Huge genetic changes in Albanians since Paleo-Balkan times.

[Jana]

Let me explain to you, the calc is saying 9 is not closer to 8 but to 5+3+1. Never mind that 9 has lived in the same place as 8 and 5, 3 and 1 far away. I wish we could do this with IBD sharing so you can see the mistake. This works by a system of ponderation that works in absolute instead of proportional values so it penalizes the real ones.

Any comment on lack of E-V13 in ancient Albania but big presence in Iron Age Bulgarians?

[Varda]

Your intended simplification is not catching the more complicated function.

It has to be admitted that a calculation is just the mathematical best modeling and it is the more reliable to reflect reality the more different the componets are. Nevertheless this is the modeling that again and again is provided by the calculator.

I don't see why you so much consider this result wrong. This is actually something that would be your part in the debate. Without heavy contra indications we have no reason to assume the calculation wrong.

I agree to that IBD sharing would be preferred.

Illyrian samples from Dalmatia and Lika are pretty more northern and western than Albos. They are like Spaniards.
OK, southern Illyrians from modern Albania were more southern shifted and you say similar as Albanians in northern direction. But without Slavic input Albanins would be more southern even than southern Illyrians.
How Albanians are close to ancient sample(s) from Bulgaria?

[Jana]

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.9229% / 0.01922947
63.0 BGR_IA_I5769
20.6 (Balto-)Slavic
12.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
3.6 Steppe_Nomad

Do they have some real Turkic after all? I don't know.

I'm surprised by this but who knows. Steppe_Nomad average is pretty mong but it's not only Turkic. It's a mixed component made of Huns, Avars, Magyars and Sarmatians.

Distance to: Steppe_Nomad

0.02217087 Tatar_Siberian
0.04584246 Bashkir
0.05165731 Nogai
0.06690293 Karakalpak
0.07134764 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.07699356 Uygur
0.07842577 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.07917230 Uzbek
0.07974709 Tubalar
0.08033726 Hazara
0.08682964 Yukagir_Forest
0.09565357 Kazakh
0.09693702 Shor_Mountain
0.09960068 Shor
0.10095119 Shor_Khakassia
0.10711317 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.11630563 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.11722845 Khakass
0.12023035 Mansi
0.12434009 Turkmen
0.12724432 Tlingit
0.12843314 Khanty
0.13192262 Tatar_Lipka
0.13452166 Kirghiz
0.13547919 Kirghiz_China

[Rizza]

Even some of those Illyrian samples that clustered like South-West Euros are like 60%-80% Albanian which I checked out years ago. And these are Albanian MyTrueAncestry results I found on Anthrogenica

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/993198980202770528/1015767820933533747/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1013598180602040441/1015719561519185920/unknown.png

[rothaer]

but regardless of bad Turkic sample, low Illyrian again. I think that's indicative of something.

Yes. A calculator can be wrong, but not assuming it correct will require well founded grounds.

[Hulu]

Any comment on lack of E-V13 in ancient Albania but big presence in Iron Age Bulgarians?

I'm not sure that's the whole truth given my ydna. What do you think about that?

[Hulu]

Any comment on lack of E-V13 in ancient Albania but big presence in Iron Age Bulgarians?

I'm not sure that's the whole truth given my ydna. What do you think about that?

[Jana]

I'm not sure that's the whole truth given my ydna. What do you think about that?

Your clade has NW Euro matches? Might be Balkan Roman soldiers sent across Europe

[Hulu]

Your clade has NW Euro matches? Might be Balkan Roman soldiers sent across Europe

No, it has Illyria matches for the past 7k years.

[rothaer]

(...) But without Slavic input Albanins would be more southern even than southern Illyrians.
(...)

Exactly.

All views on distances of modern Albanians after all this mixing are not telling as for the ancestry.

[Hulu]

@Feichii





My ydna clade.

https://i.imgur.com/A7WSZei.png

[Jana]

No, it has Illyria matches for the past 7k years.

Post the paper or at least the link which found such Illyrian samples and I think this site you're using is BS you.

[Jana]

@Feichii

It's unclear what it is, modern distribution or what.

[Hulu]

Your intended simplification is not catching the more complicated function.

It has to be admitted that a calculation is just the mathematical best modeling and it is the more reliable to reflect reality the more different the componets are. Nevertheless this is the modeling that again and again is provided by the calculator.

I don't see why you so much consider this result wrong. This is actually something that would be your part in the debate. Without heavy contra indications we have no reason to assume the calculation wrong.

I agree to that IBD sharing would be preferred.


Yeah, I think you may have some late Roman/Greek input. Because of Levant/IRN Ganj_Dareh_N. Thracians don't have that either.

Low east med no Anatolian for a supposedly Thracian input

[Hulu]

It's unclear what it is, modern distribution or what.

The dates in orange and the location in red line. This is the actual matches from yfull. I have done the yfull too.

[Jana]

The dates in orange and the location in red line. This is the actual matches from yfull. I have done the yfull too.

yeah fine, but you should than find these samples in some paper if the site is legit.
IA West Balkans had no E-V13 to my knowledge except one or two samples in Croatia that don't have clades present in modern Balkanites.

[Varda]

Illyrian sample from Dalmatia.

K13

Components
1 North_Atlantic 36.73
2 West_Med 23.57
3 East_Med 15.67
4 Baltic 13.11
5 West_Asian 8.04
6 Red_Sea 2.87

The closest modern populations
1 North_Italian 6.07
2 Portuguese 6.25
3 Spanish_Extremadura 6.73
4 Spanish_Cataluna 6.9
5 Spanish_Galicia 7.37
6 Spanish_Murcia 7.51
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7.79
8 Spanish_Valencia 7.9
9 Spanish_Andalucia 8.18
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 8.76
11 French 9.14
12 Spanish_Cantabria 10.07
13 Spanish_Aragon 11.5
14 Southwest_French 11.53
15 Tuscan 11.71
16 West_German 14.36
17 South_Dutch 14.77
18 Romanian 16.27
19 Serbian 16.71
20 Bulgarian 17.78


Position on the K15 map.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/if8vdit-png.1169921/

[rothaer]

No, it has Illyria matches for the past 7k years.

Afaik nobody questions that Albanians have also Illyrian ancestors. All this debate is (just) about proportions. But in this question a singular Y DNA information is not enlightening.

Statistics can be, but we have experienced a lot of genetic drifts (for whatever reason) regarding Y DNA when it comes to proportions. A lot of Y DNA (in westernmost Europe R1b f. i.) is out of proportion compared to autosomal DNA.

[rothaer]

Low east med no Anatolian for a supposedly Thracian input

But the following modeling is taking into account all that characteristics and comes to these numbers:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.7216% / 0.01721585
59.6 BGR_IA_I5769
21.2 (Balto-)Slavic
11.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
7.4 Turkic

[Hulu]

yeah fine, but you should than find these samples in some paper if the site is legit.
IA West Balkans had no E-V13 to my knowledge except one or two samples in Croatia that don't have clades present in modern Balkanites.

It's the yfull. It is legit. Papers can be limited in their studies as my example shows. I am surprised ypu dont know about yfull.

[Hulu]

But the following modeling is taking into account all that characteristics and comes to these numbers:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.7216% / 0.01721585
59.6 BGR_IA_I5769
21.2 (Balto-)Slavic
11.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
7.4 Turkic

Stop referring the model...You ask about my input and go the model again. Explain that without the model

[Hulu]

Afaik nobody questions that Albanians have also Illyrian ancestors. All this debate is (just) about proportions. But in this question a singular Y DNA information is not enlightening.

Statistics can be, but we have experienced a lot of genetic drifts (for whatever reason) regarding Y DNA when it comes to proportions. A lot of Y DNA (in westernmost Europe R1b f. i.) is out of proportion compared to autosomal DNA.

Dont take things out of context. The sweeping generalization was that ev13 comes from Thracia. They havent shown one example from Illyria and I disproved that right of the bat.

[Varda]

Illyrian sample from Dalmatia.

K13

Components
1 North_Atlantic 36.73
2 West_Med 23.57
3 East_Med 15.67
4 Baltic 13.11
5 West_Asian 8.04
6 Red_Sea 2.87

The closest modern populations
1 North_Italian 6.07
2 Portuguese 6.25
3 Spanish_Extremadura 6.73
4 Spanish_Cataluna 6.9
5 Spanish_Galicia 7.37
6 Spanish_Murcia 7.51
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7.79
8 Spanish_Valencia 7.9
9 Spanish_Andalucia 8.18
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 8.76
11 French 9.14
12 Spanish_Cantabria 10.07
13 Spanish_Aragon 11.5
14 Southwest_French 11.53
15 Tuscan 11.71
16 West_German 14.36
17 South_Dutch 14.77
18 Romanian 16.27
19 Serbian 16.71
20 Bulgarian 17.78


Position on the K15 map.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/if8vdit-png.1169921/

Another similar Illyrian sample from Croatia also quite different from Albos, and Thracian sample from Bulgaria which is much closer to Albos.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/bvqlw0v-5-png.1170114/

[Jana]

It's the yfull. It is legit. Papers can be limited in their studies as my example shows. I am surprised ypu dont know about yfull.

Post yfull links with these ancient samples than. Thanks.

[rothaer]

Stop referring the model...You ask about my input and go the model again. Explain that without the model

Explain without the model? I can not. The model is the calculatory best fit using the components provided.

If you exceptionally do reject that calculation it's up to you to with founded grounds motivate that.

Objecting "low east med no Anatolian for supposed Thracian input" is no founded ground as the characteristics of the components are taken into account in the calculation.

So what I say is just that your mentioned objections are (completely) invalid. But maybe you have others.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In my opinion the paleo-Balkan heritage in the genetics of the Albanians is probably a mix of Illyrian, Thracian and something I haven't seen anyone mention in this thread yet, Dacian. Some of the paternal lineages of E-V13 in the region may have been introduced by Dacians and\or Romanized Dacians as well, which could explain why Albanian loan words from Latin show links not with the Romance languages of Western Europe nor the Dalmatian dialect once spoken along the Adriatic coast, but rather with the speech of the East Roman descendants of Latin.

Also, no European ethnicity is immutable since antiquity, so this should not be seen in any way as an ultimate case that defines one's identity or not if it were not for the problem that in the Balkans all these kinds of issues are politically exploited and manipulated for nationalist propaganda. I wish there were reliable Lusitanian samples to compare with the modern-day Portuguese, regardless of having 100% or only 10% affinity with those samples they would never cease to be seen as a continuity of our legacy since they inhabited our territory in the Antiquity and are an intrinsic part of our collective identity as Portuguese, in the same way the Albanians probably view the Illyrians.

[Rizza]

It's the yfull. It is legit. Papers can be limited in their studies as my example shows. I am surprised ypu dont know about yfull.

That guy claims we are 6.2% Illyrian. Lets put this guys theory into practice. He adds other samples like Roman, Greek etc. All populations that have similarity with Illyrians, Thracians etc.

Even I don't get modelled as 100% Albanian despite Albanian is first just look when I run modern populations and compare them to me:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.6355% / 0.00635489
31.0 Montenegrin
20.8 Greek_Messenia
13.6 Sardinian
8.0 Macedonian
5.8 French_Seine-Maritime
5.0 Albanian
4.8 Italian_Lazio
3.2 Georgian_Ajar
2.8 Georgian_NorthEast
2.4 Swiss_French
1.6 Basque_Soule
1.0 Georgian_Javakheti


Distance to: Rizza
0.01841633 Albanian
0.01902928 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02078061 Greek_Thessaly
0.02085061 Italian_Piedmont
0.02122682 Swiss_Italian
0.02141297 Greek_Macedonia
0.02162191 Italian_Veneto
0.02389471 Rumelia_East
0.02488209 Italian_Northeast
0.02507809 Italian_Tuscany
0.02600311 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.02645825 Greek_Messenia
0.02657164 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02678687 Gagauz
0.02679371 Italian_Bergamo
0.02709394 Greek_Achaea
0.02735833 Bulgarian
0.02820482 Greek_Arcadia
0.02837038 Greek_Argolis
0.02883489 Greek_Elis
0.02906470 Italian_Liguria
0.02920881 Greek_Corinthia
0.02976399 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03033824 Italian_Lombardy
0.03045931 Macedonian


By this dude's logic I guess I am only 5.0% Albanian :lol: The distances are right in that I get Albanian, Greek and Italian first, just like the distances to Illyrian samples are right in that I get them first. Unless I add some populations who cluster exactly maybe like Albanians.



Here is when I changed the settings a bit by reducing it to 3 populations max to give me:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.8191% / 0.00819132 | R3P
53.2 Greek_Central_Macedonia
44.4 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
2.4 Georgian_West



Models me as mostly Greek and Italian. Of course I can change the settings more. I can make myself 100% Albanian by using the right samples etc or removing unwanted populations.



Check out what some of these Illyrians get on K36 posted by Lukas

Distance: 7.8143% / 7.81432465
Target: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16251 | ADC: 0.5x
32.0 Albanian_Kosovo
20.6 GR_Thesalloniki
13.5 FR_Centre_Val_De_Loire
10.4 Albanian_south
9.8 GR_Andros
4.8 ES_Extremadura
4.1 IT_Ladinia
3.4 ES_Islas_Baleares
1.4 GEO_Svaneti



And of course they don't all get that, many score Italian like I do.


These calculators should be taken very serious :lol: :rolleyes:

[Hulu]

Explain without the model? I can not. The model is the calculatory best fit using the components provided.

If you exceptionally do reject that calculation it's up to you to with founded grounds motivate that.

Objecting "low east med no Anatolian for supposed Thracian input" is no founded ground as the characteristics of the components are taken into account in the calculation.

So what I say is just that your mentioned objections are (completely) invalid. But maybe you have others.

Lol So you ask for my input why the model is wrong. I give it, then you can't explain that without the model :lol: no point discussing further with you

[Varda]

yeah fine, but you should than find these samples in some paper if the site is legit.
IA West Balkans had no E-V13 to my knowledge except one or two samples in Croatia that don't have clades present in modern Balkanites.

There is no E-V13 among dozens of samples from western Balkans from the ancient period before Roman conquests (Illyrian period).

Only 2 ancient E-V13 are discovered in the western Balkan and both are from Roman period - both are clades which doesn't exist among modern Balksnites.

R3745; 23-121 AD; Zadar_Hypo_banka Croatia: E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y30976>Y99739>BY66293 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y99739/)

R3659; 249-378 AD; Scitarjevo, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>BY4642>Z38223* (xBY4710,BY4715,Z37883) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4642/)

[Hulu]

Post yfull links with these ancient samples than. Thanks.

It's this website below. They are basing their matches on yfull results. I dont have that kind of time to verify each of them on yfull ;

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?283075-Subclade-locator-map-generator

[Rizza]

That guy claims we are 6.2% Illyrian. Lets put this guys theory into practice. He adds other samples like Roman, Greek etc. All populations that have similarity with Illyrians, Thracians etc.

Even I don't get modelled as 100% Albanian despite Albanian is first just look when I run modern populations and compare them to me:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.6355% / 0.00635489
31.0 Montenegrin
20.8 Greek_Messenia
13.6 Sardinian
8.0 Macedonian
5.8 French_Seine-Maritime
5.0 Albanian
4.8 Italian_Lazio
3.2 Georgian_Ajar
2.8 Georgian_NorthEast
2.4 Swiss_French
1.6 Basque_Soule
1.0 Georgian_Javakheti


Distance to: Rizza
0.01841633 Albanian
0.01902928 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02078061 Greek_Thessaly
0.02085061 Italian_Piedmont
0.02122682 Swiss_Italian
0.02141297 Greek_Macedonia
0.02162191 Italian_Veneto
0.02389471 Rumelia_East
0.02488209 Italian_Northeast
0.02507809 Italian_Tuscany
0.02600311 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.02645825 Greek_Messenia
0.02657164 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02678687 Gagauz
0.02679371 Italian_Bergamo
0.02709394 Greek_Achaea
0.02735833 Bulgarian
0.02820482 Greek_Arcadia
0.02837038 Greek_Argolis
0.02883489 Greek_Elis
0.02906470 Italian_Liguria
0.02920881 Greek_Corinthia
0.02976399 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03033824 Italian_Lombardy
0.03045931 Macedonian


By this dude's logic I guess I am only 5.0% Albanian :lol: The distances are right in that I get Albanian, Greek and Italian first, just like the distances to Illyrian samples are right in that I get them first. Unless I add some populations who cluster exactly maybe like Albanians.



Here is when I changed the settings a bit by reducing it to 3 populations max to give me:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.8191% / 0.00819132 | R3P
53.2 Greek_Central_Macedonia
44.4 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
2.4 Georgian_West



Models me as mostly Greek and Italian. Of course I can change the settings more. I can make myself 100% Albanian by using the right samples etc or removing unwanted populations.



Check out what some of these Illyrians get on K36 posted by Lukas

Distance: 7.8143% / 7.81432465
Target: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16251 | ADC: 0.5x
32.0 Albanian_Kosovo
20.6 GR_Thesalloniki
13.5 FR_Centre_Val_De_Loire
10.4 Albanian_south
9.8 GR_Andros
4.8 ES_Extremadura
4.1 IT_Ladinia
3.4 ES_Islas_Baleares
1.4 GEO_Svaneti



And of course they don't all get that, many score Italian like I do.


These calculators should be taken very serious :lol: :rolleyes:



If we add rothaers logic here, I guess I am only 5.0% Albanian despite the distance is closest to Albanian and all my top matches on FTDNA and MyHeritage are Albanian which is like over 10 pages of matches :lol:



I am more Montenigrin than Albanian :lol:



According to the OP I am 31% Montenigrin :lol:

[rothaer]

Lol So you ask for my input why the model is wrong. I give it, then you can't explain that without the model :lol:

No, you gave no input that meant that the model was wrong. Your input is fully compatibel with the result. That's no serious objection.


no point discussing further with you

If you can not give any serious objections this is true.

[Jana]

There is no E-V13 among dozens of samples from western Balkans from the ancient period before Roman conquests (Illyrian period).

Only 2 ancient E-V13 are discovered in the western Balkan and both are from Roman period - both are clades which doesn't exist among modern Balksnites.

R3745; 23-121 AD; Zadar_Hypo_banka Croatia: E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y30976>Y99739>BY66293 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y99739/)

R3659; 249-378 AD; Scitarjevo, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>BY4642>Z38223* (xBY4710,BY4715,Z37883) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4642/)

Thanks.

[Hulu]

No, you gave no input that meant that the model was wrong. Your input is fully compatibel with the result. That's no serious objection.



If you can not give any serious objections this is true.

You're so thick. If I had thracian I would have anatolian. Kapish?

[Jana]

However this Zadar sample with E-V13 looks local Illyrian genetically, not like Roman or even Thracian transplant:

Distance to: Croatia_Zadar_Hypo_banka:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_ 58.46%

0.03311527 Italian_Bergamo
0.03334920 Italian_Lombardy
0.03562911 Italian_Liguria
0.03777774 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03792410 Italian_Veneto
0.03986013 Italian_Piedmont
0.04138782 Spanish_Menorca
0.04310176 French_Corsica
0.04386069 Italian_Northeast
0.04478559 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04566487 Swiss_Italian
0.04595042 Italian_Tuscany
0.04610523 Spanish_Baleares
0.04618509 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04641262 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04652304 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04706349 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04744110 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04787960 Greek_Thessaly
0.04792106 French_Provence
0.04859617 Spanish_Lleida
0.04888001 Spanish_Valencia
0.04905172 Albanian
0.04913331 Spanish_Murcia
0.04919020 Spanish_Girona

[Hulu]

Thanks.

Feichi they are not making up clades on that website. You may have an incorrect model but I'm sure you're smarter than think there are just those 2 samples on yfull. Varda has an agenda. Show me you dont have one.

[Hulu]

However this Zadar sample with E-V13 looks local Illyrian genetically, not like Roman or even Thracian transplant:

Distance to: Croatia_Zadar_Hypo_banka:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_ 58.46%

0.03311527 Italian_Bergamo
0.03334920 Italian_Lombardy
0.03562911 Italian_Liguria
0.03777774 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03792410 Italian_Veneto
0.03986013 Italian_Piedmont
0.04138782 Spanish_Menorca
0.04310176 French_Corsica
0.04386069 Italian_Northeast
0.04478559 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04566487 Swiss_Italian
0.04595042 Italian_Tuscany
0.04610523 Spanish_Baleares
0.04618509 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04641262 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04652304 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04706349 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04744110 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04787960 Greek_Thessaly
0.04792106 French_Provence
0.04859617 Spanish_Lleida
0.04888001 Spanish_Valencia
0.04905172 Albanian
0.04913331 Spanish_Murcia
0.04919020 Spanish_Girona

Thank you :)

[Rizza]

Exactly.

All views on distances of modern Albanians after all this mixing are not telling as for the ancestry.

Nope. Medieval samples, Byzantine samples etc aren't much different from Albanians just like some of these Illyrians. Where is this Slavic input that shifted us north ?

Seems to be a baseless claim.

Here are my Austosomal results from MyOrigins II, I score no East Europe unlike South Slavs.

https://i.snipboard.io/4Z6B2y.jpg

https://i.snipboard.io/etl40C.jpg

[Jana]

He adds other samples like Roman, Greek etc. All populations that have similarity with Illyrians, Thracians etc.

No, they don't. Imperial Romans are on average nothing like Illyrians genetically. Balkans was heavily Romanized and Albanian language has Latin influence, so it's normal Roman average will be used.


I can make myself 100% Albanian by using the right samples etc or removing unwanted populations.

That's because you are an idiot who manipulates data. You should use populations that have been historically present on Balkans. Not populations you wish to score. Lmao.


Check out what some of these Illyrians get on K36 posted by Lukas

Distance: 7.8143% / 7.81432465
Target: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16251 | ADC: 0.5x
32.0 Albanian_Kosovo
20.6 GR_Thesalloniki
13.5 FR_Centre_Val_De_Loire
10.4 Albanian_south
9.8 GR_Andros
4.8 ES_Extremadura
4.1 IT_Ladinia
3.4 ES_Islas_Baleares
1.4 GEO_Svaneti

Less than 50% modern Albanian, thanks for nice assist.

[Jana]

Feichi they are not making up clades on that website. You may have an incorrect model but I'm sure you're smarter than think there are just those 2 samples on yfull. Varda has an agenda. Show me you dont have one.

Varda does have agenda. I don't. :)

[Rizza]

I also showed the components aren't much different from Albanian.


However this Zadar sample with E-V13 looks local Illyrian genetically, not like Roman or even Thracian transplant:

Distance to: Croatia_Zadar_Hypo_banka:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_ 58.46%

0.03311527 Italian_Bergamo
0.03334920 Italian_Lombardy
0.03562911 Italian_Liguria
0.03777774 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03792410 Italian_Veneto
0.03986013 Italian_Piedmont
0.04138782 Spanish_Menorca
0.04310176 French_Corsica
0.04386069 Italian_Northeast
0.04478559 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04566487 Swiss_Italian
0.04595042 Italian_Tuscany
0.04610523 Spanish_Baleares
0.04618509 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04641262 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04652304 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04706349 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04744110 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04787960 Greek_Thessaly
0.04792106 French_Provence
0.04859617 Spanish_Lleida
0.04888001 Spanish_Valencia
0.04905172 Albanian
0.04913331 Spanish_Murcia
0.04919020 Spanish_Girona

Indeed. And add Albanian regions it will get Albanian closer perhaps. Since those other ethnicites are broken into different regions too.

[Jana]

Davidski has bad modern averages.

[Rizza]

So you're saying Slavic input shifted Albanian north, so how do you explain Greece. I guess Slavic input shifted Greece North too despite we have samples from Macedonia that prove other wise . Those Myceaneans and Thracians aren't the sole pre-Slavic ancestor of Balkan people. If pre-Slavic ancestry of Albanians and many Balkanites was that south it would make people like 40%-50% Slavic. I guess Balkan Slavs are like 80% Slavic. What about Macedonians . How do you explain their pre-Slavic ancestry or many South Slavs for that matter . Basically just baseless claims. What happened to all these genetic profiles of samples found in Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro etc. They just disappeared and Slavic ancestry shifted Albanians North :lol: But somehow it does not match the pre-Slavic ancestry of Slavs who also mixed with Albanians , why do you think I get Montenigrin, Albanian sperm donation :lol:

So all these genetic profiles disappeared, somehow pre-Slavic ancestor of Albanian was more south.

Nice theories you pulled out of your ass. :lol:

[rothaer]

That guy claims we are 6.2% Illyrian. Lets put this guys theory into practice. He adds other samples like Roman, Greek etc. All populations that have similarity with Illyrians, Thracians etc.

Even I don't get modelled as 100% Albanian despite Albanian is first just look when I run modern populations and compare them to me:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.6355% / 0.00635489
31.0 Montenegrin
20.8 Greek_Messenia
13.6 Sardinian
8.0 Macedonian
5.8 French_Seine-Maritime
5.0 Albanian
4.8 Italian_Lazio
3.2 Georgian_Ajar
2.8 Georgian_NorthEast
2.4 Swiss_French
1.6 Basque_Soule
1.0 Georgian_Javakheti


Distance to: Rizza
0.01841633 Albanian
0.01902928 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02078061 Greek_Thessaly
0.02085061 Italian_Piedmont
0.02122682 Swiss_Italian
0.02141297 Greek_Macedonia
0.02162191 Italian_Veneto
0.02389471 Rumelia_East
0.02488209 Italian_Northeast
0.02507809 Italian_Tuscany
0.02600311 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.02645825 Greek_Messenia
0.02657164 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02678687 Gagauz
0.02679371 Italian_Bergamo
0.02709394 Greek_Achaea
0.02735833 Bulgarian
0.02820482 Greek_Arcadia
0.02837038 Greek_Argolis
0.02883489 Greek_Elis
0.02906470 Italian_Liguria
0.02920881 Greek_Corinthia
0.02976399 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03033824 Italian_Lombardy
0.03045931 Macedonian


By this dude's logic I guess I am only 5.0% Albanian :lol: The distances are right in that I get Albanian, Greek and Italian first, just like the distances to Illyrian samples are right in that I get them first. Unless I add some populations who cluster exactly maybe like Albanians.



Here is when I changed the settings a bit by reducing it to 3 populations max to give me:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.8191% / 0.00819132 | R3P
53.2 Greek_Central_Macedonia
44.4 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
2.4 Georgian_West



Models me as mostly Greek and Italian. Of course I can change the settings more. I can make myself 100% Albanian by using the right samples etc or removing unwanted populations.



Check out what some of these Illyrians get on K36 posted by Lukas

Distance: 7.8143% / 7.81432465
Target: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16251 | ADC: 0.5x
32.0 Albanian_Kosovo
20.6 GR_Thesalloniki
13.5 FR_Centre_Val_De_Loire
10.4 Albanian_south
9.8 GR_Andros
4.8 ES_Extremadura
4.1 IT_Ladinia
3.4 ES_Islas_Baleares
1.4 GEO_Svaneti



And of course they don't all get that, many score Italian like I do.


These calculators should be taken very serious :lol: :rolleyes:

You equal und thus confuse a well considered calculator with a calculator that provides simply all existent people for modelling. It's definitely not my opinion that what you run does seriously suggest reality. There you are gloriously defeating a phantom that only exists in your imagination.

A well considered calculator is designed for stabilty, i. e. not being bouncy in results, but giving people with resembling genetics also resembling results. There are a lot of considerations and tests to do. All this is done regarding the calculator I used.

I also stated that a modeling is no proof for that the model reflects reality but if it's stable and gives essentially the same results time after time in various constellations then this is a serious suggestion that can be assumed roughly correct.

Of course you can then make various objections and say this can not be correct, because... etc.

But the result of a well considered calculator is more than an arbitrary suggestion. It has to be well founded why the result is to be rejected.

In all these upset protests against the result there lacks such grounds. At least till now.

The actings with the distances to modern Albanians are irrelevant as objections because they do not contradict the result, in contrast, they are fully in line with that mathematical assessment.

So I wonder on what basis this conviction comes that the results are wrong. Shouting "I'm 100% Illyrian" is nothing that convinces a thoughtful individual.

[Jana]

So you're saying Slavic input shifted Albanian north, so how do you explain Greece. I guess Slavic input shifted Greece North too despite we have samples from Macedonia that prove other wise

North Macedonian samples look Illyrian and not Greek, unless you mean outliers.


Those Myceaneans and Thracians aren't the sole pre-Slavic ancestor of Balkan people. If pre-Slavic ancestry of Albanians and many Balkanites was that south it would make people like 40%-50% Slavic. I guess Balkan Slavs are like 80% Slavic.

I am around 60% Slavic but my pre-Slavic isn't only Illyrian. It all got mixed up.

[Rizza]

Here are some samples in North Macedonia, which is south of the Balkans:


Distance to: MKD_BA:I7231
0.02453354 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02461167 Albanian_Dibra
0.02627658 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02705227 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02792935 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02836361 Greek_Argolis
0.02857725 Albanian_Labëria
0.02860356 Albanian_Pukë
0.02861449 Albanian_Korçë
0.02912992 Greek_Thessaly
0.02915145 Greek_Corinthia
0.02928445 Albanian_Himarë
0.02955332 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02956342 Italian_Tuscany
0.02998214 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03084134 Greek_Messenia
0.03092533 Greek_Achaea
0.03107164 Italian_Umbria
0.03123886 Greek_Arcadia
0.03151459 Italian_Piedmont
0.03168302 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03221895 Italian_Marche
0.03267648 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03268571 French_Corsica
0.03271945 Greek_Elis




Distance to: MKD_Anc:I8112
0.03277776 Italian_Veneto
0.03282560 Swiss_Italian
0.03324272 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03394397 Italian_Piedmont
0.03484006 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03503558 Italian_Bergamo
0.03530439 French_Corsica
0.03569552 Italian_Tuscany
0.03617876 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03669545 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03702527 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03789392 Albanian_Dibra
0.03810681 Albanian_Pukë
0.03819015 Albanian_Himarë
0.03825944 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03859389 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03883212 Albanian_Labëria
0.03898548 Italian_Northeast
0.03908357 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03979651 Spanish_Baleares
0.04063244 Italian_Lombardy
0.04079775 Italian_Umbria
0.04082090 Albanian_Korçë
0.04088267 French_Provence
0.04184025 Spanish_Mallorca







So you're saying this genetic profile just magically disappeared ? Somehow the pre-Slavic ancestor of Albanian was even more South ?


Completely baseless claim. :bored:



People get pulled south based on how much Neolithic they absorb , also there was already variations in plotting even back then with Albanian-like profiles so it can be a bottle neck effect .

[Rizza]

Here are two outliers that seems to even cluster with Cretans and Near East.

Distance to: MKD_Anc_o2:I10167
0.04198910 Greek_Crete
0.04229070 Sicilian_East
0.04231167 Italian_Apulia
0.04256741 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04332223 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.04400602 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.04415414 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04416434 Italian_Calabria
0.04435733 Italian_Campania
0.04457123 Italian_Basilicata
0.04457981 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.04505138 Greek_Izmir
0.04652747 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.04681972 Italian_Molise
0.04696889 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04719947 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.04725074 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04732656 Greek_Laconia
0.04786286 Greek_Kos
0.04826755 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.04876532 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04901613 Italian_Marche
0.04941920 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.04962243 Greek_Elis
0.04986645 Greek_Messenia



Not sure about the Ukrainian zhytomyr . It's marked as an outlier.

Distance to: MKD_Anc_o1:I10392
0.02280440 Lebanese_Christian
0.02410602 Lebanese_Druze
0.02479193 Druze
0.02864740 Iraqi_Jew
0.03098847 Lebanese_Muslim
0.03149045 Karaite_Egypt
0.03160560 Kurdish_Jew
0.03514519 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.03708650 Samaritan
0.03861983 Cypriot
0.03864746 Armenian_Urfa
0.03939778 Iranian_Jew
0.03960174 Syrian_Jew
0.04334727 Armenian_Aintab
0.04384275 Georgian_Jew
0.04433461 Syrian
0.04448705 Mountain_Jew
0.04449496 Greek_Cappadocia
0.04552662 Assyrian
0.04870939 Armenian_Erzurum
0.04899642 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04972169 Armenian_Gesaria
0.04973492 Armenian_Gurin
0.05042276 Romaniote_Jew
0.05123438 Mountain_Jew_o


That all those other profiles had disappeared and Slavs pulled Albanians more North is nothing but a baseless claim, even then cannot be more than 5%-10% Slavic.

[Rizza]

This is a medieval sample from Macedonia, clearly a Slavic input

Distance to: MKD_Mdv:I2530
0.02649123 Moldovan
0.02950083 Serbian
0.03085576 Romanian
0.03195199 Montenegrin
0.03443137 Bulgarian
0.03584209 Bosnian
0.03609124 Macedonian
0.03677063 Croatian
0.03776997 Gagauz
0.03817394 Slovenian
0.04001955 Hungarian
0.04159292 Austrian
0.04182041 Italian_Northeast
0.04568623 French_Alsace
0.04744877 German_Erlangen
0.04853749 Swiss_German
0.04883996 Turkish_Deliorman
0.04886725 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.04945107 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05081562 French_Nord
0.05110731 French_Provence
0.05140062 Italian_Liguria
0.05199775 Italian_Veneto
0.05236700 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05279278 German


It's the only medieval sample.

Compare it to Ancient samples found there here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366492-Ancient-Macedonia-DNA

Definitely not much Slavic input that shifted us more north, whatever Slavic ancestry essentially became dilluted, some of these ancient samples already had northern profiles, some more south. Our pre-Slavic ancestors should be more or less as these Ancient Samples found in Albania, North Macedonia and Montenegro in various forms.


Let's compare it to some medieval Albania sample,


Distance to: ALB_Mdv:I13834
0.02848017 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02996863 Greek_Thessaly
0.03103880 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03118507 Italian_Piedmont
0.03119799 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03159605 Italian_Tuscany
0.03231760 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03244699 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03259155 Albanian_Labëria
0.03281387 Albanian_Pukë
0.03304475 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03325677 Albanian
0.03329758 Albanian_Himarë
0.03349265 Albanian_Dibra
0.03363536 Albanian_Korçë
0.03476878 Italian_Lombardy
0.03499224 Italian_Umbria
0.03546773 Italian_Marche
0.03569227 Swiss_Italian
0.03579009 Greek_Macedonia
0.03590673 Greek_Argolis
0.03607575 Greek_Messenia
0.03660033 Italian_Bergamo
0.03703478 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03743543 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: ALB_Mdv:I14622
0.03061483 Greek_Argolis
0.03071466 Greek_Laconia
0.03095288 Greek_Corinthia
0.03118718 Greek_Elis
0.03198615 Greek_Messenia
0.03234149 Greek_Achaea
0.03253668 Greek_Thessaly
0.03270101 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.03285301 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03293609 Albanian_Dibra
0.03332341 Greek_Arcadia
0.03394883 Greek_Izmir
0.03444205 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.03446732 Albanian_Himarë
0.03464034 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.03475057 Albanian_Labëria
0.03503558 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.03511235 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03516569 Italian_Molise
0.03548251 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03578799 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03632769 Greek_Macedonia
0.03647263 Albanian
0.03656088 Albanian_Korçë
0.03672170 Italian_Abruzzo


PostMedieval Albania


Distance to: ALB_PostMdv:I15707
0.03036268 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03186799 Albanian_Dibra
0.03819512 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03837903 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03901402 Greek_Corinthia
0.03926202 Albanian
0.03963656 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.04018483 Albanian_Korçë
0.04028693 Albanian_Labëria
0.04068220 Albanian_Montenegro
0.04070852 Albanian_Himarë
0.04090787 Italian_Tuscany
0.04095177 Albanian_Pukë
0.04120575 Greek_Argolis
0.04127006 Albanian_Kosovo
0.04134456 Italian_Umbria
0.04177545 Greek_Achaea
0.04193460 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04221806 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04292585 Greek_Elis
0.04296512 French_Corsica
0.04316839 Greek_Messenia
0.04359700 Greek_Thessaly
0.04375237 Greek_Arcadia
0.04379085 Italian_Piedmont



Distance to: ALB_PostMdv:I15706
0.01750668 Greek_Macedonia
0.01861140 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02000794 Albanian_Kosovo
0.02012548 Albanian_Korçë
0.02051763 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.02096474 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02140190 Albanian_Labëria
0.02154765 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02165334 Albanian_Pukë
0.02219391 Albanian
0.02237819 Greek_Thessaly
0.02242295 Albanian_Himarë
0.02304884 Rumelia_East
0.02309659 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02378985 Greek_Arcadia
0.02420415 Greek_Achaea
0.02442072 Greek_Messenia
0.02446792 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02488939 Greek_Elis
0.02494168 Gagauz
0.02602143 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02611118 Greek_Argolis
0.02620426 Albanian_Dibra
0.02680956 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.02804315 Greek_Corinthia



Distance to: ALB_PostMdv:I14686
0.02628514 Greek_Corinthia
0.02725152 Albanian_Dibra
0.02776636 Greek_Argolis
0.02826151 Greek_Elis
0.02847421 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02913247 Greek_Achaea
0.02955474 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02960294 Albanian
0.02969772 Greek_Messenia
0.02986344 Greek_Arcadia
0.03012063 Greek_Laconia
0.03114220 Greek_Izmir
0.03165344 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.03185357 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.03193895 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03254201 Greek_Thessaly
0.03273758 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03302825 Albanian_Labëria
0.03347832 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.03411831 Albanian_Himarë
0.03413862 Albanian_Pukë
0.03431820 Albanian_Korçë
0.03463938 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.03476141 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03503729 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania



Depends also where in the country they were found.





There doesn't seem to be that much Slavic input.

[Rizza]

I'm also not saying that these samples cluster like Albanians, many of them are like Italian regions which are regions people still get today, although once you add Albanian regions they appear close, I'm more arguing the change isn't as huge as you claim. Samples in Kosovo should be more or less the same as samples found in North Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro. If we only use the G25 average Albanian some of these samples in Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia still get Albanian like distance 3-5 or so . They get Italian, Greek etc that people get today too .

Cetina Bronze Age clustered 100% like that G25 average Albanian. One Iron Age in Croatia is like a Belgian, French or something which gives Croats closer distance otherwise Croats are not close to these samples, not even a distance of 6 I believe. And samples in Serbia are quite diverse.

If anything compared to especially samples in Croatia, Albanians have become a bit more South-East , possibly more Neolithic as Illyrians moved south and Ancient Greek ancestry too since Albania, North Macedonia etc was colonized by Greeks , and such Southern profiles already existed . It's not like those Thracians are any closer.

Closest samples I have seen to Albanian average, if we only go by that G25 average are in North Macedonia, Montenegro and Albania if we exclude that Cetina Bronze Age and some of these samples are extremely close to me. Bergamo, Veneto, Swiss Italian, Greek thessaly , Corinthia , Marche, Umbria, etc that these samples get are things that people even get today . Some of those samples found in North Macedonia are almost like some Medieval samples found in Albania.

Also Autosomal DNA can change a bit since Bronze Age / Iron Age . It is expected. Samples from other periods are different. I don't see how this proves your theories that Proto-Albanians were some kind of Thracians. Funny how how you are obsessed and talk about Thracian transplants like you are some kind of puro Illyroid whose land was settled by Thracians . I suggest to mingle in your own business instead of worrying about other ethnicities.


These are all Bronze Age / Iron Age samples found in Bulgaria, only G25 Albanian average used:


Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20184
0.05905140 Italian_Apulia
0.06057887 Italian_Lazio
0.06073302 Sicilian_East
0.06112969 Italian_Campania
0.06188526 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.06198762 French_Corsica
0.06209960 Italian_Basilicata
0.06244571 Italian_Abruzzo
0.06298419 Italian_Calabria
0.06304319 Italian_Molise
0.06371832 Italian_Marche
0.06414002 Italian_Umbria
0.06552383 Sicilian_West
0.06700065 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06732875 Italian_Tuscany
0.06746805 Greek_Laconia
0.06752498 Maltese
0.06768311 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.06895259 Greek_Argolis
0.06898062 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06907147 Greek_Corinthia
0.06915988 Greek_Izmir
0.06947692 Sardinian
0.07006228 Greek_Messenia
0.07024481 Greek_Arcadia


Distance to: BGR_Diamandievo_IA:I19481
0.05696144 Sicilian_East
0.05796729 Italian_Apulia
0.05903784 Italian_Lazio
0.05982883 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06028369 Sicilian_West
0.06056206 Italian_Marche
0.06066174 French_Corsica
0.06066191 Italian_Molise
0.06074647 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.06086357 Italian_Abruzzo
0.06099657 Greek_Laconia
0.06174131 Italian_Campania
0.06198387 Italian_Basilicata
0.06223828 Greek_Argolis
0.06262573 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06290551 Italian_Umbria
0.06321309 Greek_Thessaly
0.06352534 Greek_Messenia
0.06359520 Italian_Calabria
0.06371681 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.06384959 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06385800 Greek_Arcadia
0.06415461 Greek_Corinthia
0.06483803 Greek_Achaea
0.06499743 Italian_Tuscany


Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20180
0.05765723 Italian_Apulia
0.05806300 Italian_Lazio
0.05977575 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.05996925 Sicilian_East
0.06015350 Italian_Campania
0.06096205 Italian_Abruzzo
0.06137116 French_Corsica
0.06167907 Italian_Basilicata
0.06199094 Italian_Marche
0.06250994 Italian_Molise
0.06257543 Italian_Calabria
0.06404454 Italian_Umbria
0.06418170 Sicilian_West
0.06438159 Greek_Laconia
0.06509956 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06511110 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.06552745 Greek_Argolis
0.06609640 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06653367 Greek_Izmir
0.06686143 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06692732 Greek_Corinthia
0.06701680 Greek_Arcadia
0.06717166 Italian_Tuscany
0.06746269 Maltese
0.06760403 Greek_Messenia


Distance to: BGR_IA:I5769
0.03716518 Italian_Lazio
0.03973669 Italian_Molise
0.04002928 Italian_Apulia
0.04080540 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04080752 Italian_Umbria
0.04130677 Italian_Basilicata
0.04130794 Italian_Marche
0.04274486 Italian_Campania
0.04304663 Greek_Izmir
0.04319581 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.04335443 French_Corsica
0.04356121 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04456917 Greek_Corinthia
0.04460689 Italian_Tuscany
0.04480009 Greek_Argolis
0.04516373 Greek_Laconia
0.04547998 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04649266 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.04667658 Greek_Achaea
0.04670551 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.04699819 Italian_Calabria
0.04720308 Sicilian_East
0.04734512 Greek_Elis
0.04750297 Greek_Arcadia
0.04780127 Greek_Messenia


Distance to: BGR_EBA:I2520
0.04987534 French_Corsica
0.05877772 Italian_Veneto
0.05935732 Italian_Bergamo
0.05979093 Italian_Tuscany
0.05986396 Swiss_Italian
0.06083960 Italian_Piedmont
0.06086471 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.06128436 Spanish_Menorca
0.06128708 Spanish_Murcia
0.06233943 Albanian
0.06324332 Spanish_Castello
0.06324761 Italian_Umbria
0.06328976 Spanish_Baleares
0.06376312 Spanish_Mallorca
0.06431519 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.06451016 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.06472384 Italian_Lazio
0.06483315 Italian_Lombardy
0.06487419 Spanish_Pirineu
0.06493603 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.06510723 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.06513229 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.06538237 Italian_Northeast
0.06547636 Spanish_Eivissa
0.06571552 Greek_Corinthia


Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_EMBA:I20182
0.04134324 Rumelia_East
0.04172941 Greek_Thessaly
0.04227490 Gagauz
0.04352143 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.04389094 Greek_Macedonia
0.04399367 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04581457 Greek_Messenia
0.04658759 Greek_Elis
0.04678496 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.04689705 Greek_Achaea
0.04740644 Greek_Argolis
0.04742689 Italian_Tuscany
0.04779382 Italian_Marche
0.04794421 Albanian
0.04796080 Bulgarian
0.04809933 Italian_Umbria
0.04816611 Greek_Corinthia
0.04863582 Swiss_Italian
0.04875103 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04879676 Greek_Laconia
0.04889057 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.04892616 Greek_Arcadia
0.04904282 Italian_Piedmont
0.04982753 Italian_Molise
0.05016517 Greek_Izmir




Distance to: BGR_EBA:I2510
0.05801983 Sardinian
0.09723962 French_Corsica
0.10283359 Italian_Lazio
0.10594942 Italian_Apulia
0.10611171 Italian_Campania
0.10629473 Sicilian_East
0.10707357 Italian_Umbria
0.10734609 Italian_Basilicata
0.10739581 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.10789139 Italian_Calabria
0.10791430 Italian_Abruzzo
0.10840526 Italian_Marche
0.10850502 Italian_Molise
0.10878055 Italian_Tuscany
0.11004203 Sicilian_West
0.11088045 Italian_Jew
0.11115656 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.11140242 Maltese
0.11181223 Italian_Lombardy
0.11276480 Italian_Bergamo
0.11277880 Greek_Izmir
0.11307300 Greek_Corinthia
0.11327814 Greek_Laconia
0.11340284 Greek_Argolis
0.11370842 Greek_Peloponnese



Distance to: BGR_EBA:I2175
0.04767580 Sardinian
0.04774811 French_Corsica
0.05797157 Italian_Bergamo
0.05849062 Spanish_Menorca
0.06114906 Spanish_Murcia
0.06126813 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.06235416 Spanish_Baleares
0.06236451 Italian_Lombardy
0.06284183 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.06298350 Italian_Veneto
0.06305531 Spanish_Castello
0.06316575 Italian_Tuscany
0.06361640 Spanish_Pirineu
0.06364236 Italian_Piedmont
0.06384013 Spanish_Eivissa
0.06408059 Spanish_Andalucia
0.06410195 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.06419505 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.06430285 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.06443025 Italian_Lazio
0.06443376 Spanish_Extremadura
0.06466134 Spanish_Mallorca
0.06482385 Spanish_Cantabria
0.06508359 Spanish_Valencia
0.06521228 Spanish_Alacant



Distance to: BGR_EBA:I2165
0.02619839 Italian_Northeast
0.03144552 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03184679 Italian_Veneto
0.03259284 Romanian
0.03365375 Bulgarian
0.03382108 French_Provence
0.03432368 Montenegrin
0.03460421 Serbian
0.03468551 Macedonian
0.03606642 Swiss_French
0.03626917 French_Auvergne
0.03677590 Swiss_German
0.03692075 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03696376 French_Alsace
0.03823922 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03888795 Italian_Bergamo
0.03920393 French_Occitanie
0.03962457 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04022929 Spanish_Penedes
0.04024686 Gagauz
0.04038387 French_Nord
0.04092493 Italian_Piedmont
0.04111050 Moldovan
0.04118751 Spanish_Menorca
0.04135192 Spanish_Barcelones


Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186
0.05561674 Italian_Apulia
0.05753462 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.05762934 Italian_Lazio
0.05829600 Sicilian_East
0.05837167 Italian_Campania
0.05841527 Italian_Basilicata
0.05912017 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05941810 Italian_Molise
0.05980044 French_Corsica
0.05981623 Italian_Marche
0.05987708 Italian_Calabria
0.06090667 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.06098588 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06137194 Italian_Umbria
0.06161535 Greek_Argolis
0.06198436 Greek_Laconia
0.06216179 Greek_Corinthia
0.06255395 Greek_Izmir
0.06268421 Greek_Arcadia
0.06335746 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06336390 Greek_Messenia
0.06356647 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06422597 Italian_Tuscany
0.06440978 Greek_Achaea
0.06476642 Greek_Elis


Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185
0.05631604 French_Corsica
0.05728196 Italian_Lazio
0.05882386 Italian_Apulia
0.06027303 Italian_Molise
0.06027836 Italian_Umbria
0.06051672 Italian_Abruzzo
0.06061345 Italian_Basilicata
0.06114007 Italian_Campania
0.06114519 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.06139784 Italian_Marche
0.06192701 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.06236355 Greek_Corinthia
0.06252836 Greek_Argolis
0.06271990 Greek_Izmir
0.06277434 Italian_Tuscany
0.06333427 Sicilian_East
0.06350303 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06386320 Greek_Laconia
0.06402533 Greek_Arcadia
0.06414066 Italian_Calabria
0.06430052 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06509294 Greek_Achaea
0.06522804 Greek_Messenia
0.06528858 Greek_Elis
0.06530446 Greek_East_Taygetos


Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183
0.04797340 French_Corsica
0.05106324 Italian_Lazio
0.05132098 Italian_Umbria
0.05400970 Italian_Tuscany
0.05403605 Greek_Corinthia
0.05478629 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05513689 Italian_Marche
0.05534275 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05560966 Italian_Basilicata
0.05567404 Greek_Peloponnese
0.05570946 Italian_Molise
0.05575442 Greek_Izmir
0.05586982 Italian_Apulia
0.05599449 Greek_Argolis
0.05602587 Greek_Achaea
0.05720539 Greek_Elis
0.05734642 Italian_Campania
0.05747668 Greek_Laconia
0.05841373 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.05844643 Greek_Arcadia
0.05879153 Albanian
0.05918103 Italian_Calabria
0.05918832 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.05941536 Greek_Messenia
0.05991787 Italian_Piedmont




Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20180
0.05765723 Italian_Apulia
0.05806300 Italian_Lazio
0.05977575 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.05996925 Sicilian_East
0.06015350 Italian_Campania
0.06096205 Italian_Abruzzo
0.06137116 French_Corsica
0.06167907 Italian_Basilicata
0.06199094 Italian_Marche
0.06250994 Italian_Molise
0.06257543 Italian_Calabria
0.06404454 Italian_Umbria
0.06418170 Sicilian_West
0.06438159 Greek_Laconia
0.06509956 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06511110 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.06552745 Greek_Argolis
0.06609640 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06653367 Greek_Izmir
0.06686143 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06692732 Greek_Corinthia
0.06701680 Greek_Arcadia
0.06717166 Italian_Tuscany
0.06746269 Maltese
0.06760403 Greek_Messenia


Good bye.

[Lucas]

Where are posted those new ancient K36 averages? Link please:)

[Rizza]

Where are posted those new ancient K36 averages? Link please:)

I saw you or some guy with your name posted some of these averages on Eupedia unless it was someone with your name .

[Rizza]

You posted some of the averages here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42786-The-genetic-history-of-the-Southern-Arc-Lazaridis-et-al

[Lucas]

You posted some of the averages here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42786-The-genetic-history-of-the-Southern-Arc-Lazaridis-et-al

It was me but there were no averages only results. But ok I will post them here soon.

[Rizza]

There definitely hasn't been any kind of huge genetic change , not even in Greece, there was just genetic diversity, but you can find many samples like Greek and Albanian or close, in fact the OP thinks that all these ancient Balkan samples are all identical they aren't, some are even like Slavs, Samples in Greece range from Italian, to Greek and Albanian to extremely southern shifted, comparing them to modern populations depends largely on the average and the samples from these populations you use. If you mix a Central/Northern Italian and a Greek you can almost get an Albanian I believe .

Here I added myself together with modern popualtions and compared myself with ancient samples from West Balkans, the average Albanian on G25 is a bit different than other averages I have seen or regions which are closer to these samples as I have shown .

Sample from Croatia Iron Age:


Distance to: HRV_IA:I3313
0.02400696 Italian_Lombardy
0.02684022 Italian_Bergamo
0.03098048 Italian_Piedmont
0.03132283 Italian_Veneto
0.03232243 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03503135 Italian_Liguria
0.03518854 Rizza-Albanian
0.03523518 Swiss_Italian
0.03570296 French_Corsica
0.03623112 Italian_Tuscany
0.03842617 Greek_Thessaly
0.03893473 Italian_Northeast
0.04186317 Italian_Marche
0.04203788 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04216678 Spanish_Baleares
0.04240815 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04248741 Spanish_Menorca
0.04263746 French_Provence
0.04294519 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04303196 Albanian
0.04368641 Italian_Umbria
0.04378507 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04442382 Greek_Macedonia
0.04596885 Spanish_Girona
0.04608396 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona


Distance to: HRV_EIA:I23904
0.02502255 Italian_Veneto
0.02670273 Swiss_Italian
0.02680831 Italian_Bergamo
0.02734474 Italian_Piedmont
0.02818026 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02986283 Rizza-Albanian
0.03034878 Italian_Northeast
0.03054387 Italian_Lombardy
0.03267342 Italian_Tuscany
0.03382955 Italian_Liguria
0.03404416 Albanian
0.03437561 French_Provence
0.03445712 Spanish_Baleares
0.03448954 French_Corsica
0.03477322 Greek_Thessaly
0.03565770 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03711959 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03715601 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03910690 Spanish_Girona
0.03913202 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03921985 Italian_Umbria
0.03928261 Spanish_Menorca
0.03967775 Greek_Macedonia
0.04063756 Rumelia_East
0.04107373 Spanish_Penedes



Iron Age Sample from Northern Albania:


Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256
0.04250106 Swiss_Italian
0.04380569 Italian_Veneto
0.04595426 Rizza-Albanian
0.04618701 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04710777 Italian_Tuscany
0.04723999 Italian_Piedmont
0.04746880 Italian_Northeast
0.04873892 French_Provence
0.04875999 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04920106 Italian_Bergamo
0.04957710 Swiss_French
0.05065795 Rumelia_East
0.05092262 Spanish_Baleares
0.05096698 French_Corsica
0.05104265 Albanian
0.05144038 Spanish_Mallorca
0.05153682 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.05201386 Italian_Umbria
0.05346355 Spanish_Girona
0.05415521 Spanish_Penedes
0.05467043 Greek_Thessaly
0.05554777 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.05576071 Spanish_Eivissa
0.05596945 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.05609706 Greek_Achaea



Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.02886532 Italian_Piedmont
0.02899049 Rizza-Albanian
0.02909987 Italian_Tuscany
0.02974394 Swiss_Italian
0.03237354 Italian_Bergamo
0.03361312 Italian_Umbria
0.03383140 Albanian
0.03386512 French_Corsica
0.03400007 Greek_Thessaly
0.03427858 Italian_Veneto
0.03503797 Italian_Marche
0.03591488 Italian_Lazio
0.03608747 Italian_Lombardy
0.03822531 Greek_Messenia
0.03823370 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03851080 Greek_Argolis
0.03851238 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03879957 Greek_Elis
0.03884742 Greek_Corinthia
0.03902879 Greek_Achaea
0.03909643 Italian_Molise
0.03928429 Greek_Macedonia
0.03969570 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03974908 Rumelia_East
0.03990751 Greek_Arcadia



:rolleyes:

[Jana]

I'm 23% Illyrian in Croatian-specific model I made from samples we have now. Pretty cool.

[Rizza]

Yet the OP claims I am minor Illyrian :lol: Closest Thracian sample I have seen to me was one Early Bronze Age from Bulgaria that clustered like a Northern Italian and like these Illyrians. One Late Bronze Age sample from Montenegro with modern populations and me:


Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13169
0.03012028 Italian_Piedmont
0.03075129 Italian_Bergamo
0.03160958 Italian_Veneto
0.03190018 Rizza-Albanian
0.03261827 Swiss_Italian
0.03294106 Italian_Lombardy
0.03318292 French_Corsica
0.03410027 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03415580 Italian_Tuscany
0.03849621 Italian_Northeast
0.03853152 Greek_Thessaly
0.03912135 Albanian
0.04023065 Italian_Umbria
0.04100349 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04153309 Italian_Marche
0.04183843 Italian_Liguria
0.04194618 Spanish_Baleares
0.04324365 Spanish_Menorca
0.04339335 Italian_Lazio
0.04364342 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04366565 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04384083 Greek_Achaea
0.04409627 Greek_Macedonia
0.04409844 French_Provence
0.04429044 Greek_Argolis


:thumb001:

[Jana]

Yet the OP claims I am minor Illyrian :lol: Closest Thracian sample I have seen to me was one Early Bronze Age from Bulgaria that clustered like a Northern Italian and like these Illyrians. One Late Bronze Age sample from Montenegro with modern populations and me:


Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13169
0.03012028 Italian_Piedmont
0.03075129 Italian_Bergamo
0.03160958 Italian_Veneto
0.03190018 Rizza-Albanian
0.03261827 Swiss_Italian
0.03294106 Italian_Lombardy
0.03318292 French_Corsica
0.03410027 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03415580 Italian_Tuscany
0.03849621 Italian_Northeast
0.03853152 Greek_Thessaly
0.03912135 Albanian
0.04023065 Italian_Umbria
0.04100349 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04153309 Italian_Marche
0.04183843 Italian_Liguria
0.04194618 Spanish_Baleares
0.04324365 Spanish_Menorca
0.04339335 Italian_Lazio
0.04364342 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04366565 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04384083 Greek_Achaea
0.04409627 Greek_Macedonia
0.04409844 French_Provence
0.04429044 Greek_Argolis


:thumb001:

You are dumb. I get certain Croatian IA samples closer than any Slavic in single pop sharing and not because I am Illyrian but because some of them are as close as northern as I am.

Illyrian were Iron Age people also.

[Rizza]

Here is one Thracian sample from Bulgaria from Iron Age, my name does not even appear LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL


Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20180
0.05765723 Italian_Apulia
0.05806300 Italian_Lazio
0.05977575 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.05996925 Sicilian_East
0.06015350 Italian_Campania
0.06096205 Italian_Abruzzo
0.06137116 French_Corsica
0.06167907 Italian_Basilicata
0.06199094 Italian_Marche
0.06250994 Italian_Molise
0.06257543 Italian_Calabria
0.06404454 Italian_Umbria
0.06418170 Sicilian_West
0.06438159 Greek_Laconia
0.06509956 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06511110 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.06552745 Greek_Argolis
0.06609640 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06653367 Greek_Izmir
0.06686143 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06692732 Greek_Corinthia
0.06701680 Greek_Arcadia
0.06717166 Italian_Tuscany
0.06746269 Maltese
0.06760403 Greek_Messenia

[Rizza]

From Carleton Coon:

''All of the evidence which we have indicates that close kinsmen of the Glasinac people were the very ones who settled Ghegnia, at just about the tune the cemetery was in use. We have every reason to suppose that the ancestors of the Ghegs, in the last 500 years before the Christian era, their pioneer period, were very much like the people whose remains were buried in the graveyard at Glasinac. This means that among the Ghegs, characteristic Dinarics were present from the beginning, but probably as a minority in the population.''


Glasinac was an Illyrian Iron Age culture in Western Balkans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac-Mati_culture

[Rizza]

Here's a collection of Bronze Age and Iron Age samples in Croatia where I appear among the top. Even samples in Croatia are closer to me than samples found in Bulgaria.

Distance to: HRV_BA:I18748
0.02324079 Italian_Piedmont
0.02587499 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.02634209 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02642947 Italian_Veneto
0.02679206 Italian_Lombardy
0.02699814 Swiss_Italian
0.02748499 Italian_Bergamo
0.02750956 Italian_Tuscany
0.03077657 Italian_Liguria
0.03100100 Albanian
0.03155971 Italian_Northeast
0.03164456 Greek_Thessaly
0.03182944 French_Corsica
0.03552398 Italian_Umbria
0.03614520 Italian_Marche
0.03629378 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03700712 French_Provence
0.03781431 Spanish_Baleares
0.03798619 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03800470 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03828434 Greek_Macedonia
0.03840298 Spanish_Menorca
0.03892222 Greek_Messenia
0.03952989 Greek_Argolis
0.03969729 Rumelia_East




Distance to: HRV_IA:I3313
0.02400696 Italian_Lombardy
0.02684022 Italian_Bergamo
0.03098048 Italian_Piedmont
0.03132283 Italian_Veneto
0.03232243 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03503135 Italian_Liguria
0.03518854 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.03523518 Swiss_Italian
0.03570296 French_Corsica
0.03623112 Italian_Tuscany
0.03842617 Greek_Thessaly
0.03893473 Italian_Northeast
0.04186317 Italian_Marche
0.04203788 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04216678 Spanish_Baleares
0.04240815 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04248741 Spanish_Menorca
0.04263746 French_Provence
0.04294519 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04303196 Albanian
0.04368641 Italian_Umbria
0.04378507 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04442382 Greek_Macedonia
0.04596885 Spanish_Girona
0.04608396 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona


Distance to: HRV_EIA:I23995
0.02057799 Italian_Veneto
0.02180827 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02479018 Italian_Bergamo
0.02520178 Italian_Northeast
0.02716413 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02728252 Italian_Piedmont
0.02797014 French_Provence
0.02861277 Swiss_Italian
0.02864584 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.02956037 Italian_Lombardy
0.02978783 Spanish_Menorca
0.03035981 Italian_Liguria
0.03070586 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03076821 Spanish_Baleares
0.03150938 Spanish_Penedes
0.03234080 Spanish_Girona
0.03291547 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03321852 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03340207 French_Corsica
0.03347704 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03369814 Swiss_French
0.03374760 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03408023 Italian_Tuscany
0.03444688 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03498314 Spanish_Lleida


Distance to: HRV_EIA:I23904
0.02502255 Italian_Veneto
0.02670273 Swiss_Italian
0.02680831 Italian_Bergamo
0.02734474 Italian_Piedmont
0.02818026 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02986283 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.03034878 Italian_Northeast
0.03054387 Italian_Lombardy
0.03267342 Italian_Tuscany
0.03382955 Italian_Liguria
0.03404416 Albanian
0.03437561 French_Provence
0.03445712 Spanish_Baleares
0.03448954 French_Corsica
0.03477322 Greek_Thessaly
0.03565770 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03711959 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03715601 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03910690 Spanish_Girona
0.03913202 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03921985 Italian_Umbria
0.03928261 Spanish_Menorca
0.03967775 Greek_Macedonia
0.04063756 Rumelia_East
0.04107373 Spanish_Penedes


Distance to: HRV_EBA:I3499
0.02879148 Italian_Tuscany
0.03018715 Italian_Piedmont
0.03348532 Swiss_Italian
0.03385035 French_Corsica
0.03433014 Italian_Lombardy
0.03462348 Italian_Marche
0.03561604 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.03563724 Italian_Umbria
0.03572884 Italian_Bergamo
0.03630241 Greek_Thessaly
0.03644951 Italian_Veneto
0.03703327 Italian_Liguria
0.03729837 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04001548 Albanian
0.04106993 Italian_Lazio
0.04124768 Spanish_Menorca
0.04270784 Greek_Messenia
0.04327473 Greek_Achaea
0.04338733 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04341330 Greek_Elis
0.04347684 Greek_Argolis
0.04369304 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.04397374 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04404880 Greek_Macedonia
0.04409683 Italian_Molise


Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747
0.02719048 Italian_Piedmont
0.02937583 Italian_Bergamo
0.03036875 Italian_Veneto
0.03061270 Italian_Lombardy
0.03163241 Swiss_Italian
0.03196803 French_Corsica
0.03213899 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.03222116 Italian_Tuscany
0.03224369 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03505209 Italian_Liguria
0.03562570 Greek_Thessaly
0.03580855 Albanian
0.03658875 Spanish_Menorca
0.03676015 Italian_Northeast
0.03739856 Spanish_Baleares
0.03794648 Italian_Umbria
0.03888913 Italian_Marche
0.03907831 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03922832 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04023320 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04023621 Greek_Macedonia
0.04073521 French_Provence
0.04201664 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.04215531 Greek_Achaea
0.04217514 Greek_Messenia



Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.02536241 Italian_Veneto
0.02601193 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02638392 Italian_Northeast
0.02687862 Italian_Bergamo
0.02746472 Italian_Piedmont
0.02834579 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.02854889 Swiss_Italian
0.03027487 Italian_Lombardy
0.03331844 Italian_Liguria
0.03337391 French_Provence
0.03379873 Italian_Tuscany
0.03438593 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03529296 Albanian
0.03571370 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03610133 Greek_Thessaly
0.03716510 Spanish_Baleares
0.03844930 Swiss_French
0.03849351 French_Corsica
0.03897162 Spanish_Menorca
0.03939437 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03972230 Bulgarian
0.03989301 Romanian
0.04028343 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04050747 Spanish_Girona
0.04057025 Spanish_Penedes


Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.02619178 Albanian
0.02677144 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.02911937 Italian_Piedmont
0.03034761 Italian_Tuscany
0.03061987 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03085234 Greek_Thessaly
0.03190831 Swiss_Italian
0.03234009 Greek_Argolis
0.03288749 Italian_Veneto
0.03316932 Rumelia_East
0.03321123 Greek_Macedonia
0.03339105 Greek_Corinthia
0.03353053 Italian_Bergamo
0.03360976 Greek_Arcadia
0.03368977 Greek_Messenia
0.03421736 Greek_Achaea
0.03480553 Greek_Elis
0.03540049 French_Corsica
0.03542669 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.03555502 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03570269 Italian_Umbria
0.03670413 Italian_Marche
0.03685167 Italian_Lombardy
0.03727836 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03735147 Italian_Northeast


Distance to: HRV_BA:I5074
0.01933360 Italian_Lombardy
0.02007196 Italian_Liguria
0.02385018 Italian_Bergamo
0.02474163 Italian_Piedmont
0.02639054 Italian_Veneto
0.02655881 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03165031 Italian_Tuscany
0.03204363 Swiss_Italian
0.03230862 Italian_Northeast
0.03324344 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.03363459 French_Corsica
0.03426332 Spanish_Menorca
0.03536740 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03574230 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03603748 Greek_Thessaly
0.03608931 French_Provence
0.03711752 Spanish_Baleares
0.03755303 Italian_Marche
0.03824107 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03889650 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03935315 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04032223 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04057491 Italian_Umbria
0.04070978 Spanish_Penedes
0.04081587 Spanish_Girona



Distance to: HRV_BA:I18712
0.02412870 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02541695 Italian_Lombardy
0.02733900 Italian_Veneto
0.02751490 Italian_Bergamo
0.02887731 Italian_Piedmont
0.03208263 Italian_Liguria
0.03221229 Spanish_Menorca
0.03322855 Rizza-Albanian-Kosovo
0.03411513 Italian_Northeast
0.03434475 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03441538 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03453390 Spanish_Baleares
0.03505555 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03590085 French_Corsica
0.03591764 Italian_Tuscany
0.03624983 Swiss_Italian
0.03677414 French_Provence
0.03846568 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03858197 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03892169 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03909586 Spanish_Penedes
0.03912042 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03952427 Spanish_Girona
0.03986617 Greek_Thessaly
0.04007821 Spanish_Lleida

[Rizza]

............

[Rizza]

Partly descendants of Dardanians are Kosovo Serbs. Their paleo-Balkanic Y DNA is from Dardanians, and it is very far from Albanian including their E-V13.

Some of the Albanian-Bulgarian matches inside of basic Albanian haplos from early middle age
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY95428/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-KMS66/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY73185/

These are not even the most common Albanian clades. We know Bulgaria invaded Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania and settled there also. I'd say even some I2a in Southern Albania is from Bulgarians. Even toponyms are from Bulgarians like 'Berat' which comes from the Bulgarian 'Belgrade' , which is a Bulgarian toponym and not Serbian. Even the capital of Serbia was Bulgarian before Serb. There are also shared matches with Vlachs like Romanians and Aromanians and they originated most likely in the Western Balkans too and there were Albanian migrations into Romania. Albanians have continuity in Kosovo too together with Vlachs. Could of also mixed with some Thracians, Greeks, Romans and other native Balkan people during Roman period. Don't see how this proves proto-Albanian was Thracian.

We are going to listen to a guy who claims Montenigrin tribes such as Piperi do not match Albanians when they do , they match Albanian R1b. And there are other clades shared with Albanians. You even claimed one time Serbs match Bulgarians.

Your people conquered Kosovo only in the 12th-13th century . It seems to be a hard fact to swallow for you and your nationalist claims.


All EV-13 in the Balkans could of never possibly spread with Thracians. Many Kosovo Serbs are settlers from other areas and many families did not live in Kosovo more than 200 years. Many of them migrated into Kosovo during Ottoman period in the 1700's and 1800's , also families that were settled during colonization. There were also Orthodox Vlachs from Greece that settled Kosovo and became Serbianized in the 1800's influenced by the Orthodox church .

[kingmob]

On a sidenote, it looks like the only reason modern Greeks are separate to Balkaners (to the extent that they are, large or small) is due to the waves of Anatolian influx over the years since the medieval period; influx that 'easternised' them in relation to the Daco-Thracian + Slavic mix that is the dominant element in the region.

[CommonSense]

One of the models that G25 pops out when you run the Albanian average in the G25 ancient averages scaled spreadsheet in 3 populations mode:


Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.8048% / 0.00804798 | R3P
63.4 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
27.4 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA
9.2 TKM_Sumbar_LBA

[Mayuk24]

There are tons of calculators that place me right there with the ancient romans. Where is this eastern input?

Below is the ancient averages in Bond's thread

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366190-Model-yourself-using-the-newest-Ancient-averages-G25-sheet&p=7576660&viewfull=1#post7576660

Distance to: Hulu_scaled
0.02532527 ALB_PostMdv
0.03048612 HRV_Trogir_Byz
0.03083662 ALB_Mdv
0.03196322 TUR_Marmara_Balikesir_PostMdv
0.03199439 HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.03388805 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.03495720 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.03641269 MKD_BA
0.03648497 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03679325 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.03837947 MKD_Anc
0.03868644 ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.03917377 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03954657 IND_Roopkund_B
0.04061149 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.04182607 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04185206 ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.04306871 BGR_IA
0.04312483 ITA_Etruria_Imperial
0.04467269 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.04548653 HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.04585403 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.04642674 BGR_TellKran_EBA
0.04644471 MNE_LBA
0.04718623 Scythian_MDA


https://pastebin.com/mNvw68ys

what do you get with this cal ?

I'm spanish and my albanian friend gets the same spanish guy ... this spanish samples are very similar to some albanians ... c;

[Rizza]

Apparently one needs to be 100% identical to Bronze Age / Iron Age samples from the Balkans in order to be descendant from them, for example we have J2b2-L283 among Illyrians and R1b which are some of the most common markers in modern Albanians. Even if let's say there was some change, which does not even seem to be that huge or dramatical since we are practically genetically Southern European like our ancestors, how would that change proto-Albanian was still Illyrian ? The OP uses basically this ''change'' to supposedly claim Albanian could of never come from Illyrian. What exactly does it concern the OP who proto-Albanians mixed with or assimilated ?


I also ran those Thracians and they cluster nowhere near Albanians, they score like 70% Neolithic. Even the most Southern Albanians aren't as South as them.

Also how is it possible that all EV-13 was ever some kind of Thracian marker and spread mainly with Thracian ? Especially when we look at it's modern distribution and frequency it seems to be impossible.

[Rizza]

I ran those Thracians from Bulgaria together with those samples from Northern Albania and added Albanian averages and every single Albanian region comes out more Illyrian. Thracian is BG here and Illyrian Alb_Cinamak_Anc


Target: Albanian_Kosovo
Distance: 2.2681% / 0.02268101
91.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
8.8 BGR_IA


Target: Albanian_Montenegro
Distance: 2.1986% / 0.02198592
90.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
7.4 BGR_IA
2.2 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA


Target: Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
Distance: 2.0068% / 0.02006788
86.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
13.2 BGR_IA


Target: Albanian_Himarë
Distance: 2.2890% / 0.02289008
72.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
25.4 BGR_IA
2.2 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA


Target: Albanian_Pukë
Distance: 2.3350% / 0.02335046
82.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
17.8 BGR_IA


Target: Albanian_Mirditë
Distance: 1.5468% / 0.01546816
73.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
18.6 BGR_IA
8.0 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA


Target: Albanian_Central_Albania
Distance: 2.2196% / 0.02219633
71.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
28.8 BGR_IA


Target: Albanian_Dibra
Distance: 2.2104% / 0.02210417
70.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
25.8 BGR_IA
3.4 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA


Target: Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
Distance: 1.8409% / 0.01840940
84.0 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
16.0 BGR_IA


Target: Albanian_Labëria
Distance: 2.3374% / 0.02337373
77.6 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
22.4 BGR_IA


Target: Albanian_Korçë
Distance: 2.5296% / 0.02529601
84.6 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
15.4 BGR_IA




I did not use Slavic here. However, When I added Slavic many still come out more Illyrian above 50% but the distance is no better actually. It's only when I use only North Albania Illyrian and Slavic the distance is better such as here:


Target: Albanian_Kosovo
Distance: 1.9825% / 0.01982496
84.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
15.6 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Montenegro
Distance: 1.8210% / 0.01820983
81.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
18.2 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
Distance: 1.8304% / 0.01830376
87.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
12.2 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Himarë
Distance: 2.5444% / 0.02544389
96.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
3.8 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Pukë
Distance: 2.3862% / 0.02386246
92.0 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
8.0 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Mirditë
Distance: 1.9173% / 0.01917274
100.0 ALB_Cinamak_Anc


Target: Albanian_Central_Albania
Distance: 2.5263% / 0.02526291
97.6 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
2.4 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Dibra
Distance: 2.5201% / 0.02520113
94.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
5.8 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Dibra
Distance: 2.5201% / 0.02520113
94.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
5.8 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Labëria
Distance: 2.4882% / 0.02488214
94.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
5.8 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Korçë
Distance: 2.4121% / 0.02412055
87.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
12.2 Migration_Period



Anyway we can see these results are still not accurate. So I added samples from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania and Montenegro + Slavic together and the Thracian Bulgaria entirely disappears.



Target: Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
Distance: 1.3816% / 0.01381604
45.8 MKD_Anc
29.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
14.0 Migration_Period
10.8 MNE_LBA


Just one example above here



Here is when we use only Illyrian from Montenegro, Croatia and Albania + Slavic:



Target: Albanian_Pukë
Distance: 0.7751% / 0.00775136
72.8 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
14.2 Albania_IA_Rom
8.0 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom
5.0 Migration_Period


Target: Albanian_Himarë
Distance: 0.9664% / 0.00966426
74.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
24.4 Albania_IA_Rom
1.2 Migration_Period



Target: Albanian_Montenegro
Distance: 0.7366% / 0.00736555
41.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
27.0 Albania_IA_Rom
16.0 Migration_Period
15.6 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom



The distance is even better actually or if we only use Illyrian Montenegro + Albania + Slavic I believe .


Adding all these Illyrians in Montenegro + North Macedonia + Albania still gives more Illyrian compared to Bulgaria and these Illyrians are closer to Albanians. The OP thought these Illyrians cluster like all samples in Croatia when they are actually more South so she jumped to conclusions. :lol:

Of course I did not use Bronze Age Macedonia and Bronze Age Albania which would possibly give even better results nor is there any reason to use samples from Bulgaria since there is no evidence of any Albanian population coming from there.
¨

The OP pretty much shot herself in the foot. :lol:

[Rizza]

No matter what, adding outlier samples from Macedonia including outliers, Montenegro, Bulgaria , Albania etc still gives more Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro etc compared to Bulgaria and even better fit


Target: Albanian_Montenegro
Distance: 1.7419% / 0.01741912
47.0 MNE_LBA
38.6 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
8.8 MKD_Anc_o1
4.0 MKD_Anc
1.6 MKD_Anc_o2

One of those outliers clusters like a Near Eastern and there might be some small near eastern ancestry , but definitely not 30% and you see it gives no Bulgaria and the distance is not bad but good actually. We can add Slavic of course too named here ''migration period'' gives more Slavic , good fit but still no Bulgaria almost.


Here is when I ran distance for each Albanian region with samples from Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Albania to see which ones are closer (I am not using Bronze Age Macedonia or Bronze Age Albania which would give even better fit possibly but only only Iron Age for those)


Distance to: Albanian_Kosovo
0.02683765 HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.02977683 MNE_LBA:I13775
0.02997476 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.03047477 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.03096426 MNE_LBA:I13168
0.03107179 MKD_Anc:I10384
0.03135949 HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03157371 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.03181992 HRV_EIA:I23995
0.03193409 MNE_LBA:I13777
0.03267301 MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03315059 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747
0.03344434 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.03444674 HRV_EIA:I26742
0.03449017 MKD_Anc:I10385
0.03574594 MNE_LBA:I13169
0.03588815 MNE_LBA:I13171
0.03632464 MKD_Anc:I10388
0.03656121 MNE_LBA:I13172
0.03767123 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.03817303 HRV_EIA:I24639
0.03825944 MKD_Anc:I8112
0.03846598 HRV_IA:I5729
0.03847572 MNE_LBA:I14501
0.03854607 MNE_LBA:I14498




No Bulgaria :lol:




I am not sure in what planet are we supposed to be minor Illyrian :lol:

[Rizza]

It's actually mind blowing how the OP has not been banned from this place together with some of these Serbs, a ban would be well deserved for this idiot :lol:

Almost no European ethnicity can claim to be unchanged since the Iron Age, some admixture and change has occurred, but these Illyrians come pretty close to Albanians , just look at my sig too .

[Hulu]

Thread title should be changed because it's obviously not true. Or send it to Troll carnival.

[Rizza]

Thread title should be changed because it's obviously not true. Or send it to Troll carnival.

Albanians are the least changed in the Balkans actually

[Jana]

Thread title should be changed because it's obviously not true. Or send it to Troll carnival.

Nah, you are both just dumb fucks. Lock.