Slavic world (national averages) PCA

[Jana]

Red - West Slavs
White - East Slavs
Blue - South Slavs

Click on the image to enlarge.

https://i.imgur.com/brcAe8D.png

[Ion Basescul]

Red - West Slavs
White - East Slavs
Blue - South Slavs

Click on the image to enlarge.

https://i.imgur.com/brcAe8D.png

See those "PCA1", "PCA2" on the y and x axes. You can flip them to rotate the image.

[Dušan]

Nice.

If you use this https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/, you have options to turn sides for orientation. So north will be up, south down, west on left side, and east on right side.

[Ion Basescul]

See those "PCA1", "PCA2" on the y and x axes. You can flip them to rotate the image.

Something like this

https://i.ibb.co/2YHnJgT/image.png

[Peterski]

Some Bosniaks are close to me!:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDRdahhbrQM

[Jana]

See those "PCA1", "PCA2" on the y and x axes. You can flip them to rotate the image.


Nice.

If you use this https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/, you have options to turn sides for orientation. So north will be up, south down, west on left side, and east on right side.

Like this?

https://i.imgur.com/dZpZl0e.png

I put west on the right instead of left though, sorry :o

[Dušan]

Could you post values here? :)

[Peterski]

^^^
If Polish average is more northeastern than Ukrainians, it means it is not representative (too many NE Poles who are close to Belarusians).

[Jana]

Could you post values here? :)


Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44,0.97,0 .18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Bosniak,24.88,32.47,15.40,8.91,13.89,1.77,0.79,0.5 1,0.57,0.47,0.26,0.02,0.06
Bulgarian,21.80,24.15,17.82,11.65,19.51,2.40,0.53, 0.42,0.77,0.38,0.33,0.11,0.08
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10
Czech,33.53,37.14,12.43,5.94,7,0.9,1.18,0.14,0.66, 0.59,0.26,0.19,0.13
Macedonian,22.14,21.76,19.68,10.90,21.19,2.43,0.22 ,0.39,0.48,0.28,0.40,0.05,0.07
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06
Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.96,0.11, 0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Pomak,19.91,25.54,17.54,12.24,20.19,2.63,0.09,0.69 ,0.47,0.30,0.17,0.19,0.05
Russian,26.03,47.50,8.65,5.49,2.99,0.68,1.32,0.45, 4.75,1.23,0.46,0.15,0.31
Rusyn,26.18,38.44,13.89,5.43,11.20,1.12,1.13,0.20, 1.35,0.50,0.20,0.16,0.21
Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05
Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21
Slovene,31.53,34.36,14.60,6.52,9.66,1.01,0.64,0.32 ,0.30,0.43,0.39,0.12,0.12
Sorb,33.21,41.31,10.56,4.96,6.56,0.56,1.15,0.46,0. 26,0.59,0.16,0.10,0.12
Torbesh,21.55,17.67,22.34,10.48,23.69,2.25,0.00,0. 51,0.48,0.79,0.25,0.00,0.00
Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16,1.09,0. 91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07

[Jana]

^^^
If Polish average is more northeastern than Ukrainians, it means it is not representative (too many NE Poles who are close to Belarusians).

It is not, Polish average is more NW than Ukrainians.

[Peterski]

It is not, Polish average is more NW than Ukrainians.

It is closer to Russians in the image you posted.

[Jana]

It is closer to Russians in the image you posted.

No, it is more western.

https://i.imgur.com/brcAe8D.png

closer to bottom = more western, as I clearly indicated by putting W.

[Faklon]

Where are these Rusyns from? Do all Rusyns cluster similarly?

They seem to be at the core of Slavic diversity.

[Dušan]

Like this?

https://i.imgur.com/dZpZl0e.png



You got deformation north-south (it looks like snake)
I got deformation east-west. Too large distance :p

https://i.imgur.com/5bOCoW3.png

[Jana]

Where are these Rusyns from? Do all Rusyns cluster similarly?

They seem to be at the core of Slavic diversity.

From SW Ukraine, Ion made that average. These are Ukrainised btw, but genetically clearly different from proper Ukrainians.

[Leto]

Torbeshis are the ultimate Westerners :cool:

[Leto]

Where are these Rusyns from? Do all Rusyns cluster similarly?

They seem to be at the core of Slavic diversity.


From SW Ukraine, Ion made that average. Thise are Ukrainised btw, but genetically clearly different from proper Ukrainians.
What Ion did is called "Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk", not Rusyn.

[Dušan]

Okay, I think it looks correct now.

https://i.imgur.com/O6qL0at.png

[Jana]

What Ion did is called "Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk", not Rusyn.

So what? They have nothing do do with Ukrainians genetically. I have no interest in their political identity. Ukrainisation of Rusyns is well known fact.

[Jana]

Okay, I think it looks correct now.

https://i.imgur.com/O6qL0at.png

Makes sense how Bulgarians often look like dark Ukrainians, they plot equally eastern just very different in north/south.

Interesting how Pomaks are second most eastern shifted Slavic group after Russians.

[Slavic Italian]

I'm half Slav now.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.77
2 North_and_East_European 36.47
3 Caucaus_Parsia 10.24
4 Middle_East 9.30
5 Indian 2.75
6 Mesoamerican 1.19


Finished reading population data. 257 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bosnian @ 5.780862
2 Croatian @ 7.006052
3 Hungarian @ 7.798745
4 Croatian_V @ 8.053303
5 Serbian @ 8.775086
6 Slovenian @ 9.687315
7 Macedonian @ 10.154186
8 Austrian @ 10.173773
9 Latvian_V @ 10.293662
10 German_V @ 10.855593
11 Montenegrin @ 11.129009
12 Czech @ 11.204206
13 German @ 11.324825
14 Slovakian @ 12.089224
15 CEU_V @ 12.287197
16 Bulgarian @ 12.309251
17 German-South @ 12.430126
18 German-North @ 12.954919
19 Ukrainian-West @ 13.370124
20 Ukrainian_V @ 13.969119

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Russian +50% Greek_South @ 2.511369


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Russian +25% Romania +25% Ashkenazim @ 2.158708


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++
1 Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim + Sorb @ 1.888034
2 Romania + Ashkenazim + Polish_V + Lithuanian @ 1.947568
3 Romania + Ukrainian-East + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 1.979477
4 Estonian + Romania + Ashkenazim + Sorb @ 1.990086
5 Belarusian_V + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.010902
6 Ukrainian + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.023428
7 Russian + Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian @ 2.025848
8 Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian + Sorb @ 2.028177
9 Polish + Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian @ 2.032297
10 Russian_South + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.033522
11 Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian + Belarusian @ 2.038136
12 Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim + Ukrainian-Center @ 2.039306
13 Belarusian_V + Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim @ 2.043031
14 Croatian_V + Jew_Romania + Romania + Latvian @ 2.043144
15 Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim + Polish_V @ 2.048723
16 Russian_cossack + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.053321
17 Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian + Ukrainian-Center @ 2.061800
18 Russian_Center + Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian @ 2.061802
19 Croatian_V + Estonian + Jew_Romania + Romania @ 2.062812
20 Romania + Ukrainian-East + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian_V @ 2.064347

[Jana]

I'm half Slav now.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.77
2 North_and_East_European 36.47
3 Caucaus_Parsia 10.24
4 Middle_East 9.30
5 Indian 2.75
6 Mesoamerican 1.19


Finished reading population data. 257 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bosnian @ 5.780862
2 Croatian @ 7.006052
3 Hungarian @ 7.798745
4 Croatian_V @ 8.053303
5 Serbian @ 8.775086
6 Slovenian @ 9.687315
7 Macedonian @ 10.154186
8 Austrian @ 10.173773
9 Latvian_V @ 10.293662
10 German_V @ 10.855593
11 Montenegrin @ 11.129009
12 Czech @ 11.204206
13 German @ 11.324825
14 Slovakian @ 12.089224
15 CEU_V @ 12.287197
16 Bulgarian @ 12.309251
17 German-South @ 12.430126
18 German-North @ 12.954919
19 Ukrainian-West @ 13.370124
20 Ukrainian_V @ 13.969119

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Russian +50% Greek_South @ 2.511369


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Russian +25% Romania +25% Ashkenazim @ 2.158708


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++
1 Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim + Sorb @ 1.888034
2 Romania + Ashkenazim + Polish_V + Lithuanian @ 1.947568
3 Romania + Ukrainian-East + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 1.979477
4 Estonian + Romania + Ashkenazim + Sorb @ 1.990086
5 Belarusian_V + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.010902
6 Ukrainian + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.023428
7 Russian + Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian @ 2.025848
8 Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian + Sorb @ 2.028177
9 Polish + Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian @ 2.032297
10 Russian_South + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.033522
11 Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian + Belarusian @ 2.038136
12 Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim + Ukrainian-Center @ 2.039306
13 Belarusian_V + Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim @ 2.043031
14 Croatian_V + Jew_Romania + Romania + Latvian @ 2.043144
15 Romania + Latvian + Ashkenazim + Polish_V @ 2.048723
16 Russian_cossack + Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian @ 2.053321
17 Romania + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian + Ukrainian-Center @ 2.061800
18 Russian_Center + Romania + Ashkenazim + Belarusian @ 2.061802
19 Croatian_V + Estonian + Jew_Romania + Romania @ 2.062812
20 Romania + Ukrainian-East + Ashkenazim + Lithuanian_V @ 2.064347

Horrible and innacurate calculator. You are quater Slavic. Also this isn't a topic for that.

[Slavic Italian]

Horrible and innacurate calculator. You are quater Slavic. Also this isn'a topic for this.

I am more Slavic than you and the stronger Slavic ethnicities at that.

[Leto]

So what? They have nothing do do with Ukrainians genetically. I have no interest in their political identity. Ukrainisation of Rusyns is well known fact.
It's not only political. They are not recorded as Rusyn now. In fact those parts of Ukraine have some of the most staunch Ukrainian nationalists like the Svoboda party. All Ukrainians were once called Rusyn, ruski, etc., don't get me wrong. But now they don't identify as such. The Russo-Ukrainian flame can be continued ad nauseam just like the Serbo-Croatian one.

Torbeshi and Pomaks are Macedonians and Bulgarians then because it's a religious identity.

[Jana]

I am more Slavic than you and the stronger Slavic ethnicities at that.

You are quater Slavic, and you should leave this thread.

[Jana]

It's not only political. They are not recorded as Rusyn now. In fact those parts of Ukraine have some of the most staunch Ukrainian nationalists like the Svoboda party. All Ukrainians were once called Rusyn, ruski, etc., don't get me wrong. But now they don't identify as such. The Russo-Ukrainian flame can be continued ad nauseam just like the Serbo-Croatian one.

Torbeshi and Pomaks are Macedonians and Bulgarians then because it's a religious identity.

There is no other average we could use for Rusyns. If there was I would use that one. I think those from Slovakia will be more northern shifted a bit.

[Scandal]

I am more Slavic than you and the stronger Slavic ethnicities at that.

Your north atlantic to baltic ratio on k13 is un-slavic and western leaning. 50-60% of your ancestry in German and/or other Nw euro, 25% is southern italian, 25% is slav judging by how your k13 vahaduo result looks. You're far less slavic than Stearsolina with your low baltic and high north atlantic score.

[Scandal]

There is no other average we could use for Rusyns. If there was I would use that one. I think those from Slovakia will be more northern shifted a bit.

This is Madonna's father, he's Rusyn from eastern slovakia
Madonna_father(rusyn),28.95,38.38,13.31,6.95,8.75, 0.28,0,0.52,0,1.69,1.18,0,0

[Leto]

There is no other average we could use for Rusyns. If there was I would use that one. I think those from Slovakia will be more northern shifted a bit.
And Vojvodina Rusyns are probably like Maramures Ukrainians (there are three relatives from there on Gedmatch, Ion knows them).

[Leto]

Your north atlantic to baltic ratio on k13 is un-slavic and western leaning. 50-60% of your ancestry in German and/or other Nw euro, 25% is southern italian, 25% is slav. You're far less slavic than Stearsolina with your low baltic and high north atlantic score.
Not to mention that son of a gun is cultually zero Slavic. About as Slavic as African Americans are North European.

[Ion Basescul]

Like this?

https://i.imgur.com/dZpZl0e.png

I put west on the right instead of left though, sorry :o

Kind of, someone probably answered in the meanwhile, but I simply pressed plus on X to get PC2 and minus on Y for PC1. Then, I also pressed "Flip" on X.

https://i.ibb.co/QKg21yN/image.png

To get the fonts bigger like in mine, you need to simply press "Ctrl" + "+" to zoom in.

You can also change the PC coordinates for different views, like what you did above.

[Ion Basescul]

And Vojvodina Rusyns are probably like Maramures Ukrainians (there are three relatives from there on Gedmatch, Ion knows them).

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?319438-Transylvanian-Romanian-GEDmatch-Results&p=7046482&viewfull=1#post7046482

[Peterski]

Okay, I think it looks correct now.

https://i.imgur.com/O6qL0at.png

Is this based on Global25 or GEDmatch?

[Dušan]

Is this based on Global25 or GEDmatch?

Updated K13
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?339225-Slavic-world-(national-averages)-PCA&p=7049340&viewfull=1#post7049340

[Slavic Italian]

Your north atlantic to baltic ratio on k13 is un-slavic and western leaning. 50-60% of your ancestry in German and/or other Nw euro, 25% is southern italian, 25% is slav judging by how your k13 vahaduo result looks. You're far less slavic than Stearsolina with your low baltic and high north atlantic score.

So MDLP World results don't matter?

[Slavic Italian]

Not to mention that son of a gun is cultually zero Slavic. About as Slavic as African Americans are North European.

But this does not lessen my love for you. I'm glad I am not in Eastern Europe. It will be another half century before you are modern. You won't get to experience it. Too bad for you.

[Leto]

But this does not lessen my love for you. I'm glad I am not in Eastern Europe. It will be another half century before you are modern. You won't get to experience it. Too bad for you.
I'm not a damn fag, so get the fuck out of my face!

[Slavic Italian]

I'm not a damn fag, so get the fuck out of my face!

Sure you are. You always act like a bitch.

[Leto]

Sure you are. You always act like a bitch.
Why are you ruining other people's threads? I'd prolly pay to get your ass banned among a few other mofos.

[Slavic Italian]

Why are you ruining other people's threads? I'd prolly pay to get your ass banned among a few other mofos.

You have control issues. You are the one who made the comment when you could have kept it to yourself.

[Leto]

You have control issues. You are the one who made the comment when you could have kept it to yourself.
Well, I'm openly against you but if you stop mentioning me I can pretend you don't exist.

[Slavic Italian]

Well, I'm openly against you but if you stop mentioning me I can pretend you don't exist.

Makes no difference to me. That being said most East Slavs are much more mild mannered than you are. Hmmmm...

[Faklon]

Slavic Italian is like Sikeliot but male

[Leto]

Slavic Italian is like Sikeliot but male
Sikeliot has more Slavic ancestry, he just chose to disregard it because he "doesn't look it".

[Jana]

This is Madonna's father, he's Rusyn from eastern slovakia
Madonna_father(rusyn),28.95,38.38,13.31,6.95,8.75, 0.28,0,0.52,0,1.69,1.18,0,0

He plots nearly half way between Ukrainian Rusyns ("SW Ukrainians") and Slovaks. And not really more northern (just a bit), rather more western as expected due to geography.

https://i.ibb.co/CHfPLm6/ui.png

[Slavic Italian]

Slavic Italian is like Sikeliot but male

He was a good poster.

[Abriekman]

Red - West Slavs
White - East Slavs
Blue - South Slavs

Click on the image to enlarge.

https://i.imgur.com/brcAe8D.png

Interesting, Torbeshi are Albanians genetically, I thought they are Macedonians

[Jana]

Interesting, Torbeshi are Albanians genetically, I thought they are Macedonians

They are Macedonian (Slavic-speaking) muslims with own ethnic identity. But yes, they are close to Albanians. Maybe they mixed with them more than Christian Macedonians due to Islam? They have around 25% early Slavic ancestry on average, lowest from all Slavic ethnicities.

[gixajo]

Could be interesting for all of you make G25 averages and label them with these names?

[gixajo]

Maybe blue group divided in 2 different references(Slovenia+Croatia+Serbia+Bosnia) and the other 5 in a different reference?

[Jana]

Could be interesting for all of you make G25 averages and label them with these names?

I don't use G25, it has bad/inacurate references.

[Crn Volk]

They are Macedonian (Slavic-speaking) muslims with own ethnic identity. But yes, they are close to Albanians. Maybe they mixed with them more than Christian Macedonians due to Islam? They have around 25% early Slavic ancestry on average, lowest from all Slavic ethnicities.

They live in heavily Albanian areas so yes, more mixed.

[gixajo]

I don't use G25, it has bad/inacurate references.



Anyway, I don´t want to argue about this issue, simply maybe other people with slav ancestry want to use them.

So...regardless of how bad the g25 references are, would you make 3 references with the three groups you posted or would you separate the blue group in two?

[Jana]

Anyway, I don´t want to argue about this issue, simply maybe other people with slav ancestry want to use them.

So...regardless of how bad the g25 references are, would you make 3 references with the three groups you posted or would you separate the blue group in two?

Hard to say, even west and east Slavs aren't homogenous let alone south Slavs. I see no value in lumping them together. Happy Christmas!

[vbnetkhio]

Hard to say, even west and east Slavs aren't homogenous let alone south Slavs. I see no value in lumping them together. Happy Christmas!

maybe we could make updated g25 averages for vahaduo. remove the outliers and add some tested member results.

[Scandal]

So MDLP World results don't matter?

Why MDLP world? Barely anyone use that calculator. The forum uses mostly k13 and k15 to a lesser extent because they're considered the most accurate for europeans.

MDLP world isn't reliable at picking up east-west differences in Europeans, it shifts a lot of western euros eastwards. I have seen Brits get Czech/Slovenian, Irish get German, French get Austrian

Look at the results posted in these threads:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?173189-MDLP-World&p=3640665&viewfull=1#post3640665
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?300655-MDLP-World-Fresh-Thread&p=6236000&viewfull=1#post6236000

So as you see, the calculator isn't trustworthy at all, especially for people who have NW euro ancestry.

K13 has a reputation of being one of the most accurate calculators(for europeans). K13 clearly shows you are 50% or over 50% NW euro, with the rest being split between slavic and Italian or jewish.

What's your ancestry on paper? Why do you insist you're this and that slavic? and no, you aren't genetically more slavic than Stearsolina and other Croatians.

[Scandal]

Slavic-Italian(White-American),35.00,25.90,13.08,6.48,13.78,1.52,1.10,0 ,0,1.02,0,1.24,0
Distance: 2.1999% / 2.19988486
Target: Slavic-Italian(White-American) | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.6 German
25.9 Croat_West
9.5 Moldova_Jewish
4.0 Yemenite_Jewish

[gixajo]

I hope they can be useful for someone, you can consider it as a Christmas gift, although I do not know if Slavs who have Orthodox religion celebrate Christmas the same day.

As nobody told me which references to use exactly, I used the ones I thought convenient.

SouthSlavs:A,=Bulgarian,+Macedonian+Montenegrin,+S erbian,
SouthSlavs:B,=Bosnian,+Slovenian+Croatian,
WestSlavs,=Slovakian,+Czech,+Sorb
EastSlavs=Ukrainian,+Belarusian,+Russian:Average,


WestSlavs,0.13083253,0.13257583,0.06393263,0.05186 387,0.04355847,0.02004737,0.00813137,0.00917937,-0.00021513,-0.0125844,-0.00190447,-0.0047957,0.00966743,0.01336493,-0.00527303,0.00378063,0.00692237,-0.0020336,0.00534577,0.00037327,-0.00278487,-0.0032607,0.00628747,0.00046673,0.00029943
SouthSlavs:B,0.128658,0.13465917,0.05101183,0.0300 4977,0.033996,0.0116855,0.00579677,0.00630737,0.00 084527,-0.00407607,-0.00130447,-0.00248283,0.00417243,0.01473943,-0.00926957,-0.00113143,0.0032118,0.00002097,0.0048185,0.000375 17,-0.0047584,-0.00288527,0.00444933,-0.00061453,0.0002434
SouthSlavs:A,0.1250545,0.13971905,0.0305778,0.0076 3193,0.027001,0.00155333,0.00554245,0.00476,0.0001 2598,0.00465423,-0.00395945,-0.000665,0.00005795,0.00793225,-0.01335348,-0.0002289,0.007342,-0.0004797,0.00419898,-0.00401335,-0.00700175,-0.00016293,0.00604213,0.00054485,-0.00237048
EastSlavs,0.13110431,0.11763734,0.07341818,0.06478 55,0.03671159,0.02370792,0.01006237,0.01250553,-0.00191971,-0.02423996,-0.00119792,-0.00848045,0.01755289,0.02307776,-0.01113138,-0.00234733,0.00157707,-0.00040321,0.00227575,0.00061325,-0.00318826,-0.00403915,0.0065158,-0.00489765,0.00012783

The Russian_Average I did is this:

Russian_Average=Russian_Kostroma,+Russian_Kursk,+R ussian_Orel,+Russian_Pinega,+Russian_Smolensk,+Rus sian_Tver,+Russian_Voronez,



Russian:Average,0.13012314,0.10520141,0.07688203,0 .06720569,0.03221497,0.02326107,0.0106899,0.012886 79,-0.00259543,-0.02701829,0.00073463,-0.00857006,0.01797647,0.02036957,-0.01089404,-0.00214459,0.0010056,-0.00088284,0.00008864,0.00118996,-0.00083169,-0.00403036,0.00508519,-0.00377504,-0.0010328


I was tempted to do a Ukrania + Ukranian_Cossack reference, but in the end I used the original Ukrainian reference from the datasheet.

PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/Fg7HhVu.png

[Jana]

Distance: 2.1999% / 2.19988486
Target: Slavic-Italian(White-American) | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.6 German
25.9 Croat_West
9.5 Moldova_Jewish
4.0 Yemenite_Jewish

Yeah, he is less than 25% early Slavic because his 1/4 Slav side wasn't 100% early Slav.
Croats_West are around 55%-60% Slavic from what I remember (lowest from all Croatian regions). Some of his Slav went to German though.

But conclusion is that his early Slavic ancestry is quite low and below 25%.

[Scandal]

Yeah, he is less than 25% early Slavic because his 1/4 Slav side wasn't 100% early Slav.
Croats_West are around 55%-60% Slavic from what I remember (lowest from all Croatian regions). Some of his Slav went to German though.

But conclusion is that his early Slavic ancestry is quite low and below 25%.

Removed German and Austrians from the source

Distance: 1.9772% / 1.97718943
Target: Slavic-Italian(White-American) | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.6 Swedish
33.9 Croat_West
19.8 Swiss_German
9.9 Lebanese_Druze
1.8 Yemenite_Jewish

He's western leaning, that can be seen from his 35% north_atlantic and 25% baltic scores alone.

[Jana]

Removed German and Austrians from the source

Distance: 1.9772% / 1.97718943
Target: Slavic-Italian(White-American) | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.6 Swedish
33.9 Croat_West
19.8 Swiss_German
9.9 Lebanese_Druze
1.8 Yemenite_Jewish

He's western leaning, that can be seen from his 35% north_atlantic and 25% baltic scores alone.

I checked Croat_West average, they are cca. 56% early Slavic. So if he scores 35% of that, his early Slavic is rather low and around 20% max. What a funny clown.

[Scandal]

I checked Croat_West average, they are cca. 56% early Slavic. So if he scores 35% of that, his early Slavic is rather low and around 20% max. What a funny clown.

I think he knows his ancestry, but he probably wants to troll here or something by posting his MDLP world - an unreliable calculator where fully British persons can get Czech and Slovenian first. Let's wait his reaction now.

[Scandal]

I read a couple of his old threads because I've grown curious about him

It seems he doesn't know his ancestry well.

'My paternal family thought they were full blooded Italian. So much for that. With my Y Chromosome being R1A1A I am assuming Slavic origin??? My most recent paternal ancestry from Calabria, Italy. Thoughts or insights appreciated. I'm actually pleased with the diversity.'
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?191656-My-results

In any case Slavic-Italian your results indicate majority of your ancestry is Western Euro.

[Kaspias]

Torbeshi and Pomaks are Macedonians and Bulgarians then because it's a religious identity.

The situation of Pomaks actually kind of confusing, but I will try to explain.

There are two groups of Pomaks: One group of Pomaks are historical Bogomils while another group is directly Bulgarian converts. As a result, there are two different terms that cover them: Ahriyan and Pomak. Yet Pomaks as a whole only known under the Pomak meta term.

Some villages in Bulgaria identify as Muslim Bulgarian and acknowledge the Pomak name as an insult. On the other hand, some other villages think Muslim Bulgarian is an insult.

I do not believe there is a clear border between the two groups, but with a simple generalization:

Blue: Pre-Ottoman Bogomil Pomaks
Red: Muslim Bulgarians

https://i.ibb.co/8gvqjXq/xxx.png

Pomaks are the ones who converted Bulgarians who live near them into Islam and that's why they called Pomaks(means "Helper"). The Pomak language is a kind of archaic Bulgarian and has not processed any reforms that point out they were isolated for centuries. When Turks arrived, they adapt to Islam peacefully, and actually became pro-Ottoman from the beginning just like Bosniaks. But afterward, they assimilated nearby into their own community, or the name "Muslim Bulgarian" automatically become equal to the term Pomak. Just like how Muslim Serbs of Sandzak known as Bosniaks today. In addition to this, I have reasons to believe that some type of Muslim Serbs and/or Balkan Turks from SE Serbia also absorbed into Pomaks.

When excluded Drama, Nevrakop, Kirkovo, and Western Komotini, the Pomak average shapes even farther from Bulgarians.


Pomak_Smolyan+Xanthi_N10,18.09,26.73,17.14,11.91,2 1.75,2.02,0.06,0.65,0.98,0.33,0.25,0.05,0.05

https://i.ibb.co/k0VjK6G/FF.png

And when compared them, Bulgarians seem to have additional Thracian admixture:

https://i.ibb.co/5nC95vL/bulgar.png

And Pomaks seem to have an additional Eurasian shift, which can be noise as well considering the average is only 1.5% EE, additional Slavic and East-Med shift.

https://i.ibb.co/D8fqnPh/pomak.png

So:

1- Pomak and Bulgarian should have the same origin. But Pomak is actually not a religious identity but a cultural identity that has been living isolated than Bulgarians, but gradually changed into a religious identity during the Ottomans as Bulgarians are converted into Islam.
2- A general average of Pomaks will be closer to the Bulgarians as it covers Muslim Bulgarians as well, but the actual backbone community always will show a regional differentiation just like the difference between Macedonians and Bulgarians.
3- Although both communities have the same/similar origin, they have different external factors that influenced them afterward. As I point out, Bulgarians might be absorbed Vlachs for example, while Pomaks might be absorbed Turks.
4- Furthermore, the East-Med shift seen can be related to Eastern Roman mobilities which were how Bogomilism had begun.
5- As the term Pomak cover a group that has been isolated way before Ottoman arrival and religious replacement, it can not be equal to Muslim Bulgarian. In this way, I can also ask then who are the Bulgarians, Christian Pomaks? South Slavs using a Turkic name? On the other hand, it is clear that Pomaks include a group of actual Muslim Bulgarians that experienced a religious shift in the 17-19th Centuries, while the religious shift of Pomaks dates to the 14-15th centuries.

[Abriekman]

Makes sense how Bulgarians often look like dark Ukrainians, they plot equally eastern just very different in north/south.

Interesting how Pomaks are second most eastern shifted Slavic group after Russians.

Bulgarians are hardly Slavs, too much East Med and West Asian admixture. Between there is old ruler of Bulgaria on my avatar

[vbnetkhio]

The situation of Pomaks actually kind of confusing, but I will try to explain.

There are two groups of Pomaks: One group of Pomaks are historical Bogomils while another group is directly Bulgarian converts. As a result, there are two different terms that cover them: Ahriyan and Pomak. Yet Pomaks as a whole only known under the Pomak meta term.

Some villages in Bulgaria identify as Muslim Bulgarian and acknowledge the Pomak name as an insult. On the other hand, some other villages think Muslim Bulgarian is an insult.

I do not believe there is a clear border between the two groups, but with a simple generalization:

Blue: Pre-Ottoman Bogomil Pomaks
Red: Muslim Bulgarians

https://i.ibb.co/8gvqjXq/xxx.png

Pomaks are the ones who converted Bulgarians who live near them into Islam and that's why they called Pomaks(means "Helper"). The Pomak language is a kind of archaic Bulgarian and has not processed any reforms that point out they were isolated for centuries. When Turks arrived, they adapt to Islam peacefully, and actually became pro-Ottoman from the beginning just like Bosniaks. But afterward, they assimilated nearby into their own community, or the name "Muslim Bulgarian" automatically become equal to the term Pomak. Just like how Muslim Serbs of Sandzak known as Bosniaks today. In addition to this, I have reasons to believe that some type of Muslim Serbs and/or Balkan Turks from SE Serbia also absorbed into Pomaks.

When excluded Drama, Nevrakop, Kirkovo, and Western Komotini, the Pomak average shapes even farther from Bulgarians.


Pomak_Smolyan+Xanthi_N10,18.09,26.73,17.14,11.91,2 1.75,2.02,0.06,0.65,0.98,0.33,0.25,0.05,0.05

https://i.ibb.co/k0VjK6G/FF.png

And when compared them, Bulgarians seem to have additional Thracian admixture:

https://i.ibb.co/5nC95vL/bulgar.png

And Pomaks seem to have an additional Eurasian shift, which can be noise as well considering the average is only 1.5% EE, additional Slavic and East-Med shift.

https://i.ibb.co/D8fqnPh/pomak.png

So:

1- Pomak and Bulgarian should have the same origin. But Pomak is actually not a religious identity but a cultural identity that has been living isolated than Bulgarians, but gradually changed into a religious identity during the Ottomans as Bulgarians are converted into Islam.
2- A general average of Pomaks will be closer to the Bulgarians as it covers Muslim Bulgarians as well, but the actual backbone community always will show a regional differentiation just like the difference between Macedonians and Bulgarians.
3- Although both communities have the same/similar origin, they have different external factors that influenced them afterward. As I point out, Bulgarians might be absorbed Vlachs for example, while Pomaks might be absorbed Turks.
4- Furthermore, the East-Med shift seen can be related to Eastern Roman mobilities which were how Bogomilism had begun.
5- As the term Pomak cover a group that has been isolated way before Ottoman arrival and religious replacement, it can not be equal to Muslim Bulgarian. In this way, I can also ask then who are the Bulgarians, Christian Pomaks? South Slavs using a Turkic name? On the other hand, it is clear that Pomaks include a group of actual Muslim Bulgarians that experienced a religious shift in the 17-19th Centuries, while the religious shift of Pomaks dates to the 14-15th centuries.

Pomaks look like their pre-Slavic population was Anatolian shifted, similar to Greek Islanders ,and not to South Italians like the rest of the Balkans.
they are also noticeably more Slavic than other central/east Bulgarians.

[Jana]

Bulgarians are hardly Slavs, too much East Med and West Asian admixture. Between there is old ruler of Bulgaria on my avatar

Well they are less than 50% early Slav. But ofc they are Slavic, just like Austrians, Swiss-Germans and English are Germanic. It's not determined by genetic score.

[Jana]

I discovered for Croats best proxy for their pre-Slavic part are Italians from Marche. All Croatian averages pick mainly Marche as their best fit in my model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marche

[Kaspias]

Pomaks look like their pre-Slavic population was Anatolian shifted, similar to Greek Islanders ,and not to South Italians like the rest of the Balkans.
they are also noticeably more Slavic than other central/east Bulgarians.

Yes, I do believe this is the case too. Mainland Greeks also pop up.

https://i.ibb.co/CPdtf4q/xa.png

[pelikarski]

Bulgarians are hardly Slavs, too much East Med and West Asian admixture. Between there is old ruler of Bulgaria on my avatar

No Bulgarian would be offended if you call them "the least SLavic", non-Slavic, etc.
Second, you are too irritating sticking your nose whenever the genetics of Bulgarians are mentioned with your supposed Arab looking Bulgarian ancestors, if they were mistaken for Arabs, Gypsies or Turks perhaps your ancestry from Bulgaria is some shit.
Third many of these samples from Bulgaria I am pretty sure have additional non Bulgarian admix

[gixajo]

And Moldovans? Aren´t they too under that "Slavic" category?

And Romanians or Hungarians?

[Chris596]

Very good, amazing work Stearsolina, as always :) I just tried out your averages and I still perfectly fit among Slavs.


Distance: 2.8198% / 2.81979178
Target: Chris
59.3 Pomak
19.7 Rusyn
10.2 Torbesh
8.8 Ukrainian
2.0 Sorb

Distance to: Chris
3.09331537 Serb
3.83391445 Bosniak
6.42502140 Croat
6.45952785 Montenegrin
8.80667928 Bulgarian
9.23271358 Pomak
10.63951597 Slovene
10.90749284 Rusyn
11.75914963 Macedonian
12.86375140 Slovak
15.03007651 Czech
17.08718233 Torbesh
17.70996612 Ukrainian
18.08976230 Sorb
21.34607458 Polish
23.28574671 Russian
24.61211084 Belorussian

[Jana]

Third many of these samples from Bulgaria I am pretty sure have additional non Bulgarian admix

No, not really. Bulgarian samples we have are just fine. And Bulgarians plot how they are supposed to.
If you think Bulgarian genetic is bogus, do DNA test and see for yourself.

[Jana]

And Moldovans? Aren´t they too under that "Slavic" category?

And Romanians or Hungarians?

What are you talking about? They are not Slavic. Lol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

[Jana]

Very good, amazing work Stearsolina, as always :) I just tried out your averages and I still perfectly fit among Slavs.


Distance: 2.8198% / 2.81979178
Target: Chris
59.3 Pomak
19.7 Rusyn
10.2 Torbesh
8.8 Ukrainian
2.0 Sorb

Distance to: Chris
3.09331537 Serb
3.83391445 Bosniak
6.42502140 Croat
6.45952785 Montenegrin
8.80667928 Bulgarian
9.23271358 Pomak
10.63951597 Slovene
10.90749284 Rusyn
11.75914963 Macedonian
12.86375140 Slovak
15.03007651 Czech
17.08718233 Torbesh
17.70996612 Ukrainian
18.08976230 Sorb
21.34607458 Polish
23.28574671 Russian
24.61211084 Belorussian


I tried it for Stears and me


Distance: 3.4326% / 3.43258305
Target: Stearsolina

44.4 Ukrainian
35.5 Montenegrin
20.1 Slovene

Distance: 4.1642% / 4.16423979
Target: Stears

48.6 Czech
41.8 Bulgarian
9.6 Russian

[Dušan]

Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44,0.97,0 .18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Bosniak,24.88,32.47,15.40,8.91,13.89,1.77,0.79,0.5 1,0.57,0.47,0.26,0.02,0.06
Bulgarian,21.80,24.15,17.82,11.65,19.51,2.40,0.53, 0.42,0.77,0.38,0.33,0.11,0.08
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10
Czech,33.53,37.14,12.43,5.94,7,0.9,1.18,0.14,0.66, 0.59,0.26,0.19,0.13
Macedonian,22.14,21.76,19.68,10.90,21.19,2.43,0.22 ,0.39,0.48,0.28,0.40,0.05,0.07
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06
Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.96,0.11, 0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Pomak,19.91,25.54,17.54,12.24,20.19,2.63,0.09,0.69 ,0.47,0.30,0.17,0.19,0.05
Russian,26.03,47.50,8.65,5.49,2.99,0.68,1.32,0.45, 4.75,1.23,0.46,0.15,0.31
Rusyn,26.18,38.44,13.89,5.43,11.20,1.12,1.13,0.20, 1.35,0.50,0.20,0.16,0.21
Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05
Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21
Slovene,31.53,34.36,14.60,6.52,9.66,1.01,0.64,0.32 ,0.30,0.43,0.39,0.12,0.12
Sorb,33.21,41.31,10.56,4.96,6.56,0.56,1.15,0.46,0. 26,0.59,0.16,0.10,0.12
Torbesh,21.55,17.67,22.34,10.48,23.69,2.25,0.00,0. 51,0.48,0.79,0.25,0.00,0.00
Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16,1.09,0. 91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07



Distance: 3.8103% / 3.81030784
Target: Dušan
36.7 Torbesh
30.8 Ukrainian
20.8 Russian
11.7 Pomak

:confused:

How genetic Slavic are these Torbesh and Pomaks?

[Abriekman]

No Bulgarian would be offended if you call them "the least SLavic", non-Slavic, etc.
Second, you are too irritating sticking your nose whenever the genetics of Bulgarians are mentioned with your supposed Arab looking Bulgarian ancestors, if they were mistaken for Arabs, Gypsies or Turks perhaps your ancestry from Bulgaria is some shit.
Third many of these samples from Bulgaria I am pretty sure have additional non Bulgarian admix

Maybe you are fake Bulgarian, your ancestry is shit, I look more Balkan, than you lol

[Ion Basescul]

And Moldovans? Aren´t they too under that "Slavic" category?

And Romanians or Hungarians?

It's a cultural term, so no. But genetically all these groups fit within the Slavic variety.

[Scandal]

Distance: 3.8762% / 3.87622947
Target: Universe(hungarian)
58.6 Belorussian
29.0 Torbesh
12.4 Sorb

[Abriekman]

Distance: 3.9690% / 3.96897508
Target: Abriekman
47.1 Russian
32.3 Pomak
13.0 Belorussian
4.4 Polish
3.2 Ukrainian

[Jana]

Distance: 3.8103% / 3.81030784
Target: Dušan
36.7 Torbesh
30.8 Ukrainian
20.8 Russian
11.7 Pomak

:confused:

How genetic Slavic are these Torbesh and Pomaks?

Torbesh around 25%, Pomaks are more.

[Jana]

Actually Pomaks are lot more Slavic than Torbesh, little over 40% in my model.

Distance: 0.9019% / 0.90191735
Target: Pomak

56.1 Vlach
42.8 Slavic
1.1 Alan

[Ion Basescul]

Distance: 2.8081% / 2.80810964
Target: IonBasescul_Merged
34.3 Bulgarian
32.6 Montenegrin
16.6 Czech
16.5 Russian

-Montenegrin
Distance: 2.8440% / 2.84396501
Target: IonBasescul_Merged
61.1 Bulgarian
25.7 Czech
13.2 Russian

[Kaspias]

Distance: 3.8103% / 3.81030784
Target: Dušan
36.7 Torbesh
30.8 Ukrainian
20.8 Russian
11.7 Pomak

:confused:

How genetic Slavic are these Torbesh and Pomaks?

Using Greek_North-Aegean + Ukrainian_Belgorod as proxies, Pomaks are roughly 50% Slavic and 50% Balkanic.
Using Abruzzo + Ukrainian_Belgorod as proxies, Torbeshi is roughly 20% Slavic and 80% Balkanic.

[Slavic Italian]

Why MDLP world? Barely anyone use that calculator. The forum uses mostly k13 and k15 to a lesser extent because they're considered the most accurate for europeans.

MDLP world isn't reliable at picking up east-west differences in Europeans, it shifts a lot of western euros eastwards. I have seen Brits get Czech/Slovenian, Irish get German, French get Austrian

Look at the results posted in these threads:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?173189-MDLP-World&p=3640665&viewfull=1#post3640665
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?300655-MDLP-World-Fresh-Thread&p=6236000&viewfull=1#post6236000

So as you see, the calculator isn't trustworthy at all, especially for people who have NW euro ancestry.

K13 has a reputation of being one of the most accurate calculators(for europeans). K13 clearly shows you are 50% or over 50% NW euro, with the rest being split between slavic and Italian or jewish.

What's your ancestry on paper? Why do you insist you're this and that slavic? and no, you aren't genetically more slavic than Stearsolina and other Croatians.

I know exactly what I am. I have also tested with every service and I have had an IBD analysis from David.

[Jana]

Using Greek_North-Aegean + Ukrainian_Belgorod as proxies, Pomaks are roughly 50% Slavic and 50% Balkanic.
Using Abruzzo + Ukrainian_Belgorod as proxies, Torbeshi is roughly 20% Slavic and 80% Balkanic.

Here is what my models select for them:

Distance: 0.9547% / 0.95474028
Target: Pomak_Greece

52.9 Vlach:Greek_Crete
42.8 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
2.2 Vlach:Sardinia
1.4 Vlach:Greek_Cypriot
0.7 Alan:North_Ossetian

Distance: 0.9128% / 0.91284462
Target: Pomak_Bulgaria

44.6 Vlach:Greek_Crete
43.5 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
8.2 Vlach:Sardinia
3.7 Vlach:IT_Molise

So 42-43% Slavic, 50% is too much.

Distance: 0.9547% / 0.95474028
Target: Pomak_Greece

56.5 Vlach
42.8 Slavic
0.7 Alan

Distance: 0.9128% / 0.91284462
Target: Pomak_Bulgaria

56.5 Vlach
43.5 Slavic

[Kaspias]

Here is what my models select for them:

Distance: 0.9547% / 0.95474028
Target: Pomak_Greece

52.9 Vlach:Greek_Crete
42.8 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
2.2 Vlach:Sardinia
1.4 Vlach:Greek_Cypriot
0.7 Alan:North_Ossetian

Distance: 0.9128% / 0.91284462
Target: Pomak_Bulgaria

44.6 Vlach:Greek_Crete
43.5 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
8.2 Vlach:Sardinia
3.7 Vlach:IT_Molise

So 42-43% Slavic, 50% is too much.

Distance: 0.9547% / 0.95474028
Target: Pomak_Greece

56.5 Vlach
42.8 Slavic
0.7 Alan

Distance: 0.9128% / 0.91284462
Target: Pomak_Bulgaria

56.5 Vlach
43.5 Slavic

Well yeah, fits are decent here.

[Slavic Italian]

Yeah, he is less than 25% early Slavic because his 1/4 Slav side wasn't 100% early Slav.
Croats_West are around 55%-60% Slavic from what I remember (lowest from all Croatian regions). Some of his Slav went to German though.

But conclusion is that his early Slavic ancestry is quite low and below 25%.

I come from Slavic lineage. Look at my Y. Your calculators are not that good.

[Jana]

If I use Stears Ancestry raw data (which is lot better than his 23andme one), he seem to be modeled half Czech on this and half Bulgarian with some extra Russian.
Czech could be close to his mother genetics, and Bulgarian + Russian to his father's. Bulgarian with 10% Russian will be Romanian like. Fit is high though so this is just rough outline.

[Dušan]

Using Greek_North-Aegean + Ukrainian_Belgorod as proxies, Pomaks are roughly 50% Slavic and 50% Balkanic.
Using Abruzzo + Ukrainian_Belgorod as proxies, Torbeshi is roughly 20% Slavic and 80% Balkanic.

Makes sense.

80% out of 36.7 = 29.36%
50% out of 11.7 = 5.85%

= 35.21%


35% is what I got from Andre's LateAntiquity - EarlyMedieval K13 model

Distance: 3.9918% / 3.99180341
Target: Dušan
65.0 EarlySlav_Slavic_Pannonia
28.3 LateRoman_Hellenic(?)_NorthItalia
4.5 LateRoman_Latin_Pannonia
2.2 LateRoman_Latin/Hellenic(?)_Bavaria(Germany)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338875-LateAntiquity-EarlyMedieval-K13-model&p=7041399&viewfull=1#post7041399

[Jana]

I come from Slavic lineage. Look at my Y. Your calculators are not that good.

I didn't do any model for you, stop bothering me.

[Slavic Italian]

Distance: 2.1999% / 2.19988486
Target: Slavic-Italian(White-American) | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.6 German
25.9 Croat_West
9.5 Moldova_Jewish
4.0 Yemenite_Jewish

Where is the Italian? Your calculation sucks. Where is the Irish? It's no secret most of you guys wish you were German. This is why this is such an issue for you. I am part of what you wish you were and it kills you I disregard it.

[Benyzero]

Distance: 3.5827% / 3.58274618
Target: Benny
89.2 Slovene
10.8 Torbesh

[Benyzero]

K13 right?

[andre]

Distance: 2.9422% / 2.94217027
Target: Andre
39.7 Torbesh
32.3 Macedonian
27.7 Belorussian
0.3 Sorb

Distance: 3.1893% / 3.18931570
Target: Andre | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.5 Macedonian
36.5 Rusyn

[gixajo]

What are you talking about? They are not Slavic. Lol.
[rl]

Wikipedia is fantastic, but it seems that "slavic" is a quite wide label, and that wiki article only speak about genetic 2 times, and using the same sentence:


Modern Slavic nations and ethnic groups are considerably diverse both genetically and culturally,

After this 2 times repeated sentence, after the text of the article, in the references, they just speak about Ydna.

It seems that this article speak about "slavs" more from a cultural point of view more than a genetic one.


Slavs are ethnolinguistic groups of people who speak the various Slavic languages of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic group of the Indo-European language family.

My idea about this issue is that Romanian, Moldavian and Hungarian, and even Baltics are also under the Slavic orbit genetically(in a minoritary way), and culturally very influenced (although they don´t use proper slavic languages) that´s why I asked what I asked. Was I very wrong ?

Anyway, I will make a small model with the references I´ve made, so, as an expert in Slavs and Balkans as you are, which other references from other ethnicities should I add to the sources to make a decent "balkan" calculator ?:)

Greece, central Asia,Caucasus .Turkish , Baltic and/or German(ic) for example?

[Scandal]

Where is the Italian? Your calculation sucks. Where is the Irish? It's no secret most of you guys wish you were German. This is why this is such an issue for you. I am part of what you wish you were and it kills you I disregard it.
Look, I don't know your ancestry, that's why I asked about it but it seems you don't wanna tell. It doesn't matter anyway, your k13 shows majority of your ancestry is W. European. You're not supposed to read the calc literally. German can be proxy for Irish because they are both NW euro genetically, decently close to each other, Jewish can be proxy for italian etc. If your slavic ancestry is from Slovenia Czechia or something you could be more than 1/4 slavic, but those countries are partially western and partially southern genetically, not purely slavic. Your proto-slavic ancestry is no more than 1/4.

Why would I wish I am German and even if I did, what would that have to do with your result? Your result is what it is, it's certainly not 1/2 slavic as you claimed earlier. Btw: your T-down is funny, it's your own result.

[Slavic Italian]

Look, I don't know your ancestry, that's why I asked about it but it seems you don't wanna tell. It doesn't matter anyway, your k13 shows majority of your ancestry is W. European. You're not supposed to read the calc literally. German can be proxy for Irish because they are both NW euro genetically, decently close to each other, Jewish can be proxy for italian etc. If your slavic ancestry is from Slovenia Czechia or something you could be more than 1/4 slavic, but those countries are partially western and partially southern genetically, not purely slavic. Your proto-slavic ancestry is no more than 1/4.

Why would I wish I am German and even if I did, what would that have to do with your result? Your result is what it is, it's certainly not 1/2 slavic as you claimed earlier. Btw: your T-down is funny, it's your own result.

T down? So you think only the K13 matters? Comical. Hungarians are funny people. You and spears are jealous because you do not have true Slavic chromosome.

[Scandal]

T down? So you think only the K13 matters? Comical.

I don't think 'only k13 matters' but it's the only one result I have from you. I have seen your MDLP world too but pure British isles people sometimes can get Czech first there, so it's not a very reliable for people with NW Euro ancestry.
K13 is most popular on this forum and from what I've seen it works accurately for Europeans. Seeing your k13 result I just don't see how you'd be half slavic.

[Slavic Italian]

I don't think 'only k13 matters' but it's the only one result I have from you. I have seen your MDLP world too but pure British isles people sometimes can get Czech first there, so it's not a very reliable for people with NW Euro ancestry.
K13 is most popular on this forum and from what I've seen it works accurately for Europeans. Seeing your k13 result I just don't see how you'd be half slavic.

I'm about 30-35% not half. By the way, I am not pure Euro ancestry either. Those shitty calcs fail to pick up everything.

[MandM]

Target: Milenko
Distance: 427.0452% / 4.27045244 | ADC: 0.5x RC
71.2 Serb
28.8 Pomak

Target: Milenko
Distance: 418.2434% / 4.18243383 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.8 Serb
40.0 Pomak
5.2 Russian

Target: Milenko
Distance: 394.5129% / 3.94512939
36.6 Pomak
32.2 Torbesh
26.6 Ukrainian
4.6 Russian


Distance to: Milenko
4.92791031 Serb
6.24392505 Montenegrin
7.02724697 Bosniak
7.40708445 Pomak
7.43737185 Bulgarian
9.92109369 Macedonian
10.27732455 Croat
13.60245934 Rusyn
14.47226313 Slovene
14.77364884 Torbesh
16.51701547 Slovak
18.95145113 Czech
20.52689455 Ukrainian
21.97616891 Sorb
24.34078060 Polish
25.89273450 Russian
27.70180680 Belorussian

[Scandal]

I'm about 30-35% not half.

Fair enough, couple of pages ago you were claiming 50%. Based on your k13 I'd guess you're more like 25%, but you're right that k13 is not the only thing to consider.

[Slavic Italian]

Fair enough, couple of pages ago you were claiming 50%. Based on your k13 I'd guess you're more like 25%, but you're right that k13 is not the only thing to consider.

That was just to mess with stears.

[Scandal]

That was just to mess with stears.

It's not Stears. I know Stears style well enough. I discussed with him a lot back in the day. I'd recognize it if it was Stears.

[Slavic Italian]

It's not Stears. I know Stears style well enough. I discussed with him a lot back in the day. I'd recognize it if it was Stears.

If you say so. "Rolls eyes."

[Scandal]

If you say so. "Rolls eyes."

Stears wouldn't be interested in making slavic, serbian, croatian PCA etc. Look at the stuff she's posted recently

[Slavic Italian]

Stears wouldn't be interested in making slavic, serbian, croatian PCA etc. Look at the stuff she's posted recently

If you say so.

[Jana]

Wikipedia is fantastic, but it seems that "slavic" is a quite wide label, and that wiki article only speak about genetic 2 times, and using the same sentence:

After this 2 times repeated sentence, after the text of the article, in the references, they just speak about Ydna.

It seems that this article speak about "slavs" more from a cultural point of view more than a genetic one.

My idea about this issue is that Romanian, Moldavian and Hungarian, and even Baltics are also under the Slavic orbit genetically(in a minoritary way), and culturally very influenced (although they don´t use proper slavic languages) that´s why I asked what I asked. Was I very wrong ?

Anyway, I will make a small model with the references I´ve made, so, as an expert in Slavs and Balkans as you are, which other references from other ethnicities should I add to the sources to make a decent "balkan" calculator ?:)

Greece, central Asia,Caucasus .Turkish , Baltic and/or German(ic) for example?

Well Slavic is ethno-cultural identity. So both based on common origin and language, pretty much like any other meta-identity. Yes, Hungarians, Romanians/Moldovans and Balts are similar to Slavs genetically. They have lot of shared ancestry. But ofcourse all Slavs have various degrees of non-Slavic input too.

I'm not sure, your G25 model is fine. But for most Balkan Slavs simple mix of Med like genetics and northeastern European should be enough.

[Jana]

Stears wouldn't be interested in making slavic, serbian, croatian PCA etc. Look at the stuff she's posted recently

Best to ignore such egocentric bitch. This guy who has less than 20% proto-Slav ancestry managed to turn Slav-related thread into discussion about him. I try to pretend he doesn't exist mostly.

[Slavic Italian]

Best to ignore such egocentric bitch. This guy who has less than 20% proto-Slav ancestry managed to turn Slav-related thread into discussion about him. I try to pretend he doesn't exist mostly.

Sure you do stears.

[pelikarski]

Maybe you are fake Bulgarian, your ancestry is shit, I look more Balkan, than you lol

Why do you think I am fake, and how you look more Balkan and how you know how I look like?

I am fully Bulgarian, from a region that has been historically Bulgarian and have not seen movements of various ethnic groups.

And also you promote the idea Bulgarians are swarthy/Turkish/West Asian like, of course its the internet, and you are free to do it, just its stupid and is a propaganda

[Jana]

with regional averages added :)

https://i.imgur.com/RaRE1xU.png

[pelikarski]

No, not really. Bulgarian samples we have are just fine. And Bulgarians plot how they are supposed to.
If you think Bulgarian genetic is bogus, do DNA test and see for yourself.

I saw in the Bulgarian thread a few academic Cretan like samples plus for a bonus a Gypsy admixed person, I believe they are all lumped together into the Bulgarian average.

[Jana]

I saw in the Bulgarian thread a few academic Cretan like samples plus for a bonus a Gypsy admixed person, I believe they are all lumped together into the Bulgarian average.

No they aren't. Lol, Bulgarian average is made of individual kits with full ancestry from given region.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?333385-Bulgarian-GEDmatch-Results

[Abriekman]

Why do you think I am fake, and how you look more Balkan and how you know how I look like?

I am fully Bulgarian, from a region that has been historically Bulgarian and have not seen movements of various ethnic groups.

And also you promote the idea Bulgarians are swarthy/Turkish/West Asian like, of course its the internet, and you are free to do it, just its stupid and is a propaganda

See admixtures of Bulgarian "Slavs" and to which populations they are closest to. I live in Eastern Europe, real Slavs (East and West Slavs ) do not consider Macedonians or Bulgarians to be Slavic, that can be sad for you and other "Slavic Bulgarians", but that is true, most popular opinion is that, there were Slavs but after Ottoman Empire how can we talk about Slavs there? that is not my personal opinion, I do not think so, but that is what people think there, pure SLAVIC theory is propoganda as well

[Benyzero]

Stears wouldn't be interested in making slavic, serbian, croatian PCA etc. Look at the stuff she's posted recently

He also thinks seya is an 50 year old bearded man trolling since for years. Colorful imagination

[pelikarski]

See admixtures of Bulgarian "Slavs" and to which populations they are closest to. I live in Eastern Europe, real Slavs (East and West Slavs ) do not consider Macedonians or Bulgarians to be Slavic, that can be sad for you and other "Slavic Bulgarians", but that is true, most popular opinion is that, there were Slavs but after Ottoman Empire how can we talk about Slavs there? that is not my personal opinion, I do not think so, but that is what people think there, pure SLAVIC theory is propoganda as well

Just what you said is very stupid.

[Slavic Italian]

He also thinks seya is an 50 year old bearded man trolling since for years. Colorful imagination

She's not who she says she is. Nice tattoos. Good luck getting any "quality" women.

[Ford]

Distance: 1.7994% / 1.79940923
Target: Ford
34.6 Torbesh
25.4 Rusyn
20.8 Slovene
9.7 Russian
9.5 Ukrainian


Distance: 2.0666% / 2.06655724
Target: Ford | ADC: 0.25x RC
61.0 Serb
21.6 Rusyn
17.4 Croat

[Benyzero]

She's not who she says she is. Nice tattoos. Good luck getting any "quality" women.

And what makes you think that exactly if I may ask?

[Jana]

See admixtures of Bulgarian "Slavs" and to which populations they are closest to. I live in Eastern Europe, real Slavs (East and West Slavs ) do not consider Macedonians or Bulgarians to be Slavic, that can be sad for you and other "Slavic Bulgarians", but that is true, most popular opinion is that, there were Slavs but after Ottoman Empire how can we talk about Slavs there? that is not my personal opinion, I do not think so, but that is what people think there, pure SLAVIC theory is propoganda as well

I never heard Poles or Russians don't consider Bulgarians Slavic. Sounds like BS. But even if they don't (never heard about it) it's totally irrelevant, it's not up to them to decide who is Slavic and who isn't.
Bulgaria is cradle of Slavic orthodox culture and I'm pretty sure lot of eastern Europeans are aware of it.

BTW, I heard from some Ukrainian nationalists how Russians are not real Slavs but Finno-Ugric mongrels. That's just a petty nationalist trolling, but since northern Slavs have no issues with Bulgarians or Macedonians I don't see how what you say makes any sense.

[Slavic Italian]

I never heard Poles or Russians don't consider Bulgarians Slavic. Sounds like BS. But even if they don't (never heard about it) it's totally irrelevant, it's not up to them to decide who is Slavic and who isn't.
.

Nor is it yours.

[pelikarski]

I never heard Poles or Russians don't consider Bulgarians Slavic. Sounds like BS. But even if they don't (never heard about it) it's totally irrelevant, it's not up to them to decide who is Slavic and who isn't.
Bulgaria is cradle of Slavic orthodox culture and I'm pretty sure lot of eastern Europeans are aware of it.

Yeah especially Poles, when the two countries have barely anything in common, except some stereotype Eastern things, I doubt people there face the dilemma from their true Slavic Pov, whether we are Slavic or not.

And as I said Bulgarians don't care and are not emotional for Slavicness, the same way Serbs are, for example.

[Jana]

Nor is it yours.

You aren't Slavic idiot, you have minor Slavic ancestry and have no cultural or linguistic ties to any Slavic nation. There are no Slavs who would recognize you as Slavic, you are similarly Slavic like African Americans are Anglo-Saxon.

[Jana]

Yeah especially Poles, when the two countries have barely anything in common, except some stereotype Eastern things, I doubt people there face the dilemma from their true Slavic Pov, whether we are Slavic or not.

And as I said Bulgarians don't care and are not emotional for Slavicness, the same way Serbs are, for example.

Irl people don't care about slavicness at all from what I've seen.

[Slavic Italian]

You aren't Slavic idiot, you have minor Slavic ancestry and have no cultural or linguistic ties to any Slavic nation. There are no Slavs who would recognize you as Slavic, you are similarly Slavic like African Americans are Anglo-Saxon.

Bitch don't be stupid. That is typical of all Americans born here after a couple generations.

[Jana]

Bitch don't be stupid. That is typical of all Americans born here after a couple generations.

There are plenty of Slavs in US, you just aren't one of them. But I noticed lot of Americans like to larp and pretend to be something which they aren't and have minor ancestry from.

[Slavic Italian]

There are plenty of Slavs in US, you just aren't one of them. But I noticed lot of Americans like to larp and pretend to be something which they have minor ancestry from.

You would not be either with that Y Chromosome. Hahahahaha. I have true Slavic Y and you don't. Hahaha

[Leto]

I never heard Poles or Russians don't consider Bulgarians Slavic. Sounds like BS. But even if they don't (never heard about it) it's totally irrelevant, it's not up to them to decide who is Slavic and who isn't.
Bulgaria is cradle of Slavic orthodox culture and I'm pretty sure lot of eastern Europeans are aware of it.

BTW, I heard from some Ukrainian nationalists how Russians are not real Slavs but Finno-Ugric mongrels. That's just a petty nationalist trolling, but since northern Slavs have no issues with Bulgarians or Macedonians I don't see how what you say makes any sense.
The "Turkish blood" hoax regarding the Balkans is not uncommon in Russia as it is in the West. In Russia looking Slavic basically means looking typically Russian with blondish hair and blue eyes. South Slavs are almost non-existent in Russia, the most common would be Serbian nationals. The only significant Balkan group in Russia are Moldovans.

[Jana]

You would not be either with that Y Chromosome. Hahahahaha. I have true Slavic Y and you don't. Hahaha

I'm a girl so ofc I don't have Y cromosome :laugh: My father's YDA is typicaly Slavic though.
As I said, you are similarly Slavic like American negro with Germanic ydna is Anglo-Saxon. Even your autosomal Slavic input is similar to amount of NW Euro admix in blacks.
However unlike them you don't even speak Slavic language.

[Slavic Italian]

I'm a girl so ofc I don't have Y cromosome :laugh: My father's YDA is typical Slavic though.
As I said, you are similarly Slavic like American negro with Germanic ydna is Anglo-Saxon. Even your autosomal Slavic input is similar to amount of NW Euro admix in blacks.
However unlike them you don't even speak Slavic language.

You do not even make sense. I don't want to speak any of your languages. In this world it's the U.S. and China then everybody else.

[Jana]

The "Turkish blood" hoax regarding the Balkans is not uncommon in Russia as it is in the West. In Russia looking Slavic basically means looking typically Russian with blondish hair and blue eyes. South Slavs are almost non-existent in Russia, the most common would be Serbian nationals. The only significant Balkan group in Russia are Moldovans.

I wouldn't consider Moldovans Balkan though. They are ex Soviet sphere and located in eastern Europe. They are just Balkan genetically.

[Leto]

You do not even make sense. I don't want to speak any of your languages. In this world it's the U.S. and China then everybody else.
Then why are you so obsessed with Slavs, especially with Russians? Is your "Slavic" grandparent even RUSSIAN? If he's Polish, then you literally have nothing to do with us. There is no "Slavic" ethnicity, there are different countries with different languages, religious denominations and politics.
And by the way, the U.S. is going down. After 4 years of a Biden-Harris admin it's either a Latin American-style country or a civil war.

[Slavic Italian]

Then why are you so obsessed with Slavs, especially with Russians? Is your "Slavic" grandparent even RUSSIAN? If he's Polish, then you literally have nothing to do with us. There is no "Slavic" ethnicity, there are different countries with different languages, religious denominations and politics.
And by the way, the U.S. is going down. After 4 years of a Biden-Harris admin it's either a Latin American-style country or a civil war.

My Y Chromosome ties are mostly to Russians. I'm not sharing everything. U.S. going down? Shouldn't that have happened when we went trillions in debt? Your country has bitten the bullet twice and recovered then so can we. Quit posting to me. I broke up with you. Hahahaha. Now if there is civil war. I will move in with you over there. Hahahaha

[Abriekman]

I never heard Poles or Russians don't consider Bulgarians Slavic. Sounds like BS. But even if they don't (never heard about it) it's totally irrelevant, it's not up to them to decide who is Slavic and who isn't.
Bulgaria is cradle of Slavic orthodox culture and I'm pretty sure lot of eastern Europeans are aware of it.

BTW, I heard from some Ukrainian nationalists how Russians are not real Slavs but Finno-Ugric mongrels. That's just a petty nationalist trolling, but since northern Slavs have no issues with Bulgarians or Macedonians I don't see how what you say makes any sense.

On Russian forums this theory is very common

[Leto]

I wouldn't consider Moldovans Balkan though. They are ex Soviet sphere and located in eastern Europe. They are just Balkan genetically.
I consider them Slavo-Vlach. They're usually fluent in Russian and culturally similar to Ukrainians. I'm not talking about Romania, only the country of Moldova.

[Abriekman]

The "Turkish blood" hoax regarding the Balkans is not uncommon in Russia as it is in the West. In Russia looking Slavic basically means looking typically Russian with blondish hair and blue eyes. South Slavs are almost non-existent in Russia, the most common would be Serbian nationals. The only significant Balkan group in Russia are Moldovans.

This is what I am talking about

[Leto]

My Y Chromosome ties are mostly to Russians.
So the connection is nebulous to say the least. Either tell me how much Russian you are exactly on an autosomal level or stop larping.

[Jana]

On Russian forums this theory is very common

And many Europeans think Russians are partly Tatar/Mongoloid. I wouldn't put much value into it.

[Dick]

After 4 years of a Biden-Harris admin it's either a Latin American-style country or a civil war.

They plan but God’s plan is better

[Loki]

Sure you do stears.

It's not Stears this time, it's really her.

[Slavic Italian]

So the connection is nebulous to say the least. Either tell me how much Russian you are exact on an autosomal level or stop larping.

I'm a private person sorry. But there is strong Belarusian tie there as well. I just received some pics of my ancestor from a relative.

[Ion Basescul]

What happened to this thread :lol:

[Slavic Italian]

And many Europeans think Russians are partly Tatar/Mongoloid. I wouldn't put much value into it.

I'm sorry for being rude. By the way, I have Tatar matches on Y-111 as well.

[Leto]

They plan but God’s plan is better
I want a Jared Taylor-style secession for American whites. There is no other choice but to go separate ways.

[Jana]

I'm sorry for being rude.

Me too.

[Leto]

And many Europeans think Russians are partly Tatar/Mongoloid. I wouldn't put much value into it.
The Mong is real but 1. It's exaggerated oftentimes. 2. Its source is mostly different. 3. The Tatars themselves are a lot more mixed than they think.

[Slavic Italian]

Me too.

I'm not to be taken seriously. I know I am around 20% Slav and it is very mixed.

[Jana]

The Mong is real but 1. It's exaggerated oftentimes. 2. Its source is mostly different. 3. The Tatars themselves are a lot more mixed than they think.

It's just few percent, nothing significant. Some people act like Putin is half Chinese. That's similar to trolling about Bulgarians or any other Slavic group.

[Slavic Italian]

They plan but God’s plan is better

Read Revelation 18. I am done with this thread and I accept responsibility for derailing it.

[Dick]

Read Revelation 18. I am done with this thread and I accept responsibility for derailing it.

America is not Babylon. If anything, the “Babylonians” are the ones that corrupted it and are trying to destroy it.

[Slavic Italian]

America is not Babylon. If anything, the “Babylonians” are the ones that corrupted it and are trying to destroy it.

America is Babylon the Great. No other nation fits the description.

[Dick]

America is Babylon the Great. No other nation fits the description.

No it’s China. Wait and see what will happen to them next year. A great disaster.

[Linebacker]

I take Stearsolina's side on the Slavic Italian saga.

You happened to get a Slavic Ydna and you probably have some admixture and this is fine, but it definitely doesn't mean you should come and insult everyone to believe you are a Slavic god.

I happened to get a mtdna that is predominantly found in northern Spain and you don't see me going to the Spanish subforum in a bullfighting costume just appropriating the shit out of their culture like its mine for the taking now.

[Jana]

I take Stearsolina's side on the Slavic Italian saga.

You happened to get a Slavic Ydna and you probably have some admixture and this is fine, but it definitely doesn't mean you should come and insult everyone to believe you are a Slavic god.

I happened to get a mtdna that is predominantly found in northern Spain and you don't see me going to the Spanish subforum in a bullfighting costume just appropriating the shit out of their culture like its mine for the taking now.

Would be great if you made a thread about your DNA results. Would be very interesting to see for sure.

[Linebacker]

Would be great if you made a thread about your DNA results. Would be very interesting to see for sure.

I want to post from my main account and not a sockpuppet but Loki is ignoring my PMs and ghosting me. I will most probably leave again before anyone realized im back.

[Jana]

I want to post from my main account and not a sockpuppet but Loki is ignoring my PMs and ghosting me. I will most probably leave again before anyone realized im back.

Please don't! I am really happy to have you back!

[Slavic Italian]

I take Stearsolina's side on the Slavic Italian saga.

You happened to get a Slavic Ydna and you probably have some admixture and this is fine, but it definitely doesn't mean you should come and insult everyone to believe you are a Slavic god.

I happened to get a mtdna that is predominantly found in northern Spain and you don't see me going to the Spanish subforum in a bullfighting costume just appropriating the shit out of their culture like its mine for the taking now.

Like I care about what you think. Quit stirring the pot Frankenstein.

[cass]

...

And as I said Bulgarians don't care and are not emotional for Slavicness, the same way Serbs are, for example.

While talking with some guys from E. Bulgaria I was sorry to listen they rather associate themselves with *****uh tradition. It was pleasant surprise that Bulgarian Macedonians do not share it. Just random observation.