Early Iranic speakers vs modern Iranic speakers

[Halgurd]

In order of Yamnaya.

Early:

https://i.ibb.co/HNjLY1b/A985-EE8-A-F85-A-40-CF-A28-D-6-F0-AF4-A5-E96-A.jpg

Non Sintashta/Andronovo/BMAC:

https://i.ibb.co/xCBpzc3/B2-EDE529-EB93-4-E2-A-A784-E90211-E5-F3-AB.jpg

Modern:

https://i.ibb.co/vdspYYv/C530-BA36-0558-4-AEC-87-CF-833-AB3-E65498.jpg

[Halgurd]

Correction: Forgot to add WHG for Sintashta/Andronovo

https://i.ibb.co/f2qK41C/AE41-AB21-1-C19-4-B6-F-8472-52570997-AFB1.jpg

[Aren]

Hajji Firuz BA is dated to 2300 BC there were no Iranians at that time not even proto Indo-Iranians. The only reliable Iranian speaker in Davids spreadsheet is probably Turkmenistan_IA

[Ion Basescul]

All ancients look pulled straight out of ass. There is no evidence that those are Iranic speakers.

[Kyp]

Include TKM_IA which is a good middlepoint

Also I dont think those old Neolithic shifted samples were Iranic speaking

[Halgurd]

All ancients look pulled straight out of ass. There is no evidence that those are Iranic speakers.

Which ones? BMAC, Sintashta and Andronovo are all associated with Indo Iranians lol.

Hajji Firuz and Hasanlu are almost certainly early West-Iranic speakers, they resemble modern Iranians a lot and are dated to the Iron Age, when West Iranic speakers are first attested.

Alalakh outlier was discussed on anthrogenica and many concluded it is a possible Mitanni sample.

[Leto]

Sintashta and Krasnoyarsk were proto-Indo-Iranians. You can also check Kazakh Mys, those are good quality samples.

[Leto]

All ancients look pulled straight out of ass. There is no evidence that those are Iranic speakers.
The proto-Iranics were white, that's fucking obvious at this point.

[Halgurd]

Also I dont think BMAC etc were Iranic speakers

What makes you say that?

BMAC consisted of farming communities, and most likely came under sway of the Andronovo/Sintashta. I think they were the first to be Iranified, hence why I included them. A lot of Iranic speakers from west to east have BMAC like ancestry.

[Aren]

Which ones? BMAC, Sintashta and Andronovo are all associated with Indo Iranians lol.

Hajji Firuz and Hasanlu are almost certainly early West-Iranic speakers, they resemble modern Iranians a lot and are dated to the Iron Age, when West Iranic speakers are first attested.

Alalakh outlier was discussed on anthrogenica and many concluded it is a possible Mitanni sample.
But you realize Sintashta and BMAC can’t both be Iranian right? They are two totally different cultures.

[Leto]

I wonder if Ossetians are actually less Steppe than Fars. Looks doubtful to me. Look at where Ossetia is and where Fars.

[Halgurd]

The proto-Iranics were white, that's fucking obvious at this point.

Their descendants for sure don’t resemble them.

[Kyp]

What makes you say that?

BMAC consisted of farming communities, and most likely came under sway of the Andronovo/Sintashta. I think they were the first to be Iranified, hence why I included them. A lot of Iranic speakers from west to east have BMAC like ancestry.

BMAC is assiociated with Neolithic Iranians not with Indo-Iranians

[Halgurd]

But you realize Sintashta and BMAC can’t both be Iranian right? They are two totally different cultures.

See post #9

[Halgurd]

BMAC is assiociated with Neolithic Iranians not with Indo-Iranians

BMAC were descended from Neolithic Iranian farmers who migrated to Central Asia. They in turn were Iranified (linguistically) by Sintashta/Andronovo who then migrated to Iran. A lot of Neolithic Iranian ancestry in modern Iranics is actually derived from BMAC.

[Kyp]

BMAC were descended from Neolithic Iranian farmers who migrated to Central Asia. They in turn were Iranified (linguistically) by Sintashta/Andronovo who then migrated to Iran. A lot of Neolithic Iranian ancestry in modern Iranics is actually derived from BMAC.

Yes but you included them with the Indo-Iranians. It's a bit confusing. If you run TKM_IA everything will make sense, since it's a clear cut mix of Steppe and BMAC. (YDNA R1a-z93)

[Leto]

What about the South Asian influence? Wasn't the BMAC partially South Asian? Especially Afghanistan today is quite South Asian in some parts.

[xripkan]

Modern Tajiks are a mix of ancient Iranic Scytho-Sarmatian tribes + extra Neolithic Iranian people

Target: Tajik_Rushan
Distance: 1.9572% / 0.01957178
57.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
42.6 Balochi


Target: Tajik_Shugnan
Distance: 1.9717% / 0.01971697
53.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
46.8 Balochi

Sarmatians had already somewhat elevated Iran Neolithic.

[Leto]

The Pamiri tribes make up less than 5% of Tajikistan's population. They are not like an average Tajikistani. Neither are the Yaghnobis. There are far more ethnic Uzbeks in TJK than Pamiris.

[Mingle]

No modern East Iranic-speakers besides Ossetians (who are essentially just language shifters)?

Here are some scaled ones:


Pashtun_Tarkalani,0.08156,0.024233,-0.085763,0.054543,-0.064436,0.03564,0.003201,0.001735,-0.01718,-0.015591,-0.006165,-0.000548,0.001251,-0.00915,0.012411,0.016176,0.002698,0.000952,0.0023 02,-0.009703,-0.003773,-0.005394,0.001547,-0.002007,0.004406


Pashtun_Afghanistan_North,0.084988,0.0277577,-0.0666247,0.039729,-0.0557023,0.0277033,0.0057967,0.001846,-0.0259063,-0.0183453,-0.0059543,0,0.0018833,-0.0061473,0.012667,0.011182,-0.005172,0.0016047,0.0020533,-0.0097547,-0.0005407,-0.0070483,-0.0038207,-0.0015263,0.0069453




Tajik_Shugnan,0.09599,0.038082,-0.030672,0.044951,-0.048214,0.024589,0.001293,-0.003538,-0.027508,-0.028733,-0.004899,-0.001024,0.000917,-0.015918,0.01321,0.015248,-0.003651,0.001879,0.003017,-0.009734,-0.004492,-0.002803,0.001767,0.001627,0.004471


Tajik_Yagnobi,0.101758,0.067431,-0.029038,0.022093,-0.042839,0.018686,0.005452,-0.001292,-0.037428,-0.028684,-0.006788,-0.000689,5.9e-05,-0.012359,0.013979,0.014214,-0.006285,0.000456,-0.00098,-0.013056,-0.007836,-0.006059,0.000641,0.001783,0.005341

[Halgurd]

Yes but you included them with the Indo-Iranians. It's a bit confusing. If you run TKM_IA everything will make sense, since it's a clear cut mix of Steppe and BMAC. (YDNA R1a-z93)

This is TKM_IA, I forgot to add it to my models.

Target: TKM_IA
Distance: 2.6648% / 0.02664828
56.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
23.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.4 TUR_Barcin_N
8.2 Levant_ISR_C
1.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Now the reason why I included BMAC is:

Target: TKM_IA
Distance: 2.4584% / 0.02458438
54.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
45.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA

[Mingle]

I wonder if Ossetians are actually less Steppe than Fars. Looks doubtful to me. Look at where Ossetia is and where Fars.

Ossetians probably have ancient Steppe-related ancestry but less PIE-derived Steppe ancestry than Iranians since Armenians have less Steppe than them and there's a trend of westerners having less Steppe than easterners in Asia (except for Turkish people who have more Steppe than Caucasians).

[Leto]

Ossetians probably have ancient Steppe-related ancestry but less PIE-derived Steppe ancestry than Iranians since Armenians have less Steppe than them and there's a trend of westerners having less Steppe than easterners in Asia (except for Turkish people who have more Steppe than Caucasians).
Yeah, I doubt inland Dagestan is literally 40% Yamnaya as G25 would suggest. They're simply very close to the Caspian steppe, just south of it.

[Ion Basescul]

The proto-Iranics were white, that's fucking obvious at this point.

That's completely irrelevant.
I will remind all idiots in this thread that the earliest Iranic language is from 500BC, which is at the end of Iron Age. The youngest ancient in that list is from 800BC, the second youngest from 1100BC and the rest are significantly older.
We have no idea what language they spoke, but it was most likely a pre-Iranic Indo-European language.

[Halgurd]

That's completely irrelevant.
I will remind all idiots in this thread that the earliest Iranic language is from 500BC, which is at the end of Iron Age. The youngest ancient in that list is from 800BC, the second youngest from 1100BC and the rest are significantly older.
We have no idea what language they spoke, but it was most likely a pre-Iranic Indo-European language.

Ion Basescul from The Apricity is more knowledgeable than historians, linguists, geneticists and archaeologists aka "idiots"

[Ion Basescul]

Ion Basescul from The Apricity is more knowledgeable than historians, linguists, geneticists and archaeologists aka "idiots"

I'd be more respectful to my ancestor.

[Fedora]

The proto-Iranics were white, that's fucking obvious at this point.

Based on what? Don'T ancient samples from that region still have high Gedrosia and South Asia to look like regular europeans?

[Leto]

Based on what? Don'T ancient samples from that region still have high Gedrosia and South Asia to look like regular europeans?
It's higher than in modern Europeans and they weren't exactly like any modern population but still much closer to Northern Europeans than to Persians, Kurds, etc. Besides they are said to have had the genes for light hair and eyes.

[Leto]

The Sintashta were closely related to the Corded Ware, basically an Eastern offshoot of the CWC.