Zagros Mountain Herder Model

[Halgurd]

Thank you to user Zoro for giving me suggestions for this model. Europeans will score some Zagros Mountain Herder, but this will most likely be CHG related ancestry. Use scaled coordinates.

The inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting those of the Central Zagros were somewhat isolated from other populations of the Fertile Crescent. (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep31326#Sec2)



Anatolian_Farmer:I0707,0.122929,0.184826,0.001886,-0.110144,0.054779,-0.048527,0.00141,-0.011769,0.036201,0.08474,0.011205,0.016335,-0.021704,0.002615,-0.038409,-0.014187,0.022817,0.00114,0.012947,-0.002751,-0.011979,0.009645,-0.008627,0.001566,-0.001676
Zagros_Mountain_Herders:I1954,0.053497,0.072103,-0.150848,0.004199,-0.126177,0.024542,0.022091,0.000462,-0.086514,-0.05376,-0.00341,-0.005395,0.008176,-0.000963,0.02823,0.043755,-0.01356,0.006334,0.011816,-0.04127,0.003494,-0.030048,-0.005669,-0.036391,0.025866
Siberian:DA249,0.033009,-0.427538,0.090509,-0.02584,-0.086785,-0.043786,0.002585,0.010384,0.014726,0.016766,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.002676,-0.003028,-0.0076,-0.003447,-0.001695,-0.00114,0.006034,0.02126,-0.018343,-0.000618,-0.015652,-0.00735,0.011137
Levantine:I1169,0.083091,0.171624,-0.036581,-0.134369,0.013541,-0.059683,-0.00799,-0.009692,0.053176,0.03262,0.013478,-0.013938,0.030773,0.001101,-0.016422,-0.009149,-0.018254,0.005574,0.005908,0.007253,0.005241,0.005 07,-0.006655,0.000482,-0.003353
Iberomaurisian:TAF011,-0.194638,0.085304,-0.021873,-0.088825,0.026774,-0.059961,-0.072148,0.019845,0.161165,0.002551,0.016564,-0.035818,0.080574,-0.051196,0.066367,-0.037523,0.012126,-0.071199,-0.14493,0.035767,-0.041427,-0.12662,0.068279,-0.011447,0.018441
Steppe:I0061,0.125205,0.034528,0.137272,0.204137,-0.015695,0.057451,-0.026791,-0.03046,-0.01084,-0.090571,0.025982,-0.009591,0.022745,-0.048581,0.019679,0.016309,-0.022426,0.0019,-0.006913,0.017258,-0.004617,0.011747,0.007025,-0.020485,-0.008502
East_Asian:NEO240,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
WHG:I1875,0.130897,0.120848,0.191577,0.194447,0.15 9107,0.048248,0.015746,0.040152,0.087332,0.007472,-0.016076,-0.015436,0.017839,-0.003303,0.047909,0.047069,0.007302,0.018497,-0.003268,0.057027,0.087471,0.00915,-0.048436,-0.143153,0.01449

[Kyp]

Target: FatherKyp_scaled
Distance: 3.1292% / 0.03129219
39.6 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
34.2 Anatolian_Farmer
12.6 Steppe
8.2 East_Asian
5.4 Levantine

Cool model:thumb001:

[Halgurd]

Target: FatherKyp_scaled
Distance: 3.1292% / 0.03129219
39.6 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
34.2 Anatolian_Farmer
12.6 Steppe
8.2 East_Asian
5.4 Levantine

Cool model:thumb001:

Compared to the Azeri G25 average

Target: Azeri
Distance: 3.1589% / 0.03158908
40.6 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
29.6 Anatolian_Farmer
14.8 Levantine
9.8 Steppe
5.2 East_Asian

[Kyp]

What's the Steppe sample. Iranians seem to get less than usually here.

Btw maybe you could add a pure CHG sample to lower distances.

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 2.5724% / 0.02572355
46.8 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
23.2 Anatolian_Farmer
16.0 Levantine
11.6 Steppe
2.4 East_Asian

Target: Iranian_Jew
Distance: 2.4112% / 0.02411245
37.6 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
35.6 Levantine
21.8 Anatolian_Farmer
5.0 Steppe

Target: Iranian_Lor
Distance: 2.2030% / 0.02202984
47.2 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.2 Anatolian_Farmer
18.6 Levantine
8.6 Steppe
1.4 East_Asian

Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 3.0037% / 0.03003713
56.2 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
25.4 Anatolian_Farmer
9.2 Steppe
8.6 Levantine
0.6 East_Asian

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 2.7357% / 0.02735743
47.0 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.4 Anatolian_Farmer
15.4 Levantine
13.0 Steppe
0.2 Siberian

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 3.0755% / 0.03075493
46.0 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
29.6 Anatolian_Farmer
14.8 Levantine
9.4 Steppe
0.2 East_Asian

Target: Talysh_Azerbaijan
Distance: 3.5497% / 0.03549748
46.6 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
32.6 Anatolian_Farmer
9.6 Levantine
9.4 Steppe
1.8 East_Asian

[Zoro]

What's the Steppe sample. Iranians seem to get less than usually here.

Btw maybe you could add a pure CHG sample to lower distances.

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 2.5724% / 0.02572355
46.8 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
23.2 Anatolian_Farmer
16.0 Levantine
11.6 Steppe
2.4 East_Asian

Target: Iranian_Jew
Distance: 2.4112% / 0.02411245
37.6 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
35.6 Levantine
21.8 Anatolian_Farmer
5.0 Steppe

Target: Iranian_Lor
Distance: 2.2030% / 0.02202984
47.2 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.2 Anatolian_Farmer
18.6 Levantine
8.6 Steppe
1.4 East_Asian

Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 3.0037% / 0.03003713
56.2 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
25.4 Anatolian_Farmer
9.2 Steppe
8.6 Levantine
0.6 East_Asian

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 2.7357% / 0.02735743
47.0 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.4 Anatolian_Farmer
15.4 Levantine
13.0 Steppe
0.2 Siberian

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 3.0755% / 0.03075493
46.0 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
29.6 Anatolian_Farmer
14.8 Levantine
9.4 Steppe
0.2 East_Asian

Target: Talysh_Azerbaijan
Distance: 3.5497% / 0.03549748
46.6 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
32.6 Anatolian_Farmer
9.6 Levantine
9.4 Steppe
1.8 East_Asian

He's using EHG as a proxy for Steppe that's why the values are lower than actual steppe because actual steppe ancestry from Iron-Age or even MLBA was not pure EHG. But the advantage of using EHG over Yamnaya is when you use Yamnaya even populations in N Africa that don't have steppe will show Yamnaya because Yamnaya was about 1/2 W Asian whereas if you use EHG those N African populations should show nothing.


TO GET YOUR ACTUAL STEPPE:

1- Figure out which Iron Age steppe populations had impact on Kurds or Azeris.
2- Figure out how much EHG they carried. Suppose that IA population that impacted Kurds or Azeris had 30% EHG. In that case ACTUAL STEPPE for Azeri Avg would be 9.8*3.3= 32.34%

[Zoro]

Thank you to user Zoro for giving me suggestions for this model. Europeans will score some Zagros Mountain Herder, but this will most likely be CHG related ancestry. Use scaled coordinates.

The inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting those of the Central Zagros were somewhat isolated from other populations of the Fertile Crescent. (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep31326#Sec2)




QpWave results using 17 Outgroups are consistent with the paper you cited. Here are the results. Notice how Sardinians have a very high genetic similarity to Anatolia-N but a very low one to Iran-N.

In other words qpWave is able to distinguish Anatolia-N from Iran-N very well. I've highlighted some of the samples where Iran-N is very low compared to Anatolia-N. You will not be able to see these types of differences with G25 or Admixture.

Also notice how some of the Haji-Firuz-Chl were more Anatolia-N shifted instead of Iran-N.



<tbody>
GENETIC SIMILARITY TO


SAMPLE
ANATOLIA-N
IRAN-N


Armenia_Chl1
16.75
12.12


Armenia_Chl2
18.91
12.90


Armenia_Chl3
19.21
11.37


Armenia_EBA_Kura1
13.91
13.89


Armenia_EBA_Kura2
16.09
12.28


Armenia_EBA_Kura3
14.96
11.88


Armenian1
13.37
10.98


Armenian2
16.04
8.76


Assyrian1
17.15
12.62


Assyrian2
18.18
12.42


Austria_EN_LBK1
20.71
2.45


Austria_EN_LBK3
20.68
3.22


Baloch_IR1
11.79
19.68


Baloch_IR2
13.42
18.73


Balochi1
8.09
18.52


Balochi2
8.38
16.69


Basque
15.66
6.56


Basque
14.78
6.04


BedouinB1
15.40
9.41


BedouinB2
18.23
9.38


Brahui1
9.49
19.72


Brahui2
9.58
17.57


Bulgaria_Chl1
20.68
2.88


Bulgaria_Chl2
20.54
2.81


Bulgarian1
14.65
7.99


Bulgarian2
16.25
9.37


Buryat1
1.16
-8.70


Buryat2
0.00
-10.45


Cretan1

15.77
9.94


Cretan2

16.96
7.99


English1
11.10
7.51


English2
12.25
5.99


Estonian1
10.37
7.99


Estonian2
10.05
7.82


Finnish1
9.06
7.08


Finnish2
11.26
8.23


French
18.36
8.13


French
14.61
7.73


Georgian
13.50
10.65


Georgian
12.41
11.25


Iran_Chl_HajjiFiruz1
16.23
10.32


Iran_Chl_HajjiFiruz2
13.09
12.90


Iran_Chl_HajjiFiruz3
14.17
12.18


Iran_Chl_SehGabi1
10.56
14.16


Iran_Chl_SehGabi2
12.77
15.94


Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz
16.01
15.61


Iran_IA_Hasanlu
14.95
14.44


Iranian
13.26
16.01


Iranian
11.69
15.76


Iranian_NW1
14.82
15.92


Iranian_NW2
14.42
15.62


Israel_Chl1
19.66
6.85


Israel_Chl3
20.29
6.09


Jew_Iraqi
15.24
9.67


Jew_Iraqi
15.14
10.07


Jordanian
15.13
10.01


Jordanian
14.37
9.64


Kalash
7.09
14.46


Kalash
6.72
16.29


Kazakh1
6.28
1.68


Kazakh2
6.60
0.79


Kazakh3
6.50
1.78


Kazakhstan_Botai
1.08
2.00


Kazakhstan_EBA_Yamna
9.86
11.78


Kurd_Kurm1
14.97
15.36


Kurd_Kurm2
14.95
15.35


Kurd_Sorani
14.10
15.58


Kurds_Feyli1
14.26
15.84


Kurds_Feyli2
13.98
16.54


Kurds_Feyli3
13.92
15.78


Kyrgyzstan_TianShanSaka
12.94
14.41


Kyrgyzstan_TianShanSaka
12.23
12.34


Mozabite1
5.08
5.27


Mozabite2
2.59
3.24


Pashtun_Afg1
9.36
15.77


Pashtun_Afg2
12.39
17.80


Pathan1
7.37
15.04


Pathan2
5.47
15.41


Russia_EBA_Yamna_Samara
9.15
7.46


Russia_HG_Sosnoviy
0.78
0.93


Russia_Late_Sarmatian
13.13
13.83


Russia_Late_Sarmatian
12.33
12.89


Russia_Sintashta_MLBA
15.50
8.51


Russia_Sintashta_MLBA
13.98
13.93


Sardinian1
18.69
2.31


Sardinian2
17.87
3.61


Sardinian3
16.90
3.71


Sindhi1
8.14
14.78

</tbody>
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[Halgurd]

These are my results. I feel as if I have another component missing. As Kyp suggested, a pure CHG sample does lower the distance.

Target: Halgurd_scaled
Distance: 4.0382% / 0.04038206
42.4 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.0 Anatolian_Farmer
21.4 Levantine
10.6 Steppe
1.6 East_Asian

[Dr_Maul]

Target: DrMaul
Distance: 2.3437% / 0.02343733
44.2 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.2 Anatolian_Farmer
19.0 Levantine
9.4 Steppe
2.6 East_Asian
0.6 Iberomaurisian

[Aren]

What a strange model. Using a singleton Neolithic Iranian sample and one Copper Age sample from the Levant alongside with EHG which is now called Steppe? What?
Steppe is strictly used for Yamnaya-like populations from the EMBA.

[Zoro]

These are my results. I feel as if I have another component missing. As Kyp suggested, a pure CHG sample does lower the distance.

Target: Halgurd_scaled
Distance: 4.0382% / 0.04038206
42.4 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.0 Anatolian_Farmer
21.4 Levantine
10.6 Steppe
1.6 East_Asian

You can add CHG. I noticed you used only 1 sample from each population. It's probably better to use all the higher quality samples from each pop I mentioned before. You can average them. For ex if you use 3 Iran-N samples. You can avg each of their coordinates and create Iran-N-avg. Same with the Siberian and E Asian. Keep in mind though the G25 results have limited accuracy.

[Token]

What a strange model. Using a singleton Neolithic Iranian sample and one Copper Age sample from the Levant alongside with EHG which is now called Steppe? What?
Steppe is strictly used for Yamnaya-like populations from the EMBA.

Didn't understand these singletons either.

[Halgurd]

What a strange model. Using a singleton Neolithic Iranian sample and one Copper Age sample from the Levant alongside with EHG which is now called Steppe? What?
Steppe is strictly used for Yamnaya-like populations from the EMBA.

I don't see a problem with using single samples because, as long as the populations are homogenous, in this case they are, then it shouldn't be that much of a problem. I used the highest quality samples that Zoro suggested for each of these components as a start. You are welcome to create an average if you feel that it will be more accurate, but I do not think the results will differ that much.

Maybe you have forgotten Yamnaya is already partially EHG derived. The purpose of this model was to create mostly isolated separate components. Yamnaya were both EHG and CHG derived, whilst the Zagros model is also partially CHG related, which would give inaccurate results for certain people. This is why some Europeans will score the Zagros component (as I already mentioned), but this would certainly be CHG derived.

A model such as this should not be taken at face value, it should be interpreted.

[SUPREEEEEME]

Target: SUPREEEEEME_scaled
Distance: 4.2016% / 0.04201591
43.4 Anatolian_Farmer
18.0 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
17.4 Steppe
16.6 Levantine
3.0 Iberomaurisian
1.6 WHG

[Halgurd]

You can add CHG. I noticed you used only 1 sample from each population. It's probably better to use all the higher quality samples from each pop I mentioned before. You can average them. For ex if you use 3 Iran-N samples. You can avg each of their coordinates and create Iran-N-avg. Same with the Siberian and E Asian. Keep in mind though the G25 results have limited accuracy.

If I have time I will create an average, but as I mentioned to Aren the results shouldn't differ that much. If the results do differ, then it would be proof that such models are really a waste of time.

[Zoro]

What a strange model. Using a singleton Neolithic Iranian sample and one Copper Age sample from the Levant alongside with EHG which is now called Steppe? What?
Steppe is strictly used for Yamnaya-like populations from the EMBA.

He's just getting started. He can average the higher quality samples from each population. EHG is best labeled as EHG. Since G25 and Admixture based calculators don't accomodate outgroups many times results are misleading because of common ancient shared ancestry. For ex N Africans will show Steppe or Iran-Chl which in fact is nothing more than N Africans sharing common distant ancestry with Yamnaya's West Asian side or Iran-Chl's Anatolian farmer side.

Users don't know this so they assume they have real Iran-Chl or Yamnaya ancestry. To overcome these problems EHG can be used. If they don't score any EHG then they know that their Yamnaya score was nothing more that sharing with Yamnaya distant W Asian ancestors.

If a European for ex scores 20% EHG and they know that Corded Ware is their steppe ancestor and suppose Corded Ware is 40% EHG then they can figure out they have 50% Corded Ware ancestry

[Halgurd]

Since G25 and Admixture based calculators don't accomodate outgroups many times results are misleading because of common ancient shared ancestry.

Yes, this is a problem with admixture calculators that more people need to take into account when interpreting results. As you said, such models are quite limited.

[Halgurd]

Target: DrMaul
Distance: 2.3437% / 0.02343733
44.2 Zagros_Mountain_Herders
24.2 Anatolian_Farmer
19.0 Levantine
9.4 Steppe
2.6 East_Asian
0.6 Iberomaurisian

Quite similar to mine, which shows that it works. I have also noticed that Persians, generally, tend to score more East Asian related components than Kurds (although, only slightly) on admix calculators.

[Zoro]

Quite similar to mine, which shows that it works. I have also noticed that Persians, generally, tend to score more East Asian related components than Kurds (although, only slightly) on admix calculators.

Keep in mind that since there's no S Eurasian component here, some S Eurasian will show up as E Asian. Generally speaking actual Siberian and E Asian is similar between Kurds and Persians. Some Kurds score more and some Persians score more. If i correctly remember that on Gedmatch you score more than and also less than some Persians ?

Here are some qpWave results using Devils-Gate-EN. The lower chi sq the higher the similarity with Devils Gate. Notice where Kurds fall in the table. Again keep in mind that S Asians will be higher because of shared SE Asian and AASI.



<colgroup width="228"></colgroup> <colgroup width="112"></colgroup> <colgroup width="117"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpWave – Test, Devils-Gate-EN – Cladliness Check – Rank 0


SAMPLE
CHI SQ
SNPs USED


Han
15.02
289812


Japanese
15.11
292343


Dai
22.35
250638


Buryat
69.60
431555


India_Irula_1000G
90.31
215488


Eskimo_Sireniki
133.24
338159


Russia_UstBelaya_Angara
163.64
292233


Bengali
195.65
294872


Karitiana
198.78
326207


Kazakh
289.72
307324


Mansi
451.77
306866


Chukchi
459.78
401324


Pashtun_Afg
519.90
243453


Burusho
524.94
289482


Kazakhstan_Sarmatian
534.52
275398


Sindhi
570.20
288892


Punjabi
586.53
98449


Pathan
609.30
285482


Kazakhstan_Botai
643.11
376027


Balochi
670.07
287254


Bashkir
697.00
294980


Kalash
706.99
295271


Kurds_Feyli
712.55
241679


Kurd_Kurm1
733.95
241851


Iran_IA_Hasanlu
735.96
347118


Russia_HG_Sosnoviy
773.50
233370


Kurd_Kurm2
788.09
241774


Kurd_Sorani
790.43
241640


Russia_Karasuk
834.86
274596


Iranian_NW
862.67
178398


Saami
887.64
298270


Assyrians
923.79
179379


Iranian
974.47
281719


Russia_NOssetian
1,026.25
285167


Adygei
1,086.05
284723


Russia_HG_Karelia
1,088.50
349474


Armenian
1,106.68
281633


Jew_Iraqi
1,146.90
282079


Cretan
1,147.05
282301


Iran_C_SehGabi
1,194.23
298823


Georgian
1,198.29
282082


Bougainville
1,223.23
334216


Jordanian
1,243.14
230668


Armenia_EBA_Kura
1,278.28
291654


Estonian
1,317.55
283822


English
1,356.46
282047


Israel_C
1,421.16
275235


Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
1,473.37
206000


Somali
1,496.42
287628


Sardinian
1,538.53
235685


Finnish
1,707.18
100423


Iberian_1000G
1,853.22
92980


Anatolia_N
1,869.12
175660


Esan
3,213.19
277245

</tbody>
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[Halgurd]

Keep in mind that since there's no S Eurasian component here, some S Eurasian will show up as E Asian. Generally speaking actual Siberian and E Asian is similar between Kurds and Persians. Some Kurds score more and some Persians score more. If i correctly remember that on Gedmatch you score more than and also less than some Persians ?

Here are some qpWave results using Devils-Gate-EN. The lower chi sq the higher the similarity with Devils Gate. Notice where Kurds fall in the table. Again keep in mind that S Asians will be higher because of shared SE Asian and AASI.

Yes, on gedmatch I tend to score quite a lot of E Eurasian components, and for some reason Amerindian (probably shared ancestry with E Eurasians), compared to both Kurds and Persians. Generally, I have noticed that Maul scores slightly more than me.

Thanks for the table.

[Zoro]

Yes, on gedmatch I tend to score quite a lot of E Eurasian components, and for some reason Amerindian (probably shared ancestry with E Eurasians), compared to both Kurds and Persians. Generally, I have noticed that Maul scores slightly more than me.

Thanks for the table.


So based on your Gedmatch and the table above we can say G25 is off some. There's a new K5 calculator on Geneplaza.com that breaks down S Eurasian and E Eurasian. Even though it's not based on formal stats It maybe worth a try.

[Aren]

Yes, on gedmatch I tend to score quite a lot of E Eurasian components, and for some reason Amerindian (probably shared ancestry with E Eurasians), compared to both Kurds and Persians. Generally, I have noticed that Maul scores slightly more than me.

Thanks for the table.

Well let's see and wait for other Kurds from your area to get tested. Turkmens are or were present in rather great numbers in Erbil, Kirkuk and just across the border on the Urmi plain.
I suspect that Kurds around Urmi have intermixed a lot with the neighbouring Azeris and since your grandmother is from there it might come from her.

Regarding a better model, I will create one for West Asians.