View Full Version : Balto-Slavic scale
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316490-Slavic-G25-(ancient)-calculator
EAST SLAVS
Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 1.0938% / 0.01093765 | ADC: 0.25x
93.2 Slavic
5.6 Baltic
1.2 Greco-Roman
Target: Cossack_Ukrainian
Distance: 1.5351% / 0.01535052 | ADC: 0.25x
91.6 Slavic
5.4 Baltic
3.0 Turkic
Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 1.2042% / 0.01204195 | ADC: 0.25x
85.0 Slavic
14.4 Baltic
0.6 Turkic
Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 1.1321% / 0.01132058 | ADC: 0.25x
82.2 Slavic
15.8 Baltic
2.0 Turkic
Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 1.3664% / 0.01366360 | ADC: 0.25x
80.2 Slavic
16.4 Baltic
3.4 Turkic
Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 1.3334% / 0.01333423 | ADC: 0.25x
77.2 Slavic
22.0 Baltic
0.8 Germanic
Target: Belarusian
Distance: 0.8887% / 0.00888739 | ADC: 0.25x
77.0 Slavic
23.0 Baltic
Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 1.3907% / 0.01390705 | ADC: 0.25x
70.2 Slavic
22.6 Baltic
4.0 Finnic
3.2 Turkic
Target: Cossack_Kuban
Distance: 2.5871% / 0.02587057 | ADC: 0.25x
66.0 Slavic
20.2 Baltic
11.6 Finnic
2.2 Turkic
Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 1.1661% / 0.01166087 | ADC: 0.25x
59.6 Slavic
20.4 Finnic
20.0 Baltic
Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 1.1871% / 0.01187116 | ADC: 0.25x
36.4 Finnic
34.6 Baltic
29.0 Slavic
WEST SLAVS
Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x
86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic
Target: Slovakian
Distance: 1.9145% / 0.01914454 | ADC: 0.25x
84.2 Slavic
10.8 Balkan
4.2 Germanic
0.8 Baltic
Target: Sorb_Niederlausitz
Distance: 1.9298% / 0.01929826 | ADC: 0.25x
67.0 Slavic
18.2 Baltic
14.8 Balkan
Target: Czech
Distance: 1.1885% / 0.01188460 | ADC: 0.25x
56.6 Slavic
34.2 Germanic
5.2 Balkan
2.6 Greco-Roman
1.4 Celtic
Target: Leto_scaled
Distance: 2.0593% / 0.02059328 | ADC: 0.25x
69.0 Slavic
15.4 Baltic
11.2 Finnic
4.4 Turkic
SOUTH SLAVS
Target: Slovenian
Distance: 1.0270% / 0.01026978 | ADC: 0.25x
64.2 Slavic
20.0 Balkan
6.4 Celtic
5.4 Germanic
4.0 Greco-Roman
Target: Bosnian
Distance: 1.3965% / 0.01396526 | ADC: 0.25x
63.6 Slavic
23.0 Balkan
13.4 Greco-Roman
Target: Croatian
Distance: 0.8581% / 0.00858078 | ADC: 0.25x
63.4 Slavic
16.8 Balkan
10.2 Germanic
9.6 Greco-Roman
Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.1471% / 0.01147061 | ADC: 0.25x
51.0 Slavic
37.6 Balkan
11.4 Greco-Roman
Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.2279% / 0.01227887 | ADC: 0.25x
46.8 Balkan
46.6 Slavic
6.6 Greco-Roman
Target: Macedonian
Distance: 1.3930% / 0.01392968 | ADC: 0.25x
44.4 Slavic
39.0 Balkan
16.6 Greco-Roman
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2016% / 0.01201572 | ADC: 0.25x
46.0 Balkan
38.2 Slavic
15.8 Greco-Roman
Target: Ford
Distance: 2.0068% / 0.02006836 | ADC: 0.25x
64.0 Slavic
29.8 Balkan
4.2 Celtic
2.0 Greco-Roman
BALTS
Target: Lithuanian_PA
Distance: 1.1976% / 0.01197584 | ADC: 0.25x
71.6 Slavic
28.4 Baltic
Target: Lithuanian_VA
Distance: 1.1512% / 0.01151199 | ADC: 0.25x
63.2 Slavic
36.8 Baltic
Target: Lithuanian_RA
Distance: 1.3470% / 0.01347033 | ADC: 0.25x
56.6 Slavic
43.4 Baltic
Target: Lithuanian_VZ
Distance: 1.3510% / 0.01350972 | ADC: 0.25x
50.8 Slavic
49.2 Baltic
Target: Lithuanian_SZ
Distance: 0.9941% / 0.00994124 | ADC: 0.25x
58.6 Baltic
41.4 Slavic
Target: Latvian
Distance: 1.0416% / 0.01041556 | ADC: 0.25x
62.6 Baltic
36.6 Slavic
0.4 Finnic
0.4 Turkic
Target: Lithuanian_PZ
Distance: 1.1195% / 0.01119473 | ADC: 0.25x
65.0 Baltic
34.6 Slavic
0.4 Germanic
Run Estonians please, they're related after all.
Interesting how it detects minor Turkic input in Cossacks. :)
Interesting how it detects minor Turkic input in Cossacks. :)
The Turkic is BS most likely. Tver has no "Turkic" in reality, neither do I.
Run Estonians please, they're related after all.
URALICS
Target: Mordovian
Distance: 1.3357% / 0.01335686 | ADC: 0.25x
59.0 Slavic
19.8 Baltic
13.6 Finnic
7.6 Turkic
Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.7988% / 0.00798832 | ADC: 0.25x
52.8 Slavic
23.8 Germanic
21.8 Balkan
1.6 Greco-Roman
Target: Vepsian
Distance: 1.4608% / 0.01460836 | ADC: 0.25x
36.0 Slavic
32.8 Baltic
31.2 Finnic
Target: Estonian
Distance: 1.4208% / 0.01420832 | ADC: 0.25x
49.2 Baltic
32.6 Slavic
12.0 Germanic
6.2 Finnic
Target: Ingrian
Distance: 1.4901% / 0.01490079 | ADC: 0.25x
32.4 Baltic
31.0 Slavic
21.8 Finnic
14.8 Germanic
Target: Karelian
Distance: 1.2532% / 0.01253188 | ADC: 0.25x
39.4 Baltic
29.8 Finnic
23.0 Slavic
7.8 Germanic
Target: Komi
Distance: 1.7756% / 0.01775551 | ADC: 0.25x
52.8 Finnic
29.4 Slavic
12.0 Baltic
5.8 Turkic
Target: Finnish
Distance: 1.4784% / 0.01478370 | ADC: 0.25x
34.2 Baltic
32.4 Germanic
21.0 Finnic
12.4 Slavic
Target: Udmurt
Distance: 3.6613% / 0.03661306 | ADC: 0.25x
74.6 Finnic
16.8 Turkic
8.6 Slavic
Target: Finnish_East
Distance: 1.5728% / 0.01572783 | ADC: 0.25x
44.0 Baltic
31.0 Finnic
20.4 Germanic
4.6 Slavic
Mari, Khanty and Mansy score no Balto-Slavic admixture.
The Turkic is BS most likely. Tver has no "Turkic" in reality, neither do I.
It's not like you know personally people from Tver who gave samples, they can be from anywhere. As I said, this is all using ancient samples. People don't score something if they don't have it.
Small Turkic in Cossacks in expected.
Dušan
03-01-2020, 04:52 PM
How to get these results?
It's not like you know personally people from Tver who gave samples, they can be from anywhere. As I said, this is all using ancient samples. People don't score something if they don't have it.
Small Turkic in Cossacks in expected.
Oh yeah, you created a bogus run just yesterday and now it's supposed to be very accurate. No offense but some people love the "Tatar" in us which they seriously exaggerate.
Oh yeah, you created a bogus run just yesterday and now it's supposed to be very accurate. No offense but some people love the "Tatar" in us which they seriously exaggerate.
I am just amazed at your hysteria over scoring 3% Turkic. Turkic I used are Ottoman and Kazakhstan Turk samples, complain to people who sampled them.
I am just amazed at your hysteria over scoring 3% Turkic. Turkic I used are Ottoman and Kazakhstan Turk samples, complain to people who sampled them.
Okay, never mind. I really don't want to ruin the thread. Sorry.
How to get these results?
You need to get G25 coordinates from Davidski for 12 USD.
https://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html
Okay, never mind. I really don't want to ruin the thread. Sorry.
Stears scores it too, it it makes you feel better. I don't know, maybe your extra Siberian spilling over. But than again most Finnics don't score it.
Stears scores it too, it it makes you feel better. I don't know, maybe your extra Siberian spilling over.
Yes, it does make me feel better. Stears is a Western man :cool:
Yes, it does make me feel better. Stears is a Western man :cool:
Target: Feiichy_scaled
Distance: 2.8143% / 0.02814278 | ADC: 0.25x
68.0 Slavic
30.0 Balkan
2.0 Greco-Roman
Target: Stears_scaled
Distance: 1.5190% / 0.01518989 | ADC: 0.25x
55.8 Slavic
27.0 Balkan
13.0 Germanic
3.0 Turkic
1.2 Greco-Roman
GERMANICS
Target: German_East
Distance: 1.1977% / 0.01197665 | ADC: 0.25x
42.6 Slavic
40.4 Germanic
8.6 Celtic
7.6 Balkan
0.8 Baltic
Target: Austrian
Distance: 0.8938% / 0.00893755 | ADC: 0.25x
35.2 Slavic
29.4 Germanic
26.6 Balkan
8.8 Celtic
Target: German
Distance: 0.9219% / 0.00921927 | ADC: 0.25x
60.4 Germanic
16.6 Balkan
14.8 Slavic
8.2 Celtic
Target: Swedish
Distance: 1.5870% / 0.01587048 | ADC: 0.25x
80.2 Germanic
8.8 Baltic
5.6 Celtic
5.0 Slavic
0.4 Finnic
Target: Icelandic
Distance: 2.1379% / 0.02137914 | ADC: 0.25x
97.2 Germanic
2.8 Baltic
Dutch, English, Norwegian and Swiss-Germans score no Balto-Slavic. Danish average is missing.
TATARS
Target: Tatar_Mishar
Distance: 1.6149% / 0.01614918 | ADC: 0.25x
55.4 Slavic
24.6 Turkic
20.0 Finnic
Target: Tatar_Kazan
Distance: 1.5410% / 0.01541028 | ADC: 0.25x
36.8 Slavic
32.0 Turkic
31.2 Finnic
Target: Tatar_Lipka
Distance: 2.1234% / 0.02123428 | ADC: 0.25x
64.4 Turkic
29.4 Slavic
5.8 Finnic
0.4 Baltic
Siberian Tatars score no Balto-Slav admixture.
ROMANCE
Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.0632% / 0.01063249 | ADC: 0.25x
51.2 Balkan
39.2 Slavic
9.6 Greco-Roman
Target: Moldavian
Distance: 1.1341% / 0.01134094 | ADC: 0.25x
38.8 Slavic
37.2 Balkan
24.0 Greco-Roman
Target: Italian_Northeast
Distance: 0.9346% / 0.00934607 | ADC: 0.25x
12.2 Slavic
Didn't post other admix because this calc is nonsensical for SW Europeans othwerwise. Other Romance groups score no Balto-Slavic obviously.
TATARS
Target: Tatar_Mishar
Distance: 1.6149% / 0.01614918 | ADC: 0.25x
55.4 Slavic
24.6 Turkic
20.0 Finnic
Target: Tatar_Kazan
Distance: 1.5410% / 0.01541028 | ADC: 0.25x
36.8 Slavic
32.0 Turkic
31.2 Finnic
Target: Tatar_Lipka
Distance: 2.1234% / 0.02123428 | ADC: 0.25x
64.4 Turkic
29.4 Slavic
5.8 Finnic
0.4 Baltic
Siberian Tatars score no Balto-Slav admixture.
Add the Chuvash to that list, they are Oghur Turkic, no other member in that group.
GREEKS AND ALBANIANS
Target: Greek_Thrace
Distance: 3.3719% / 0.03371884 | ADC: 0.25x
42.8 Balkan
29.4 Greco-Roman
27.8 Slavic
Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2254% / 0.01225401 | ADC: 0.25x
48.2 Balkan
29.4 Greco-Roman
22.4 Slavic
Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.3211% / 0.01321126 | ADC: 0.25x
61.2 Balkan
19.6 Greco-Roman
19.2 Slavic
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.0292% / 0.01029166 | ADC: 0.25x
58.6 Balkan
30.6 Greco-Roman
10.8 Slavic
Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.0765% / 0.01076521 | ADC: 0.25x
53.0 Greco-Roman
37.0 Balkan
9.2 Slavic
0.8 Baltic
Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 1.0445% / 0.01044522 | ADC: 0.25x
91.6 Greco-Roman
7.2 Slavic
1.2 Baltic
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.4910% / 0.01491038 | ADC: 0.25x
59.0 Balkan
36.2 Greco-Roman
4.8 Baltic
Greeks from Trabzon, Kos and Central Anatolia score no Balto-Slavic.
Add the Chuvash to that list, they are Oghur Turkic, no other member in that group.
Target: Chuvash
Distance: 5.6101% / 0.05610102 | ADC: 0.25x
75.4 Finnic
11.4 Turkic
8.6 Slavic
4.6 Balkan
Cumansky
03-01-2020, 06:03 PM
Target: Cossack_Ukrainian
Distance: 1.5351% / 0.01535052 | ADC: 0.25x
91.6 Slavic
5.4 Baltic
3.0 Turkic
Target: Cossack_Ukrainian:GS000035238
Distance: 4.0738% / 0.04073780
58.6 WHITE:Icelandic
21.6 Kazakh
12.0 Iraqi_Jew
3.4 Karaite_Egypt
1.8 BLACK:Gambian
1.2 BLACK:Ethiopian_Oromo
1.0 Selkup
0.4 AMERICAN:Chipewyan
Cumansky
03-01-2020, 06:03 PM
Feiichy in 650 AD where was your Slavic ancestors?
Ljubic
03-01-2020, 06:13 PM
Feiichy in 650 AD where was your Slavic ancestors?
Cumanskyland
Cumansky
03-01-2020, 06:18 PM
Cumanskyland
Slovenians are from Northern Russia in 650 AD
Draguvity my ancestor was in Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey, etc we are Slavs too ;)
Ljubic
03-01-2020, 06:38 PM
Slovenians are from Northern Russia in 650 AD
Draguvity my ancestor was in Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey, etc we are Slavs too ;)
Her ancestors are from all of Europe if were talking about all of them until 650 AD. I thought you were talking about Paternal ancestry which in fact is from Ukraine/Poland if the Haplogroup PH908.
Cumansky
03-01-2020, 06:43 PM
Her ancestors are from all of Europe if were talking about all of them until 650 AD. I thought you were talking about Paternal ancestry which in fact is from Ukraine/Poland if the Haplogroup PH908.
I don't know about Yugoslav clades, we have good records in my country, and the other countries where my ancestors came from
JohnnyP
03-08-2020, 04:29 PM
deleted.
Teutonski
03-08-2020, 04:30 PM
How you do this?
Art23
03-08-2020, 04:53 PM
Me
Distance: 2.8516% / 0.02851567 | ADC: 0.25x
91.8 Slavic
4.6 Baltic
3.0 Greco-Roman
0.6 Balkan
The calculator is quite anti-Balkan, isn't it?
Without ADC:
Distance: 2.6334% / 0.02633418
38.6 Baltic
31.8 Slavic
19.8 Balkan
5.8 Greco-Roman
4.0 Turkic
How you do this?
You need G25 coordinates from Eurogenes web shop.
Me
Distance: 2.8516% / 0.02851567 | ADC: 0.25x
91.8 Slavic
4.6 Baltic
3.0 Greco-Roman
0.6 Balkan
The calculator is quite anti-Balkan, isn't it?
Without ADC:
Distance: 2.6334% / 0.02633418
38.6 Baltic
31.8 Slavic
19.8 Balkan
5.8 Greco-Roman
4.0 Turkic
It's not, there are more Paleo-Balkan samples than old Slavic ones (5 vs 3)
I might add Bulgar sample for Turkics.
Karol Klačansky
05-26-2020, 10:34 PM
Target: Karol_scaled
Distance: 0.0308% / 0.03077132 | ADC: 0.25x
65.4 Slavic
14.2 Germanic
8.6 Balkan
7.4 Celtic
4.2 Baltic
0.2 Finnic
I think this might be one of the lowest distances I've ever gotten on G25. Nice Calc Feichy
Karol Klačansky
05-26-2020, 10:39 PM
Is there a western Ukrainian average on G25? If so can you do that one.
Also where @peterski at, he should share his results.
Bosniensis
05-26-2020, 10:43 PM
Target: Bosniensis_scaled
Distance: 1.8284% / 0.01828440
46.6 Slavic
31.4 Greco-Roman
13.8 Balkan
8.2 Baltic
Target: Bosniensis_scaled
Distance: 1.8284% / 0.01828440
46.6 Slavic
31.4 Greco-Roman
13.8 Balkan
8.2 Baltic
Calculator is designed for 0.25X, not 0 pen which gives innacurate results.
Target: Sorb_Niederlausitz
Distance: 1.9298% / 0.01929826 | ADC: 0.25x
67.0 Slavic
18.2 Baltic
14.8 Balkan
0 Germanic?
It seems to be wrongly calibrated.
Target: Sorb_Niederlausitz
Distance: 1.9298% / 0.01929826 | ADC: 0.25x
67.0 Slavic
18.2 Baltic
14.8 Balkan
0 Germanic?
It seems to be wrongly calibrated.
They score no similarity with medieval Germanic samples, sorry. Not weird considering they plot east of Czechs.
However Balkan samples have some western european drift, especially those from Croatia.
My guess is David handpicked purest Sorbs for his average he could find. His Polish average is also very Slavic and eastern shifted.
Skiz-gaaR
07-17-2020, 04:50 AM
WEST SLAVS
Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x
86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic
Target: Slovakian
Distance: 1.9145% / 0.01914454 | ADC: 0.25x
84.2 Slavic
10.8 Balkan
4.2 Germanic
0.8 Baltic
Target: Sorb_Niederlausitz
Distance: 1.9298% / 0.01929826 | ADC: 0.25x
67.0 Slavic
18.2 Baltic
14.8 Balkan
Target: Czech
Distance: 1.1885% / 0.01188460 | ADC: 0.25x
56.6 Slavic
34.2 Germanic
5.2 Balkan
2.6 Greco-Roman
1.4 Celtic
How do Slovaks and Sorbs have Balkan but Poles don't? Sorbs are further west than Poles
-Scar-
08-15-2020, 11:03 PM
WEST SLAVS
Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x
86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic
Best model based on historical data.
Before the Slavic migration the people in Western Poland were Swedish-like, clearly there was a large scale replacement.
Token
08-17-2020, 01:18 PM
Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.7988% / 0.00798832 | ADC: 0.25x
52.8 Slavic
23.8 Germanic
21.8 Balkan
1.6 Greco-Roman
I've been playing with this Hungarian academic average with qpAdm. Apparently they don't need anything besides Germanic and Slavic, the Balkan stuff is just Global25 overfitting the data. This is one of the models that i ran (obs: qpAdm does not distinguish North Europeans, so Germany_EMedieval is a stand in for both Slavic and Germanic. The exact proportions of both should be analysed using G25):
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval 0.873 +- 0.100
Lech_MBA 0.127 +- 0.100
chisq 10.154
tail prob 0 516617
So Lech_MBA isn't required (and neither are Hungary_Scythian and Croatia_EIA) since the std.error is basically equal to the admixture coefficient, so the nested model with only Germany_EMedieval (p-value: 0.14) is closer to optimal.
Full output:
left pops:
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval.SG
Germany_Lech_MBA
right pops:
Czech_Vestonice16
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
Jordan_PPNB
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Cameroon_SMA.DG
Anatolia_N
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
Russia_HG_Karelia
0 Hungarian 20
1 Germany_EMedieval.SG 35
2 Germany_Lech_MBA 7
3 Czech_Vestonice16 1
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
6 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 1
7 Jordan_PPNB 4
8 Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 4
9 Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1
10 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 6
11 Iran_GanjDareh_N 8
12 Cameroon_SMA.DG 1
13 Anatolia_N 22
14 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 3
15 Russia_HG_Karelia 2
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 593124 indivs: 117
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
dof (jackknife): 602.170
numsnps used: 46474
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 10.154 tail: 0.51661742 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -10.154 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.491
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.268
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.060
Jordan_PPNB -0.175
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.095
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.757
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.364
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.759
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.266
Anatolia_N 0.177
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.180
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.621
A:
scale 941.312
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.204
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.399
full rank 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 10.154 taildiff: 0.51661742
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.520 -0.475
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.145 0.221
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.102 0.032
Jordan_PPNB -0.226 1.608
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.080 0.028
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.674 1.886
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.357 1.491
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.776 0.505
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.309 -0.603
Anatolia_N 0.145 1.543
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.170 0.137
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.692 -0.584
A:
scale 991.102 3066.804
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.674 1.243
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.243 0.674
best coefficients: 0.873 0.127
ssres:
0.000479023 0.000581661 0.000056186 0.000515624 0.000479649 0.001012712 0.000723984 0.000529943 0.000338111 0.000651928 0.000560565 0.000512255
0.828304055 1.005779384 0.097153245 0.891591578 0.829385221 1.751132727 1.251877553 0.916352117 0.584644749 1.127281671 0.969301143 0.885767176
Jackknife mean: 0.864886518 0.135113482
std. errors: 0.100 0.100
error covariance (* 1000000)
10007 -10007
-10007 10007
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 10.154 0.516617 0.873 0.127
01 1 12 12.339 0.418882 1.000 -0.000
10 1 12 41.981 3.35445e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.516617 - -
best pat: 01 0.418882 chi(nested): 2.185 p-value for nested model: 0.139368
I've been playing with this Hungarian academic average with qpAdm. Apparently they don't need anything besides Germanic and Slavic, the Balkan stuff is just Global25 overfitting the data. This is one of the models that i ran (obs: qpAdm does not distinguish North Europeans, so Germany_EMedieval is a stand in for both Slavic and Germanic. The exact proportions of both should be analysed using G25):
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval 0.873 +- 0.100
Lech_MBA 0.127 +- 0.100
chisq 10.154
tail prob 0 516617
So Lech_MBA isn't required (and neither are Hungary_Scythian and Croatia_EIA) since the std.error is basically equal to the admixture coefficient, so the nested model with only Germany_EMedieval (p-value: 0.14) is closer to optimal.
Full output:
left pops:
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval.SG
Germany_Lech_MBA
right pops:
Czech_Vestonice16
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
Jordan_PPNB
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Cameroon_SMA.DG
Anatolia_N
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
Russia_HG_Karelia
0 Hungarian 20
1 Germany_EMedieval.SG 35
2 Germany_Lech_MBA 7
3 Czech_Vestonice16 1
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
6 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 1
7 Jordan_PPNB 4
8 Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 4
9 Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1
10 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 6
11 Iran_GanjDareh_N 8
12 Cameroon_SMA.DG 1
13 Anatolia_N 22
14 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 3
15 Russia_HG_Karelia 2
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 593124 indivs: 117
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
dof (jackknife): 602.170
numsnps used: 46474
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 10.154 tail: 0.51661742 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -10.154 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.491
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.268
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.060
Jordan_PPNB -0.175
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.095
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.757
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.364
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.759
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.266
Anatolia_N 0.177
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.180
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.621
A:
scale 941.312
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.204
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.399
full rank 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 10.154 taildiff: 0.51661742
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.520 -0.475
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.145 0.221
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.102 0.032
Jordan_PPNB -0.226 1.608
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.080 0.028
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.674 1.886
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.357 1.491
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.776 0.505
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.309 -0.603
Anatolia_N 0.145 1.543
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.170 0.137
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.692 -0.584
A:
scale 991.102 3066.804
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.674 1.243
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.243 0.674
best coefficients: 0.873 0.127
ssres:
0.000479023 0.000581661 0.000056186 0.000515624 0.000479649 0.001012712 0.000723984 0.000529943 0.000338111 0.000651928 0.000560565 0.000512255
0.828304055 1.005779384 0.097153245 0.891591578 0.829385221 1.751132727 1.251877553 0.916352117 0.584644749 1.127281671 0.969301143 0.885767176
Jackknife mean: 0.864886518 0.135113482
std. errors: 0.100 0.100
error covariance (* 1000000)
10007 -10007
-10007 10007
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 10.154 0.516617 0.873 0.127
01 1 12 12.339 0.418882 1.000 -0.000
10 1 12 41.981 3.35445e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.516617 - -
best pat: 01 0.418882 chi(nested): 2.185 p-value for nested model: 0.139368
Your right pops are too old and basic for such a recent run(migration era samples).
There’s absolutely no way Hungarians don’t have any more Southern ancestry than the Belarussian-like early Slavs and the Scandinavian-like early Germanics, Hungarians score significantly more Barcin than both these populations. There’s some East Eurasian there too albeit noise level.
knez01
08-17-2020, 01:50 PM
Target: Knez_scaled
Distance: 2.2982% / 0.02298201
33.2 Slavic
31.8 Greco-Roman
23.0 Baltic
12.0 Balkan
Target: Knez_scaled
Distance: 2.4368% / 0.02436807 | ADC: 0.25x
66.4 Slavic
23.0 Greco-Roman
10.6 Balkan
vbnetkhio
08-17-2020, 01:51 PM
I've been playing with this Hungarian academic average with qpAdm. Apparently they don't need anything besides Germanic and Slavic, the Balkan stuff is just Global25 overfitting the data. This is one of the models that i ran (obs: qpAdm does not distinguish North Europeans, so Germany_EMedieval is a stand in for both Slavic and Germanic. The exact proportions of both should be analysed using G25):
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval 0.873 +- 0.100
Lech_MBA 0.127 +- 0.100
chisq 10.154
tail prob 0 516617
So Lech_MBA isn't required (and neither are Hungary_Scythian and Croatia_EIA) since the std.error is basically equal to the admixture coefficient, so the nested model with only Germany_EMedieval (p-value: 0.14) is closer to optimal.
Full output:
left pops:
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval.SG
Germany_Lech_MBA
right pops:
Czech_Vestonice16
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
Jordan_PPNB
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Cameroon_SMA.DG
Anatolia_N
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
Russia_HG_Karelia
0 Hungarian 20
1 Germany_EMedieval.SG 35
2 Germany_Lech_MBA 7
3 Czech_Vestonice16 1
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
6 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 1
7 Jordan_PPNB 4
8 Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 4
9 Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1
10 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 6
11 Iran_GanjDareh_N 8
12 Cameroon_SMA.DG 1
13 Anatolia_N 22
14 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 3
15 Russia_HG_Karelia 2
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 593124 indivs: 117
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
dof (jackknife): 602.170
numsnps used: 46474
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 10.154 tail: 0.51661742 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -10.154 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.491
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.268
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.060
Jordan_PPNB -0.175
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.095
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.757
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.364
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.759
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.266
Anatolia_N 0.177
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.180
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.621
A:
scale 941.312
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.204
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.399
full rank 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 10.154 taildiff: 0.51661742
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.520 -0.475
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.145 0.221
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.102 0.032
Jordan_PPNB -0.226 1.608
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.080 0.028
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.674 1.886
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.357 1.491
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.776 0.505
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.309 -0.603
Anatolia_N 0.145 1.543
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.170 0.137
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.692 -0.584
A:
scale 991.102 3066.804
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.674 1.243
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.243 0.674
best coefficients: 0.873 0.127
ssres:
0.000479023 0.000581661 0.000056186 0.000515624 0.000479649 0.001012712 0.000723984 0.000529943 0.000338111 0.000651928 0.000560565 0.000512255
0.828304055 1.005779384 0.097153245 0.891591578 0.829385221 1.751132727 1.251877553 0.916352117 0.584644749 1.127281671 0.969301143 0.885767176
Jackknife mean: 0.864886518 0.135113482
std. errors: 0.100 0.100
error covariance (* 1000000)
10007 -10007
-10007 10007
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 10.154 0.516617 0.873 0.127
01 1 12 12.339 0.418882 1.000 -0.000
10 1 12 41.981 3.35445e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.516617 - -
best pat: 01 0.418882 chi(nested): 2.185 p-value for nested model: 0.139368
Hungarians are a Nordo-Slavic mix like northeast Germans? this doesn't make sense.
could you try it with these outgroups?
set 1: Anatolia_N (25), CHG (2), EHG (4), ElMiron (1), Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N (3),
Jordan_PPNB (1), MA1 (1), Mbuti (10), Natufian (6), Ust_Ishim (1), Vestonice16 (1), WHG (6),
Russia_Yamnaya_Samara (9)
set 2: Anatolia_N (25), CHG (2), EHG (4), ElMiron (1), GoyetQ116-1 (1), Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N (3),
Jordan_PPNB (1), Kostenki14 (1), MA1 (1), Morocco_Iberomaurusian (6), Mota (1), Natufian (6),
Ust_Ishim (1), Vestonice16 (1), Italy_Villabruna (1), WHG (6), Russia_Yamnaya_Samara (9).
that's what was used in the Rome study
Chris596
08-17-2020, 01:54 PM
Target: Chris_scaled
Distance: 1.9340% / 0.01933960 | ADC: 0.25x
45.8 Slavic
41.0 Balkan
9.2 Celtic
4.0 Greco-Roman
Target: ChrisFather
Distance: 4.3609% / 0.04360857 | ADC: 0.25x
50.6 Balkan
33.6 Slavic
15.8 Greco-Roman
Token
08-17-2020, 01:59 PM
Your right pops are too old and basic for such a recent run(migration era samples).
There’s absolutely no way Hungarians don’t have any more Southern ancestry than the Belarussian-like early Slavs and the Scandinavian-like early Germanics, Hungarians score significantly more Barcin than both these populations. There’s some East Eurasian there too albeit noise level.
No, my right pops are very solid for my purpose, have you bothered reading Patterson's notes or looking at the supp. files of genetic papers? Actually i am being quite restrictive here.
Your observations are all based on Global25 so they are meaningless for formal stats, run your qpAdm model and prove me wrong (spoiler: they will show the same). There is no East Eurasian in this Hungarian sample, albeit i am pretty sure Hungarians from the Great Plain will show some.
Token
08-17-2020, 02:04 PM
Hungarians are a Nordo-Slavic mix like northeast Germans? this doesn't make sense.
could you try it with these outgroups?
set 1: Anatolia_N (25), CHG (2), EHG (4), ElMiron (1), Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N (3),
Jordan_PPNB (1), MA1 (1), Mbuti (10), Natufian (6), Ust_Ishim (1), Vestonice16 (1), WHG (6),
Russia_Yamnaya_Samara (9)
set 2: Anatolia_N (25), CHG (2), EHG (4), ElMiron (1), GoyetQ116-1 (1), Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N (3),
Jordan_PPNB (1), Kostenki14 (1), MA1 (1), Morocco_Iberomaurusian (6), Mota (1), Natufian (6),
Ust_Ishim (1), Vestonice16 (1), Italy_Villabruna (1), WHG (6), Russia_Yamnaya_Samara (9).
that's what was used in the Rome study
I will when i get home, but i can tell you in advance that they will show the same thing ('ve tried similar setups).
No, my right pops are very solid for my purpose, have you bothered reading Patterson's notes or looking at the supp. files of genetic papers? Actually i am being quite restrictive here.
Your observations are all based on Global25 so they are meaningless for formal stats, run your qpAdm model and prove me wrong (spoiler: they will show the same). There is no East Eurasian in this Hungarian sample, albeit i am pretty sure Hungarians from the Great Plain will show some.
My observation is sollely based on what someone else who is very much an expert of qpAdm who I've talked to regarding these things. I personally don't use it.
qpAdm is easily manipulated and gives different results if one isn't careful with the right pops from what I've heard. You right pops seem indeed very restrictive for the run you're making. Probably needs more recent samples.
Like I said I don't use qpAdm but every study I've viewed which used qpAdm to modell modern populations clearly shows higher Barcin related admixture for Hungarians than either Scandinavians or Northern Slavs(such as Haak et al just on top of my mind).
I'm not willing to discuss this though, to me it's very much a no brainer that Hungarians and other central Europeans have non-Germanic and non-Slavic input which shifts them south, whether is Celtic, Paleo-Balkan or Greco-Roman.
Token
08-17-2020, 03:53 PM
...
Like I said I don't use qpAdm but every study I've viewed which ...
Sure you don't.
Freeroostah
08-17-2020, 04:16 PM
Target: VangosH_scaled
Distance: 2.0434% / 0.02043351
55.0 Greco-Roman
21.8 Balkan
12.2 Slavic
11.0 Baltic
Balto-Slavic is equally distributed
Target: VangosH_scaled
Distance: 2.0434% / 0.02043351
55.0 Greco-Roman
21.8 Balkan
12.2 Slavic
11.0 Baltic
Balto-Slavic is equally distributed
Calculator is designed to run at 0.25X, not 0 pen.
Ljubic
08-18-2020, 09:05 PM
Target: Greatuncle_scaled
Distance: 3.1536% / 0.03153571 | ADC: 0.25x
60.8 Slavic
34.0 Balkan
3.4 Greco-Roman
1.8 Baltic
Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 2.7417% / 0.02741686 | ADC: 0.25x
60.2 Slavic
21.8 Balkan
14.4 Greco-Roman
3.6 Baltic
Target: Ljubic_scaled
Distance: 1.9318% / 0.01931850 | ADC: 0.25x
67.2 Slavic
26.4 Balkan
6.4 Greco-Roman
Edit: Should have read the post above
Token
08-18-2020, 11:13 PM
I've been playing with this Hungarian academic average with qpAdm. Apparently they don't need anything besides Germanic and Slavic, the Balkan stuff is just Global25 overfitting the data. This is one of the models that i ran (obs: qpAdm does not distinguish North Europeans, so Germany_EMedieval is a stand in for both Slavic and Germanic. The exact proportions of both should be analysed using G25):
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval 0.873 +- 0.100
Lech_MBA 0.127 +- 0.100
chisq 10.154
tail prob 0 516617
So Lech_MBA isn't required (and neither are Hungary_Scythian and Croatia_EIA) since the std.error is basically equal to the admixture coefficient, so the nested model with only Germany_EMedieval (p-value: 0.14) is closer to optimal.
Full output:
left pops:
Hungarian
Germany_EMedieval.SG
Germany_Lech_MBA
right pops:
Czech_Vestonice16
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
Jordan_PPNB
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Cameroon_SMA.DG
Anatolia_N
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
Russia_HG_Karelia
0 Hungarian 20
1 Germany_EMedieval.SG 35
2 Germany_Lech_MBA 7
3 Czech_Vestonice16 1
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
6 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 1
7 Jordan_PPNB 4
8 Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 4
9 Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1
10 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 6
11 Iran_GanjDareh_N 8
12 Cameroon_SMA.DG 1
13 Anatolia_N 22
14 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 3
15 Russia_HG_Karelia 2
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 593124 indivs: 117
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
dof (jackknife): 602.170
numsnps used: 46474
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 10.154 tail: 0.51661742 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -10.154 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.491
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.268
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.060
Jordan_PPNB -0.175
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.095
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.757
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.364
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.759
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.266
Anatolia_N 0.177
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.180
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.621
A:
scale 941.312
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.204
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.399
full rank 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 10.154 taildiff: 0.51661742
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.520 -0.475
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.145 0.221
Italy_North_Villabruna_HG 0.102 0.032
Jordan_PPNB -0.226 1.608
Romania_Mesolithic_IronGates 1.080 0.028
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.674 1.886
Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.357 1.491
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.776 0.505
Cameroon_SMA.DG 1.309 -0.603
Anatolia_N 0.145 1.543
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.170 0.137
Russia_HG_Karelia 1.692 -0.584
A:
scale 991.102 3066.804
Germany_EMedieval.SG 0.674 1.243
Germany_Lech_MBA -1.243 0.674
best coefficients: 0.873 0.127
ssres:
0.000479023 0.000581661 0.000056186 0.000515624 0.000479649 0.001012712 0.000723984 0.000529943 0.000338111 0.000651928 0.000560565 0.000512255
0.828304055 1.005779384 0.097153245 0.891591578 0.829385221 1.751132727 1.251877553 0.916352117 0.584644749 1.127281671 0.969301143 0.885767176
Jackknife mean: 0.864886518 0.135113482
std. errors: 0.100 0.100
error covariance (* 1000000)
10007 -10007
-10007 10007
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 10.154 0.516617 0.873 0.127
01 1 12 12.339 0.418882 1.000 -0.000
10 1 12 41.981 3.35445e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.516617 - -
best pat: 01 0.418882 chi(nested): 2.185 p-value for nested model: 0.139368
Update: after rotating outgroups many times i was able to flesh out some Balkan admixture in present-day Hungarians. I obtained 0.77 North European + 0.23 Lech_MBA, std error 0.1. That is almost identical to the results obtained with G25, which certainly strenghtens the hypothesis, even though you could call the analysis 'biased'.
oszkar07
12-05-2020, 07:32 AM
Target: Oszkar Hungarian/British
Distance: 1.9092% / 0.01909200 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.8 Germanic
27.2 Slavic
17.8 Balkan
12.2 Celtic
MandM
12-05-2020, 07:45 AM
Almost identical, so close hehe
Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.1471% / 0.01147061 | ADC: 0.25x
51.0 Slavic
37.6 Balkan
11.4 Greco-Roman
Target: Milenko_scaled
Distance: 1.8421% / 0.01842136 | ADC: 0.25x RC
50.4 Slavic
38.6 Balkan
11.0 Greco-Roman
Scandal
12-17-2020, 11:51 AM
WEST SLAVS
Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x
86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic
Target: Slovakian
Distance: 1.9145% / 0.01914454 | ADC: 0.25x
84.2 Slavic
10.8 Balkan
4.2 Germanic
0.8 Baltic
Target: Sorb_Niederlausitz
Distance: 1.9298% / 0.01929826 | ADC: 0.25x
67.0 Slavic
18.2 Baltic
14.8 Balkan
Target: Czech
Distance: 1.1885% / 0.01188460 | ADC: 0.25x
56.6 Slavic
34.2 Germanic
5.2 Balkan
2.6 Greco-Roman
1.4 Celtic
I am surprised Sorbs score zero germanic. I guess the ones who did mix with the germans assimilated into the ethnic german population.
I am surprised Sorbs score zero germanic. I guess the ones who did mix with the germans assimilated into the ethnic german population.
I don't know how realisitic that reference is, G25 has some fishy references. Sorbs on K13 are bit different:
Distance: 1.1167% / 1.11670865
Target: Sorb_Lusatia | ADC: 0.25x RC
58.6 Czech
35.3 Belorussian
6.1 Swedish
Peterski
12-17-2020, 11:55 AM
Poles scored more Germanic than Slovaks and Slovenians in your model.
No any Celtic in Slovaks?
we, the Balts aren't Slavic!!!!
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png
I don't care for this thread aymore, it's pretty obsolete. G25 is poor for modern populations (bad references) and ancients got lot of updates since than. Lock.
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