R1A in Balkans

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

I can trace my paternal line up to 5 generations, all from a single village in Opoje, region. It is mountainous and high in elevation, meaning genetic isolation free from Turks and such. Also there are supposed old serb (:yuck:) church ruins underneath some of the villages from medieval times.

23andme gave me r-cts3402, which is a descendent of the r-z280 (balto-slavic branch of r1a) and peaks in Poland/Lithuania/Belarus, etc. It is ~4,000 years old. FTDNA's y-37 test didnt do much except give me r-m198 as my predicted haplo, of which r-cts3402 is a branch of, of course. Basically confirming i am r1a

I upgraded to y-67, but those results arent expected to come back until March... Any thoughts??

[Jana]

Well your direct paternal ancestor was Slavic centuries ago, that's for sure. It's not that rare, minority of ethnic Albanians have slavic originated ydna clades.

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Only around 10% of Albanians have r1a. J, E, G, and even r1b (greco-anatolian branch) are more common than r1b

[Jana]

Only around 10% of Albanians have r1a. J, E, G, and even r1b (greco-anatolian branch) are more common than r1b

we know that. but 10% isn't that rare and I2-din exists too (another slavic branch)

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Ancient samples with your haplogroup

https://i.imgur.com/ws9z14A.png

[Ylla]

Welcome dear, interesting clade. It would be slavic or it could be older with more ancient origins in the region. I would wait for your y67 to come back. Have you got Gedmatch results?

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Welcome dear, interesting clade. It would be slavic or it could be older with more ancient origins in the region. I would wait for your y67 to come back. Have you got Gedmatch results?

112198

This is my Y map... As you can see it peaks in Poland/Belarus/Lithuania, etc. area. But there's also a hotspot in the Istria/Slovenia region and along the eastern Adriatic coast. This is ancient Illyrian homeland. Is it possible it came from them or maybe the Illyrians got it from the Slavs further northeast??

[GalenStark]

I can trace my paternal line up to 5 generations, all from a single village in Opoje, region. It is mountainous and high in elevation, meaning genetic isolation free from Turks and such. Also there are supposed old serb (:yuck:) church ruins underneath some of the villages from medieval times.

23andme gave me r-cts3402, which is a descendent of the r-z280 (balto-slavic branch of r1a) and peaks in Poland/Lithuania/Belarus, etc. It is ~4,000 years old. FTDNA's y-37 test didnt do much except give me r-m198 as my predicted haplo, of which r-cts3402 is a branch of, of course. Basically confirming i am r1a

I upgraded to y-67, but those results arent expected to come back until March... Any thoughts??

You should join the Albanian DNA project Rrenjet. There's a batch of Opoje samples that were sponsored. None were R1a. But there's a Z280 from Gjakove I believe. There's some Albanian founder effects under Z280 that are found mostly in Tosks and an Italian.

Here's the project link on FTDNA. The admins are very responsive. They can look at your STRs and offer guidance for further testing.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/rrenjet/about?utm_source=google-ads&utm_campaign=Dynamic+Search&utm_agid=129007779003&utm_term=&creative=559039110895&device=m&placement=&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6NOPBhCPARIsAHAy2zDrJqc5JlAj17bvA3w7 UWij87UGyhkVz03eioHy6WpOAn1UDAdhNPUaAiqpEALw_wcB

[Hulu]

You should join the Albanian DNA project Rrenjet. There's a batch of Opoje samples that were sponsored. None were R1a. But there's a Z280 from Gjakove I believe. There's some Albanian founder effects under Z280 that are found mostly in Tosks and an Italian.

Here's the project link on FTDNA. The admins are very responsive. They can look at your STRs and offer guidance for further testing.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/rrenjet/about?utm_source=google-ads&utm_campaign=Dynamic+Search&utm_agid=129007779003&utm_term=&creative=559039110895&device=m&placement=&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6NOPBhCPARIsAHAy2zDrJqc5JlAj17bvA3w7 UWij87UGyhkVz03eioHy6WpOAn1UDAdhNPUaAiqpEALw_wcB

They should join this group who is the biggest Albanian group in FTDNA instead of keeping separate

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

[GalenStark]

They should join this group who is the biggest Albanian group in FTDNA instead of keeping separate

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Lol biggest?

Rrenjet has 1300+ samples(not just ftdna)

They're also not run by a lying manipulative man child that tried stealing samples he didn't pay for. There's also the hate filled rhetoric that caused many members to leave.

Whatever floats your boat though.

[Hulu]

Lol biggest?

Rrenjet has 1300+ samples(not just ftdna)

They're also not run by a lying manipulative man child that tried stealing samples he didn't pay for. There's also the hate filled rhetoric that caused many members to leave.

Whatever floats your boat though.

Kush je ti?

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

LOL, what's the beef here??

[Dušan]

I can trace my paternal line up to 5 generations, all from a single village in Opoje, region. It is mountainous and high in elevation, meaning genetic isolation free from Turks and such. Also there are supposed old serb (:yuck:) church ruins underneath some of the villages from medieval times.

23andme gave me r-cts3402, which is a descendent of the r-z280 (balto-slavic branch of r1a) and peaks in Poland/Lithuania/Belarus, etc. It is ~4,000 years old. FTDNA's y-37 test didnt do much except give me r-m198 as my predicted haplo, of which r-cts3402 is a branch of, of course. Basically confirming i am r1a

I upgraded to y-67, but those results arent expected to come back until March... Any thoughts??

Of course there was medieval Serbian Orthodox church, since this area was integral part of Serbian state, and Prizren was the capital of Serbia during emperor Dušan's rule.

Your paternal line is proto-Slavic origin, most likely of some albanized and islamized Serbs during Ottoman ocupation.

[Nurzat]

it is almost sure for anyone that their male ancestry is not the one they know of in the last 2 centuries, because women so often have babies from other men. so, yes, scientifically you can be sure of your tested hg, but don't try to match that against a "family tree", family trees are useless and cannot be taken seriously

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Of course there was medieval Serbian Orthodox church, since this area was integral part of Serbian state, and Prizren was the capital of Serbia during emperor Dušan's rule.

Your paternal line is proto-Slavic origin, most likely of some albanized and islamized Serbs during Ottoman ocupation.

xDD even if my haplogroup is Slavic, it probably was not so recent as a Serb in Ottoman times....

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

it is almost sure for anyone that their male ancestry is not the one they know of in the last 2 centuries, because women so often have babies from other men. so, yes, scientifically you can be sure of your tested hg, but don't try to match that against a "family tree", family trees are useless and cannot be taken seriously

Speak for yourself... I cant even trace back that far and my oldest known paternal ancestor is only my great-great-great grandpa. Compared to western euros, who starting writing documents much earlier, who can trace back to 1700's or something crazy like that. Regardless I doubt there was any adultery.

[MandM]

Speak for yourself... I cant even trace back that far and my oldest known paternal ancestor is only my great-great-great grandpa. Compared to western euros, who starting writing documents much earlier, who can trace back to 1700's or something crazy like that. Regardless I doubt there was any adultery.

On my fathers side i can trace back to about 1765 ish:)

[Nurzat]

Speak for yourself... I cant even trace back that far and my oldest known paternal ancestor is only my great-great-great grandpa. Compared to western euros, who starting writing documents much earlier, who can trace back to 1700's or something crazy like that. Regardless I doubt there was any adultery.

all studies on the matter prove that every few generations there is a change of male line (not necessarily an adultery, but probably most often so), so no one can base haplogroup on continued ancestry in a certain place or within a certain family. hg are good for populational studies and research, but for individuals it's quite nothing relevant. autosomal will say the more relevant percentage of various macro-components (like Farmer vs HG vs Steppe vs African vs Siberian vs Asian etc)

[Dušan]

xDD even if my haplogroup is Slavic, it probably was not so recent as a Serb in Ottoman times....

There were no other Slavs in the Opolje and Prizren area except Serbs.

[Varda]

xDD even if my haplogroup is Slavic, it probably was not so recent as a Serb in Ottoman times....

Opolje Albanians are mix of Albanian settlers from northern Albania in Ottoman time and islamized/albanized Serbs who lived there since middle age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opolje#Ottoman_era

First neighbors of Opolje Albanians are Gorani and Serbs of Sredačka župa. Ancestors of Gorani converted to Islam, but they preserved own Slavic/Serbian language and they are not albanized except they adopted Albanian forms of surnames. Serbs of Sredačka župa preserved both Orthodox religion and Serbian language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gora_(region)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredačka_župa

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

all studies on the matter prove that every few generations there is a change of male line (not necessarily an adultery, but probably most often so), so no one can base haplogroup on continued ancestry in a certain place or within a certain family. hg are good for populational studies and research, but for individuals it's quite nothing relevant. autosomal will say the more relevant percentage of various macro-components (like Farmer vs HG vs Steppe vs African vs Siberian vs Asian etc)

You obviously have some sort of agenda based on a vested interest you possess... I have already posted my autosomal and didn't find anything particularly interesting. Except 12.5% Caucasus H&G

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Opolje Albanians are mix of Albanian settlers from northern Albania in Ottoman time and islamized/albanized Serbs who lived there since middle age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opolje#Ottoman_era

First neighbors of Opolje Albanians are Gorani and Serbs of Sredačka župa. Ancestors of Gorani converted to Islam, but they preserved own Slavic/Serbian language and they are not albanized except they adopted Albanian forms of surnames. Serbs of Sredačka župa preserved both Orthodox religion and Serbian language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gora_(region)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredačka_župa

What's to say the haplo is older than that??

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Of course there was medieval Serbian Orthodox church, since this area was integral part of Serbian state, and Prizren was the capital of Serbia during emperor Dušan's rule.

Your paternal line is proto-Slavic origin, most likely of some albanized and islamized Serbs during Ottoman ocupation.

And the problem with that is R1a is not the dominant haplo in Serbia proper. My specific clade is much more common in Poland, Belarus, Russia, etc. than anything, meaning it had to be from an older input.

[Varda]

And the problem with that is R1a is not the dominant haplo in Serbia proper. My specific clade is much more common in Poland, Belarus, Russia, etc. than anything, meaning it had to be from an older input.

There are several Serbian flags down https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS3402/

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

There are several Serbian flags down https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS3402/

Okay, I am still waiting for my Y-67 results, but after looking at my STRs from the 37, I am most likely R1a-CTS1211>CTS3402>L366. I can show my STR markers here if you want.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L366/ No Serbs here, although there is one Bulgar, and 2 Turks who are seemingly random, but interesting.

[Dušan]

And the problem with that is R1a is not the dominant haplo in Serbia proper. My specific clade is much more common in Poland, Belarus, Russia, etc. than anything, meaning it had to be from an older input.

Since Slavs settled all across Balkans in 6-7th centuries in various amount, including Albania proper, there is also possibility that your origin is from somewhere in Albania, and later settled in Prizren area during Ottoman times.

[Hulu]

Since Slavs settled all across Balkans in 6-7th centuries in various amount, including Albania proper, there is also possibility that your origin is from somewhere in Albania, and later settled in Prizren area during Ottoman times.

I really dislike getting into this, but you have to give up this Albanians "settling" there narrative. Albanians were always there as they were in all surrounding areas. Czar Dusan's army was comprised mostly with Kosovo Albanians when he invaded Greece. So he killed 2 birds with one stone, had a powerful army by having Albanians in it and got rid of a good chunk of Albanians by giving them lands in Greece as a reward. And this was before the Turks.

[Jana]

And the problem with that is R1a is not the dominant haplo in Serbia proper. My specific clade is much more common in Poland, Belarus, Russia, etc. than anything, meaning it had to be from an older input.

What? Of course it doesn't have to be (but it can). Your type of R1a is most common type of R1a among Serbs. For knowing what it is exactly except early Slavic you'll need a deeper test.

[vbnetkhio]

Okay, I am still waiting for my Y-67 results, but after looking at my STRs from the 37, I am most likely R1a-CTS1211>CTS3402>L366. I can show my STR markers here if you want.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L366/ No Serbs here, although there is one Bulgar, and 2 Turks who are seemingly random, but interesting.

https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/

there are 7 Serbs with L366 in the project, geographically closest to you are 3 from Montenegro and one from Trgoviste at the Serbia/Macedonia border.

[Dušan]

I really dislike getting into this, but you have to give up this Albanians "settling" there narrative. Albanians were always there as they were in all surrounding areas. Czar Dusan's army was comprised mostly with Kosovo Albanians when he invaded Greece. So he killed 2 birds with one stone, had a powerful army by having Albanians in it and got rid of a good chunk of Albanians by giving them lands in Greece as a reward. And this was before the Turks.

Why should I give up of clear historical facts?
Because you are uncomfortable of being settlers from Ottoman times?

Even pro-Albanian and pro-Bosnian Muslim lobbyist Noel Malcolm admits this:


According to Noel Malcolm, the Albanians that were forced and settled by the Ottomans were mainly the Catholic Kelmendi tribe from the mountains of Northern Albania that had rebelled and held raids against the Ottomans. As a result, the Ottomans forcibly settled them in the plains to control them better. Many of these families returned to Northern Albania while some stayed.

Many Albanian Catholic families from the North Albanian mountains migrated after the 17th century into Kosovo and many of these families fled blood feuds or to find better land and make space for a bigger population, many of these families also converted to Islam in the Kosovo region.



And by the way, there might have been some Albanians in Dušan's army, from Albania itself, not from Kosovo, since he controlled 90% of Albania.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Rozw%C3%B3j_terytorialny_Serbii_w_XII-XIV_wieku.png?1643561195144

[Hulu]

^ But one tribe does not make the Kosovo population. That doesn't say anything. Or a few tribes. This was a nicely populated area, the Kosovo plain is fertile and favorable for living. Serbs didn't find it empty of natives for them to settle. And Dusan "controlling" 90% of Albania is a gross exaggeration. He treated Albanians as allies and merely declared himself king of the region. In reality he couldn't as much have any serbs settle there as he did in Macedonia and Greece.

[Dušan]

^ But one tribe does not make the Kosovo population. That doesn't say anything. Or a few tribes. This was a nicely populated area, the Kosovo plain is fertile and favorable for living. Serbs didn't find it empty of natives for them to settle.

I didnt say it was empty.
There were various pre-Slavic (Vlach) tribes all across Kosovo and other parts of Serbia.
They mixed with Slavic Serbs, and they are incorporated into our genetics.

Thats why we do not cluster in autosomal genetics with Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, but southern.

[Hulu]

I didnt say it was empty.
There were various pre-Slavic (Vlach) tribes all across Kosovo and other parts of Serbia.
They mixed with Slavic Serbs, and they are incorporated into our genetics.

Thats why we do not cluster in autosomal genetics with Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, but southern.

Sorry to break it to you but they were Albanians. And you only mixed with a part of them. The rest remained Albanians. They didn't come from Caucasus or with Turks.

[Dušan]

^ But one tribe does not make the Kosovo population.

But Kosovo Albanian population was quite small until recently.

Did you know that according to census 1931, there twice as many Serbs in Croatia (636,518), than Albanians in Serbia (355,517)?



Their number grew rapidly during Tito communits regime.

[Dušan]

Sorry to break it to you but they were Albanians. And you only mixed with a part of them. The rest remained Albanians. They didn't come from Caucasus or with Turks.

There was no partialy mixing. Neither that mixing was with Albanians.
Intermarriages were complete, and creating homogenous Serbian population in medieval Serbia.

Albanians came to Kosovo from Albania proper, during Ottoman times.
And their number exploded during Titos communist regime.

[Hulu]

But Kosovo Albanian population was quite small until recently.

Did you know that according to census 1931, there twice as many Serbs in Croatia (636,518), than Albanians in Serbia (355,517)?



Their number grew rapidly during Tito communits regime.

What year is that 355K number? It's not a small number anyway. Most of Europe was in much smaller number in the 1300's to 1800s

[Dušan]

What year is that 355K number? It's not a small number anyway. Most of Europe was in much smaller number in the 1300's to 1800s

Census 1931.

[Hulu]

There was no partialy mixing. Neither that mixing was with Albanians.
Intermarriages were complete, and creating homogenous Serbian population in medieval Serbia.

Albanians came to Kosovo from Albania proper, during Ottoman times.
And their number exploded during Titos communist regime.

Dardania/ Kosova was always inhabited by Illyrians. They considered themselves Illyrians and so did the rest of Europe. Justinian who was an Illyrian from that area considered himself Illyrian. Or Konstantine the Great. Vlachs were insignificant, and concentrated in a small area in Voskopoje, border with Greece and Macedonia. You know Vatican has the graves of all Illyrian popes together to respect their origins?

https://www.britannica.com/place/Illyria

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Nice. I have this clade as well according to 23andme. Are you ever planning to upgrade to Big Y?

Probably in the future, but I will most likely upgrade to 111 before Big Y anyways

[vbnetkhio]

Sorry to break it to you but they were Albanians. And you only mixed with a part of them. The rest remained Albanians. They didn't come from Caucasus or with Turks.

From a historical point of view, it's possible, but genetics disprove this.
It seems the Vlachs in the western Balkans, including Kosovo, were mostly Romanized Thracians (E-V13). Only in Albania some Illyrian genetics (r1b-z2103 and j2b2-l283) survived, but it was heavily settled by Thracians too.

[Dušan]

Sorry to break it to you but they were Albanians. And you only mixed with a part of them. The rest remained Albanians. They didn't come from Caucasus or with Turks.

You can check and compare Serb pre-Slavic haplogroups and their subclades with Albanian ones.
Lot of them are even absent among Albanians.
J2b-M205 for example.

Obvously, pre-Slavic populations of Balkans was very diverse and heterogeneous.

Pre-Slavic population of modern Albania was different of those in Serbia, Serbian pre-Slavic population different than those in Croatia, Bulgaria etc.

[Varda]

You can check and compare Serb pre-Slavic haplogroups and their subclades with Albanian ones.
Lot of them are even absent among Albanians.
J2b-M205 for example.

Obvously, pre-Slavic populations of Balkans was very diverse and heterogeneous.

Pre-Slavic population of modern Albania was different of those in Serbia, Serbian pre-Slavic population different than those in Croatia, Bulgaria etc.

Serbian pre-Slavic Y dna is different than Albanian.

J2b-M205 is about 4% in Serbs on average, and almost 0% in Albanians. Originated mostly from serbified Vlach clan Kriči https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

E-A18844 exist in Serbs and not in Albanians https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/
This branch is from Mataruge clan, who were Albanians only in the fantasy of Albanian trolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge

Kuči, Vasojevići and Bjelovići clans from Montenegro are E-V13 (their E-V13 is significant part of total Serbian E-V13), but their versions of E-V13 are several thousand years distant from Albanian ones.

Piperi are R1b-FT49714 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT49714/) and they don't have matches among Albanians. They have further matches among Bulgarians and East Serbian Vlachs.
Albanian mythomans same as for Mataruge, Kuči, Bjelopavlići, Buzmati etc. claim Albanian origin of Piperi :picard1:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperi_(tribe)

etc.

[Hulu]

What language did these "southern" people who lived there and neither Albanians nor other Europeans care to differentiate? There are no records of other people there other than vlachs who were never concentrated in one area. They were commonly called as Illyrians because of the common language. Despite the genetic differences some more northern and some more southern.
Either your southern source comes from avars and scythians or if it's local it's from Illyrians and common with Albanians.

[vbnetkhio]

Dardania/ Kosova was always inhabited by Illyrians. They considered themselves Illyrians and so did the rest of Europe. Justinian who was an Illyrian from that area considered himself Illyrian. Or Konstantine the Great. Vlachs were insignificant, and concentrated in a small area in Voskopoje, border with Greece and Macedonia. You know Vatican has the graves of all Illyrian popes together to respect their origins?

https://www.britannica.com/place/Illyria

You are wrong, the medieval documents from Serbia and Bosnia always mention Serbs and Vlachs as the local population. When the Serbian state started expanding into Macedonia and Albania, the documents start mentioning Albanians, Bulgarians, and also a lot of Vlachs.

this is where Vlachs live today . Not just in Voskopoje.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png/1280px-South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png

as you go back into history, they were even more widespread.

[GalenStark]

Serbian pre-Slavic Y dna is different than Albanian.

J2b-M205 is about 4% in Serbs on average, and almost 0% in Albanians. Originated mostly from serbified Vlach clan Kriči https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

E-A18844 exist in Serbs and not in Albanians https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/
This branch is from Mataruge clan, who were Albanians only in the fantasy of Albanian trolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge

Kuči, Vasojevići and Bjelovići clans from Montenegro are E-V13 (their E-V13 is significant part of total Serbian E-V13), but their versions of E-V13 are several thousand years distant from Albanian ones.

Piperi are R1b-FT49714 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT49714/) and they don't have matches among Albanians. They have further matches among Bulgarians and East Serbian Vlachs.
Albanian mythomans same as for Mataruge, Kuči, Bjelopavlići, Buzmati etc. claim Albanian origin of Piperi :picard1:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperi_(tribe)

etc.

You do realize Piperi share matches with Albaniams 950 years ago right? Unless you're smoking something, that clade descends from a Proto-Albanian.

[Hulu]

You are wrong, the medieval documents from Serbia and Bosnia always mention Serbs and Vlachs as the local population. When the Serbian state started expanding into Macedonia and Albania, the documents start mentioning Albanians, Bulgarians, and also a lot of Vlachs.

this is where Vlachs live today . Not just in Voskopoje.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png/1280px-Sog

as you go back into history, they were even more widespread.

So everybody documented Dardanians to live there but Serbs documented Vlachs to live there. Sounds fishy to me.

Strabo in his geographica mentions them as one of the three strongest Illyrian peoples, the other two being the Ardiaei and Autariatae.[22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dardania

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/DardaniaMap.png

[Jana]

From a historical point of view, it's possible, but genetics disprove this.
It seems the Vlachs in the western Balkans, including Kosovo, were mostly Romanized Thracians (E-V13). Only in Albania some Illyrian genetics (r1b-z2103 and j2b2-l283) survived, but it was heavily settled by Thracians too.

How do you explain western Balkan pre-Slavic matches better with Thracians (E-V13, autosomal) than Illyrians? I still wonder about this mystery.

[Varda]

How do you explain western Balkan pre-Slavic matches better with Thracians (E-V13, autosomal) than Illyrians? I still wonder about this mystery.

Maybe because Illyrians are replaced with some other population in Roman period.

[Hulu]

How do you explain western Balkan pre-Slavic matches better with Thracians (E-V13, autosomal) than Illyrians? I still wonder about this mystery.

It's not a mystery. It makes no sense.

[Jana]

Maybe because Illyrians are replaced with some other population in Roman period.

Romans resettled some Illyrian tribes after crushing their revolt. Maybe other Balkanites moved into their place?

[vbnetkhio]

So everybody documented Dardanians to live there but Serbs documented Vlachs to live there. Sounds fishy to me.

Generally, in the western Balkans Illyrians were demographically replaced by Thracians during the Roman rule. Dardanians were just one of many tribes. Maybe they were already mostly of Thracian origin before the Romans, or maybe they were also replaced.

When the Slavs came to the Balkans, they found mostly people who called themselves Romans, and spoke Latin, but they were genetically mostly of Thracian origin. The Slavs called them Vlachs, and they also called the medieval Italians by this name, it meant speaker of Latin.

If terms like Dardanian or Illyrian were used in later eras, it was just in a geographical meaning.

[Jana]

It's not a mystery. It makes no sense.

Still, no V13 was found among now rather plentiful Illyrian remnants, while Thracians has lot of it judging by Moeasian samples in Serbia.

[Dušan]

Serbian pre-Slavic Y dna is different than Albanian.

J2b-M205 is about 4% in Serbs on average, and almost 0% in Albanians. Originated mostly from serbified Vlach clan Kriči https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

E-A18844 exist in Serbs and not in Albanians https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/
This branch is from Mataruge clan, who were Albanians only in the fantasy of Albanian trolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge

Kuči, Vasojevići and Bjelovići clans from Montenegro are E-V13 (their E-V13 is significant part of total Serbian E-V13), but their versions of E-V13 are several thousand years distant from Albanian ones.

Piperi are R1b-FT49714 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT49714/) and they don't have matches among Albanians. They have further matches among Bulgarians and East Serbian Vlachs.
Albanian mythomans same as for Mataruge, Kuči, Bjelopavlići, Buzmati etc. claim Albanian origin of Piperi :picard1:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperi_(tribe)

etc.

Genetics clearly shows that those people were different than Albanians.


Albanians are just a small nation that had enormous demographic explosion in last less than 90 years.

In census 1931. there were only 355,517 Albanians in Serbia, 129,645 Albanians in North Macedonia.

Albania in that time (1931) had only 1,003,097 people, so lets say 900,000 ethnic Albanians.


Its so funny that this small tiny nation, claim all of Balkan ancient population were related to them.
It is hilarious.

This is their little homeland from where they spread in surrounding areas thanks to Ottomans.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Map_of_the_Principality_of_Arbanon.png

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Still, no V13 was found among now rather plentiful Illyrian remnants, while Thracians has lot of it judging by Moeasian samples in Serbia.

Because true Illyrian haplo is R1b

[Jana]

Because true Illyrian haplo is R1b

Most Illyrians tested are J2b-L283. They had presence of R1b yes, these probably brought IE language with them. And Illyrian was probably centum language

[Ayetooey]

Still, no V13 was found among now rather plentiful Illyrian remnants, while Thracians has lot of it judging by Moeasian samples in Serbia.


Generally, in the western Balkans Illyrians were demographically replaced by Thracians during the Roman rule. Dardanians were just one of many tribes. Maybe they were already mostly of Thracian origin before the Romans, or maybe they were also replaced.

When the Slavs came to the Balkans, they found mostly people who called themselves Romans, and spoke Latin, but they were genetically mostly of Thracian origin. The Slavs called them Vlachs, and they also called the medieval Italians by this name, it meant speaker of Latin.

If terms like Dardanian or Illyrian were used in later eras, it was just in a geographical meaning.


Because true Illyrian haplo is R1b

Illyrian haplos look to be R1B, J2b2, and some minor rare clades of I2, based on studies. No ev13. South-west Slavs have minimal R1B/J2B2, their pre slavic indigenous y dna is overwhelmingly EV13.

For examples, Serbs are around 15% E, 2.6% Balkan R1B, 1.25% J2b2. Even J2A is higher than the latter two at around 3%.

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Most Illyrians tested are J2b-L283. They had presence of R1b yes, these probably brought IE language with them. And Illyrian was probably centum language

Well it definitely wasnt Satem... maybe it was like Albanian and it was neither ;p

[Varda]

Romans resettled some Illyrian tribes after crushing their revolt. Maybe other Balkanites moved into their place?

Might be. Also Roman colonist from Italy were coming to the Balkan and mixed with natives.
Roman-Illyrian wars lasted several centuries and a lot of Illyrians died. Illyrian population was for sure significant smaller when Romans conquered them than before Romans. When i said Illyrian i think on western Balkan tribes - Illyrians was Greek-Roman umbrella for many tribes of western Balkan, and that tribes most likely were not all part of same ethnos and had diverse genetic. For example Dalmatae and Liburnians were mortal enemies before Romans and when Romans came. Liburnians were Roman allies against Dalmatea. They were not probably part of same ethnicity and official history recognize them just as tribes of same Illyrian ethnicity. According to some historians Liburnians were of Levantine origin and they came by sea, and Dalmatae were older them Liburnians in the western Balkans.

[Hulu]

Still, no V13 was found among now rather plentiful Illyrian remnants, while Thracians has lot of it judging by Moeasian samples in Serbia.

Give it time. Where did the samples come from?

[Jana]

Might be. Also Roman colonist from Italy were coming to the Balkan and mixed with natives.
Roman-Illyrian wars lasted several centuries and a lot of Illyrians died. Illyrian population was for sure significant smaller when Romans conquered them than before Romans. When i said Illyrian i think on western Balkan tribes - Illyrians was Greek-Roman umbrella for many tribes of western Balkan, and that tribes most likely were not all part of same ethnos and had diverse genetic. For example Dalmatae and Liburnians were mortal enemies before Romans and when Romans came. Liburnians were Roman allies against Dalmatea. They were not probably part of same ethnicity and official history recognize them just as tribes of same Illyrian ethnicity. According to some historians Liburnians were of Levantine origin and they came by sea, and Dalmatae were older them Liburnians in the western Balkans.

Yeah, but we have samples from Liburnians, Histri, Delmatae, even Panonnians and they are all genetically homogenous, like most northern shifted North Italians kind of.

[Jana]

Give it time. Where did the samples come from?

Croatia (all regions), Slovenia and southern Italy (Apulia)

[Varda]

---


---

It seems E-V13 was the strongest haplo among "Thracians", and they were much richer with this haplo than "Illyrians." And strong majority of present day Balkan E-V13 is "Thracian" heritage.

[vbnetkhio]

Romans resettled some Illyrian tribes after crushing their revolt. Maybe other Balkanites moved into their place?

yes, Thracians were Roman allies for some time before becoming incorporated into the empire, while Illyrians were conquered purely by force.
maybe this, in combination with some later unfortunate events.

[Jana]

Distance to: Croatia_IA

0.01155399 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01251120 Italian_Veneto
0.01665255 Italian_Bergamo
0.01989058 Italian_Northeast
0.02017045 French_Provence
0.02086882 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02146604 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02182941 Spanish_Baleares
0.02322095 Italian_Lombardy
0.02341551 Spanish_Girona
0.02442572 Italian_Piedmont
0.02452262 Spanish_Penedes
0.02497252 Swiss_French
0.02499532 Spanish_Menorca
0.02525368 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02635607 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02661250 Swiss_Italian
0.02662787 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02673346 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02675787 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02685927 Spanish_Lleida
0.02837549 French_Auvergne
0.02971066 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03056496 Italian_Liguria
0.03064298 Spanish_Pirineu

Target: Croatia_IA
Distance: 0.0108% / 0.01082656 | R2P

78.2 Italian_Veneto
21.8 Swiss_French

Target: Croatia_IA
Distance: 0.0106% / 0.01064520 | R2P

89.4 Italian_Veneto
10.6 Basque_Spanish

[Hulu]

Distance to: Croatia_IA

0.01155399 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01251120 Italian_Veneto
0.01665255 Italian_Bergamo
0.01989058 Italian_Northeast
0.02017045 French_Provence
0.02086882 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02146604 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02182941 Spanish_Baleares
0.02322095 Italian_Lombardy
0.02341551 Spanish_Girona
0.02442572 Italian_Piedmont
0.02452262 Spanish_Penedes
0.02497252 Swiss_French
0.02499532 Spanish_Menorca
0.02525368 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02635607 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02661250 Swiss_Italian
0.02662787 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02673346 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02675787 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02685927 Spanish_Lleida
0.02837549 French_Auvergne
0.02971066 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03056496 Italian_Liguria
0.03064298 Spanish_Pirineu

Target: Croatia_IA
Distance: 0.0108% / 0.01082656 | R2P

78.2 Italian_Veneto
21.8 Swiss_French

Target: Croatia_IA
Distance: 0.0106% / 0.01064520 | R2P

89.4 Italian_Veneto
10.6 Basque_Spanish

Even from TA Albanians a few of them plotted similar to this, Fustan and IceTea. And another guy later that I don't remember who thought he might have some Italian origins as well.

[Jana]

Distance to: ITA_Daunian

0.02221443 French_Corsica
0.03277502 Italian_Tuscany
0.03517821 Italian_Piedmont
0.03525752 Italian_Bergamo
0.03630346 Italian_Lombardy
0.03636843 Italian_Umbria
0.03750586 Italian_Lazio
0.03844236 Italian_Marche
0.03949504 Italian_Veneto
0.03992976 Swiss_Italian
0.04283707 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04338826 Italian_Liguria
0.04363206 Spanish_Menorca
0.04534384 Spanish_Baleares
0.04607951 Greek_Thessaly
0.04622509 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04647217 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04756841 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04783364 Italian_Molise
0.04820213 Albanian
0.04881047 Spanish_Murcia
0.04894310 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04894385 Greek_Laconia
0.04950861 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04956871 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

Target: ITA_Daunian
Distance: 0.0203% / 0.02031876 | R2P

71.9 Italian_Tuscany
28.1 Sardinian

[Hulu]

yes, Thracians were Roman allies for some time before becoming incorporated into the empire, while Illyrians were conquered purely by force.
maybe this, in combination with some later unfortunate events.

what a twist of real history, lol

[Jana]

Even from TA Albanians a few of them plotted similar to this, Fustan and IceTea. And another guy later that I don't remember who thought he might have some Italian origins as well.

Yeah, I think guys like Ice T have strong Illyrian shift (he is J2b too). But plotting can be misleading, Albanians have Slavic etc too.
best to see how they model

[Hulu]

Distance to: ITA_Daunian

0.02221443 French_Corsica
0.03277502 Italian_Tuscany
0.03517821 Italian_Piedmont
0.03525752 Italian_Bergamo
0.03630346 Italian_Lombardy
0.03636843 Italian_Umbria
0.03750586 Italian_Lazio
0.03844236 Italian_Marche
0.03949504 Italian_Veneto
0.03992976 Swiss_Italian
0.04283707 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04338826 Italian_Liguria
0.04363206 Spanish_Menorca
0.04534384 Spanish_Baleares
0.04607951 Greek_Thessaly
0.04622509 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04647217 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04756841 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04783364 Italian_Molise
0.04820213 Albanian
0.04881047 Spanish_Murcia
0.04894310 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04894385 Greek_Laconia
0.04950861 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04956871 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

Target: ITA_Daunian
Distance: 0.0203% / 0.02031876 | R2P

71.9 Italian_Tuscany
28.1 Sardinian

what are you using for this? I want to compare with mine

[Hulu]

Yeah, I think guys like Ice T have strong Illyrian shift (he is J2b too). But plotting can be misleading, Albanians have Slavic etc too.
best to see how they model

No they had high North Atlantic all 3of them

[Jana]

No they had high North Atlantic all 3of them

so what? All Albanians have Slavic admixture.
North Italians plot with Italics, but they aren't their pure descendants.

[Hulu]

so what? All Albanians have Slavic admixture.
North Italians plot with Italics, but they aren't their pure descendants.

No they don't. And the ones that do have high Baltic not North Atlantic. Those with the high North Atlantic are the transitory ones between North Italians and the rest of Albanians.

[Jana]

No they don't. And the ones that do have high Baltic not North Atlantic. Those with the high North Atlantic are the transitory ones between North Italians and the rest of Albanians.

nonsense. Albanians can't be modeled without early Slavic and Thracian/Roman samples. You can try to model them just with Illyrians, we're waiting.

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

No they don't. And the ones that do have high Baltic not North Atlantic. Those with the high North Atlantic are the transitory ones between North Italians and the rest of Albanians.

I have high N Atlantic and low Baltic

[Hulu]

nonsense. Albania ns can't be modeled without early Slavic and Thracian/Roman samples. You can try to model them just with Illyrians, we're waiting.

key word "early slavic". Different from south slavs

Anyway, can you give me the coordinates for the sample above that I wanted to compare

[Hulu]

I have high N Atlantic and low Baltic

Great. There are many of you that make up that transit area as I said.

[Jana]

key word "early slavic". Different from south slavs

Anyway, can you give me the coordinates for the sample above that I wanted to compare


Croatia_IA,0.1279371,0.1472518,0.0327719,-0.0010659,0.0357912,-0.0008367,0.0013395,0.0026077,0.0106761,0.026971,-0.0002598,0.0089171,-0.0164866,-0.0073076,-0.0022122,-0.00179,0.0047459,0.0030532,0.0073155,-0.0047398,-0.0017719,0.0020526,0.0009982,-0.0002049,-0.0026345

you can try this too


ITA_Daunian,0.1242297,0.161034,0.0205801,-0.0283317,0.0360066,-0.0113151,0.0042301,-0.0021427,0.0163329,0.0418103,-0.0042919,0.0088209,-0.0159491,-0.0070386,-0.012234,0.0034283,0.0074691,-0.002751,0.0005924,0.0026977,0.0016933,0.0048224,0 .0031339,0.0035631,-0.0040371

[rothaer]

yes, Thracians were Roman allies for some time before becoming incorporated into the empire, while Illyrians were conquered purely by force.
maybe this, in combination with some later unfortunate events.

This is one of the key events and should be looked at closer.

Are there historical records as for such settlements (becasue of the genetics I don't really doubt it, I'm just curious)?

Do you think the Justinianic plague and the Slav-Avar raids did hit Illyria and Thracia differently? (I know that both is later than than what you said happened in the Roman period.)

[Hulu]

Distance to: Hulu_scaled
0.05103000 ITA_Daunian
0.05733226 Croatia_IA

Target: Hulu_scaled
Distance: 4.9270% / 0.04926990
68.8 ITA_Daunian
31.2 Croatia_IA

[Jana]

Distance to: Hulu_scaled
0.05103000 ITA_Daunian
0.05733226 Croatia_IA

Target: Hulu_scaled
Distance: 4.9270% / 0.04926990
68.8 ITA_Daunian
31.2 Croatia_IA

see? Distance is still high.

[Hulu]

see? Distance is still high.

Not too high given that I am southern plotting. As I said Fustan or Ice Tea would score closer.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

North Italians plot with Italics, but they aren't their pure descendants.

Don't want to be a nitpicker, but the Italic average plots alone in the PCA and still seems to shift more in the direction of Iberia rather than Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/jaOOw9l.png

https://i.imgur.com/oGxHD3O.png

[Glauk]

Genetics clearly shows that those people were different than Albanians.


Albanians are just a small nation that had enormous demographic explosion in last less than 90 years.

In census 1931. there were only 355,517 Albanians in Serbia, 129,645 Albanians in North Macedonia.

Albania in that time (1931) had only 1,003,097 people, so lets say 900,000 ethnic Albanians.


Its so funny that this small tiny nation, claim all of Balkan ancient population were related to them.
It is hilarious.

This is their little homeland from where they spread in surrounding areas thanks to Ottomans.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Map_of_the_Principality_of_Arbanon.png



Lol and how did some savege pastorialist managed to have such a rich latin terminology? If they came from mountains? And how did the romans convert them if they lived in the mountains?



The ancestors of proto-albanians were city/lowlands folk who were pushed in to the mountains by barbarians, conscription and plagues. Wich civilisation would choose dinara mountains over Adriatic sea?

[vbnetkhio]

This is one of the key events and should be looked at closer.

Are there historical records as for such settlements (becasue of the genetics I don't really doubt it, I'm just curious)?

Do you think the Justinianic plague and the Slav-Avar raids did hit Illyria and Thracia differently? (I know that both is later than than what you said happened in the Roman period.)

There should be some, I'm not aware them yet. I've seen studies on the Roman population of Moesia, it was mostly of local origin + from the neighbouring provinces, like Macedonia.

I always just assumed pre-Slavic west Balkanians were Romanized Illyrians.
Actually, most of our knowledge on Illyrians comes from grave inscriptions of Romanized Illyrians, so there was such a population at one point.

Maybe those later events like the Justinianic plague, Huns, Avars were in fact more important for the decline of the Illyrians.

[Dušan]

"The Ottoman pasha of Ipek forcibly removed Catholic inhabitants of northern Albania into the plains of southern Serbia after a failed Serb revolt in 1689 and the flight of many Serbs to the Habsburg Empire. The transferred villagers were forced to convert over to Islam."

The plains of southern Serbia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Kosovo_map-en.svg

[Varda]

There should be some, I'm not aware them yet. I've seen studies on the Roman population of Moesia, it was mostly of local origin + from the neighbouring provinces, like Macedonia.

I always just assumed pre-Slavic west Balkanians were Romanized Illyrians.
Actually, most of our knowledge on Illyrians comes from grave inscriptions of Romanized Illyrians, so there was such a population at one point.

Maybe those later events like the Justinianic plague, Huns, Avars were in fact more important for the decline of the Illyrians.

Historians thought for example Kriči were romanized Illyrians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

Their paternal line J2-Y155175 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y155375/) is not native Balkan, Illyrian whatever, but most likely came to the Balkans from Syria/Levant in late Roman period.

Paternal ancestor of Kriči was probably Roman soldier or merchant of Syrian/Levantine origin who came to Balkans.

[Varda]

..

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Not too high given that I am southern plotting. As I said Fustan or Ice Tea would score closer.

Bulgaria_IA, the Daunian sample and Croatia_IA were on a different cline than the current one. It's not just a matter of north/south, but also east/west.

https://i.imgur.com/sDcmkBD.png

[Roy]

Lol and how did some savege pastorialist managed to have such a rich latin terminology? If they came from mountains? And how did the romans convert them if they lived in the mountains?



The ancestors of proto-albanians were city/lowlands folk who were pushed in to the mountains by barbarians, conscription and plagues. Wich civilisation would choose dinara mountains over Adriatic sea?

Yup. One could find a lot analogies that would prove your theory especially as we know well about the vibrant culture of piracy in the Adriatic Sea, but it is not a certain thing about Albanians.

[Roy]

nonsense. Albanians can't be modeled without early Slavic and Thracian/Roman samples. You can try to model them just with Illyrians, we're waiting.

Do we know when did Slavic enter their gene pool? During the initial Slavic wave or later on? Or was it a gradual process? I am curious. Probably more admixture from Early Slavs than from the actual South Slavs as they are understood now.

[Glauk]

Yup. One could find a lot analogies that would prove your theory especially as we know well about the vibrant culture of piracy in the Adriatic Sea, but it is not a certain thing about Albanians.


But don’t forget that the strongest pirates in Ottoman Empire were Albanians!!!! Ulqinj and Vlora pirates terrorised the whole adriatic, they went far as england on raids.
The famus barbarossa and his brothers were of albanian decent

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_piracy

[Jana]

Croatia has strongest pirate tradition in the Balkans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domagoj_of_Croatia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks

Ulcinj was a pirate nest, but as far as I know it hosted lot of middle easterners and also Africans, not sure how exactly Albanian they were.


By the end of the 16th century, around 400 pirates from Malta, Tunisia, and Algeria were based in Ulcinj.

[Roy]

But don’t forget that the strongest pirates in Ottoman Empire were Albanians!!!! Ulqinj and Vlora pirates terrorised the whole adriatic, they went far as england on raids.
The famus barbarossa and his brothers were of albanian decent

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_piracy

Interesting.

[Jana]

Don't want to be a nitpicker, but the Italic average plots alone in the PCA and still seems to shift more in the direction of Iberia rather than Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/jaOOw9l.png

https://i.imgur.com/oGxHD3O.png

sure, but they are also pretty colse to north Italians, even though North Italians were shifted south by Imperial Roman admix and than shifted back north by Germanic admix.
which would make them superficially similar to Italics but in modeling and deep component breakdown they will be clearly different.

[Jana]

Do we know when did Slavic enter their gene pool? During the initial Slavic wave or later on? Or was it a gradual process? I am curious. Probably more admixture from Early Slavs than from the actual South Slavs as they are understood now.

I assume there was gradual Slavic settlement of Balkan peninsula that lasted few centuries. Yeah, pretty sure Slavic in Albanians in from this early influence, when those Slavs were still Ukrainian/Belarussian like genetically.
There was later mixing in some border areas like Montenegro (in both directions) etc, but it's not that prominent.

[Glauk]

Croatia has strongest pirate tradition in the Balkans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domagoj_of_Croatia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks

Ulcinj was a pirate nest, but as far as I know it hosted lot of middle easterners and also Africans, not sure how exactly Albanian they were.


Yeah croats to, but i have heard a lot of times how we Albanians have nothing to do with sea and water(trying to deny our illyrian origin) and how we were only mercenaries and shepherds but tend to forget that Albanians continued with piracy till the 18-19 century

[Glauk]

I assume there was gradual Slavic settlement of Balkan peninsula that lasted few centuries. Yeah, pretty sure Slavic in Albanians in from this early influence, when those Slavs were still Ukrainian/Belarussian like genetically.
There was later mixing in some border areas like Montenegro (in both directions) etc, but it's not that prominent.



The pirate blood is still strong in us, we just changed the ships with cargo, with narcotics ;)

[Jana]

Yeah croats to, but i have heard a lot of times how we Albanians have nothing have to do with sea and water(trying to deny our illyrian origin) and how we were only mercenaries and shepherds but tend to forget that Albanians continued with piracy till the 18-19 century

Thing is that if we will observe genetics, no nation is more than just partly Illyrian by descent. Something terrible happened to Illyrians if DNA gives some clues, almost like a genocide.
There is somewhat of preserved IIlyrian genetics in northern Albanian mountains like among Malesors, but overall I'm surprised how little of these people DNA remains.

Dalmatian Croats can't be modeled with Illyrians either.

[Hulu]

"The Ottoman pasha of Ipek forcibly removed Catholic inhabitants of northern Albania into the plains of southern Serbia after a failed Serb revolt in 1689 and the flight of many Serbs to the Habsburg Empire. The transferred villagers were forced to convert over to Islam."

The plains of southern Serbia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Kosovo_mapg

You cant make a generalization out of this. It still doesnt explain how Illyrians went extinct in Kosovo to be replaced with Vlachs who were then absorbed by Serbs. As for your example there were a few people who moved probably especially since it says Serbs fled to Serbia, because they were a minority there most likely so it was easier for them to survive in majority serb areas under Habsburgs..

[Glauk]

Thing is that if we will observe genetics, no nation is more than just partly Illyrian by descent. Something terrible happened to Illyrians if DNA gives some clues, almost like a genocide.
There is somewhat of preserved IIlyrian genetics in northern Albanian mountains like among Malesors, but overall I'm surprised how little of these people DNA remains.

Dalmatian Croats can't be modeled with Illyrians either.

I was watching some kings and generals video about the byzanthine wars with sassanids, and they would always conscript boys/male from the balkans, probably heavy conscription with plagues and climate change that was devastating and when the empire starte To crumble it was an open road for other people to settle.

Those who survived were pushed south in the mountains

[Roy]

all studies on the matter prove that every few generations there is a change of male line (not necessarily an adultery, but probably most often so), so no one can base haplogroup on continued ancestry in a certain place or within a certain family. hg are good for populational studies and research, but for individuals it's quite nothing relevant. autosomal will say the more relevant percentage of various macro-components (like Farmer vs HG vs Steppe vs African vs Siberian vs Asian etc)

I don't think it is likely to happen as often as you imply.

[Kenshiro]

so what? All Albanians have Slavic admixture.
North Italians plot with Italics, but they aren't their pure descendants.
I have a fairly high dose of Italic blood, I think it is direct but i don't know, basically 60/70% Italic/Hellenic, the rest is divisible into Balto-Slavic and Caucasian blood, and in reality i am almost equidistant between Calabria and a part of northern Italy (Emilia, Liguria etc.) even though i am originally from southern Italy (Apulia)
First with Yourdnaportal and second with Gedmatch
112393
112394
First with yourdnaportal, second with gedmatch,
the difference is that on Gedmatch I have 1% more than Baltic on Yourdnaportal 1% more than Atlantic
112395
Ancient DNA from yourdnaportal eurogenes K15
112396
I don't think there are pure descendants of the Italics, because there were too many ancient people in Italy

[Dušan]

You cant make a generalization out of this. It still doesnt explain how Illyrians went extinct in Kosovo to be replaced with Vlachs who were then absorbed by Serbs. As for your example there were a few people who moved probably especially since it says Serbs fled to Serbia, because they were a minority there most likely so it was easier for them to survive in majority serb areas under Habsburgs..

Serbs fled from southern areas because they sided with the Austrians during Ottoman-Habsburg war, and they knew there will be bloody Ottoman revange if Austrians lose.
In the first stage, the Habsburgs penetrated to south, all the way to Skopje. With their retreat, local Kosovo & Metohija Serbs joined them.

That was migration of 1690, after which Kosovo-Metohija area became semi-empty, and then Ottomans started with colonisation of Albanians from nearby mountains of northern Albania.

[revolution]

You cant make a generalization out of this. It still doesnt explain how Illyrians went extinct in Kosovo to be replaced with Vlachs who were then absorbed by Serbs. As for your example there were a few people who moved probably especially since it says Serbs fled to Serbia, because they were a minority there most likely so it was easier for them to survive in majority serb areas under Habsburgs..


There was never any mass forcible settlements of Albanians or
forcible conversion. This was mainly the Kelemdendi which
constantly raided the Ottomans so the Ottomans tried to settle
them in the plains but this happened a bit later.

There was never any 'Great Migration' of Serbs out of Kosovo
in 1689 and this was shown by Noel Malcolm here: https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/oso/9780198857297.001.0001/oso-9780198857297-chapter-7

Also before 1689 Kosovo had a large Albanian population, most
of Western Kosovo was Albanian inhabited and it was shown
these Albanians revolted against the Ottomans and took part
on the Habsburg side. This was also shown by Noel Malcolm.

This was also shown by Johan Georg Von Hahn:



An interesting fact emerges from these historical events – that in 1689 Dardania had a plentiful and warrior Albanian population, because it is highly unlikely in my view that the Albanians mentioned here came over from Albania itself to join Imperial forces. The question as to whether these Albanians were Christians or Muslims is not answered in the above-mentioned work. An edition of source material about the Dardanian campaign of Imperial troops would provide a substantial contribution to our knowledge of this region and its inhabitants and would
also be of great interest for our military history because names like Starhemberg and Veterani appear in it. No one would be better suited for this than the biographer of the former.


http://albanianhistory.net/1858_Hahn/index.html


The Habsburg 1689 in Kosovo did not include only a Serb revolt or a supposed 'Great Serbian Migration' as there was
a large Albanian population in the region that also revolted against the Ottomans. It was shown by Noel Malcolm most of these Albanians were also Muslims.

As for Vlachs being absorbed into Serbs supposedly.

Serbian expansion did not begin in Kosovo until the 12th century:



See van Wijk, 'Taalkunde gegevens'; quotation from p. 71. The modern dialect of Serbo-Croat which borders Macedonian and Bulgarian territory,
the 'Timok-Prizren' dialect, does have some transitional features; but research has shown that it picked them up only after the medieval expansion of the Serbian state into Kosovo and the Morava valley, which brought its speakers into closer contact with Bulgarian (ibid., pp. 62, 71).





There is no evidence of Serbs in Kosovo before the 12th century. Their homeland was 'Rashka' North-West of it. And when they do expand, they do mention
Albanians and Vlachs in the region.

Under Stefan Dusans Empire there was a law that forbid marriage with Vlachs.



Therein is included a prohibition of intermarriage between Serbs and Vlachs



Vlachs were the lowest social status. They do not speak of any kind of assimilations of Vlachs into Serbs.



It was also shown that these Vlachs were Romanians/Aromanians. They were Eastern Latin speakers.



Katun (Albanian: Katund; Romanian: Cătun; Serbian: Катун) is the name for the form of medieval self-governing community (family, settlement) in the Balkans. It is very similar to a Turkish: cemaât, Arabic: جماعة, romanized: jamaat, lit. 'congregation'. This form of association of people is a consequence of the absence of strong central government, and is observed in documents from the second half of the 14th and 15th centuries. It is often associated with a living style of "Vlachs" (that is, Eastern Romance people) in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia,



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katun_(commune)



They lived in Katuns which means 'Village' in the Albanian and Aromanian/Romanian language. In Romanian 'Sat' is also used and in Albanian 'Fshat' . Serbian scriptures
mention Vlach and Albanian Katuns in Kosovo

Today you can find Romanian toponyms near Kosovo such as 'Surdul'

There are also toponyms in Serbia and Montenegro called 'Katun' still to this day.



In the battle of Kosovo 1448, Serbian despotate fought on the Ottoman side against Albanians and Hungarians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo_(1448)

[Hulu]

Serbs fled from southern areas because they sided with the Austrians during Ottoman-Habsburg war, and they knew there will be bloody Ottoman revange if Austrians lose.
In the first stage, the Habsburgs penetrated to south, all the way to Skopje. With their retreat, local Kosovo & Metohija Serbs joined them.

That was migration of 1690, after which Kosovo-Metohija area became semi-empty, and then Ottomans started with colonisation of Albanians from nearby mountains of northern Albania.

But there weren't that many people from Northern Albania to repopulate Kosovo, Albanians were already there..Northern Albania is a mountainous area, sparsely populated unlike the plains of Kosovo.

[Hulu]

There was never any mass forcible settlements of Albanians or
forcible conversion. This was mainly the Kelemdendi which
constantly raided the Ottomans so the Ottomans tried to settle
them in the plains but this happened a bit later.



I know :D, that's why I am saying "probably" even though it's a single example, no source etc. I am just trying to make them think of the big picture, how it makes no sense for some many logical leaps just to prove a faulty theory.

[revolution]

Interesting.

Albanian language shows relationship to Messpian who were an Illyrian sea people



Linguistic evidence suggest that Messapic could have been the descendant of an unattested paleo-Balkanic language.[12] Based upon lexical similarities with the Illyrian languages, some scholars contend that Messapic may have developed from a dialect of pre-Illyrian, meaning that it would have diverged substantially from the Illyrian language(s) spoken in the Balkans by the 5th century BC.[13] A number of shared features with proto-Albanian may have emerged on their side as a result of linguistic contacts between Proto-Messapic and Pre-Proto-Albanian within the Balkan peninsula in prehistoric times.[


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language



The branches of Albanian J2b2-L283 were found in the coastal area of Croatia. They fall under the same branch as Albanian.


As for Croats supposedly being descendants of 'Sea Pirates' , they mainly found large parts of Croatia empty and adopted to the sea. There were some left overs of Illyro-Romans in the islands
that were eventually assimilated. The rest of Illyrian sea people were never assimilated.


Also for example, Albanian most likely survived as a result of contraction as the result of Roman incursion and after Roman-Illyrian wars and not because they had never been sea people or any other thing. Even Vlachs are believed to be a branch of Albanians that shifted over to the Latin language
according to Eric Hamp.

[Varda]

Serbs fled from southern areas because they sided with the Austrians during Ottoman-Habsburg war, and they knew there will be bloody Ottoman revange if Austrians lose.
In the first stage, the Habsburgs penetrated to south, all the way to Skopje. With their retreat, local Kosovo & Metohija Serbs joined them.

That was migration of 1690, after which Kosovo-Metohija area became semi-empty, and then Ottomans started with colonisation of Albanians from nearby mountains of northern Albania.

Kosovo was central area from where Serbs migrated to Pannonia in large numbers in 1690. After the Serbian migration Otomans brought Albanians from northern Albanian on semi empty land as you said.
https://i.ibb.co/3W3ykLx/enm03zctyrr61-2.jpg

[Dušan]

But there weren't that many people from Northern Albania to repopulate Kosovo, Albanians were already there..Northern Albania is a mountainous area, sparsely populated unlike the plains of Kosovo.

Neither there were many Albanians in Kosovo until recently.

I have already gave you data for census 1931. there were only 355,517 Albanians in entire Serbia.
Of this, 331,549 was in Kosovo-Metohija, and rest in Preševo, Bujanovac etc.

For example, there were more Germans in northern Serbia in 1931, who began to settle in Pannonian basin in 1750, than Albanians.

[revolution]

I know :D, that's why I am saying "probably" even though it's a single example, no source etc. I am just trying to make them think of the big picture, how it makes no sense for some many logical leaps just to prove a faulty theory.

Most of those tribes that settled were from the Highlands of Gjakova anyway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlands_of_Gjakova which included Western Kosovo, North-Eastern Albania and
Eastern Montenegro and was part of the Dardanian area.


Morina tribe originated within the modern borders of Kosovo , their tribal area is in Western Kosovo .


Kosovo already had a large Albanian population before these tribes were even recorded settling.

[revolution]

Neither there were many Albanians in Kosovo until recently.

I have already gave you data for census 1931. there were only 355,517 Albanians in entire Serbia.
Of this, 331,549 was in Kosovo-Metohija, and rest in Preševo, Bujanovac etc.

For example, there were more Germans in northern Serbia in 1931, who began to settle in Pannonian basin in 1750, than Albanians.


Those statistics you showed are after the colonization of Kosovo after hundreds of thousands of Albanians were expelled and Serbs were settled which put the Albanian population down.

All statistics from 1870 and up to 1912 show a majority Albanian population and it was the birthplace and center of the Albanian national movement and there were Albanian revolts against
the Ottomans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912 ,


Serbian occupation of Kosovo happened only after post first Balkan Wars and it was never legally incorporated into Serbia but later into Yugoslavia

[revolution]

There is no evidence of Serbs in Kosovo before the 12th century:

See van Wijk, 'Taalkunde gegevens'; quotation from p. 71. The modern dialect of Serbo-Croat which borders Macedonian and Bulgarian territory,
the 'Timok-Prizren' dialect, does have some transitional features; but research has shown that it picked them up only after the medieval expansion of the Serbian state into Kosovo and the Morava valley, which brought its speakers into closer contact with Bulgarian (ibid., pp. 62, 71).


Serbian homeland was Rashka. They managed to invade and colonize Kosovo between the 12th to 15th century which is also how they expanded their territory into modern Serbia.

[Dušan]

Under Stefan Dusans Empire there was a law that forbid marriage with Vlachs.

Vlachs were the lowest social status. They do not speak of any kind of assimilations of Vlachs into Serbs.

If we didnt mix with Vlachs then we would cluster in autosomal genetics with Poles, Ukrainians and Russians.
But it is not the case, we have clearly Mediterranean component, along with proto-Slavic.

Vlachs mentioned in Dušan's code were social term meaning shepherds, who had wider privileges and easier life, than farmers who were attached to the feud.
He didnt want to farmers to escape from feudal possessions.

[Varda]

Neither there were many Albanians in Kosovo until recently.

I have already gave you data for census 1931. there were only 355,517 Albanians in entire Serbia.
Of this, 331,549 was in Kosovo-Metohija, and rest in Preševo, Bujanovac etc.

For example, there were more Germans in northern Serbia in 1931, who began to settle in Pannonian basin in 1750, than Albanians.

Number of Germans and Albanians in Serbia between WW1 and WW2 was similar.

[revolution]

Albanoi inscriptions found in Ancient Dardania:



In the archaeological record, the Albanoi and Albanopolis have been directly attested on two funeral inscriptions. The toponym Albanopolis has been found on a funeral inscription in Gorno Sonje, near the city of Skopje (ancient Scupi), present-day North Macedonia.[13] It was excavated in 1931 by Nikola Vulić and its text was curated and published in 1982 by Borka Dragojević-Josifovska. The inscription in Latin reads "POSIS MESTYLU F[ILIUS] FL[AVIA] DELVS MVCATI F[ILIA] DOM[O] ALBANOP[OLI] IPSA DELVS" ("Posis Mestylu, son of Flavia, daughter of Delus Mucati, who comes from Albanopolis"). It dates to the end of the 1st century CE and the beginning of the 2nd century CE. Dragojević-Josifovska added two lines to the existing reading: VIVA P(OSUIT) SIBI/ ET VIRO SUO. Delus Mucati is an Illyrian name and his home region was Albanopolis (domo Albanopoli). Dragojević-Josifovska proposed that like others he had settled in Macedonia from southern Illyria.




Serbs were later invaders that arrived here later

[Dušan]

Those statistics you showed are after the colonization of Kosovo after hundreds of thousands of Albanians were expelled and Serbs were settled which put the Albanian population down.

All statistics from 1870 and up to 1912 show a majority Albanian population and it was the birthplace and center of the Albanian national movement and there were Albanian revolts against
the Ottomans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912 ,


Serbian occupation of Kosovo happened only after post first Balkan Wars and it was never legally incorporated into Serbia but later into Yugoslavia

Those statistics are completly clear and true.

There were only 355,517 Albanians in Serbia, of which 331,549 in Kosovo-Metohija.

You had enormous population growth during Tito's Yugoslavia, like never before.

[Hulu]

Neither there were many Albanians in Kosovo until recently.

I have already gave you data for census 1931. there were only 355,517 Albanians in entire Serbia.
Of this, 331,549 was in Kosovo-Metohija, and rest in Preševo, Bujanovac etc.

For example, there were more Germans in northern Serbia in 1931, who began to settle in Pannonian basin in 1750, than Albanians.

331K in 1930 it's not a small population for that time for a small region as Kosovo. Belgrade had 100K people in 1920, it has 1.4 million now.

[Varda]

Albanoi inscriptions found in Ancient Dardania:





Serbs were later invaders that arrived here later

Take your pills!

[revolution]

The 'Great Migration' of Serbs out of Kosovo is a hoax



This essay examines both the historical facts concerning the migration of Serbs from Kosovo in 1690, and the claims made about that migration by subsequent historians—claims which, at their most extreme, suggested that hundreds of thousands of Serbs departed, with huge effects on the ethnic composition of the region. This essay demonstrates that there was no large-scale organized exodus of Serbs under the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, Arsenije Crnojević: his departure from Kosovo in early 1690 was extremely hasty, and he had not, in any case, been leading organized resistance to the Ottomans. A large number of Serbs did move with the Patriarch to Hungarian territory later in that year; he himself gave their numbers as 30,000 or 40,000. But they had gathered, from many areas, in the Belgrade region, and only a small proportion were from Kosovo itself. One unsupported claim was made many years later, by a Serbian monk, that the Patriarch had brought 37,000 families to Hungary; and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries many Serb writers interpreted that figure maximally, while also assuming that all those people had come from Kosovo. This essay analyses the ideological influences (operating primarily on Serbs within the Habsburg territories in the nineteenth century) that helped to shape that interpretation; it also criticizes excessive claims made by modern Albanian and Turkish historians.


https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/oso/9780198857297.001.0001/oso-9780198857297-chapter-7

[Jana]

Albanians modeling only with Illyrians and Slavs (Daunians were probably mixed with locals in Apulia btw, surely less pure than Croatian IA)

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0357% / 0.03572468

69.8 ITA_Daunian
20.4 Ukrainian_Rivne
9.8 HRV_EIA

bad fit obviously

with Thracians added, fit is quite better and it doesn't register Illyrian at all

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0218% / 0.02176063

70.5 BGR_IA
29.5 Ukrainian_Rivne

with Imperial Romans added, now fit is very good and tight
and it registers minor Illyrian input

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0133% / 0.01327796

32.9 BGR_IA
31.5 ITA_Rome_Imperial
28.8 Ukrainian_Rivne
4.9 HRV_EIA
1.9 ITA_Daunian

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Albanians modeling only with Illyrians and Slavs (Daunians were probably mixed with locals in Apulia btw, surely less pure than Croatian IA)

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0357% / 0.03572468

69.8 ITA_Daunian
20.4 Ukrainian_Rivne
9.8 HRV_EIA

bad fit obviously

with Thracians added, fit is quite better and it doesn't register Illyrian at all

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0218% / 0.02176063

70.5 BGR_IA
29.5 Ukrainian_Rivne

with Imperial Romans added, now fit is very good and tight
and it registers minor Illyrian input

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0133% / 0.01327796

32.9 BGR_IA
31.5 ITA_Rome_Imperial
28.8 Ukrainian_Rivne
4.9 HRV_EIA
1.9 ITA_Daunian

Then explain the linguistic connection.

[Jana]

Then explain the linguistic connection.

Point is that by modeling with Illyrians, even those in Apulia is rejected for Albanians (and other Balkanites)
Thracians and Imperial Romans provide much better models with tighter fits.

[Varda]

Then explain the linguistic connection.

Which linguistic connection?

Albanian language has more similarity with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian and Mrglenitic) than with Dalmatian Romance (language of romanized Illyrians).

[rothaer]

Is Albanian likely to be a Thracian language after all?

[Varda]

Which linguistic connection?

Albanian language has more similarity with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian and Mrglenitic) than with Dalmatian Romance (language of romanized Illyrians).


https://youtu.be/5P8cjoJPkKg

[Dušan]

331K in 1930 it's not a small population for that time for a small region as Kosovo. Belgrade had 100K people in 1920, it has 1.4 million now.

You can't compare one city with constant immigrations, with population size of one ethnic group.

As already said, there were 2 times more Serbs in Croatia, than Albanians in Serbia in 1931.
60 years later, in 1991, there were almost 3 times more Albanians in Serbia, than Serbs in Croatia.


All your breeding and multiplying in Serbia, was funded and financed by Croatians and Slovenes.

[Varda]

Is Albanian likely to be a Thracian language after all?

Proto Albanians most likely originated from non-romanized or partly romanized Thracian tribe Bessi from present day Bulgaria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Albanian presence in modern Albanian is result of Albanian migration in 9th/10th century from Bulgaria. Their presence in Kosovo is result of migrations in Ottoman time.

According to Kaplan Resuli Burović Albanians came to Mat region in modern Albania from Bulgaria in the late 9th or early 10th century with Bulgarian tsar Simeon as his auxiliary troops in one of his military campaigns https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaplan_Burović

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Which linguistic connection?

Albanian language has more similarity with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian and Mrglenitic) than with Dalmatian Romance (language of romanized Illyrians).

What? When Slavs invaded Balkans, Albanian already had existed and was separated into Gheg and Tosk. The connection to modern Romanian is because Proto-Albanian and Proto-Romanian speakers lived so close together, they borrowed words from each other.

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Point is that by modeling with Illyrians, even those in Apulia is rejected for Albanians (and other Balkanites)
Thracians and Imperial Romans provide much better models with tighter fits.

Then which Balkan population gets the best fits with only Illyrians?

[revolution]

History, for the Serbs, started in the early 7th century, when they settled in the Balkans. Their power base was outside Kosovo, which they fully conquered in the early 13th, so the claim that Kosovo was the "cradle" of the Serbs is untrue.

What is true is that they ruled Kosovo for about 250 years, until the final Ottoman takeover in the mid-15th century. Churches and monasteries remain from that period, but there is no more continuity between the medieval Serbian state and today's Serbia than there is between the Byzantine Empire and Greece.

Kosovo remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.

But legally, Kosovo was not incorporated into the Serbian kingdom in 1912; it remained occupied territory until some time after 1918. Then, finally, it was incorporated, not into a Serbian state, but into a Yugoslav one. And with one big interruption (the second world war) it remained part of some sort of Yugoslav state until June 2006.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia

Serbs fought on the Ottoman side in the Battle of Kosovo 1448 against Albanians and Hungarians:



Scanderbeg intended to go "peronalmente" with an army to assist Hunyadi, but was prevented from doing so by Branković, whose lands he ravaged as punishment for the Serbian desertion of the Christian cause.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo_(1448)

[Jana]

Then which Balkan population gets the best fits with only Illyrians?

Slovenes and northern Croats, but that is because they have German like admix which makes their pre Slavic artifically Illyrian like I am quite certain.

[Jana]

Proto Albanians most likely originated from non-romanized or partly romanized Thracian tribe Bessi from present day Bulgaria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Albanian presence in modern Albanian is result of Albanian migration in 9th/10th century from Bulgaria. Their presence in Kosovo is result of migrations in Ottoman time.

According to Kaplan Resuli Burović Albanians came to Mat region in modern Albania from Bulgaria in the late 9th or early 10th century with Bulgarian tsar Simeon as his auxiliary troops in one of his military campaigns https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaplan_Burović

That sounds like a fringe theory promoted by Serbian nationalists. Makes no sense. Kosovo exactly is likely origin place of proto Albanians. Bulgaria makes no sense whatsoever. You would claim they are from anywhere just to deny their nativity in western Balkans.

[Jana]

Is Albanian likely to be a Thracian language after all?

Possible. Thracians were more likely to be satem speakers than Illyrians who were probably centum

[revolution]

Also there is no evidence that Thracians replaced Illyrians or any other thing. While there might of been migrations, Western Balkans was Illyrian inhabited well into Roman period. And Illyrians essentially became an important part of the Roman empire and a lot of soldiers and generals in the Roman Empire were of Illyrian stock.

Proto-Thracians would of spread out into the Western Balkans already in the pre-historic times during the Iron Age / Bronze Age from the Steppes and into the Western Balkans where they essentially
were assimilated or fused into a Proto-Illyrian population. Which is how EV-13 could of already spread.

EV-13 is also a large branch and it's doubtful all of it came from Thracians but some of it most likely expanded with Illyrians at one point.

[Jana]

Also there is no evidence that Thracians replaced Illyrians or any other thing. While there might of been migrations, Western Balkans was Illyrian inhabited well into Roman period. And Illyrians essentially became an important part of the Roman empire and a lot of soldiers and generals in the Roman Empire were of Illyrian stock.

Proto-Thracians would of spread out into the Western Balkans already in the pre-historic times during the Iron Age / Bronze Age from the Steppes and into the Western Balkans where they essentially
were assimilated or fused into a Proto-Illyrian population. Which is how EV-13 could of already spread.

EV-13 is also a large branch and it's doubtful all of it came from Thracians but some of it most likely expanded with Illyrians at one point.

Genetics of Illyrians is pretty clear, make of it what you will. And it does not point towards significant Illyrian contribution in western Balkan DNA.

[Glauk]

More and more albanologs are pushing for the dardanian theory, wich fits perfectly with the modern Albanians, a lot of mountains, probably a illyrian tribe that got assimilated by the thracians or vice versa, close enough to major latin cities/forts to be in contact with them, away from sea and major rivers( losing water/sea faring therminology), nish and shtip toponyms wich show direct albanian sound shift and not latin influence like shkoder, durres, dardanians were last of illyrians to fall to rome and they were the most numerous of them all

[revolution]

The difference between Balkan Slavs and Albanians is that Albanians, Romanians and Aromanians are direct descendants of pre-Slavic Balkan inhabitants while Balkan Slavs are people that settled here
later after some Avar incursions and some plaques.

They built some empires and the Bulgarians ruled large part of these lands as did once the Serbs. While some people were assimilated, there were many that weren't as shown by historical research.
And Serbian and Bulgarian expansion was an invasion.

But the Balkan Slavs now claim to be the direct descendants of all the pre-Slavic inhabitants. The Slavs in Macedonia claim to be Ancient Macedonians despite all their villages were mentioned as Bulgarian.

The Serbs claim they have lived in Kosovo and Serbia since 600 AD and ''assimilated'' all the natives despite they did not expand into these territories until the 12th century. And they made a law
that forbid Serbs to marry Vlachs.


The Croats such as 'Stearsolina' claim now that Croats are some one and only true heirs of Illyrian pirates despite Croats have a lack of Illyrian Y-DNA and strong Slavic input.


Messapian language which was from Illyrian sea people has a relationship with Albanian and Albanian branches of J2b2 have been found in Coastal Croatia.

[revolution]

More and more albanologs are pushing for the dardanian theory, wich fits perfectly with the modern Albanians, a lot of mountains, probably a illyrian tribe that got assimilated by the thracians or vice versa, close enough to major latin cities/forts to be in contact with them, away from sea and major rivers( losing water/sea faring therminology), nish and shtip toponyms wich show direct albanian sound shift and not latin influence like shkoder, durres, dardanians were last of illyrians to fall to rome and they were the most numerous of them all

Albanian language shows both, Eastern Latin influence and Dalmatian Latin influence actually.

Shkodra follows ALbanian changes from Latin to Albanian as do other toponyms such as Drisht, Shar, Nish, Shtip, Shkup etc.

[Jana]

The difference between Balkan Slavs and Albanians is that Albanians, Romanians and Aromanians are direct descendants of pre-Slavic Balkan inhabitants while Balkan Slavs are people that settled here
later after some Avar incursions and some plaques.

They built some empires and the Bulgarians ruled large part of these lands as did once the Serbs. While some people were assimilated, there were many that weren't as shown by historical research.
And Serbian and Bulgarian expansion was an invasion.

But the Balkan Slavs now claim to be the direct descendants of all the pre-Slavic inhabitants. The Slavs in Macedonia claim to be Ancient Macedonians despite all their villages were mentioned as Bulgarian.

The Serbs claim they have lived in Kosovo and Serbia since 600 AD and ''assimilated'' all the natives despite they did not expand into these territories until the 12th century. And they made a law
that forbid Serbs to marry Vlachs.


The Croats such as 'Stearsolina' claim now that Croats are some one and only true heirs of Illyrian pirates despite Croats have a lack of Illyrian Y-DNA and strong Slavic input.


Messapian language which was from Illyrian sea people has a relationship with Albanian and Albanian branches of J2b2 have been found in Coastal Croatia.

Nonsense

Croats don't have much Illyrian dna. But Albanians don't either, I am sorry. At least not autosomally. As for pirate traditions, Slavs obviously learned that for pre Slavic population. Illyrian DNA did not really survive in Balkans except for paternal hgs in northern Albania/Kosovo

Feel free to prove differently with modeling.

[Glauk]

Albanian language shows both, Eastern Latin influence and Dalmatian Latin influence actually.

Shkodra follows ALbanian changes from Latin to Albanian as do other toponyms such as Drisht, Shar, Nish, Shtip, Shkup etc.

Shkodra was proven that no, i don’t know

But shkup nish shtip drisht shar yes they folow direct Albanian changes and slavs picked them from proto-albanians or the ancestors of proto-albanians

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The Daunian samples are the closest thing we currently have to Albania, at least geographically speaking. They are 6 Iron Age samples from northern Apulia, problem is that all but one (ORD009) have very low coverage.

ORD014, SGR002, ORD006 are on a cline that goes to Italy.

SAL003 and ORD011 go toward Sicily and are a likely remnant of the Late Bronze Age.

Interestingly, ORD009 is on a cline going from Greece to Croatia, and I believe Albania of that period had a similar profile to this one, which is likely to have been a "true" Daunian.

https://i.imgur.com/fDxYQrP.png

[Dušan]

The Serbs claim they have lived in Kosovo and Serbia since 600 AD and ''assimilated'' all the natives despite they did not expand into these territories until the 12th century. And they made a law
that forbid Serbs to marry Vlachs.

.

We have material proof of our noble existence in our land for centuries.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Srednjovekovni_spomenici_n%D0%B0_kosovu.jpg



Unlike wild Albanian tribes who don't have anything.

[revolution]

I know :D, that's why I am saying "probably" even though it's a single example, no source etc. I am just trying to make them think of the big picture, how it makes no sense for some many logical leaps just to prove a faulty theory.

Yes. it's also not so much where Albanian language originated in Illyrian lands but more like where it survived. Noel Malcolm claims Albanian survived as a result of isolation and contraction after Roman-Illyrian wars. So that whatever people did not become Latinized or Hellenized became Albanians. Probably many Proto-Albanians in Kosovo, Albania and many other areas
that became Latinized and Hellenized.

There is evidence to show that the 'Vlachs' historically mentioned in the Western Balkans were Eastern Latin speakers and that these were Romanians/Aromanians. Historians regard these
as Romanized Illyrians

For example Eric Hamp claims 'Romanian' and Aromanian are a branch of Proto-Albanian that basically shifted over to the Latin language.

Also, wherever Albanian survived, it obviously assimilated other people. Such as if it survived somewhere in the Dardania region then they obviously assimilated other people in modern Albania
that's how the whole name 'Albanoi' was also inherited which comes from Arbanon, Arbereshe etc.


But what is even more interesting is the 'Albanoi' inscriptions that were found in Northern Macedonia, Skopje, which was a Dardanian capital.

[Roy]

Nonsense

Croats don't have much Illyrian dna. But Albanians don't either, I am sorry. At least not autosomally. As for pirate traditions, Slavs obviously learned that for pre Slavic population. Illyrian DNA did not really survive in Balkans except for paternal hgs in northern Albania/Kosovo

Feel free to prove differently with modeling.

So according to you no one has a lot of Illyrian DNA in them? Did they all die out without leaving descendants or what? Not even among Romanians?

[rothaer]

Slovenes and northern Croats, but that is because they have German like admix which makes their pre Slavic artifically Illyrian like I am quite certain.

I'm not sure, but wasn't also Noricum well modelled with IA Croatian (Illyrian)? Give or take Noricum's Lavanttal in Carinthia, couldn't the Slovene and North Croat fitting modelling with Illyrians also be based on real Illyrian, that so far in the north was not replaced by Thracians?

[rothaer]

Proto Albanians most likely originated from non-romanized or partly romanized Thracian tribe Bessi from present day Bulgaria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Albanian presence in modern Albanian is result of Albanian migration in 9th/10th century from Bulgaria. Their presence in Kosovo is result of migrations in Ottoman time.

According to Kaplan Resuli Burović Albanians came to Mat region in modern Albania from Bulgaria in the late 9th or early 10th century with Bulgarian tsar Simeon as his auxiliary troops in one of his military campaigns https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaplan_Burović

As for Albanian being of Thracian origin makes sence regarding the genetic findings.

But in regard to Bessi, how do you explain these linguistical problems, especially the low level Greek and the high level Christian Latin language borrowings (The Bessi lived clearly on the Greek side of the Jirecek line.)?:

"Furthermore, the Christian vocabulary of Albanian is mainly Latin, which speaks against the construct of a "Bessian church language".[16] The elite of the Bessi tribe was gradually Hellenized.[17][18] Low level of borrowings from Greek in the Albanian language is a further argument against the identification of Albanian with the Bessi.[19] Also the dialectal division of the Albanian-speaking area in the Early Middle Ages contradicts the alleged migration of Albanians in the hinterland of Dyrrhachium in the first decades of the 9th century AD, especially because the dialectal division of a linguistic space is in general a result of a number of linguistic phenomena occurring during a considerable span of time and requires a very large number of natural speakers."

[Jana]

I'm not sure, but wasn't also Noricum well modelled with IA Croatian (Illyrian)? Give or take Noricum's Lavanttal in Carinthia, couldn't the Slovene and North Croat fitting modelling with Illyrians also be based on real Illyrian, that so far in the north was not replaced by Thracians?

but now we have Austrian IA to model him with, it's very similar to Croatian IA anyhow! :p
maybe illyrians survived better in the north, but....I somehow doubt. There is very little J2b around and more E-V13 in Panonnia/Noricum too

[revolution]

Vlachs that lived historically in the Western Balkans and Central Balkans were Romanians/Aromanians. They had Romanian/Aromanian names and spoke Eastern Latin.

They lived in 'Katuns' alongside Albanians which means 'Village' in the Albanian and Vlach language



Katun (Albanian: Katund; Romanian: Cătun; Serbian: Катун) is the name for the form of medieval self-governing community (family, settlement) in the Balkans. It is very similar to a Turkish: cemaât, Arabic: جماعة, romanized: jamaat, lit. 'congregation'. This form of association of people is a consequence of the absence of strong central government, and is observed in documents from the second half of the 14th and 15th centuries. It is often associated with a living style of "Vlachs" (that is, Eastern Romance people) in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia,


Romanian toponyms 'Surdul' in Southern Serbia next to Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdul which means 'The Deaf' in the Romanian language.

Toponyms with 'Katun' in Western Balkans:


Katun (Vranje), a village in Vranje Municipality, Serbia
Katun (Aleksinac), a village in Aleksinac Municipality, Serbia
Gornji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
Donji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
Katun, Pljevlja, a village in Pljevlja Municipality, Montenegro
Katun, Poreč [hr], a village in Poreč Municipality, Croatia
Katun Božički, a summer hamlet in the Komovi Mountains, Andrijevica, Montenegro
Katun nahiya [sh], a small province (nahiya) during the Ottoman rule in Montenegro


Serbian medieval scriptures mention villages of Vlach and Albanian katuns in Kosovo:



The monastery at Dečani stands on a terrace commanding passes into High Albania. When Stefan Uros III founded it in 1330, he gave it many villages in the plain and catuns of Vlachs and Albanians between the Lim and the Beli Drim. Vlachs and Albanians had to carry salt for the monastery and provide it with serf labour."


Under Serbian medieval law there was a law against marriage with Vlachs and Vlachs were almost equal to slaves. Vlachs were considered 'sebri':



The sebri (Serbian Cyrillic: себри) was the lower-half social class, commoners, of the medieval Serbian state.



So how can all the native Balkan people here been assimilated into Serbs or Slavs ?


Serbian homeland was Rashka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%A1ka_(region)


Expansion of Serbs into Serbia and Kosovo did not begin until 12th century! In 900 AD they invaded Northern Albania.



'Vlach' was only used synonyms for shepherd later, these Vlachs were Eastern Latin speakers with Romanian/Aromanian names and a distinct identity.

[Jana]

The Daunian samples are the closest thing we currently have to Albania, at least geographically speaking. They are 6 Iron Age samples from northern Apulia, problem is that all but one (ORD009) have very low coverage.

ORD014, SGR002, ORD006 are on a cline that goes to Italy.

SAL003 and ORD011 go toward Sicily and are a likely remnant of the Late Bronze Age.

Interestingly, ORD009 is on a cline going from Greece to Croatia, and I believe Albania of that period had a similar profile to this one, which is likely to have been a "true" Daunian.

https://i.imgur.com/fDxYQrP.png

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0135% / 0.01345721

38.2 BGR_IA
31.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
30.8 Ukrainian_Rivne

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0190% / 0.01897876

47.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
26.9 Ukrainian_Rivne
25.3 Daunian_IA

[Jana]

Daunian_IA:ORD009_517BC_Quality=70.05%,0.121791,0. 156392,0.028284,-0.017765,0.034776,-0.003904,0.00799,-0.014076,0.011862,0.028976,0.000812,0.005845,-0.011893,-0.004542,-0.005293,0.006364,0.024512,-0.003801,-0.000126,-0.003877,0.002995,0.007048,0.002588,0.00482,-0.005029

I used only ORD009 as Ajeje suggested for Daunian IA.

And when offered both this samples and IA Bulgarian, algorithm choses the Thracian and we get this:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0135% / 0.01345721

38.2 BGR_IA
31.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
30.8 Ukrainian_Rivne

only when I remove Thracian we get this (and the fit is worse, but still not bad)

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0190% / 0.01897876

47.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
26.9 Ukrainian_Rivne
25.3 Daunian_IA

[Varda]

Vlachs that lived historically in the Western Balkans and Central Balkans were Romanians/Aromanians. They had Romanian/Aromanian names and spoke Eastern Latin.

They lived in 'Katuns' alongside Albanians which means 'Village' in the Albanian and Vlach language



Romanian toponyms 'Surdul' in Southern Serbia next to Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdul which means 'The Deaf' in the Romanian language.

Toponyms with 'Katun' in Western Balkans:


Katun (Vranje), a village in Vranje Municipality, Serbia
Katun (Aleksinac), a village in Aleksinac Municipality, Serbia
Gornji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
Donji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
Katun, Pljevlja, a village in Pljevlja Municipality, Montenegro
Katun, Poreč [hr], a village in Poreč Municipality, Croatia
Katun Božički, a summer hamlet in the Komovi Mountains, Andrijevica, Montenegro
Katun nahiya [sh], a small province (nahiya) during the Ottoman rule in Montenegro


Serbian medieval scriptures mention villages of Vlach and Albanian katuns in Kosovo:



Under Serbian medieval law there was a law against marriage with Vlachs and Vlachs were almost equal to slaves. Vlachs were considered 'sebri':




So how can all the native Balkan people here been assimilated into Serbs or Slavs ?


Serbian homeland was Rashka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%A1ka_(region)


Expansion of Serbs into Serbia and Kosovo did not begin until 12th century! In 900 AD they invaded Northern Albania.



'Vlach' was only used synonyms for shepherd later, these Vlachs were Eastern Latin speakers with Romanian/Aromanian names and a distinct identity.

Native Vlachs of western and central Balkans were not Aromanians.

Native western Balkan Latin speakers were speakers of Dalmatian language who belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages, different branch from East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian, Meglenitic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language


https://youtu.be/_ZJRPKxaJ1s

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

We have material proof of our noble existence in our land for centuries.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Srednjovekovni_spomenici_n%D0%B0_kosovu.jpg



Unlike wild Albanian tribes who don't have anything.

You're funny, especially considering those wild tribes stole your beloved heartland icon_smile

[revolution]

Serbs claim Ancient Balkan people welcomed them with open arms yet all the historical records show Serbian expansion and Bulgarian expansion was an invasion.



By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages.





Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century



Serbian expansion into Kosovo and Serbia did not begin until 12th century or so. Yet Serbs claim they have been living in these lands since 600 AD and ''assimilated'' all the natives.


They use the demographics of Kosovo, which most likely never happened naturally, to claim it is now their land.

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

We have material proof of our noble existence in our land for centuries.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Srednjovekovni_spomenici_n%D0%B0_kosovu.jpg



Unlike wild Albanian tribes who don't have anything.

You're funny, especially considering those wild tribes stole your beloved heartland icon_smile

[Dušan]

You're funny, especially considering those wild tribes stole your beloved heartland icon_smile

Without help of America, the wild tribes would run away.
But American assistance will stop, sooner or later.

[revolution]

the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [48] (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [49] There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms.




The main area of the Balkan interior where a Latin-speaking population may have continued, in both towns and country, after the Slav invasion, has already been mentioned: it included the upper Morava valley, northern Macedonia, and the whole of Kosovo. It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly, but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed




What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs




Had they come from the towns, their Latin would surely have been closer to standard Latin in its structure, too.) There is in fact enough Latin agricultural vocabulary in Romanian -words for sowing, ploughing, harrowing, and so on - to show that they were farming in Roman times. [69] The shift towards pastoralism was probably quite gradual. One particular factor that may have helped to promote it was the practice of horse-breeding, which was, or at least became, a Vlach speciality: the medieval records are full of Vlach muleteers and Vlachs leading caravans of pack-horses. [70] Such an occupation requires contact with towns (where the trade is), and may be combined with some farming in the towns' vicinity; but it also involves a form of stock-breeding, which could have given the early Vlachs an entree into the higher-altitude world of Albanian flocks and herds.


''This claim is put forward as a prime argument against the 'Illyrian' origins of the Albanians by Schramm: Eroberer, pp. 33-4; Anfange, p. 23. It had already been answered by Cabej, who pointed out that the shift to 'h' belonged to a much earlier (pre-Roman) period of Albanian: 'Problem of Autochthony', p. 44. Schramm's case can be disproved by a series of Albanian borrowings from Latin, such as shkorse (rug) from scortea, shkendije (spark) from scantilla, shkemb (rock-formation) from scamnum, and shkop (staff) from scopae: see Capidan, 'Raporturile'. pp. 546-8; Philippide, Originea Rominilor, vol. 2, pp. 653-4; Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik', p. 177; and the entries in Meyer, Etymologisches Worterbuch.''


''Stipcevic, Iliri, p. 30 and n.; Mirdita, Studime dardane, pp. 7-46; Papazoglu, Central Balkan Tribes, pp. 210-69. As Papazoglu notes, most ancient sources classify Dardanians as Illyrians. Her reasons for rejecting this identification in a later essay, 'Les Royaumes', are obscure. There were Thracian names in the eastern strip of Dardania, but Illyrian names dominated the rest; Katicic has shown that these belong with two other Illyrian 'onomastic provinces' (see his summary in Ancient Languages, pp. 179-81, and the evidence in Papazoglu, 'Dardanska onomastika').''


Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs (http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html)





Where are Serbs ?

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

Without help of America, the wild tribes would run away.
But American assistance will stop, sooner or later.

Every tribe has their allies. The clock is ticking and the longer you wait, the harder it will be for you. Good luck in your endeavors.

[ANXIETY (ADEPT)]

If we didnt mix with Vlachs then we would cluster in autosomal genetics with Poles, Ukrainians and Russians.
But it is not the case, we have clearly Mediterranean component, along with proto-Slavic.

Vlachs mentioned in Dušan's code were social term meaning shepherds, who had wider privileges and easier life, than farmers who were attached to the feud.
He didnt want to farmers to escape from feudal possessions.

There were many more Balkan people to mix with than just Vlachs smh

[Glauk]

Without help of America, the wild tribes would run away.
But American assistance will stop, sooner or later.



Without russia your wouldn’t see your liberty from the turks, without french and italian ships in the ww1 your army would be massacred by germans and austrians, everyone has allies and friends we just are very opportunistic and very good at choosing allies and sides in history on the other hand you have always a bad luck and get fucked by your own bad luck and choosing

[vbnetkhio]

There were many more Balkan people to mix with than just Vlachs smh

which? how numerous were they, which language did they speak?

[Dušan]

There were many more Balkan people to mix with than just Vlachs smh

In medieval Serbia, including Kosovo-Metohija of course, pre-Slavic population were only Vlachs, that we incorporate into society and nation.

There were no Albanians, who settled in Serbian soil with Ottomans.


The Slavs, settling the Balkans in the 6th and 7th centuries, absorbed the Romanized populations over the centuries.

With time, ties between the Slavs and Romans of the Balkans became more tighter, the larger numbered Slavs absorbing the largest part of the Roman population in the Western Balkans.
The Vlach shepherds completely mixed with the Serbs, a result of the predominant pastoralist society and Christianity.

The medieval Vlachs in the Balkans had hybrid names, evidenting intermarriage with the Slavs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Serbia

This is clearly seen in our autosomal genetics.

[Dušan]

Vlachs Aromanians had very prosperous center Moscopole, in today's southern Albania.

This city was destroyed by Albanians.
Moscopole Vlachs took refuge in Thessaly and Macedonia.




Moscopole (Albanian: Voskopojë; Aromanian: Moscopole, Moscopoli, Muscopuli or Voscopole; Greek: Μοσχόπολη or Βοσκόπολη; Turkish: İskopol or Oskopol[1]) is a village in Korçë County in southeastern Albania. During the 18th century, it was the cultural and commercial center of the Aromanians.[2] At its peak, in the mid 18th century, it hosted the first printing press in the Ottoman Balkans outside Istanbul, educational institutions and numerous churches[3] and became a leading center of Greek culture.[4][5]

Historians have attributed the decline of the city to a series of raids by Muslim Albanian bandits.[6][7] Moscopole was initially attacked and almost destroyed by those groups in 1769 following the participation of the residents in the preparations for a Greek revolt supported by the Russian Empire.

The 1769 sacking and pillaging by Muslim Albanian[21] troops was just the first of a series of attacks to the city. Moscopole was attacked due to the participation of the residents in the preparations for a Greek revolt supported by the Russian Empire known as the Orlov Revolt.[8] Its destruction culminated with the razing of 1788 by the troops of Ali Pasha of Ioannina.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

[Dušan]

Every tribe has their allies. The clock is ticking and the longer you wait, the harder it will be for you. Good luck in your endeavors.

We will see who's clock is ticking...

Who would ever thought that Americans will withdraw from Afghanistan...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYHMWVzQlig

[Wizz]

Of course there was medieval Serbian Orthodox church, since this area was integral part of Serbian state, and Prizren was the capital of Serbia during emperor Dušan's rule.

Your paternal line is proto-Slavic origin, most likely of some albanized and islamized Serbs during Ottoman ocupation.

It's funny because the map you posted of Principality of Arbanon shows Kosovo was not Serbian back then or had not been fully conquered but under Bulgarian rule

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Map_of_Arbanon_%28Arbëria%29.png/375px-Map_of_Arbanon_%28Arbëria%29.png


Serb expansion there did not fully begin until the 13th century after the Byzantine and Bulgarian Empire was weakened. This was right after the Principality of Arbanon or so.

Despotate of Epirus also contained an Albanian population despite it was ruled by Greeks and was not part of Arbanon. The dialect split occurred roughly around 400-600 AD. Epirus later became ruled by Albanians. As was Western Macedonia.


Serb expansion into Serbia and Kosovo did not begin until the 13th century.

As for churches, those churches were mainly built during that period and were restored during the Ottoman period, there were churches from other people too that were destroyed and cultures, there are Roman heritage there and archaeological sites that go back to the iron age, bronze age and neolithic that have nothing to do with Serbs.


It's funny how you refer to some medieval empire that collapsed in the 15th century (and became an Ottoman vassal betraying European anti-Ottoman alliance too) as ''integral part'' of your country. When you received Ottoman independence Nish and Kosovo were not even part of your country. You merely occupied Kosovo after an Albanian revolt in 1912.

[Wizz]

Prizren in Kosovo was mentioned by Bulgarians already in 11th century , the name most likely comes from the Prizren fortress which dates back to at least the Roman period. It was also held by some Albanian principalities, Kastrioti and Dukagjini. Arbanon operated also right around there or close at it's maximum extent.

Prizren Fortress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prizren_Fortress)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Prizren_Fortress_%282021%29.jpg/450px-Prizren_Fortress_%282021%29.jpg





Prizren has been traditionally identified with Theranda, a town of the Roman era.[3] Another location which may have been that of Theranda is present-day Suhareka Archaeological research has shown that the site of the fortress has passed several eras of habitation since prehistoric times. In its lower part, material from the upper part of the fort has been deposited over the centuries. It dates from the Bronze Age (c. 2000 BCE) to the late Iron Age (c. 1st century CE) and is comparable to the material found in the nearby prehistoric site in the village of Vlashnjë. In late antiquity, the fortification saw a phase of reconstruction. It is part of a series of forts that were built or reconstructed in the same period by Justinian along the White Drin in northern Albania and western Kosovo in the routes that linked the coastal areas with the Kosovo valley.[4] At this time, the Prizren fortress likely appears in historical record as Petrizen in the 6th century CE in the work of Procopius as one of the fortifications which Justinian commissioned to be reconstructed in Dardania.[5]

Present-day Prizren is first mentioned in 1019 at the time of Basil II (r. 976–1025) in the form of Prisdriana

[Frotous]

Serbian pre-Slavic Y dna is different than Albanian.

J2b-M205 is about 4% in Serbs on average, and almost 0% in Albanians. Originated mostly from serbified Vlach clan Kriči https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

E-A18844 exist in Serbs and not in Albanians https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/
This branch is from Mataruge clan, who were Albanians only in the fantasy of Albanian trolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge

Kuči, Vasojevići and Bjelovići clans from Montenegro are E-V13 (their E-V13 is significant part of total Serbian E-V13), but their versions of E-V13 are several thousand years distant from Albanian ones.

Piperi are R1b-FT49714 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT49714/) and they don't have matches among Albanians. They have further matches among Bulgarians and East Serbian Vlachs.
Albanian mythomans same as for Mataruge, Kuči, Bjelopavlići, Buzmati etc. claim Albanian origin of Piperi :picard1:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperi_(tribe)

etc.

Proud R1b-FT49714. My autosomal dna isn’t even close to Albanians

[Dardanos]

...

[Dardanos]

Proud R1b-FT49714. My autosomal dna isn’t even close to Albanians
Ooo mirdita, return to your roots

[Baca]

Proud R1b-FT49714. My autosomal dna isn’t even close to Albanians

Look here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?294658-Ku%E7i-Dhe-Vasoje%E7i/page2

Everything that guy wrote is bullshit, Piperi are https://www.yfull.com/arch-6.01/tree/R-Y33200/ , most of those tribes were Albanian indeed and were Albanian speakers, some were Romanians/Aromanians, Vlach was just another word for a Romanian/Aromanian. And lived alongside Albanian speakers like Hoti, Kelmendi etc. part of Kuci used to be Albanian speakers even late. Vasojevic and many of those others used to be Albanian speakers too.

I have seen where you plot. You literally plot just north of the Gheg cluster. Serbs did not expand into modern Serbia etc until very late medieval period. Stop trying to change the historical facts and stop manipulating history. Be honest with yourself. For example, I accept we might not come from Illyrians on the adriatic coast but came more inland of the Balkans with Romanian. And that is even better. I don't even like the coast. whatever theory I accept. It doesn't matter. From there some lineages got picked up when the proto-Albanians moved into Albania but this would of happened before Slavs probably. Everything else that guy claimed is bullshit. Most Montenigrin and South Serb pre-Slavic Balkan is from Albos, Romanians, Aromanians etc. Som of it even got absorbed like literally late during the Ottoman period. Same thing for Macedonians. Hahahaaahaha. On yfull you can see plenty of matches with Albos and Romanians. You people are coping so hard.
Writing books how you lived in Kosovo and Serbia since 600 AD when Slavs arrived and all kinds of bullshit nationalist fairytales. It's all about reprogramming yourself. Once you learn to accept the facts and reprogram yourself it's not that bad.


Though I have seen some claim my lineage came from the Illyrians on the adriatic coast in Albania, but only more ancient DNA will tell. There are shit loads of Albos that are J2b2 and might of come from different Illyrian tribes. J-Z631 most likely came from the Dardani/Moesi.

[Frotous]

What do you mean you’ve seen where I plot? I’ve never even posted results anywhere what LOL. My autosomal dna isn’t close to Albanians at all but whatever, most of Serbs Paleo Balkanic admixture and y dna is not from Albos

[Frotous]

I’m not even close to Albanians autosmally haha

[Frotous]

Saar Kosovo is ours even though we did nothing for Kosovo besides migrate there during Middle Ages and ottoman times and burn churches