy7BhZv.png

[SharpFork]

and the ancient Slavs of eastern Ukraine almost completely fled from the Mongols to the east

Except we have no evidence of that, how come Ukranians were still strongly orthodox until protracted PLC rule over the region? Why isn't half of Ukraine West Slavic or Romanian and the other half straight up Russian if this supposed repopulation happened? Did the 2 populations magically mix and somehow emulate the development of a older regional population?

[Leto]

Expect we have no evidence of that, how come Ukranians were still strongly orthodox until protracted PLC rule over the region? Why isn't half of Ukraine West Slavic or Romanian and the other half straight up Russian if this supposed repopulation happened? Did the 2 populations magically mix and somehow emulate the development of a older regional population?
Ukraine east of Kiev was pretty much depopulated in the Middle Ages and the first people to settle in there were Cossacks (after 1500). The same goes for Southern and Southwestern Russia (depopulation and then repopulation in the past 400 years). Google "the wild fields". If you can read in Russian, I would recommend the book by Kabuzan on the population of Russia in the 18th century.

[SharpFork]

Ukraine east of Kiev was pretty much depopulated in the Middle Ages and the first people to settle in there were Cossacks (after 1500). The same goes for Southern and Southwestern Russia (depopulation and then repopulation in the past 400 years). Google "the wild fields". If you can read in Russian, I would recommend the book by Kabuzan on the population of Russia in the 18th century.
But the thing is the wildfields or the general European Steppe area continue into Russia up to the middle Volga, plus his argument was that some southern population repopulated or had a relevant input in Ukraine during this period, which we have no real evidence for.

[Leto]

But the thing is the wildfields or the general European Steppe area continue into Russia up to the middle Volga, plus his argument was that some southern population repopulated or had a relevant input in Ukraine during this period, which we have no real evidence for.
Well, I'm not commenting on what the guy claims, he is not to be taken seriously. Obviously Ukrainians are overwhelmingly Slavic. The Wild Fields in the North were repopulated mainly by Central Russians (Moscow, Ryazan, Tula, Vladimir) while more Southern parts saw a large influx of Little Russians i.e. modern Ukrainians, presumably from around Kiev or more Western areas.

[celticdragongod]

Source


Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239,0.0750219,0.0695957 ,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.0006946
Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0575551, 0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
Germanic:Swedish,0.1340007,0.1283722,0.0715329,0.0 557909,0.0414202,0.0213225,0.006847,0.0089682,0.00 46947,-0.0067261,-0.004451,0.001635,-0.0048315,-0.0036907,0.0150773,0.0039838,-0.0074379,0.002004,0.003851,0.0046385,0.0064205,0. 0021357,0.0009244,0.0106969,-0.0002994
Germanic:Norwegian,0.1338234,0.1279567,0.0679357,0 .0534334,0.0386443,0.0210366,0.0041964,0.0062964,0 .0057267,0.0003906,-0.0037349,0.0036823,-0.007518,-0.011698,0.0210754,0.0093949,-0.0054203,0.0026061,0.0006823,0.0007503,0.005633,0 .0055643,0.0042784,0.0177304,0.0010947
British_Isles:English,0.1318551,0.137043,0.0617883 ,0.044013,0.0392299,0.0167481,0.0049845,0.0057448, 0.0052637,0.0056781,-0.0047691,0.0056161,-0.0125892,-0.0103507,0.0206153,0.0035521,-0.0103689,0.004094,0.003685,0.0029619,0.0059369,0. 0034036,-0.0032693,0.0137938,3.16e-05
British_Isles:Scottish,0.1314657,0.1342312,0.06226 54,0.0470426,0.039106,0.0172812,0.0035502,0.005175 6,0.0035719,0.0028246,-0.005614,0.0050473,-0.0116806,-0.0119731,0.023024,0.0031254,-0.0112549,0.0027736,0.0025499,0.0014516,0.0042246, 0.0033076,-0.0006559,0.0135561,-0.0007698
British_Isles:Irish,0.1334042,0.134875,0.0610876,0 .0482532,0.0383388,0.0188992,0.003,0.0047738,0.003 1318,0.002725,-0.00714,0.005606,-0.0143759,-0.0139278,0.0253478,0.0048208,-0.0110725,0.0022052,0.0007502,0.0013385,0.0051745, 0.0012249,-0.0003563,0.0147667,0.0010665
South_Euro:Spanish_La_Rioja,0.121791,0.152329,0.04 6763,-0.008398,0.053856,-0.010598,-0.00188,0.002308,0.027611,0.038816,-0.005359,0.005695,-0.016947,-0.014863,0.00665,0.013657,0.010561,-0.002407,-0.000628,5e-04,0.012977,0.002349,-0.002218,-0.009399,0.000838
South_Euro:Italian_Lazio,0.1146768,0.1525832,0.006 694,-0.0350455,0.0213115,-0.0115738,0.0024675,0.000519,0.0068512,0.0234627,0 .001299,0.0028475,-0.007656,-0.0070875,-0.0068538,0.0041432,-0.000228,-0.0005068,0.0018225,-0.005065,-0.002745,0.0033695,-0.0003697,-0.0003613,-0.000479
South_Euro:Greek,0.1188166,0.1432553,0.0110825,-0.0218181,0.0199441,-0.0057308,0.0018876,-0.0005657,0.0003365,0.0140615,0.0013253,0.0026783,-0.0031122,0.0055359,-0.0157304,0.0001284,0.0108639,-0.0001881,0.0054942,-0.0034169,-0.0075352,0.0016673,0.0023219,0.0006219,-0.0020898


using Ukrainians and Belarusians as proxies for Slavic ancestry among west and south slavs
https://i.ibb.co/4S9QGdZ/Slavic-populations-ethnicity-breakdown.jpg (https://ibb.co/PW3SnQZ)

My Results:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
British_Isles:Scottish British_Isles:Irish
0.1700079 0.1871597
British_Isles:English Germanic:Norwegian
0.1905219 0.2281643
Germanic:Swedish Ukrainian
0.2562369 0.6912538
Belarusian South_Euro:Spanish_La_Rioja
0.7819272 0.9599866
South_Euro:Greek South_Euro:Italian_Lazio
1.0975789 1.1963705

[1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
[1] "penalty= 0"
[1] "Ncycles= 1000"


[1] "distance%=1.6418"

cdg_scaled

British_Isles,81
Germanic,18.6
Belarusian,0.2
South_Euro,0.2

[1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
[1] "penalty= 0.001"
[1] "Ncycles= 1000"

[1] "distance%=1.6436"

cdg_scaled

British_Isles,86.4
Germanic,11.8
Belarusian,1.8

[Slavic Italian]

Well, I'm not commenting on what the guy claims, he is not to be taken seriously. Obviously Ukrainians are overwhelmingly Slavic. The Wild Fields in the North were repopulated mainly by Central Russians (Moscow, Ryazan, Tula, Vladimir) while more Southern parts saw a large influx of Little Russians i.e. modern Ukrainians, presumably from around Kiev or more Western areas.

Good stuff. Thanks.