Biggest genetic misconceptions that persist?

[J. Ketch]

Generally people's knowledge of population genetics has gotten better than it was in the past, but what are some of the most prevalent myths, falsehoods or misconceptions that persist, or at least persist in influencing people's thinking?

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

That E-V13 is somehow connected to Natufians, and through them to Anatolian neolithic farmers, when Natufians were almost exclusively E-Z827 with no E-M78 found among them.

[David Johnson]

That Russians and other eastern Slavs are the epitome of steppeness.

[Trouble]

That Russians and other eastern Slavs are the epitome of steppeness.

Yea..Baltics and Finns too. I understand why people think this though-the earliest IE cultures were in Ukraine and those populations have higher EHG ancestry today, but that's not the same as steppe. Their steppe is essentially equivalent maybe even slightly less than Scandos and Celtics.

[XenophobicPrussian]

1. Neolithic farmers brought light skin to Europe, still see so many people claim this when you now have dozens of N and eastern Euro HGs with SLC45 and SLC24 in even higher abundance
2. South and Southeast Euros are the typical WHG/EEF/steppe mix with no extra post-neolithic MENA admixture
3. ANE is somehow its own sort of race(or is wholy European) and has nothing to do with East Asians
4. Papuans, Negritos, and Abos are long distance travelled Sub-Saharan Africans(you won't find stuff like this on these types of forums but literally every black person thinks this)
5. Solutrean non-sense(again, not on these types of forums, but among WNs that shit is everywhere)
6. Cro-Magnon man(that is, the actual Cro-Magnon man himself from France dated to 35k BC or whatever it is, and similar early Paleolithic samples like Kostenki14 from that earlier 25k-40k BC period) is the epitome of Europeanness, when in reality these early samples had only recently split off from the rest of humanity and still showed heavy genetic affinity to non-European populations, especially Papuans/etc, that keeps getting lower and lower the newer the sample is, and it isn't until around 18-20k BC where you start to see fully diverged "pure" Europeans with no outside affinity(what I'm saying is, the "Cro-Magnon" phenotype should be renamed to Villabruna man or Loschbour, etc.)
7. British Isles more EEF than Germans(although this one isn't that prevalent)
8. EEF, Yamnaya, etc. are some how "basal" races of great genetic significance or importance, rather than being already simple mixes of previous, well established and genetically diverged populations
9. Iberomaurusians have no SSA or proto-SSA admixture or affinity, and are somehow a "basal" race(this one just won't fucking die)
10. Most if not all Europeans are extremely homogenous post the Iron Age(i.e, Poles are "pure Slavs")
11. East Germans have little to no Slavic is probably popular among the German nationalists
12. France is pred. Celtic with little to no Germanic or Roman admixture
13. One phenotype can be solely linked with one genetic ethnicity or migration event(i.e, Alpinids arriving with a Bronze Age migration from Anatolia)
14. There is greater genetic diversity within Africa than outside it(technically not totally incorrect, but it's misleading and makes out East Africans to be some sort of special race when they're a simple mix of Middle-Easterners and SSA, the genetic diversity between Bantus, Pygmies and San is not greater than the diversity outside Africa)
15. A European or East Asian can be more genetically related to a random African than a fellow European or East Asian, aka race doesn't exist, completely bullshit propaganda based on extremely old studies that used literally dozens of SNPs instead of the hundreds of thousands+ we use today, it's the same thing they did with claiming that American neo-Nazi Craig Cobb was 14% SSA when they used the oldest genetic tests available that use as few SNPs as possible. Again, this kind of stuff won't be popular on these sorts of forums, but lots of normie liberals still spew out this outdated garbage.

14 and 15 probably should be 1 and 2 tbh, but they aren't as relevant for this forum. I probably missed a few but that's all I can think of right now.

[J. Ketch]

1. Neolithic farmers brought light skin to Europe, still see so many people claim this when you now have dozens of N and eastern Euro HGs with SLC45 and SLC24 in even higher abundance
2. South and Southeast Euros are the typical WHG/EEF/steppe mix with no extra post-neolithic MENA admixture
3. ANE is somehow its own sort of race(or is wholy European) and has nothing to do with East Asians
4. Papuans, Negritos, and Abos are long distance travelled Sub-Saharan Africans(you won't find stuff like this on these types of forums but literally every black person thinks this)
5. Solutrean non-sense(again, not on these types of forums, but among WNs that shit is everywhere)
6. Cro-Magnon man(that is, the actual Cro-Magnon man himself from France dated to 35k BC or whatever it is, and similar early Paleolithic samples like Kostenki14 from that earlier 25k-40k BC period) is the epitome of Europeanness, when in reality these early samples had only recently split off from the rest of humanity and still showed heavy genetic affinity to non-European populations, especially Papuans/etc, that keeps getting lower and lower the newer the sample is, and it isn't until around 18-20k BC where you start to see fully diverged "pure" Europeans with no outside affinity(what I'm saying is, the "Cro-Magnon" phenotype should be renamed to Villabruna man or Loschbour, etc.)
7. British Isles more EEF than Germans(although this one isn't that prevalent)
8. EEF, Yamnaya, etc. are some how "basal" races of great genetic significance or importance, rather than being already simple mixes of previous, well established populations
9. Iberomaurusians have no SSA or proto-SSA admixture or affinity, and are somehow a "basal" race(this one just won't fucking die)
10. Most if not all Europeans are extremely homogenous post the Iron Age(i.e, Poles are "pure Slavs")
11. East Germans have little to no Slavic is probably popular among the German nationalists
12. France is pred. Celtic with little to no Germanic or Roman admixture
13. One phenotype can be solely linked with one genetic ethnicity or migration event(i.e, Alpinids arriving with a Bronze Age migration from Anatolia)
14. There is greater genetic diversity within Africa than outside it(technically not totally incorrect, but it's misleading and makes out East Africans to be some sort of special race when they're a simple mix of Middle-Easterners and SSA, the genetic diversity between Bantus, Pygmies and San is not greater than the diversity outside Africa)
15. A European or East Asian can be more genetically related to a random African than a fellow European or East Asian, aka race doesn't exist, completely bullshit propaganda based on extremely old studies that used literally dozens of SNPs instead of the hundreds of thousands+ we use today, it's the same thing they did with claiming that American neo-Nazi Craig Cobb was 14% SSA when they used the oldest genetic tests available that use as few SNPs as possible. Again, this kind of stuff won't be popular on these sorts of forums, but lots of normie liberals still spew out this outdated garbage.

14 and 15 probably should be 1 and 2 tbh, but they aren't as relevant for this forum. I probably missed a few but that's all I can think of right now.
Great post.

[J. Ketch]

The idea that all Europeans are just a 3-way mix of WHG-EEF-PIE to varying degrees is still one that I see bandied around.

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

Iberomaurusians have no SSA or proto-SSA admixture or affinity, and are somehow a "basal" race(this one just won't fucking die)..

Is that not true? Aren’t Iberomaurusians Ancestral North African + Eurasian? What race were ANA?

[brennus dux gallorum]

1. Neolithic farmers brought light skin to Europe, still see so many people claim this when you now have dozens of N and eastern Euro HGs with SLC45 and SLC24 in even higher abundance
2. South and Southeast Euros are the typical WHG/EEF/steppe mix with no extra post-neolithic MENA admixture
3. ANE is somehow its own sort of race(or is wholy European) and has nothing to do with East Asians
4. Papuans, Negritos, and Abos are long distance travelled Sub-Saharan Africans(you won't find stuff like this on these types of forums but literally every black person thinks this)
5. Solutrean non-sense(again, not on these types of forums, but among WNs that shit is everywhere)
6. Cro-Magnon man(that is, the actual Cro-Magnon man himself from France dated to 35k BC or whatever it is, and similar early Paleolithic samples like Kostenki14 from that earlier 25k-40k BC period) is the epitome of Europeanness, when in reality these early samples had only recently split off from the rest of humanity and still showed heavy genetic affinity to non-European populations, especially Papuans/etc, that keeps getting lower and lower the newer the sample is, and it isn't until around 18-20k BC where you start to see fully diverged "pure" Europeans with no outside affinity(what I'm saying is, the "Cro-Magnon" phenotype should be renamed to Villabruna man or Loschbour, etc.)
7. British Isles more EEF than Germans(although this one isn't that prevalent)
8. EEF, Yamnaya, etc. are some how "basal" races of great genetic significance or importance, rather than being already simple mixes of previous, well established and genetically diverged populations
9. Iberomaurusians have no SSA or proto-SSA admixture or affinity, and are somehow a "basal" race(this one just won't fucking die)
10. Most if not all Europeans are extremely homogenous post the Iron Age(i.e, Poles are "pure Slavs")
11. East Germans have little to no Slavic is probably popular among the German nationalists
12. France is pred. Celtic with little to no Germanic or Roman admixture
13. One phenotype can be solely linked with one genetic ethnicity or migration event(i.e, Alpinids arriving with a Bronze Age migration from Anatolia)
14. There is greater genetic diversity within Africa than outside it(technically not totally incorrect, but it's misleading and makes out East Africans to be some sort of special race when they're a simple mix of Middle-Easterners and SSA, the genetic diversity between Bantus, Pygmies and San is not greater than the diversity outside Africa)
15. A European or East Asian can be more genetically related to a random African than a fellow European or East Asian, aka race doesn't exist, completely bullshit propaganda based on extremely old studies that used literally dozens of SNPs instead of the hundreds of thousands+ we use today, it's the same thing they did with claiming that American neo-Nazi Craig Cobb was 14% SSA when they used the oldest genetic tests available that use as few SNPs as possible. Again, this kind of stuff won't be popular on these sorts of forums, but lots of normie liberals still spew out this outdated garbage.

14 and 15 probably should be 1 and 2 tbh, but they aren't as relevant for this forum. I probably missed a few but that's all I can think of right now.

Are you sure that 7 is a myth? Cause i have seen it in every study so far

[David Johnson]

Are you sure that 7 is a myth? Cause i have seen it in every study so far

Germany is too huge and diverse to make that statement either way with great certainty. Dane shifted North Germans and Polak shifted East Germans may have less EEF than say England. But west, central, south are more EEF than even the most southern shifted Brits.

[Dr_Maul]

The biggest misconceptions are probably related to Iranians, Turks, Iraqis or any West Asians tbh...

[J. Ketch]

Some arguably less important misconceptions, but still there to varying degrees:

-that the largest genetic divide in England/Britain is East to West, rather than North-South
-that the largest genetic divide in Spain/Iberia is North-South, rather than East-West
-that the major divide in Germans is North-South, when East-West is just as large
-that average English are closer to Irish than to Dutch, and that the British Isles is one separate genetic unit
-that South Italians are just ancient Greek immigrants
-that Etruscans had an Anatolian origin
-that the Picts might be somehow different from other Insular Celts (this has been busted by recent studies)

[David Johnson]

Some arguably less important misconceptions, but still there to varying degrees:

-that the largest genetic divide in England/Britain is East to West, rather than North-South
-that the largest genetic divide in Spain/Iberia is North-South, rather than East-West
-that the major divide in Germans is North-South, when East-West is just as large
-that average English are closer to Irish than to Dutch, and that the British Isles is one separate genetic unit
-that South Italians are just ancient Greek immigrants
-that Etruscans had an Anatolian origin
-that the Picts might be somehow different from other Insular Celts (this has been busted by recent studies)
Was going to post this. The Y dna difference between the English and the Irish is actually huge. Irish have almost no I1/u106; less than parts of the Balkans. Which ties into another myth that they are heavily viking/germanic spawn.

[Fraisod]

That Russians and other eastern Slavs are the epitome of steppeness.

What group of people today would be "the epitome of steppeness"?

[David Johnson]

What group of people today would be "the epitome of steppeness"?

Norwegians and Irish have the most direct steppe. Russians/East slavs have extra added EHG/KHG/BHG which is mistaken as steppe.

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

Norwegians and Irish have the most direct steppe. Russians/East slavs have extra added EHG/KHG/BHG which is mistaken as steppe.

How did this happen exactly? When Indo-Europeans spread to lands of Slavic ancestors there were untouched EHG/KHG/BHG tribes just living there in large numbers who ended up contributing to Slav gene pool? How do we know how much Norwegians get from SHG and what is actual steppe? It’s really hard to separate those things out because it’s similar dna to begin with.

[Coastal Elite]

The genetic component of British Israelism and the idea that people from the British Isles came from "Scythians"

[J. Ketch]

Another obvious one that is still repeated to some extent (for ideological/agenda driven reasons) is that Steppe Indo-Europeans/Yamnaya 'came into Europe' c.3000 BC, or as FTDNA still call them: 'Metal Age Invaders'. The implication that they were Asiatic.

[Leto]

That Russians and other eastern Slavs are the epitome of steppeness.
The Poles are the most R1a nation, Belarus is not far behind. We R1as founded South Asia and the Indo-Aryan cultures, not the R1bs. Also the Steppe is actually located in Russia and Ukraine, not in Britain or Norway. The Cossacks were arguably the most Steppic Europeans in terms of culture and lifestyle.

[Leto]

10. Most if not all Europeans are extremely homogenous post the Iron Age(i.e, Poles are "pure Slavs")

Isn't that true by and large? I am confused by you, sometimes you sound like a race realist and sometimes like a liberal ("we're all mixed, there are no pure races"). What is European to you, who is and isn't part of the white race?

[Fraisod]

1. Neolithic farmers brought light skin to Europe, still see so many people claim this when you now have dozens of N and eastern Euro HGs with SLC45 and SLC24 in even higher abundance
2. South and Southeast Euros are the typical WHG/EEF/steppe mix with no extra post-neolithic MENA admixture
3. ANE is somehow its own sort of race(or is wholy European) and has nothing to do with East Asians
4. Papuans, Negritos, and Abos are long distance travelled Sub-Saharan Africans(you won't find stuff like this on these types of forums but literally every black person thinks this)
5. Solutrean non-sense(again, not on these types of forums, but among WNs that shit is everywhere)
6. Cro-Magnon man(that is, the actual Cro-Magnon man himself from France dated to 35k BC or whatever it is, and similar early Paleolithic samples like Kostenki14 from that earlier 25k-40k BC period) is the epitome of Europeanness, when in reality these early samples had only recently split off from the rest of humanity and still showed heavy genetic affinity to non-European populations, especially Papuans/etc, that keeps getting lower and lower the newer the sample is, and it isn't until around 18-20k BC where you start to see fully diverged "pure" Europeans with no outside affinity(what I'm saying is, the "Cro-Magnon" phenotype should be renamed to Villabruna man or Loschbour, etc.)
7. British Isles more EEF than Germans(although this one isn't that prevalent)
8. EEF, Yamnaya, etc. are some how "basal" races of great genetic significance or importance, rather than being already simple mixes of previous, well established and genetically diverged populations
9. Iberomaurusians have no SSA or proto-SSA admixture or affinity, and are somehow a "basal" race(this one just won't fucking die)
10. Most if not all Europeans are extremely homogenous post the Iron Age(i.e, Poles are "pure Slavs")
11. East Germans have little to no Slavic is probably popular among the German nationalists
12. France is pred. Celtic with little to no Germanic or Roman admixture
13. One phenotype can be solely linked with one genetic ethnicity or migration event(i.e, Alpinids arriving with a Bronze Age migration from Anatolia)
14. There is greater genetic diversity within Africa than outside it(technically not totally incorrect, but it's misleading and makes out East Africans to be some sort of special race when they're a simple mix of Middle-Easterners and SSA, the genetic diversity between Bantus, Pygmies and San is not greater than the diversity outside Africa)
15. A European or East Asian can be more genetically related to a random African than a fellow European or East Asian, aka race doesn't exist, completely bullshit propaganda based on extremely old studies that used literally dozens of SNPs instead of the hundreds of thousands+ we use today, it's the same thing they did with claiming that American neo-Nazi Craig Cobb was 14% SSA when they used the oldest genetic tests available that use as few SNPs as possible. Again, this kind of stuff won't be popular on these sorts of forums, but lots of normie liberals still spew out this outdated garbage.

14 and 15 probably should be 1 and 2 tbh, but they aren't as relevant for this forum. I probably missed a few but that's all I can think of right now.
14. I think it isn't so much that it's not relevant -- it does raise important evidence for considering what diversity is. Personally, I think San and Bantu are as distinct as Swedes and Tamils.

[Edgü]

The Poles are the most R1a nation, Belarus is not far behind. We R1as founded South Asia and the Indo-Aryan cultures, not the R1bs. Also the Steppe is actually located in Russia and Ukraine, not in Britain or Norway. The Cossacks were arguably the most Steppic Europeans in terms of culture and lifestyle.

Cossacks are Turks in terms of culture lifestyle and some of their ancestry that is why they are the most "Steppic Europeans" they even got their name from Turks :picard2:

[Leto]

Cossacks are Turks in terms of culture lifestyle and some of their ancestry that is why they are the most "Steppic Europeans" they even got their name from Turks :picard2:
And the Turkics had borrowed a lot from Indo-Europeans centuries prior to that. Otherwise they would've been like Tungus-Altaic or Manchurian peoples.

The Cossacks are Slavs/Russians and Orthodox Christians and they emerged in Europe geographically. Not saying they are the purest Indo-Europeans or something. I said "culturally in Europe".

[Leto]

I'd say one big misconception is that language and genetics are supposed to correlate strongly everytime. That's not always the case to say the least.

[PaleoEuropean]

The idea that all Europeans are just a 3-way mix of WHG-EEF-PIE to varying degrees is still one that I see bandied around.

more of a generalization.

[Edgü]

And the Turkics had borrowed a lot from Indo-Europeans centuries prior to that. Otherwise they would've been like Tungus-Altaic or Manchurian peoples.

The Cossacks are Slavs/Russians and Orthodox Christians and they emerged in Europe geographically. Not saying they are the purest Indo-Europeans or something. I said "culturally in Europe".

Oh boy :picard2:

Turks were the one who taught IE to ride horses we Turks are the fathers of IE civilization

[Leto]

Oh boy :picard2:

Turks were the one who taught IE to ride horses we Turks are the fathers of IE civilization
Please stop this Turkish supremacy. I didn't say anything about the Turk(ic)s.

[Leto]

more of a generalization.
Is that even wrong? That idea. :icon_ask:

[Zoro]

Norwegians and Irish have the most direct steppe. Russians/East slavs have extra added EHG/KHG/BHG which is mistaken as steppe.

But EHG when calculated properly is a more reliable indicator of Steppe than WHG or EEF or Yamnaya since Yamnaya is about 50% W Asian which means if someone has high Yamnaya using a regular admixture calculator or G25 it simply could mean that individual has high EEF and WHG because those 2 can easily be confounded as steppe by calculators. Perhaps that’s where people get Norwegians and Irish have more steppe than Russians/E Slavs which actually is not true.

So I would say EHG is the best Neolithic age indicator of steppe unless you also want to add Baikal-N if you include E Siberia in steppe

[Kyp]

But EHG when calculated properly is a more reliable indicator of Steppe than WHG or EEF or Yamnaya since Yamnaya is about 50% W Asian which means if someone has high Yamnaya using a regular admixture calculator or G25 it simply could mean that individual has high EEF and WHG because those 2 can easily be confounded as steppe by calculators. Perhaps that’s where people get Norwegians and Irish have more steppe than Russians/E Slavs which actually is not true.

So I would say EHG is the best Neolithic age indicator of steppe unless you also want to add Baikal-N if you include E Siberia in steppe

EEF is not related to the West Asian Indo-Europeans had so your point has no base.

[Zoro]

EEF is not related to the West Asian Indo-Europeans had so your point has no base.

Seems you don’t read whatever i read carefully!

That’s what i said genius. That’s why you can’t use yamnaya as an indicator of steppe because it has alot of CHG/EEF related. That’s why EHG is more reliable indicator than Yamnaya. One can also add Botai-EN or Baikal-EN depending on how steppe is defined

[catgeorge]

more of a generalization.

More of the norm. Outliers obviously exist...

[Leto]

Fucking Zoro is defending my Steppeness xD

[Kyp]

Seems you don’t read whatever i read carefully!

That’s what i said genius. That’s why you can’t use yamnaya as an indicator of steppe because it has alot of CHG/EEF related. That’s why EHG is more reliable indicator than Yamnaya. One can also add Botai-EN or Baikal-EN depending on how steppe is defined

Okay so you are arguing that the steppe samples we have are no reliable samples in determining steppe-ancestry. Now I understand what you mean. But I don't agree. You can only take into account what's available.

[Zoro]

Okay so you are arguing that the steppe samples we have are no reliable samples in determining steppe-ancestry. Now I understand what you mean. But I don't agree. You can only take into account what's available.

That’s not what I said. I was just responding to the guy who said irish and Norwegians have more steppe than Russians and E Slavs and implying EHG is not a good indicator of steppe.

ANE actually may even be a better indicator of steppe than even EHG

[Kyp]

That’s not what I said. I was just responding to the guy who said irish and Norwegians have more steppe than Russians and E Slavs and implying EHG is not a good indicator of steppe.

ANE actually may even be a better indicator of steppe than even EHG

I think when we talk about "Steppe" it's usually a very fixed thing in most people's heads. Meaning descent of Yamnaya etc.. So the discussion is pointless.

[Zoro]

Fucking Zoro is defending my Steppeness xD

You should know by now man that i’m not here to win a popularity contest. I just defend the truth regardless of who it upsets

My signature line says we’ll take you out of darkness haha

[Leto]

I think R1a is just more iconic and romanticized than R1b in some circles. We're also more Barbarian-like, less refined and more Eastern culturally and geographically, hence why I brought up the Cossacks. Prior to them there were Scythians in the Western Steppe, going all the way back to the Achaemenid period.
R1b is strongly associated with Western Europe (unless it's some rarer Armenian/Anatolian type of lineage).

[Altaylı]

And the Turkics had borrowed a lot from Indo-Europeans centuries prior to that. Otherwise they would've been like Tungus-Altaic or Manchurian peoples.

Ridiculous.

[Zoro]

I think when we talk about "Steppe" it's usually a very fixed thing in most people's heads. Meaning descent of Yamnaya etc.. So the discussion is pointless.

Ok but if i score high yamnaya how can you guarantee that my high score is not because i share alot of ancestral CHG/EEF with yamnaya and not because i’m highly yamnaya DESCENDED. You can’t guarantee because Admixture calculators and G25 can’t tell you Geneflow DIRECTION. You need much much much more sophisticated tools for direction of geneflow. The easier way is pick a steppe proxy that doesn’t have any chg/eef

That was my POINT

[Leto]

Ok but if i score high yamnaya how can you guarantee that my high score is not because i share alot of ancestral CHG/EEF with yamnaya and not because i’m highly yamnaya DESCENDED. You can’t guarantee because Admixture calculators and G25 can’t tell you Geneflow DIRECTION. You need much much much more sophisticated tools for direction of geneflow. The easier way is pick a steppe proxy that doesn’t have any chg/eef

That was my POINT
I think Kyp is right. People usually mean the Yamnaya or the Corded Ware when they talk about Steppe. In the case of Iran and Turan that'd be the Sintashta/Andronovo.

[catgeorge]

I think R1a is just more iconic and romanticized than R1b in some circles. We're also more Barbarian-like, less refined and more Eastern culturally and geographically, hence why I brought up the Cossacks. Prior to them there were Scythians in the Western Steppe, going all the way back to the Achaemenid period.
R1b is strongly associated with Western Europe (unless it's some rarer Armenian/Anatolian type of lineage).

Or Armenia were the first R1b or the first R1b that entered Europe was through L23 and eventually made it to Western Europe and mutated to L21.

[Trouble]

Seems you don’t read whatever i read carefully!

That’s what i said genius. That’s why you can’t use yamnaya as an indicator of steppe because it has alot of CHG/EEF related. That’s why EHG is more reliable indicator than Yamnaya. One can also add Botai-EN or Baikal-EN depending on how steppe is defined

What he was trying to say was that the two(Barcin/ANF) and CHG(found in steppe) are too distinct to be mistaken for one another genetically(which is a valid point). He's not just saying that they're not the same thing.

The CHG related ancestry in steppe groups was quite alien to most of Europe(except maybe the Balkans), whereas EHG is not. There was EHG found independently of steppe groups all over eastern Europe via eastern european hunter gatherers, not to mention there were transitional HG groups between WHG and EHG. Using EHG(or ANE) to measure steppe inflates it for east slavs, balts, and Finns. Therefore some sort of CHG related group is better for teasing out Indo European steppe ancestry in Europeans. When you do that, you do see that Scandos and Celts have just a smidgen more steppe than most eastern Euro groups. But it's not statistically different. They're equal for all intents and purposes.

Keep in mind this is flipped in West Asia where CHG was found long before and independent of Indo-European steppe, so it's a useless indicator and EHG is as that did arrive with steppe groups.

[Zoro]

What he was trying to say was that the two(Barcin/ANF) and CHG(found in steppe) are too distinct to be mistaken for one another genetically(which is a valid point). He's not just saying that they're not the same thing.

The CHG related ancestry in steppe groups was quite alien to most of Europe(except maybe the Balkans), whereas EHG is not. There was EHG found independently of steppe groups all over eastern Europe via eastern european hunter gatherers, not to mention there were transitional HG groups between WHG and EHG. Using EHG(or ANE) to measure steppe inflates it for east slavs, balts, and Finns. Therefore some sort of CHG related group is better for teasing out Indo European steppe ancestry in Europeans. When you do that, you do see that Scandos and Celts have just a smidgen more steppe than most eastern Euro groups. But it's not statistically different. They're equal for all intents and purposes.

Keep in mind this is flipped in West Asia where CHG was found long before and independent of Indo-European steppe, so it's a useless indicator and EHG is as that did arrive with steppe groups.

I get what you’re trying to say but the latest is that Yamnaya did have EEF related. Reich and others believe that Yamnaya’s west adian side is iran-chl related . Also modern Europeans could easily get some chg from balkans with all the back and forth in Europe over the past 5000 years. Distance from balkans to england is not that great relatively speaking

[Kyp]

I get what you’re trying to say but the latest is that Yamnaya did have EEF related. Reich and others believe that Yamnaya’s west adian side is iran-chl related . Also modern Europeans could easily get some chg from balkans with all the back and forth in Europe over the past 5000 years. Distance from balkans to england is not that great relatively speaking

I think CHG/Iran related gets higher in the Northwest, this cannot be explained by Balkan IMO.

[Lemminkäinen]

You are not surprised of me telling this. People think that Baltic Finns are genetically (and were culturally) close descendants of the people who invent the FU language. There have been during last decades several attempts to prove this. In the 80s we had a continuation theory (Wiik among others) stating that Baltic Finns live now where they have lived from the Ice Age. Now, people try to theorize that they came from the Volga Kama region. Both theories try to explain obvious facts, the Continuation Theory genes and the culture, the Volga Kama theory the language. All the time ppl intentionally want to prove these things, forget all conflicting facts, in Estonia and Finland they are like a sect or cancer ruining logic and science.

[Jana]

Hungarians are just Slavo-Germanic mix
Croats and Serbs are same or closest related people genetically
Greeks are closer to Italians than to Albanians
Bosniaks have Turkish admixture
Turks are just native Anatolian
ANE is a white genetic marker
R1b being less IE than R1a
I2-din being native Balkan
E-V13 being neolithic
J2 being neolithic
Slavicness measured by amount of R1a only
Romania being transitional between Ukraine and Balkans genetically
Main genetic difference in Europe is west to east
Having Siberian admixture makes you whiter

[Trouble]

I get what you’re trying to say but the latest is that Yamnaya did have EEF related. Reich and others believe that Yamnaya’s west adian side is iran-chl related . Also modern Europeans could easily get some chg from balkans with all the back and forth in Europe over the past 5000 years. Distance from balkans to england is not that great relatively speaking

The EEF in Yamnaya is quite minor if I’m not mistaken. Nothing like the amount found in modern Euros or even Corded Ware/Sintashta.

I don’t think the Balkans influenced either NW/N Europe or even Eastern Europe. It seems to be the other way around. There’s some straight CHG-like admixture in the Balkans whereas the kind you see in Yamnaya is somewhat more diverged.

[Samnium]

France has a great continuity with Continental Celtic samples, so yeah, definitely pred. Celtic. Direct roman influence (in genetics) is generally limited to SE France (Provence). It's not at all a genetical misconception.

Germanic "ancestry" is present all over the Northern half of France. In NW France (Normandy, Brittany, Pas-de-Calais) it's a more "british like" component.

Recent studies prove that, French people are pretty more or less the same since Iron Age.

[Jana]

France has a great continuity with Continental Celtic samples, so yeah, definitely pred. Celtic. Direct roman influence (in genetics) is generally limited to SE France (Provence). It's not at all a genetical misconception.

Germanic "ancestry" is present all over the Northern half of France. In NW France (Normandy, Brittany, Pas-de-Calais) it's a more "british like" component.

Recent studies prove that, French people are pretty more or less the same since Iron Age.

I doubt it. It's possible they were shifted south by Romans and than shifted back north by Franks, Vikings and British Kelts, thus may appear very similar to Iron Age Gauls.
I don't doubt France has Gaulish base, but I don't agree there were little changes since IA.

Similar happened in north Italy, they appear artificially similar to early Italics and Republican Romans, but they were shifted south by Imperial Romans and than back north by Lombards and other Germanic tribes.
Which is why Latins had more WHG while modern north Italians have higher steppe and east Med component despite they seem "almost the same" when it comes to plotting. There was no continuity in this case, same may apply to France.

[catgeorge]

Greeks still call French Gauls today.

Feels weird calling a French black man - Gallos

[Token]

Some more technical, non-trivial misconceptions:

The lower the distance, the better: no, overfitting is as bad as underfitting (https://towardsdatascience.com/what-are-overfitting-and-underfitting-in-machine-learning-a96b30864690). In practice, all overfitted models with tons of reference populations fail when put to test in formal stats. The best models are the ones that use at most 3 averaged references and manage to reach good fits with these. Global25 and nMonte hide a lot of stuff to make things simpler for its user, but don't forget that when you remove this abstraction nMonte is no more than a statistical inference tool subject to the usual statistics good practices, and G25 is the image on a 25-dimensional euclidean space of a function produced by SmartPCA over a couple of ancestry-informative SNPs.

Basal Eurasian is West Eurasian: as its name suggests, Basal Eurasian is a population thought to have diverged from the ancestors of Cromagnons (West Eurasian proper) and eastern non-Africans before they diverged from each other and before Eurasians underwent admixture events with Neanderthals. Thus it is equally closely related to both (https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6639), that is, Cromagnons and eastern non-Africans form a clade to the exclusion of Basal Eurasian. So neither west nor east, but something else.

Scaled is better than unscaled: scaling involves multiplying each coordinate given by G25 via SmartPCA by its squared eigenvalue. Doing that makes higher-dimensional coordinates with lower eigenvalue tend to zero, so that variation stored in these coordinates end up being lost. It is a dubious method, and no genetic paper use scaling in their PCAs, so why would you use?

[Leto]

ANE is present in pretty much all Europeans, so yes, it's technically a "white component". Proper East Asians score little to none of it.

[Jana]

ANE is present in pretty much all Europeans, so yes, it's technically a "white component". Proper East Asians score little to none of it.

It's not, because it doesn't peak in Europeans. It's a very exotic component with Onge (Australoid like) and Mongoloid affinities.

[Leto]

It's not, because it doesn't peak in Europeans. It's a very exotic component with Onge (Australoid like) and Mongoloid affinities.
If it's an important and integral part of the genome, then you can't call it "exotic". First I'd like to know the average percentage of ANE by country. I believe it should be in double digits even in places like France, Britain and Germany.

[Tacitus]

That southern Italians, Greek islanders, and Ashkenazi Jews are genetically identical.

[Jana]

If it's an important and integral part of the genome, then you can't call it "exotic". First I'd like to know the average percentage of ANE by country. I believe it should be in double digits even in places like France, Britain and Germany.

It is, but that doesn't make it white if you ask me. If it peaks in other race it's pretty exotic. Same for Natufian, big in some Europeans but non white admix peaking in middle easterners.

[Leto]

There are some major misconceptions but I won't mention them, let's let sleeping dogs lie (I don't mean anything offensive or related to being dark or light).

[J. Ketch]

There are some major misconceptions but I won't mention them, let's let sleeping dogs lie (I don't mean anything offensive or related to being dark or light).
Don't be timid, this is the thread to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of truth :eek:

[Kyp]

If it's an important and integral part of the genome, then you can't call it "exotic". First I'd like to know the average percentage of ANE by country. I believe it should be in double digits even in places like France, Britain and Germany.


It is, but that doesn't make it white if you ask me. If it peaks in other race it's pretty exotic. Same for Natufian, big in some Europeans but non white admix peaking in middle easterners.

I think it's too ancient to call it white or non-white. But yes non-european groups like Caucasians and Iranians score a shit ton of it (especially North Caucasus)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/be/c2/cb/bec2cb8e8a345e1968b85e7bf2411458.png

[Altaylı]

ANE is present in pretty much all Europeans, so yes, it's technically a "white component". Proper East Asians score little to none of it.

yes Native Americans, Kets, and Selkups are all whites

[Leto]

I think it's too ancient to call it white or non-white. But yes non-european groups like Caucasians and Iranians score a shit ton of it (especially North Caucasus)

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/be/c2/cb/bec2cb8e8a345e1968b85e7bf2411458.png
Take a look at Dagestan. Probably the reason why they score both North Europe and Gedrosia ("Yamnaya" in G25 terms) in such massive amounts.

[Leto]

yes Native Americans, Kets, and Selkups are all whites
Can you stop following me, kid? Let me tell you I'm not interested in talking to you. Go troll and provoke people elsewhere.

[Jana]

I think it's too ancient to call it white or non-white. But yes non-european groups like Caucasians and Iranians score a shit ton of it (especially North Caucasus)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/be/c2/cb/bec2cb8e8a345e1968b85e7bf2411458.png

Also Amerindians and north Indians. I think it actually peaks in Karitiana (natives of Brazil)

[Altaylı]

Can you stop following me, kid? Let me tell you I'm not interested in talking to you. Go troll and provoke people elsewhere.

so Kets Native americans and Selkups are all white?

[JamesBond007]

Was going to post this. The Y dna difference between the English and the Irish is actually huge. Irish have almost no I1/u106; less than parts of the Balkans. Which ties into another myth that they are heavily viking/germanic spawn.

Hiya, I'm afraid if your speech patterns are anything to go by then you are quite American or something and not English as your English is terribly American sounding. However, at the end of the day I don't think he was posting about Y-DNA first and foremost as the english have both Germanic and 'Celtic' or native British R1b DNA; I was under the impression he was talking autosomally as Y-DNA is not that significant apart from a cultural patriarchial point of view. It's autosomal DNA that makes you who you are but of course ones Y-DNA etc.. should be consistent too.

For instance, on G25 it has me as Dutch. BTW, mate, this is not about me but I would venture to guess just about any Southern English person would cluster closely with the Duch rather than the Irish.

G25:

Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02865262 Dutch
0.02966312 Norwegian

MTA :

1. Southwest_English (4.229)
2. Southeast_English (4.317)
3. North_Dutch (4.418)
4. Danish (4.780)
5. West_Scottish (4.970)

[Kaspias]

Turkish is equal to Anatolian Turk
Balkan Turks are just Muslim Balkanites / Muslim Balkanites are ethnic Turks

[Zoro]

Truth be told since this is not a community of geneticists there are too many misconceptions to count. This is basically a group of younger people with some having some interest in genetics but not proficient enough to do their own analysis. Thus they rely on a couple of basic tools such as Admixture and G25 to solve all the problems in genetics. So people thank each other not based on their actual genetic contribution to this place but based on how much the other person agrees with them or thanks them.

Anyways too many misconceptions but a couple I get a kick out of :

- You can simply add the "mongoloid" components in a calculator to get total E. Eurasian no matter if the calculator is k11, k13 or k30 or you can just look at a 23andme or ancestrydna result

- the closer distances or better fits on G25 indicate good model

[Zoro]

ANE is present in pretty much all Europeans, so yes, it's technically a "white component". Proper East Asians score little to none of it.

I agreed with you on the Russian thing but will not agree on this one (read some of those boring papers like i do and you can give stronger opinions lol). The kid has a point.

It's not similar to other UP Europeans. Here's the proof from the ancient siberian paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/448829v1

Unlike Ancient UP Europeans, Ancient Siberians (ANS) which includes Malta received about 30% admixture from ancient paleolithic east asians (Tiyanuan) before the last Ice Age when Mammoths were roaming all over Siberia.

https://i.imgur.com/E08t2TY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Gxm3tcx.jpg

This makes sense since ANE were way out there in Siberia.

[Slavic Italian]

That a dominant trait is without a doubt 100% inherited and passed down to the next generation. That's not true unless both parents have the trait.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Turkish is equal to Anatolian Turk
Balkan Turks are just Muslim Balkanites / Muslim Balkanites are ethnic Turks

If a person has a slavo-thracian genetic background, does this show anything else than the fact that this person regardless from religion, is actually a person with native slavo-thracian ancestors?

Like for example all Turks of Bulgaria who are genetically more like Christian Bulgarians than Turks of Turkey?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Greeks still call French Gauls today.

Feels weird calling a French black man - Gallos

And swiss elvetoi (at least french come directly from Gauls, unlike German swiss who are not descendants of elvetoi)

But this is not a genetic misconception, quite the opposite, we call French by their genetically accurate name: gauls, not franks who were significantly more northern European

[brennus dux gallorum]

Hungarians are just Slavo-Germanic mix
Croats and Serbs are same or closest related people genetically
Greeks are closer to Italians than to Albanians
Bosniaks have Turkish admixture
Turks are just native Anatolian
ANE is a white genetic marker
R1b being less IE than R1a
I2-din being native Balkan
E-V13 being neolithic
J2 being neolithic
Slavicness measured by amount of R1a only
Romania being transitional between Ukraine and Balkans genetically
Main genetic difference in Europe is west to east
Having Siberian admixture makes you whiter

This is not a misconception, as nobody ever claimed such a thing

Greek mainlanders, central Italians and Albanians of Albania (not kosovo) are all genetically very close with each other, meanwhile Greek islanders and some exotic mainlanders are much closer to southern Italians than to albanians, central Italians and Greek mainlanders

[David Johnson]

Hiya, I'm afraid if your speech patterns are anything to go by then you are quite American or something and not English as your English is terribly American sounding. However, at the end of the day I don't think he was posting about Y-DNA first and foremost as the english have both Germanic and 'Celtic' or native British R1b DNA; I was under the impression he was talking autosomally as Y-DNA is not that significant apart from a cultural patriarchial point of view. It's autosomal DNA that makes you who you are but of course ones Y-DNA etc.. should be consistent too.

For instance, on G25 it has me as Dutch. BTW, mate, this is not about me but I would venture to guess just about any Southern English person would cluster closely with the Duch rather than the Irish.

G25:

Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02865262 Dutch
0.02966312 Norwegian

MTA :

1. Southwest_English (4.229)
2. Southeast_English (4.317)
3. North_Dutch (4.418)
4. Danish (4.780)
5. West_Scottish (4.970)

I'm not an Amerimutt like you; you're projecting boy.

All NW European pops are very close autosomally, especially on these admix calcs which can't distinguish C/G genetic drift very well. That's why Y dna for NW Europeans can be very evidential, as it shows that the paternal ancient origins of the English/Irish are very different. L21 is sub 20% in every part of England aside from Cornwall, and sub 5% in parts of East England.

That's also why a Paddy/German mix like you ends up "English" on these calcs.

[Trouble]

The biggest misconceptions are probably related to Iranians, Turks, Iraqis or any West Asians tbh...

For Iranians, it's that people see them as being on par with Syrians in terms of lightness. People tend to exaggerate how light Iranians are, probably because they happen to be an Indo-European speaking people. As for Iraqis, a lot of people say they descend mostly or entirely from gulf arabs which is only partially true. Syrians are heavily darkwashed.

[Kaspias]

If a person has a slavo-thracian genetic background, does this show anything else than the fact that this person regardless from religion, is actually a person with native slavo-thracian ancestors?

Like for example all Turks of Bulgaria who are genetically more like Christian Bulgarians than Turks of Turkey?

Native stock of Balkan Turks is Slavic and Thracian.
Native stock of Anatolian Turks is Anatolian Greeks.

The term Turkey Turks covers both of them. Clustering with Anatolian Turks is not a way to measure the Turkishness.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Native stock of Balkan Turks is Slavic and Thracian.
Native stock of Anatolian Turks is Anatolian Greeks.

The term Turkey Turks covers both of them. Clustering with Anatolian Turks is not a way to measure the Turkishness.

Native anatolian Turks are 40-60% central asian, especially in mugla region. This is how turkishness should be defined: a person with at least 30-40% central asian roots and partially native anatolian ancestry (Which doesnt necesserily means "Greek", as far as we are not talking about anatolian coasts

I cant see a slavo-thracian person as "Turk" just because he/she worships allah instead of Jesus Christ or Svarog

[Chris596]

Native anatolian Turks are 40-60% central asian, especially in mugla region. This is how turkishness should be defined: a person with at least 30-40% central asian roots and partially native anatolian ancestry (Which doesnt necesserily means "Greek", as far as we are not talking about anatolian coasts

I cant see a slavo-thracian person as "Turk" just because he/she worships allah instead of Jesus Christ or Svarog

But they have Turkic ancestry in addition to that. How can a native Balkan/Anatolian person end up with Siberian and East Asian ancestry then? Other native Balkanites don't score 2-5-10% or whatever Turkic.

This is the difference imo

[Grace O'Malley]

I'm not an Amerimutt like you; you're projecting boy.

All NW European pops are very close autosomally, especially on these admix calcs which can't distinguish C/G genetic drift very well. That's why Y dna for NW Europeans can be very evidential, as it shows that the paternal ancient origins of the English/Irish are very different. L21 is sub 20% in every part of England aside from Cornwall, and sub 5% in parts of East England.

That's also why a Paddy/German mix like you ends up "English" on these calcs.

Not sure whether ydna is a good indicator of admixture. L21 is the ydna of the Bell Beakers that repopulated Britain and Ireland during the Bronze Age which I'm sure you are aware of but surely English still have a lot of this Bell Beaker ancestry as Ydna can expand and decrease very quickly. The reason for the dominance of L21 in Ireland would of course be related to the Bell Beakers but also to the clan dynamics i.e. some dynasties were dominant and spread certain subclades like M222 and L226 etc. If any group fell into disfavour they would have difficult fathering children especially in places like Ireland that have this clan system right up to the late medieval period and a bit later in some places.

Also if the calcs are to be believed I end up Dutch on a lot of these so not sure what can be ascertained about any population. Most probably the peer reviewed studies might be the way to go but they can throw up some strange results and conclusions also.

Relating to this I think it is a misconception that all the L21 in Western Norway is the result of Vikings and slavery. I think it will be shown that this was in that area possibly due to Corded Ware/Beakers.

[Linebacker]

I think its the fact that they actually matter on an ethnic/racial level.

The reality is genetic "bonuses" and positive qualities you receive as a result of them come down to the individual. Some individuals will get them and some will not regardless of their ethnic and racial origin.

[Grace O'Malley]

Or Armenia were the first R1b or the first R1b that entered Europe was through L23 and eventually made it to Western Europe and mutated to L21.

I doubt it. L21 is far from L23.

https://i.imgur.com/RO1kWiL.png

[Kaspias]

Native anatolian Turks are 40-60% central asian, especially in mugla region. This is how turkishness should be defined: a person with at least 30-40% central asian roots and partially native anatolian ancestry (Which doesnt necesserily means "Greek", as far as we are not talking about anatolian coasts

I cant see a slavo-thracian person as "Turk" just because he/she worships allah instead of Jesus Christ or Svarog

You shouldn't see either. Community which we name Balkan Turks have additional Turkic admixture, which changes from 10% to 50%. While Balkan Muslims are lacking it. It is not nuclear science, being Anatolian has nothing to do with being Turkish, because the unifying denominator is the Turkic admixture, not Anatolian. The nation they live in is called the Republic of Turkey, not the Republic of Anatolia. Simultaneously, it includes both Balkan and Anatolian Turkish subjects as their core population.

On the other hand, except for NE and maybe SE Anatolia, all the Anatolian Turks have native admixture which comes from Greek speakers.

[Ion Basescul]

R1a is the ultimate Slavic haplogroup, when I-Y3120 is the only one that's directly linked to the expansion of Slavs so far.

[brennus dux gallorum]

You shouldn't see either. Community which we name Balkan Turks have additional Turkic admixture, which changes from 10% to 50%. While Balkan Muslims are lacking it. It is not nuclear science, being Anatolian has nothing to do with being Turkish, because the unifying denominator is the Turkic admixture, not Anatolian. The nation they live in is called the Republic of Turkey, not the Republic of Anatolia. Simultaneously, it includes both Balkan and Anatolian Turkish subjects as their core population.

On the other hand, except for NE and maybe SE Anatolia, all the Anatolian Turks have native admixture which comes from Greek speakers.
Turkic admixture is not uncommon among native balkaners, both muslim or Christians, even as south as fyrom or Bulgaria. Certainly lower than among "Balkan Turks", but still existent

Still turkic admixture among balkan Turks is dwarf compared to turkic admixture among anatolians, who in many cases are half turkic

[Kaspias]

Turkic admixture is not uncommon among native balkaners, both muslim or Christians, even as south as fyrom or Bulgaria. Certainly lower than among "Balkan Turks", but still existent

Still turkic admixture among balkan Turks is dwarf compared to turkic admixture among anatolians, who in many cases are half turkic

How did you come up with that conclusion? Can you show a reference?

Balkan Turks are Turkic as much as Central Anatolian Turks when we compared the averages. For example, my father, who is from Komotini, often gets 50% Uzbekistan Turkmen in the dual oracles. I, being half Balkan Turk and half Pomak, carrying 25% Turkic admixture.

On the other hand, having a "tiny" or "giant" amount of East Eurasian doesn't mean anything either. What we need is a readable Turkic admixture that includes Turkic and slightly Iranic elements which will be resulted in Turkic populations in the oracles. None of the Balkan populations have such a case perhaps except for some Romanians and Szekelys, while Balkan Turks have it without an exception as a sign of their traceable Turkic ancestry.

While even 10% of the autosomal admixture might replace one's language in the Balkans(Slavic-Macedonians/Greek-Macedonians, for example), preserving such amount of Turkic admixture in mass amounts(~10 Million) actually should mean Balkan Turks are more homogenous than, for example, the total Greek population.

[brennus dux gallorum]

How did you come up with that conclusion? Can you show a reference?

Balkan Turks are Turkic as much as Central Anatolian Turks when we compared the averages. For example, my father, who is from Komotini, often gets 50% Uzbekistan Turkmen in the dual oracles. I, being half Balkan Turk and half Pomak, carrying 25% Turkic admixture.

On the other hand, having a "tiny" or "giant" amount of East Eurasian doesn't mean anything either. What we need is a readable Turkic admixture that includes Turkic and slightly Iranic elements which will be resulted in Turkic populations in the oracles. None of the Balkan populations have such a case perhaps except for some Romanians and Szekelys, while Balkan Turks have it without an exception as a sign of their traceable Turkic ancestry.

While even 10% of the autosomal admixture might replace one's language in the Balkans(Slavic-Macedonians/Greek-Macedonians, for example), preserving such amount of Turkic admixture in mass amounts(~10 Million) actually should mean Balkan Turks are more homogenous than, for example, the total Greek population.

I didnt count west thrace Turks as Balkan Turks. I was talking about Turkish speakers of Bulgaria fyrom Romania etc. Their results published here rarely have more than 10% Turkish admixture

[Kaspias]

I didnt count west thrace Turks as Balkan Turks. I was talking about Turkish speakers of Bulgaria fyrom Romania etc. Their results published here rarely have more than 10% Turkish admixture

Well, any native Turkish who live in the West of Istanbul (except Istanbul) is considered as Balkan Turks. Plus, Turkic admixture actually peaks in Bulgaria.

East Eurasian =/= Turkic.

The amount of Turkic together with other elements such as Caucasian(for Nogay's case), or Iranian(for late-comer Turkmen's/Azerbaijani's case) varies from 5% to 55%. One with 10% East Eurasian can get 40% Turkmen for example, but I get only 25% with 9%. There are various other factors to determine your actual percentage, but it is safe to say you should multiply East Eurasian score with 4x to see actual "Ottoman" admixture. In some cases, it might be lower as much as 2x or can go up as much as 6x.

The main idea here is to see how Balkan Turks differentiate from the natives of where they live.

Now check the samples:

https://i.ibb.co/5W5pHhX/Rumeli.png

Here, Macedonia shows up as the lowest average. But when looking at the regional condition, you see that all three(Hellenic/Slavic/Turkic) populations who live in the region only differentiated only with 10% of their admixture. So do Turks. A similar case will be applicable for Thrace and Deliorman.

https://i.ibb.co/vVVk5Qq/makedonya.png

[Mejgusu]

But they have Turkic ancestry in addition to that. How can a native Balkan/Anatolian person end up with Siberian and East Asian ancestry then? Other native Balkanites don't score 2-5-10% or whatever Turkic.

This is the difference imo

I also don’t understand why some are very petty if we talk about Turks but regarding other themes they are very excessive and inaccurate...

[Scandal]

'Northern slavs are always more proto-slavic by ancestry than south slavs'.
Incorrect. Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes are more slavic than czechs. The aforementioned SW slavic groups are also more slavic than Russians from certain regions. Serbs are probably as Slavic as Czechs.
'Belarus is most proto-slavic country genetically'
Most likely not, they're too baltic admixed. Ukraine is probably the most slavic genetically, followed by Slovakia and Poland.
'There's significant difference between West Hungary (Transdanubia) and East Hungary (Alföld).'
I suppose it's not a very common misconception because not many people care, but I've seen a few people try to divide Hungarians on an east-west basis.
They're different indeed and it depends on how one defines 'significant difference' , but on k13 they don't have big distances to each other. 'Hungary_Transdanubia+Budapest' region gets Alföld as its closest population (k13), so Alföld is just hungarian genetically, not an outlier or anything.
There was one particular user here that argued Hungarians from W. Hungary are ethnically/racially more like Austrians than Hungarians from East Hungary - bollocks, totally refuted by genetics.
It's Northeast Hungary - which is Hungary_north on vahaduo k13 I believe - that deviates more. Hungarian minority of Romania (Székely) deviate even more from Hungarian avarage.

[Scandal]

This thread was a good idea.

[David Johnson]

Not sure whether ydna is a good indicator of admixture. L21 is the ydna of the Bell Beakers that repopulated Britain and Ireland during the Bronze Age which I'm sure you are aware of but surely English still have a lot of this Bell Beaker ancestry as Ydna can expand and decrease very quickly. The reason for the dominance of L21 in Ireland would of course be related to the Bell Beakers but also to the clan dynamics i.e. some dynasties were dominant and spread certain subclades like M222 and L226 etc. If any group fell into disfavour they would have difficult fathering children especially in places like Ireland that have this clan system right up to the late medieval period and a bit later in some places.

Also if the calcs are to be believed I end up Dutch on a lot of these so not sure what can be ascertained about any population. Most probably the peer reviewed studies might be the way to go but they can throw up some strange results and conclusions also.

Relating to this I think it is a misconception that all the L21 in Western Norway is the result of Vikings and slavery. I think it will be shown that this was in that area possibly due to Corded Ware/Beakers.

Irish/Dutch are only close on gedcalcs; on more advanced tools like the C/G pca they're not. It's like how the Irish are much closer to the Anglo-Saxon samples than the English using these tools; it's just because Irish have similar steppe levels not because of any direct ancestral ties. I think English have a lot less beaker admix and a lot more germanic than people think but we will have to wait for the upcoming study Anglo-Saxon study. The Y dna certainly implies a mass replacement.

[catgeorge]

I doubt it. L21 is far from L23.

https://i.imgur.com/RO1kWiL.png

Well your chart says it all - L23 stepped into Europe first and muted in the west several thousands years later.

[Dick]

R1a is the ultimate Slavic haplogroup, when I-Y3120 is the only one that's directly linked to the expansion of Slavs so far.

Yes but not necessarily. Rethel has markers match with a R1a Serb from Kosovo.

[Scandal]

Why was David Johnson banned, he seemed like a decent member

[Grace O'Malley]

Irish/Dutch are only close on gedcalcs; on more advanced tools like the C/G pca they're not. It's like how the Irish are much closer to the Anglo-Saxon samples than the English using these tools; it's just because Irish have similar steppe levels not because of any direct ancestral ties. I think English have a lot less beaker admix and a lot more germanic than people think but we will have to wait for the upcoming study Anglo-Saxon study. The Y dna certainly implies a mass replacement.

CvG is sensitive to drift. It's a very specific tool for a certain purpose. The Beakers at any rate look like they are single grave Corded Ware so all these ancient populations look so similar anyway. Germanic vs Celtic is over rated when looking at genetics. Ydna is not so great for looking at admixture also the same problem with mtdna. Ydna is only a tiny portion of someone's dna and populations with different ydna all cluster together if they are from the same population. Ydna is very easily displaced or will become dominant in a short space of time. Anyway my point is that all Northwestern Europeans are very close genetically. Not that I'm not interested in seeing what input different groups had on populations which I'm sure future studies will clarify when they are published.

Davidski also said that the Global 25 was more informative than the CvG which was specifically looking at British Isles drift.

[Kaspias]

Why was David Johnson banned, he seemed like a decent member

He opened a thread with the name "CHRISTIANS 0 - 1 PAGANS"

[Samnium]

I doubt it. It's possible they were shifted south by Romans and than shifted back north by Franks, Vikings and British Kelts, thus may appear very similar to Iron Age Gauls.

It's simply not possible historically. It would need massive barbaric invasions to "shift back north" the "southern influence" brought by Romains. What you see is that all samples of IA are within the French cluster. It shows that Roman and germanic influence (especially Roman) has been quite limited. Now I don't doubt that regions like Normandy will have some Scando-like DNA, neither that armorican migrations have changed Britanny but you still have this continuity.



Similar happened in north Italy, they appear artificially similar to early Italics and Republican Romans, but they were shifted south by Imperial Romans and than back north by Lombards and other Germanic tribes.

Except that it's not the case in France... Romans were only 600 000 in France, with about 6 million gauls and much of the Romans settled in Provence. Without saying that Romans did not mixed easily with Gauls, so I don't know where is your point.

Germanics did have some impact, but it's quite the same discourse. In Rhone-Alpes there were some 300 000 burgundians (germanic ethnicity) that got "diluted" in the pre-existent population.



Which is why Latins had more WHG while modern north Italians have higher steppe and east Med component despite they seem "almost the same" when it comes to plotting. There was no continuity in this case, same may apply to France.

That's simply not true... IA French samples are very similar to French in components, it's not about plotting. (I've never brought the plotting idea here).

[XenophobicPrussian]

It's simply not possible historically. It would need massive barbaric invasions to "shift back north" the "southern influence" brought by Romains. What you see is that all samples of IA are within the French cluster. It shows that Roman and germanic influence (especially Roman) has been quite limited. Now I don't doubt that regions like Normandy will have some Scando-like DNA, neither that armorican migrations have changed Britanny but you still have this continuity.




Except that it's not the case in France... Romans were only 600 000 in France, with about 6 million gauls and much of the Romans settled in Provence. Without saying that Romans did not mixed easily with Gauls, so I don't know where is your point.

Germanics did have some impact, but it's quite the same discourse. In Rhone-Alpes there were some 300 000 burgundians (germanic ethnicity) that got "diluted" in the pre-existent population.



That's simply not true... IA French samples are very similar to French in components, it's not about plotting. (I've never brought the plotting idea here).
Keep ignoring Y-DNA/mtDNA.

[J. Ketch]

It can't be a coincidence that Northeast French and Southwest Germans heavily overlap, can it? Their admixtures can't be that different. Same for Flemish, Walloons and some South Dutch.

[Jana]

It can't be a coincidence that Northeast French and Southwest Germans heavily overlap, can it? Their admixtures can't be that different. Same for Flemish, Walloons and some South Dutch.

They're all of similar Frankish/Allemanic + Gaulish/Belgae stock if you ask me, probably with a whiff of Roman.

[Samnium]

Keep ignoring Y-DNA/mtDNA.

Keep ignoring conclusions brought by paleogenetical studies and historians.

"Individuals from Hallstatt and La Tène culture in the French territory display similar affinities toward both modern and ancient populations"

https://i.imgur.com/Y4qSd5i.png

The roman "invasion" has been debunked by a lot of historians, just saying. Romans were at most 10%, and not uniformly. Much of them lived in Southern France in cities like Arles, Nimes or Cannes.

Anyway, I stop there, I won't loose more time.

[Beers]

Huge amount of misinformation and disinfo about the genetics of Ashkenazim.
Nearly all the population genetics studies that compare them to Europeans leave out any populations in Italy below Tuscany, knowing full well if they included South Italians and Sicilians they would be show heavy overlap with them.

Then "Semitic" is also used as a racial and not the linguistic term that it is, with Ashkenazim, despite the fact that Yiddish their unique language is non Semitic, and also the fact that they heavily overlap genetically with Indo-European/Greco-Roman populations on an autosomal level; and not with any Semitic groups other than the Maltese.

On Gedmatch their calculators like K15 have a dead zone between Abruzzo and Tuscany, leaving out most of central Italy, to this day never heard anyone even mention how inaccurate this renders their results.

[Jana]

Samnium may be right. Germanic ydna isn't that big in France

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/2a455fce-cd74-4375-9833-ba3072ef7b67/d8fztsi-2a9c8929-34f3-4751-946b-fd64d2a7d5b3.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjph cHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMmE0NTVmY2UtY2 Q3NC00Mzc1LTk4MzMtYmEzMDcyZWY3YjY3XC9kOGZ6dHNpLTJh OWM4OTI5LTM0ZjMtNDc1MS05NDZiLWZkNjRkMmE3ZDViMy5wbm cifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9h ZCJdfQ.iZn2jbLZ5EqOrlV9tQ_u1mvWr-US64vmADVR9BoxehA

and neither is Roman. Their main branch of R1b is Gaulish subclade of U152. Yeah, I guess French kept their Gaulish base very well, with extra Germanic or Briton input in the north and east and Roman or Basque in the south.

[Samnium]

Samnium may be right. Germanic ydna isn't that big in France

and neither is Roman. Their main branch of R1b is Gaulish subclade of U152. Yeah, I guess French kept their Gaulish base very well, with extra Germanic or Briton input in the north and east and Roman or Basque in the south.

It's more or less that, Roman or Germanic has altered a bit the "Gaulish base", but even Northern French aren't that "northern" compared to Central French or even much of Southern French. There's a gradient, sure, but it's nowhere as massive as in Italy and it do not change that people from Alsace or Picardy are closer to Auvergnats or people from Bordeaux than to Scandos or English people.

French are an homogenous population if I have to say. You can see it on Gedmatch, French "core" is really concentrated around 55% and 65% northern components in K13, with outliers for both parts like people from NW Frenchs or Corsicans.

[Aren]

Samnium may be right. Germanic ydna isn't that big in France

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/2a455fce-cd74-4375-9833-ba3072ef7b67/d8fztsi-2a9c8929-34f3-4751-946b-fd64d2a7d5b3.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjph cHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMmE0NTVmY2UtY2 Q3NC00Mzc1LTk4MzMtYmEzMDcyZWY3YjY3XC9kOGZ6dHNpLTJh OWM4OTI5LTM0ZjMtNDc1MS05NDZiLWZkNjRkMmE3ZDViMy5wbm cifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9h ZCJdfQ.iZn2jbLZ5EqOrlV9tQ_u1mvWr-US64vmADVR9BoxehA

and neither is Roman. Their main branch of R1b is Gaulish subclade of U152. Yeah, I guess French kept their Gaulish base very well, with extra Germanic or Briton input in the north and east and Roman or Basque in the south.

French Y-DNA is not well studied at all. We hardly know much about their uniparentals to draw such conclusions.

[Aren]

The supposed East Eurasian percentage in Medieval Turks keeps shrinking by the minute on this forum. In a couple years Seljuqs will be so Western they'll plot with WHG samples.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Samnium may be right. Germanic ydna isn't that big in France

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/2a455fce-cd74-4375-9833-ba3072ef7b67/d8fztsi-2a9c8929-34f3-4751-946b-fd64d2a7d5b3.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjph cHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMmE0NTVmY2UtY2 Q3NC00Mzc1LTk4MzMtYmEzMDcyZWY3YjY3XC9kOGZ6dHNpLTJh OWM4OTI5LTM0ZjMtNDc1MS05NDZiLWZkNjRkMmE3ZDViMy5wbm cifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9h ZCJdfQ.iZn2jbLZ5EqOrlV9tQ_u1mvWr-US64vmADVR9BoxehA

and neither is Roman. Their main branch of R1b is Gaulish subclade of U152. Yeah, I guess French kept their Gaulish base very well, with extra Germanic or Briton input in the north and east and Roman or Basque in the south.
Those numbers are big, especially given autosomal tends to be higher than Y-DNA numbers. It all depends on what you mean by significant I guess. No one is claiming France is half Germanic(the context is basically Samnium claiming they have none or noise level at various points on this forum, he seems to have switched his stance to "some" now although who knows how much he means by some, and he still denies Roman) or whatever, but let's say the country as a whole has 15% Germanic Y-DNA and 15-20% autosomal Germanic contribution, up to 40-50% in some areas in the highly populated north, that's significant. U152/S28 may or may not be both a shared Roman/Celtic haplogroup(rather big assumption you make there), but the vast majority of E1b, J1, J2 in France is undoubtably from the Romans, as we have a gigantic database by now of EEF Y-DNA.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Benelux-France-maps.png

https://thedockyards.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Genetic-Map-of-Europe.png

Roman is undoubtably significant in French, up to 10% even in the North, 15-30% in the South/Central, 30-40% in the South East.

[Aren]

Those numbers are big, especially given autosomal tends to be higher than Y-DNA numbers. It all depends on what you mean by significant I guess. No one is claiming France is half Germanic(the context is basically Samnium claiming they have none or noise level at various points on this forum, he seems to have switched his stance to "some" now although who knows how much he means by some, and he still denies Roman) or whatever, but let's say the country as a whole has 15% Germanic Y-DNA and 15-20% autosomal Germanic contribution, up to 40-50% in some areas in the highly populated north, that's significant. U152/S28 may or may not be both a shared Roman/Celtic haplogroup(rather big assumption you make there), but the vast majority of E1b, J1, J2 in France is undoubtably from the Romans, as we have a gigantic database by now of EEF Y-DNA.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Benelux-France-maps.png

https://thedockyards.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Genetic-Map-of-Europe.png

Roman is undoubtably significant in French, up to 10% even in the North, 15-30% in the South/Central, 30-40% in the South East.

Wasn't one of the French (pre-Roman)Iron Age samples E-V13? E-V13 has also been found in a Late Neolithic farmer in neighbouring Germany. Much points to E-V13 in France arriving with movements of Hallstatt Celts.
I don't understand how anyone can take any sampling from France seriously. It's still illegal to test and sample individuals in France based on ethnicity.

[Samnium]

Wasn't one of the French (pre-Roman)Iron Age samples E-V13? E-V13 has also been found in a Late Neolithic farmer in neighbouring Germany. Much points to E-V13 in France arriving with movements of Hallstatt Celts.
I don't understand how anyone can take any sampling from France seriously. It's still illegal to test and sample individuals in France based on ethnicity.

Haplogroups and autosomal input aren't absolutely linked so I don't understand how someone can use it in this way : "there's 30 % germanic Y-DNA so let's say there is 15 % germanic autosomal input", there's a good counter-example to that : Benevento area that shows elevated numbers of germanic Y-DNA (40% I believe), yet they still plot southern of people from Roma or Marche and don't show any significant germanic in models.

[Token]

There shouldn't be more Frankish admixture in southern and south-central France than, say, Visigothic admixture in Spain. Typically Frankish Reihengräber graves are nearly inexistent south of the Loire, so either first generation Frankish migrants completely abandoned their burial traditions upon settling in southern France or there weren't any Franks there to begin with (at least not in significant numbers). The first hypothesis seems less likely since Rhinelandic burials become abundant in northern France under Frankish rule, and historical sources tells us that Franks didn't even bother to replace the traditional Roman landowning aristocracy south of the Loire like Germanic people did basically everywhere else (including in northern France). The nearly total lack of Germanic influence in d'òc languages doesn't suggests any significant contact with Frankish speakers (in strong contrast to the heavily Germanized d'oil languages). Frankish presence in northern and northeastern France is a different story.

[Aren]

Haplogroups and autosomal input aren't absolutely linked so I don't understand how someone can use it in this way : "there's 30 % germanic Y-DNA so let's say there is 15 % germanic autosomal input", there's a good counter-example to that : Benevento area that shows elevated numbers of germanic Y-DNA (40% I believe), yet they still plot southern of people from Roma or Marche and don't show any significant germanic in models.

Maybe when it comes to populations with a historically small population size, such as Finns, Saami, Basques etc. But by the time the Germanics overran France there were millions living there. France probably has the biggest effective population size of any country in Europe, including Russia. It's hard to skew the numbers from an uniparental perspective when the population is that big.
France is probably very mixed though. Either significant Roman or significant Germanic input depending on how higher coverage Gaulish samples will score like. Add to that continuous migration from Spain and Italy into southern France since centuries back. On the other end you have some Northern French being indistuingshable from Dutch/Brits and even closer to Scandinavians than to their fellow countrymen in the south. It's hard to imagine that kind of range without any Germanic input in the North or signficant Italian/Spanish in the South.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Wasn't one of the French (pre-Roman)Iron Age samples E-V13? E-V13 has also been found in a Late Neolithic farmer in neighbouring Germany. Much points to E-V13 in France arriving with movements of Hallstatt Celts.
I don't understand how anyone can take any sampling from France seriously. It's still illegal to test and sample individuals in France based on ethnicity.
That's why I said most, and not all E1b in France is v13.

[Aren]

There shouldn't be more Frankish admixture in southern and south-central France than, say, Visigothic admixture in Spain. Typically Frankish Reihengräber graves are nearly inexistent south of the Loire, so either first generation Frankish migrants completely abandoned their burial traditions upon settling in southern France or there weren't any Franks there to begin with (at least not in significant numbers). The first hypothesis seems less likely since Rhinelandic burials become abundant in northern France under Frankish rule, and historical sources tells us that Franks didn't even bother to replace the traditional Roman landowning aristocracy south of the Loire like Germanic people did basically everywhere else (including in northern France). The nearly total lack of Germanic influence in d'òc languages doesn't suggests any significant contact with Frankish speakers (in strong contrast to the heavily Germanized d'oil languages). Frankish presence in northern and northeastern France is a different story.

You are understimating internal migrations, especially for a country that's been united as long as France has. From a linguistic perspective one should probably look for loans from Oil dialects into Occitan rather than straight up Frankish. David has an Occitan average in his spreadsheet, how accurate it is I'm not sure but it does require a large amount of Germanic when modelled with the Swiss IA sample as the pre-Roman, pre-Frankish base.

Distance: 1.5891% / 0.01589085
Target: French_Occitanie
55.8 CHE_IA
40.6 DEU_MA
3.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial

[gixajo]

Haplogroups and autosomal input aren't absolutely linked so I don't understand how someone can use it in this way : "there's 30 % germanic Y-DNA so let's say there is 15 % germanic autosomal input", there's a good counter-example to that : Benevento area that shows elevated numbers of germanic Y-DNA (40% I believe), yet they still plot southern of people from Roma or Marche and don't show any significant germanic in models.

That´s true.

My father or me don´t have any special germanic input on our autosomal Dna despite our subclade supposedly of Germanic origin. We have many examples of this in several forum members.

But I do not agree with the genetic homogeneity of the French, I still cannot understand how you can say this after so many time here.

Maybe in the future, with more people testing, the so called "French unique cluster" is better defined, and we can have a good French modern component.(and ancient, because just now we have with ancient french components the same problem than with moderns).

[gixajo]

Maybe when it comes to populations with a historically small population size, such as Finns, Saami, Basques etc. But by the time the Germanics overran France there were millions living there. France probably has the biggest effective population size of any country in Europe, including Russia. It's hard to skew the numbers from an uniparental perspective when the population is that big.
France is probably very mixed though. Either significant Roman or significant Germanic input depending on how higher coverage Gaulish samples will score like. Add to that continuous migration from Spain and Italy into southern France since decades back. On the other end you have some Northern French being indistuingshable from Dutch/Brits and even closer to Scandinavians than to their fellow countrymen in the south. It's hard to imagine that kind of range without any Germanic input in the North or signficant Italian/Spanish in the South.

The Iberian (i am not sure about Italian one) admixture in South France is not mostly modern.

[Aren]

The Iberian (i am not sure about Italian one) admixture in South France is not mostly modern.

Yes I actually meant to write centuries, not decades.

[Samnium]

But I do not agree with the genetic homogeneity of the French, I still cannot understand how you can say this after so many time here.


French aren't the most homogenous population out there but there is a "French core" cluster which includes nearly 80% of the population. So, yeah, there's surely homogeneity.

[Aren]

The Iberian (i am not sure about Italian one) admixture in South France is not mostly modern.

Yes I actually meant to write centuries, not decades.

[gixajo]

Yes I actually meant to write centuries, not decades.

Romans and Greek sources considered Aquitania and his tribes as an Iberian projection beyond the Pyrenees.

[Samnium]

Maybe when it comes to populations with a historically small population size, such as Finns, Saami, Basques etc. But by the time the Germanics overran France there were millions living there. France probably has the biggest effective population size of any country in Europe, including Russia. It's hard to skew the numbers from an uniparental perspective when the population is that big. .

You can still do it, even with "large" populations. Haplogroups are very useful but one shouldn't estimate autosomal input by judging haplogroups distribution because the relation between the two is nowhere linear.


France is probably very mixed though. Either significant Roman or significant Germanic input depending on how higher coverage Gaulish samples will score like. Add to that continuous migration from Spain and Italy into southern France since centuries back. On the other end you have some Northern French being indistuingshable from Dutch/Brits and even closer to Scandinavians than to their fellow countrymen in the south. It's hard to imagine that kind of range without any Germanic input in the North or signficant Italian/Spanish in the South.

IA French had that range, and they score very similar to French, despite that there wasn't any Roman or "Germanic" in France at this time.

And btw, I've never seen a French scoring like a full-blown brit. I've seen that maybe only one or two times. It's non-existent. Even the most northern shifted people in Normandy etc. are still more southern than S. English.

[Token]

You are understimating internal migrations, especially for a country that's been united as long as France has. From a linguistic perspective one should probably look for loans from Oil dialects into Occitan rather than straight up Frankish. David has an Occitan average in his spreadsheet, how accurate it is I'm not sure but it does require a large amount of Germanic when modelled with the Swiss IA sample as the pre-Roman, pre-Frankish base.

Distance: 1.5891% / 0.01589085
Target: French_Occitanie
55.8 CHE_IA
40.6 DEU_MA
3.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial

I can see Frankish admixture spreading colaterally through internal migrations. But Germanic Y-DNA seems to be very low in Southern France (2% I1 in Provence in +100 samples), so these hypothetical migrations doesn't seem to have brought much change.

[Leto]

Is Jewish influence strong in parts of France? France has the largest Jewish diaspora in modern Europe.

[Samnium]

Is Jewish influence strong in parts of France? France has the largest Jewish diaspora in modern Europe.

They are concentrated in Ile de France (Paris region), but I would say not really. They don't mix with locals, usually. I've yet to see a "Jewish influenced" French on gedmatch (J. admixture is easy to detect, it's not even S-Italian like, especially if we are talking about N.Africans jews).

[XenophobicPrussian]

You are understimating internal migrations, especially for a country that's been united as long as France has. From a linguistic perspective one should probably look for loans from Oil dialects into Occitan rather than straight up Frankish. David has an Occitan average in his spreadsheet, how accurate it is I'm not sure but it does require a large amount of Germanic when modelled with the Swiss IA sample as the pre-Roman, pre-Frankish base.

Distance: 1.5891% / 0.01589085
Target: French_Occitanie
55.8 CHE_IA
40.6 DEU_MA
3.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
That's just a bad model though, CHE_IA is one sample vs a multitude in DEU_MA(also not purely Germanic, 2 outliers need to not be included). Also not "overfitted" enough(although Token would consider this a good thing). Basically, DEU_MA is eating up all the Beaker/non-Germanic British like admixture in Occitanians because a proxy for it isn't included in the model, CHE_IA was SW-French/Iberian-like. Occitanians have around 10% Germanic admixture, whether or not any Germanic tribes settled there, people who think people didn't move around in the Medieval era, 1700s, 1800s, etc. are very confused people. Rome_Imperial is also too southern to represent the average Roman.

[gixajo]

You can still do it, even with "large" populations. Haplogroups are very useful but one shouldn't estimate autosomal input by judging haplogroups distribution because the relation between the two is nowhere linear.

IA French had that range, and they score very similar to French, despite that there wasn't any Roman or "Germanic" in France at this time.

And btw, I've never seen a French scoring like a full-blown brit. I've seen that maybe only one or two times. It's non-existent. Even the most northern shifted people in Normandy etc. are still more southern than S. English.

Frenchs in Anthrogenica are not very happy with those French IA references.

[Aren]

You can still do it, even with "large" populations. Haplogroups are very useful but one shouldn't estimate autosomal input by judging haplogroups distribution because the relation between the two is nowhere linear.

20% Germanic Y-DNA might not mean exactly 20%, but with such a large population size the difference in impact between auDNA and Y-DNA should be very low, probably a few percentages here and there.

IA French had that range, and they score very similar to French, despite that there wasn't any Roman or "Germanic" in France at this time.
When averaged, yes they are similar to modern day French but individually they were all over the place and that might well be cause of their very low coverage. Some from the south were very northern shifted and vice versa.

And btw, I've never seen a French scoring like a full-blown brit. I've seen that maybe only one or two times. It's non-existent. Even the most northern shifted people in Normandy etc. are still more southern than S. English.
There are plenty.
Here are some French PCA 25 coordinates I've collected(not from the spreadsheet obviously).


Distance to: Normandie2
0.02213800 English
0.02812132 Danish
0.03975917 French_Occitanie
0.06726042 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.07203522 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Normandie1
0.01519655 English
0.02151695 Danish
0.04823896 French_Occitanie
0.07668620 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08579078 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Hauts-de-France9
0.02830968 English
0.03697903 Danish
0.03706417 French_Occitanie
0.06328872 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.07099405 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Hauts-de-France2
0.02112616 English
0.03258316 Danish
0.03409552 French_Occitanie
0.06104770 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.06823807 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Hauts-de-France1
0.02816495 English
0.03482229 French_Occitanie
0.03709094 Danish
0.05895780 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.06528997 Italian_Lombardy

[RogueState]

I know modern population genetics have shown that Ashkenazi Jews are not just European converts but they do carry real Levantine (original Jewish) admixture, and that they can be modeled as 50% Italian - 50% Lebanese (or something close to that)

But still, it baffles me that genetically-speaking, Portuguese people for instance like Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes, Figo, Sergio Conceicao, are more "North European" than Ashkenazi Jews like Woody Allen or Steven Spielberg

People will say genotype is not phenotype, I accept it, I'm not denying it, but still I'm quite surprised that for people supposed to be half South European-half Levantine, in other words quintessentially Mediterranean (being the bridge between the two sides of the Mediterranean), they end up looking so "light" and "un-Mediterranean" on average. I say on average, because indeed some Ashkenazi Jews do have a Mediterranean phenotype, but they are not the majority.

Imagine Al Pacino (of South Italian origin, one of my favorite actor) and Valerie Abou Chacra (former Miss Lebanon, one of the most beautiful in the world), have a kid, it should genetically end up being close to an Ashkenazi Jew, right ? So them :
https://i.postimg.cc/pXYYyzXK/Michael-Corleone-Part-I.png
https://i.postimg.cc/xds68H56/DKgp-FCc-X0-AEZUf-X.jpg

Ending up having a kid like that ???
https://i.postimg.cc/CKWfcxxF/ad6c916ab59d5f770e345bc89ff3bbab.jpg

[gixajo]

That's just a bad model though, CHE_IA is one sample vs a multitude in DEU_MA(also not purely Germanic, 2 outliers need to not be included). Also not "overfitted" enough(although Token would consider this a good thing). Basically, DEU_MA is eating up all the Beaker/non-Germanic British like admixture in Occitanians because a proxy for it isn't included in the model, CHE_IA was SW-French/Iberian-like. Occitanians have around 10% Germanic admixture, whether or not any Germanic tribes settled there, people who think people didn't move around in the Medieval era, 1700s, 1800s, etc. are very confused people. Rome_Imperial is also too southern to represent the average Roman.

CHE_IA average is my mother and my 5th closest ancient reference and the 8th closest reference to my father in the whole datasheet, so it cannot be very "Germanic".;)

[Samnium]

20% Germanic Y-DNA might not mean exactly 20%, but with such a large population size the difference in impact between auDNA and Y-DNA should be very low, probably a few percentages here and there.

When averaged, yes they are similar to modern day French but individually they were all over the place and that might well be cause of their very low coverage. Some from the south were very northern shifted and vice versa.

There are plenty.
Here are some French PCA 25 coordinates I've collected(not from the spreadsheet obviously).


Distance to: Normandie2
0.02213800 English
0.02812132 Danish
0.03975917 French_Occitanie
0.06726042 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.07203522 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Normandie1
0.01519655 English
0.02151695 Danish
0.04823896 French_Occitanie
0.07668620 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08579078 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Hauts-de-France9
0.02830968 English
0.03697903 Danish
0.03706417 French_Occitanie
0.06328872 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.07099405 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Hauts-de-France2
0.02112616 English
0.03258316 Danish
0.03409552 French_Occitanie
0.06104770 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.06823807 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Hauts-de-France1
0.02816495 English
0.03482229 French_Occitanie
0.03709094 Danish
0.05895780 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.06528997 Italian_Lombardy


3 samples are "very" close (especially Normandie1), the two others close but they would end up in the Northern French cluster I would say.

I'm sure if you would model them you will still see that they are more southern than English people (except maybe the Normandie1).

So does not invalidate my point, they don't represent average northerner in any way, you can check Peterski K13 averages (with several hundreds samples) that are representative of what France is.


Frenchs in Anthrogenica are not very happy with those French IA references.

Do not care, in Anthrogenica there are people with known agendas, like angleville that tries to put all his energy to deny that French people exist genetically.

People were banned for opposing his views.

[Leto]

Ending up having a kid like that ???
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/CKWfcxxF/ad6c916ab59d5f770e345bc89ff3bbab.jpg
That isn't an average Jewish person. Remember the old National Socialist cartoons of the Jew. Not very white-looking if you ask me.

[Jana]

And btw, I've never seen a French scoring like a full-blown brit. I've seen that maybe only one or two times. It's non-existent. Even the most northern shifted people in Normandy etc. are still more southern than S. English.

It's existant. Here is my DNA relative from Brittany, 100% French Breton with gedcom and geneaological family tree.

1 North_Atlantic 49.2
2 Baltic 23.52
3 West_Med 15.87
4 East_Med 5.62
5 West_Asian 3.91
6 Northeast_African 1.78
7 Red_Sea 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

1 Southeast_English 3.15
2 Southwest_English 4.39
3 Orcadian 5.17
4 South_Dutch 5.43
5 North_Dutch 6.22
6 Irish 6.32
7 West_Scottish 6.44
8 Danish 6.54
9 West_German 6.83
10 North_German 7.33
11 Norwegian 8.41
12 French 10.01
13 Swedish 10.08
14 Austrian 12.64
15 East_German 13.26
16 North_Swedish 15.32
17 Spanish_Cataluna 16.58
18 Hungarian 17.42
19 Southwest_French 17.54
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 96.1% Southeast_English + 3.9% Sardinian @ 2.51
2 71.3% Norwegian + 28.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.54
3 90.4% Southeast_English + 9.6% Southwest_French @ 2.55
4 70.7% Norwegian + 29.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.55
5 90.6% Southeast_English + 9.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.57
6 68.5% Norwegian + 31.5% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.57
7 74.3% Danish + 25.7% Southwest_French @ 2.59
8 75.4% North_Dutch + 24.6% Southwest_French @ 2.59
9 91% Southeast_English + 9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.6
10 91% Southeast_English + 9% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.6
11 91.2% Southeast_English + 8.8% Portuguese @ 2.62
12 70.5% Norwegian + 29.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.62
13 76% North_Dutch + 24% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.62
14 98.2% Southeast_English + 1.8% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 2.62
15 91.8% Southeast_English + 8.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.63
16 69.1% Norwegian + 30.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.64
17 97.9% Southeast_English + 2.1% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 2.64
18 97.9% Southeast_English + 2.1% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 2.65
19 96.7% Southeast_English + 3.3% Moroccan @ 2.65
20 78% North_Dutch + 22% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.65

I posted another Breton from same family who is more southern, but you can see how northern NW French can be. I think this one passes for full southern English from genetic pow (like Cornish for example). But Creoda can correct me if I am mistaken.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?270173-French-Bretons-on-Gedmatch&p=7034424&viewfull=1#post7034424

[Aren]

That's just a bad model though, CHE_IA is one sample vs a multitude in DEU_MA(also not purely Germanic, 2 outliers need to not be included). Also not "overfitted" enough(although Token would consider this a good thing). Basically, DEU_MA is eating up all the Beaker/non-Germanic British like admixture in Occitanians because a proxy for it isn't included in the model, CHE_IA was SW-French/Iberian-like. Occitanians have around 10% Germanic admixture, whether or not any Germanic tribes settled there, people who think people didn't move around in the Medieval era, 1700s, 1800s, etc. are very confused people. Rome_Imperial is also too southern to represent the average Roman.
I'm confident that this model is by far the most sensible for modern day Frenchmen, with the samples we have. Tell me, what other sample is there to use for their Gaulish/pre-Roman side?DEU_MA despite including one or two outliers who are slightly more southern is still very representative, using another Germanic source doesn't change much.
And why would we expect Gaulish southern French to be British-like? Surely the archeological history of southern France is more in line with a core Hallstatt region like Switzerland than with Britain. We have so many Imperial Roman samples that it's difficult to argue against their extreme southern profile. Like you also mentioned, J1 and J2 are probably the most common Roman markers in France which we would expect from a population rich in Levant_BA and Anatolia_BA admixture like the Imperial Romans.

Here I swapped DEU_MA, with the pure Lombards from Szolad. And an Imperial Roman average without the Near Eastern samples included. It doesn't change much.

Distance: 1.4680% / 0.01468046
Target: French_Occitanie
53.5 CHE_IA
40.3 HUN_MA_Szolad_Northern_Profile
6.2 Imperial_Roman_East_Med

[Aren]

Spaghetti code double post.

[Samnium]

It's existant. Here is my DNA relative from Brittany, 100% French Breton with gedcom and geneaological family tree.

1 North_Atlantic 49.2
2 Baltic 23.52
3 West_Med 15.87
4 East_Med 5.62
5 West_Asian 3.91
6 Northeast_African 1.78
7 Red_Sea 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

1 Southeast_English 3.15
2 Southwest_English 4.39
3 Orcadian 5.17
4 South_Dutch 5.43
5 North_Dutch 6.22
6 Irish 6.32
7 West_Scottish 6.44
8 Danish 6.54
9 West_German 6.83
10 North_German 7.33
11 Norwegian 8.41
12 French 10.01
13 Swedish 10.08
14 Austrian 12.64
15 East_German 13.26
16 North_Swedish 15.32
17 Spanish_Cataluna 16.58
18 Hungarian 17.42
19 Southwest_French 17.54
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 96.1% Southeast_English + 3.9% Sardinian @ 2.51
2 71.3% Norwegian + 28.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.54
3 90.4% Southeast_English + 9.6% Southwest_French @ 2.55
4 70.7% Norwegian + 29.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.55
5 90.6% Southeast_English + 9.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.57
6 68.5% Norwegian + 31.5% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.57
7 74.3% Danish + 25.7% Southwest_French @ 2.59
8 75.4% North_Dutch + 24.6% Southwest_French @ 2.59
9 91% Southeast_English + 9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.6
10 91% Southeast_English + 9% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.6
11 91.2% Southeast_English + 8.8% Portuguese @ 2.62
12 70.5% Norwegian + 29.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.62
13 76% North_Dutch + 24% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.62
14 98.2% Southeast_English + 1.8% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 2.62
15 91.8% Southeast_English + 8.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.63
16 69.1% Norwegian + 30.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.64
17 97.9% Southeast_English + 2.1% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 2.64
18 97.9% Southeast_English + 2.1% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 2.65
19 96.7% Southeast_English + 3.3% Moroccan @ 2.65
20 78% North_Dutch + 22% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.65

I posted another Breton from same family who is more southern, but you can see how northern NW French can be. I think this passes for full southern English from genetic pow (like Cornish for example). But Creoda can correct me if I am mistaken.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?270173-French-Bretons-on-Gedmatch&p=7034424&viewfull=1#post7034424

Well, thanks you because it's the first sample that I see being really like a brit.

Because most Bretons are more southern than that.

[RogueState]

That isn't an average Jewish person. Remember the old National Socialist cartoons of the Jew. Not very white-looking if you ask me.

Let's take famous Jewish persons (businessman, intellectuals, politicians) :
- George Soros
- Sheldon Adelson
- Mark Zuckerberg
- Michael Bloomberg
- Larry Page
- Noam Chomsky
- Alan Dershowitz
- Yitzhak Rabin
- Benjamin Netanyahu
- Bernie Sanders

They don't look much what you would expect from their genetic results

[Varda]

Let's take famous Jewish persons (businessman, intellectuals, politicians) :
- George Soros
- Sheldon Adelson
- Mark Zuckerberg
- Michael Bloomberg
- Larry Page
- Noam Chomsky
- Alan Dershowitz
- Yitzhak Rabin
- Benjamin Netanyahu
- Bernie Sanders

They don't look much what you would expect from their genetic results

Kirk Douglas is Nordic looking Jew.

[Samnium]

Let's take famous Jewish persons (businessman, intellectuals, politicians) :
- George Soros
- Sheldon Adelson
- Mark Zuckerberg
- Michael Bloomberg
- Larry Page
- Noam Chomsky
- Alan Dershowitz
- Yitzhak Rabin
- Benjamin Netanyahu
- Bernie Sanders

They don't look much what you would expect from their genetic results

Almost all the people that you've quoted have "WANA" influence (someone will bring "Armenoid").

Only exception would be probably Soros.

[Leto]

A Frenchman from Normandy. We've interacted a bit because his Russian wife shares some DNA with my mom and she is also from roughly the same part of Russia.
He is very Northern.

North_Atlantic 49.46 Pct
Baltic 21.07 Pct
West_Med 15.52 Pct
West_Asian 3.31 Pct
East_Med 5.42 Pct
Red_Sea 1.7 Pct
South_Asian 1.46 Pct
East_Asian 0.26 Pct
Siberian 1.58 Pct
Amerindian 0.22 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Distance to: JMB
3.22355394 FRA_Armorica
4.31040601 English_Midlands
4.45819470 English_Southeast
4.61460724 Southwest_English
4.62350516 English
4.84737042 Dutch_South
5.32190755 English_North
6.08805388 Dutch
6.09700746 Orcadian
6.56330709 Dutch_Central
6.70203700 Ulster_British
6.78541082 Welsh
7.11457659 West_Scottish
7.29516963 Scottish
7.50658378 German_West
7.55181435 Irish_Munster
7.73934752 FRA_Belgica
7.86181277 Dutch_North
7.94475299 Irish_Ulster
8.26132556 Irish_Connacht

Distance: 186.0791% / 1.86079122
Target: JMB | ADC: 0.25x RC
84.6 Southwest_English
13.8 Swiss_Italian
1.6 Evens

Distance: 143.9602% / 1.43960220
Target: JMB
52.3 West_Scottish
23.6 Spanish_Aragon
22.1 Swedish
1.1 Yemenite_Jewish
0.9 Evens


North_Sea 39.15 Pct
Atlantic 23.82 Pct
Baltic 7.62 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.52 Pct
West_Med 12.07 Pct
West_Asian 1.52 Pct
East_Med 3.57 Pct
Red_Sea 1.44 Pct
South_Asian 1 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 1.14 Pct
Amerindian 0.15 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Distance to: JMB
6.52758761 Dutch_North
6.58728320 Dutch
6.63038460 Dutch_South
7.13323910 English_Midlands
7.36550066 English
7.42212234 Dutch_Central
7.49985333 English_Southeast
7.51198376 Southwest_English
7.57499835 English_North
7.76208091 Scotland
7.79710203 West_German
7.99596773 Welsh
8.05334713 Ulster_British
8.12182246 Orcadian
8.18552381 FRA_Armorica
8.88374921 Belgium
9.18695270 Norwegian
9.23447887 West_Norwegian
9.41359655 Danish
9.45595051 Norway

Distance: 394.9544% / 3.94954360
Target: JMB
62.5 West_Norwegian
24.9 Orcadian
11.1 Sardinian
1.2 Yemenite_Jewish
0.3 Evens

No update for K15.

[Leto]

Almost all the people that you've quoted have "WANA" influence (someone will bring "Armenoid").

Only exception would be probably Soros.
Zuck is light as fuck, I agree. Lighter than me probably, lol. Yitzhak Rabin barely looks Middle Eastern. He had light hair and blue eyes too. I'm too lazy to go and examine the rest.

[RogueState]

Almost all the people that you've quoted have "WANA" influence (someone will bring "Armenoid").

Only exception would be probably Soros.

Tu vois une influence orientale (terme qui n'a pas un sens génétiquement mais on se comprend, c'est ce qui est d'usage en français pour dire MENA/WANA) de manière retrospective parce que tu sais que ces personnes sont juïves ashkénazes. Tu demandes à des gens lambda en rue d'où viennent ces personnes ou à quelle région du monde pourraient-ils passer, personne te dirahonnêtement qu'ils ont l'air d'être Orientaux.

Je peux faire le jeu inverse et te trouver des tonnes de Portuguais, Espagnols, Italiens, Grecs, Balkaniques, qui peuvent passer bien mieux pour des Orientaux que les Juifs ashkénazes.

Encore une fois, l'objet de ma remarque, par rapport à ce thread, c'est que je ne nie pas que génétiquement, ils sont ce qu'ils sont, mais là où je bugge, c'est comment peut-il avoir une telle différence entre leur apparence moyenne et leur génétique.

Pour prendre un exemple franco-français, comment une Simone Veil ou un Alain Finkielkraut peuvent-ils être génétiquement être Méditerranéen ? Ca m'étonne tellement que je force ma raison à faire confiance à la génétique des populations, tellement ça paraît invraisemblable...

[Varda]

Zuck is light as fuck, I agree. Lighter than me probably, lol. Yitzhak Rabin barely looks Middle Eastern. He had light hair and blue eyes too. I'm too lazy to go and examine the rest.

Michael Rosenbaum is another ight Jew, similar as Zuckenberg in pigmentation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rosenbaum

[Aren]

3 samples are "very" close (especially Normandie1), the two others close but they would end up in the Northern French cluster I would say.

I'm sure if you would model them you will still see that they are more southern than English people (except maybe the Normandie1).
There are definitely Normans and other Northern French who can be more northern than the average English or Dutch. On average though ofc Northern French are more southern.
Here German Corded Ware represents northern admixture(high Steppe).


Distance: 2.2691% / 0.02269064
Target: English
66.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
33.6 FRA_MN

Distance: 3.0956% / 0.03095560
Target: Normandie1
67.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
33.0 FRA_MN

Distance: 2.6711% / 0.02671073
Target: Normandie2
64.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
35.2 FRA_MN

Distance: 3.0232% / 0.03023161
Target: Hauts-de-France10
66.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
33.8 FRA_MN

Distance: 2.3519% / 0.02351871
Target: Hauts-de-France9
63.5 Corded_Ware_DEU
36.5 FRA_MN

Distance: 2.3033% / 0.02303318
Target: Hauts-de-France2
63.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
37.0 FRA_MN

Distance: 2.7703% / 0.02770265
Target: Hauts-de-France1
62.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
38.0 FRA_MN


So does not invalidate my point, they don't represent average northerner in any way, you can check Peterski K13 averages (with several hundreds samples) that are representative of what France is.

Do not care, in Anthrogenica there are people with known agendas, like angleville that tries to put all his energy to deny that French people exist genetically. People were banned for opposing his views.
So the ones I showed you in, who are closer to Englishmen and sometimes even to Scandinavians than to their fellow countrymen in the south, are they not examples of the great diversity in France?

[Immanenz]

Kirk Douglas is Nordic looking Jew.

He was a robust Noric though

[Immanenz]

Let's take famous Jewish persons (businessman, intellectuals, politicians) :


They don't look much what you would expect from their genetic results

someone like Netenjahu not looking Jewish/Levant? Come on...

Ashkenazi descent from a very small group of people, so they are maybe modelled as half South Italian/ half Lebanese, but that does not mean they are looking like that. You will see however many Ashkenazi having a Taurid influenced phenotype and this peaks somewhere there in the Levant area- they are however much lighter than average Mena for sure.

Also many famous Ashkenazi (movie actors/actresses) are not fully ones.

But you are also mixing pigmentation with actually being North European genetically / two different pair of shoes- an albino Indian isnt different to other Indians genetically
https://c8.alamy.com/compde/m3npg9/albino-mann-indisch-hinduistischen-blonde-white-parade-matale-sri-lanka-m3npg9.jpg

[RogueState]

Of course, Albinos are the same genetically as non-Albino, but they are a rare statistical phenomenon. I'm not cherrypicking 0,1% of Ashkenazi Jews (if we want to compare it with Albino among Indians or SSA), but a good majority of them don't show much Mediterranean/Levantine influence.

Again, I'm not denying population genetics, I'm just still surprised by the gap between their genotypes and their phenotypes.

[gixajo]

So the ones I showed you in, who are closer to Englishmen and sometimes even to Scandinavians than to their fellow countrymen in the south, are they not examples of the great diversity in France?

Are these the references you used? (Scaled)


Corded_Ware_DEU,0.1298723,0.1110989,0.0568699,0.08 87606,0.0040622,0.0337179,0.001034,0.0025616,-0.0280402,-0.0395815,0.0003734,0.0023378,-0.0068234,-0.0095647,0.0240903,0.0072393,-0.0146682,0.0042188,-0.0020237,0.0046773,0.0029074,0.0013601,0.0060884, 0.0183278,8.38e-05
FRA_MN:FLR,0.1255849,0.1751224,0.0388014,-0.0551612,0.0745437,-0.0317626,-0.0030811,-0.0035897,0.0629704,0.0940136,0.0016961,0.0147369,-0.032342,-0.0136247,-0.0168896,0.00028,0.0137048,0.0023368,0.0038826,-0.0078647,0.0004297,0.0014701,-0.0100104,-0.0217834,-3.99e-05
FRA_MN:GRG,0.1254764,0.1745744,0.0404956,-0.0538949,0.0810847,-0.0332412,-0.0029767,-0.0004945,0.0602859,0.0947281,0.0007422,0.0156504,-0.0330451,-0.0151254,-0.0159569,0.0010039,0.0168568,0.0032215,0.0049382,-0.0061994,0.0043851,0.0032031,-0.010928,-0.024926,-0.0002965
FRA_MN:Lingolsheim,0.1236873,0.1739943,0.0209933,-0.0699833,0.070372,-0.038115,-0.0055617,-0.0059997,0.0455407,0.080913,0.0105013,0.015936,-0.025669,0.001789,-0.0294967,-0.0138777,0.0079967,0.006419,0.0119833,-0.0095047,-0.0029117,0.0033797,-0.0041083,-0.015303,0.0011573
FRA_MN:OBN,0.1249984,0.1695934,0.0513226,-0.0365871,0.0815535,-0.0234521,0.0001283,-0.0002518,0.0555376,0.0805485,0.003794,0.0100819,-0.019407,-0.0034657,-0.0166936,0.001977,0.0098974,0.0034895,0.0083417,-0.0005115,0.0088934,0.0071156,-0.01414,-0.0327319,-0.0006857
FRA_MN:PRI,0.1217905,0.17264,0.0465745,-0.044897,0.0753985,-0.029005,-0.0015275,-0.004269,0.06238,0.098134,0.0098245,0.015661,-0.029732,-0.014657,-0.0069895,0.003845,0.011213,0.006461,-0.00088,-0.000938,0.007549,-0.0024115,-0.0136805,-0.033619,0.0060475

[Aren]

Are these the references you used? (Scaled)


Corded_Ware_DEU,0.1298723,0.1110989,0.0568699,0.08 87606,0.0040622,0.0337179,0.001034,0.0025616,-0.0280402,-0.0395815,0.0003734,0.0023378,-0.0068234,-0.0095647,0.0240903,0.0072393,-0.0146682,0.0042188,-0.0020237,0.0046773,0.0029074,0.0013601,0.0060884, 0.0183278,8.38e-05
FRA_MN:FLR,0.1255849,0.1751224,0.0388014,-0.0551612,0.0745437,-0.0317626,-0.0030811,-0.0035897,0.0629704,0.0940136,0.0016961,0.0147369,-0.032342,-0.0136247,-0.0168896,0.00028,0.0137048,0.0023368,0.0038826,-0.0078647,0.0004297,0.0014701,-0.0100104,-0.0217834,-3.99e-05
FRA_MN:GRG,0.1254764,0.1745744,0.0404956,-0.0538949,0.0810847,-0.0332412,-0.0029767,-0.0004945,0.0602859,0.0947281,0.0007422,0.0156504,-0.0330451,-0.0151254,-0.0159569,0.0010039,0.0168568,0.0032215,0.0049382,-0.0061994,0.0043851,0.0032031,-0.010928,-0.024926,-0.0002965
FRA_MN:Lingolsheim,0.1236873,0.1739943,0.0209933,-0.0699833,0.070372,-0.038115,-0.0055617,-0.0059997,0.0455407,0.080913,0.0105013,0.015936,-0.025669,0.001789,-0.0294967,-0.0138777,0.0079967,0.006419,0.0119833,-0.0095047,-0.0029117,0.0033797,-0.0041083,-0.015303,0.0011573
FRA_MN:OBN,0.1249984,0.1695934,0.0513226,-0.0365871,0.0815535,-0.0234521,0.0001283,-0.0002518,0.0555376,0.0805485,0.003794,0.0100819,-0.019407,-0.0034657,-0.0166936,0.001977,0.0098974,0.0034895,0.0083417,-0.0005115,0.0088934,0.0071156,-0.01414,-0.0327319,-0.0006857
FRA_MN:PRI,0.1217905,0.17264,0.0465745,-0.044897,0.0753985,-0.029005,-0.0015275,-0.004269,0.06238,0.098134,0.0098245,0.015661,-0.029732,-0.014657,-0.0069895,0.003845,0.011213,0.006461,-0.00088,-0.000938,0.007549,-0.0024115,-0.0136805,-0.033619,0.0060475

I used these



FRA_MLN_Clos_de_Roque,0.1263437,0.1743323,0.05066,-0.037791,0.0882213,-0.0311427,-0.0052483,-0.001538,0.065243,0.093912,-0.0005413,0.0145873,-0.0304757,-0.0181207,-0.0094103,0.0049943,0.0136467,0.0028717,-0.000796,-0.0010423,0.0119787,0.0011127,-0.016885,-0.0292813,0.0008783
FRA_MN_Lingolsheim,0.1236873,0.1739943,0.0209933,-0.0699833,0.070372,-0.038115,-0.0055617,-0.0059997,0.0455407,0.080913,0.0105013,0.015936,-0.025669,0.001789,-0.0294967,-0.0138777,0.0079967,0.006419,0.0119833,-0.0095047,-0.0029117,0.0033797,-0.0041083,-0.015303,0.0011573
Corded_Ware_DEU,0.1298723,0.1110989,0.0568699,0.08 87606,0.0040622,0.0337179,0.001034,0.0025616,-0.0280402,-0.0395815,0.0003734,0.0023378,-0.0068234,-0.0095647,0.0240903,0.0072393,-0.0146682,0.0042188,-0.0020237,0.0046773,0.0029074,0.0013601,0.0060884, 0.0183278,8.38e-05

[Grace O'Malley]

Well your chart says it all - L23 stepped into Europe first and muted in the west several thousands years later.

The chart shows that it was Bronze Age and that some went west and some went east. You would also have to look at autosomal genetics. You also said that L23 mutated into L21 when it had many earlier mutations that all happened in Europe before becoming L21. L21 is a much later mutation that happened far in Europe.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Let's take famous Jewish persons (businessman, intellectuals, politicians) :
- George Soros
- Sheldon Adelson
- Mark Zuckerberg
- Michael Bloomberg
- Larry Page
- Noam Chomsky
- Alan Dershowitz
- Yitzhak Rabin
- Benjamin Netanyahu
- Bernie Sanders

They don't look much what you would expect from their genetic results
A "good majority of them" not showing a Levantine/Med influence is flat out wrong, they usually show it even if they're depigmented. Larry Page looks what he should look like.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/business/2012/04/larrypage.jpg

Same with Sanders, he got whiter looking as he got older.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPiG3rNX0AMwLyZ.jpg

Yes, Ashkenazis have lighter pigmentation than their genetics imply(on par with Romanians/Serbs) but it's not like they're on the level of Central Euros or anything, and the average still looks around the Atlanto-Med spectrum albeit usually with Armenid/Dinarid influence(which is still more northern than South Italians but it's not a huge difference. They've been living in the north for a long time now, and also they had more of an indoor culture even in the Medieval era, while most Europeans were working outside. Their increased lightness could very well be for the same possible reason Europeans originally became light, cave dwelling before being spread by sexual selection.

Also, just because someone is known as a "Jew"(especially in the US and non-Religious Jews), doesn't mean they're going to cluster like the actual Ashkenazi genetic profile we know. Lots of these people may be mixed, and Jews are some of the most involved in finding out their genetic ancestry so the academic samples might be extremely exclusive to only people who are confirmed 100% Ashkenazi from small communities.

[Leto]

How about this one
GEDmatch results of liberal political commentator David Pakman (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?332561-GEDmatch-results-of-liberal-political-commentator-David-Pakman)

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1238524243996000257/JtmbZZL-_400x400.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_David_Pakman_Show

http://www.jewishledger.com/2010/04/q-a-with-david-pakman/


https://youtu.be/5Gk9o_mywhU

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Kit BH1495400

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 38.98
2 West_Med 20.39
3 North_Atlantic 13.91
4 West_Asian 9.21
5 Baltic 8.94
6 Red_Sea 4.67
7 Amerindian 1.63
8 Northeast_African 1.36
9 East_Asian 0.53
10 Oceanian 0.35

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi 5.12
2 Italian_Jewish 6.52
3 Algerian_Jewish 7.14
4 Sephardic_Jewish 8.78
5 South_Italian 9.16
6 East_Sicilian 9.36
7 Tunisian_Jewish 10.3
8 Central_Greek 10.56
9 Libyan_Jewish 11
10 West_Sicilian 11.41
11 Italian_Abruzzo 13.38
12 Cyprian 13.85
13 Greek_Thessaly 14.43
14 Tuscan 17.3
15 Lebanese_Muslim 18.21
16 Samaritan 18.86
17 Syrian 19.55
18 Lebanese_Druze 19.63
19 Lebanese_Christian 20.07
20 Palestinian 20.1

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62.9% Ashkenazi + 37.1% Italian_Jewish @ 4.18
2 68.1% Ashkenazi + 31.9% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.39
3 81.6% Ashkenazi + 18.4% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.68
4 90.5% Ashkenazi + 9.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.69
5 90.1% Ashkenazi + 9.9% Samaritan @ 4.7
6 86.7% Ashkenazi + 13.3% Cyprian @ 4.71
7 83.3% Ashkenazi + 16.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.72
8 91.2% Ashkenazi + 8.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.78
9 92.1% Italian_Jewish + 7.9% Erzya @ 4.87
10 91.6% Italian_Jewish + 8.4% Southwest_Russian @ 4.92
11 84.5% Ashkenazi + 15.5% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.94
12 92.7% Italian_Jewish + 7.3% Lithuanian @ 4.95
13 96.3% Ashkenazi + 3.7% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.97
14 92.1% Italian_Jewish + 7.9% Estonian_Polish @ 4.97
15 91.8% Italian_Jewish + 8.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.98
16 94.8% Ashkenazi + 5.2% Palestinian @ 5.01
17 92.2% Italian_Jewish + 7.8% Belorussian @ 5.01
18 92.4% Italian_Jewish + 7.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.03
19 97.9% Ashkenazi + 2.1% Sardinian @ 5.06
20 92.2% Italian_Jewish + 7.8% Russian_Smolensk @ 5.06


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Kit BH1495400

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.57
2 West_Med 16.61
3 Atlantic 12.36
4 West_Asian 11.69
5 Red_Sea 6.54
6 North_Sea 6.34
7 Eastern_Euro 6.03
8 Baltic 5.42
9 Northeast_African 1.8
10 Amerindian 1.18
11 Oceanian 0.24
12 Southeast_Asian 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Jewish 6.13
2 Ashkenazi 6.29
3 Sephardic_Jewish 6.59
4 East_Sicilian 6.59
5 South_Italian 6.64
6 Algerian_Jewish 6.68
7 Central_Greek 7.23
8 West_Sicilian 7.96
9 Italian_Abruzzo 9.41
10 Tunisian_Jewish 9.74
11 Greek 10.42
12 Libyan_Jewish 11.67
13 Greek_Thessaly 12.08
14 Cyprian 12.49
15 Tuscan 14.08
16 Lebanese_Muslim 16.13
17 Syrian 16.79
18 Samaritan 18.24
19 Bulgarian 18.29
20 Jordanian 18.63

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.9% Algerian_Jewish + 12.1% Erzya @ 3.35
2 51.9% Tunisian_Jewish + 48.1% Greek @ 3.44
3 87.3% Algerian_Jewish + 12.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.53
4 87.9% Algerian_Jewish + 12.1% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.54
5 89.4% Italian_Jewish + 10.6% Erzya @ 3.56
6 87.5% Algerian_Jewish + 12.5% Southwest_Russian @ 3.57
7 63.6% Algerian_Jewish + 36.4% Greek @ 3.69
8 53.2% Greek + 46.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.71
9 76.4% Algerian_Jewish + 23.6% Bulgarian @ 3.74
10 83.9% Algerian_Jewish + 16.1% Moldavian @ 3.78
11 52.3% Ashkenazi + 47.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.78
12 87.7% Algerian_Jewish + 12.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.79
13 88.3% Algerian_Jewish + 11.7% Estonian_Polish @ 3.81
14 89.5% Italian_Jewish + 10.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.81
15 66.9% Italian_Jewish + 33.1% Greek @ 3.84
16 78.8% Algerian_Jewish + 21.2% Romanian @ 3.85
17 88.3% Algerian_Jewish + 11.7% Belorussian @ 3.86
18 88.7% Sephardic_Jewish + 11.3% Erzya @ 3.86
19 89.1% Italian_Jewish + 10.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.86
20 89.3% Italian_Jewish + 10.7% Southwest_Russian @ 3.88


HarappaWorld Oracle results:

Kit BH1495400

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 30.84
2 Mediterranean 25.39
3 NE-Euro 15.65
4 SW-Asian 15.6
5 Baloch 7.99
6 E-African 1.44
7 Beringian 1.08
8 SE-Asian 0.93
9 American 0.68
10 San 0.27
11 Papuan 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 4.04
2 ashkenazi (harappa) 5.71
3 sephardic-jew (behar) 8.35
4 morocco-jew (behar) 8.62
5 tuscan (1000genomes) 12.65
6 tuscan (hgdp) 13.22
7 tuscan (hapmap) 13.83
8 turk-aydin (hodoglugil) 16.38
9 cypriot (behar) 19.53
10 lebanese (behar) 20.57
11 italian (hgdp) 20.7
12 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 20.9
13 romanian-a (behar) 21.71
14 turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) 21.85
15 turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) 21.9
16 syrian (behar) 22.93
17 palestinian (harappa) 23.13
18 jordanian (behar) 23.28
19 turk (behar) 23.43
20 turkish (harappa) 23.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50.2% lebanese (behar) + 49.8% italian (hgdp) @ 2.08
2 85.1% sephardic-jew (behar) + 14.9% orcadian (hgdp) @ 2.16
3 84.3% sephardic-jew (behar) + 15.7% utahn-white (hapmap) @ 2.2
4 84% sephardic-jew (behar) + 16% n-european (xing) @ 2.24
5 83.9% sephardic-jew (behar) + 16.1% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.27
6 84.4% sephardic-jew (behar) + 15.6% british (1000genomes) @ 2.3
7 54.1% lebanese-christian (haber) + 45.9% spaniard (behar) @ 2.35
8 53% italian (hgdp) + 47% jordanian (behar) @ 2.35
9 52.6% italian (hgdp) + 47.4% syrian (behar) @ 2.37
10 54.5% lebanese-christian (haber) + 45.5% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.44
11 72.4% morocco-jew (behar) + 27.6% romanian-a (behar) @ 2.57
12 65.1% tuscan (1000genomes) + 34.9% jordanian (behar) @ 2.58
13 81.7% sephardic-jew (behar) + 18.3% hungarian (behar) @ 2.59
14 52.8% italian (hgdp) + 47.2% palestinian (harappa) @ 2.64
15 64.5% tuscan (hapmap) + 35.5% palestinian (hgdp) @ 2.66
16 71.7% morocco-jew (behar) + 28.3% bulgarian (yunusbayev) @ 2.69
17 57% lebanese-muslim (haber) + 43% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.72
18 93% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 7% morocco-n (henn2012) @ 2.75
19 82.4% sephardic-jew (behar) + 17.6% slovenian (xing) @ 2.77
20 93.7% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 6.3% tunisia (henn2012) @ 2.78


MDLP K23b Oracle results:

Kit BH1495400

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 34.89
2 European_Early_Farmers 22.2
3 Near_East 13.09
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.8
5 North_African 7.47
6 South_Central_Asian 5.01
7 Arctic 1.47
8 Austronesian 1.44
9 Amerindian 1.09
10 Khoisan 0.59
11 East_African 0.52
12 Ancestral_Altaic 0.22
13 South_East_Asian 0.16
14 Australoid 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian_West ( ) 4.46
2 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 4.77
3 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 4.87
4 Sephardic_Jew ( ) 5.1
5 Maltese ( ) 5.14
6 Turk_Jew ( ) 5.43
7 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 5.67
8 French_Jew ( ) 5.9
9 Moroccan_Jew ( ) 5.98
10 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 6.21
11 Italian_Jew ( ) 6.28
12 Sicilian_East ( ) 7.19
13 Ashkenazi ( ) 8.39
14 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 8.58
15 Greek_Northwest ( ) 8.83
16 Libyan_Jew ( ) 9
17 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 9.81
18 Bulgarian ( ) 9.89
19 Tunisian_Jew ( ) 10.01
20 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 10.05

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.5% Turk_Jew ( ) + 16.5% North_German ( ) @ 2.34
2 81.8% Turk_Jew ( ) + 18.2% South_German ( ) @ 2.36
3 78.8% Turk_Jew ( ) + 21.2% Austrian ( ) @ 2.39
4 86.4% Turk_Jew ( ) + 13.6% Norwegian_East ( ) @ 2.51
5 85.2% Turk_Jew ( ) + 14.8% Dane ( ) @ 2.52
6 85.9% Turk_Jew ( ) + 14.1% Swede ( ) @ 2.52
7 79.1% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 20.9% Hungarian ( ) @ 2.52
8 80.3% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 19.7% Austrian ( ) @ 2.53
9 78.7% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 21.3% Slovenian ( ) @ 2.53
10 84.2% Turk_Jew ( ) + 15.8% Dutch ( ) @ 2.54
11 81.4% Turk_Jew ( ) + 18.6% German-Volga ( ) @ 2.56
12 85.6% Turk_Jew ( ) + 14.4% Irish ( ) @ 2.59
13 84.9% Turk_Jew ( ) + 15.1% Frisian ( ) @ 2.63
14 79.2% Sicilian_Trapani ( ) + 20.8% Palestinian ( ) @ 2.63
15 78.5% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 21.5% Hungarian_Budapest ( ) @ 2.64
16 84.8% Turk_Jew ( ) + 15.2% Belgian ( ) @ 2.65
17 87.7% Turk_Jew ( ) + 12.3% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 2.65
18 88% Turk_Jew ( ) + 12% Icelandic ( ) @ 2.66
19 86.5% Turk_Jew ( ) + 13.5% North_European ( ) @ 2.66
20 85.8% Turk_Jew ( ) + 14.2% English ( ) @ 2.66


Dodecad K12b (Vahaduo) results:

Gedrosia 5.17 Pct
Siberian 0.71 Pct
Northwest_African 5.78 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.16 Pct
Atlantic_Med 25.83 Pct
North_European 13.17 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African 0.59 Pct
Southwest_Asian 12.79 Pct
East_Asian 1.12 Pct
Caucasus 34.66 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

Distance to: David_Pakman
2.49459416 MD_Jewish
2.50942224 Ashkenazi_Jews
3.52122493 Italy_Sicily
3.56246522 Italy_Calabria
4.91401526 Italy_Campania
5.89283361 Italy_Apulia
6.39907053 Italy_Abruzzo
6.58853550 Greek_Crete
8.70280415 Sephardic_Jews
10.05032338 Greek

Target: David_Pakman
Distance: 1.0646% / 1.06461824 | ADC: 0.25x
70.2 Ashkenazi_Jews
13.2 Italy_Sicily
9.6 Italy_Calabria
5.2 Greek
1.6 Mozabite
0.2 Japanese

Target: David_Pakman
Distance: 1.5984% / 1.59844265 | ADC: 0.5x
67.8 Ashkenazi_Jews
19.2 Italy_Sicily
12.2 MD_Jewish
0.8 Mozabite

Target: David_Pakman
Distance: 2.2076% / 2.20757975 | ADC: 1x
46.6 MD_Jewish
42.2 Ashkenazi_Jews
11.2 Italy_Sicily

He is more southern than any guido under the sun.

[RogueState]

Even Larry Page, despite being brunette and more swarthy, doesn't look MENA...

Probably there has been an implicit selection for lighter features in order to strive in Germany/Eastern Europe for Ashkenazi Jews, it seems so far the only explanation to understand this genotype-phenotype gap

I would say - and I am VERY generous - at best, 20% of Ashkenazi Jews could maybe pass in this group of Hezbollah soldiers (meaning 80% cannot at all).
https://s.france24.com/media/display/d7946894-1f8c-11e9-ae04-005056bff430/w:1280/p:16x9/hezb-region.webp

[XenophobicPrussian]

Even Larry Page, despite being brunette and more swarthy, doesn't look MENA...

Probably there has been an implicit selection for lighter features in order to strive in Germany/Eastern Europe for Ashkenazi Jews, it seems so far the only explanation to understand this genotype-phenotype gap

I would say - and I am VERY generous - at best, 20% of Ashkenazi Jews could maybe pass in this group of Hezbollah soldiers (meaning 80% cannot at all).
https://s.france24.com/media/display/d7946894-1f8c-11e9-ae04-005056bff430/w:1280/p:16x9/hezb-region.webp
They're not supposed to look MENA. They're supposed to look intermediary between North Italians and Levantines(with a smidgen of Polish influence too), or like South Italians/Greek Islanders/Maltese, aka MENA influenced.

[RogueState]

How about this one
GEDmatch results of liberal political commentator David Pakman (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?332561-GEDmatch-results-of-liberal-political-commentator-David-Pakman)

He is more southern than any guido under the sun.

Yeah it's mind blowing than him :
https://i.postimg.cc/V6x8d5Wb/Jtmb-ZZL-400x400.jpg

Is more southern than them :
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/ee/b9/22eeb9c3097c4c2ae5b9f0eff1be702f.jpg

[Leto]

Muslim Palestinians and Syrians have post-antiquity influences. Bedouin, Egyptian, even actual African.

[J. Ketch]

Jews allegedly not looking like their genetics is kind of off-topic. The only widespread misinformation about their genetics is the Khazar link, but that hasn't really been a thing for years now. I guess some people still have the idea that they are largely Northern European influenced.

[Immanenz]

How about this one


He is more southern than any guido under the sun.

Sexual selection/ recessive genes showing because there was little gene flow etc. He looks like a light haired version of Jewish porn actor James Deen btw.

[RogueState]

Jews allegedly not looking like their genetics is kind of off-topic. The only widespread misinformation about their genetics is the Khazar link, but that hasn't really been a thing for years now. I guess some people still have the idea that they are more Northern European influenced than they are.

It's not some people, but the vast majority of people think Ashkenazi Jews are just European converts that are not really native to Palestine (this is very popular in the Muslim community).

[XenophobicPrussian]

Muslim Palestinians and Syrians have post-antiquity influences. Bedouin, Egyptian, even actual African.
k, but Armenians, Druze, Samaritans, Assyrians, Kurds, etc don't and they still largely look the same(although I know some MENA person will get mad or disagree heavily with this). Don't go down the "we wuz white kangz" road please, lol.

[Leto]

Yeah it's mind blowing than him :
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/V6x8d5Wb/Jtmb-ZZL-400x400.jpg

Is more southern than them :
[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/ee/b9/22eeb9c3097c4c2ae5b9f0eff1be702f.jpg
Even Luis Figo's daughters still look Spanish or Portuguese, not something more Northern despite them being half Swedish.
https://www.topinfluences.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/69025632_477235542858018_3142421175688631749_n.jpg

[RogueState]

Even Luis Figo's daughters still look Spanish or Portuguese, not something more Northern despite her being half Swedish.
https://www.topinfluences.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/69025632_477235542858018_3142421175688631749_n.jpg

They ended up looking like cute French girls :P (the genetic intermediate also no?)

[Leto]

k, but Armenians, Druze, Samaritans, Assyrians, Kurds, etc don't and they still largely look the same(although I know some MENA person will get mad or disagree heavily with this). Don't go down the "we wuz white kangz" road please, lol.
Well, let me pull out another card - they have little to no Steppe ancestry. Kurds have the most out of the ones you listed but they also have some Southern ("Gedrosia") components.

[Leto]

They ended up looking like cute French girls :P (the genetic intermediate also no?)
Yeah, probably French. They are expected to plot somewhere in the middle of France. Depends on Figo himself (someone was alledging his mother looked mixed) and his wife who is Northern Swedish (might be part Finnish).

[Abriekman]

They're not supposed to look MENA. They're supposed to look intermediary between North Italians and Levantines(with a smidgen of Polish influence too), or like South Italians/Greek Islanders/Maltese, aka MENA influenced.

Ashkenazi Jews have about 5-10% Eastern European (Polish) admixture, about 30% Southern European ( Italian - like) and rest is Near Eastern

[J. Ketch]

It's not some people, but the vast majority of people think Ashkenazi Jews are just European converts that are not really native to Palestine (this is very popular in the Muslim community).
Well they aren't native to Palestine, their ethnogenesis was in Europe. Still I doubt most people think they're just European converts, at least that's not the case in the Anglosphere, many lay people assume they're just Semites, they aren't aware of the European ancestry of Jews as it's not something the Jews like to talk about much.

[RogueState]

Yeah, probably French. They are expected to plot somewhere in the middle of France. Depends on Figo himself (someone was alledging his mother looked mixed) and his wife who is Northern Swedish (might be part Finnish).

I took the average between the Portuguese and Swedish samples of Eurogenes K13, it gives me this :

Distance to: Portuguese+Swedishmix
3.90914313 Pennsylvania_Dutch
3.99254305 France_north-east
4.63338969 France_Alsace
4.80681807 Afrikaner
5.10087247 Dutch_South
5.20728336 Swiss_German2
5.30666562 Swiss_German
5.50358974 German_West
6.54718260 France_Central
7.30580591 German
7.64837238 France_north-west
8.44483274 Swiss_French
8.77781294 French
8.83934387 English_Southeast
9.15399913 Dutch
9.16169744 English_Midlands
9.58428401 English
9.59049529 English_Southwest
10.02197086 Dutch_Central
10.34725084 Austrian
10.43085807 English_North
10.70187367 Welsh
10.85185698 North_German
11.08212976 Dutch_North
11.51009991 Orcadian

[Leto]

Well they aren't native to Palestine, their ethnogenesis was in Europe. Still I doubt most people think they're just European converts, at least that's not the case in the Anglosphere, many lay people assume they're just Semites, they aren't aware of the half European origin of Jews as it's not something the Jews like to talk about much.
In the Anglo sphere particularly many think it's just white people with a specific religion.

I think German Jews are not half European, 40% at most.

[J. Ketch]

In the Anglo sphere particularly many think it's just white people with a specific religion.

I think German Jews are not half European, 40% at most.
Maybe non-whites think that, but most people have been beaten on the head enough times with the anti-semitism card to not delude themselves into thinking it's just a religion, even if they might say something stupid like that for tactical reasons.

Ashkenazi's are German Jews, and they've been modelled as 35-60% European, so half is not an unreasonable estimate, even though I'd already edited that out of my post.

[Leto]

Ashkenazi's are German Jews, and they've been modelled as 35-60% European, so half is not an unreasonable estimate, even though I'd already edited that out of my post.
I was talking about the German Ashkenazim. The Eastern ones (Poland/Russian Empire) score somewhat less East Med. I'd like to see some good and comprehensible G25 models for Jews.

[Luso]

Yeah, probably French. They are expected to plot somewhere in the middle of France. Depends on Figo himself (someone was alledging his mother looked mixed) and his wife who is Northern Swedish (might be part Finnish).

I'm a swarthy mf like him so I wouldn't be surprised if the guy is 100% southern Portuguese, or close to it. My dad's dad side is the swarthy cromagnid (wide jaw) types who would be mistaken as mixed too.. but are actually 100% iberico.

[Faklon]

All Greek islanders are like Eastern Cretans and all Greek mainlanders are like Thessalians who somehow are considered North Greeks albeit Thessaly is regionally in Central Greece.

Greek Macedonia is supposed to be a totally Balkan area when half the people there are refugees from Asia Minor.

Greek refugees from Asia Minor are supposed to be all clustering like Pontics although most people hail from the Western shores and genetically are closer to mainlanders (some coming up like Peloponnesians) than Cretans.

Yamnaya not being Steppe because they came up swarthier than expected and title should belong to some irrelevant EHG culture with no relevant Steppe archaeology.

[Ethel]

Benevento area that shows elevated numbers of germanic Y-DNA (40% I believe)

Do you mind providing source for it? I don't mean to contradict you but I'm also very skeptical this could be the case.

[Samnium]

Do you mind providing source for it? I don't mean to contradict you but I'm also very skeptical this could be the case.

Maybe I exagarated a bit, it's more like 30% Y-DNA, but still very significant.

https://i.imgur.com/LugfKAw.png

I don't know why in the Boattini study, people from Benevento showed consistently less "germanic Y-DNA" but Benevento is bordering Campobasso so it's more or less the same area.

[Cernunnos]

About what was being discussed in the previous pages about Ashkenazis being lighter than Portuguese even if the Portuguese plot northern and score more "Northern" Euro compared to Jews.

Well I believe not only genes don't equate with phenotype as someone already said, also climate plays a role. To give an example, where my parents were raised in the peak of the summer, temperatures can easily pass the 40º celsius mark. I believe the Iberian peninsula is home to the warmest climate in Europe. European Jews mostly living in Central European have lived without those temperatures for millenia, have devoloped a more light skin with time (Jews are known to live in the present day german territory since 321) until the 21st century. Also probably they mixed a bit with local populations specialy with Italians and with Poles/Germans. Most Jews live in New England (except for California probably), which has a very similar temperature to Northern Europe and even gives a Euro vibe, which even facilitated European colonization in that region.

[Ethel]

Maybe I exagarated a bit, it's more like 30% Y-DNA, but still very significant.

https://i.imgur.com/LugfKAw.png

I don't know why in the Boattini study, people from Benevento showed consistently less "germanic Y-DNA" but Benevento is bordering Campobasso so it's more or less the same area.

Interesting.
My subclade (L22+), namely the scandinavian cluster from I1 tree, comes precisely from a town in eastern Benevento province that once belonged to Molise, and it's located a bit closer to Campobasso than to Benevento city itself (it's actually between both cities), so it's most likely derived from Longobards.

Can't say much about their autosomal because I've never seen any Beneventan G25 coordinates or gedmatch kits. It's located in the Samnium region, it should be distinct from Napoli and Salerno and closer to people from Molise and Foggia.

[Ethel]

On the other topic being previously discussed about Ashkenazis being lighter than Portuguese even if the Portuguese plot northern and score more "Northern" Euro compared to Jews.

Well I believe not only genes don't equate with phenotype as someone as already said, also climate plays role. To give an example, where my parents were raised in the peak of the summer temperatures can easily pass the 40º celsius mark. I believe the Iberian peninsula is home to the warmest climate in Europe. European Jews mostly living in Central European have lived without those temperatures have devoloped a more light skin with the time (Jews are known to live in the present day german territory since 321) until the 21st century. Also probably they mixed a bit with local populations specialy with Italians and with Poles/Germans.

It takes a much longer time for the climate to naturally select a population based on its melanin and chances of surviving. At this time, people were already removed from the natural environment that allowed this selection to occur for a long time (they already lived in houses etc.) and that doesn't explain eyes and hair pigmentaton. Instead, it seems phenotype is more influenced by recent genetic inputs in the gene pool (?)

[Samnium]

Interesting.
My subclade (L22+), namely the scandinavian cluster from I1 tree, comes precisely from a town in eastern Benevento province that once belonged to Molise, and it's located a bit closer to Campobasso than to Benevento city itself (it's actually between both cities), so it's most likely derived from Longobards.

Can't say much about their autosomal because I've never seen any Beneventan G25 coordinates or gedmatch kits. It's located in the Samnium region, it should be distinct from Napoli and Salerno and closer to people from Molise and Foggia.

Very interesting. I do agree that people from Benevento wouldn't be similar to Naples or Salerno (Southern Campania) people, definitely not.

Still, I would think that longobard autosomal input would be limited to some percentages. Someone did a model back in time, modelling people from Molise, they didn't showed more than 3-4% Lombard.

[Chris596]

- Hungarians can't have African ancestry
- Every Hungarian has some German ancestry
- Hungarians are a mix of West-North-East-South Europe

B!tch please, look at me. Nobody believed me when I said I think it's possible even for Hungarians to have some SSA ancestry.

[Kamal900]

That the AE's were Blacks even though that's completely untrue since the genetic relations between Egypt and their Levantine neighbors goes waaaay back, even way before the formation of the AE civilization itself, and the reason why Egyptians, both ancient and modern, Arabians and Southern Levantine Muslims can be put together in the same bio-geographic region or cluster is explained here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21920-Autosomal-of-Egyptian-pharaohs&p=729794&viewfull=1#post729794

Both Egyptians and Arabians share common genetic stock from the ancient Levant, and the reason why Palestinian and Jordanian Muslims are close to these two is due to admixtures from them in contrast to Northern Levantine Muslims who are very admixed with West Asiatics like Iranians and so on.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22424-New-Autosomal-data-from-Lebanon-Armenia-Iran-Iraq-Turkey-Cyprus-Jordan-Syr-ia-Ukraine&p=727405&viewfull=1#post727405
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kQtBYwNbU1I/VXheE4Eod1I/AAAAAAAACtM/p7ifqc_PHe8/s1600/28mk2sy.jpg.png

[Abriekman]

Maybe non-whites think that, but most people have been beaten on the head enough times with the anti-semitism card to not delude themselves into thinking it's just a religion, even if they might say something stupid like that for tactical reasons.

Ashkenazi's are German Jews, and they've been modelled as 35-60% European, so half is not an unreasonable estimate, even though I'd already edited that out of my post.

Not true, show me even one model, when they are more than 40% European. 35% Southern European is average, Italian-like, which is not fully European

[Abriekman]

Distance: 0.6277% / 0.00627650
Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
26.8 Possible_Levantine_Antiquity
22.4 Italian_Iron_Age
12.4 Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity
10.3 Possible_North_African_Antiquity
7.3 Possible_Central_Anatolian_Antiquity
6.6 Eastern_European
5.1 Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity
4.3 Iberian_Iron_Age
4.0 Possible_Greek/Western_Anatolian_Antiquity
0.8 Egyptian_Antiquity



Distance: 1.0613% / 0.01061272
Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
19.8 Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity
18.8 Eastern_European
18.0 Italian_Iron_Age
15.2 Possible_Levantine_Antiquity
14.0 Possible_North_African_Antiquity
12.1 Possible_Central_Anatolian_Antiquity
2.1 Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity


Eastern European is CZE_Early_Slav, even not Hun_Avar_Szolad, which is more northern and is Polish-like

[Jana]

Early Czech Slav samples are mixed. They already have some local Celto-Germanic drift.

[Abriekman]

Early Czech Slav samples are mixed. They already have some local Celto-Germanic drift.

True, they are Hungarian and Slovakian-like and even with it those Ashkenazi samples have 6-18% of it, if we choose Avar Szolad instead, percentage will be even smaller, however I do not know which is better for modelling these samples, because I was told CZE_Early_Slav is better for Jews, but I do not understand why, if Ashkenazi have Eastern European admixture, which is only Polish-like

[Jana]

True, they are Hungarian and Slovakian-like and even with it those Ashkenazi samples have 6-18% of it, if we choose Avar Szolad instead, percentage will be even smaller, however I do not know which is better for modelling these samples, because I was told CZE_Early_Slav is better for Jews, but I do not understand why, if Ashkenazi have Eastern European admixture, which is only Polish-like

I wonder too. PS I think early Czech Slav is close to Slovaks yes, but not that close to Hungarians, it is still quite more northern than them if I am not mistaken. I think it cluster with modern Czeho-Slovaks
You can try Sunghir Russia medieval sample to measure EE in Jews, it's good early Slavic sample.

[J. Ketch]

Not true, show me even one model, when they are more than 40% European. 35% Southern European is average, Italian-like, which is not fully European
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Screenshot-2016-07-19-23.03.50.png
https://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-origins-of-ashkenazi-jews-near-resolution/

Not claiming these models below are realistic but you asked for one:

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.2822% / 0.01282198 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
23.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
14.0 GRC_Mycenaean
8.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
7.8 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
4.6 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.1914% / 0.01191446
34.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
19.4 DEU_MA
18.6 GRC_Mycenaean
10.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
7.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
4.4 CZE_Early_Slav
3.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
1.4 ITA_Proto-Villanovan

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.1565% / 0.01156488
53.6 Italian_Piedmont
25.0 Samaritan
21.4 Palestinian

[Abriekman]

https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Screenshot-2016-07-19-23.03.50.png
https://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-origins-of-ashkenazi-jews-near-resolution/

Not claiming these models below are realistic but you asked for one:

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.2822% / 0.01282198 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
23.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
14.0 GRC_Mycenaean
8.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
7.8 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
4.6 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.1914% / 0.01191446
34.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
19.4 DEU_MA
18.6 GRC_Mycenaean
10.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
7.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
4.4 CZE_Early_Slav
3.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
1.4 ITA_Proto-Villanovan

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.1565% / 0.01156488
53.6 Italian_Piedmont
25.0 Samaritan
21.4 Palestinian

I do not see more, than 40% European on these models, except modern one, which I would not pay attention to, see ancient models I posted in this thread

[PopGenetics]

Myth....Germans have Celtic ancestry.
Reality......They have French ancestry and it is from the Middle Ages. (When most of Germany was apart of France)

Myth....British have Viking ancestry.

Myth....Northern Italians have Germanic ancestry.

Myth....(French) Switzerland is Northern European.

[Jana]

Myth....Germans have Celtic ancestry.
Reality......They have French ancestry and it is from the Middle Ages. (When most of Germany was apart of France)

Myth....British have Viking ancestry.

Myth....Northern Italians have Germanic ancestry.

Myth....(French) Switzerland is Northern European.

Except you last statement, all other are utter failure.

[Jana]

[LIST]
'Northern slavs are always more proto-slavic by ancestry than south slavs'.
Incorrect. Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes are more slavic than czechs. The aforementioned SW slavic groups are also more slavic than Russians from certain regions. Serbs are probably as Slavic as Czechs.

I think you're judging by G25 Czech average from my Balto-Slavic scale thread which scored less than half Slavic and around 1/3 Germanic. You shouldn't.
Reason I closed that thread and completely ditched G25 is because David's averages often aren't very good nor most representative. It was already proven with many averages he used (Moldovan,Montenegrin,Macedonian, some south Italians etc)

I don't believe those Czechs are average for Czech Republic. They could be Bohemians, or inhabitants of Prague where German admixture is stronger. I know for a fact lot of Prague Germans remained in the city after WW2 because many were loyal to Czech government and they totally assimilated, similar like in Budapest. In any case I think Czechs are more Slavic than 40%.

Here is K13 Czech average which looks very decent, it shows similar amount of early Slav admixture like some south Slav groups.

Distance: 0.4467% / 0.44665203
Target: Czech

61.5 Slavic
27.3 Germanic
11.2 Vlach

Distance: 0.8359% / 0.83594456
Target: Slovenian

58.8 Slavic
24.4 Vlach
16.8 Germanic

Distance: 0.6048% / 0.60476899
Target: Croat

61.7 Slavic
33.1 Vlach
5.2 Germanic

Distance: 0.4197% / 0.41970325
Target: Bosniak

63.1 Slavic
36.9 Vlach

Distance: 0.7135% / 0.71348260
Target: Serb

55.9 Slavic
44.1 Vlach

Here are 3 Czechs we have from TA, one of them looks to have recent German ancestry (idk how much) but even he is around 50% Slavic mark. We don't know where they are from, as Moravians and Silesians should be more Slavic than Bohemians, but none of them is 40% Slavic like Czech G25 average scored in my old models.

Distance: 2.3342% / 2.33415528
Target: Karol_friend(Czech)

62.1 Slavic
26.0 Germanic
11.9 Vlach

Distance: 1.8057% / 1.80570664
Target: Natalie(Czech)

64.7 Slavic
26.4 Germanic
8.9 Vlach

Distance: 3.6707% / 3.67069439
Target: Adamg(Czech+German)

49.6 Slavic
32.0 Germanic
18.4 Vlach

Natalie scores in 65% Slavic range, same like me, just switch our Vlach and Germanic input as well, she is similarly Germanic as I am SE Euro.
I would say Czechs have comparable levels of early Slavic ancestry to west South Slavs except for Montenegrins, who have less.

PS: I don't think their "Vlach" is real. I just used my model primarly designed for SE Euros. Some Vlachs settled in Moravia, but I think most of Czech southern admix comes from local source and not Balkans. Germans they mixed with were not northern Germans so those had some Med like admixture too, maybe local Kelts had it as well.

[Mopi The Dire Wolf]

Myth....Germans have Celtic ancestry.
Reality......They have French ancestry and it is from the Middle Ages. (When most of Germany was apart of France)

Myth....British have Viking ancestry.

Myth....Northern Italians have Germanic ancestry.

Myth....(French) Switzerland is Northern European.

brits do have viking ancestry...in places such as the north of england which was under Danelaw for centuries....The Viking settlers mixed with the native population

my mtDNA haplogroup is probably Scandinavian in origin

[Loki]

Myth....Germans have Celtic ancestry.
Reality......They have French ancestry and it is from the Middle Ages. (When most of Germany was apart of France)

Myth....British have Viking ancestry.

Myth....Northern Italians have Germanic ancestry.

Myth....(French) Switzerland is Northern European.

Are you for real? Do you know the difference between Frankish and French? Because you should. Almost everything you wrote here is misleading nonsense.

[J. Ketch]

Myth....Germans have Celtic ancestry.
Reality......They have French ancestry and it is from the Middle Ages. (When most of Germany was apart of France)

Myth....British have Viking ancestry.

Myth....Northern Italians have Germanic ancestry.

Myth....(French) Switzerland is Northern European.
Damn, banned already. Genetic misconceptions are no laughing matter.

I was looking forward to you defending these points.

[mitalit]

It takes a much longer time for the climate to naturally select a population based on its melanin and chances of surviving. At this time, people were already removed from the natural environment that allowed this selection to occur for a long time (they already lived in houses etc.) and that doesn't explain eyes and hair pigmentaton. Instead, it seems phenotype is more influenced by recent genetic inputs in the gene pool (?)
However the ashkenazi jews were a very inbred population with a very small base of people. That could speed up the process a lot.

[Damião de Góis]

Yeah it's mind blowing than him :
https://i.postimg.cc/V6x8d5Wb/Jtmb-ZZL-400x400.jpg

Is more southern than them :
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/ee/b9/22eeb9c3097c4c2ae5b9f0eff1be702f.jpg

It's as mind blowing as these two portuguese people (or two light and dark people of any ethnicity) having the same results.

https://www.iol.pt/multimedia/oratvi/multimedia/imagem/id/13258903/


About what was being discussed in the previous pages about Ashkenazis being lighter than Portuguese even if the Portuguese plot northern and score more "Northern" Euro compared to Jews.

Well I believe not only genes don't equate with phenotype as someone already said, also climate plays a role. To give an example, where my parents were raised in the peak of the summer, temperatures can easily pass the 40º celsius mark. I believe the Iberian peninsula is home to the warmest climate in Europe. European Jews mostly living in Central European have lived without those temperatures for millenia, have devoloped a more light skin with time (Jews are known to live in the present day german territory since 321) until the 21st century. Also probably they mixed a bit with local populations specialy with Italians and with Poles/Germans. Most Jews live in New England (except for California probably), which has a very similar temperature to Northern Europe and even gives a Euro vibe, which even facilitated European colonization in that region.

So how do you explain Asturians and Andalusians not having significant pigmentation differences despite both regions having very different climate, summer temperatures, sunlight hours, etc.

[Chris596]

There is no such thing as Hungarian gene.

[Kivan]

Turks from inland Anatolia (not counting Turkmens and Tatars) have more Asian/Turkic genes/admixture.

Turks from Western Coast are assimilated/Turkified Europeans.

[Beers]

Yeah it's mind blowing than him :
https://i.postimg.cc/V6x8d5Wb/Jtmb-ZZL-400x400.jpg

Is more southern than them :
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/ee/b9/22eeb9c3097c4c2ae5b9f0eff1be702f.jpg
Not really "mind-blowing" considering that what you see on charts is population averages.
Induvial Ashkenazim plot with ancestry shifting them close towards Central Italy/Central Greece and even not at all far from Southern Albania.
Conversely Iberians have pockets of substantial Sub Saharan African ancestry that can and does have a strong effect on the phenotype of individuals.
You posted one Ashkenazi and 2 Spaniards/Portuguese?
This is not a population average of those groups.

Phenotype does not=genotype, climate also plays a huge role in that.
Southern Spain is 8 nautical miles from Morocco, and it has a similar climate, it's not unreasonable for people in Spain particularly as you go south to have physically adapted to this hot climate by producing more melanin.

Jews have lived in Europe for over 2400 years and many in climates that are quite cold, natural selection for lighter skin and a higher rate of light eyes is the norm under such conditions.

[Leto]

I googled more pictures of Rui Costa out of curiosity, this is him in 2020
https://cdn.record.pt/images/2020-08/img_920x518$2020_08_22_22_00_07_1744115.jpg
https://footballelements.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/ruicosta.png

[Babak]

I'd say it'd would be Iranians, Turks, and Arabs.

[Damião de Góis]

Not really "mind-blowing" considering that what you see on charts is population averages.
Induvial Ashkenazim plot with ancestry shifting them close towards Central Italy/Central Greece and even not at all far from Southern Albania.
Conversely Iberians have pockets of substantial Sub Saharan African ancestry that can and does have a strong effect on the phenotype of individuals.
You posted one Ashkenazi and 2 Spaniards?
This is not a population average of those groups.



Phenotype does not=genotype, climate also plays a huge role in that.
Southern Spain is 8 nautical miles from Morocco, and it has a similar climate, it's not unreasonable for people in Spain particularly as you go south to have physically adapted to this hot climate by producing more melanin.

Jews have lived in Europe for over 2400 years and many in climates that are quite cold, natural selection for lighter skin and a higher rate of light eyes is the norm under such conditions.

This whole post fits this thread nicely.

1) Iberians having substantial sub saharan ancestry

2) Ashkenazis plotting close to central Italians/Greeks

3) Southern spanish people being "phenotypically adapted to climate" due to proximity to Morocco

[RogueState]

I googled more pictures of Rui Costa out of curiosity, this is him in 2020
https://cdn.record.pt/images/2020-08/img_920x518$2020_08_22_22_00_07_1744115.jpg
https://footballelements.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/ruicosta.png

Still one of the best playmaker in football history, I was always a fan of him, pure elegance and talent

[Beers]

This whole post fits this thread nicely.

1) Iberians having substantial sub saharan ancestry

2) Ashkenazis plotting close to central Italians/Greeks

3) Southern spanish people being "phenotypically adapted to climate" due to proximity to Morocco

No, that is an incorrect spin of my post and quite dishonest.

Never said all or even most Iberians have substantial Sub Saharan ancestry...

Conversely Iberians have pockets of substantial Sub Saharan African ancestry that can and does have a strong effect on the phenotype of individuals.
This is absolutely a fact, especially regionally in Portugal, and it's NOT the AVERAGE at all for Iberians.


Ashkenazis plotting close to central Italians/Greeks
Another lie, I said:

Induvial Ashkenazim plot with ancestry shifting them close towards Central Italy/Central Greece and even not at all far from Southern Albania.
Shame on you, you should apply for a job at CNN.

[Damião de Góis]

No, that is an incorrect spin of my post and quite dishonest.

Never said all or even most Iberians have substantial Sub Saharan ancestry...

This is absolutely a fact, especially regionally in Portugal, and it's NOT the AVERAGE at all for Iberians.

Ah so it's only Portugal that has substantial Sub Saharan ancestry? How much is this substantial Sub Saharan ancestry?



Another lie, I said:

Shame on you, you should apply for a job at CNN.

They shift towards South Italians and Greek Islanders last time i checked.

[Dick]

Ironically Serbs have highest Germanic(or Celtic perhaps)ydna in Balkans but our enemies claim we are rape spawns of Turks.

[Peterski]

Myth....Germans have Celtic ancestry.
Reality......They have French ancestry and it is from the Middle Ages. (When most of Germany was a part of France)

Hence "French&German" category in 23andMe.

[Trouble]

That steppe, CHG, or any other singular ancient component correlates directly to how light or dark a person is. Yes, it's true that Scandinavians and Celts are the most proto-Indo European people on the planet, and they also happen to be the lightest in the world. But early Indo European cultures like Corded Ware, Andronovo, Fatyanovo, etc were over 70% steppe, more than any modern Europeans, yet their alleles for light skin were a lot closer to southern Europeans than northern Europeans.

[Cristiano viejo]

Conversely Iberians have pockets of substantial Sub Saharan African ancestry that can and does have a strong effect on the phenotype of individuals.
You posted one Ashkenazi and 2 Spaniards/Portuguese?
This is not a population average of those groups.

Phenotype does not=genotype, climate also plays a huge role in that.
Southern Spain is 8 nautical miles from Morocco, and it has a similar climate, it's not unreasonable for people in Spain particularly as you go south to have physically adapted to this hot climate by producing more melanin.



You seem very retard claiming Iberians have Sub Saharan blood but even more retard when you claim this affects some phenotypes :laugh2:

The final joke is thinking South Spaniards look like Moroccans because "some" Andalusians live near "some" Moroccans :lol: ok then Greeks look like Turks, Americans like Mexicans etc.

All this is hilarious coming from a Greek, no comment about Greek and Spanish genetic.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Hence "French&German" category in 23andMe.Croats seem to have more, sometimes... Western shifted.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

[17571imre]

that you inherit exactly the half of each segment from your parents