Saami, other Uralic are genetically distant from MENAs as Siberians are to SE Asians and Polynesians

[Zanzibar]

Saamis, other Uralics seem genetically as faraway from MENAs and West Asians as much as Siberians/some Central Asians like Tuvinians, Altaians, Kazakhs are to SE Asians and Polynesians (they are predominantly Mongoloid with significant Australoid ancestry).

Distance to: Saami

0.21965630 Turkish_Istanbul
0.23064760 Chechen
0.23429169 Turkish_Adana
0.23479057 Azeri_Dagestan
0.23533737 Adygei
0.24101451 Turkish_Kayseri
0.24396832 Azeri
0.24675200 Azeri_Turkey
0.25070430 Iranian_Fars
0.25421206 Turkish_East
0.25499602 Zaza_Dersim
0.25572831 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.26423832 Iranian_Lor
0.26454310 Kurdish
0.26807413 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.27485559 Syrian
0.27865391 Iraqi_B
0.27948386 Syrian_B
0.28005015 Iraqi
0.28056025 Georgian_Jew
0.28073841 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.28190573 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.28540120 Cypriot
0.28554859 Assyrian
0.28561185 Georgian_Laz
0.28649552 Armenian
0.28668105 Turkish_Trabzon
0.28728552 Iranian_Jew
0.28792844 Druze
0.28795983 Armenian_B
0.28796670 Jordanian
0.28796837 Lebanese_Druze
0.28900593 Georgian_Imer
0.28944965 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.29026068 Jordanian_B
0.29253684 Palestinian
0.29632170 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.29785188 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.30020257 Iraqi_Jew
0.30033705 BedouinA
0.30205517 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.31151678 Samaritan
0.31567485 Moroccan_North
0.31721780 Egyptian
0.32629611 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.32774029 Algerian
0.33794440 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.33960721 Saudi
0.34040927 BedouinB
0.34174855 Moroccan
0.36534483 Berber_MAR_TIZ (they have good amount of SSA admixture)


Compared to several Siberians such as Tuvinians to SE Asians and Polynesians

Distance to: Tuvinian

0.18089873 Dungan (ethnic Hui Chinese from Central Asia)
0.18815011 Magar (Tibeto-Burman from Nepal)
0.19068365 Gurung (Tibeto-Burman from Nepal)
0.19272915 Sherpa
0.19813545 Rai (Tibeto-Burman from Nepal)
0.21170096 Kusunda (from Nepal)
0.21443255 Tripuri
0.21879619 Han_Shanxi
0.21923734 Burmese
0.22029273 Japanese
0.22060356 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.22072536 Qiang_Danba
0.25441623 Tujia
0.25531797 JPN_Jomon (ancient Jomon from Japan)
0.25935939 Miao
0.26166306 Thai
0.26338888 Han_Fujian
0.27038068 Lahu
0.27163578 She (tribe from Southern China)
0.28266053 Dong_Guizhou (Tai-Kradai tribe from Southern China)
0.28321560 Kinh_Vietnam
0.28552902 Cambodian
0.28709165 Aeta (Negrito from Philippines)
0.29059766 Mulam (Tai-Kradai tribe from Southern China)
0.29238857 Filipino
0.29305191 Zhuang
0.29320402 Malay
0.29486412 Vizayan
0.29629231 Jehai (Negrito from Malaysia)
0.29670556 Dai
0.30101427 Maonan (Tai Kradai tribe from Southern China)
0.30536711 Li (Tai Kradai tribe from Hainan Island in Southern China)
0.30676043 PYF_150BP (individual from French Polynesia)
0.30751590 Hawaiian
0.31187399 BRA_Botocudo (ancient Polynesians)
0.31189604 Bajo (sea nomads from Indonesia and Philippines)
0.31415513 Htin_Mal (ethnic group from mainland SE Asia)
0.31554210 Atayal
0.31616183 Luzon
0.31943597 Mlabri (SE Asian isolated tribal group)
0.32109355 Indonesian_Bali
0.32446274 Tongan
0.32575276 Indonesian_Java
0.32773193 Ami
0.33066199 Rindi_Sumba (ethnic group from Sumba Island, Indonesia)
0.33131425 Igorot (Austronesian hill tribe from Philippines)
0.33164248 Lebbo (Austronesian from Borneo)
0.33174903 Dusun (Austronesian from Borneo)
0.33680433 Murut (Austronesian from Borneo)
0.37608153 Umak_Laran_Timor (tribe from Timor, Indonesia- heavy Papuan admixture)


Or the distance of Mari to MENAs

Distance to: Mari

0.23674137 Turkish_Istanbul
0.24500039 Turkish_Adana
0.24638117 Azeri_Dagestan
0.24653910 Chechen
0.25117984 Adygei
0.25169494 Turkish_Kayseri
0.25230159 Azeri
0.25523761 Azeri_Turkey
0.25924072 Iranian_Fars
0.26443575 Turkish_East
0.26579230 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.26741645 Zaza_Dersim
0.27181894 Iranian_Lor
0.27362903 Kurdish
0.27424569 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.28371460 Syrian
0.28699424 Iraqi_B
0.28705428 Iraqi
0.28774159 Syrian_B
0.28984775 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.29026239 Georgian_Jew
0.29046929 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.29362239 Assyrian
0.29408624 Iranian_Jew
0.29531222 Armenian
0.29578113 Georgian_Laz
0.29646935 Jordanian
0.29700127 Turkish_Trabzon
0.29721275 Armenian_B
0.29736074 Cypriot
0.29764291 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.29794761 Lebanese_Druze
0.29818010 Druze
0.29860447 Georgian_Imer
0.29882487 Jordanian_B
0.30052173 Palestinian
0.30572447 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.30654011 Iraqi_Jew
0.30700700 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.30751509 BedouinA
0.31211995 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.31945449 Samaritan
0.32267646 Egyptian
0.32792756 Moroccan_North
0.33570928 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.33686702 Algerian
0.34226651 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.34493404 Saudi
0.34655321 BedouinB
0.34956482 Moroccan
0.37342749 Berber_MAR_TIZ


And compare them to the Kazakh to SE Asians and Polynesians:

Distance to: Kazakh

0.17733597 Kusunda
0.18673764 Magar
0.19243947 Dungan
0.21109642 Gurung
0.21220113 Tripuri
0.22145928 Burmese
0.22830478 Sherpa
0.22855464 Rai
0.23915680 JPN_Jomon
0.25128653 Thai
0.25751247 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.25833159 Han_Shanxi
0.26079063 Jehai
0.26164166 Qiang_Danba
0.26283305 Aeta
0.26468925 Japanese
0.28525247 Cambodian
0.28561314 Tujia
0.28662934 Malay
0.28667102 Miao
0.28860099 Lahu
0.29185482 Han_Fujian
0.29449091 PYF_150BP
0.29451758 Filipino
0.29717628 Vizayan
0.29777245 Kinh_Vietnam
0.29819938 She
0.30265826 BRA_Botocudo
0.30346847 Dong_Guizhou
0.30525635 Bajo
0.30953406 Mulam
0.31010467 Dai
0.31203535 Zhuang
0.31253998 Hawaiian
0.31323688 Tongan
0.31537221 Indonesian_Bali
0.31758039 Htin_Mal
0.31821774 Maonan
0.32025707 Li
0.32044891 Rindi_Sumba
0.32226699 Mlabri
0.32354906 Indonesian_Java
0.32545087 Luzon
0.33016959 Atayal
0.33418341 Lebbo
0.33977038 Dusun
0.34245328 Ami
0.34554420 Igorot
0.34582346 Murut
0.36121986 Umak_Laran_Timor


The distance most Siberian-shifted modern Saami individual to MENAs and West Asians:

Distance to: Saami:GS000035025

0.23940061 Turkish_Istanbul
0.25026030 Chechen
0.25237518 Turkish_Adana
0.25272563 Azeri_Dagestan
0.25442540 Adygei
0.25918302 Turkish_Kayseri
0.26116496 Azeri
0.26299440 Azeri_Turkey
0.26764571 Iranian_Fars
0.27262376 Turkish_East
0.27348076 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.27358812 Zaza_Dersim
0.28104854 Iranian_Lor
0.28283667 Kurdish
0.28416759 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.29229055 Syrian
0.29603097 Iraqi
0.29643926 Iraqi_B
0.29675537 Syrian_B
0.29856668 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.29895642 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.29924464 Georgian_Jew
0.30392856 Assyrian
0.30447119 Georgian_Laz
0.30479861 Cypriot
0.30491843 Iranian_Jew
0.30500936 Armenian
0.30537244 Jordanian
0.30554206 Turkish_Trabzon
0.30637849 Lebanese_Druze
0.30665645 Druze
0.30675187 Armenian_B
0.30705503 Georgian_Imer
0.30745884 Jordanian_B
0.30803768 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.30960990 Palestinian
0.31489073 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.31629903 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.31645597 BedouinA
0.31778151 Iraqi_Jew
0.32154291 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.32873781 Samaritan
0.33017529 Moroccan_North
0.33136826 Egyptian
0.33960763 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.34024103 Algerian
0.35323142 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.35356470 Moroccan
0.35504019 Saudi
0.35591588 BedouinB
0.37633336 Berber_MAR_TIZ


Compared to the Khakass, a Turkic tribe from Khakassia, in Southern Siberia

Distance to: Khakass

0.19880078 Kusunda
0.20126731 Magar
0.20488166 Dungan
0.22088850 Gurung
0.22724750 Tripuri
0.23274964 Sherpa
0.23541135 Burmese
0.23545944 Rai
0.25920019 JPN_Jomon
0.26290941 Han_Shanxi
0.26309435 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.26603085 Qiang_Danba
0.26833295 Thai
0.26869988 Japanese
0.28033095 Aeta
0.28057957 Jehai
0.29324865 Tujia
0.29530742 Miao
0.29816665 Cambodian
0.29851625 Lahu
0.30048613 Han_Fujian
0.30069019 Malay
0.30717956 She
0.30741847 Filipino
0.30850879 Kinh_Vietnam
0.30884624 Vizayan
0.31050610 PYF_150BP
0.31333734 Dong_Guizhou
0.31670436 BRA_Botocudo
0.31901333 Bajo
0.31979654 Mulam
0.32152777 Dai
0.32215882 Zhuang
0.32439885 Hawaiian
0.32813183 Tongan
0.32857772 Maonan
0.32873069 Indonesian_Bali
0.32938479 Htin_Mal
0.33098049 Li
0.33320638 Mlabri
0.33487913 Rindi_Sumba
0.33599858 Indonesian_Java
0.33615452 Luzon
0.33983717 Atayal
0.34547565 Lebbo
0.34953242 Dusun
0.35182259 Ami
0.35439321 Igorot
0.35593996 Murut
0.37480649 Umak_Laran_Timor

[Lemminkäinen]

Neareasterners' distances to Saami etc. don't mean distances of Uralic people from MENAs. But in fact I don't understand why people are on both sides so excited of this matter.

[Zanzibar]

Neareasterners' distances to Saami etc. don't mean distances of Uralic people from MENAs. But in fact I don't understand why people are on both sides so excited of this matter.

Well I wanted to see which groups are genetically more distant from.one another: Uralics to MENAs vs Siberians and predominantly Mongoloid Central Asians to SE Asians and Polynesians/Micronesians.

[Lemminkäinen]

Well I wanted to see which groups are genetically more distant from.one another: Uralics to MENAs vs Siberians and predominantly Mongoloid Central Asians to SE Asians and Polynesians/Micronesians.

The main answer is Siberian, as well as some another fsctor in the Middle-East. In another comparison you made we see that Balts are closer to Saamis than to Sardinians. In general we have many genenic spots in Europe, one in the northern fringe, but also them are predominantly European, excluding Siberian admixture. Europeans don't want to be Mideasterners. Maybe some feel like that, but it is an exception.

[Zanzibar]

The main answer is Siberian, as well as some another fsctor in the Middle-East. In another comparison you made we see that Balts are closer to Saamis than to Sardinians. In general we have many genenic spots in Europe, one in the northern fringe, but also them are predominantly European, excluding Siberian admixture. Europeans don't want to be Mideasterners. Maybe some feel like that, but it is an exception.

I think it depends on the Siberian group. From.the distance runs I did, Yakuts, some Northern Tungusics like Evenki, Even, Paleosiberians like Chukchis, Itelmens and Yeniseians such as Kets, Selkups are further away from SE Asians than Saamis and other Uralics are to MENAs/West Asians. Meanwhile the distance of South Siberians like Tuvinians/Tuvans, Altaians, Buryats and predominantly Mongoloid Central Asians like Kazakhs and South Tungusics to SE Asians and Polynesians/Micronesians are as distant as Saamis, other Uralics are to West Asians/MENAs. And I think it has to do with the fact that these South Siberians and Kazakhs, other predominantly Mongoloid Turkics have some Southern Coastal East Asian (related to the main ancestry in Dai and other SE Asians which pulls them closer to SE Asians and Polyneaians similar to the very low Neolithic Farmer in Saamis, other Uralics.

I have a feeling that if Uralics don't have some Neolithic and CHG admix which their ancient Hunter Gatherer ancestors lacked, they will be as genetically distant from West Asians/MENAs maybe equally or more than Paleosiberians and Yeniseians are to SE Asians and Polynesians. Neolithic Farmer and CHG ancestry which also contains significant Basal Eurasian seems to pull Europeans closer to West Asia/Near East, North Africa and Iranic Central Asia (which is anothrrer predominantly West Eurasian region).

What is the some other factor in the Middle East?

Regarding the last part I understand that. I wanted to see who has more genetic distance and divergence: West Eurasians/heavily West Eurasian influenced peoples and Mongoloids/East Eurasians.

[Zanzibar]

Ancient Saami individual from Levanluhta Iron Age site in Finland. He/she is even more Siberian and less Neolithic shifted than Saami:GS000035025 which is the most East Asian and least Neolithic individual among the modern Saami samples. He/she is genetically as distant and divergent from West Asians and MENAs as much as Yakuts and Dolgans (a Turkic tribe from Northern Siberia) are from SE Asians and Polynesians. This ancient individual has the lowest Neolithic EEF (around 10%) and highest East Asian (Siberian) at 30% that I have seen among Saamis.

I wonder are there still any modern day Saamis who are around 30% Siberian and 10% EEF or lower.

Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA238

0.26196409 Turkish_Istanbul
0.27162038 Chechen
0.27237624 Turkish_Adana
0.27357529 Azeri_Dagestan
0.27543675 Adygei
0.27965359 Turkish_Kayseri
0.28001921 Azeri
0.28418945 Azeri_Turkey
0.28614902 Iranian_Fars
0.29285596 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.29288133 Turkish_East
0.29410983 Zaza_Dersim
0.29981406 Iranian_Lor
0.30207773 Kurdish
0.30254036 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.31262681 Syrian
0.31486651 Iraqi
0.31612712 Syrian_B
0.31622825 Iraqi_B
0.31874591 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.31930910 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.31935338 Georgian_Jew
0.32391217 Assyrian
0.32420075 Jordanian
0.32520830 Iranian_Jew
0.32543860 Georgian_Laz
0.32634419 Armenian
0.32686522 Turkish_Trabzon
0.32727373 Jordanian_B
0.32738158 Lebanese_Druze
0.32738518 Cypriot
0.32774568 Druze
0.32775670 Armenian_B
0.32784836 Georgian_Imer
0.32845520 Palestinian
0.32845925 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.33429105 BedouinA
0.33590231 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.33728704 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.33831520 Iraqi_Jew
0.34095868 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.34881454 Egyptian
0.34911697 Moroccan_North
0.34958909 Samaritan
0.35709958 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.35793655 Algerian
0.36937514 Moroccan
0.36972989 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.37061309 Saudi
0.37145343 BedouinB
0.39176872 Berber_MAR_TIZ


Compared him/her to the Yakuts and Dolgans (a Turkic tribe from the Arctic Russia):


Distance to: Yakut

0.24056932 Dungan
0.24699141 Gurung (Tibeto Burman from Nepal)
0.24762679 Sherpa
0.25045698 Magar (Tibeto Burman from Nepal)
0.25097764 Rai
0.26370066 Han_Shanxi
0.26410544 Japanese
0.26519628 Qiang_Danba
0.26639220 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.27164249 Tripuri
0.27458350 Burmese
0.27815705 Kusunda (tribe from Nepal)
0.29397135 Tujia
0.29705308 Miao
0.30405552 Han_Fujian
0.31022155 JPN_Jomon
0.31094930 Thai
0.31106919 She
0.31244528 Lahu
0.32174601 Dong_Guizhou
0.32460430 Kinh_Vietnam
0.32867830 Mulam
0.33063961 Zhuang
0.33180833 Cambodian
0.33447087 Dai
0.33543992 Aeta
0.33575481 Filipino
0.33758011 Vizayan
0.33895720 Maonan
0.33913545 Malay
0.34260076 Li
0.34645854 Hawaiian
0.34804068 Jehai
0.35000228 Atayal
0.35270218 PYF_150BP (Polynesian)
0.35447151 Htin_Mal
0.35544255 Bajo
0.35576295 Luzon
0.35759650 BRA_Botocudo (Polynesians)
0.35947056 Mlabri
0.36239326 Ami
0.36360892 Indonesian_Bali
0.36573130 Tongan
0.36648393 Indonesian_Java
0.36706053 Igorot
0.36967307 Dusun
0.37060792 Lebbo
0.37152655 Murut
0.37325016 Rindi_Sumba
0.41356109 Umak_Laran_Timor (tribe from Timor Island, Indonesia; very heavy Papuan admixed).


Distance to: Dolgan

0.24448892 Dungan
0.25087377 Magar
0.25227457 Gurung
0.25529264 Sherpa
0.25858879 Rai
0.27199127 Kusunda
0.27297494 Japanese
0.27320559 Tripuri
0.27562346 Han_Shanxi
0.27752390 Burmese
0.27763332 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.27794235 Qiang_Danba
0.30148090 JPN_Jomon
0.30617468 Tujia
0.30986179 Miao
0.31306719 Thai
0.31568277 Han_Fujian
0.32155755 Lahu
0.32297872 She
0.33219116 Aeta
0.33224277 Dong_Guizhou
0.33293903 Kinh_Vietnam
0.33494659 Cambodian
0.33905817 Mulam
0.34050000 Filipino
0.34067239 Zhuang
0.34111661 Malay
0.34131461 Vizayan
0.34254616 Jehai
0.34364651 Dai
0.34892673 Maonan
0.35188647 PYF_150BP
0.35236327 Li
0.35326465 Hawaiian
0.35698806 Bajo
0.35809239 BRA_Botocudo
0.35926201 Atayal
0.36015768 Htin_Mal
0.36209304 Luzon
0.36453759 Mlabri
0.36584896 Indonesian_Bali
0.36628547 Tongan
0.36965865 Indonesian_Java
0.36994318 Ami (Taiwan Aborigines)
0.37385062 Rindi_Sumba (ethnic group from Sumba, Indonesia)
0.37480534 Lebbo
0.37480782 Igorot
0.37547839 Dusun
0.37878422 Murut
0.41186346 Umak_Laran_Timor (tribe from Timor, Indonesia; has very heavy Papuan admixture)

[Zanzibar]

EHG who are the ancient hunter gatherer ancestors of modern Saamis and other Uralics and other ancient Hunter Gatherers like WHG are genetically much more divergent and distant from West Asians and MENAs even more than the Selkups are from SE Asians and Polynesians. This makes me think that the so called West Eurasian aka Caucasoid race doesn't even exist.

Just look at the distance of EHGs and WHGs to their fellow Caucasoid the West Asians/MENAs, its almost if they are totally different unrelated race lol!! Komintasavalta and other guys, do you wished that Uralics were still Hunter Gatherers+ Siberian? You would be genetically so distant from "fellow Caucasoids" lmao. :thumb001:

Distance of EHG to West Asians/MENAs:

Distance to: RUS_Karelia_HG

0.31088162 Chechen
0.31932041 Turkish_Istanbul
0.32308702 Adygei
0.32432201 Azeri_Dagestan
0.33599975 Turkish_Adana
0.33652231 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.33714728 Iranian_Fars
0.34121679 Zaza_Dersim
0.34175359 Azeri
0.34231932 Azeri_Turkey
0.34287610 Turkish_Kayseri
0.34756180 Turkish_East
0.34773074 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.35115310 Kurdish
0.35169136 Iranian_Lor
0.36929979 Syrian
0.37042610 Iraqi_B
0.37076043 Georgian_Jew
0.37167000 Iraqi
0.37328970 Georgian_Imer
0.37335386 Georgian_Laz
0.37416131 Syrian_B
0.37549776 Armenian
0.37553494 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.37563981 Assyrian
0.37717534 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.37753760 Iranian_Jew
0.37757211 Turkish_Trabzon
0.37857381 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.37877553 Armenian_B
0.37972656 Cypriot
0.38151462 Lebanese_Druze
0.38184453 Druze
0.38408613 Jordanian
0.38589709 Jordanian_B
0.38827287 Palestinian
0.39052507 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.39143339 Iraqi_Jew
0.39212631 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.39576623 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.39578246 BedouinA
0.40676402 Samaritan
0.40721330 Moroccan_North
0.41309881 Egyptian
0.41786211 Algerian
0.41876339 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.43044076 Moroccan
0.43286010 Saudi
0.43311595 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.43330231 BedouinB
0.45214308 Berber_MAR_TIZ


Distance of WHGs to West Asians/MENAs:

Distance to: WHG

0.42612373 Turkish_Istanbul
0.44338776 Adygei
0.44652606 Chechen
0.44668433 Turkish_Adana
0.44975992 Turkish_Kayseri
0.45070864 Azeri_Dagestan
0.45291086 Moroccan_North
0.45717563 Cypriot
0.45751045 Zaza_Dersim
0.45899459 Turkish_East
0.45902166 Azeri_Turkey
0.46041992 Azeri
0.46122943 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.46124261 Syrian
0.46308655 Iranian_Fars
0.46470563 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.46530028 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.46612578 Druze
0.46620315 Syrian_B
0.46635197 Jordanian
0.46674970 Kurdish
0.46741149 Lebanese_Druze
0.46807424 Jordanian_B
0.46842977 Iraqi_B
0.46922736 Georgian_Jew
0.46949444 Palestinian
0.46959263 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.47031513 Iranian_Lor
0.47056992 Algerian
0.47118429 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.47145519 Iraqi
0.47238862 Turkish_Trabzon
0.47293606 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.47405021 Armenian_B
0.47412154 Georgian_Laz
0.47437322 Armenian
0.47524253 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.47542956 BedouinA
0.47654182 Assyrian
0.47657813 Iranian_Jew
0.47898151 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.47931826 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.47986778 Samaritan
0.48101462 Georgian_Imer
0.48156317 Iraqi_Jew
0.48218457 Moroccan
0.48289262 Egyptian
0.49375842 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.49719925 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.49801156 BedouinB
0.49943007 Saudi


Compared to Selkups and Chukchis to SE Asians and Polynesians

Distance to: Selkup

0.28326715 Kusunda
0.28481306 Magar
0.28844378 Dungan
0.30045014 Gurung
0.30673536 Tripuri
0.30968137 Sherpa
0.31227477 Rai
0.31289532 Burmese
0.32664211 JPN_Jomon
0.33488629 Han_Shanxi
0.33621320 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.33723993 Japanese
0.33825721 Qiang_Danba
0.34150347 Thai
0.34668358 Aeta
0.34851166 Jehai
0.36255475 Tujia
0.36495201 Cambodian
0.36526086 Miao
0.36758325 Lahu
0.36837949 Malay
0.36962554 Han_Fujian
0.37392289 PYF_150BP
0.37476629 Vizayan
0.37484633 Filipino
0.37506130 She
0.37535607 Kinh_Vietnam
0.37995926 BRA_Botocudo
0.38010890 Dong_Guizhou
0.38136984 Bajo
0.38562088 Mulam
0.38638134 Dai
0.38730870 Zhuang
0.38858958 Tongan
0.39067207 Hawaiian
0.39164693 Indonesian_Bali
0.39336095 Htin_Mal
0.39385231 Maonan
0.39440427 Li
0.39576228 Mlabri
0.39605713 Rindi_Sumba
0.39868344 Indonesian_Java
0.40016918 Luzon
0.40396877 Atayal
0.40717263 Lebbo
0.41095028 Dusun
0.41191689 Ami
0.41563907 Igorot
0.41688073 Murut
0.42608380 Umak_Laran_Timor


Distance of Chukchi to SE Asians and Polynesians.


Distance to: Chukchi

0.27906903 Dungan
0.28211199 Sherpa
0.28212704 Gurung
0.28255251 Magar
0.28698272 Rai
0.29255957 Japanese
0.30024019 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.30026806 Han_Shanxi
0.30068444 Tripuri
0.30141388 Qiang_Danba
0.30228373 Kusunda
0.30318210 Burmese
0.31735029 JPN_Jomon
0.32733758 Tujia
0.33266152 Miao
0.33461253 Han_Fujian
0.33705073 Thai
0.34058772 Lahu
0.34162094 She
0.34999189 Dong_Guizhou
0.35075040 Kinh_Vietnam
0.35569198 Cambodian
0.35688177 Aeta
0.35703315 Mulam
0.35838305 Zhuang
0.36093267 Vizayan
0.36192469 Filipino
0.36278467 Malay
0.36291987 Dai
0.36537995 Jehai
0.36566569 Maonan
0.37022340 Li
0.37400671 Hawaiian
0.37434587 PYF_150BP
0.37502082 BRA_Botocudo
0.37612652 Bajo
0.37875812 Atayal
0.37907095 Htin_Mal
0.37983117 Luzon
0.38391638 Mlabri
0.38446504 Indonesian_Bali
0.38547604 Ami
0.38710811 Indonesian_Java
0.38848647 Tongan
0.39102348 Lebbo
0.39166985 Igorot
0.39191870 Rindi_Sumba
0.39345667 Dusun
0.39746078 Murut
0.42917231 Umak_Laran_Timor

[Komintasavalta]

Also Maris are about as close to Andamanese (Onge and Yarawa) than to some North Africans? And they're about as close to Mongolians as Sardinians, and as close to Altaians as Calabrians, and as close to English as Khakasses.

Distance to: Mari
.242 Khakass
.242 English
.281 Italian_Calabria
.285 Altaian
.320 Sardinian
.326 Mongolian
.328 Moroccan_North
.330 Libyan
.330 Buryat
.331 Tunisian
.332 Kalmyk
.332 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
.333 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
.334 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
.335 Tuvinian
.336 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
.337 Algerian
.338 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
.338 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
.341 Tunisian_Rbaya
.347 Tunisian_Douz
.350 Moroccan
.358 Onge
.358 Jarawa
.359 Berber_MAR_ERR
.373 Berber_MAR_TIZ
.402 Moroccan_South

I dunno if I'm doing this right, but I went here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm. Then I copied the coordinates for Maris from the source tab to the target tab, I went to the distance tab, changed the maximum output number to 999, and I clicked "RUN ALL".

[Token]

EHG who are the ancient hunter gatherer ancestors of modern Saamis and other Uralics and other ancient Hunter Gatherers like WHG are genetically much more divergent and distant from West Asians and MENAs even more than the Selkups are from SE Asians and Polynesians. This makes me think that the so called West Eurasian aka Caucasoid race doesn't even exist.

Modern-day West Eurasian = actual West Eurasian (Aurignacian, Gravettian, etc) + Basal Eurasian.

[Komintasavalta]

Ancient Saami individual from Levanluhta Iron Age site in Finland.

Pauli Rahkonen hypothesized that Levänluhta burials were not Saami but associated with speakers of "x-language" (which is his term for a language or languages possibly related to Meryan that used to be spoken in Finland) or Paleo-European (https://journal.fi/susa/article/view/70231/31260):


The water burials in the Levänluhta (the Isokyrö parish) and Käldamäki (the former Vöyri parish) sites in Ostrobothnia have been a great mystery for the scholars because of their unique character. The dating of the burials is 5th–8th centuries AD. Similar burials are not known elsewhere in Finland or in its neighbouring areas. The results of an onomastic study show that the earliest Finnish maritime toponyms appeared in the 9th century and the earliest Swedish toponyms in the late 13th century. This means that the burials most probably were not conducted by Finnish or Swedish speaking populations. In Vöyri, no obvious Saami toponyms are found, but in Isokyrö, a few Saami names can be recognized. Baltic toponyms are completely unknown. The words behind the names of the largest local rivers could possibly be derived from Proto-Finno-Permian, but alternatively it is possible that they represent obscure names of Paleo-European origin. Thus, the most probable linguistic groups behind the water burials might be speakers of the West Uralic x-language or Paleo-European.

[Zanzibar]

Also Maris are about as close to Andamanese (Onge and Yarawa) than to some North Africans? And they're about as close to Mongolians as Sardinians, and as close to Altaians as Calabrians, and as close to English as Khakasses.

Distance to: Mari
.242 Khakass
.242 English
.281 Italian_Calabria
.285 Altaian
.320 Sardinian
.326 Mongolian
.328 Moroccan_North
.330 Libyan
.330 Buryat
.331 Tunisian
.332 Kalmyk
.332 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
.333 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
.334 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
.335 Tuvinian
.336 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
.337 Algerian
.338 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
.338 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
.341 Tunisian_Rbaya
.347 Tunisian_Douz
.350 Moroccan
.358 Onge
.358 Jarawa
.359 Berber_MAR_ERR
.373 Berber_MAR_TIZ
.402 Moroccan_South

I dunno if I'm doing this right, but I went here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm. Then I copied the coordinates for Maris from the source tab to the target tab, I went to the distance tab, changed the maximum output number to 999, and I clicked "RUN ALL".

Can you also add some Near East wogs like Samaritan, Palestinian_Beit_Sahour, Iraqi_Jew, Lebanese_Christian_Maronite/Orthodox, Saudi Arabians, Bedouins and Paleosiberians like Chukchi, Itelmen and predominantly Mongoloid Uralics like Nenets, Selkup into the run?

I'm not sure if Mari are really genetically closer to Turkics and other Siberians than to Euros like English, Sardinians and to MENAs or not. I mean it could be true or geneticdriftness (Mari samples in G25 are very genetically drifted).

Can you also try the same run with Saami using the ancient Levanluhta and most Mongoloid shifted modern individuals?

[Zanzibar]

Also Maris are about as close to Andamanese (Onge and Yarawa) than to some North Africans? And they're about as close to Mongolians as Sardinians, and as close to Altaians as Calabrians, and as close to English as Khakasses.

Distance to: Mari
.242 Khakass
.242 English
.281 Italian_Calabria
.285 Altaian
.320 Sardinian
.326 Mongolian
.328 Moroccan_North
.330 Libyan
.330 Buryat
.331 Tunisian
.332 Kalmyk
.332 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
.333 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
.334 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
.335 Tuvinian
.336 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
.337 Algerian
.338 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
.338 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
.341 Tunisian_Rbaya
.347 Tunisian_Douz
.350 Moroccan
.358 Onge
.358 Jarawa
.359 Berber_MAR_ERR
.373 Berber_MAR_TIZ
.402 Moroccan_South

I dunno if I'm doing this right, but I went here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm. Then I copied the coordinates for Maris from the source tab to the target tab, I went to the distance tab, changed the maximum output number to 999, and I clicked "RUN ALL".

Can you also add some Near East wogs like Samaritan, Palestinian_Beit_Sahour, Iraqi_Jew, Lebanese_Christian_Maronite/Orthodox, Saudi Arabians, Bedouins and Paleosiberians like Chukchi, Itelmen and predominantly Mongoloid Uralics like Nenets, Selkup into the run?

I'm not sure if Mari are really genetically closer to Turkics and other Siberians than to Euros like English, Sardinians and to MENAs or not. I mean it could be true or geneticdriftness (Mari samples in G25 are very genetically drifted).

Can you also try the same run with Saami using the ancient Levanluhta and most Mongoloid shifted modern individuals?

[Zanzibar]

Modern-day West Eurasian = actual West Eurasian (Aurignacian, Gravettian, etc) + Basal Eurasian.

Does the Basal Eurasian in modern day Euros comes from Anatolian/EEF and CHG gene flow?

Would Euros be genetically much more divergent and distinct from West Asians/MENAs and Iranic Central Asians (Pashtun, Tajik, Baloch) if they didn't receive Neolithic, CHG admixtures?

Do Uralics including Saamis have the lowest Basal Eurasian among modern day predominantly West Eurasian populations and do you know how much?

[Zanzibar]

Pauli Rahkonen hypothesized that Levänluhta burials were not Saami but associated with speakers of "x-language" (which is his term for a language or languages possibly related to Meryan that used to be spoken in Finland) or Paleo-European (https://journal.fi/susa/article/view/70231/31260):


The water burials in the Levänluhta (the Isokyrö parish) and Käldamäki (the former Vöyri parish) sites in Ostrobothnia have been a great mystery for the scholars because of their unique character. The dating of the burials is 5th–8th centuries AD. Similar burials are not known elsewhere in Finland or in its neighbouring areas. The results of an onomastic study show that the earliest Finnish maritime toponyms appeared in the 9th century and the earliest Swedish toponyms in the late 13th century. This means that the burials most probably were not conducted by Finnish or Swedish speaking populations. In Vöyri, no obvious Saami toponyms are found, but in Isokyrö, a few Saami names can be recognized. Baltic toponyms are completely unknown. The words behind the names of the largest local rivers could possibly be derived from Proto-Finno-Permian, but alternatively it is possible that they represent obscure names of Paleo-European origin. Thus, the most probable linguistic groups behind the water burials might be speakers of the West Uralic x-language or Paleo-European.

Interesting. Here is the closest modern day individuals to the FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA238 sample:

Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA238

0.04508062 Saami:saami11
0.05182720 Saami:saami2
0.05278815 Saami:GS000035025
0.05930293 Saami:saami14
0.06246075 Khanty:776_R02C02
0.06276454 Saami:saami1
0.06333083 Saami:saami7
0.06406049 Saami:saami8
0.06689265 Khanty:799_R01C02
0.06733675 Saami:saami3
0.06964066 Saami:saami13
0.07129717 Saami:saami9
0.07410045 Saami:saami12
0.07568132 Saami:saami5
0.07585497 Saami:GS000035026
0.07785197 Selkup:Selkup105
0.07808575 Udmurt:udmurd15
0.08070767 Udmurt:udmurd8
0.08149774 Ket:570_R02C02
0.08165574 Udmurt:154_R02C01
0.08209370 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola6
0.08233342 Udmurt:udmurd1
0.08273913 Udmurt:154_R02C02
0.08277966 Udmurt:udmurd2
0.08286960 Ket:586_R01C02
0.08291852 Udmurt:153_R02C02
0.08292329 Udmurt:169_R02C02
0.08307155 Udmurt:169_R02C01
0.08346318 Udmurt:udmurd14
0.08357338 Saami:saami6
0.08386390 Udmurt:152_R02C01
0.08405721 Mansi:Mansi43
0.08475512 Udmurt:139_R01C02
0.08514367 Udmurt:udmurd12
0.08552864 Udmurt:156_R02C01
0.08560400 Udmurt:udmurd16
0.08575189 Udmurt:520_R01C02
0.08602956 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola25
0.08607700 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola40
0.08706279 Udmurt:520_R02C01
0.08813688 Udmurt:519_R01C02
0.08821817 Udmurt:519_R02C02
0.08872290 Udmurt:152_R01C01
0.08875284 Udmurt:udmurd11
0.08881971 Udmurt:udmurd10
0.08902090 Udmurt:154_R01C02
0.08974943 Udmurt:153_R02C01
0.09032363 Saami:saami4
0.09063292 Udmurt:520_R01C01
0.09082275 Tatar_Siberian:STA-112


Closest modern average pops to the individual:

Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA238

0.06452511 Saami
0.08816461 Udmurt
0.09845741 Mari
0.09868836 Bashkir
0.10332051 Besermyan
0.10518009 Chuvash
0.10917861 Yukagir_Forest
0.11131751 Saami_Kola
0.11419957 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.11509388 Tatar_Siberian
0.12775315 Mansi
0.12785135 Tlingit
0.12986839 Tatar_Kazan
0.13125674 Komi
0.13602840 Tatar_Lipka
0.14118498 Khanty
0.14620200 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.15483939 Tatar_Mishar
0.15623486 Ket
0.16210439 Nogai
0.16781581 Russian_Pinega
0.16876687 Uzbek
0.17504598 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.17685448 Turkmen
0.17735677 Vepsian
0.18007028 Finnish_East
0.18088604 Tubalar
0.18105729 Karakalpak
0.18137966 Karelian
0.18277274 Greenlander_West
0.18567813 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.18739785 Uygur
0.18984470 Shor_Mountain
0.19136987 Mordovian
0.19204479 Shor_Khakassia
0.19301474 Hazara
0.19329427 Shor
0.19438868 Russian_Kostroma
0.19667819 Ingrian
0.19852037 Finnish
0.20404302 Tajik
0.20479483 Kazakh
0.20616978 Maori
0.20758084 Cossack_Kuban
0.21037259 Khakass
0.21143072 Tajik_Shugnan
0.21434925 Tajik_Rushan
0.21771446 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.21819630 Russian_Tver
0.22032130 Selkup


Seems to be either an ancient Saami, Udmurt or Mari (more likely the former two).

[Token]

Does the Basal Eurasian in modern day Euros comes from Anatolian/EEF and CHG gene flow?
Yes.


Would Euros be genetically much more divergent and distinct from West Asians/MENAs and Iranic Central Asians (Pashtun, Tajik, Baloch) if they didn't receive Neolithic, CHG admixtures?
Obviously, you've shown it yourself in your WHG and EHG runs.


Do Uralics including Saamis have the lowest Basal Eurasian among modern day predominantly West Eurasian populations and do you know how much?
Yes but not by much. Saami are Germanic + Baltic + BOO-related, in this order of importance. BOO is EHG + Neo-Siberian + Baltic.

[Zanzibar]

Yes.


Obviously, you've shown it yourself in your WHG and EHG runs.


Yes but not by much. Saami are Germanic + Baltic + BOO-related, in this order of importance. BOO is EHG + Neo-Siberian + Baltic.

I see. Do you know the Basal Eurasian estimates for the Saami and other Uralics? Do Mari, Udmurt have less Basal Eurasian than Saami?

Also what Germanic and Baltic samples represented that ancestries of the Saami best?

[Zoro]

EHG who are the ancient hunter gatherer ancestors of modern Saamis and other Uralics and other ancient Hunter Gatherers like WHG are genetically much more divergent and distant from West Asians and MENAs even more than the Selkups are from SE Asians and Polynesians. This makes me think that the so called West Eurasian aka Caucasoid race doesn't even exist.

Just look at the distance of EHGs and WHGs to their fellow Caucasoid the West Asians/MENAs, its almost if they are totally different unrelated race lol!! Komintasavalta and other guys, do you wished that Uralics were still Hunter Gatherers+ Siberian? You would be genetically so distant from "fellow Caucasoids" lmao. :thumb001:

Distance of EHG to West Asians/MENAs:



Why not do an apples-to-apples comparison. You posted the distance of West Asians to EHG & WHG but didn't post the distance of modern Europeans to EHG & WHG ?

Also, I always take G25 distance results with a grain of salt so out of curiosity I wanted to check using formal stats (DSTATS) whether Saami and Mari shares more derived alleles with West Asians or with Japanese,Burmese, Ami compared to Human Ancestor. I should have the results within an hour.

[Zoro]

Another thing that complicates distance calculations is Basal Eurasian. So on the surface if we did a derived allele calculation of EHG vs Iranics & N Europeans using Human Ancestor then EHG would share more derived alleles with N Europeans than Iranics but the question is how many of those extra derived alleles that EHG has with Europeans are due to both sharing various WHG ancestors (EHG is at least 25% WHG).

The other question would be if we were to subtract those derived alleles that N Europeans share with EHG due to both having WHG ancestors how many derived alleles are we left with that N Europeans share with EHG due to geneflow from EHG to N Europeans via Steppe?

We can subtract those common old shared alleles between N Europeans and EHG due to common very old WHG ancestors using the following DSTAT

D (Iranics, N Europeans, EHG; BICHON-WHG). This DSTAT will calculate number of derived alleles shared between:

1- EHG & N Europeans to the exclusion of Bichon-WHG and
2- Iranics & EHG to the exclusion of Bichon-WHG

whereas D (Iranics, N Europeans ; EHG, Ancestor or Khomani-San) will calculate derived alleles to exclusion of Khomani and Ancestor. This one would clearly show more derived alleles N Europeans-EHG vs Iranics-EHG due to the above.

Notice that we shouldn't use Mbuti anymore because of that paper that showed backmigration to Africa during Paleolithic affected Mbuti more than Khoisan and Jo-Hoan.

In other words the paper showed that Mbuti and other SSA share some ancestry with W Eurasians due to backmigration to Africa during Paleolithic but Khoisan were less affected by this backmigration

[Token]

Also what Germanic and Baltic samples represented that ancestries of the Saami best?
I tried some models. The Scandinavian outlier from Iron Age Levanluhta is the best fit and it suffices to model modern-day Saami. In fact some of the Germanic loanwords in Finnic are very archaic.


Levanluhta_IA
Levanluhta_IA_o 0.501 ±0.0772
Russia_Bolshoy 0.499 ±0.0772
p-value: 0.610

Saami
Levanluhta_IA_o 0.507 ±0.0479
Russia_Bolshoy 0.493 ±0.0479
p-value: 0.0986

Using Baltic_IA instead we get p-value < 0.05, thus the model is rejected. This suggests that the western ancestry in Saami is at least predominantly Germanic rather than Baltic, but it doesn't proves that they have no Baltic ancestry. Most of their Baltic might have come from mixing with Finns, and Bolshoy already includes quite a bit of it. Davidski reached the same conclusions here (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/12/on-trail-of-proto-uralic-speakers-work.html).

[Zanzibar]

Why not do an apples-to-apples comparison. You posted the distance of West Asians to EHG & WHG but didn't post the distance of modern Europeans to EHG & WHG ?

Also, I always take G25 distance results with a grain of salt so out of curiosity I wanted to check using formal stats (DSTATS) whether Saami and Mari shares more derived alleles with West Asians or with Japanese,Burmese, Ami compared to Human Ancestor. I should have the results within an hour.

Also can you checked using formal stats to see if the Saami, Mari are genetically closer to West Asians, North Africans, Iranic Central Asians or are Siberians like Tuvans, Altaians, Yakuts, Kazakhs closer to SE Asians and Polynesians/Micronesians?

Here is a comparison of the genetic distance between WHG, EHG and modern day Euros:

Distance to: RUS_Karelia_HG

0.18110433 Saami
0.18258452 Finnish_East
0.18343524 Russian_Pinega
0.18544009 Komi
0.19425075 Finnish
0.19549226 Udmurt
0.19996518 Besermyan
0.20279251 Estonian
0.20289530 Latvian
0.20702632 Lithuanian_PZ
0.21305708 Lithuanian_RA
0.21465456 Chuvash
0.21621726 Lithuanian_PA
0.21883958 Russian_Kursk
0.22170623 Belarusian
0.22266672 Russian_Orel
0.23059996 Ukrainian
0.23219511 Mari
0.23240214 Polish
0.23337958 Swedish
0.23747660 Norwegian
0.23831825 Icelandic
0.24275730 Danish
0.24381890 Czech
0.24700732 Irish
0.24769205 Dutch
0.25313320 English
0.25375580 Hungarian
0.25575233 German
0.26029880 Croatian
0.26534645 Bashkir
0.27200012 French_Nord
0.27747013 French_Paris
0.27763412 Swiss_German
0.28011404 Serbian
0.28039417 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.28686120 Romanian
0.28927058 French_Auvergne
0.29279471 Bulgarian
0.30621318 Basque_Spanish
0.30721220 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.30918764 Spanish_Aragon
0.30936802 Portuguese
0.31750612 Italian_Bergamo
0.31969529 Albanian
0.32226139 Greek_Thessaly
0.34729225 Maltese
0.35040822 Greek_Crete
0.35335429 Italian_Calabria
0.38450097 Sardinian


Distance to: WHG

0.30256298 Latvian
0.30368180 Lithuanian_PZ
0.30507480 Estonian
0.30892228 Finnish_East
0.31001456 Finnish
0.31174993 Lithuanian_RA
0.31311236 Lithuanian_PA
0.31648685 Russian_Pinega
0.31688425 Belarusian
0.31787222 Swedish
0.32077710 Icelandic
0.32173021 Polish
0.32356997 Russian_Kursk
0.32462027 Danish
0.32468724 Russian_Orel
0.32505420 Norwegian
0.32542886 Ukrainian
0.32935980 Czech
0.32957109 Irish
0.32985519 English
0.33017461 Dutch
0.33138650 Basque_Spanish
0.33320971 German
0.33948614 Hungarian
0.34215100 French_Nord
0.34288240 French_Paris
0.34312531 Croatian
0.34609766 French_Auvergne
0.34633846 Komi
0.34643676 Swiss_German
0.35269191 Saami
0.35290181 Spanish_Aragon
0.35938794 Portuguese
0.36156116 Serbian
0.36634707 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.36685576 Romanian
0.37274750 Bulgarian
0.37548627 Italian_Bergamo
0.37970937 Besermyan
0.38116231 Chuvash
0.38644566 Udmurt
0.39127214 Sardinian
0.39336431 Albanian
0.39716560 Greek_Thessaly
0.40594907 Mari
0.41745356 Maltese
0.41856347 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.42512679 Italian_Calabria
0.42847145 Greek_Crete
0.43595823 Bashkir

[Token]

Also can you checked using formal stats to see if the Saami, Mari are genetically closer to West Asians, North Africans, Iranic Central Asians or are Siberians like Tuvans, Altaians, Yakuts, Kazakhs closer to SE Asians and Polynesians/Micronesians?
Spoiler: East Siberians are closer to Austronesians than Saami are to West Asians. That should be intuitive.

[Zanzibar]

Another thing that complicates distance calculations is Basal Eurasian. So on the surface if we did a derived allele calculation of EHG vs Iranics & N Europeans using Human Ancestor then EHG would share more derived alleles with N Europeans than Iranics but the question is how many of those extra derived alleles that EHG has with Europeans are due to both sharing various WHG ancestors (EHG is at least 25% WHG).

The other question would be if we were to subtract those derived alleles that N Europeans share with EHG due to both having WHG ancestors how many derived alleles are we left with that N Europeans share with EHG due to geneflow from EHG to N Europeans via Steppe?

We can subtract those common old shared alleles between N Europeans and EHG due to common very old WHG ancestors using the following DSTAT

D (Iranics, N Europeans, EHG; BICHON-WHG). This DSTAT will calculate number of derived alleles shared between:

1- EHG & N Europeans to the exclusion of Bichon-WHG and
2- Iranics & EHG to the exclusion of Bichon-WHG

whereas D (Iranics, N Europeans ; EHG, Ancestor or Khomani-San) will calculate derived alleles to exclusion of Khomani and Ancestor. This one would clearly show more derived alleles N Europeans-EHG vs Iranics-EHG due to the above.

Notice that we shouldn't use Mbuti anymore because of that paper that showed backmigration to Africa during Paleolithic affected Mbuti more than Khoisan and Jo-Hoan.

In other words the paper showed that Mbuti and other SSA share some ancestry with W Eurasians due to backmigration to Africa during Paleolithic but Khoisan were less affected by this backmigration

Can you please run the formal stats for the distance of EHG and Scandinavians, other Euros vs distance of EHG and Iranics?

Basal Eurasian is the ancestry that Mbuti, other SSAs shared with West Eurasians right?

[Zanzibar]

Spoiler: East Siberians are closer to Austronesians than Saami are to West Asians. That should be intuitive.

Wow I'm surprised. Is this also the same case for other Uralics? By East Siberians do you also mean groups like Tuvans, Buryats, Yakuts, Northern Tungusics like Evenks or Paleo-siberians like Chukchi, Itelmen? Ket, Selkup are not considered East Siberians in this case right?

But then why do G25 shows the distance between Saamis to be closer to West Asians than Yakuts, Evenks are to Austronesians?

Is this due to shared Southern Coastal East Asian ancestry (something ancestral to SE Asians)?

Are most other Euros genetically closer to West Asians than East Siberians are to Austronesians?

[Zoro]

Here are the results:

I used about 10 times as many overlapping SNPs as the G25. As you can see I used about 900,000 to 1,000,000 SNPs for the comparisons.

Saami clearly shares many more derived alleles with Kurds and Turks than with SE Asians (Z value).

BABA column shows how many derived alleles Saami shares with W Asians
ABBA column shows how many derived alleles Saami shares with SE Asians.

The tables are sorted with most derived alleles shared with W Asians


<colgroup><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="138"><col width="100"><col width="71"><col width="71"><col width="71"><col width="71"><col width="71"></colgroup><tbody>
West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.026
5.4
63,769
60,515
1,025,603


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.025
4.5
53,832
51,168
885,015


Turkish
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.022
4.0
63,595
60,857
1,025,578


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.021
3.1
53,854
51,653
884,988


Turkish
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
2.7
63,237
61,212
1,025,652


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
3.1
63,235
61,212
1,025,692


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.015
2.3
53,495
51,917
885,053


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.015
2.4
54,773
53,160
904,946


West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.024
6.1
65,750
62,731
1,071,414


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.020
4.3
54,890
52,776
920,967


Turkish
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.019
5.4
65,575
63,116
1,071,396


Turkish
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.016
4.0
65,290
63,180
1,071,463


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.015
3.6
65,213
63,336
1,071,502


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.014
3.3
54,897
53,349
920,949


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.011
2.8
54,650
53,416
921,007


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.010
2.5
54,601
53,546
921,040

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

[Zanzibar]

Here are the results:

I used about 10 times as many overlapping SNPs as the G25. As you can see I used about 900,000 to 1,000,000 SNPs for the comparisons.

Saami clearly shares many more derived alleles with Kurds and Turks than with SE Asians (Z value).

BABA column shows how many derived alleles Saami shares with W Asians
ABBA column shows how many derived alleles Saami shares with SE Asians.

The tables are sorted with most derived alleles shared with W Asians


<colgroup><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="138"><col width="100"><col width="71"><col width="71"><col width="71"><col width="71"><col width="71"></colgroup><tbody>
West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.026
5.4
63,769
60,515
1,025,603


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.025
4.5
53,832
51,168
885,015


Turkish
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.022
4.0
63,595
60,857
1,025,578


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.021
3.1
53,854
51,653
884,988


Turkish
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
2.7
63,237
61,212
1,025,652


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
3.1
63,235
61,212
1,025,692


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.015
2.3
53,495
51,917
885,053


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.015
2.4
54,773
53,160
904,946


West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.024
6.1
65,750
62,731
1,071,414


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.020
4.3
54,890
52,776
920,967


Turkish
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.019
5.4
65,575
63,116
1,071,396


Turkish
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.016
4.0
65,290
63,180
1,071,463


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.015
3.6
65,213
63,336
1,071,502


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.014
3.3
54,897
53,349
920,949


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.011
2.8
54,650
53,416
921,007


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.010
2.5
54,601
53,546
921,040

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

If Saamis shared more derived alleles with Turks and Kurds, does that mean they are genetically closer to them than to SE Asians? Could that be due to the East Eurasian ancestry in both Saamis and Turks, Kurds?

How about other West Asians/MENAs?

Can you also do a run whether Saamis are closer to West Asians or to Siberians and Central Asians like Kazakh, Khakass, Selkup, Nenets, Tuvan, Buryat?

[Zoro]

Can you please run the formal stats for the distance of EHG and Scandinavians, other Euros vs distance of EHG and Iranics?

Basal Eurasian is the ancestry that Mbuti, other SSAs shared with West Eurasians right?

I'll do that in the future if I have time in the future. Yes,SSAs and Taforalt is closer to Basal Eurasian than to main Eurasian and is what brings W Asians closer to Africans.

To be fair though just like common EHG-WHG old ancestry brings EHG closer to Europeans, common ANE-EHG ancestry brings Iranics closer to EHG so it's sort of complicated but I think rank 0 qpWave using at least 15 references should share some light. I'll try to get to it in the next week because each run takes for ever when you use 1,000,000 SNPs and so many references

[Zoro]

If Saamis shared more derived alleles with Turks and Kurds, does that mean they are genetically closer to them than to SE Asians? Could that be due to the East Eurasian ancestry in both Saamis and Turks, Kurds?

How about other West Asians/MENAs?

Can you also do a run whether Saamis are closer to West Asians or to Siberians and Central Asians like Kazakh, Khakass, Selkup, Nenets, Tuvan, Buryat?

Ok I have time for one more run since it takes an hour. Which W Asian 2 pops would you like. Jordanians?

[Zanzibar]

I tried some models. The Scandinavian outlier from Iron Age Levanluhta is the best fit and it suffices to model modern-day Saami. In fact some of the Germanic loanwords in Finnic are very archaic.


Levanluhta_IA
Levanluhta_IA_o 0.501 ±0.0772
Russia_Bolshoy 0.499 ±0.0772
p-value: 0.610

Saami
Levanluhta_IA_o 0.507 ±0.0479
Russia_Bolshoy 0.493 ±0.0479
p-value: 0.0986

Using Baltic_IA instead we get p-value < 0.05, thus the model is rejected. This suggests that the western ancestry in Saami is at least predominantly Germanic rather than Baltic, but it doesn't proves that they have no Baltic ancestry. Most of their Baltic might have come from mixing with Finns, and Bolshoy already includes quite a bit of it. Davidski reached the same conclusions here (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/12/on-trail-of-proto-uralic-speakers-work.html).

Interesting. How much Baltic do the Saami have then? Also how do the Saami received their Germanic ancestry? I don't know anything about the history and migrations in Scandinavia.

In the case of other Uralics like Udmurt, Mari, Komi, are most of their Western ancestry Slavic-like?

[Zanzibar]

Ok I have time for one more run since it takes an hour. Which W Asian 2 pops would you like. Jordanians?

Can you do more than 2 West Asian pops or is that the limit?

How about Saudi Arabians and Palestinian_Christians?

[Zoro]

Can you do more than 2 West Asian pops or is that the limit?

How about Saudi Arabians and Palestinian_Christians?

I'm using the Harvard 1240K dataset. There's no Saudis or Palestinian Christians so I used Jordanians and Iraqi Jews. Should have results soon

[Token]

But then why do G25 shows the distance between Saamis to be closer to West Asians than Yakuts, Evenks are to Austronesian?
The topology of Global25 is distorted by population-specific drift due to effective population size.

[Zanzibar]

The topology of Global25 is distorted by population-specific drift due to effective population size.

By East Siberians being closer to Austronesians than Saamis are to West Asians, do you also include Paleo-Siberians like Chukchi, Koryak, Itelmen? Would Central Siberians like Ket, Selkup also be closer to Austronesian than Saamis are to West Asians?

[Zoro]

Here are the results:

I used about 10 times as many overlapping SNPs as the G25. As you can see I used about 900,000 to 1,000,000 SNPs for the comparisons.

Saami clearly shares many more derived alleles with Kurds and Turks than with SE Asians (Z value).

BABA column shows how many derived alleles Saami shares with W Asians
ABBA column shows how many derived alleles Saami shares with SE Asians.

The tables are sorted with most derived alleles shared with W Asians


<tbody>
West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.026
5.4
63,769
60,515
1,025,603


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.025
4.5
53,832
51,168
885,015


Turkish
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.022
4.0
63,595
60,857
1,025,578


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.021
3.1
53,854
51,653
884,988


Turkish
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
2.7
63,237
61,212
1,025,652


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
3.1
63,235
61,212
1,025,692


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.015
2.3
53,495
51,917
885,053


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.015
2.4
54,773
53,160
904,946


West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.024
6.1
65,750
62,731
1,071,414


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.020
4.3
54,890
52,776
920,967


Turkish
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.019
5.4
65,575
63,116
1,071,396


Turkish
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.016
4.0
65,290
63,180
1,071,463


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.015
3.6
65,213
63,336
1,071,502


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.014
3.3
54,897
53,349
920,949


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.011
2.8
54,650
53,416
921,007


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.010
2.5
54,601
53,546
921,040

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

Here you go

The red shaded ones are where Saami shares more derived alleles with SE Asians or the difference is insignificant. The green shaded ones is where Saami shares more derived alleles with W Asians

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="147"><col width="100"><col width="147"><col width="100"><col width="65"><col width="65"><col width="65"><col width="65"><col width="65"></colgroup><tbody>
West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Jew_Iraqi
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.020
4.1
63,994
61,481
1,025,616


Jew_Iraqi
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
2.7
63,929
61,929
1,025,583


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.010
1.7
63,691
62,409
1,025,658


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.010
1.9
63,670
62,384
1,025,699


Jordanian
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.002
0.4
63,285
63,074
1,025,658


Jordanian
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
-0.002
-0.4
63,330
63,636
1,025,629


Jordanian
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
-0.008
-1.4
62,836
63,858
1,025,704


Jordanian
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
-0.008
-1.6
62,876
63,898
1,025,747


West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Jew_Iraqi
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.012
3.1
65,543
63,948
1,071,435


Jew_Iraqi
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.008
2.2
65,401
64,367
1,071,410


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.005
1.2
65,373
64,687
1,071,478


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.004
0.9
65,267
64,812
1,071,520


Jordanian
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.003
-0.7
65,055
65,385
1,071,474


Jordanian
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.007
-1.8
65,079
65,973
1,071,449


Jordanian
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.010
-2.1
64,759
66,001
1,071,519


Jordanian
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.011
-2.8
64,708
66,180
1,071,560

</tbody>

[vbnetkhio]

Saamis, other Uralics seem genetically as faraway from MENAs and West Asians as much as Siberians/some Central Asians like Tuvinians, Altaians, Kazakhs are to SE Asians and Polynesians (they are predominantly Mongoloid with significant Australoid ancestry).


in G25 there seems to be a Finnic "component" peaking in Mari, and an Ugric "component" peaking in Khanty. Saami have both of these componets so it increases their distance.

[Zanzibar]

Here you go

The red shaded ones are where Saami shares more derived alleles with SE Asians or the difference is insignificant. The green shaded ones is where Saami shares more derived alleles with W Asians

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="147"><col width="100"><col width="147"><col width="100"><col width="65"><col width="65"><col width="65"><col width="65"><col width="65"></colgroup><tbody>
West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Jew_Iraqi
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.020
4.1
63,994
61,481
1,025,616


Jew_Iraqi
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.016
2.7
63,929
61,929
1,025,583


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.010
1.7
63,691
62,409
1,025,658


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.010
1.9
63,670
62,384
1,025,699


Jordanian
Burmese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
0.002
0.4
63,285
63,074
1,025,658


Jordanian
Ami.DG
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
-0.002
-0.4
63,330
63,636
1,025,629


Jordanian
Japanese
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
-0.008
-1.4
62,836
63,858
1,025,704


Jordanian
Japanese_1000G
Finland_Saami_Modern
Ancestor.REF
-0.008
-1.6
62,876
63,898
1,025,747


West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Jew_Iraqi
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.012
3.1
65,543
63,948
1,071,435


Jew_Iraqi
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.008
2.2
65,401
64,367
1,071,410


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.005
1.2
65,373
64,687
1,071,478


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
0.004
0.9
65,267
64,812
1,071,520


Jordanian
Burmese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.003
-0.7
65,055
65,385
1,071,474


Jordanian
Ami.DG
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.007
-1.8
65,079
65,973
1,071,449


Jordanian
Japanese
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.010
-2.1
64,759
66,001
1,071,519


Jordanian
Japanese_1000G
Saami
Ancestor.REF
-0.011
-2.8
64,708
66,180
1,071,560

</tbody>

Would this means that the Saami are genetically closer to East/SE Asians than to Jordanians or equal distance. On the other hand, Saamis are closer to Iraqi Jews than to SE Asians?

But I noticed that even in the previous runs, the Saami shares slightly more alleles with Turks and Kurds than to SE Asians. For example in one run for the distance of Finland Saami to Kurd Iraq and Ami, the BABA was around 53k while the ABBA was approx 51k. Does this means that the genetic distance is not that big for Finland Saami to Kurd Iraq and Finland Saami to Ami?

Can you also do one for the Mari, Udmurt and Bashkir whether they shared more alleles with W Asians or E Asians?

If you run most other Europeans, would the BABA be much much higher in value than the ABBA in allele sharing?

[Zoro]

Would this means that the Saami are genetically closer to East/SE Asians than to Jordanians or equal distance. On the other hand, Saamis are closer to Iraqi Jews than to SE Asians?

But I noticed that even in the previous runs, the Saami shares slightly more alleles with Turks and Kurds than to SE Asians. For example in one run for the distance of Finland Saami to Kurd Iraq and Ami, the BABA was around 53k while the ABBA was approx 51k. Does this means that the genetic distance is not that big for Finland Saami to Kurd Iraq and Finland Saami to Ami?

Can you also do one for the Mari, Udmurt and Bashkir whether they shared more alleles with W Asians or E Asians?

If you run most other Europeans, would the BABA be much much higher in value than the ABBA in allele sharing?

Yes it means that Saami are closer to SE Asians than to Jordanians. Ok so yes Saami are significantly closer to Kurds and Turks than to SE Asians but this does not give you the total distance just the amount of derived alleles. The higher the number of derived alleles 2 pops share the closer their distance so distances are relative to other pops.

Ok, I'll do just one more but that would have to be it as I have other things I need to do. I'll do Bashkirs.


So BABA is what column 1 shares with column 3 and ABBA is what column 2 shares with column 3

[vbnetkhio]

Saamis, other Uralics seem genetically as faraway from MENAs and West Asians as much as Siberians/some Central Asians like Tuvinians, Altaians, Kazakhs are to SE Asians and Polynesians (they are predominantly Mongoloid with significant Australoid ancestry).

Distance to: Saami

0.21965630 Turkish_Istanbul
0.23064760 Chechen
0.23429169 Turkish_Adana
0.23479057 Azeri_Dagestan
0.23533737 Adygei
0.24101451 Turkish_Kayseri
0.24396832 Azeri
0.24675200 Azeri_Turkey
0.25070430 Iranian_Fars
0.25421206 Turkish_East
0.25499602 Zaza_Dersim
0.25572831 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.26423832 Iranian_Lor
0.26454310 Kurdish
0.26807413 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.27485559 Syrian
0.27865391 Iraqi_B
0.27948386 Syrian_B
0.28005015 Iraqi
0.28056025 Georgian_Jew
0.28073841 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.28190573 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.28540120 Cypriot
0.28554859 Assyrian
0.28561185 Georgian_Laz
0.28649552 Armenian
0.28668105 Turkish_Trabzon
0.28728552 Iranian_Jew
0.28792844 Druze
0.28795983 Armenian_B
0.28796670 Jordanian
0.28796837 Lebanese_Druze
0.28900593 Georgian_Imer
0.28944965 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.29026068 Jordanian_B
0.29253684 Palestinian
0.29632170 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.29785188 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.30020257 Iraqi_Jew
0.30033705 BedouinA
0.30205517 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.31151678 Samaritan
0.31567485 Moroccan_North
0.31721780 Egyptian
0.32629611 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.32774029 Algerian
0.33794440 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.33960721 Saudi
0.34040927 BedouinB
0.34174855 Moroccan
0.36534483 Berber_MAR_TIZ (they have good amount of SSA admixture)


Compared to several Siberians such as Tuvinians to SE Asians and Polynesians

Distance to: Tuvinian

0.18089873 Dungan (ethnic Hui Chinese from Central Asia)
0.18815011 Magar (Tibeto-Burman from Nepal)
0.19068365 Gurung (Tibeto-Burman from Nepal)
0.19272915 Sherpa
0.19813545 Rai (Tibeto-Burman from Nepal)
0.21170096 Kusunda (from Nepal)
0.21443255 Tripuri
0.21879619 Han_Shanxi
0.21923734 Burmese
0.22029273 Japanese
0.22060356 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.22072536 Qiang_Danba
0.25441623 Tujia
0.25531797 JPN_Jomon (ancient Jomon from Japan)
0.25935939 Miao
0.26166306 Thai
0.26338888 Han_Fujian
0.27038068 Lahu
0.27163578 She (tribe from Southern China)
0.28266053 Dong_Guizhou (Tai-Kradai tribe from Southern China)
0.28321560 Kinh_Vietnam
0.28552902 Cambodian
0.28709165 Aeta (Negrito from Philippines)
0.29059766 Mulam (Tai-Kradai tribe from Southern China)
0.29238857 Filipino
0.29305191 Zhuang
0.29320402 Malay
0.29486412 Vizayan
0.29629231 Jehai (Negrito from Malaysia)
0.29670556 Dai
0.30101427 Maonan (Tai Kradai tribe from Southern China)
0.30536711 Li (Tai Kradai tribe from Hainan Island in Southern China)
0.30676043 PYF_150BP (individual from French Polynesia)
0.30751590 Hawaiian
0.31187399 BRA_Botocudo (ancient Polynesians)
0.31189604 Bajo (sea nomads from Indonesia and Philippines)
0.31415513 Htin_Mal (ethnic group from mainland SE Asia)
0.31554210 Atayal
0.31616183 Luzon
0.31943597 Mlabri (SE Asian isolated tribal group)
0.32109355 Indonesian_Bali
0.32446274 Tongan
0.32575276 Indonesian_Java
0.32773193 Ami
0.33066199 Rindi_Sumba (ethnic group from Sumba Island, Indonesia)
0.33131425 Igorot (Austronesian hill tribe from Philippines)
0.33164248 Lebbo (Austronesian from Borneo)
0.33174903 Dusun (Austronesian from Borneo)
0.33680433 Murut (Austronesian from Borneo)
0.37608153 Umak_Laran_Timor (tribe from Timor, Indonesia- heavy Papuan admixture)


Or the distance of Mari to MENAs

Distance to: Mari

0.23674137 Turkish_Istanbul
0.24500039 Turkish_Adana
0.24638117 Azeri_Dagestan
0.24653910 Chechen
0.25117984 Adygei
0.25169494 Turkish_Kayseri
0.25230159 Azeri
0.25523761 Azeri_Turkey
0.25924072 Iranian_Fars
0.26443575 Turkish_East
0.26579230 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.26741645 Zaza_Dersim
0.27181894 Iranian_Lor
0.27362903 Kurdish
0.27424569 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.28371460 Syrian
0.28699424 Iraqi_B
0.28705428 Iraqi
0.28774159 Syrian_B
0.28984775 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.29026239 Georgian_Jew
0.29046929 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.29362239 Assyrian
0.29408624 Iranian_Jew
0.29531222 Armenian
0.29578113 Georgian_Laz
0.29646935 Jordanian
0.29700127 Turkish_Trabzon
0.29721275 Armenian_B
0.29736074 Cypriot
0.29764291 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.29794761 Lebanese_Druze
0.29818010 Druze
0.29860447 Georgian_Imer
0.29882487 Jordanian_B
0.30052173 Palestinian
0.30572447 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.30654011 Iraqi_Jew
0.30700700 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.30751509 BedouinA
0.31211995 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.31945449 Samaritan
0.32267646 Egyptian
0.32792756 Moroccan_North
0.33570928 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.33686702 Algerian
0.34226651 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.34493404 Saudi
0.34655321 BedouinB
0.34956482 Moroccan
0.37342749 Berber_MAR_TIZ


And compare them to the Kazakh to SE Asians and Polynesians:

Distance to: Kazakh

0.17733597 Kusunda
0.18673764 Magar
0.19243947 Dungan
0.21109642 Gurung
0.21220113 Tripuri
0.22145928 Burmese
0.22830478 Sherpa
0.22855464 Rai
0.23915680 JPN_Jomon
0.25128653 Thai
0.25751247 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.25833159 Han_Shanxi
0.26079063 Jehai
0.26164166 Qiang_Danba
0.26283305 Aeta
0.26468925 Japanese
0.28525247 Cambodian
0.28561314 Tujia
0.28662934 Malay
0.28667102 Miao
0.28860099 Lahu
0.29185482 Han_Fujian
0.29449091 PYF_150BP
0.29451758 Filipino
0.29717628 Vizayan
0.29777245 Kinh_Vietnam
0.29819938 She
0.30265826 BRA_Botocudo
0.30346847 Dong_Guizhou
0.30525635 Bajo
0.30953406 Mulam
0.31010467 Dai
0.31203535 Zhuang
0.31253998 Hawaiian
0.31323688 Tongan
0.31537221 Indonesian_Bali
0.31758039 Htin_Mal
0.31821774 Maonan
0.32025707 Li
0.32044891 Rindi_Sumba
0.32226699 Mlabri
0.32354906 Indonesian_Java
0.32545087 Luzon
0.33016959 Atayal
0.33418341 Lebbo
0.33977038 Dusun
0.34245328 Ami
0.34554420 Igorot
0.34582346 Murut
0.36121986 Umak_Laran_Timor


The distance most Siberian-shifted modern Saami individual to MENAs and West Asians:

Distance to: Saami:GS000035025

0.23940061 Turkish_Istanbul
0.25026030 Chechen
0.25237518 Turkish_Adana
0.25272563 Azeri_Dagestan
0.25442540 Adygei
0.25918302 Turkish_Kayseri
0.26116496 Azeri
0.26299440 Azeri_Turkey
0.26764571 Iranian_Fars
0.27262376 Turkish_East
0.27348076 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.27358812 Zaza_Dersim
0.28104854 Iranian_Lor
0.28283667 Kurdish
0.28416759 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.29229055 Syrian
0.29603097 Iraqi
0.29643926 Iraqi_B
0.29675537 Syrian_B
0.29856668 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.29895642 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.29924464 Georgian_Jew
0.30392856 Assyrian
0.30447119 Georgian_Laz
0.30479861 Cypriot
0.30491843 Iranian_Jew
0.30500936 Armenian
0.30537244 Jordanian
0.30554206 Turkish_Trabzon
0.30637849 Lebanese_Druze
0.30665645 Druze
0.30675187 Armenian_B
0.30705503 Georgian_Imer
0.30745884 Jordanian_B
0.30803768 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.30960990 Palestinian
0.31489073 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.31629903 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.31645597 BedouinA
0.31778151 Iraqi_Jew
0.32154291 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.32873781 Samaritan
0.33017529 Moroccan_North
0.33136826 Egyptian
0.33960763 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.34024103 Algerian
0.35323142 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.35356470 Moroccan
0.35504019 Saudi
0.35591588 BedouinB
0.37633336 Berber_MAR_TIZ


Compared to the Khakass, a Turkic tribe from Khakassia, in Southern Siberia

Distance to: Khakass

0.19880078 Kusunda
0.20126731 Magar
0.20488166 Dungan
0.22088850 Gurung
0.22724750 Tripuri
0.23274964 Sherpa
0.23541135 Burmese
0.23545944 Rai
0.25920019 JPN_Jomon
0.26290941 Han_Shanxi
0.26309435 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.26603085 Qiang_Danba
0.26833295 Thai
0.26869988 Japanese
0.28033095 Aeta
0.28057957 Jehai
0.29324865 Tujia
0.29530742 Miao
0.29816665 Cambodian
0.29851625 Lahu
0.30048613 Han_Fujian
0.30069019 Malay
0.30717956 She
0.30741847 Filipino
0.30850879 Kinh_Vietnam
0.30884624 Vizayan
0.31050610 PYF_150BP
0.31333734 Dong_Guizhou
0.31670436 BRA_Botocudo
0.31901333 Bajo
0.31979654 Mulam
0.32152777 Dai
0.32215882 Zhuang
0.32439885 Hawaiian
0.32813183 Tongan
0.32857772 Maonan
0.32873069 Indonesian_Bali
0.32938479 Htin_Mal
0.33098049 Li
0.33320638 Mlabri
0.33487913 Rindi_Sumba
0.33599858 Indonesian_Java
0.33615452 Luzon
0.33983717 Atayal
0.34547565 Lebbo
0.34953242 Dusun
0.35182259 Ami
0.35439321 Igorot
0.35593996 Murut
0.37480649 Umak_Laran_Timor


my model for them:
Target: Saami
Distance: 2.1399% / 0.02139911
21.0 Baltic_EST_BA
19.6 Mari
13.4 Nganassan
13.2 Khanty
12.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
12.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
6.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
1.2 Scotland_N
0.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3

[Leto]

Maguzanci sock puppet, I know it's you. You've opened probably half a dozen threads about the "Uralics", I wonder why...

[Zanzibar]

Maguzanci sock puppet, I know it's you. You've opened probably half a dozen threads about the "Uralics", I wonder why...

Lol why do you care? I'm just find Uralics very interesting. I don't have an agenda.

[Leto]

Lol why do you care? I'm just find Uralics very interesting. I don't have an agenda.
Since you are here, tell me why Malay_Singapore is so fucking different from Malay on Dodecad K12b. You made those two averages. Go see for yourself if you don't remember.

[Zanzibar]

Yes it means that Saami are closer to SE Asians than to Jordanians. Ok so yes Saami are significantly closer to Kurds and Turks than to SE Asians but this does not give you the total distance just the amount of derived alleles. The higher the number of derived alleles 2 pops share the closer their distance so distances are relative to other pops.

Ok, I'll do just one more but that would have to be it as I have other things I need to do. I'll do Bashkirs.


So BABA is what column 1 shares with column 3 and ABBA is what column 2 shares with column 3

Don't you think its strange that Jordanians are genetically further away from Saamis than SE Asians are while Kurds and Turks are closer? Could it be due to the shared East Eurasian ancestry in Saamis and Kurds, Turks that makes them closer?

Please do Mari instead. I'm more curious about them.

[Zanzibar]

Since you are here, tell me why Malay_Singapore is so fucking different from Malay on Dodecad K12b. You made those two averages. Go see for yourself if you don't remember.

I checked, there are Malay_Singapore and Malay_Malaysia samples. I don't see the one with the only label "Malay".

There is only one indivdidual for the Malay_Singapore. Maybe its under-sampling. Will have to add more individuals to get a better average then.

[Leto]

I checked, there are Malay_Singapore and Malay_Malaysia samples. I don't see the one with the only label "Malay".

There is only one indivdidual for the Malay_Singapore. Maybe its under-sampling. Will have to add more individuals to get a better average then.
Yes, Malay_Malaysia. If it's only one sample, can I have it removed?

[Zanzibar]

Yes, Malay_Malaysia. If it's only one sample, can I have it removed?

Sure. Have it removed. I have to add more samples for the Malay_Singapore later.

[Zoro]

Yes it means that Saami are closer to SE Asians than to Jordanians. Ok so yes Saami are significantly closer to Kurds and Turks than to SE Asians but this does not give you the total distance just the amount of derived alleles. The higher the number of derived alleles 2 pops share the closer their distance so distances are relative to other pops.

Ok, I'll do just one more but that would have to be it as I have other things I need to do. I'll do Bashkirs.


So BABA is what column 1 shares with column 3 and ABBA is what column 2 shares with column 3


Here are the results of Bashkir vs W Asians and SE Asians. It gets a little more interesting and not as clear cut as Saami because it depends on the specific population

Whereas Saami were clearly closer to Kurds and Turks than ALL the SE populations I used, things are different with Bashkirs because they have more E Asian ancestry than Saami.

Here we see that out of the 4 W Asians Bashkirs are closer to Kurds and Turks than to Burmese but not when it comes to Japanese and Ami.

Shaded green: Bashkirs closer to those W Asians
Shaded white: difference insignificant
Shaded red: Bashkirs closer to SE Asians

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.008
2.5
64,646
63,597
1,071,287


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.006
1.3
54,030
53,440
920,891


Turkish
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.005
1.2
64,546
63,940
1,071,264


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.001
0.2
54,058
53,941
920,868


Turkish
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.001
-0.4
64,130
64,307
1,071,338


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.002
-0.4
64,108
64,315
1,071,385


Jew_Iraqi
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.002
-0.6
64,558
64,817
1,071,305


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.005
-1.2
53,720
54,274
920,932


Jew_Iraqi
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.005
-1.5
64,444
65,145
1,071,272


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.006
-1.3
55,041
55,655
942,378


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.011
-3.5
64,245
65,727
1,071,348


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.012
-3.7
64,213
65,725
1,071,399


Jordanian
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.019
-4.9
63,975
66,409
1,071,350


Jordanian
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.022
-5.4
64,032
66,910
1,071,321


Jordanian
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.028
-7.1
63,533
67,194
1,071,396


Jordanian
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.028
-7.8
63,543
67,233
1,071,449

</tbody>

[Zoro]

Don't you think its strange that Jordanians are genetically further away from Saamis than SE Asians are while Kurds and Turks are closer? Could it be due to the shared East Eurasian ancestry in Saamis and Kurds, Turks that makes them closer?

Please do Mari instead. I'm more curious about them.

Sure it's due to Central Asian admixture in Kurds and Turks which contains EHG, Siberian and E Asian so yes shared. Jordanians and Iraqi Jews to a lesser extent don't have nearly as much.

[Zanzibar]

Here are the results of Bashkir vs W Asians and SE Asians. It gets a little more interesting and not as clear cut as Saami because it depends on the specific population

Whereas Saami were clearly closer to Kurds and Turks than ALL the SE populations I used, things are different with Bashkirs because they have more E Asian ancestry than Saami.

Here we see that out of the 4 W Asians Bashkirs are closer to Kurds and Turks than to Burmese but not when it comes to Japanese and Ami.

Shaded green: Bashkirs closer to those W Asians
Shaded white: difference insignificant
Shaded red: Bashkirs closer to SE Asians

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
West Asian
SE Asian
Saami
Ancestor
D
Z
BABA
ABBA
SNPs


Turkish
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.008
2.5
64,646
63,597
1,071,287


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.006
1.3
54,030
53,440
920,891


Turkish
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.005
1.2
64,546
63,940
1,071,264


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
0.001
0.2
54,058
53,941
920,868


Turkish
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.001
-0.4
64,130
64,307
1,071,338


Turkish
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.002
-0.4
64,108
64,315
1,071,385


Jew_Iraqi
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.002
-0.6
64,558
64,817
1,071,305


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.005
-1.2
53,720
54,274
920,932


Jew_Iraqi
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.005
-1.5
64,444
65,145
1,071,272


Kurd-Iraq-WGS
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.006
-1.3
55,041
55,655
942,378


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.011
-3.5
64,245
65,727
1,071,348


Jew_Iraqi
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.012
-3.7
64,213
65,725
1,071,399


Jordanian
Burmese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.019
-4.9
63,975
66,409
1,071,350


Jordanian
Ami.DG
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.022
-5.4
64,032
66,910
1,071,321


Jordanian
Japanese
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.028
-7.1
63,533
67,194
1,071,396


Jordanian
Japanese_1000G
Bashkir
Ancestor.REF
-0.028
-7.8
63,543
67,233
1,071,449

</tbody>

Thank you. Do you find it interesting that Saamis genetically closer to SE Asians to a fellow "Caucasoid"/West Eurasian like Jordanian?

Looks like Bashkirs are genetically closer to SE Asians overall than Saamis are.

Can you do just one more please? That's all. The Mari.

[Zanzibar]

Sure it's due to Central Asian admixture in Kurds and Turks which contains EHG, Siberian and E Asian so yes shared. Jordanians and Iraqi Jews to a lesser extent don't have nearly as much.

That makes sense. I find it interesting that Saamis are closer to SE Asians than to Jordanians, who are fellow West Eurasians.

[Zanzibar]

Modern-day West Eurasian = actual West Eurasian (Aurignacian, Gravettian, etc) + Basal Eurasian.

ANE is also part of this actual West Eurasian? Where did Basal Eurasian come from? So which groups have the "purest" actual West Eurasian ancestry today?

[Token]

ANE is also part of this actual West Eurasian? Where did Basal Eurasian come from?
ANE is not fully West Eurasian. The West Eurasian part of their ancestry is Kosteniki14-related, so 'actual West Eurasian'.


So which groups have the "purest" actual West Eurasian ancestry today?
Northern Europeans.

[Zanzibar]

ANE is not fully West Eurasian. The West Eurasian part of their ancestry is Kosteniki14-related, so 'actual West Eurasian'.


Northern Europeans.

True. ANE actually has around 25-30% ENA ancestry. Is Kostenki14 part of the same branch of Sunghir and Gravettian? Also I forgot but do Tajiks, Pashtuns or Saamis have the highest ANE among predominantly West Eurasian populations?

By Northern Euros do you mean Balts or Scandinavians? Because if I remember Balts have higher WHG than Scandos. (correct me if Im wrong).

[Token]

True. ANE actually has around 25-30% ENA ancestry. Is Kostenki14 part of the same branch of Sunghir and Gravettian?
Yes. Please stop asking trivial questions that can be answered by a simple search on Google, i'll not answer these anymore.


Also I forgot but do Tajiks, Pashtuns or Saamis have the highest ANE among predominantly West Eurasian populations?
I don't know. It would be too hard to extract the ANE scores of these populations in a formal - correct - way. This map should be close to the reality.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kelly_Graf/publication/258822728/figure/fig2/AS:279132471611425@1443561775516/Sample-locations-and-MA-1-genetic-affinities-a-Geographical-locations-of-Malta-and.png


By Northern Euros do you mean Balts or Scandinavians? Because if I remember Balts have higher WHG than Scandos. (correct me if Im wrong).

Norwegian Lithuanian Villabruna Chimp -0.00105 1.99e-4 -5.25 1.53e-7
Since Z<-3, this is a unambiguous proof that Lithuanians harbor more WHG-related ancestry than Norwegians.

[Aren]

ANE is not fully West Eurasian. The West Eurasian part of their ancestry is Kosteniki14-related, so 'actual West Eurasian'.


Northern Europeans.

How much Basal do you actually think there is in Pinarbasi, Ganj Dareh and CHG? And do you agree that Ganj Dareh has East Eurasian input(other than what they got from their ANE part)?

[Token]

How much Basal do you actually think there is in Pinarbasi, Ganj Dareh and CHG? And do you agree that Ganj Dareh has East Eurasian input(other than what they got from their ANE part)?

Late response because i didn't received the quote notification. The Dzudzuana paper might be close to the reality:


a common population contributed ancestry to Gravettians (represented by Vestonice16) and to a “Common West Eurasian” population that contributed all the ancestry of Villabruna and most of the ancestry of Dzudzuana which also had 28.4±4.2% Basal Eurasian ancestry

Their qpAdm models make a strong case for both pseudo-African and eastern non-African admixture in Iran_N and CHG:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/09/20/423079/T1.medium.gif

About the pseudo-African, they say that it 'may represent an even earlier split than the Basal Eurasians', but it might as well be just additional Basal Eurasian to the exclusion of Dzudzuana. Based on these qpAdm models, there is more or less 0.255 Basal Eurasian in Iran_N and 0.22 in CHG. In the end that's mostly just statistical play, but this structured reduction in Neanderthal when you approach the Near East is surely telling us something.

[Synapsid]

EHG who are the ancient hunter gatherer ancestors of modern Saamis and other Uralics and other ancient Hunter Gatherers like WHG are genetically much more divergent and distant from West Asians and MENAs even more than the Selkups are from SE Asians and Polynesians. This makes me think that the so called West Eurasian aka Caucasoid race doesn't even exist.

Just look at the distance of EHGs and WHGs to their fellow Caucasoid the West Asians/MENAs, its almost if they are totally different unrelated race lol!! Komintasavalta and other guys, do you wished that Uralics were still Hunter Gatherers+ Siberian? You would be genetically so distant from "fellow Caucasoids" lmao. :thumb001:

Distance of EHG to West Asians/MENAs:

Distance to: RUS_Karelia_HG

0.31088162 Chechen
0.31932041 Turkish_Istanbul
0.32308702 Adygei
0.32432201 Azeri_Dagestan
0.33599975 Turkish_Adana
0.33652231 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.33714728 Iranian_Fars
0.34121679 Zaza_Dersim
0.34175359 Azeri
0.34231932 Azeri_Turkey
0.34287610 Turkish_Kayseri
0.34756180 Turkish_East
0.34773074 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.35115310 Kurdish
0.35169136 Iranian_Lor
0.36929979 Syrian
0.37042610 Iraqi_B
0.37076043 Georgian_Jew
0.37167000 Iraqi
0.37328970 Georgian_Imer
0.37335386 Georgian_Laz
0.37416131 Syrian_B
0.37549776 Armenian
0.37553494 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.37563981 Assyrian
0.37717534 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.37753760 Iranian_Jew
0.37757211 Turkish_Trabzon
0.37857381 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.37877553 Armenian_B
0.37972656 Cypriot
0.38151462 Lebanese_Druze
0.38184453 Druze
0.38408613 Jordanian
0.38589709 Jordanian_B
0.38827287 Palestinian
0.39052507 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.39143339 Iraqi_Jew
0.39212631 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.39576623 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.39578246 BedouinA
0.40676402 Samaritan
0.40721330 Moroccan_North
0.41309881 Egyptian
0.41786211 Algerian
0.41876339 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.43044076 Moroccan
0.43286010 Saudi
0.43311595 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.43330231 BedouinB
0.45214308 Berber_MAR_TIZ


Distance of WHGs to West Asians/MENAs:

Distance to: WHG

0.42612373 Turkish_Istanbul
0.44338776 Adygei
0.44652606 Chechen
0.44668433 Turkish_Adana
0.44975992 Turkish_Kayseri
0.45070864 Azeri_Dagestan
0.45291086 Moroccan_North
0.45717563 Cypriot
0.45751045 Zaza_Dersim
0.45899459 Turkish_East
0.45902166 Azeri_Turkey
0.46041992 Azeri
0.46122943 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.46124261 Syrian
0.46308655 Iranian_Fars
0.46470563 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.46530028 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.46612578 Druze
0.46620315 Syrian_B
0.46635197 Jordanian
0.46674970 Kurdish
0.46741149 Lebanese_Druze
0.46807424 Jordanian_B
0.46842977 Iraqi_B
0.46922736 Georgian_Jew
0.46949444 Palestinian
0.46959263 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.47031513 Iranian_Lor
0.47056992 Algerian
0.47118429 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.47145519 Iraqi
0.47238862 Turkish_Trabzon
0.47293606 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.47405021 Armenian_B
0.47412154 Georgian_Laz
0.47437322 Armenian
0.47524253 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.47542956 BedouinA
0.47654182 Assyrian
0.47657813 Iranian_Jew
0.47898151 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.47931826 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.47986778 Samaritan
0.48101462 Georgian_Imer
0.48156317 Iraqi_Jew
0.48218457 Moroccan
0.48289262 Egyptian
0.49375842 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.49719925 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.49801156 BedouinB
0.49943007 Saudi


Compared to Selkups and Chukchis to SE Asians and Polynesians

Distance to: Selkup

0.28326715 Kusunda
0.28481306 Magar
0.28844378 Dungan
0.30045014 Gurung
0.30673536 Tripuri
0.30968137 Sherpa
0.31227477 Rai
0.31289532 Burmese
0.32664211 JPN_Jomon
0.33488629 Han_Shanxi
0.33621320 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.33723993 Japanese
0.33825721 Qiang_Danba
0.34150347 Thai
0.34668358 Aeta
0.34851166 Jehai
0.36255475 Tujia
0.36495201 Cambodian
0.36526086 Miao
0.36758325 Lahu
0.36837949 Malay
0.36962554 Han_Fujian
0.37392289 PYF_150BP
0.37476629 Vizayan
0.37484633 Filipino
0.37506130 She
0.37535607 Kinh_Vietnam
0.37995926 BRA_Botocudo
0.38010890 Dong_Guizhou
0.38136984 Bajo
0.38562088 Mulam
0.38638134 Dai
0.38730870 Zhuang
0.38858958 Tongan
0.39067207 Hawaiian
0.39164693 Indonesian_Bali
0.39336095 Htin_Mal
0.39385231 Maonan
0.39440427 Li
0.39576228 Mlabri
0.39605713 Rindi_Sumba
0.39868344 Indonesian_Java
0.40016918 Luzon
0.40396877 Atayal
0.40717263 Lebbo
0.41095028 Dusun
0.41191689 Ami
0.41563907 Igorot
0.41688073 Murut
0.42608380 Umak_Laran_Timor


Distance of Chukchi to SE Asians and Polynesians.


Distance to: Chukchi

0.27906903 Dungan
0.28211199 Sherpa
0.28212704 Gurung
0.28255251 Magar
0.28698272 Rai
0.29255957 Japanese
0.30024019 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.30026806 Han_Shanxi
0.30068444 Tripuri
0.30141388 Qiang_Danba
0.30228373 Kusunda
0.30318210 Burmese
0.31735029 JPN_Jomon
0.32733758 Tujia
0.33266152 Miao
0.33461253 Han_Fujian
0.33705073 Thai
0.34058772 Lahu
0.34162094 She
0.34999189 Dong_Guizhou
0.35075040 Kinh_Vietnam
0.35569198 Cambodian
0.35688177 Aeta
0.35703315 Mulam
0.35838305 Zhuang
0.36093267 Vizayan
0.36192469 Filipino
0.36278467 Malay
0.36291987 Dai
0.36537995 Jehai
0.36566569 Maonan
0.37022340 Li
0.37400671 Hawaiian
0.37434587 PYF_150BP
0.37502082 BRA_Botocudo
0.37612652 Bajo
0.37875812 Atayal
0.37907095 Htin_Mal
0.37983117 Luzon
0.38391638 Mlabri
0.38446504 Indonesian_Bali
0.38547604 Ami
0.38710811 Indonesian_Java
0.38848647 Tongan
0.39102348 Lebbo
0.39166985 Igorot
0.39191870 Rindi_Sumba
0.39345667 Dusun
0.39746078 Murut
0.42917231 Umak_Laran_Timor


They are seen as "Caucasiods" because both are mosty part of the western branch of Crown Eurasian...But ENF has basal in them.

[Zanzibar]

They are seen as "Caucasiods" because both are mosty part of the western branch of Crown Eurasian...But ENF has basal in them.

I totally understand your point. But by looking at the genetic distances between WHG. EHG and West Asian/MENAs, its almost if they are totally different races lol. Basal (from CHG and ENF/Anatolian) does seem to play a big role in pulling modern Euros much closer to West Asians and North Africans, a lot more than their ancient counterparts like WHG, EHG who seem to lack Basal though.

Which of the two would you say are genetically closer to one another?: Saamis, other Uralics like Maris to West Asians/MENAs or some Siberians like Tungusics, Yakuts, Chukchis to SE Asians and Polynesians?

[Synapsid]

I totally understand your point. But by looking at the genetic distances between WHG. EHG and West Asian/MENAs, its almost if they are totally different races lol. Basal (from CHG and ENF/Anatolian) does seem to play a big role in pulling modern Euros much closer to West Asians and North Africans, a lot more than their ancient counterparts like WHG, EHG who seem to lack Basal though.

Which of the two would you say are genetically closer to one another?: Saamis, other Uralics like Maris to West Asians/MENAs or some Siberians like Tungusics, Yakuts, Chukchis to SE Asians and Polynesians?

You have to remember that these populations have been seprerated from each other before mixing in neolithic-Bronze ages. They underwent genetic bottlenecks which exaggerates differences between groups on FST charts. On the question; I would say neosiberians are closer to SEA than the former..

[Synapsid]

EHG was seperated from WE/non basal part of Dzudzuana/Anatolian since upper Paleolithic but Northen Euros have both for example. For EHG-Basal Eurasian divide, could be up to 55,000 + seperate but both exists in All Euros

[Zanzibar]

You have to remember that these populations have been seprerated from each other before mixing in neolithic-Bronze ages. They underwent genetic bottlenecks which exaggerates differences between groups on FST charts. On the question; I would say neosiberians are closer to SEA than the former..

I see. If they didn't go through genetic bottlenecks would you say that WHG, EHG would be closer to West Asians/MENAs?

Interesting. Is it because Neosiberians also have recent Neolithic Rice Farmer admixture from SE Asia? How about Paleosiberians like Chukchis, Itelmens or some groups like Nenets, Nganasans: would they be more genetically distant from SE Asia and Polynesia than Saamis, other Finno-Ugrics like Maris, Udmurts are to West Asians and MENAs?

[Tauromachos]

Interesting that Turks and Chechens are the closest to them among all these groups

[Zanzibar]

EHG was seperated from WE/non basal part of Dzudzuana/Anatolian since upper Paleolithic but Northen Euros have both for example. For EHG-Basal Eurasian divide, could be up to 55,000 + seperate but both exists in All Euros

Is that longer periods of separation and divergence than Amerindians are from Siberians and other East Eurasians? If Natives weren't affected by extreme genetic drift, would you say they are still farther away from East Eurasians than Saamis, other Uralics are closer to West Asians/MENAs or around the same level of genetic distance?

Does this Basal K7 rich calculator gives a good idea how much Basal Eurasian Euros have on average?: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit#gid=2002805772

Its shows Sardinians and Germans being around 45% and 27% Basal Rich while the Saamis only 7% Basal which is the lowest in Europe.

[Zanzibar]

EHG was seperated from WE/non basal part of Dzudzuana/Anatolian since upper Paleolithic but Northen Euros have both for example. For EHG-Basal Eurasian divide, could be up to 55,000 + seperate but both exists in All Euros

Is that longer than the periods of separation and divergence than Amerindians are from Siberians and other East Eurasians? If Natives weren't affected by extreme genetic drift, would you say they are still farther away from East Eurasians than Saamis, other Uralics are closer to West Asians/MENAs or around the same level of genetic distance?

Does this Basal K7 rich calculator gives a good idea how much Basal Eurasian Euros have on average?: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit#gid=2002805772

Its shows Sardinians and Germans being around 45% and 27% Basal Rich while the Saamis only 7% Basal which is the lowest in Europe.

[Token]

Is that longer periods of separation and divergence than Amerindians are from Siberians and other East Eurasians? If Natives weren't affected by extreme genetic drift, would you say they are still farther away from East Eurasians than Saamis, other Uralics are closer to West Asians/MENAs or around the same level of genetic distance?

Does this Basal K7 rich calculator gives a good idea how much Basal Eurasian Euros have on average?: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit#gid=2002805772

Its shows Sardinians and Germans being around 45% and 27% Basal Rich while the Saamis only 7% Basal which is the lowest in Europe.
When Basal Eurasians split from the Eurasian core East and West Eurasians didn't even exist as separate entities, let alone Siberians. I don't believe EHG is a cluster on its own, it looks like a mixture of many disparate West Eurasian clusters including some CHG admixture. The Basal-rich in this calculator is mostly non-Basal Eurasian.

[Lemminkäinen]

I think it depends on the Siberian group. From.the distance runs I did, Yakuts, some Northern Tungusics like Evenki, Even, Paleosiberians like Chukchis, Itelmens and Yeniseians such as Kets, Selkups are further away from SE Asians than Saamis and other Uralics are to MENAs/West Asians. Meanwhile the distance of South Siberians like Tuvinians/Tuvans, Altaians, Buryats and predominantly Mongoloid Central Asians like Kazakhs and South Tungusics to SE Asians and Polynesians/Micronesians are as distant as Saamis, other Uralics are to West Asians/MENAs. And I think it has to do with the fact that these South Siberians and Kazakhs, other predominantly Mongoloid Turkics have some Southern Coastal East Asian (related to the main ancestry in Dai and other SE Asians which pulls them closer to SE Asians and Polyneaians similar to the very low Neolithic Farmer in Saamis, other Uralics.

I have a feeling that if Uralics don't have some Neolithic and CHG admix which their ancient Hunter Gatherer ancestors lacked, they will be as genetically distant from West Asians/MENAs maybe equally or more than Paleosiberians and Yeniseians are to SE Asians and Polynesians. Neolithic Farmer and CHG ancestry which also contains significant Basal Eurasian seems to pull Europeans closer to West Asia/Near East, North Africa and Iranic Central Asia (which is anothrrer predominantly West Eurasian region).

What is the some other factor in the Middle East?

Regarding the last part I understand that. I wanted to see who has more genetic distance and divergence: West Eurasians/heavily West Eurasian influenced peoples and Mongoloids/East Eurasians.

East and North Eurasians are distant relatives. North Africans has SSA admixture, which is unknown in North and East Europe. Middle Easterners have almost zero WHG and EHG admixtures. Common drift in North/East Eurasian vs European HG + Neolithic European Farmer admixture in North/East Europe. Keeping in ming that MENA is not very close Neolithic farmers.

A lot of concepts without definition and as I already wtote, I don't understand why the MENA/Near East ancestry is so exciting especially for South Europeans, considering that Neolithic farmers were not Neareasterners.

[Zanzibar]

When Basal Eurasians split from the Eurasian core East and West Eurasians didn't even exist as separate entities, let alone Siberians. I don't believe EHG is a cluster on its own, it looks like a mixture of many disparate West Eurasian clusters including some CHG admixture. The Basal-rich in this calculator is mostly non-Basal Eurasian.

Would drift be the reason for why WHG and EHG is very distant from modern day Europeans in G25 distance run?

How did the CHG admix get into the EHG?

So what is the Basal rich component really showing or indicating then if it is mostly non-Basal Eurasian?

[Synapsid]

I see. If they didn't go through genetic bottlenecks would you say that WHG, EHG would be closer to West Asians/MENAs?

Interesting. Is it because Neosiberians also have recent Neolithic Rice Farmer admixture from SE Asia? How about Paleosiberians like Chukchis, Itelmens or some groups like Nenets, Nganasans: would they be more genetically distant from SE Asia and Polynesia than Saamis, other Finno-Ugrics like Maris, Udmurts are to West Asians and MENAs?

No. EHG and WHG lack basal and EHG has ENA in it....its complicated.