Huge genetic changes in Albanians since Paleo-Balkan times. [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Jana

09-09-2022, 11:38 PM

The autosomal results don’t show any change, let alone a ‘huge change’.

It is a huge change if modern Albanians have less than 50% Iron Age Albania (south Illyrian) ancestry. Nothing wrong with it.

EV13 was the most successful and selected paternal lineage, that’s all I can tell if anything at all.

Thing is iron and bronze age Albania as well as rest of western Balkans (except one sole Croatian sample that belongs to a branch that has no modern descendants) were devoid of E-V13.
On the other hand, Kapitan Andreevo Thracian site in Bulgaria was full of this marker.

they were genetically like this:

Distance to: BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA

0.04965869 French_Corsica
0.04976901 Italian_Lazio
0.05053609 Italian_Apulia
0.05248833 Italian_Umbria
0.05257424 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05268514 Italian_Basilicata
0.05297650 Italian_Campania
0.05307707 Italian_Molise
0.05329884 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.05332408 Italian_Marche
0.05448981 Sicilian_East
0.05512665 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05513234 Italian_Calabria
0.05556024 Italian_Tuscany
0.05566664 Greek_Corinthia
0.05590934 Greek_Argolis
0.05617102 Greek_Izmir
0.05639286 Greek_Laconia
0.05728583 Greek_Peloponnese
0.05754860 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.05789957 Greek_Arcadia
0.05810424 Greek_Achaea
0.05811970 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.05851859 Greek_Messenia
0.05857884 Greek_Elis

And cultures mixed, for example the Dardanians were an Illyrian-Thracian hybrid which shows paternally in Kosovo Albanians, but they identified as Illyrian.

Dardanians being fusion of both and location of Kosovo in central Balkans close to proto-Romanian/Vlach population would make sense as Albanian ancient homeland.

So EV13 carriers automatically not being Illyrian is just a silly conclusion to jump to. It’s much more complex than that.

It's really not. E-V13 is simply not Illyrian. If Illyrians from Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and Albania did not carry such marker, and neither did Illyrian descended Messapians in southern Italy, than it's clear it was not present among them.
In the end not all Albanians are E-V13. Many do carry actual Illyrian markers like J2b2 and certain subclades of R1b.

It’s like saying South Slavs are now not Slavs because they are not 100%?
It’s about carrying their legacy.

Sure. Just saying Albanians are not primarly descended from Illyrians and hopefully more attention will be paid to other Paleo-Balkanic elements in the future as well.

Edit: I only saw the Italian_Tuscany population which Albanians overlap with but even so it’s not as SW shifted as the Croatian Illyrian. It is equidistant between a Spaniard and a modern Albanian for example. Interesting.

Iron Age Illyrians from Albania are clearly SW Europan like and pretty similar to iron age Croatians, just a bit more southern.

Distance to: ALB_Çinamak_Anc

0.02190302 Italian_Liguria-Emilia
0.02237066 Italian_Bergamo
0.02315650 Italian_Veneto
0.02611257 Italian_Tuscany
0.02730387 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02864169 Italian_Lombardy
0.02990332 French_Corsica

Jana

09-09-2022, 11:41 PM

lol, you still insist on this :lol:

Where is the rest of the samples?

Also, can we compare?

There's 2 major flaws with this:

1st: there's no documented movement of Albanians moving there (like there is with yugoslavs)
2nd: we are similar to Greeks and Italians genetically. We should have been more eastern if we came from eastern Balkans.

There's nothing left to insist. And it is not surprise little is known about movement of Albanians since medieval information about them is really obscure.

Jana

09-09-2022, 11:45 PM

Found them . Such distances :clap::victory0:

Distance to: Hulu_scaled
0.03230718 ALB_PostMdv:I15707
0.03260783 ALB_Mdv:I13839
0.03459295 ALB_PostMdv:I14686
0.03523258 ALB_Mdv:I14622
0.03793376 ALB_PostMdv:I14685
0.04015732 ALB_PostMdv:I15706
0.04099086 ALB_PostMdv:I14687
0.04518342 ALB_Mdv:I13834
0.04644084 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.04982950 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.05188698 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.05382566 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688
0.05513302 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253
0.05705743 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256
0.05733522 ALB_MBA:I8471
0.06296217 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254
0.07066078 AUT_IA_La_Tene:I11701
0.07521148 AUT_IA_La_Tene:I11708
0.08681527 AUT_IA_La_Tene:I11699
0.10049016 HUN_Vinca_MN:I1895
0.10934014 Iberia_Argar_Almoloya_Early:ALM001
0.11389408 AUT_LBK_N:I5068
0.11898820 AUT_LBK_N:I5204
0.11919192 AUT_LBK_N:I5069
0.11924878 AUT_LBK_N:I5205

Well yeah, pretty different especially since Albanians got more SE Balkanic input and later NE Slavic input.

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0229% / 0.02289750

46.0 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
30.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
23.8 RUS_Sunghir_MA

RUS_Sunghir_MA,0.129758,0.116786,0.070899,0.060078 ,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868
ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA,0.1206523,0.1614692,0.00835 93,-0.0527028,0.0323137,-0.0258903,0.001645,-0.0029232,0.012033,0.0480497,0.0018675,0.0096915,-0.0182605,0.0016517,-0.023525,-0.0100547,0.011213,0.0040962,0.0112082,-0.0087542,-0.010024,0.0014218,-0.0033688,0.001044,-0.0068658

Hulu

09-09-2022, 11:52 PM

Well yeah, pretty different especially since Albanians got more SE Balkanic input and later NE Slavic input.

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0229% / 0.02289750

46.0 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
30.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
23.8 RUS_Sunghir_MA

RUS_Sunghir_MA,0.129758,0.116786,0.070899,0.060078 ,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868
ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA,0.1206523,0.1614692,0.00835 93,-0.0527028,0.0323137,-0.0258903,0.001645,-0.0029232,0.012033,0.0480497,0.0018675,0.0096915,-0.0182605,0.0016517,-0.023525,-0.0100547,0.011213,0.0040962,0.0112082,-0.0087542,-0.010024,0.0014218,-0.0033688,0.001044,-0.0068658

There are tons of calculators that place me right there with the ancient romans. Where is this eastern input?

Below is the ancient averages in Bond's thread

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366190-Model-yourself-using-the-newest-Ancient-averages-G25-sheet&p=7576660&viewfull=1#post7576660

Distance to: Hulu_scaled
0.02532527 ALB_PostMdv
0.03048612 HRV_Trogir_Byz
0.03083662 ALB_Mdv
0.03196322 TUR_Marmara_Balikesir_PostMdv
0.03199439 HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.03388805 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.03495720 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.03641269 MKD_BA
0.03648497 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03679325 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.03837947 MKD_Anc
0.03868644 ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.03917377 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03954657 IND_Roopkund_B
0.04061149 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.04182607 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04185206 ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.04306871 BGR_IA
0.04312483 ITA_Etruria_Imperial
0.04467269 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.04548653 HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.04585403 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.04642674 BGR_TellKran_EBA
0.04644471 MNE_LBA
0.04718623 Scythian_MDA

Jana

09-09-2022, 11:54 PM

There are tons of calculators that place me right there with the ancient romans. Where is this eastern input?

Are you trolling? Bulgarian IA (Thracian) is the eastern input you are looking for and source of E-V13 haplogroup.

rothaer

09-10-2022, 12:01 AM

(...)

Wow, is this fitting to your other results, that tiny Slavic propotion just??:

Target: Hulu(Albanian)
Distance: 3.0709% / 0.03070867
69.6 Balkan
18.4 Celtic-like
9.6 Graeco-Roman
2.4 (Balto-)Slavic

Aldaris

09-10-2022, 12:21 AM

Lo suficientemente lejos de nosotros, suficiente para mi.

Hulu

09-10-2022, 12:26 AM

Are you trolling? Bulgarian IA (Thracian) is the eastern input you are looking for and source of E-V13 haplogroup.

:lol:

You should release a paper with this conclusion :D

My ydna clade. So thracian

https://i.imgur.com/A7WSZei.png

Hulu

09-10-2022, 12:35 AM

Wow, is this fitting to your other results, that tiny Slavic propotion just??:

Target: Hulu(Albanian)
Distance: 3.0709% / 0.03070867
69.6 Balkan
18.4 Celtic-like
9.6 Graeco-Roman
2.4 (Balto-)Slavic

Not sure what you mean? My slavic is low?

MandM

09-10-2022, 07:09 AM

So when did J2 and R1B come to Eastern Balkan was it maby during the middle ages or earlier?

Halgurd

09-10-2022, 07:55 AM

Are you trolling? Bulgarian IA (Thracian) is the eastern input you are looking for and source of E-V13 haplogroup.

Yes, evidence increasingly shows that E-V13 spread with the Thracians.

Varda

09-10-2022, 09:08 AM

MandM

09-10-2022, 09:16 AM

I dont understand why do some albanians have problem that the ones who are E-V13 are of thracien origin, it not like its questening there paleobalkanes

Varda

09-10-2022, 09:18 AM

--

--

--

--

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366206-White-Croat-sample-from-Bosnia-!&p=7576619&viewfull=1#post7576619

Varda

09-10-2022, 09:21 AM

Illyrians were autosomally similar to modern Spaniards and North Italians. All present day Balkanites are far away from them.

kingmob

09-10-2022, 09:45 AM

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 10:08 AM

W/o wanting to derail the thread (sorry, Feiichy), I would also like to add that modern Greek E-V13 seems to be of Thracian/Dacian origin and brought to Greece in Medieval times by Vlach migrations from modern day Romania and Moldova, just like Byzantine historiographer Laonicos Chacocondyles describes in his treaties (around the time of Emperor Heraclius onwards and peaking probably between 12th-14th century).

So people from British Isles, Germania, France that have the E-V13 Haplogroup came from modern Vlachs - are you stupid because you are CHG or are you CHG and therefore stupid?

Talking about not wanting to derail the thread with nonsense.

Firenna

09-10-2022, 10:28 AM

Illyrians were autosomally similar to modern Spaniards and North Italians. All present day Balkanites are far away from them.

Slavic migrations shifted Balkanites north, but which peoples shifted them south(east)?

kingmob

09-10-2022, 10:45 AM

So people from British Isles, Germania, France that have the E-V13 Haplogroup came from modern Vlachs - are you stupid because you are CHG or are you CHG and therefore stupid?

Talking about not wanting to derail the thread with nonsense.

E-V13 being Thracian makes historical sense, because they consisted of a large part of the early Roman army in its expansion as footsoldiers, by the time of the Byzantine Empire, Thracians produced even Emperors. What we call "Vlachs" is the evolution of the historical Dacian and Thracian populace.

Now go kys, complexed pos.

kingmob

09-10-2022, 10:51 AM

Slavic migrations shifted Balkanites north, but which peoples shifted them south(east)?

https://cdn.britannica.com/46/64946-050-3D7FE219/Byzantine-Empire.jpg

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 10:56 AM

E-V13 being Thracian makes historical sense, because they consisted of a large part of the early Roman army in its expansion as footsoldiers, by the time of the Byzantine Empire, Thracians produced even Emperors. What we call "Vlachs" is the evolution of the historical Dacian and Thracian populace.

Now go kys, complexed pos.

What Thracians and nonsense?

23% of Greeks are E-V13

Furthermore CHG blockhead.

Southern Italy (Apulia and Calabria) contains sites of
the early Neolithic period (Whitehouse 1968), but we
know from history that these regions were subsequently
colonized by the Greeks (Peloponnesians). To test the relative contribution of Greek colonists versus putative earlier Neolithic settlers, an admixture analysis (Bertorelle
and Excoffier 1998) was performed, using E-M78 and
J-M172(xM12) as signatures of Greek and Anatolian
lineages, respectively. The Anatolian source population
was based on 523 Turks, of whom 118 were JM172(xM12) and 25 were E-M78 (Cinniog˘lu et al.
2004). The Greek population comprised 36 Peloponnesian samples, 5 of which were J-M172(xM12) and 17
of which were E-M78 (R.K., unpublished data). In spite
of the small Peloponnesian sample size, the high E-M78
frequency (47%) observed here is consistent with that
(44%) independently found in the same region (Di Giacomo et al. 2003) for the YAP chromosomes harboring
microsatellite haplotypes (A. Novelletto, personal communication) typical of Hg E-M78 (Cruciani et al. 2004
[in this issue]; present study). The admixture analysis
yielded an admixture proportion from Greece of
0.070.15 for the Calabrian samples and of 0.220.15
for the Apulian samples. SD was determined by bootstrapping 1,000 replicates.

What does this have to do with Thrace and Vlachs?

kingmob

09-10-2022, 10:59 AM

What does this have to do with Thrace and Vlachs?

You know the answer, but you'd rather have large amounts of copium, instead, just like how you think Karakachans have a 20.000 year of history in the Helladic space (rofl).

E-V13 in Greece is Thracian/Vlach related, "mainland" Greeks are essentially almost in their entirety a Balkanovlach populace.

We can continue this humiliation of yours in another relative thread, don't want to derail further.

PS. Citing 2003/04 studies, rofl, my fkn sides :lol::lol::lol:

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 11:01 AM

You know the answer, but you'd rather have large amounts of copium, instead, just like how you think Karakachans have a 20.000 year of history in the Helladic space (rofl).

E-V13 in Greece is Thracian/Vlach related, "mainland" Greeks are essentially almost in their entirety a Balkanovlach populace.

We can continue this humiliation of yours in another relative thread, don't want to derail further.

I know what answer - that scholars looking at Greek lineages in Magna Graecia came from Thacians and Vlachs?

Give yourself an uppercut.

kingmob

09-10-2022, 11:04 AM

I know what answer - that scholars looking at Greek lineages in Magna Graecia came from Thacians and Vlachs?

Give yourself an uppercut.

You have provided zero proof, imbecile, Feiichy is citing the absolutely latest developments.

And stop the act, I could crush you like a bug on the wall, fggt.

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 11:08 AM

You have provided zero proof, imbecile, Feiichy is citing the absolutely latest developments.

And stop the act, I could crush you like a bug on the wall, fggt.

CHG blockhead I am not and never will claim to be a wannabe genealogist.

If I want detailed analysis on this type of thing I will research and maybe even purchase scholarly works - bu making ad hoc stupid statements due to your deep hatred for mainland Greeks is inappropriate.

As for not having evidence of Greek lineages of E-V13 in Magna Graecia like lol......maybe buy a clue? Or just search for Ornella Semino and Luca Cavalli Sforza it might help with your learning disabilities.

kingmob

09-10-2022, 11:12 AM

CHG blockhead I am not and never will claim to be a wannabe genealogist.

If I want detailed analysis on this type of thing I will research and maybe even purchase scholarly works - bu making ad hoc stupid statements due to your deep hatred for mainland Greeks is inappropriate.

As for not having evidence of Greek lineages of E-V13 in Magna Graecia like lol......maybe buy a clue? Or just search for Ornella Semino and Luca Cavalli Sforza it might help with your learning disabilities.

You, simpleton, the 2003/04 studies you cite refer to parent E-M78 that has a TMRCA of 13.2K years and numerous downstreams, somewhere in Neolithic Anatolia.

E-V13 has a TMRCA of 4.8K years and Feiichy has just shown it to be massively found in Thracian archaelogy, not yet found in any of the ancient Greek samples published so far.

Retard, now go be a good little kebab server and stop wasting everyone's time.

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 11:15 AM

You, simpleton, the 2003/04 studies you cite refer to parent E-M78 that has a TMRCA of 13.2K years and numerous downstreams, somewhere in Neolithic Anatolia.

E-V13 has a TMRCA of 4.8K years and Feiichy has just shown it to be massively found in Thracian archaelogy, not yet found in any of the ancient Greek samples published so far.

Retard, now go be a good little kebab server and stop wasting everyone's time.

LOL - you both must be pretty stupid then because Thrace didnt even exist during the Neolithic expansion and hence E-V13 expansion so claiming it was Thracian and came from modern Vlachs which is what you claimed is hilarious.

Pull your head in blockhead

MandM

09-10-2022, 12:55 PM

Varda has already started with his theories, give it a rest :rolleyes:. I personally don’t mind what these papers show, I worry how (some) Serbs will use this to manipulate findings in their favour. They are in all corners of the Internet particularly Wikipedia like a cult . Hence why so many Albanians are numerous on anthroforums discussing their origins. Now we originate from Bulgaria according to our Varda .

Dont think he means bulgaria, just were bulgaria is located today, and its not all Albanians just the ones who are E-V13, and does it really mather if its thracian or illyrian both are paleobalkan

Hulu

09-10-2022, 01:35 PM

:lol:

You should release a paper with this conclusion :D

My ydna clade. So thracian

https://i.imgur.com/A7WSZei.png

I dont understand why do some albanians have problem that the ones who are E-V13 are of thracien origin, it not like its questening there paleobalkanes

Because it isn't true. Ev13 is not Thracian only. It was Illyrian as well. Look at this pic that shows the distribution of ancient samples of my Ev13 clade for the past 7000 years and it coincides perfectly with the Illyrian habitat.

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 01:57 PM

Because it isn't true. Ev13 is not Thracian only. It was Illyrian as well. Look at this pic that shows the distribution of ancient samples of my Ev13 clade for the past 7000 years and it coincides perfectly with the Illyrian habitat.

You are all equally retarded. E-V13 doesn't belong to anyone other than the people that are carrying this Haplogroup.

In terms where it originated from - you are all too stupid to form any appropriate and logical conclusions.

Hulu

09-10-2022, 02:00 PM

You are all equally retarded. E-V13 doesn't belong to anyone other than the people that are carrying this Haplogroup.

In terms where it originated from - you are all too stupid to form any appropriate and logical conclusions.

Sorry I dont speak stupid

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 02:01 PM

Sorry I dont speak stupid

You didn't convince me.

Hulu

09-10-2022, 02:02 PM

You didn't convince me.

Exactly...

I have put up pictures if you dont understand words..

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 02:03 PM

Exactly...

Haplo nationalist dumbos

Hulu

09-10-2022, 02:07 PM

Haplo nationalist dumbos

I brought up autosomal as well :lol: Or documented history that aparently didnt exist in Yugoslavia.

Dušan

09-10-2022, 03:37 PM

Dardanians being fusion of both and location of Kosovo in central Balkans close to proto-Romanian/Vlach population would make sense as Albanian ancient homeland.

Wrong, plains of Kosovo and Metohija were controlled by Romans and there was complete latinisation of the area, before Slavic migrations.
Ulpiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulpiana) was large Roman city in Kosovo.
Slavs only met romanophone Vlachs, that they absorbed into own corpus.

Albanians lived in remoted mountains of Albania, thus they kept their language and avoided Latin.
Or maybe they came to Albania from mountains of Bulgaria, as Varda said.

MandM

09-10-2022, 03:54 PM

Because it isn't true. Ev13 is not Thracian only. It was Illyrian as well. Look at this pic that shows the distribution of ancient samples of my Ev13 clade for the past 7000 years and it coincides perfectly with the Illyrian habitat.
I think that map is made when they thought that Illyrians might be E-V13, but at the moment it dosent seem like it, maby they will find Illyrian with that HP group, but with what we have today, E-V13 seems to be Thracian

Hulu

09-10-2022, 03:57 PM

I think that map is made when they thought that Illyrians might be E-V13, but at the moment it dosent seem like it, maby they will find Illyrian with that HP group, but with what we have today, E-V13 seems to be Thracian

Lol omg I cant with you people. It's my actual matches of my ydna clade. It's not hypothecial.

Geni_kameni

09-10-2022, 04:40 PM

Albanians are from caucasus

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:08 PM

:lol:

You should release a paper with this conclusion :D

My ydna clade. So thracian

https://i.imgur.com/A7WSZei.png

well you can always show us Illyrian samples with E-V13 if you can.

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:17 PM

Hulu

09-10-2022, 05:18 PM

You are looking at them in that map...

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:20 PM

You are looking at them in that map...

Please post the paper where they are from.

Dušan

09-10-2022, 05:22 PM

I am not interested in politically fueled theories. these would fit best with current genetic evidence.

They would speak Romance if they had lived near Roman cities.
But no, they speak isolated language, because they always lived in remoted isolated mountains.

Hulu

09-10-2022, 05:24 PM

They spoke Roman as lingua franca because they were part of the Roman Empire. Up until Justinian at least in 565 AD they identified as Illyrians. Justinian's biographer who wrote his biography confirmed it. Look up "Illyrians in Constantinople"

Renekton

09-10-2022, 05:27 PM

:pop2::pop2::pop2::pop2::pop2::pop2:

Varda

09-10-2022, 05:27 PM

Wrong, plains of Kosovo and Metohija were controlled by Romans and there was complete latinisation of the area, before Slavic migrations.
Ulpiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulpiana) was large Roman city in Kosovo.
Slavs only met romanophone Vlachs, that they absorbed into own corpus.

Albanians lived in remoted mountains of Albania, thus they kept their language and avoided Latin.
Or maybe they came to Albania from mountains of Bulgaria, as Varda said.

Yes.
Dardania was quite urbanized during the Roman rule, had important cities, a roads etc. Except that Dardania is not so mountainous, it is mostly composed of valleys, plains and plateaus. Avoiding of romanization was impossible in Dardania.
Only paleo-Balkan group for which exist historical sources that they were not romanized are Thracian tribe Bessi who lived in the mountains of modern Bulgaria.

Albanian-Bulgarian genetic connections from the early middle age inside of basic Albanian haplogroups
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY95428/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-KMS66/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY73185/

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 05:29 PM

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 05:32 PM

..another factoid of the weak and dumb being wiped off the map is Pontus and many other Anatolian statelets - facts of realities.

Cyprus is 10x smaller than Turkey ans still manages to survive why? Because they are smart......

Dušan

09-10-2022, 05:33 PM

Yes.
Dardania was quite urbanized during the Roman rule, had important cities, a roads etc. Except that Dardania is not so mountainous, it is mostly composed of valleys, plains and plateaus. Avoiding of romanization was impossible in Dardania.
Only paleo-Balkan group for which exist historical sources that they were not romanized are Thracian tribe Bessi who lived in the mountains of modern Bulgaria.

Albanian-Bulgarian genetic connections from the early middle age inside of basic Albanian haplogroups
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY95428/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-KMS66/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY73185/

Here is ancient Ulpiana with panorama of Kosovo field.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/J05THG/ulpiana-kosovo-panorama-J05THG.jpg

Avoiding Romanisation here is impossible.

By the way, only 1,5 kilometer away of Ulpiana is Gračanica medieval Serbian Orthodox monastery.

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:34 PM

They would speak Romance if they had lived near Roman cities.
But no, they speak isolated language, because they always lived in remoted isolated mountains.

Yes, and there are plenty of such mountains in Balkans.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FAjqnDHWYAY8TcK?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Renekton

09-10-2022, 05:34 PM

Justinian and his family as far I remember was from Illyrian descent.

He was born in tauresium.

Tauresium (Latin; Macedonian: Тауресиум), today as Gradište (Macedonian: Градиште), is an archaeological site in North Macedonia, approximately 20 kilometres (12 mi) southeast of the capital Skopje.

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:36 PM

Illyrians were wiped off the map by Romans in 168 BC
Too weak and stupid like Thracians that were also wiped off the map.

Truth hurts - but Illyrians were either taken as slaves or completely exterminated and left an unpopulated area. Don't blame me.

Wek and dumb dont survive in this world thats why Fyrom will disappear.

You should keep quiet considering ancient Macedonian samples we got in this paper were Illyrian-like and not really different from Iron Age Albania.

MandM

09-10-2022, 05:39 PM

Lol omg I cant with you people. It's my actual matches of my ydna clade. It's not hypothecial.

Didint mean to upset you, but there is no evidence that illyrians were E-V13 at the moment, so we have to go with what we have, and that is that E-V13, we must go with evidence not our feelings

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:39 PM

Ancient Macedonians:

MKD_Anc,0.1251104,0.1524141,0.0222186,-0.0208873,0.0278512,-0.0089709,-0.0009988,-0.0027885,0.003903,0.0311472,0.0025169,0.0074183,-0.0155226,-0.0051264,-0.0129839,-0.0032705,0.0063452,0.003336,0.0072695,-0.0080663,-0.0115837,0.004709,-0.0010063,0.0065771,-0.002355

They look like southern Illyrians genetically, different from Thracians and Greeks.

Distance to: MKD_Anc

0.01829190 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.01836391 MNE_LBA
0.02114963 MKD_BA
0.02206713 HRV_Pop_CA
0.02262106 ALB_Mdv
0.02273922 HRV_BA
0.02572429 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.02621599 ALB_PostMdv
0.02674547 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.02682495 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.02838195 HRV_Cetina_BA
0.02958808 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03123243 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.03134179 HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.03151451 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.03190449 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.03214580 HRV_EIA
0.03271618 HUN_EIA
0.03352276 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.03365167 ITA_Etruscan
0.03395354 HRV_MBA
0.03569201 ITA_Daunian
0.03624151 ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.03676076 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1
0.03678421 HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 05:42 PM

You should keep quiet considering ancient Macedonian samples we got in this paper were Illyrian-like and not really different from Iron Age Albania.

Iron Age Albania - now I have heard it all. What on earth are you talking about woman.

Yes there is documented evidence of Illyrians and Thracians migrating to Greece during Roman times. But Illyrians and Thracians were wiped off the map and there is nothing to keep quiet about facts as they speak for themselves.

Varda

09-10-2022, 05:42 PM

Here is ancient Ulpiana with panorama of Kosovo field.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/J05THG/ulpiana-kosovo-panorama-J05THG.jpg

Avoiding Romanisation here is impossible.

By the way, only 1,5 kilometer away of Ulpiana is Gračanica medieval Serbian Orthodox monastery.

I passed through Kosovo twice this summer. It is wide and flat, totally different that northern and southern Albania where roads are cut into the mountains. For example mount Gjalica near Kukës is spectacularly huge and also mountains near Gjirokastër. In Kosovo i had impression as i was passing through Vojvodina.

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:43 PM

however there are two ancient Macedonian outliers and one looks Greek and other Levantine:

MKD_Anc_o1,0.093335,0.139128,-0.056191,-0.079781,-0.016003,-0.02761,-0.00282,-0.000462,-0.003681,0.010934,0.001949,-0.002548,0.016799,0.009771,-0.012758,0.00769,-0.002086,0.00114,0.001885,-0.001626,0.003369,0.002349,-0.009737,-0.001205,-0.003952
MKD_Anc_o2,0.114961,0.149283,-0.010559,-0.037145,0.00677,-0.015339,-0.011516,-0.008769,-0.005522,0.004191,0.011205,0.008992,-0.01115,0.006468,0.002172,-0.020286,-0.001825,-0.000253,0.005908,0.015132,-0.003868,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00723,-0.000958

Distance to: MKD_Anc_o2

0.04198910 Greek_Crete
0.04229070 Sicilian_East
0.04231167 Italian_Apulia
0.04256741 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04332223 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.04400602 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.04415414 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04416434 Italian_Calabria
0.04435733 Italian_Campania
0.04457123 Italian_Basilicata
0.04457981 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.04505138 Greek_Izmir
0.04652747 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.04681972 Italian_Molise
0.04696889 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04719947 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.04725074 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04732656 Greek_Laconia
0.04786286 Greek_Kos
0.04826755 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.04876532 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04901613 Italian_Marche
0.04941920 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.04962243 Greek_Elis
0.04986645 Greek_Messenia

Distance to: MKD_Anc_o1

0.02280440 Lebanese_Christian
0.02410602 Lebanese_Druze
0.02479193 Druze
0.02864740 Iraqi_Jew
0.03098847 Lebanese_Muslim
0.03149045 Karaite_Egypt
0.03160560 Kurdish_Jew
0.03514519 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.03708650 Samaritan
0.03861983 Cypriot
0.03938727 Armenian_Urfa
0.03939778 Iranian_Jew
0.03960174 Syrian_Jew
0.04334727 Armenian_Aintab
0.04384275 Georgian_Jew
0.04433461 Syrian
0.04448705 Mountain_Jew
0.04449496 Greek_Cappadocia
0.04552662 Assyrian
0.04870939 Armenian_Erzurum
0.04899642 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04972169 Armenian_Gesaria
0.05042276 Romaniote_Jew
0.05123438 Mountain_Jew_o
0.05541404 Jordanian

Jana

09-10-2022, 05:45 PM

Iron Age Albania - now I have heard it all. What on earth are you talking about woman.

Yes there is documented evidence of Illyrians and Thracians migrating to Greece during Roman times. But Illyrians and Thracians were wiped off the map and there is nothing to keep quiet about facts as they speak for themselves.

Talking about ancient samples from last Harvard paper that you obviously didn't read.

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 05:48 PM

Talking about ancient samples from last Harvard paper that you obviously didn't read.

If they quote Albanian and Bulgarian Iron Age thankfully I didnt .

Hulu

09-10-2022, 05:57 PM

Iron Age Albania - now I have heard it all. What on earth are you talking about woman.

Yes there is documented evidence of Illyrians and Thracians migrating to Greece during Roman times. But Illyrians and Thracians were wiped off the map and there is nothing to keep quiet about facts as they speak for themselves.

You're a special kind of dumb. Look up any biography of Konstantine and Justinian, they were Roman speaking Illyrians.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Justinian-I
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

catgeorge

09-10-2022, 06:01 PM

You're a special kind of dumb. Look up any biography of Konstantine and Justinian, they were Roman speaking Illyrians.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Justinian-I

They were wiped out - literally and nominally. Nothing to debate here - it was an actual event in history.

I find your little fantasies to rekindle with dumb and weak populations fascinating actually. But you do you while you sustain my amusement in it all.

Hulu

09-10-2022, 06:02 PM

:lol: kace re cobani

Hulu

09-10-2022, 06:08 PM

Look up Marcellinus you savages

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09639b.htm

kingmob

09-10-2022, 06:57 PM

You should keep quiet considering ancient Macedonian samples we got in this paper were Illyrian-like and not really different from Iron Age Albania.

The ancient Macedonians seem to be kin to Illyrians and not like Ionic Greeks. It's no wonder the latter were hostile to them, calling them barbarians and all sorts of other insults. The ancient texts, not just the medieval ones, seem to be confirmed once more.

rothaer

09-10-2022, 11:23 PM

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:06 AM

The ancient Macedonians seem to be kin to Illyrians and not like Ionic Greeks. It's no wonder the latter were hostile to them, calling them barbarians and all sorts of other insults. The ancient texts, not just the medieval ones, seem to be confirmed once more.

It's a proto Greek speaking area. Can't change archaelogical facts - Ionic Greeks didn't even speak Greek they can be as hostile as they want but Macedonians and Spartans and many others never adopted their degenerate democratic political ideals until less than 50 years ago in its 3000 year civilization history. Illyrians and Thracians are fringe Greeks anyway and probably spoke more Greek than Ionic Greeks.

Dušan

09-11-2022, 12:41 AM

I passed through Kosovo twice this summer. It is wide and flat, totally different that northern and southern Albania where roads are cut into the mountains. For example mount Gjalica near Kukës is spectacularly huge and also mountains near Gjirokastër. In Kosovo i had impression as i was passing through Vojvodina.

Harsh mountain topography of Albania is ideal for keeping isolated language.

Kosovo and Metohija plains are completely opposite.
Their tame landscape is very Slavic habitat.

Varda

09-11-2022, 05:04 AM

Harsh mountain topography of Albania is ideal for keeping isolated language.

Kosovo and Metohija plains are completely opposite.
Their tame landscape is very Slavic habitat.

Illyrians were inhabitants of modern Albania before Romans, and Illyrian origin of Albanians is debunked by genetic. Their E-V13 and most of R1b is of East Balkanic origin. J2b2-M241 among Albanians is from Romance speaking people of Illyrians origin of modern Albania who are assimilated by Albanian migrants (E-V13 and some R1b) from Bulgaria who came in the middle age. Proto-Albanians were people from which came Albanian language and they were for sure of East Balkanic/Thracian origin. Albanian language is satem, and Illyrian was centum. Non-Illyrian and East Balkanic origin of Albanian language also indicated similarity of Albanian with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian and Meglenitic) and lack of similarities with Dalmatian (language of romanized Illyrians). Latin influence in Albanian language is mostly of East Romance origin, and in East Romance languages exist Albanian substrate.

Albania has significant amount of toponyms of Slavic origin, and in the past their number was even higher but many are changed or albanized. Slavic toponyms exist in mountain parts of Albania as well, not only in the plains and valleys.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=115412&d=1662872871

kingmob

09-11-2022, 05:31 AM

It's a proto Greek speaking area. Can't change archaelogical facts - Ionic Greeks didn't even speak Greek they can be as hostile as they want but Macedonians and Spartans and many others never adopted their degenerate democratic political ideals until less than 50 years ago in its 3000 year civilization history. Illyrians and Thracians are fringe Greeks anyway and probably spoke more Greek than Ionic Greeks.

:lol::lol::lol:

Everything that is referred to as 'ancient Greek' civ is basically Ionic, art, science, architecture, etc., the others produced nothing of comparable note and managed to get completely linguistically annihilated by the time of the Macedonian Hellenistic expansion, who also got Ionicised, by choice, I might add.

Modern Greek, you know, the language you, as a retarded diaspora, can barely speak and understand is a late Ionic derivative.

Ladies and gents, this what an extreme case of cognitive dissonance looks like.

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 06:50 AM

:lol::lol::lol:

Everything that is referred to as 'ancient Greek' civ is basically Ionic, art, science, architecture, etc., the others produced nothing of comparable note and managed to get completely linguistically annihilated by the time of the Macedonian Hellenistic expansion, who also got Ionicised, by choice, I might add.

Modern Greek, you know, the language you, as a retarded diaspora, can barely speak and understand is a late Ionic derivative.

Ladies and gents, this what an extreme case of cognitive dissonance looks like.

We won the war - end of story. Bow to your superiors - today and forever.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Peloponnesian_war_alliances_431_BC.png

MandM

09-11-2022, 08:09 AM

I passed through Kosovo twice this summer. It is wide and flat, totally different that northern and southern Albania where roads are cut into the mountains. For example mount Gjalica near Kukës is spectacularly huge and also mountains near Gjirokastër. In Kosovo i had impression as i was passing through Vojvodina.

Never been there but if you read Wikipedia it says that
"Most of the country is mountainous and hilly"??

Varda

09-11-2022, 08:38 AM

Never been there but if you read Wikipedia it says that
"Most of the country is mountainous and hilly"??

In Kosovo there is no impression that you are in mountain area. Because Kosovo is mostly flat (plateau) and mountains are visible on the horizon pretty far away. On the other hand in Albania (except in the part from Durrës to Vlorë where are plains) mountains are very close to the roads which are cut into them. In Kosovo (and Metohija) high mountains are on the rims at the borders with Macedonia, Albania and Montenegro.
https://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/europe/Kosovo-physical-map.gif

Dušan

09-11-2022, 08:49 AM

Never been there but if you read Wikipedia it says that
"Most of the country is mountainous and hilly"??

Mountains are on edges.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Kosovo_map-en.svg/1200px-Kosovo_map-en.svg.png

Most of area is like this.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Kosovo_plain.jpg

https://mapio.net/images-p/120751922.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/n4DXc9ENV3U/maxresdefault.jpg

Dušan

09-11-2022, 09:02 AM

Leto

09-11-2022, 09:05 AM

The Albanians are often thought to be the most autochthonous people in the Balkans (leaving aside the ignorant belief they are some kind of Turks because of Islam).

vbnetkhio

09-11-2022, 09:17 AM

You should keep quiet considering ancient Macedonian samples we got in this paper were Illyrian-like and not really different from Iron Age Albania.

They also share no Y-DNA with ancient Greeks. Those are most likely Paeonians, and not Macedonians.

The real Macedonians were in northern Greece, and spoke a language closely related to Greek, they should have related Y-DNA at least. Their autosomal could still be more northern.

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 10:17 AM

They also share no Y-DNA with ancient Greeks. Those are most likely Paeonians, and not Macedonians.

The real Macedonians were in northern Greece, and spoke a language closely related to Greek, they should have related Y-DNA at least. Their autosomal could still be more northern.

lol - straight from a Slav university

Varda

09-11-2022, 10:46 AM

---

An examples of some SW Slavs who carry 'Illyrian' J2b2-M241 https://i.ibb.co/61CSJLK/IMG-20220803-201115.jpg

^^
17 Čelić - Bosniak from Bosnia
18 Prodanović - Serb from Irig (Syrmia)
19 Nižetić - Croatian from island Brač (Dalmatia)
20 Taljanović - Muslim (Bosniak?) from Podgorica (Montenegro)
21 Kovač - Croatian from Livno (Bosnia)
22 Jakovčević - Croatian somewhere from Croatia

This guy is Illyrian from Illyrian Brač and Spalato (Split) :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Nižetić

https://youtu.be/EjhjcwQa2Vw

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 10:55 AM

The Albanians are often thought to be the most autochthonous people in the Balkans (leaving aside the ignorant belief they are some kind of Turks because of Islam).

Maybe so - but we also must recognise why they were never mentioned in De Administrando Imperio.

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 11:02 AM

E-V13 is east Balkanic + Carpathian haplogroup. It’s clear that Albanians got that from their Daco-Thracian side.

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 11:23 AM

E-V13 is east Balkanic + Carpathian haplogroup. It’s clear that Albanians got that from their Daco-Thracian side.

Really so why have scholars stated something totally separate if it was this clear to the great unwashed?

Glauk

09-11-2022, 11:33 AM

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 11:38 AM

Lol, so ev13 greek islanders are what, dacian colonisers?

So the serbian myth that illyrians and thracian were blonde two meters fair people is all bullshit?

Are serbs convinced now? Do they still believe in their caucasian fairytales

Oh it gets even more ludicrous they even said in this thread or they have no idea what they're talking about as usual and just being pitiful idiots that Magna Graecia was colonised by modern Vlachs.

MandM

09-11-2022, 11:40 AM

Really so why have scholars stated something totally separate if it was this clear to the great unwashed?

Thats becouse illyrians lived in todays albania among other places at they assumed that Albanians were from them becouse of that, but now DNA evidence show that the Albanians with E-V13 are from East Balkan, does it really do any diffrence in your everyday life if its thracian or Illyrian, your are all still paleobalkan

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 11:42 AM

Thats becouse illyrians lived in todays albania among other places at they assumed that Albanians were from them becouse of that, but now DNA evidence show that the Albanians with E-V13 are from East Balkan, does it really do any diffrence in your everyday life if its thracian or Illyrian, your are all still paleobalkan

Facts matter - not nonsense.

Especially in my backyard and in my home country. We are not all Paleobalkan. Only some of you are.

Glauk

09-11-2022, 11:43 AM

Oh it gets even more ludicrous they even said in this thread or they have no idea what they're talking about as usual and just being pitiful idiots that Magna Graecia was colonised by modern Vlachs.

Romanians are romanised slavs, bulgarians and macedonins are slavicised vlachs, greeks helenised vlach, albanians are albanised vlach…

We are all vlach:cool:

kingmob

09-11-2022, 11:46 AM

We won the war - end of story. Bow to your superiors - today and forever.

"We" ? What do you have to do with the Doric speakers? You are a medieval Bulgarian transplant. Learn your place, shepherd boy.

As for the Dorics, they won the war then proceeded to be linguistically annihilated, good job, rofl.

MandM

09-11-2022, 11:49 AM

Facts matter - not nonsense.

Especially in my backyard and in my home country. We are not all Paleobalkan. Only some of you are.

Well the fact at the moment show that the Albanians with E-V13 are from eastbalkan, it could change in the future, but for now we have to go with what we have

MandM

09-11-2022, 11:50 AM

Romanians are romanised slavs, bulgarians and macedonins are slavicised vlachs, greeks helenised vlach, albanians are albanised vlach…

We are all vlach:cool:

Yeeees... yeeeeeeeeesssssss:thumb001:

Glauk

09-11-2022, 11:51 AM

Well the fact at the moment show that the Albanians with E-V13 are from eastbalkan, it could change in the future, but for now we have to go with what we have

The majority of ghegh Albanians having e haplogroup is just an bottleneck effect

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 11:53 AM

"We" ? What do you have to do with the Doric speakers? You are a medieval Bulgarian transplant. Learn your place, shepherd boy.

As for the Dorics, they won the war then proceeded to be linguistically annihilated, good job, rofl.

Doric speakers came from here. Not Africa and especially not Persia. Indoeuropean trail to its final destination backed by archaeological evidence. You CHG Blockhead. You have not one logic bone in your body to have a Hellenic gene.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 11:55 AM

Well the fact at the moment show that the Albanians with E-V13 are from eastbalkan, it could change in the future, but for now we have to go with what we have

People need to learn the difference between frequency and variance. It really could be the difference between getting employed or not and the difference of a promotion or not.

https://i.imgur.com/4naulx9.png

Glauk

09-11-2022, 11:56 AM

How would someone avoid Romanisation and keep language in that area?
No way.

And Roman Ulpiana was among the largest settlements in the Balkans of the late antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulpiana

Albos were far away of that area.

Do you realise that 60% of albanian vocabulary is of latin origin from 3 different layers?(clasical latin, late latin, medieval latin)

kingmob

09-11-2022, 11:59 AM

Doric speakers came from here. Not Africa and especially not Persia. Indoeuropean trail to its final destination backed by archaeological evidence. You CHG Blockhead. You have not one logic bone in your body to have a Hellenic gene.

What do Karakachans have to do with the map you posted, you imbecile?

Their first mention is in early 1830s and they are referred to as bandit shepherds by the authorities. WTF they have to do with the ancient Dorics?

Newsflash, our real ancestors, the eastern Romans put all the 'ethnic' ancient Greeks to the sword by the 960s.

But, by all means, we are all dying to see a true Doric R1b clade like yours, why don't you post a screenie and enlighten us.

You don't want the whole forum to think you're some sort of "Doric" chicken-shit, do you?

:lol::lol::lol:

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 12:00 PM

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 12:01 PM

Really so why have scholars stated something totally separate if it was this clear to the great unwashed?

Are there any Bronze Age E-V13 samples in Greece?

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:01 PM

What do Karakachans have to do with the map you posted, you imbecile?

Their first mention is in early 1830s and they are referred to as bandit shepherds by the authorities. WTF they have to do with the ancient Dorics?

Newsflash, our real ancestors, the eastern Romans put all the 'ethnic' ancient Greeks to the sword by the 960s.

But, by all means, we are all dying to see a true Doric R1b clade like yours, why don't you post a screenie and enlighten us.

You don't want the whole forum to think you're some sort of "Doric" chicken-shit, do you?

:lol::lol::lol:

Only Greeks are logical you are an outright bonehead trying to play smart. Probably an unemployed bum.

Glauk

09-11-2022, 12:01 PM

Thracians and Illyrians were two meter tall Dinarids. Not blondes.

In the balkans it’s the opposite those with slavic genes are tall those wtih balkan genes are short

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:03 PM

Are there any Bronze Age E-V13 samples in Greece?

Ask Luzca Cavalli Sforza, Ornella Semino and Vincenza Battaglia - but they're just subhumans that don't fit in your weird little fantasies.

kingmob

09-11-2022, 12:08 PM

Only Greeks are logical you are an outright bonehead trying to play smart. Probably an unemployed bum.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/45cknQt6CymvlkwLci/giphy.gif

kingmob

09-11-2022, 12:10 PM

Are there any Bronze Age E-V13 samples in Greece?

They are top secret, only privy to catgeorge and the likes, just ask "Luzca Cavalli Sforza, Ornella Semino and Vincenza Battaglia" from 2003, they told him all about it.

It's true.

:lol::lol::lol:

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 12:11 PM

In the balkans it’s the opposite those with slavic genes are tall those wtih balkan genes are short

Depends on the phenotype, there isn’t only one native Balkan phenotype. Dinarids are tall, Kosovo average height is some of the tallest in Europe, Montenegrins who are more Balkan shifted are the tallest in balkans. Not my fault you probably got the east med genes and not dinarid lmao

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 12:14 PM

Ask Luzca Cavalli Sforza, Ornella Semino and Vincenza Battaglia - but they're just subhumans that don't fit in your weird little fantasies.

Lol there is nobody to ask if there are it would be easy to just link them. There aren’t though. Because E-V13 origin is with Gava culture(direct ancestor to thracians). Carpathian centered culture. There probably was E-V13 in Greece prior to that but those are dead end lineages most likely

TheForeigner

09-11-2022, 12:14 PM

Meh, it's normal they would be even less than half Illyrian. I mean, it's not even known for sure if their language is of Thacian or Illyrian origin. The language question would be more interesting to solve, as they have some vocabulary in common with Romanian and maybe that would also show us who some of Romanians' ancestors are. According to one theory, even Albanians like Romanians are descended (partly I suppose) from Dacians.

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:15 PM

https://media4.giphy.com/media/45cknQt6CymvlkwLci/giphy.gif

Logical Greeks that made a mark on the planet with an appropriate Hellenic gene not CHG monstrosity that has a gene-wave and logic step that resembles communist Yugoslavs. No wonder Thessaloniki is such a shithole.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Caratheodory_%28cropped%29.jpg

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/openbook/12884/xhtml/images/p2001dcd4g54001.jpg

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:17 PM

Lol there is nobody to ask if there are it would be easy to just link them. There aren’t though. Because E-V13 origin is with Gava culture(direct ancestor to thracians). Carpathian centered culture. There probably was E-V13 in Greece prior to that but those are dead end lineages most likely

lol - go back to sleep and dont reply to me in future.

kingmob

09-11-2022, 12:20 PM

Logical Greeks that made a mark on the planet with an appropriate Hellenic gene not CHG monstrosity that has a gene-wave and logic step that resembles communist Yugoslavs. No wonder Thessaloniki is such a shithole.

The way this thread is going, the next post of yours will be pics of your children again, just because facts and arguments not going your way.

Time to stop, man, you've subjected yourself to public humiliation long enough.

Varda

09-11-2022, 12:20 PM

Depends on the phenotype, there isn’t only one native Balkan phenotype. Dinarids are tall, Kosovo average height is some of the tallest in Europe, Montenegrins who are more Balkan shifted are the tallest in balkans. Not my fault you probably got the east med genes and not dinarid lmao

The tallest Montenegrins are from western Montenegro historically known as Old Herzegovina. In that part of Montenegro I2 is higher than national average, I1 and N-P189.2 are high, and E-V13 is quite bellow average.
People from region of Montenegro with the highest E-V13 in country known as Brda are shorter than Old Herzegovinians on average.

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:22 PM

The way this thread is going, the next post of yours will be pics of your children again, just because facts and arguments not going your way.

Time to stop, man, you've subjected yourself to public humiliation long enough.

You wish blockhead - you keep posting that Magna Graecia was colonised by modern Vlachs you unemployed bum. Not even intelligent enough to be a smartass - just a blockhead.

kingmob

09-11-2022, 12:26 PM

unemployed bum.

Not that anyone cares or it's anyone's business, but I am one of those Greeks that has secured a livelihood for my family in actual Greece, I didn't have to run away like a migrant to the other side of the planet, like you. Now off you go to serve your slop to your Anglo masters, wog boy.

Glauk

09-11-2022, 12:26 PM

Lol there is nobody to ask if there are it would be easy to just link them. There aren’t though. Because E-V13 origin is with Gava culture(direct ancestor to thracians). Carpathian centered culture. There probably was E-V13 in Greece prior to that but those are dead end lineages most likely

Lol dude sputh albanian have the lowest slavic input in them and the highest paleo-balkan and are the shortest, kosovars have between 10-35 slavic input depending on the region

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:29 PM

Not that anyone cares or it's anyone's business, but I am one of those Greeks that has secured a livelihood for my family in actual Greece, I didn't have to run away like a migrant to the other side of the planet, like you. Now off you go to serve your slop to your Anglo masters, wog boy.

I didnt migrate to Australia - I dont even have Australian citizenship. I was sent abroad to study not migrate. You are an unemployed bum who are you kidding.

kingmob

09-11-2022, 12:30 PM

I didnt migrate to Australia - I dont even have Australian citizenship. I was sent abroad to study not migrate. You are an unemployed bum who are you kidding.

Rofl, you can't even string two sentences together in Greek, you simpleton.

Who am I kidding?

Who are you kidding, really?

Glauk

09-11-2022, 12:31 PM

Depends on the phenotype, there isn’t only one native Balkan phenotype. Dinarids are tall, Kosovo average height is some of the tallest in Europe, Montenegrins who are more Balkan shifted are the tallest in balkans. Not my fault you probably got the east med genes and not dinarid lmao

Im 1,90m dinaro-alpine,(you have my pictures here on TA)albanins are one of the most dinaric people in the balkans more then any other nation, dude i have seen old people with pure dinaric features being 1,70 m, like i said height was brought by slavs, why aren’t greeks, romanians and aroamnians so tall the ?

Glauk

09-11-2022, 12:32 PM

Lol dude sputh albanian has the lowest slavic input in them and the highest paleo-balkan and are the shortest, kosovars have between 10-35 slavic input depending on the region

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:32 PM

Rofl, you can't even string two sentences together in Greek, you simpleton.

Who am I kidding?

Who are you kidding, really?

Pffft - so says the bum.

kingmob

09-11-2022, 12:43 PM

Pffft - so says the bum.

Famous quotes of 35 year old "students".

:icon_lol:

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 12:47 PM

Lol dude sputh albanian have the lowest slavic input in them and the highest paleo-balkan and are the shortest, kosovars have between 10-35 slavic input depending on the region

Is dinarid a short or tall phenotype? Is dinarid Slavic or Balkan? Simply comes down to these two questions

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 12:50 PM

Famous quotes of 35 year old "students".

:icon_lol:

But you have displayed the logic of Yugoslavs not me so I suggest you change your ethnicity to something more appropriate.

CommonSense

09-11-2022, 12:59 PM

There's no room for speculation anymore, now that these samples have been analyzed and published. Both genetic and linguistic evidence place the ethnogenesis of the Albanians somewhere in the central-eastern part of the Balkans.

catgeorge

09-11-2022, 01:19 PM

It's funny how people make claims with such confidence despite their people lack the historical credibility to define such outcomes. Just saying.

Varda

09-11-2022, 02:58 PM

The tallest Montenegrins are from western Montenegro historically known as Old Herzegovina. In that part of Montenegro I2 is higher than national average, I1 and N-P189.2 are high, and E-V13 is quite bellow average.
People from region of Montenegro with the highest E-V13 in country known as Brda are shorter than Old Herzegovinians on average.

The tallest men in Montenegro are from Šavnik municipality with 185.5 cm on average (Montenegrin average is 183 cm) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šavnik
Šavnik belong to Old Herzegovina - marked with red color https://i.ibb.co/7CS7Gd2/800px-Old-Herzegovina-in-Montenegro-svg-1.png

Results in the public base at "Serbian DNA" are sorted by regions, and there Old Herzegovina among others.

Old Herzegovina - 177 samples
I2 (68) = 38.4%
J2 (23) = 13%
I1 (22) = 12.4%
E (20) = 11.3%
N (18) = 10.1%
R1a (12) = 6.8%
R1b (5) = 2.8%
L (5) = 2.8%
G (3) = 1.7%
J1 (1) = 0.6%

Kolašin and neighboring Žabljak municipality are strongholds of I1 in Dinaric Alps, because they belong to the territory of Drobnjak clan who is I1-FGC22045.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 03:28 PM

The tallest men in Montenegro are from Šavnik municipality with 185.5 cm on average (Montenegrin average is 183 cm) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šavnik
Šavnik belong to Old Herzegovina - marked with red color https://i.ibb.co/7CS7Gd2/800px-Old-Herzegovina-in-Montenegro-svg-1.png

Results in the public base at "Serbian DNA" are sorted by regions, and there Old Herzegovina among others.

Old Herzegovina - 177 samples
I2 (68) = 38.4%
J2 (23) = 13%
I1 (22) = 12.4%
E (20) = 11.3%
N (18) = 10.1%
R1a (12) = 6.8%
R1b (5) = 2.8%
L (5) = 2.8%
G (3) = 1.7%
J1 (1) = 0.6%

Kolašin and neighboring Žabljak municipality are strongholds of I1 in Dinaric Alps, because they belong to the territory of Drobnjak clan who is I1-FGC22045.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/

Which regions are E-V13 heavy in Montenegro?

Varda

09-11-2022, 03:52 PM

Which regions are E-V13 heavy in Montenegro?

Brda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brda_(Montenegro)

Kuči, Vasojevići and Bjelopavlići are E-V13 and they are Brda tribes. About 3/4 of total E-V13 in Montenegro came from these 3 tribes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuči_(tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasojevići
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelopavlići

They have different branches of E-V13. Kuči are E-BY165837, Vasojevići are E-Y126722, and Bjelopavlići are E-Z13591.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y126722/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z13591/

whitecuban

09-11-2022, 04:07 PM

Brda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brda_(Montenegro)

Kuči, Vasojevići and Bjelopavlići are E-V13 and they are Brda tribes. About 3/4 of total E-V13 in Montenegro came from these 3 tribes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuči_(tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasojevići
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelopavlići

They have different branches of E-V13. Kuči are E-BY165837, Vasojevići are E-Y126722, and Bjelopavlići are E-Z13591.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y126722/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z13591/

All these tribes have Albanian origin?

Varda

09-11-2022, 04:11 PM

All these tribes have Albanian origin?

No. Albanian mythomans write nonsense on Wikipedia. They are quite distant from Albanian E-V13.

Varda

09-11-2022, 04:44 PM

The Albanians are often thought to be the most autochthonous people in the Balkans (leaving aside the ignorant belief they are some kind of Turks because of Islam).

xD

https://youtu.be/VLfOrqVO9lo

Renekton

09-11-2022, 05:11 PM

:wacko::wacko::wacko:

Glauk

09-11-2022, 07:08 PM

xD

https://youtu.be/VLfOrqVO9lo

You would sell your own mother for that cap and those trousers so you can cal yourself we waz tribalz and shiet

Ylla

09-12-2022, 11:06 AM

Ajeje Brazorf

09-12-2022, 12:36 PM

I wonder if there is pigmentation data available? Thracians are stereotyped as red haired and blue eyed, would be interesting to see if they carried those genes but they were most probably uniformly dark haired and eyed.

<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
ID
Population
Eye Color
Hair Color (detailed)
Skin Pigmentation
Yfull 8.09

I19500
BGR_Anc
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
E-BY14160

I19481
BGR_Diamandievo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I5769
BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_IA
Blue
Brown
Intermediate
NA

I19490
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-M78

I19493
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I19494
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-L618

I19495
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-L618

I19497
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I20180
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Blue
Brown
Intermediate
E-BY3880

I20181
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
E-CTS1273

I20183
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
E-BY3880

I20184
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
NA

I20185
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
E-BY3880

I20186
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Pale
R-Z93

I15844
BGR_Stambolovo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I19487
BGR_Svilengrad_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-M78

I19488
BGR_Svilengrad_IA_outlier
NA
NA
NA
NA

</tbody>

whitecuban

09-12-2022, 12:52 PM

<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
ID
Population
Eye Color
Hair Color (detailed)
Skin Pigmentation
Yfull 8.09

I19500
BGR_Anc
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
E-BY14160

I19481
BGR_Diamandievo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I5769
BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_IA
Blue
Brown
Intermediate
NA

I19490
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-M78

I19493
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I19494
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-L618

I19495
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-L618

I19497
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I20180
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Blue
Brown
Intermediate
E-BY3880

I20181
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
E-CTS1273

I20183
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
E-BY3880

I20184
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
NA

I20185
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Intermediate
E-BY3880

I20186
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
Brown
Brown
Pale
R-Z93

I15844
BGR_Stambolovo_IA
NA
NA
NA
NA

I19487
BGR_Svilengrad_IA
NA
NA
NA
E-M78

I19488
BGR_Svilengrad_IA_outlier
NA
NA
NA
NA

</tbody>

The first one was dark to black? Lmao. WE WUZZZ NEGUSS

Ajeje Brazorf

09-12-2022, 02:41 PM

The first one was dark to black? Lmao. WE WUZZZ NEGUSS

It is not clear what they mean by "DarkToBlack". More samples with the same feature:

<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
ID
Population
Eye Color
Hair Color (detailed)
Skin Pigmentation
Yfull 8.09

I14601
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-A12332

I18164
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I1635
ARM_Kalavan_KuraAraxes_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-V1274

I19341
ARM_Karashamb_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
I-Y16649

I1656
ARM_Katnaghbiur1_MBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I17182
ARM_Keti_EIA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I18167
ARM_Lhashen_LBA
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I15749
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I18467
ARM_Noratus_LBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
NA

I17181
ARM_Pijut_Urartian
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I19500
BGR_Anc
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
E-BY14160

I2424
BGR_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I19456
BGR_TellKran_EBA
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
J-PF5252

I3590
DEU_Bell_Beaker
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5524
DEU_Bell_Beaker
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I18072
HRV_Bezdanjača_BA
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
R-Y14088

I5071
HRV_Impressa_EN
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I1875
HRV_Mes_HG
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I4233_all
IRN_Hasanlu_IA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
L-Y28524

I1662
IRN_Seh_Gabi_ChL
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
J-PF5008

I1665
IRN_Seh_Gabi_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I11456
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I11474
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Y25795

I11476
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I11478
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Y17404

I2923
IRN_TepeHissar_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
L-L595

I10268
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
J-Y3081

I10771
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I2195
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
J-Z1865

I10769
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA_brother.I10770
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
E-Y6720

I1165
ISR_ChL
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
T-CTS2214

I3965
ISR_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z27681

R1014.SG
ITA_C.SG
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
H-P96

I10372
ITA_Sicily_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I1705
JOR_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z2324

I6460
JOR_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Y2919

I6464
JOR_LBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
J-Z2331

I6567
JOR_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I6571
JOR_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

QED-12.SG
LBN_Rom
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
NA

I14157
ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I14161
ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
G-PF3148

I5272
RUS_Afanasievo
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

RK4001
RUS_Catacomb
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-M12149

SA6003
RUS_Catacomb
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
R-Z2103

SA6001
RUS_Steppe_Maykop
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I0429
RUS_Yamnaya_Samara_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-Y20993

I0444
RUS_Yamnaya_Samara_EBA
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
R-Y20993

Vim2b.SG
SRB_Gepidian_Mdv
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-M335

I4873
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I4881_published
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
I-Z161

I4916
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-L754

I4917
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5234
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5240
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-L754

I5242
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5244
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5402
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
I-Z161

I5772
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
R-L754

I5241
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG_daughter_I5236
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I20570
TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Çapalıbağ_Mdv
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I20140
TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz_brother.I20141
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
R-S1161

CBT001
TUR_C_ÇamlıbelTarlası_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

CBT010
TUR_C_ÇamlıbelTarlası_ChL
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

CBT002
TUR_C_ÇamlıbelTarlası_ChL_1d.rel.CBT016.CBT017
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I3917_all
TUR_C_Gordion_Anc
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

ART005
TUR_E_Arslantepe_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

ART001
TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z6264

I19613
TUR_E_Van_Urartian
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

ALA002
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-FGC4745

ALA015
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
T-L208

ALA016
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

ALA037
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

KRD001
TUR_Hatay_TellKurdu_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
H-Y21618

I1098
TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I0854
TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N_sister.of.I0736
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I14734
TUR_SE_Batman_Anc
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
L-L595

I14790
TUR_SE_Kilis_Byz_mother.or.daughter.I14791
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I14794
TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I14761
TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I14788
TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
T-CTS11451

I4478
TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA_sibling.I4481
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z447

</tbody>

MandM

09-12-2022, 02:43 PM

I wonder if there is pigmentation data available? Thracians are stereotyped as red haired and blue eyed, would be interesting to see if they carried those genes but they were most probably uniformly dark haired and eyed.

I read also that greeks depicted them as red hair, but experts say that they would more resemble Greeks then anything else

whitecuban

09-12-2022, 02:55 PM

It is not clear what they mean by "DarkToBlack". More samples with the same feature:

<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
ID
Population
Eye Color
Hair Color (detailed)
Skin Pigmentation
Yfull 8.09

I14601
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-A12332

I18164
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I1635
ARM_Kalavan_KuraAraxes_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-V1274

I19341
ARM_Karashamb_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
I-Y16649

I1656
ARM_Katnaghbiur1_MBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I17182
ARM_Keti_EIA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I18167
ARM_Lhashen_LBA
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I15749
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I18467
ARM_Noratus_LBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
NA

I17181
ARM_Pijut_Urartian
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I19500
BGR_Anc
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
E-BY14160

I2424
BGR_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I19456
BGR_TellKran_EBA
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
J-PF5252

I3590
DEU_Bell_Beaker
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5524
DEU_Bell_Beaker
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I18072
HRV_Bezdanjača_BA
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
R-Y14088

I5071
HRV_Impressa_EN
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I1875
HRV_Mes_HG
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I4233_all
IRN_Hasanlu_IA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
L-Y28524

I1662
IRN_Seh_Gabi_ChL
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
J-PF5008

I1665
IRN_Seh_Gabi_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I11456
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I11474
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Y25795

I11476
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I11478
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Y17404

I2923
IRN_TepeHissar_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
L-L595

I10268
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
J-Y3081

I10771
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I2195
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
J-Z1865

I10769
ISR_Canaanite_MLBA_brother.I10770
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
E-Y6720

I1165
ISR_ChL
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
T-CTS2214

I3965
ISR_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z27681

R1014.SG
ITA_C.SG
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
H-P96

I10372
ITA_Sicily_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I1705
JOR_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z2324

I6460
JOR_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Y2919

I6464
JOR_LBA
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
J-Z2331

I6567
JOR_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I6571
JOR_LBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

QED-12.SG
LBN_Rom
NA
NA
DarkToBlack
NA

I14157
ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I14161
ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
G-PF3148

I5272
RUS_Afanasievo
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

RK4001
RUS_Catacomb
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-M12149

SA6003
RUS_Catacomb
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
R-Z2103

SA6001
RUS_Steppe_Maykop
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I0429
RUS_Yamnaya_Samara_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-Y20993

I0444
RUS_Yamnaya_Samara_EBA
Brown
NA
DarkToBlack
R-Y20993

Vim2b.SG
SRB_Gepidian_Mdv
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-M335

I4873
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I4881_published
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
I-Z161

I4916
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-L754

I4917
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5234
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5240
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
R-L754

I5242
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5244
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I5402
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
I-Z161

I5772
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
R-L754

I5241
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG_daughter_I5236
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I20570
TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Çapalıbağ_Mdv
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I20140
TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz_brother.I20141
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
R-S1161

CBT001
TUR_C_ÇamlıbelTarlası_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

CBT010
TUR_C_ÇamlıbelTarlası_ChL
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

CBT002
TUR_C_ÇamlıbelTarlası_ChL_1d.rel.CBT016.CBT017
NA
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I3917_all
TUR_C_Gordion_Anc
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

ART005
TUR_E_Arslantepe_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

ART001
TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z6264

I19613
TUR_E_Van_Urartian
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

ALA002
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-FGC4745

ALA015
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
T-L208

ALA016
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

ALA037
TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

KRD001
TUR_Hatay_TellKurdu_ChL
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
H-Y21618

I1098
TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I0854
TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N_sister.of.I0736
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I14734
TUR_SE_Batman_Anc
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
L-L595

I14790
TUR_SE_Kilis_Byz_mother.or.daughter.I14791
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I14794
TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A
Brown
Brown
DarkToBlack
NA

I14761
TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
NA

I14788
TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
T-CTS11451

I4478
TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA_sibling.I4481
Brown
Black
DarkToBlack
J-Z447

</tbody>

Probably means brown skinned and intermediate is tan or what southern euros have today.

Ajeje Brazorf

09-13-2022, 03:18 PM

BA/IA Balkanians invented time travel xD

Distance to: MNE_IA:I13170
0.02600271 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.03019986 Moldovan_o
0.03042446 Hungarian
0.03133951 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03140300 Croatian

Distance to: HRV_Bezdanjaca_BA:I18721
0.02501747 Croatian
0.02646716 Bosnian
0.02683697 Slovenian
0.02837865 Hungarian
0.02884783 Moldovan

Distance to: HRV_Bezdanjaca_BA:I18723
0.03544536 Bosnian
0.03790431 Croatian
0.03831225 Montenegrin
0.04031039 Moldovan
0.04046110 Serbian

Distance to: HRV_MBA_LBA:I18719
0.03066564 Serbian
0.03150414 Romanian
0.03175501 Montenegrin
0.03334433 Bulgarian
0.03346083 Macedonian

Distance to: SRB_IA:I16814
0.02545241 Italian_Northeast
0.02607788 Italian_Veneto
0.02761023 Swiss_Italian
0.02809269 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02879321 Bulgarian

Ajeje Brazorf

09-13-2022, 03:41 PM

I find it interesting how Mycenaeans are closer to IA Bulgarians than to IA Macedonians.

Global25 Europe1 PCA with LBA/IA Balkanians and Greeks, outliers excluded.

https://i.imgur.com/4Mld0U5.png

Rizza

09-15-2022, 12:41 PM

After reading unendable pages of balkan discussion across the web, trying to understand how the fuck am i J2b2, i am pretty sure albanian ethnicity formed further east of the west balkans , and they are brothers with the E-v13 vlachs .Theyr language in my understanding, after the release of the last paper, is also not of Illiyrian / Bell beaker origin like many albos are presuming with all this Y DNA fuss.

Some more ancient samples from Albania:

Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16251
1.07484410 Albanians_Montenegro
1.07831303 Albanian_Kosovo
1.14188940 Albanian_north
1.14271966 GR_Thesalloniki
1.17530993 Albanian_south
1.20025960 IT_Friuli
1.22644462 GR_Thrace
1.24474885 IT_Marche
1.26894943 GR_Central
1.27190658 GR_Macedonia

Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_1d.rel.I16256_I17633
2.17016013 Albanian_Kosovo
2.17512344 IT_Ladinia
2.18195216 Albanians_Montenegro
2.18261172 IT_Veneto
2.20123659 IT_Trentino
2.20877324 IT_Piedmont
2.24590834 Moldova_sud
2.24797207 Albanian_north
2.26309665 IT_Friuli
2.28406401 Tirol

1.38996490 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.40692595 IT_Toscania
1.45480085 IT_Marche
1.47499639 IT_Lazio
1.48542944 Albanian_south
1.49398528 Albanian_north
1.51249405 IT_Molise
1.51453737 FR_Corsica
1.53371901 Albanian_Kosovo

Sample found in Northern Macedonia:

Distance to: MKD_BA:I7231
0.02721903 Albanian

Samples found in Croatia:

Distance to: HRV_IA_I3313
1.41428962 IT_Veneto
1.51111193 IT_Aosta
1.53241280 Albanian_Kosovo
1.53417027 Albanian_north
1.53700296 IT_Friuli
1.55188512 IT_Piedmont
1.58708565 Albanians_Montenegro
1.61639078 Albanians_FYROM
1.62339206 IT_Lombardia
1.64073982 IT_Trentino

Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.02479983 Albanian

There is really no evidence. Vlachs are believed by many to of originated in the Western Balkans including Western Kosovo, Montenegro, Northern Albania etc, they were even mentioned living in Prizren in South-Western Kosovo right next to Northern Albania. Samples in Kosovo should be more or less the same as these from Northern Albania and Macedonia. The influence was also mostly Albanian into Romanian.

No evidence Thracians from Bulgaria ever played any kind of role in forming our people, it's nothing but a fringe theory that has no evidence and they even carried Y-DNA like R1a-Z93, totally non existant in Albanian population. Therefor they cannot be used to model Albanians obviously as it also scews the results. We already have 4 Illyrians with EV-13.

Jana

09-15-2022, 02:23 PM

Nope.

ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688,0.122929,0.161469,0.02489,-0.028101,0.028005,-0.015618,0.004935,0.001846,0.000409,0.019499,-0.000974,0.01139,-0.016799,-0.004266,-0.006786,-0.016441,-0.009518,0.004054,0.005028,-0.007253,-0.013601,0.009398,-0.005176,0.011086,-0.007065
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690,0.125205,0.149283,0.034318,-0.00646,0.029544,-0.005857,-0.001175,0.004846,-0.00225,0.019681,0.001461,0.002698,-0.020069,-0.006468,-0.003122,0.002121,0.001825,0.003167,0.002011,-0.002501,-0.007861,0.003462,0.005423,-0.004217,-0.005269
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692,0.125205,0.152329,0.025644,-0.010336,0.019388,0.001116,-0.008695,0.003461,0.006136,0.025878,0.007145,0.010 641,-0.018583,-0.00234,-0.011536,-0.006099,0.008605,0.00038,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.010981,-0.006183,-0.001479,0.012411,0.003113
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251,0.124067,0.144205,0.018102,-0.019703,0.025851,-0.003347,0.002115,0.008077,0.000205,0.022233,-0.000974,0.005095,-0.017096,-0.017753,-0.013301,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.003294,0.010182,-0.013006,-0.000125,0.005441,-0.007148,-0.001687,-0.004431
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253,0.130897,0.156392,0.034318,-0.010982,0.035083,-0.000279,0.002115,0.001846,0.0045,0.029158,0.00893 1,0.015436,-0.024083,-0.001927,-0.012893,0.000796,0.012647,0.008361,0.011816,-0.009505,-0.011355,-0.002349,-0.003944,0.008917,-0.007185
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254,0.120652,0.157407,0.039598,-0.006137,0.031698,-0.011992,0.00705,-0.014076,-0.011044,0.033896,-0.002761,0.001349,-0.018137,-0.005918,-0.010586,-0.007558,0.021774,0.00076,-0.009176,-0.013256,-0.006988,-0.003215,-0.010846,0.01446,-0.008382
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256,0.118376,0.151314,0.02489,-0.005491,0.034468,-0.001673,0.00188,-0.003231,0,0.018406,0.005359,-0.000599,-0.013379,-0.014863,-0.006107,0.013392,0.034943,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.010255,0.01148,0.005812,-0.00037,0.005181,-0.009101

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256

0.04250106 Swiss_Italian
0.04380569 Italian_Veneto
0.04618701 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04710777 Italian_Tuscany
0.04723999 Italian_Piedmont
0.04746880 Italian_Northeast
0.04873892 French_Provence
0.04875999 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04920106 Italian_Bergamo
0.04957710 Swiss_French
0.05065795 Rumelia_East
0.05092262 Spanish_Baleares
0.05096698 French_Corsica
0.05104265 Albanian
0.05144038 Spanish_Mallorca
0.05153682 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.05201386 Italian_Umbria
0.05346355 Spanish_Girona
0.05415521 Spanish_Penedes
0.05467043 Greek_Thessaly
0.05554777 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.05576071 Spanish_Eivissa
0.05596945 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.05609706 Greek_Achaea
0.05610767 Greek_Corinthia

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254

0.04732269 Italian_Bergamo
0.04849878 Italian_Piedmont
0.04853738 Italian_Veneto
0.04992935 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05039020 Italian_Northeast
0.05206174 Swiss_Italian
0.05208033 Italian_Lombardy
0.05262085 Italian_Tuscany
0.05309711 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.05342267 French_Corsica
0.05472650 Spanish_Mallorca
0.05485039 Spanish_Baleares
0.05487698 Albanian
0.05550170 French_Provence
0.05639041 Italian_Liguria
0.05651572 Greek_Thessaly
0.05717989 Italian_Umbria
0.05726693 Rumelia_East
0.05816147 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.05866141 Spanish_Eivissa
0.05891706 Spanish_Penedes
0.05911017 Spanish_Girona
0.05915493 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.05920728 Spanish_Menorca
0.05999291 Italian_Marche

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253

0.03283337 Italian_Bergamo
0.03437699 Italian_Veneto
0.03637630 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03812178 Italian_Piedmont
0.03864386 Italian_Northeast
0.03933206 Italian_Lombardy
0.04078850 French_Corsica
0.04087147 Swiss_Italian
0.04281563 Italian_Tuscany
0.04417635 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04430015 Spanish_Baleares
0.04484607 Albanian
0.04492772 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04529686 French_Provence
0.04649093 Greek_Thessaly
0.04748293 Spanish_Girona
0.04758896 Spanish_Menorca
0.04881688 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04892306 Swiss_French
0.04900851 Spanish_Penedes
0.04912527 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04921324 Italian_Liguria
0.04964106 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04996273 Spanish_Eivissa
0.05029426 Italian_Umbria

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251

0.02886532 Italian_Piedmont
0.02909987 Italian_Tuscany
0.02974394 Swiss_Italian
0.03237354 Italian_Bergamo
0.03361312 Italian_Umbria
0.03383140 Albanian
0.03386512 French_Corsica
0.03400007 Greek_Thessaly
0.03427858 Italian_Veneto
0.03503797 Italian_Marche
0.03591488 Italian_Lazio
0.03608747 Italian_Lombardy
0.03822531 Greek_Messenia
0.03823370 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03851080 Greek_Argolis
0.03851238 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03879957 Greek_Elis
0.03884742 Greek_Corinthia
0.03902879 Greek_Achaea
0.03909643 Italian_Molise
0.03928429 Greek_Macedonia
0.03969570 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03974908 Rumelia_East
0.03990751 Greek_Arcadia
0.04004780 Greek_West_Taygetos

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692

0.03132625 Italian_Bergamo
0.03134221 Swiss_Italian
0.03137717 Italian_Piedmont
0.03356377 Italian_Tuscany
0.03375936 Italian_Veneto
0.03379613 Greek_Thessaly
0.03490373 Italian_Lombardy
0.03606692 Albanian
0.03707327 Italian_Northeast
0.03795358 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03801065 French_Corsica
0.03826424 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03886443 Italian_Umbria
0.03958920 Greek_Macedonia
0.03994990 Italian_Liguria
0.04092867 Greek_Corinthia
0.04095702 Rumelia_East
0.04116055 Italian_Marche
0.04168828 Greek_Messenia
0.04206686 Greek_Argolis
0.04218243 Greek_Achaea
0.04272054 Greek_Elis
0.04317328 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.04375084 Greek_Arcadia
0.04456180 Greek_Peloponnese

Jana

09-15-2022, 02:25 PM

We already have 4 Illyrians with EV-13.

Which? There is one sample from Croatia and it carries a clade with no descendants.
Illyrians were obviously not E-V13. Sorry.

Jana

09-15-2022, 02:28 PM

it's nothing but a fringe theory that has no evidence and they even carried Y-DNA like R1a-Z93, totally non existant in Albanian population.

No. That Z-93 sample was extreme outlier that was genetically Sinhastra like. Perhaps a proto-Thracian fresh from the steppe.
Actual classical era Thracians from Iron Age were E-V13 heavy and new paper just showed that.

Rizza

09-15-2022, 02:43 PM

Which? There is one sample from Croatia and it carries a clade with no descendants.
Illyrians were obviously not E-V13. Sorry.

Yes, they most likely were and it reached a bottle neck effect later . We have already 4 samples.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16721/

I5724 -282 HRV_IA Sv. Križ Brdovečki Croatia E-Y16721 U5b1d1a

We also have E-L618 in Northern Macedonia

I10166 -300 MKD_Anc Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis North Macedonia E-L618

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

No need to say sorry, no genetic evidence that proves any of your theories. You claimed we are less than 50% Illyrian but it is certainly not what the genetic evidence shows, especially not if we actually add these Italian-Albanian or Albanian-like samples which puts Illyrian as absolute top match .

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285335-My-true-ancestry-com&p=7580005#post7580005

We also have Y-DNA R1b-L23.

The sample in the OP you posted gets a distance of 5 and is actually also not too far away from an Albanian . Obviously genetics from these kind of samples should be way more than 50% but adding Thracians and other genetically related type of native Balkan populations is going to scew the results but doesn't make the results genuine like you claim.

Jana

09-15-2022, 02:56 PM

Ok, you're a troll, I'll pass.

Rizza

09-15-2022, 03:00 PM

No. That Z-93 sample was extreme outlier that was genetically Sinhastra like. Perhaps a proto-Thracian fresh from the steppe.
Actual classical era Thracians from Iron Age were E-V13 heavy and new paper just showed that.

Nope, This one is a new sample that has been found apparently

I20186 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA Brown Brown Pale R-Z93

Does not seem to be the same sample actually . This one is from Andreevo while that other one was from somewhere else I believe Dimitovgrad or something. I have never seen this Y-DNA among any Albanians.

I also see E-L618 among some of these Thracians as the ones found in Northern Macedonia. Among some of these Thracians I have also seen some exotic E and some other exotic Y-DNA.

Since you seem to insists EV-13 is mainly Thracian and was spread by Thracians you do not seem to hold any theories of how it supposedly happened neither in Greece, Croatia or anywhere else.

Best case scenario it was spready by Indo-Europeans from the Steppes. Was a minor clade in Western Balkans among classical Illyrians, major among Thracians then reached a bottle neck in Greece, West Balkans etc. I'm not saying it was originally IE obviously but picked up but it's just a theory so don't quote me .

No, I certainly do not believe it was spread by any historical or classical Thracians.

I am actually surprised to see R-Z93 among these Thracians and not R1b-L23 .

Rizza

09-15-2022, 03:17 PM

Ok, you're a troll, I'll pass.

I am definitely not a troll but it's obvious you are a troll and even the Albanian members here called you out what you showed in the OP is clearly not a huge genetic change and it's obvious you don't understand these calculators nor how genetics work. Your thread is a 100% fail. I already posted some Albanian my true ancestry results here https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285335-My-true-ancestry-com&p=7580005&highlight=#post7580005

Illyrian samples from Northern Albania:

Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16251
1.07484410 Albanians_Montenegro
1.07831303 Albanian_Kosovo
1.14188940 Albanian_north
1.14271966 GR_Thesalloniki
1.17530993 Albanian_south
1.20025960 IT_Friuli
1.22644462 GR_Thrace
1.24474885 IT_Marche
1.26894943 GR_Central
1.27190658 GR_Macedonia

Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_1d.rel.I16256_I17633
2.17016013 Albanian_Kosovo
2.17512344 IT_Ladinia
2.18195216 Albanians_Montenegro
2.18261172 IT_Veneto
2.20123659 IT_Trentino
2.20877324 IT_Piedmont
2.24590834 Moldova_sud
2.24797207 Albanian_north
2.26309665 IT_Friuli
2.28406401 Tirol

Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16254
1.38996490 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.40692595 IT_Toscania
1.45480085 IT_Marche
1.47499639 IT_Lazio
1.48542944 Albanian_south
1.49398528 Albanian_north
1.51249405 IT_Molise
1.51453737 FR_Corsica
1.53371901 Albanian_Kosovo
1.54069327 GR_Ipeiros

Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I16253
1.57707919 IT_Lombardia
1.60222133 IT_Toscania
1.69901036 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.70666551 Albanians_FYROM
1.79720556 Albanian_south
1.82056761 Albanian_north

Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_I14692
1.29229025 IT_Toscania
1.29838966 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.33822026 IT_Liguria
1.43573303 IT_Lombardia
1.45826258 GR_Ipeiros
1.50588238 FR_Corsica
1.51392313 Swiss_Italian
1.52106062 IT_Trentino
1.53061001 Albanian_Kosovo
1.54144663 IT_Marche

Sample found in Northern Macedonia:

Distance to: MKD_BA:I7231
0.02721903 Albanian

Samples found in Croatia:

Distance to: HRV_IA_I3313
1.41428962 IT_Veneto
1.51111193 IT_Aosta
1.53241280 Albanian_Kosovo
1.53417027 Albanian_north
1.53700296 IT_Friuli
1.55188512 IT_Piedmont
1.58708565 Albanians_Montenegro
1.61639078 Albanians_FYROM
1.62339206 IT_Lombardia
1.64073982 IT_Trentino

Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.02479983 Albanian

Hilarious how you call me a troll when you have a limited knowledge of history and genetics. All your sources regarding history is all a bunch of copy paste from wikipedia. You're talking about Romanian homeland yet cannot pin point it. You seem to suggest as if samples in Kosovo will be so vastly different from these Illyrians or samples in Macedonia when they most likely wont.

You copy some images from other places regarding Albanian homeland , some of those areas that have been marked never had any historical Albanian population. Kosovo, especially Western Kosovo was pretty much Illyrian territory.

Rizza

09-15-2022, 03:42 PM

I don't neccessarily wanna bump your pseudo intellectual thread with your fringe theories but thought you should know:

36. Stipcevic, Iliri, p. 30 and n.; Mirdita, Studime dardane, pp. 7-46; Papazoglu, Central Balkan Tribes, pp. 210-69. As Papazoglu notes, most ancient sources classify Dardanians as Illyrians. Her reasons for rejecting this identification in a later essay, 'Les Royaumes', are obscure. There were Thracian names in the eastern strip of Dardania, but Illyrian names dominated the rest; Katicic has shown that these belong with two other Illyrian 'onomastic provinces' (see his summary in Ancient Languages, pp. 179-81, and the evidence in Papazoglu, 'Dardanska onomastika').

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html

Thunmann on Albanians regarded Albanians from Illyrian Albanoi tribe as do some Hungarian historians , they seem to suggest this tribe lived in Dardania where it influenced Romanian.

Of course we will never know the real origin of Romanian or Vlach for sure.

Rizza

09-15-2022, 03:52 PM

You also called me a troll but you're the one who cherry picked the samples for example PostMedv Albania is filled with Italian like samples, yet you cherry picked one that clusters like an Albanian . There are also some other samples that cluster like Gaugaz etc in some of these. It doesn't support your theory of some huge population replacing another from another area. These plotting are clearly some kind of bottle neck effects. You basically just cherry picked the samples and tried to make it look like some kind of change from Bronze Age / Iron Age to Medieval etc.

Distance to: ALB_PostMdv_I15707
1.29778409 IT_Toscania
1.32981445 IT_Lazio
1.33616391 IT_Lombardia
1.34786390 IT_Marche
1.39457615 Albanian_south
1.40270779 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.41089991 FR_Corsica
1.43074119 Albanians_FYROM
1.45119799 Albanian_north
1.48041752 IT_Umbria

Distance to: ALB_PostMdv_I15707
1.29778409 IT_Toscania
1.32981445 IT_Lazio
1.33616391 IT_Lombardia
1.34786390 IT_Marche
1.39457615 Albanian_south
1.40270779 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.41089991 FR_Corsica
1.43074119 Albanians_FYROM
1.45119799 Albanian_north
1.48041752 IT_Umbria

From Bronze Age / Iron Age Albania to this period there is clearly a genetic continuity of Italian-Albanian like samples. It doesn't support some kind of huge population replacement. One Iron Age from Albania even clustered like a Caucasian

And some of those Thracians actually also score some of these populations. Also what would your opinion be on named 'Byz' Western Balkan samples who are mostly Albanian/Greek like ? Even in Croatia. Not that I really care much about your opinions , I just wanna laugh at your fringe theories.

Rizza

09-15-2022, 04:29 PM

Btw, E-L618 was also found in Croatia https://www.theytree.com/tree/E-L618

Rizza

09-16-2022, 12:28 PM

I find it interesting how Mycenaeans are closer to IA Bulgarians than to IA Macedonians.

Global25 Europe1 PCA with LBA/IA Balkanians and Greeks, outliers excluded.

https://i.imgur.com/4Mld0U5.png

Proves obviously that those Myceanean samples aren't representive of all Greeks. They are way too south. Some people were trying to argue entire Greece should be like these samples. Also IA Bulgarians are more South than Albanians. But I expect samples found in Southern / Central Albania to also be south .

Some samples from that Roman Cosmopolitan area around Nish I believe were like some Central Albanians / Italians.

Btw some of these Macedonian samples actually cluster like Albanians and I believe mainland Greeks . Some Peloponnese Greeks are south like those Mycenaeans and IA Bulgarians.

Rizza

09-16-2022, 01:44 PM

So it actually turns out that those 'MKD' samples are not from Greek Macedonians but samples from Northern Macedonia but they seem to cluster similar to the sample found in Northern Greece and Albanians.

Some of these samples found in Northern Macedonia are actually Illyrians .

ID Label Locality Country
I3881 MKD_N Pista Novo Selo North Macedonia
I7231 MKD_BA Dimov Grob, V. Ulanci-Gradsko North Macedonia
I10171 MKD_BA_lc Vodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-Gradsko North Macedonia
I10168 MKD_BA_lc Skopje, Skupi, East Necropolis North Macedonia
I7233 MKD_Anc Vodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-Gradsko North Macedonia
I10388 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
I8112 MKD_Anc Lisicin Dol, Marvinci, Valandovo North Macedonia
I10383 MKD_Anc Lisicin Dol-Marvinci, Valandovo North Macedonia
I10385 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
I10379 MKD_Anc Bucinci-Skopje North Macedonia
I10381 MKD_Anc Govrlevo-Skopje North Macedonia
I10378 MKD_Anc Bucinci-Skopje North Macedonia
I10380 MKD_IA_lc Govrlevo-Skopje North Macedonia
I10389 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
I10387 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
I10384 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
I10382 MKD_Anc Govrlevo-Skopje North Macedonia
I10377 MKD_Anc Bucinci-Skopje North Macedonia
I10390 MKD_Anc Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis) North Macedonia
I10392 MKD_Anc_outlier1 Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis North Macedonia
I10166 MKD_Anc Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis North Macedonia
I10391 MKD_Anc Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis) North Macedonia
I10167 MKD_Anc_outlier2 Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis) North Macedonia
I2530 MKD_Mdv Tumba S. Opticari, Bitola North Macedonia

Southern part of North Macedonia was under Ancient Macedonian sphere . Some of these samples are from Ohrid in South-Western Macedonia which was actually Illyrian territory . such as Enchele and Dassareti .

Skopje was most likely Illyrian town .

Rizza

09-17-2022, 11:58 PM

Now also confirmed E-V13 was not existant among Illyrians. It's east Balkanic marker (we got Bulgarian site full of it).

Albanians have only minor Illyrian ancestry and no Balkanites are more than 50% Illyrian.

Why don't you use updated Albanian G25 average with different Albanian regions OP ?

Albanian_Korçë,0.12302,0.14544,0.01538,-0.01564,0.02552,-0.00124,0.00026,-0.00072,0.00242,0.01266,-0.00032,0.0021,-0.00588,0.00424,-0.01294,0.00004,0.00876,0.00042,0.00424,-0.00482,-0.00664,0.00108,0.00068,-0.00048,0.00232
Albanian_Labëria,0.11954615,0.14466154,0.0129,-0.019907692,0.022992308,-0.0051538462,-0.000084615385,-0.00081538462,0.004,0.015184615,0.00076923077,0.00 33769231,-0.0067769231,0.00077692308,-0.010015385,0.00097692308,0.0073384615,0.000223076 92,0.0031461538,-0.0038615385,-0.0038230769,0.00053076923,0.00037692308,-0.00092307692,0.00026923077
Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë,0.1227,0.14686,0.01738,-0.01518,0.02732,-0.00336,-0.00012,0.00064,0.00334,0.01646,0,0.004,-0.0092,0.00056,-0.00988,0.00074,0.00806,0.0002,0.00318,-0.00284,-0.00548,0.00092,-0.00042,-0.0002,0.00048
Albanian_Dibra,0.1220716,0.1464068,0.0146516,-0.0200808,0.0259236,-0.0061182,0.001511,0.0002814,0.0015192,0.0169838,0 .0007522,0.003908,-0.0085242,0.0052854,-0.0155376,0.0011286,0.0154266,-0.0000666,0.0057018,-0.0049814,-0.007322,0.0003786,0.0008056,-0.0010482,-0.0013252
Albanian_Central_Albania,0.11976,0.1461,0.0129,-0.02186,0.02414,-0.00558,0.00028,-0.00128,0.0046,0.01858,0.00032,0.00286,-0.00684,0.00124,-0.0102,0.00174,0.008,0.0012,0.00302,-0.00248,-0.00334,0.0016,-0.00072,-0.00046,0.00102
Albanian_Mirditë,0.120524,0.14547375,0.0159095,-0.020123,0.0244255,-0.00776375,0.00094125,-0.00101525,0.0012,0.02152425,-0.00089,0.002936,-0.0118215,-0.0031395,-0.01339875,0.0006915,0.0127645,0.00101675,0.004627 5,-0.004877,-0.00644825,0.002372,0.00307425,0.0040085,-0.003198
Albanian_Pukë,0.120325,0.143725,0.01315,-0.016575,0.024275,-0.00425,-0.000625,0.0004,0.003925,0.01555,-0.0004,0.00225,-0.00675,0.001475,-0.009375,0.0021,0.008,-0.000775,0.002425,-0.0046,-0.005,0.0015,-0.000175,0.000575,0.00055
Albanian_Himarë,0.11856667,0.14563333,0.0139,-0.022333333,0.023966667,-0.0074666667,0.0005,-0.0018333333,0.0050333333,0.016166667,0.0017333333 ,0.0042333333,-0.0063666667,0.00016666667,-0.0090666667,0.00023333333,0.0060666667,0.00063333 333,0.0031333333,-0.0042333333,-0.0019,-0.00046666667,0.0003,-0.0026,-0.0012333333
Albanian_Northwestern_Albania,0.12250414,0.1457854 3,0.018467571,-0.014054286,0.027054714,-0.0033674286,0.0013371429,0.0019691429,0.003812285 7,0.015923429,-0.00065328571,0.0041131429,-0.0071024286,0.001901,-0.011136857,-0.0013804286,0.0070728571,0.00078385714,0.00390771 43,-0.004279,-0.0048454286,0.0014961429,-0.00058242857,0.000877,0.00073685714
Albanian_Montenegro,0.124484,0.1439887,0.0213772,-0.0100424,0.0286827,-0.0047728,0.00146,0.0017577,0.002775,0.0146583,-0.0002061,0.0014157,-0.0071503,0.0037379,-0.0132531,-0.0009117,0.0074787,0.0011261,0.0040591,-0.0053111,-0.0064995,0.001472,0.0003751,-0.0011684,0.0003354
Albanian_Kosovo,0.12295462,0.14478773,0.017853885,-0.011466462,0.026755269,-0.0027497692,0.00088576923,0.0013136154,0.00222730 77,0.012821846,0.00018711538,0.0022654231,-0.0073647692,0.0029782692,-0.011526423,-0.00073811538,0.0084285769,0.00013642308,0.0035097 692,-0.0056040769,-0.0053803462,0.0016953077,0.000376,-0.0017949231,0.0010002308

Let's compare these samples now, this is the MBA sample from Albania in the OP you posted:

Distance to: ALB_MBA:I8471
0.04696172 Albanian_Mirditë
0.04791923 Italian_Tuscany
0.04792832 Swiss_Italian
0.04809151 Italian_Piedmont
0.04840223 French_Corsica
0.04909330 Italian_Veneto
0.05010355 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.05051373 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.05101654 Italian_Bergamo
0.05131666 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.05144378 Albanian_Pukë
0.05148225 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.05176896 Italian_Umbria
0.05203126 Albanian_Montenegro
0.05213647 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05267451 Albanian_Labëria
0.05271834 Albanian_Kosovo
0.05273225 Albanian_Dibra
0.05300211 French_Provence
0.05317641 Albanian_Himarë
0.05326896 Italian_Northeast
0.05355394 Spanish_Baleares
0.05381182 Spanish_Mallorca
0.05426558 Albanian_Korçë
0.05451782 Italian_Lombardy

Some more:

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.02702153 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02886532 Italian_Piedmont
0.02909987 Italian_Tuscany
0.02918718 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02952803 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02974394 Swiss_Italian
0.03092626 Albanian_Labëria
0.03100157 Albanian_Himarë
0.03106432 Albanian_Pukë
0.03124415 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03157371 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03237354 Italian_Bergamo
0.03244842 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03280549 Albanian_Dibra
0.03361312 Italian_Umbria
0.03361518 Albanian_Korçë
0.03386512 French_Corsica
0.03400007 Greek_Thessaly
0.03427858 Italian_Veneto
0.03503797 Italian_Marche
0.03591488 Italian_Lazio
0.03608747 Italian_Lombardy
0.03822531 Greek_Messenia
0.03823370 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03851080 Greek_Argolis

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.03040623 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03081551 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03132625 Italian_Bergamo
0.03134221 Swiss_Italian
0.03137717 Italian_Piedmont
0.03174711 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03312290 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03344434 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03356377 Italian_Tuscany
0.03375936 Italian_Veneto
0.03379613 Greek_Thessaly
0.03406956 Albanian_Korçë
0.03439415 Albanian_Pukë
0.03477466 Albanian_Dibra
0.03490373 Italian_Lombardy
0.03513336 Albanian_Labëria
0.03537663 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03684893 Albanian_Himarë
0.03707327 Italian_Northeast
0.03795358 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03801065 French_Corsica
0.03826424 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03886443 Italian_Umbria
0.03958920 Greek_Macedonia
0.03994990 Italian_Liguria

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.02229399 Italian_Veneto
0.02298098 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02688542 Italian_Northeast
0.02729830 Italian_Piedmont
0.02735221 Italian_Bergamo
0.02802242 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02846475 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02918632 Swiss_Italian
0.02950115 Italian_Lombardy
0.02963871 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02997476 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03042430 French_Provence
0.03162317 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03249177 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03252671 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03322520 Italian_Liguria
0.03336647 Italian_Tuscany
0.03380439 Spanish_Baleares
0.03394714 Albanian_Pukë
0.03451902 Albanian_Korçë
0.03524078 Albanian_Labëria
0.03554151 Greek_Thessaly
0.03564620 Albanian_Himarë
0.03601456 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03642084 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256
0.04250106 Swiss_Italian
0.04264031 Albanian_Mirditë
0.04380569 Italian_Veneto
0.04450226 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.04556721 Albanian_Kosovo
0.04565211 Albanian_Dibra
0.04606658 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.04618701 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04623457 Albanian_Pukë
0.04649888 Albanian_Montenegro
0.04710777 Italian_Tuscany
0.04723999 Italian_Piedmont
0.04746880 Italian_Northeast
0.04757404 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.04771402 Albanian_Labëria
0.04804920 Albanian_Korçë
0.04834720 Albanian_Himarë
0.04873892 French_Provence
0.04875999 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04920106 Italian_Bergamo
0.04957710 Swiss_French
0.05065795 Rumelia_East
0.05092262 Spanish_Baleares
0.05096698 French_Corsica
0.05144038 Spanish_Mallorca

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254
0.04732269 Italian_Bergamo
0.04810171 Albanian_Mirditë
0.04849878 Italian_Piedmont
0.04853738 Italian_Veneto
0.04992935 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05039020 Italian_Northeast
0.05127478 Albanian_Montenegro
0.05138411 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.05175460 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.05206174 Swiss_Italian
0.05208033 Italian_Lombardy
0.05262085 Italian_Tuscany
0.05286735 Albanian_Dibra
0.05309711 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.05315686 Albanian_Kosovo
0.05342267 French_Corsica
0.05472650 Spanish_Mallorca
0.05485039 Spanish_Baleares
0.05513225 Albanian_Pukë
0.05529749 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.05539984 Albanian_Korçë
0.05550170 French_Provence
0.05619702 Albanian_Himarë
0.05626443 Albanian_Labëria
0.05639041 Italian_Liguria

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253
0.03283337 Italian_Bergamo
0.03437699 Italian_Veneto
0.03637630 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03812178 Italian_Piedmont
0.03864386 Italian_Northeast
0.03933206 Italian_Lombardy
0.03943111 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03956018 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03998658 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.04014912 Albanian_Montenegro
0.04078850 French_Corsica
0.04087147 Swiss_Italian
0.04174371 Albanian_Dibra
0.04240445 Albanian_Kosovo
0.04281563 Italian_Tuscany
0.04417635 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04430015 Spanish_Baleares
0.04434147 Albanian_Korçë
0.04492772 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04529686 French_Provence
0.04552786 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.04563367 Albanian_Pukë
0.04633452 Albanian_Labëria
0.04649093 Greek_Thessaly
0.04658005 Albanian_Himarë

Where is this ''huge'' genetic change you are talking about ?

Rizza

09-18-2022, 12:29 AM

Ok, you're a troll, I'll pass.

No, I am not. I am telling you the truth.

I added updated Albanian G25 regions above you can check out

Check out samples from Ancient North Macedonia here https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366492-Ancient-Macedonia-DNA&p=7581370#post7581370

Distance to: MKD_BA:I7231
0.02453354 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02461167 Albanian_Dibra
0.02627658 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02705227 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02792935 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02836361 Greek_Argolis
0.02857725 Albanian_Labëria
0.02860356 Albanian_Pukë
0.02861449 Albanian_Korçë
0.02912992 Greek_Thessaly
0.02915145 Greek_Corinthia
0.02928445 Albanian_Himarë
0.02955332 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02956342 Italian_Tuscany
0.02998214 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03084134 Greek_Messenia
0.03092533 Greek_Achaea
0.03107164 Italian_Umbria
0.03123886 Greek_Arcadia
0.03151459 Italian_Piedmont
0.03168302 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03221895 Italian_Marche
0.03267648 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03268571 French_Corsica
0.03271945 Greek_Elis

How can some calculator tell you if you are ''minor'' Illyrian with so much genetic overlap ? If we are minor Illyrian then what are you ? Most of your pre-Slavic Balkan Y-DNA IS Ev-13 which you claim is Thracian.

Rizza

09-18-2022, 01:48 AM

In fact the Albanian-Kosovo for this G25 is a bit different from the one Lukas used, there actually Kosovo matched some of these samples in Kukes the most but Kosovo is diverse, one can break down it into different regions where some cluster like Greeks others closer to North Italians .

Rizza

09-18-2022, 12:19 PM

Samples found in Montenegro from Bronze Age / Iron Age :

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I14501
0.03161055 Italian_Veneto
0.03190947 Italian_Bergamo
0.03229070 Italian_Northeast
0.03361511 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03487284 Italian_Piedmont
0.03556372 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03639368 Italian_Lombardy
0.03668774 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03759758 Swiss_Italian
0.03779045 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03823348 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03838491 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03847572 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03878365 French_Provence
0.04122640 Spanish_Baleares
0.04128342 Italian_Tuscany
0.04136549 Albanian_Korçë
0.04189642 Albanian_Pukë
0.04217976 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04272454 Greek_Thessaly
0.04292096 Albanian_Dibra
0.04332928 Albanian_Labëria
0.04385889 Albanian_Himarë
0.04392188 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04394109 Albanian_Central_Albania

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I14500
0.05098893 Albanian_Mirditë
0.05149378 Swiss_Italian
0.05194592 Italian_Veneto
0.05316691 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.05336089 Italian_Piedmont
0.05381510 French_Corsica
0.05392998 Albanian_Dibra
0.05413893 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.05418770 Italian_Bergamo
0.05420560 Italian_Tuscany
0.05431320 Albanian_Montenegro
0.05449874 Albanian_Pukë
0.05470680 Albanian_Kosovo
0.05583122 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05584938 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.05659206 Albanian_Labëria
0.05714703 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.05720092 Italian_Northeast
0.05733877 Albanian_Korçë
0.05752715 Italian_Umbria
0.05789945 Albanian_Himarë
0.05805516 Spanish_Mallorca
0.05849581 Spanish_Baleares
0.05852092 Spanish_Girona
0.05856444 French_Provence

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I14498
0.02629285 Italian_Bergamo
0.02751403 Italian_Veneto
0.02798195 Italian_Lombardy
0.02869409 Italian_Piedmont
0.02897198 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03283595 French_Corsica
0.03350892 Italian_Northeast
0.03399940 Swiss_Italian
0.03446965 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03489805 Italian_Tuscany
0.03493792 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03559158 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03590057 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03599713 Spanish_Baleares
0.03704209 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03705259 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03722256 French_Provence
0.03854607 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03905068 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03918800 Spanish_Menorca
0.03946482 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03949405 Italian_Liguria
0.03955959 Albanian_Himarë
0.03994102 Albanian_Pukë
0.04035898 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13778
0.03442091 Italian_Lombardy
0.03472301 Italian_Bergamo
0.03699404 Italian_Veneto
0.03778322 Italian_Piedmont
0.03842038 Italian_Northeast
0.03854896 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03875853 Italian_Liguria
0.04063569 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.04154881 Albanian_Montenegro
0.04227881 Swiss_Italian
0.04231202 Albanian_Kosovo
0.04250941 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.04391703 French_Provence
0.04396849 Greek_Thessaly
0.04443949 Albanian_Korçë
0.04504692 Italian_Tuscany
0.04596406 Greek_Macedonia
0.04664973 Albanian_Pukë
0.04677378 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04687298 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04694497 Albanian_Labëria
0.04730093 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.04747048 Albanian_Himarë
0.04819172 Albanian_Mirditë
0.04854745 French_Corsica

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13777
0.02449355 Italian_Veneto
0.02607696 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02632117 Italian_Bergamo
0.02669990 Italian_Piedmont
0.02842954 Italian_Northeast
0.02919213 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02925896 Italian_Lombardy
0.03007159 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03054995 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03097950 Swiss_Italian
0.03193409 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03333681 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03474790 French_Provence
0.03487451 Italian_Tuscany
0.03546487 Albanian_Korçë
0.03546827 Albanian_Pukë
0.03585316 French_Corsica
0.03640546 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03660541 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03663895 Albanian_Dibra
0.03695445 Albanian_Labëria
0.03739998 Greek_Thessaly
0.03750393 Albanian_Himarë
0.03778973 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03848245 Spanish_Baleares

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13775
0.02381174 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02611575 Italian_Piedmont
0.02617468 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02646305 Italian_Tuscany
0.02686090 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02848788 Italian_Bergamo
0.02850745 Italian_Veneto
0.02872157 Swiss_Italian
0.02949573 Albanian_Pukë
0.02951460 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02977683 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03051188 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03074581 Albanian_Dibra
0.03077089 Albanian_Labëria
0.03123827 French_Corsica
0.03159183 Albanian_Korçë
0.03176347 Italian_Lombardy
0.03213769 Greek_Thessaly
0.03218401 Albanian_Himarë
0.03295760 Italian_Umbria
0.03370390 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03583719 Italian_Marche
0.03607448 Italian_Northeast
0.03616890 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03736566 Italian_Liguria

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13172
0.02649439 Italian_Lombardy
0.02901441 Italian_Bergamo
0.03003854 Italian_Piedmont
0.03203360 Italian_Veneto
0.03237915 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03358457 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03381281 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03437600 Greek_Thessaly
0.03540986 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03544601 Swiss_Italian
0.03618249 Italian_Tuscany
0.03656121 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03690362 French_Corsica
0.03700826 Italian_Liguria
0.03703014 Italian_Northeast
0.03769257 Albanian_Himarë
0.03800186 Greek_Macedonia
0.03826849 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03847157 Albanian_Pukë
0.03849684 Albanian_Korçë
0.03861616 Albanian_Labëria
0.03883469 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.04048279 Italian_Marche
0.04059568 Albanian_Dibra
0.04094823 Greek_Central_Macedonia

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13171
0.03234561 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03260276 Italian_Veneto
0.03337394 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03360095 Swiss_Italian
0.03521711 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03588815 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03596949 Italian_Northeast
0.03601807 Italian_Piedmont
0.03614584 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03645592 Albanian_Pukë
0.03733016 Albanian_Dibra
0.03755380 Albanian_Korçë
0.03769458 Italian_Tuscany
0.03774172 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03807908 Italian_Bergamo
0.03832913 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03870610 Albanian_Labëria
0.03877895 French_Provence
0.03882535 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.04110689 Albanian_Himarë
0.04228995 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04279357 French_Corsica
0.04288957 Italian_Umbria
0.04300715 Greek_Thessaly
0.04337964 Spanish_Mallorca

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13169
0.03012028 Italian_Piedmont
0.03075129 Italian_Bergamo
0.03160958 Italian_Veneto
0.03241986 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03261827 Swiss_Italian
0.03294106 Italian_Lombardy
0.03299371 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03318292 French_Corsica
0.03336088 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03377694 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03410027 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03415580 Italian_Tuscany
0.03574594 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03608034 Albanian_Pukë
0.03646326 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03716243 Albanian_Labëria
0.03756022 Albanian_Himarë
0.03756986 Albanian_Korçë
0.03772480 Albanian_Dibra
0.03849621 Italian_Northeast
0.03853152 Greek_Thessaly
0.04023065 Italian_Umbria
0.04100349 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04153309 Italian_Marche
0.04183843 Italian_Liguria

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13168
0.02392480 Italian_Veneto
0.02706908 Italian_Bergamo
0.02765781 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02810125 Italian_Northeast
0.02843219 Italian_Piedmont
0.02908988 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02916967 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02944917 Swiss_Italian
0.02950232 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03094842 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03096426 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03374299 Italian_Tuscany
0.03385186 Italian_Lombardy
0.03416940 Albanian_Pukë
0.03420397 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03434616 French_Provence
0.03445568 Albanian_Korçë
0.03481720 Albanian_Dibra
0.03579234 French_Corsica
0.03615602 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03627119 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03671440 Albanian_Labëria
0.03771334 Spanish_Baleares
0.03851424 Albanian_Himarë
0.03867769 Greek_Thessaly

Distance to: MNE_LBA:I13167
0.02399590 Italian_Tuscany
0.02510835 Italian_Piedmont
0.02531580 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02671347 French_Corsica
0.02853969 Italian_Umbria
0.02889397 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02898827 Italian_Lombardy
0.02948484 Italian_Bergamo
0.03004544 Albanian_Himarë
0.03010209 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03012350 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03100868 Italian_Marche
0.03108940 Albanian_Labëria
0.03112440 Greek_Thessaly
0.03120530 Albanian_Pukë
0.03189381 Swiss_Italian
0.03200359 Italian_Veneto
0.03227499 Albanian_Dibra
0.03248572 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03267301 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03428860 Albanian_Korçë
0.03510141 Italian_Lazio
0.03608534 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03617693 Italian_Liguria
0.03743446 Greek_Argolis

Distance to: MNE_IA:I13170
0.02600271 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.03019986 Moldovan_o
0.03042446 Hungarian
0.03133947 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03140300 Croatian
0.03225599 Slovenian
0.03300620 Slovakian
0.03446570 Czech
0.03647035 Polish
0.03752247 Bosnian
0.03778873 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03886117 German_East
0.03886902 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03902731 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03962180 Russian_Belgorod
0.03967091 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03983405 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03987041 Austrian
0.04085063 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04091259 Russian_Voronez
0.04168151 Moldovan
0.04176075 Russian_Orel
0.04204429 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04241457 Russian_Kursk
0.04246573 Russian_Ryazan

Some samples for average Kosovo Albanian have been included into Albanian-Tropoje-Gjakova North-Eastern / Albania - Western Kosovo I think

Jana

09-18-2022, 06:27 PM

I made simulated coords for Albos that were present in Creoda K36 list including you:

MagnusDark,0.12308863976599996,0.149306075343,0.01 668037532980001,-0.022375563688000186,0.028985185954000015,-0.007630102048720005,0.0031671634360000075,0.00126 71054380000782,0.005636456391000161,0.024687161443 99999,-0.0007641817071200004,0.00512449592800002,-0.009251641884000017,0.009100344982000658,-0.01817475016299991,-0.00733075206699995,0.008194023151999977,0.0003156 56711000048,0.006378658092999973,-0.007013679609199997,-0.005800193596000286,-0.0008203261959998931,0.0017833806509999807,-0.004183653198999895,-0.0013676486850000003
MagnusDarkFather,0.12084514486700015,0.14850879029 2,0.014499332727600001,-0.024315868915000136,0.026094728261000004,-0.008537914512599998,0.002801271844999991,0.001136 5189200000236,0.004335403804999846,0.0214233981120 00072,0.0005476379212799996,0.0034225949960000127,-0.005284097429999999,0.009417238696000224,-0.019998225966999926,-0.005596821871999898,0.007413590109999854,0.000555 6987749998285,0.007925025684999944,-0.009488275927799994,-0.00971830488400005,-0.0009481198999999885,0.0031968020369999763,-0.00021123408800000076,-0.0017395570550002987
Lek,0.12271074310300023,0.145300671773,0.022174335 42820001,-0.011367648505000175,0.028306257998000014,-0.0032366365274799982,0.0032273305099999247,0.0012 915379099999666,0.0039117347450000894,0.0153463362 67999867,-0.0016862473808000006,0.0032605999290000014,-0.005139817674999974,0.006546898474000154,-0.008614458137999818,-0.002127002207999884,0.004208182479999753,0.000995 4308799999048,0.004946971554999999,-0.0015765930305000051,-0.003348529865999747,0.0001640482299999843,0.00175 97281179999626,0.0013574485930000837,-0.0019167426050000491
Ylla,0.12106028872200011,0.147202072428,0.01216773 2315600015,-0.02514487518800007,0.0240414053896,-0.00817390909102,0.0033608862200000394,0.000408073 15599992317,0.003884664288999848,0.022220164745999 964,0.0002223517444280003,0.003966373455999945,-0.00701285753699999,0.004759537410000153,-0.01722406487100004,-0.001672487855000078,0.009481428269999898,0.001042 2495849999741,0.007318452993999988,-0.0082712916352,-0.006883436367999651,-0.00014493536200006762,0.002049024200999984,-0.00035193626699993666,-0.0005039336990000781

and run the model with newest ancient averages:

without Romans:

Target: MagnusDark
Distance: 0.0150% / 0.01504295
67.5 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
26.6 Slavic_Migration
5.9 ALB_Cinamak_Anc

Target: MagnusDarkFather
Distance: 0.0195% / 0.01954779
70.0 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
27.3 Slavic_Migration
2.7 ALB_Cinamak_Anc

Target: Lek
Distance: 0.0193% / 0.01926364
36.9 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
35.9 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
27.2 Slavic_Migration

Target: Ylla
Distance: 0.0216% / 0.02162193
57.1 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
23.7 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
19.2 Slavic_Migration

with Imperial Romans:

Target: MagnusDark
Distance: 0.0092% / 0.00918542
53.3 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
27.9 Slavic_Migration
18.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Target: MagnusDarkFather
Distance: 0.0098% / 0.00984998
46.2 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
27.3 Slavic_Migration
26.5 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Target: Lek
Distance: 0.0096% / 0.00962507
30.3 Slavic_Migration
26.7 ITA_Rome_Imperial
23.7 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
19.3 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA

Target: Ylla
Distance: 0.0092% / 0.00921948
36.5 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
31.3 ITA_Rome_Imperial
22.8 Slavic_Migration
9.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc

Slavic_Migration,0.1287235,0.1278568,0.0703873,0.0 593586,0.0370186,0.0218888,0.0084246,0.0138402,0.0 011992,-0.0197463,-0.0016042,-0.007926,0.0132735,0.0208197,-0.0130785,-0.0031077,0.0047095,-0.0005076,0.0020921,-0.0003468,-0.0039457,-0.0034492,0.0079812,-0.0059772,-0.0007285
ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA,0.1206523,0.1614692,0.00835 93,-0.0527028,0.0323137,-0.0258903,0.001645,-0.0029232,0.012033,0.0480497,0.0018675,0.0096915,-0.0182605,0.0016517,-0.023525,-0.0100547,0.011213,0.0040962,0.0112082,-0.0087542,-0.010024,0.0014218,-0.0033688,0.001044,-0.0068658
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141

Jana

09-18-2022, 06:30 PM

If we are minor Illyrian then what are you ? Most of your pre-Slavic Balkan Y-DNA IS Ev-13 which you claim is Thracian.

Exactly. I ran models for many Croats and most don't register any significant Illyrian for pre-Slavic part (I am rare exception)
you score more Illyrian compared to other Albos but it's also below 50%.

I think Illyrians were genocided by Romans and partly replaced with Thracians.

Rizza

09-18-2022, 06:51 PM

Samples from Croatia , I picked the ones who don't cluster like South-West Europe, Spanish or Portuguese which we already know there are a bunch of but more towards the Balkans .

Some of those samples from Bezdanjaca belong some type of R1b found in some Albanians . In Austomal They range from Italian, Spanish, French etc to few clustering like Slavs. Samples from Bronze Age Romania which are probably Dacian all cluster like Spanish . Those Thracians are more or less similar to some of these samples found in Northern Macedonia etc . Yamnaya that mixed heavily with Neolithic . Those calculators you are talking about change your ancestry based on the settings pretty much. As Lazaridis concludes, Ancient Balkans was genetically diverse , Yamnaya mixing with Neolithic that had already mixed with Hunter Gatherers created a taper of diverse ancestry . Btw , I have studied Y-DNA of samples in Romania, they belong to Y-DNA not found in Albanians I believe. Samples from Bulgaria except for EV-13 and few R1b-Z2103 which is also found in Illyrians they belong to other type of Y-DNA . Those Thracian samples belong to a bunch of different Y-DNA and not just EV-13 as also was shown from Thracian samples years ago . This is also what these samples show, while there is some homogenous there is quite some diversity .

Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.02387855 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02455531 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02508687 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02525277 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02618158 Albanian_Dibra
0.02683765 Albanian_Kosovo
0.02756645 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02760551 Albanian_Pukë
0.02793363 Albanian_Korçë
0.02864355 Albanian_Labëria
0.02911937 Italian_Piedmont
0.02967725 Albanian_Himarë
0.03034761 Italian_Tuscany
0.03061987 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03085234 Greek_Thessaly
0.03190831 Swiss_Italian
0.03234009 Greek_Argolis
0.03288749 Italian_Veneto
0.03316932 Rumelia_East
0.03321123 Greek_Macedonia
0.03339105 Greek_Corinthia
0.03353053 Italian_Bergamo
0.03360976 Greek_Arcadia
0.03368977 Greek_Messenia
0.03421736 Greek_Achaea

Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.02536241 Italian_Veneto
0.02601193 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02638392 Italian_Northeast
0.02687862 Italian_Bergamo
0.02746472 Italian_Piedmont
0.02854889 Swiss_Italian
0.02920565 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02932531 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02971096 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03027487 Italian_Lombardy
0.03047477 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03300004 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03331844 Italian_Liguria
0.03337391 French_Provence
0.03379873 Italian_Tuscany
0.03438593 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03466443 Albanian_Korçë
0.03474223 Albanian_Pukë
0.03571370 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03610133 Greek_Thessaly
0.03610451 Albanian_Labëria
0.03623454 Albanian_Dibra
0.03692959 Albanian_Himarë
0.03716510 Spanish_Baleares
0.03738772 Albanian_Central_Albania

Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747
0.02719048 Italian_Piedmont
0.02937583 Italian_Bergamo
0.03036875 Italian_Veneto
0.03061270 Italian_Lombardy
0.03136869 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03163241 Swiss_Italian
0.03175641 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03196803 French_Corsica
0.03204696 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03222116 Italian_Tuscany
0.03224369 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03240220 Albanian_Himarë
0.03283242 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03315059 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03392183 Albanian_Labëria
0.03460825 Albanian_Pukë
0.03485692 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03505209 Italian_Liguria
0.03562570 Greek_Thessaly
0.03624697 Albanian_Korçë
0.03658875 Spanish_Menorca
0.03676015 Italian_Northeast
0.03734153 Albanian_Dibra
0.03739856 Spanish_Baleares
0.03794648 Italian_Umbria

Distance to: HRV_EBA:I3499
0.02879148 Italian_Tuscany
0.03018715 Italian_Piedmont
0.03337812 Albanian_Himarë
0.03348532 Swiss_Italian
0.03385035 French_Corsica
0.03385069 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03433014 Italian_Lombardy
0.03462348 Italian_Marche
0.03475908 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03545024 Albanian_Labëria
0.03563724 Italian_Umbria
0.03569448 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03572884 Italian_Bergamo
0.03630241 Greek_Thessaly
0.03644951 Italian_Veneto
0.03646933 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03676831 Albanian_Pukë
0.03703327 Italian_Liguria
0.03729837 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03767123 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03856803 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03941698 Albanian_Dibra
0.04004798 Albanian_Korçë
0.04106993 Italian_Lazio
0.04124768 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: HRV_EIA:I23904
0.02502255 Italian_Veneto
0.02670273 Swiss_Italian
0.02680831 Italian_Bergamo
0.02734474 Italian_Piedmont
0.02818026 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02896575 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02942175 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02986820 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03010642 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03034878 Italian_Northeast
0.03054387 Italian_Lombardy
0.03135949 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03267342 Italian_Tuscany
0.03300529 Albanian_Pukë
0.03382955 Italian_Liguria
0.03409224 Albanian_Korçë
0.03437561 French_Provence
0.03437888 Albanian_Labëria
0.03445712 Spanish_Baleares
0.03448954 French_Corsica
0.03460066 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03477322 Greek_Thessaly
0.03537972 Albanian_Himarë
0.03545728 Albanian_Dibra
0.03565770 Spanish_Mallorca

Distance to: HRV_BA:I18748
0.02324079 Italian_Piedmont
0.02605940 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02634209 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02642947 Italian_Veneto
0.02677601 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02679206 Italian_Lombardy
0.02697581 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02699814 Swiss_Italian
0.02734180 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02748499 Italian_Bergamo
0.02750956 Italian_Tuscany
0.02887077 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03038382 Albanian_Pukë
0.03077657 Italian_Liguria
0.03155971 Italian_Northeast
0.03164456 Greek_Thessaly
0.03182944 French_Corsica
0.03183622 Albanian_Labëria
0.03183830 Albanian_Himarë
0.03195467 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03206744 Albanian_Dibra
0.03253250 Albanian_Korçë
0.03552398 Italian_Umbria
0.03614520 Italian_Marche
0.03629378 Greek_Central_Macedonia

Hulu

09-19-2022, 07:11 AM

Exactly. I ran models for many Croats and most don't register any significant Illyrian for pre-Slavic part (I am rare exception)
you score more Illyrian compared to other Albos but it's also below 50%.

I think Illyrians were genocided by Romans and partly replaced with Thracians.

If you arent trolling then you dont really understand how these calculators works. They will add meaningless populations instead of the real one just becauce thay way becomes closer mathematically. Look at the post Rizza posted above that shows how well we alternate with Italians in distances. Give it up because it's a stupid theory.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 10:46 AM

Dalmatian Latin did not develop out of Romanized Thracian . Nor have I seen any evidence for it . It's Latin that developed in Coastal areas from Romanized Illyrians + maybe Roman colonists. I haven't seen evidence of any kind of population replacement . Just look at Byzantine samples found in Croatia they are genetically like Greeks and Albanians , maybe there was a bottle neck since such genetic profile somewhat already existed despite many clustering like South-Western Euros in Croatia. Samples in Bronze Age Romania all clustered like Spanish. I cannot imagine that all this kind of genetic profile disappeared either way.

As for Dardania, it was Illyrian, had a large Illyrian population, even if there were Thracians there, even if Proto-Albanian had originated there how could we possibly end up as minor Illyrian unless we mixed heavily with Slavs, Greeks etc. There is of course also the 'Arboi' , 'Abroi' or Arbon tribe in Northern Albania connected to Albanian 'Arberia' between the Mat and Drin river https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abroi and the Albanoi between the Shkumbin and Mat which were tribes that came from other Illyrians like the Taulantii and which are actually believed to be the same tribes. Most linguists recognize this is where the Albanian name came from even the ones who do not believe Albanian language developed from that tribe. Albanian might of influenced Romanian in terms of a shared pastoral life. Romanian/Vlach speakers were recorded in Western Kosovo. I can show you Ottoman tax registers for this from the 1480's or Vilajet of Pashtrik of South-Western Kosovo from 1452 that recorded Albanian and Romanian villages in the area.

As for me scoring less than 50%, I don't even have G25 to compare myself to all these samples in the first place . I only have my K13 and K15. Second, who even knows all the samples you added , 3rd the results change based on the settings you add to the calculator , 4th those Thracians more or less genetically overlap with other Ancient Balkan samples and some Albanians or show genetic similarity such as some samples found in Northern Macedonia. The distances aren't any more closer to them than any other samples found in the Balkans. Depends on the person. So it can be misleading. I would also add samples found in Northern Macedonia to the calculator .

If you wanna make a fair comparison , you either take all regions from every ethnicity and add them into an average, or you divide them into different regions, same for ancient samples or you take individuals and compare them . Not to mention the calculator settings which change the results . For example in other calculators when I changed the settings some years ago I noticed the results changed people were getting German instead of Slavic etc. Some Albanians were getting like 30% Slavic and some almost none and German which is of course nonsense and a lot of these calculators are just nonsense made by armchair scientists . Coded in some crappy JavaScript .

Especially when I take a look at some of these samples found in Montenegro and Northern Albania and how close some are to Northern Albanian populations , there is no way someone like me is less than 50% Illyrian . Northern Italian regions some of these samples score is typically scored by many Albanians today like Veneto, Bergamo, etc . Others score more Southern regions of Italy like Apulia, Abruzzo etc which also some of these sampels do. Also you forgot R1b-2103 which was found among Illyrians also and not just Thracians . We have more Illyrian samples with R1b on average I believe .

Also check out samples from the Roman Cosmopolitan area . Anyway, it is your opinion, if you wanna believe we are Thracian or whatever theories, it is your free choice to do that of course .

Rizza

09-19-2022, 10:47 AM

Romanian was heavily influenced by Slavic linguistically and genetically . Does not mean Romanians are not pre-Slavic . Would be interesting to see different Romanian regions , Bulgarian etc to see the differences between regions. I imagine former Wallachia area as the most native Balkan . Would also be interesting to see Aromanian in this.

Dardanians are believed to of been part of colonization of Apulia where names like 'Dardi' , Calabrii etc appear from Dardanian tribe 'Galabri'

Since you claim you're a Croat who is an exception when it comes to Illyrian, how could one person end up as only Illyrian out of the entire ethnicity ? Obviously a calculator effect, some of these Illyrian samples are also more North shifted, obviously will be closer to Slavic speakers compared to more Southern samples.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 11:06 AM

Btw, these are some Albanian MyTrueAncestry results I found, notice the 'Daunian' Messapic which is believed to of been a language related to Proto-Albanian. Of course some also get Thraican, Greek, Roman etc. Albanian shows high IBD sharing with Italian and Slavic Macedonian populations . Check out one of the posts of the Italian member Kenshiro from Apulia he gets Medieval Albanian matches and even Illyrian .

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/993198980202770528/1015767820933533747/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1013598180602040441/1015719561519185920/unknown.png

Jana

09-19-2022, 08:18 PM

If you arent trolling then you dont really understand how these calculators works. They will add meaningless populations instead of the real one just becauce thay way becomes closer mathematically. Look at the post Rizza posted above that shows how well we alternate with Italians in distances. Give it up because it's a stupid theory.

You are retarded and have complete lack of understanding how calculators work. Single population sharing is meaningless (and it does not look good for you either). Northern Italians cluster close to old Latins in single pop but they only partly descend from them, yet they are relatively close because they were shifted south by Imperial Romans and later North by Germanics, thus ending up where original Latins were.

You are similar case as Slavic input shifted you back north. And that is why you don't register much Illyrian in modeling which is only thing that matters.

Honesty your post is embarassingly stupid.

There's no theory, there is no E-V13 present in Illyrians in any significant number and you have less than 50% of their ancestry.

Deal with it.

Jana

09-19-2022, 08:30 PM

Rizza

09-19-2022, 08:32 PM

If you arent trolling then you dont really understand how these calculators works. They will add meaningless populations instead of the real one just becauce thay way becomes closer mathematically. Look at the post Rizza posted above that shows how well we alternate with Italians in distances. Give it up because it's a stupid theory.

Exactly. Just look at what the guy posted here https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?330032-Eurogenes-K13-model-for-Albania&p=6844786&viewfull=1#post6844786 , Kelmendasi gets like 30% Slavic, some other guys gets German instead lol . Some get Phoenician instead of native Balkan.

I tried to run what they did and I changed the calculator settings, I got completely different results.

I'd compare us first to samples found in Northern Macedonia and Albania where there actually live Albanians historically .

Especially when one looks at how close the distance to Albanian some of these Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians are. Certainly no way some stupid calculator can tell you which one you have more ancestry from. On average, it seems Illyrian samples are closer. IA Thracians are almost like Myceaneans.

Ylla

09-19-2022, 08:53 PM

Exactly. Just look at what the guy posted here https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?330032-Eurogenes-K13-model-for-Albania&p=6844786&viewfull=1#post6844786 , Kelmendasi gets like 30% Slavic, some other guys gets German instead lol . Some get Phoenician instead of native Balkan.

I tried to run what they did and I changed the calculator settings, I got completely different results.

I'd compare us first to samples found in Northern Macedonia and Albania where there actually live Albanians historically .

Especially when one looks at how close the distance to Albanian some of these Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians are. Certainly no way some stupid calculator can tell you which one you have more ancestry from. On average, it seems Illyrian samples are closer. IA Thracians are almost like Myceaneans.

In her calculator a Romanian member scored highest Illyrian of all the Balkan members, that has no historical basis. Its just a bunch of bs. She deffo has an agenda and I started to dislike her more and more.
Stearsolina really thinks she’s something with her opinions. We should be able to keep an open mind about our own origins, these calculators are not scientific fact, should we wish to wait for further samples, we are free to do so. This place has gone to crap tbh and foreigners try to explain your origins, which is no business of theirs.

Jana

09-19-2022, 08:57 PM

Dušan

09-19-2022, 09:16 PM

Why is problem if Albanians came to modern Albania as tribe Bessi from territory of todays Bulgaria?
Recent genetic researches clearly show that Thracian hypothesis as true.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 09:20 PM

In her calculator a Romanian member scored highest Illyrian of all the Balkan members, that has no historical basis. Its just a bunch of bs. She deffo has an agenda and I started to dislike her more and more.
Stearsolina really thinks she’s something with her opinions. We should be able to keep an open mind about our own origins, these calculators are not scientific fact, should we wish to wait for further samples, we are free to do so. This place has gone to crap tbh and foreigners try to explain your origins, which is no business of theirs.

Who even knows all the samples she used. Some of those samples are also outliers. And some of those samples in Montenegro and Northern Albania are clearly close to Albanians together with those samples found in Northern Macedonia as shown by some of the things I have posted here. A calculator normally should be giving like 80% of that at least. And you can easily change the settings to get the desired results. Those samples also have more or less the same components as Albanians too based on what the Albanian member Bruzmi posted on Anthrogenica. I will maybe try and create my own.

Getting populations that has no historic basis can simply be some genetic similarity or calculator effect.

Indeed she has an agenda. I personally never liked this person and for many good reasons. Last person I would be taking genetic or history lessons from.

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:22 PM

Why is problem if Albanians came to modern Albania as tribe Bessi from territory of todays Bulgaria?
Recent genetic researches clearly show that Thracian hypothesis as true.

I don't support that theory, but central Balkan homeland of proto-Albanians. Something like Dardanians, who were probably Illyrian-Thracian mix.
Name Albania comes from Illyrian tribe Albanoi and in my speculative but not unlikely theory proto-Albanians from around Kosovo moved westward and assimilated people they encountered there.
Btw, Albania was full of Slavic toponymy, that was an input as well.

they are mix of different Paleo Balkanite tribes plus other stuff like Slavs. I'm only not sure about the Roman stuff. There is probably some Roman admix because Albanian language has Latin influence but it's hard to estimate how much if any exactly is there since they were not romanized people after all.

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:23 PM

Who even knows all the samples she used.

I use official averages from Davidski sheet which I posted here, imbecile. Keep coping.

Hulu

09-19-2022, 09:25 PM

You are retarded and have complete lack of understanding how calculators work. Single population sharing is meaningless (and it does not look good for you either). Northern Italians cluster close to old Latins in single pop but they only partly descend from them, yet they are relatively close because they were shifted south by Imperial Romans and later North by Germanics, thus ending up where original Latins were.

You are similar case as Slavic input shifted you back north. And that is why you don't register much Illyrian in modeling which is only thing that matters.

Honesty your post is embarassingly stupid.

There's no theory, there is no E-V13 present in Illyrians in any significant number and you have less than 50% of their ancestry.

Deal with it.

:lol: Same as Spanish that come out as Illyrians or James Bond thought he was Dutch :lol:
It's ok, you cant help your genetics...

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:29 PM

:lol: Same as Spanish that come out as Illyrians or James Bond thought he was Dutch :lol:
It's ok, you cant help your genetics...

Now I'm starting to believe IQ researches about Albanians reading your replies. Calculators are not designed for Iberians or James Bonds of the world, thus their results are completely meaningless.
Of course Iberians will get artifical Illyrian results since Illyrians were more SW than SE European genetically.

Dušan

09-19-2022, 09:29 PM

I don't support that theory, but central Balkan homeland of proto-Albanians. Something like Dardanians, who were probably Illyrian-Thracian mix.
Name Albania comes from Illyrian tribe Albanoi and in my speculative but not unlikely theory proto-Albanians from around Kosovo moved westward and assimilated people they encountered there.
Btw, Albania was full of Slavic toponymy, that was a n input as well.

they are mix of different Paleo Balkanite tribes plus other stuff.

It should be some remoted mountains where they could avoid Romanisation and kept that weird language they speak to this day.

Bessi were isolated on Bulgarian mountains.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/OdrysianKingdom.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Kosovo is fertile plain where was situated large Roman city of Ulpiana, and Romanisation was intensive.
I am sure Kosovo population spoke Latin (were Vlachs) when Slavs/Serbs came.

Varda

09-19-2022, 09:30 PM

Who even knows all the samples she used. Some of those samples are also outliers. And some of those samples in Montenegro and Northern Albania are clearly close to Albanians together with those samples found in Northern Macedonia as shown by some of the things I have posted here. A calculator normally should be giving like 80% of that at least. And you can easily change the settings to get the desired results. Those samples also have more or less the same components as Albanians too based on what the Albanian member Bruzmi posted on Anthrogenica. I will maybe try and create my own.

Getting populations that has no historic basis can simply be some genetic similarity or calculator effect.

Indeed she has an agenda. I personally never liked this person and for many good reasons. Last person I would be taking genetic or history lessons from.

I don't support that theory, but central Balkan homeland of proto-Albanians. Something like Dardanians, who were probably Illyrian-Thracian mix.
Name Albania comes from Illyrian tribe Albanoi and in my speculative but not unlikely theory proto-Albanians from around Kosovo moved westward and assimilated people they encountered there.
Btw, Albania was full of Slavic toponymy, that was a n input as well.

they are mix of different Paleo Balkanite tribes plus other stuff.

Partly descendants of Dardanians are Kosovo Serbs. Their paleo-Balkanic Y DNA is from Dardanians, and it is very far from Albanian including their E-V13.

Some of the Albanian-Bulgarian matches inside of basic Albanian haplos from early middle age
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY95428/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-KMS66/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY73185/

Rizza

09-19-2022, 09:35 PM

here is biggest proof how you have only minor Illyrian ancestry - Davidski gold standard calculator. Also shows how modern North Italians are not continuity of Iron Age Latins despite being relatively close to them in single pop sharing.

Southern Illyrians from Albania

Target: ALB_Cinamak_Anc
Distance: 0.0202% / 0.02024721
60.4 TUR_Barcin_N
36.5 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.1 WHG

Modern Albanians

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.0236% / 0.02357944
37.1 TUR_Barcin_N
34.9 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.2 WHG
0.8 Han

Modern Albos have 25% of East Med ancestry that was NON EXISTANT in Illyrians.

but later you got some Slavic input that kind of balanced that.

Party is over now, as well as your nationalistic fantasies. You're mostly Paleo Balkan but certainly not mainly Illyrian.

Nope, they actually have the same components as Albanians

Target: Mirdita:AL12Mirdita
Distance: 2.2959% / 0.02295938
61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
36.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8 WHG
0.8 Han

Target: Northwestern_RP_Albania:Lezha
Distance: 3.2704% / 0.03270439
60.8 TUR_Barcin_N
31.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.6 WHG
3.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

Target: Albanians_in_Montenegro:Kraja
Distance: 4.5619% / 0.04561929
58.2 TUR_Barcin_N
38.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 WHG
1.0 Han

Target: Mirdita_RP_Albania:Mirdita2
Distance: 2.5585% / 0.02558529
61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
38.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Albanians_in_Montenegro:Gucia
Distance: 2.9421% / 0.02942079
62.2 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.2 WHG
0.8 Han
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Northwestern_RP_Albania:Toplana1
Distance: 3.1130% / 0.03113028
57.6 TUR_Barcin_N
35.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.2 WHG
0.4 Han

Just some Albanian regions I found posted by Bruzmi

Those two Neolithic samples from Anatolia are more or less the same. Basically just an average and calculator effect I believe . Looks like they can even be added together.

Onlyl wet dreams who are over are pretty much yours.

Hulu

09-19-2022, 09:37 PM

It should be some remoted mountains where they could avoid Romanisation and kept that weird language they speak to this day.

Bessi were isolated

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Kosovo is fertile plain where was situated large Roman city of Ulpiana, and Romanisation was intensive.
I am sure Kosovo population spoke Latin (were Vlachs) when Slavs/Serbs came.

I posted 3 links of famous Illyrians from Dardania who spoke latin, 2 of them emperors. That was just before the Serbs came. Constantine, Justinian, Marcellinus. 565 AD

Rizza

09-19-2022, 09:37 PM

Partly descendants of Dardanians are Kosovo Serbs. Their paleo-Balkanic Y DNA is from Dardanians, and it is very far from Albanian including their E-V13.

Some of the Albanian-Bulgarian matches inside of basic Albanian haplos from early middle age
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY95428/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-KMS66/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY73185/

Maybe in wet Serbian dream . First of all assimilations in these parts of the world have gone in all directions. Second, Serb expansion in Kosovo did not begin until like 12th-13th century. Many Serbs in Kosovo are immigrants from all over the place that came there during the Ottoman period. Many Albanians in Kosovo are also natives.

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:38 PM

Nope, they actually have the same components as Albanians
Just some Albanian regions I found posted by Bruzmi

Post their coords, I want to run them.

Those two Neolithic samples from Anatolia are more or less the same.

Not at all.

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:39 PM

Hulu, I know you have G25. Post your run on Davidski standard calc. But I know you won't because of your huge East Med admix which was not exactly present among Illyrians.
you can prove us wrong.

Hulu

09-19-2022, 09:42 PM

Now I'm starting to believe IQ researches about Albanians reading your replies. Calculators are not designed for Iberians or James Bonds of the world, thus their results are completely meaningless.
Of course Iberians will get artifical Illyrian results since Illyrians were more SW than SE European genetically.

He didnt come Dutch on your calculator. It was another one who uses the same stupid logic :lol: what did you do put magical dust to make it correct for Balkanites but not for Spanish :lol: dont believe your own hype you amateur

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:43 PM

Kosovo is fertile plain where was situated large Roman city of Ulpiana, and Romanisation was intensive.
I am sure Kosovo population spoke Latin (were Vlachs) when Slavs/Serbs came.

There was Kosovo Albanian member with Imperial Roman J2b1 haplogroup for eg., Dema.

Varda

09-19-2022, 09:43 PM

Maybe in wet Serbian dream . Serb expansion in Kosovo did not begin until like 12th-13th century. Serbs in Kosovo are immigrants from all over the place. Many Albanians in Kosovo are natives.

Imbecile, how you explain that Albanian-Bulgarian matches?

Kosovo Serbs have continuity there since middle age. They have high amount of paleo-Balkanic Y DNA unconnected with Montenegrin paleo-Balkanic Y DNA. Kosovo Serbs are probably little more paleo-Balkanic than Slavic autosomally.

Dušan

09-19-2022, 09:45 PM

I posted 3 links of famous Illyrians from Dardania who spoke latin, 2 of them emperors. That was just before the Serbs came. Constantine, Justinian, Marcellinus. 565 AD

It would be interesting to do analysis of some Roman samples from Ulpiana, and see were their haplogroups similar to Albanians, or to paleo-Balkan part of haplogroups among Serbs.

Hulu

09-19-2022, 09:46 PM

Hulu, I know you have G25. Post your run on Davidski standard calc. But I know you won't because of your huge East Med admix which was not exactly present among Illyrians.
you can prove us wrong.

My east med is not high, it's equal to my west med, lower than Italians even. My red sea puts me south. I can post when i have access to my comp, im on my cell and lazy to do that. If i had anything to hide i wouldnt give my results to many ppl here including you

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:46 PM

He didnt come Dutch on your calculator. It was another one who uses the same stupid logic :lol:

No. You just have low IQ and thus connect what has no connection.

what did you do put magical dust to make it correct for Balkanites but not for Spanish :lol: dont believe your own hype you amateur

We are all amateurs but you just don't get even amateur level genetics.
I didn't design calculators for Iberians.

If I did, I would include Celtiberian samples and Moors. Are you that stupid or you really didn't get it until it was explained to you?
If there is lack of relevant samples in a calculator, algorithm will forefully chose most similar stuff from things available.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 09:47 PM

Why is problem if Albanians came to modern Albania as tribe Bessi from territory of todays Bulgaria?
Recent genetic researches clearly show that Thracian hypothesis as true.

Bessi were Hellenized or partly Hellenized

From a linguistic point of view it emerges that the Thracian-Bessian hypothesis of the origin of Albanian should be rejected, since only very little comparative linguistic material is available (the Thracian is attested only marginally, while the Bessian is completely unknown), but at the same time the individual phonetic history of Albanian and Thracian clearly indicates a very different sound development that cannot be considered as the result of one language. Furthermore, the Christian vocabulary of Albanian is mainly Latin, which speaks against the construct of a "Bessian church language".[35] The elite of the Bessi tribe was gradually Hellenized.[36][37] Low level of borrowings from Greek in the Albanian language is a further argument against the identification of Albanian with the Bessi.[38] Also the dialectal division of the Albanian-speaking area in the Early Middle Ages contradicts the alleged migration of Albanians in the hinterland of Dyrrhachium in the first decades of the 9th century AD, especially because the dialectal division of a linguistic space is in general a result of a number of linguistic phenomena occurring during a considerable span of time and requires a very large number of natural speakers.[39]

Albanian dialect split happened before Slavs. Nobody accepts this theory except pseudo intellectuals.

Varda

09-19-2022, 09:47 PM

I posted 3 links of famous Illyrians from Dardania who spoke latin, 2 of them emperors. That was just before the Serbs came. Constantine, Justinian, Marcellinus. 565 AD

Illyrians never lived in Kosovo, they lived in western Balkans. Justinian was born is central part of present day North Macedonia.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 09:51 PM

Imbecile, how you explain that Albanian-Bulgarian matches?

Kosovo Serbs have continuity there since middle age. They have high amount of paleo-Balkanic Y DNA unconnected with Montenegrin paleo-Balkanic Y DNA. Kosovo Serbs are probably little more paleo-Balkanic than Slavic autosomally.

Imbecile, Bulgarian Empire ruled most of the Balkans and Kosovo and settled there before Serbs, some Albanians settled in Bulgaria where are found Arbanas villages.

Imbecile, Kosovo is not yours nor were you the first population there. And most of your historical claims there are false. It is really simple, imbecile. I have already shown enough. Western Kosovo was Albanian before 1690. Bunch of Serbs settled all over Kosovo throughout the entire Ottoman period in especially 1700-1800's and Yugoslav Colonization . Bunch of Montenigrin immigrants.

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:54 PM

Ok I have Hulu coords. She actually doesn't have huge East Med from east Anatolia but she does have Levantine (super East Med?) and some minor Iran stuff for eg. Maybe from Romans.

Target: Hulu(Albanian)
Distance: 0.0221% / 0.02207626

57.9 TUR_Barcin_N
29.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.8 Levant_PPNB
3.3 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 WHG
0.5 Nganassan
0.3 Dinka

Barcin N amount is almost same to southern Illyrians, Yamnaya/WHG is somewhat lower plus exotic stuff.

Varda

09-19-2022, 09:56 PM

Imbecile, Bulgarian Empire ruled most of the Balkans and Kosovo and settled there before Serbs, some Albanians settled in Bulgaria where are found Arbanas villages.

Imbecile, Kosovo is not yours nor were you the first population there. And most of your historical claims there are false. It is really simple, imbecile. I have already shown enough.

Sorry, but genetic and linguistic clearly shows East Balkanite origin of Analbanians. Your wet propaganda 100+ years long about Illyrian origin is debunked by genetic.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 09:57 PM

Post their coords, I want to run them.

Not at all.

I just posted a bunch of Albanian G25 some pages ago when I ran them and compared these ancient samples you can also check out Bruzmi's post here

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26049-Genetic-Origin-of-Albanians/page91&p=874114#post874114

I'd advice to be very careful of how you talk to some of the Albanian female members here btw, the one who is 100% wrong is clearly you. And you clearly don't understand genetics.

Here is an image comparing these samples, Dibra1, Dibra2, Podujeva, Kukes are modern Albanians.

https://i.ibb.co/M2dkym9/G25samples.png

Varda

09-19-2022, 09:58 PM

https://youtu.be/b1yBO0ZavGY

Jana

09-19-2022, 09:58 PM

Sorry, but genetic and linguistic clearly shows East Balkanite origin of Analbanians. Your wet propaganda 100+ years long about Illyrian origin is debunked by genetic.

they are partly Illyrian. I don't understand Illyrian obsession anyway. All west Balkan countries have more E-V13 than J2b2 .

Jana

09-19-2022, 10:01 PM

I just posted a bunch of Albanian G25 some pages ago when I ran them and compared these ancient samples you can also check out Bruzmi's post here

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26049-Genetic-Origin-of-Albanians/page91&p=874114#post874114

I'd advice to be very careful of how you talk to some of the Albanian female members here btw, the one who is 100% wrong is clearly you. And you clearly don't understand genetics.

Here is an image comparing these samples, Dibra1, Dibra2, Podujeva, Kukes are modern Albanians.

https://i.ibb.co/M2dkym9/G25samples.png

Lmao, typical. He DID NOT EVEN USE TUR TEPECIK CIFTLIK average, NO WONDER THEY DON'T SCORE IT.

LOOOOL. You shot yourself with this post, thanks.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 10:05 PM

Sorry, but genetic and linguistic clearly shows East Balkanite origin of Analbanians. Your wet propaganda 100+ years long about Illyrian origin is debunked by genetic.

Here is your origin you little imbecile, some little goat fucker Slavic tribe that were invited by these Croats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia

It was at this point, in the 610s or 620s, that the Emperor of the day (according to a detailed but somewhat confused account by a later Emperor-cum-historian, Constantine Porphyrogenitus) invited the Croats to come down from central Europe and deal with the Avar threat. [6] This they did, bringing with them their neighbours, the Serbs. Both populations then settled in the territories abandoned by the Avars: the Croats in modern Croatia and western Bosnia, and the Serbs in the Rascia area on the north-western side of Kosovo, and in the region of modern Montenegro. In some of these areas they supervened on an already existing Slav population, which, as a result, must gradually have taken on a 'Croat' or 'Serb' identity. The Serbs did not have anything like a state at this stage, but they developed several small tribal territories, each called a zupa and ruled by a tribal chief known as the zupan. [7]

Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century.

It's hilarious how this Ustashe talks about Illyrian origin of Albanians. Your peoples wet phantasies of some kind of native Balkan tribe are over. Your peoples claim on Kosovo has been debunked.

It is game over for you as all the Ancient DNA and history proves.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 10:06 PM

Lmao, typical. He DID NOT EVEN USE TUR TEPECIK CIFTLIK average, NO WONDER THEY DON'T SCORE IT.

LOOOOL. You shot yourself with this post, thanks.

The Tepecik Ciftlik sample is a Neolithic sample you idiot. Same as that other one, both are Neolithic. People score varied . Even among Albanians . As I showed in other posts too .

Varda

09-19-2022, 10:07 PM

they are partly Illyrian. I don't understand Illyrian obsession anyway. All west Balkan countries have more E-V13 than J2b2 .

They got J2b2 most likely because medieval Albanian migrants from Bulgaria assimilated some Romance speaking people of Illyrian origin when they settled in modern Albania.
Albanian language is not of Illyrian origin. Illyrian language was kentum and Albanian is satem. Connection between Albanian and Romanian indicate Thracian/East Balkanic origin of Albanian language. Except East Romance influence in Albanian, exist Albanian substrate in Romanian language.

Jana

09-19-2022, 10:13 PM

The Tepecik Ciftlik sample is a Neolithic sample you idiot. Same as that other one, both are Neolithic.

These are average and no, they are not the same. Non southern Europeans rarely ever score Tepecik Ciftlik. It's shifted closer to the Levant compared to Barcin_N and Imperial Romans had much of it while Iron Age Europeans like Illyrians and Italics did not.

People score varied . Even among Albanians . As I showed in other posts too .

You posted manipulative model that did not include major neolithic average from Davidski run to disprove my runs that shows modern Albanian average have this admix compared to Illyrians.
Shame on you.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 10:29 PM

Lmao, typical. He DID NOT EVEN USE TUR TEPECIK CIFTLIK average, NO WONDER THEY DON'T SCORE IT.

LOOOOL. You shot yourself with this post, thanks.

Lazaridis also says Albanians are more or less the same.

I already posted MyTrueAncestry results of some Albanians

Get's Illyrian as top match . You claimed some ''huge genetic change'' yet this is not what even the evidence shows. It's hilarious you wanna talk about our origin. If we mixed with Thracians or whatever, it shows we are even more Native Balkan than you and can claim them too for example. You're some Slavic tribe not from there. So what is your point ? Neither you nor the Serbs.

North Albania sample:

Distance to: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.03040623 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03081551 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03132625 Italian_Bergamo
0.03134221 Swiss_Italian
0.03137717 Italian_Piedmont
0.03174711 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03312290 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03344434 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03356377 Italian_Tuscany
0.03375936 Italian_Veneto
0.03379613 Greek_Thessaly
0.03406956 Albanian_Korçë
0.03439415 Albanian_Pukë
0.03477466 Albanian_Dibra
0.03490373 Italian_Lombardy
0.03513336 Albanian_Labëria
0.03537663 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03684893 Albanian_Himarë
0.03707327 Italian_Northeast
0.03795358 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03801065 French_Corsica
0.03826424 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03886443 Italian_Umbria
0.03958920 Greek_Macedonia
0.03994990 Italian_Liguria

Ancient North Macedonian sample:

Distance to: MKD_BA:I7231
0.02453354 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02461167 Albanian_Dibra
0.02627658 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02705227 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02792935 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02836361 Greek_Argolis
0.02857725 Albanian_Labëria
0.02860356 Albanian_Pukë
0.02861449 Albanian_Korçë
0.02912992 Greek_Thessaly
0.02915145 Greek_Corinthia
0.02928445 Albanian_Himarë
0.02955332 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02956342 Italian_Tuscany
0.02998214 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03084134 Greek_Messenia
0.03092533 Greek_Achaea
0.03107164 Italian_Umbria
0.03123886 Greek_Arcadia
0.03151459 Italian_Piedmont
0.03168302 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03221895 Italian_Marche
0.03267648 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03268571 French_Corsica
0.03271945 Greek_Elis

You know nothing about history nor genetics. It's a fact. You're some imbecile who is jealous we lived in the Balkans first and I have seen you depict us as invaders.

Bye you loser. I'm not gonna waste my time with you.

Rizza

09-19-2022, 10:31 PM

Lmao some loser who claims Albanians invaded Kosovo after 1690 ''huge population movement'' , claims Ottomans started ethnic conflicts in the Balkans. You're just some Ustashe who spreads Serbo-Chetnik propaganda 24/7 .

Rizza

09-19-2022, 10:40 PM

Rizza

09-19-2022, 11:49 PM

These are mine

Target: xz1333
Distance: 2.1362% / 0.02136161
55.6 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 WHG
4.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

Bruzmi converted it for me from Eurogenes .

Rizza

09-20-2022, 12:29 AM

What the OP basically did is that she went and found my k13 and k15 and converted it but when I ran this myself I get mostly Illyrian

Target: xz1333
Distance: 1.3538% / 0.01353813 | R3P
67.2 Illyrian-North-Albania
21.4 Thracian-Iron-Age
11.4 Baltic_IA

I did not even add Macedonian samples or many other samples nor created an average. Reduced it to 3 populations since it gave me bunch of other Illyrian samples from CROATIA. I also did not add Illyrians from Montenegro nor Ancient Macedonians.

Distance to: xz1333
0.02568326 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.02677144 HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.02834579 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.02864584 HRV_EIA:I23995
0.02899049 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.02986283 HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03165586 HRV_EIA:I26742
0.03213899 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747
0.03364178 HRV_EIA:I24639
0.03364603 HRV_IA:I5729
0.03391375 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.03518854 HRV_IA:I3313
0.03541985 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
0.03561604 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.03582766 HRV_IA:I5724
0.03609775 HRV_IA:I5723
0.03614074 HRV_EIA:I24882
0.03991025 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253
0.04078600 HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027
0.04148001 HRV_EIA:I23911
0.04209743 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18752
0.04225336 HRV_EIA:I23996
0.04269267 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688
0.04361311 HRV_EIA:I24638
0.04374528 HRV_IA:I5725

100% Fail Thread.

Rizza

09-20-2022, 12:49 AM

My east med is not high, it's equal to my west med, lower than Italians even. My red sea puts me south. I can post when i have access to my comp, im on my cell and lazy to do that. If i had anything to hide i wouldnt give my results to many ppl here including you

these calculators are 100% Bullshit, they just model you, results change based on sample or settings, how many populations you limit it to give you. Some are even crap where unneccessary populations are added. I just noticed this . Most important is the % of Neolithic, WHG / HG , and Steppe you have in comparing and also population distance and even then it doesn't really tell you where all your ancestors came from. Some Calcs I tried on this site made by some members here I get modelled as Greek_Myceanean + something more North . But only when I had to reduce the populations because it gave me so much different stuff . And they didn't add all the samples of course. It is possible to make a decent one and have fun to play around with it by changing the settings, not taking it as scientific fact, but many of these made by these people are crap pretty much and they even take it as fact lol

Good night.

Rizza

09-20-2022, 01:25 AM

It should be some remoted mountains where they could avoid Romanisation and kept that weird language they speak to this day.

Bessi were isolated on Bulgarian mountains.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/OdrysianKingdom.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Kosovo is fertile plain where was situated large Roman city of Ulpiana, and Romanisation was intensive.
I am sure Kosovo population spoke Latin (were Vlachs) when Slavs/Serbs came.

Bessi were partly Hellenized and lived South of the Jirecek and where taught Christian in their language unlike Albanian who were taught in Latin

The elite of the Bessi tribe was gradually Hellenized

Albanian does preserve a very small quantity of borrowings from ancient Greek;see Thumb, 'Altgriechische Elemente'; Jokl, 'Altmakedonisch'; Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik', p.182. This low level of borrowings from Greek is a further argument against the identification of Albanians with Bessi, part of whose tribal territory was Hellenized: see Philippide, Originea Rominilor, vol. 1, pp 11, 283; Velkov, 'La Thrace', p.188.

Albanian dialect split Gheg and Tosk is believed to of already happened in 400 AD by some. And most linguists accept it happened before 600 AD, before Slavs arrived. Makes the Bessi theory even more impossible.

Even Matzinger who does not support an origin in Albania abandoned this theory . And he knows well we are Illyrian.

in Kosovo lived Vlachs/Romanians/Aromanians and Albanians, mentioned by your people. Your people invaded the area in the 12th-13th century. Historians like Noel Malcolm, Anscombe etc pretty much debunked your peoples claim on that place. It's pretty much game over for you. Your claim on that place is a 19th-20th century nationalist creation as shown by many historians even like Saggau and Melle Haverman that talk about nationalist myths.

As for that ''weird language'' , hilarious from a people who claim pre-Slavic Balkanites and speak such an incredibly ugly language

As for Kosovo, no it wasn't entirely Romanized and sources refer to Dardanian brigands . There were also tribes from North Albania like 'Arboi', Abroi' , Albanoi, Enchele etc that possibly lived in Dardania.

Geni_kameni

09-20-2022, 02:05 AM

Albanians give up whole world knows you are from caucasus

Rizza

09-20-2022, 02:17 AM

Also there is no point in trying to divide Thracian and Illyrian etc. All these ancient samples should be lumped together into Native Balkan . and Slavic / Baltic samples should be compared . Before you were claiming we are 30%-40% Slavic , now it's minor Illyrian lol .... Since I guess you figured out we are mostly native Balkan .

Ajeje Brazorf

09-20-2022, 12:40 PM

Lmao, typical. He DID NOT EVEN USE TUR TEPECIK CIFTLIK average, NO WONDER THEY DON'T SCORE IT.

LOOOOL. You shot yourself with this post, thanks.

TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N is redundant and can be perfectly modeled (look at the fit) with samples that are already included in the standard model.

Target: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
Distance: 1.8855% / 0.01885526
64.6 TUR_Barcin_N
18.2 Levant_PPNB
17.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

Rizza

09-20-2022, 02:23 PM

Even the calculator of this Serb gives me 100% Illyrian https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366420-Post-your-results-using-this-G25-autosomal-calculator

Target: xz1333
Distance: 2.2692% / 0.02269219 | ADC: 2x RC
51.8 HRV_BA
48.2 MNE_LBA

Or models me at least as 2 Illyrians .

I changed the settings and got different type of results. One can basically take whatever results suits you. They didn't use all the samples obviously so not a good calc. One can get an even better fit or distance by using other samples.
I haven't tried to create an average out of some of these Illyrians, few of them are outliers.

The OP even removed the photos in the OP xD Game over for the OP and all these Serbs .

Rizza

09-20-2022, 02:53 PM

TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N is redundant and can be perfectly modeled (look at the fit) with samples that are already included in the standard model.

Target: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
Distance: 1.8855% / 0.01885526
64.6 TUR_Barcin_N
18.2 Levant_PPNB
17.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

lol this is what I was pretty much saying to this idiot

Jana

09-20-2022, 03:05 PM

TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N is redundant and can be perfectly modeled (look at the fit) with samples that are already included in the standard model.

Target: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
Distance: 1.8855% / 0.01885526
64.6 TUR_Barcin_N
18.2 Levant_PPNB
17.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

Thanks for showing it's 35% middle eastern compared to Barcin_N. :P

Albanian ape is just too low IQ to even get the modeling.

Rizza

09-20-2022, 03:07 PM

In Kosovo before Ottoman period there were recorded Croats as Janjevo and there are still to this very day a settlement called Janjevo. YET they claim they assimilated all the natives LOL Let's not even talk about Albanians who there were much more of than Croats , and which many defters show such as Vilajet of Pashtrik in 1452 in South-Western Kosovo that clearly recorded Albanians. Defter of Brankovic 1455 recorded mainly Eastern Kosovo apparently and Timars. Ottomans never did population census on Kosovo, it was mainly people that paid some sort of taxes. Albanians could of easily expanded from a significant minority to demographic majority in Western Kosovo.

Also the biggest demographic growth of Albanians in Kosovo happened from full Ottoman take over after 1448 to 1660 and there is no large scale record of migrations from Northern Albania during that period.

YET they claim they assimilated all the natives LOL

Ajeje Brazorf

09-20-2022, 04:23 PM

rothaer

09-20-2022, 06:18 PM

TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N is redundant and can be perfectly modeled (look at the fit) with samples that are already included in the standard model.

Target: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
Distance: 1.8855% / 0.01885526
64.6 TUR_Barcin_N
18.2 Levant_PPNB
17.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

After it is part of the Davidski "gold standard" (right?), what do you think why?

rothaer

09-20-2022, 06:34 PM

Modern Balkanians/South Slavs vs their Iron Age counterparts

Distance to: Albania_IA
0.03154378 Albanian

Distance to: North_Macedonia_IA
0.05240272 Macedonian

Distance to: Slovenia_IA
0.05972988 Slovenian

Distance to: Croatia_IA
0.06219576 Croatian

Distance to: Bulgaria_IA
0.08573209 Bulgarian

It shows that the Slavic countries experienced a notable bigger turnover since IA than Albania. It has to be taken into account that the Slavic DNA is somewhat "extraterrestrial" on the Balkans prior to that expansion while other possible migrations within the Balkans (like maybe Thracians to Illyria) would have yielded much smaller genetic changes.

Rizza

09-20-2022, 06:44 PM

After it is part of the Davidski Gold standard (right?), what do you think why?

They are both Neolithic samples found in Anatolia I believe. Look at my results. My results are typical for many Northern Albanians. How can I be so Illyrian while my own countrymen not ?

I am 100% Illyrian. I even match samples from Croatia better than the OP. :D

rothaer

09-20-2022, 07:08 PM

They are both Neolithic samples found in Anatolia I believe. Look at my results. My results are typical for many Northern Albanians. How can I be so Illyrian while my own countrymen not ?

I am 100% Illyrian. I even match samples from Croatia better than the OP. :D

My text you commented referred to why Davidski chosed to have that Ciftlik stuff when it is so much redundant with other components. This is generally to be avoided in a calculator.

As for your Albanian / Illyrian topic I've not yet got deeper into that. But I can do.

If I use the Feiichy ancient Slavic calculator 2.0 and do separate the two references for "Balkan", BGR_IA_I5769 and HRV_IA_I3313, which schould be good proxies for Thracians and Illyrians respectively, then the Albanian average from Davidski's spreadsheet gets this result:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.0008% / 0.01000841
36.2 BGR_IA_I5769
30.6 Graeco-Roman
24.4 (Balto-)Slavic
6.2 HRV_IA_I3313
2.2 Turkic
0.4 Balkan

This looks like 6.2% Illyrian. Is your personal result so much differing? Maybe you can tell me your G25 coords for checking.

Ajeje Brazorf

09-20-2022, 07:24 PM

After it is part of the Davidski "gold standard" (right?), what do you think why?

Don't know, it probably improved the fit in qpAdm. The choice of Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps is also strange, instead I would have chosen CHG.

It shows that the Slavic countries experienced a notable bigger turnover since IA than Albania. It has to be taken into account that the Slavic DNA is somewhat "extraterrestrial" on the Balkans prior to that expansion while other possible migrations within the Balkans (like maybe Thracians to Illyria) would have yielded much smaller genetic changes.

Correct.

Rizza

09-20-2022, 07:38 PM

My text you commented referred to why Davidski chosed to have that Ciftlik stuff when it is so much redundant with other components. This is generally to be avoided in a calculator.

As for your Albanian / Illyrian topic I've not yet got deeper into that. But I can do.

If I use the Feiichy ancient Slavic calculator 2.0 and do separate the two refereences for "Balkan", BGR_IA_I5769 and HRV_IA_I3313, which schould be good proxies for Thracians and Illyrians respectively, then the Albanian average from Davidski's spreadsheet gets this result:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.0008% / 0.01000841
36.2 BGR_IA_I5769
30.6 Graeco-Roman
24.4 (Balto-)Slavic
6.2 HRV_IA_I3313
2.2 Turkic
0.4 Balkan

This looks 6.2% Illyrian. Is your personal result so much differing? Maybe you can tell me your G25 coords for checking.

Nope. I already explained how these calculators work some pages ago, regarding the settings etc. I also posted MyTrueAncestry results of Albanians that get Illyrian. I posted the distances that these samples get to Albanian etc. I posted the components of Albanians compared to these samples. Albanian language is linked to Messapic which is believed to of been Illyrian in origin. And You cannot use only some Iron Age sample from Croatia, there are other Iron Age and Bronze Age samples found there also. And there are also samples found in Montenegro, Albania etc.

No we are definitely not 6.2 Illyrian.

Target: xz1333
Distance: 1.3538% / 0.01353813 | R3P
67.2 Illyrian-North-Albania
21.4 Thracian-Iron-Age
11.4 Baltic_IA

I actually should be more or less 100%. Which is pretty much what I get with the right settings. In some calculators I get 60% Greek. Does that mean I am Greek ?

These are my results just playing around. Many samples I did not add such as Montenegro. There are also samples found in North Macedonia.

A calculator cannot also distinguish between so much genetic similarity. Such as Greco-Roman, Illyrian, Thracian etc . Notice how it gives Greco-Roman to your Albanian average. Many Albanians also get Greek. Does that mean we are Greek ? It models you based on the settings and genetic similarity . You can be modelled in many ways.

I already explained how these calculators work. I'm not going to waste my time. Also those Illyrian samples are on average closer to Albanians than those Thracian samples found in Bulgaria. Historically , there is no evidence of any Albanian population there, at least not large so why would you use samples from there to model Albanian in the first place. I'd start with North-Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro where there are actually live historically Albanians.

Rizza

09-20-2022, 07:47 PM

Hulu

09-20-2022, 07:56 PM

Here are my distances to ancient samples, Thracian is not even close:

Distance to: Rizza
0.02568326 North-Albania-Ancient-Illyrian:I14690
0.02587499 Croatia_BronzeAge-Illyrian:I18748
0.02677144 Croatia_BA-Illyrian:I11843
0.02764658 Montenegro_LateBronzeAge-Illyrian:I13777
0.02834579 Croatia_Cetina_BA-Illyrian:I18746
0.02864584 Croatia_EarlyIronAge-Illyrian:I23995
0.02899049 ALB_Cinamak_Anc-Illyrian:I16251
0.02908170 MNE_LBA-Illyrian:I13775
0.02932255 GREECE_Logkas_MiddleBronzeAge:Log02
0.02951690 MONTENEGRO_LateBronzeAge:I13168
0.02985509 Macedonian_Ancient:I10384
0.02986283 Croatia_EarlyIronAge:I23904
0.03010667 Serbia-Vojvodina_Mokrin_EarlyBronzeAge:MOK17A
0.03024217 Macedonia_BronzeAge:I7231
0.03104714 MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03165586 HRV_EIA:I26742
0.03190018 MNE_LBA:I13169
0.03197951 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.03213899 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747
0.03275880 HRV_BA:I5080
0.03300178 MKD_Anc:I10385
0.03305005 MNE_LBA:I13172
0.03322855 HRV_BA:I18712
0.03324344 HRV_BA:I5074
0.03325913 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

It's mostly just Illyrian.

Some of these calculators even give people like 30% Slavic and Germanic or variations. They should not be taken literally .

You start off by comparing yourself mostly with samples from the area where you live today or are from. It's not like the people there magically disappeared out of thin air. As you can see , samples in Albania and West Balkan match Albanians pretty well. I already showed that.

My text you commented referred to why Davidski chosed to have that Ciftlik stuff when it is so much redundant with other components. This is generally to be avoided in a calculator.

As for your Albanian / Illyrian topic I've not yet got deeper into that. But I can do.

If I use the Feiichy ancient Slavic calculator 2.0 and do separate the two references for "Balkan", BGR_IA_I5769 and HRV_IA_I3313, which schould be good proxies for Thracians and Illyrians respectively, then the Albanian average from Davidski's spreadsheet gets this result:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.0008% / 0.01000841
36.2 BGR_IA_I5769
30.6 Graeco-Roman
24.4 (Balto-)Slavic
6.2 HRV_IA_I3313
2.2 Turkic
0.4 Balkan

This looks like 6.2% Illyrian. Is your personal result so much differing? Maybe you can tell me your G25 coords for checking.

It's obviously a flawed calculator given his distances.

Rizza

09-20-2022, 08:03 PM

It's obviously a flawed calculator given his distances.

Here is another result where many Illyrian samples were not even added

Target: Rizza
Distance: 2.2692% / 0.02269219 | ADC: 2x RC
51.8 Croatia_BronzeAge
48.2 Montenegro_LateBronzeAge

Look at the distance, now look at the distance here

Target: Rizza
Distance: 1.3538% / 0.01353813 | R3P
67.2 Illyrian-North-Albania
21.4 Thracian-Iron-Age
11.4 Baltic_IA

Just changing the settings , changes the results , pretty much . Models you in many different ways . I can easily make myself 100% Illyrian if I want with these calcs, I just didn't bother creating averages out of these samples etc.

But I cannot make myself 100% Thracian. It is actually impossible for me because most of these Thracian samples are extremely Southern, like Myceaneans . At max, I could maybe try and give myself 30%-40% Thracian maybe or something.
Unless we use some Thracian outliers who cluster all over the place like Northern, Western Europeans etc There was one that clustered like a North-East Italian as an outlier .

In some Calcs I even got like 30% Celtic + 60% Ancient Greek .

Hulu

09-20-2022, 08:07 PM

Jana

09-20-2022, 08:17 PM

Lol, please. I figured this stuff out years and years ago back when you thought you were Illyrian-Gothic lol. you only recently discovered that you are Slavic. Talk about low iq.
All my theories have come to fruition with this paper but I understand the scientific way of coming to conclusions unlike you. Your posts have ulterior movies to it, they are not written in a professional manner but to troll.
Don’t be rude and have some respect, you make sweeping generalisations about our origins and when we defend ourselves you reply with racism. You absolute crackhead.

Nah. You're a nasty bitch and you have low knowledge about genetics. And don't quote me from now on. You won't get a reply.

Hulu

09-20-2022, 08:17 PM

Jana

09-20-2022, 08:20 PM

It's obviously a flawed calculator given his distances.

His distances are meaningless if he gets Illyrian only when he forces the calculator to chose it because they are only samples available.
When calculator freely choses that's an accurate model given logical samples from historical perspective.
Btw, ideal distance is 1-1.5

That being said he does have more Illyrian than average Albo since he is pretty NW autosomaly and J2b2.
It's still much lower than he wished, but he simply does not get how modeling works.

Jana

09-20-2022, 08:33 PM

So, has your opnion changed?

Yeah, I think you may have some late Roman/Greek input. Because of Levant/IRN Ganj_Dareh_N. Thracians don't have that either.

Hulu

09-20-2022, 08:40 PM

Yeah, I think you may have some late Roman/Greek input. Because of Levant/IRN Ganj_Dareh_N. Thracians don't have that either.

So I am Illyrian mostly ;)

rothaer

09-20-2022, 08:47 PM

Nope. I already explained how these calculators work some pages ago, regarding the settings etc. I also posted MyTrueAncestry results of Albanians that get Illyrian.

MyTrueAncestry? Are you kidding to quote MTA?

I posted the distances that these samples get to Albanian etc.

But you don’t see that distances for modern Albanians that also do have some 25% Slavic will ineveitable pull northwards towards general Illyrians compared to Thracians?

And You cannot use only some Iron Age sample from Croatia, there are other Iron Age and Bronze Age samples found there also. And there are also samples found in Montenegro, Albania etc.

No we are definitely not 6.2 Illyrian.

I re-calculated with Albania IA insted of HRV IA and you are right, now that gets 13.0%:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.9760% / 0.00975991
32.4 BGR_IA_I5769
30.0 Graeco-Roman
22.0 (Balto-)Slavic
13.0 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
2.6 Turkic

Target: xz1333
Distance: 1.3538% / 0.01353813 | R3P
67.2 Illyrian-North-Albania
21.4 Thracian-Iron-Age
11.4 Baltic_IA

Can you show what you do provide in the source for that modelling?

The used by me Feiichy ancient Slavic 2.0 calculator is well considerd and posted at TA, but I can show the source if you are interested.

I actually should be more or less 100%. Which is pretty much what I get with the right settings. In some calculators I get 60% Greek. Does that mean I am Greek ?

Why do you put such stupid questions?

These are my results just playing around. Many samples I did not add such as Montenegro. There are also samples found in North Macedonia.

A calculator cannot also distinguish between so much genetic similarity. Such as Greco-Roman, Illyrian, Thracian etc . Notice how it gives Greco-Roman to your Albanian average. Many Albanians also get Greek. Does that mean we are Greek ? It models you based on the settings and genetic similarity . You can be modelled in many ways.

This is true, so a suitable calculator should select its components along what was historically available in the area in question. Exactly this is done in the calulator I used.

I already explained how these calculators work. I'm not going to waste my time.

You can be assured that your time is not more valuable than mine. Regardless of that I know how calculators work.

Also those Illyrian samples are on average closer to Albanians than those Thracian samples found in Bulgaria.

Yes and I explained why this is the case, also if you have just 13% Illyrian from Albania (or 6.2% from Croatia).