Origin of J2b2-L283

[Bart0s]

J-L283 is a haplogroup which spread with Yamnaya migrations in the Balkans and the first J-L283 to be found in Europe comes from Late Yamnaya Moldova (ca. 3000 BCE, unpublished). Phylogeographer mentions the same sample in this video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=277JV-hiwwM



So J2b2-L283 is confirmed Yamnaya and not Bell Beaker , together with R-Z2103/R-PF7563 they were found in Maros, Iron Age Albania etc and was found in Maykop and are present among the Iapygians of Illyrian origin and J-L283 was a major lineage among Illyrians found in the Bronze Age Cetina culture of the Western Balkans: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326044535_The_Cetina_phenomenon_across_the_Adriati c_during_the_2nd_half_of_the_3rd_millennium_BC_new _data_and_research_perspectives .

Today they also make up some of the most common Albanian lineages.


They have nothing to do with Bell Beaker, Corded Ware or any kind of Italic or Celts who belonged to different branches of R1b. And there is nothing that supports an origin from there. Oldest J2b2 we have are from the Balkans and areas close to the Steppes.


Those two Etruscan J2b2 are of Balkan origin and post date Illyian movements into Italy. Illyrian J2b2 came into conflict with Bell Beaker, Slovenia was a contact zone of Celts, Italics, Illyrians etc. so we see some Bell Beaker derived R1b around those areas.


E-V13 is a marker which is not even related to the Steppes at this point but we will eventually see where it fits.



Iron Age Balkans was different from Iron Age Italy or Iberia, autosomally Iron Age Italy mainly overlapped with the Northern Balkans. Many autosomal overlaps are nothing but coincidences.

[Bart0s]

This Y-DNA has nothing to do with any Bell Beakers or Corded Ware

''The Y-chromosome composition of Beaker-associated males was dominated by R1b-M269 (Supplementary Table 4), a lineage associated with the arrival of Steppe migrants in central Europe after 3000 BCE2,3. Outside Iberia, this lineage was present in 84 out of 90 analysed males. For individuals in whom we could determine the R1b-M269 subtype (n=60), we found that all but two had the derived allele for the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism, which defines the dominant subtype in western Europe today14. In contrast, Beaker-associated individuals from the Iberian Peninsula carried a higher proportion of Y haplogroups known to be common across Europe during the earlier Neolithic period2,4,15,16, such as I (n=5) and G2 (n=1), while R1b-M269 was found in four individuals with a genome-wide signal of Steppe-related ancestry (the two with higher coverage could be further classified as R1b-S116/P312). Finding this widespread presence of the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism in ancient individuals from central and western Europe suggests that people associated with the Beaker Complex may have had an important role in the dissemination of this lineage throughout most of its present-day distribution.
''

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?367575-The-Beaker-Phenomenon-and-the-Genomic-Transformation-of-Northwest-Europe

Not a single BB J2b2 sample or CW

All the oldest samples we have are from the Balkans and the Steppes , it's presence across the Adriatic in Italy and Sardinia is the result of the spread of Illyrians across the Adriatic and proto-Illyrian Cetina culture such as Messapic / Iapygian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

[tipirneni]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2449/ Branch of J2b2 is heavily Indian South Asian maybe close to 100M people are present in South Asia. Even though it is 7k YBP origin none of the aDNA records in India found so far. It is heavily mixed into Tribals and Lower strata meaning it came atleast >4k ybp but so far no aDNA found for a separate culture

[zebruh]

J-L283 is a haplogroup which spread with Yamnaya migrations in the Balkans and the first J-L283 to be found in Europe comes from Late Yamnaya Moldova (ca. 3000 BCE, unpublished). Phylogeographer mentions the same sample in this video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=277JV-hiwwM



So J2b2-L283 is confirmed Yamnaya and not Bell Beaker , together with R-Z2103/R-PF7563 they were found in Maros, Iron Age Albania etc and was found in Maykop and are present among the Iapygians of Illyrian origin and J-L283 was a major lineage among Illyrians found in the Bronze Age Cetina culture of the Western Balkans: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326044535_The_Cetina_phenomenon_across_the_Adriati c_during_the_2nd_half_of_the_3rd_millennium_BC_new _data_and_research_perspectives .

Today they also make up some of the most common Albanian lineages.


They have nothing to do with Bell Beaker, Corded Ware or any kind of Italic or Celts who belonged to different branches of R1b. And there is nothing that supports an origin from there. Oldest J2b2 we have are from the Balkans and areas close to the Steppes.


Those two Etruscan J2b2 are of Balkan origin and post date Illyian movements into Italy. Illyrian J2b2 came into conflict with Bell Beaker, Slovenia was a contact zone of Celts, Italics, Illyrians etc. so we see some Bell Beaker derived R1b around those areas.


E-V13 is a marker which is not even related to the Steppes at this point but we will eventually see where it fits.



Iron Age Balkans was different from Iron Age Italy or Iberia, autosomally Iron Age Italy mainly overlapped with the Northern Balkans. Many autosomal overlaps are nothing but coincidences.

There is no confirmation of J-L283 being yamnaya yet.
Stop spreading mis information.
There is a strong belief that it is.
But it is not confirmed.
There is no J-L283 yamnaya samples found.
And people are waiting for the sudy of the samples from moldava but it is waiting to be finished being done. The information regarding this study isn't out yet so we dont know what it will say.

[Bart0s]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2449/ Branch of J2b2 is heavily Indian South Asian maybe close to 100M people are present in South Asia. Even though it is 7k YBP origin none of the aDNA records in India found so far. It is heavily mixed into Tribals and Lower strata meaning it came atleast >4k ybp but so far no aDNA found for a separate culture

100 mill in an area of a billion still makes it a minority doesn't it ? Depends also how many studies have been conducted.

J-L283 in Europe is not very common https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/ , In the Balkans most of it found seems https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/ but there are some others that have been found. Albanians fall under many but is dominated by https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/ which is a branch of Z597. Lazaridis and Reich put the proto-IE homeland in West Asia / Caucasus and this Y-DNA most likely did not exist in Europe prior to the Bronze Age just like Indo European markers like R1b-Z2103 and others didn't but are related to Bronze Age expansion which we can also trace.

Here is a map of all Ancient J-L283 found: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1luwBVUlmGoqbj7yzO2tyKKIJlvh7mtQX&hl=en_US&ll=45.38463613022078%2C21.31617461230349&z=6


We have dozzens of samples all across West Europe and Central Europe from different periods, this Y-DNA keeps showing up in the Balkans during the Bronze Age and it's presence in other parts of Europe seems to be an expansion from there and it appears with R1b-Z2103 around the Balkans and close to the Steppes.


No serious geneticist considers IE languages in the Balkans to of come from Corded Ware or Bell Beakers , neither culturally nor genetically and this Y-DNA is absent among these cultures. It appears when Indo Europeans started expanding directly from the Steppes with certain cultures. In Bronze Age Maros Culture in Northern Serbia it appears together with R1b-Z2103.


This Y-DNA seems to be related to R1b-Z2103 Yamnaya or was picked up by such people at one point and in the Adriatic coast it hit a founder effect from few Illyrian tribes.


J-L283 according to Y-FULL has a TMRCA of 5600 YBP or so.

[Bart0s]

It is possible this Y-DNA was found in Copper Age Moldova around 3000 - 4000 BC , there are rumours about an unpublished sample which he talks about, so if that turns out it's possible this Y-DNA was picked up around there or migrated to the Western Balkans during Bronze Age. Though some put Steppe migrations to of happened earlier . Steppe migrants were largely R1b-Z2103 but among Thracians there are even samples found of R1a-Z93

[Bart0s]

This new unpublished sample could aswell be some kind of Early Indo European that roamed around the Steppes 4000-3000 BCE from Copper Age to Bronze Age transition. It apparently is a J2b2 with Steppe + Neolithic ancestry

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Indo-European_expansions.jpg/1920px-Indo-European_expansions.jpg

[zebruh]

This new unpublished sample could aswell be some kind of Early Indo European that roamed around the Steppes 4000-3000 BCE from Copper Age to Bronze Age transition. It apparently is a J2b2 with Steppe + Neolithic ancestry

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Indo-European_expansions.jpg/1920px-Indo-European_expansions.jpg

I don't know what sample you're talking about.
Ive only heard a rumor of some sample ive heard was of sredny stog.
That it speculated to be a j2b subclade between J2b2-L283 and j2b.

Not that it was J2b2-L283.
If you're talking about this sample where do you get that it was J2b2-L283?

[Bart0s]

I don't know what sample it is. Weather it is J-L283 or what it is. We will see. This dude above mentioned me on another forum claims cultures such as Cetina, Maros, Vucedol are Bell Beaker derived. These people are nuts. Some other nutcase Brazilian dude claims J2b2-L283 expanded from central Europe and conquered R1b-Z2103 and claims this is what the genetic data supports when in fact it doesn't . R1b-Z2103 is in general considered to be the source of IE languages in the Balkans directly from Yamnaya.

[Bart0s]

There is nothing Bell Beaker about this Y-DNA you nutcase stop mentioning me on other forums

[Bart0s]

''When we use DATES (19) to date the admixture of steppe ancestry in populations of Southeastern Europe (Fig. 5F and fig. S6), we arrive
at an estimate that this took place ~4850 years ago, i.e., precisely after the Yamnaya expansion, and within the time frame of our “highsteppe” cluster individuals. This suggests that (as a first approximation) steppe ancestry in Southeastern Europe from the Bronze Age onward was largely mediated by descendants of Yamnaya and local Balkan populations and not by earlier waves out of the steppe that affected the region sporadically. This admixture need not have taken place in one locality, as indicated by the presence of Yamnaya-like individuals in several regions of the Balkans, spatially beyond both the cultural transition
zone between steppe pastoralist and settled populations (32), and the geographical one from the Eastern European flatlands into mountainous areas.''

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/8_25_2022_Manuscript1_ChalcolithicBronzeAge_2.pdf

[Bart0s]

from the Genomi History of SE:

''Farming was first introduced to Europe in the mid-7th millennium BCE–associated with migrants from Anatolia who settled in the Southeast before spreading throughout Europe. To understand the dynamics of this process, we analyzed genome-wide ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between 12,000 and 500 BCE. We document a West-East cline of ancestry in indigenous hunter-gatherers and–in far-eastern Europe–early stages in the formation of Bronze Age Steppe ancestry. We show that the first farmers of northern and western Europe passed through southeastern Europe with limited hunter-gatherer admixture, but that some groups that remained mixed extensively, without the male-biased hunter-gatherer admixture that prevailed later in the North and West. Southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between East and West, with intermittent genetic contact with the Steppe up to 2000 years before the migrations that replaced much of northern Europe’s population.''

[tipirneni]

100 mill in an area of a billion still makes it a minority doesn't it ? Depends also how many studies have been conducted.

J-L283 in Europe is not very common https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/ , In the Balkans most of it found seems https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/ but there are some others that have been found. Albanians fall under many but is dominated by https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/ which is a branch of Z597. Lazaridis and Reich put the proto-IE homeland in West Asia / Caucasus and this Y-DNA most likely did not exist in Europe prior to the Bronze Age just like Indo European markers like R1b-Z2103 and others didn't but are related to Bronze Age expansion which we can also trace.

Here is a map of all Ancient J-L283 found: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1luwBVUlmGoqbj7yzO2tyKKIJlvh7mtQX&hl=en_US&ll=45.38463613022078%2C21.31617461230349&z=6


We have dozzens of samples all across West Europe and Central Europe from different periods, this Y-DNA keeps showing up in the Balkans during the Bronze Age and it's presence in other parts of Europe seems to be an expansion from there and it appears with R1b-Z2103 around the Balkans and close to the Steppes.


No serious geneticist considers IE languages in the Balkans to of come from Corded Ware or Bell Beakers , neither culturally nor genetically and this Y-DNA is absent among these cultures. It appears when Indo Europeans started expanding directly from the Steppes with certain cultures. In Bronze Age Maros Culture in Northern Serbia it appears together with R1b-Z2103.


This Y-DNA seems to be related to R1b-Z2103 Yamnaya or was picked up by such people at one point and in the Adriatic coast it hit a founder effect from few Illyrian tribes.


J-L283 according to Y-FULL has a TMRCA of 5600 YBP or so.

The J2a Iran Neolithic sites are found all over South Asia but the J2b not found anywhere. However J2b people are 2 times that of J2a found today in South Asia. One study found there is a coincidence between j2b clades and the presence of Mesolithic mounds.

HG J2b2-M241–related microsatellite variance is higher in Uttar Pradesh near the border of Nepal. It should be noted that numerous Mesolithic sites have been observed in this region (Sengupta et al. – 2006)

Many are saying it is a demic diffusion from Iranian towns but the timeframes are still not right due to no aDNA found so far. Compared to this void in J2b, J2a samples have been found in many places in Neolithic and Chalcolithic towns in Indus Valley Periphery. The overall spread of J2b2 is also very similar to H1a haplogroup in India and BD.