Study highlights modern European Jews have *MINIMAL* Mena ancestry

[Serif]

Lastest study on the Erfurt paper have shown that Ashkenazi Erfurt Jews (pre Eastern Europe settled, Rhineland Jews) can be modeled via qpAdm as the following:

51% Greek, 32% ME (Middle Eastern), & 17% East-EU (East European).

The funny thing is Modern European (Ashkenazi) Jews can be modeled as 84% Erfurt Jew + 16% Slavic or 86% Erfurt Jew + 14% German.
So, in short, Modern European Jews can be said to have around 1/3 or 1/5 MENA admixture. And part of this MENA admixture also comes from other sources like North Africans, 5-10% of it being. So, we can finally lay down this preposterous 50-70% Levantine admixture premise to rest, it's dead.


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.13.491805v1.full

[Fortnite777]

This ignores that Greeks and Southern Italians also have MENA though. Albeit I think Western Jews are more Anatolian/Syrian Greek than they are Israelite

[Serif]

This ignores that Greeks and Southern Italians also have MENA though. Albeit I think Western Jews are more Anatolian/Syrian Greek than they are Israelite
Bare in mind that qpAdm has outright rejected North Italians as a source for the Rhineland Jews in favor of South Italian and Greek sources. South Italians are about 45% Italian, that is, Northern Italian. Next is Greek at 35%, and the remainder of that 20% being North African and MENA sources. So even if that percentage was added it would only add a miniscule percentage, such that would be almost in the single digits.

For example a model for an Erfurt Jew: 70% South Italian, 15% ME, & 15% East EU. Take what we know and do some calculating will have you a total of 29% MENA, hence lines up pretty close for the model above in the original post.

[SouthDutch7991]

This ignores that Greeks and Southern Italians also have MENA though. Albeit I think Western Jews are more Anatolian/Syrian Greek than they are Israelite

Just to argue devils advocate ( these numbers look too low to me personally ), the argument is essentially what portion of modern ashkenazi ancestry is from imperial era judea. MENA-like ancestry in Italians and Greeks comes from much older migrations and may be arbitrarily non-European considering that it may come from ancient migrations. At which point, considering the already existing overlap between European ancient ancestry and other West Eurasians, it's hard to classify it as truly non-European despite deviating from the farmer-steppe cline.

[Marshall Theodore]

Just to argue devils advocate ( these numbers look too low to me personally ), the argument is essentially what portion of modern ashkenazi ancestry is from imperial era judea. MENA-like ancestry in Italians and Greeks comes from much older migrations and may be arbitrarily non-European considering that it may come from ancient migrations. At which point, considering the already existing overlap between European ancient ancestry and other West Eurasians, it's hard to classify it as truly non-European despite deviating from the farmer-steppe cline.

So Ashkenazi are european/white?

[Fortnite777]

So Ashkenazi are european/white?

They're still noticeably more Levant-shifted than Southron Italians and Greks. But they're definitely not 50%.

[Marshall Theodore]

They're still noticeably more Levant-shifted than Southron Italians and Greks. But they're definitely not 50%.

35% would be a better estimate?

[J. Ketch]

Modelling them as half 'North Italian' always seemed kind of far-fetched, like they somehow avoided Roman or Southern Italian women for centuries, then moved to Northern Italy after the fall of the Empire and mixed heavily with the local women all of a sudden, en route to France and Germany.

[Fortnite777]

35% would be a better estimate?

Yeah, from what I've run they are usually 30-40 Levant_IA, but my G25 runs with them always seem super janky. It picks really poor European components and models them weirdly too, but with good distances. This is opposed to Southern Itals/Greks and what not, who score like 20-30%


Modelling them as half 'North Italian' always seemed kind of far-fetched, like they somehow avoided Roman or Southern Italian women for centuries, then moved to Northern Italy after the fall of the Empire and mixed heavily with the local women all of a sudden, en route to France and Germany.

Yeah, it especially doesn't make sense since early jews in Italy basically said they all had convert ancestors (presumably Roman) and Jews were kicked out of Rome BECAUSE they were proselytizing during the empire.

[Fortnite777]

35% would be a better estimate?

French/German Jews are high 30s, meanwhile Eastern AJs are like high 20s low 30s. But a lot of German Jews are not true Yekkes, they are recent arrivals from like the 1700s and 1800s

[happycow]

I see. Very interesting...

[Gaditanian]

The news that surprised to no one

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/generalpage/military_service_and_higher_education/es/military_service_and_higher_education.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/www.enlacejudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ejercito-Israel-Mujeres.jpg?fit=1024%2C640&ssl=1

https://imagenes.20minutos.es/files/gallery_desktop_default_content/uploads/imagenes/2006/06/22/471301a.jpg

[JerryS.]

So how much Jewish ancestry does one need to be considered Jewish?

[Smeagol]

So how much Jewish ancestry does one need to be considered Jewish?

According to Hitler it was more than 50%. Anything less fell into a different category.

[FinalFlash]

qpAdm is exactly why G25 shouldn't be taken as gospel. Most of us suspected that your average Ashkenazi is no way 50-70% Levantine on average and this pretty much cements that notion.

[J. Ketch]

The news that surprised to no one

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/generalpage/military_service_and_higher_education/es/military_service_and_higher_education.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/www.enlacejudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ejercito-Israel-Mujeres.jpg?fit=1024%2C640&ssl=1

https://imagenes.20minutos.es/files/gallery_desktop_default_content/uploads/imagenes/2006/06/22/471301a.jpg
Ashkenazi Jews are still considerably lighter than their real genetics would suggest though.


qpAdm is exactly why G25 shouldn't be taken as gospel. Most of us suspected that your average Ashkenazi is no way 50-70% Levantine on average and this pretty much cements that notion.
Not saying G25 is very reliable but how does it contradict in this case?

[FinalFlash]

Ashkenazi Jews are still considerably lighter than their real genetics would suggest though.


Not saying G25 is very reliable but how does it contradict in this case?

Because as per qpAdm, they aren't 50-70% Levantine like G25 suggests. They are around 30% Levantine on average.

[J. Ketch]

Because as per qpAdm, they aren't 50-70% Levantine like G25 suggests. They are around 30% Levantine on average.
Honestly I think they're only 50-70% Levantine on G25 if you manipulate the modelling that way.

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 2.3523% / 0.02352348
48.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.2 Armenia_EBA
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.6 Morocco_Iberomaurusian
5.2 Ganj_Dareh_N
2.6 Levant_N
2.0 WHG

The fault lies with the earlier academic estimates that suggested they're over half Middle Eastern.

[Tooting Carmen]

30-35% Middle Eastern is hardly 'minimal'. Though yes, they are predominantly European and look it too.

[Parthia]

Why do Jews only have southern Italian blood and not northern? Like many claim they took southern Italian woman (Romans) as wives but why only southern? The north Italians are closer to the ancient romans too IIRC.

[Kenshiro]

Ashkenazi Jews are still considerably lighter than their real genetics would suggest though.


Not saying G25 is very reliable but how does it contradict in this case?
a user had put this data, using Tuscans as a proxy for Southern Europe, Samaritans for Levant and Tunisians for North Africa and adding an Eastern Europe, I don't know exactly where, this is the result
127086
127087
127088
They have more Mena and less Southern European but also more North European

[Leto]

Ashkenazi Jews are still considerably lighter than their real genetics would suggest though.

I've seen quite a few pictures from Bnei Brak, Israel which is basically an almost entirely Haredi city and some of them looked Middle Eastern, even brown I would say. One can argue those might've been Sephardic/Mizrahi Jews but do Sephardic Haredim wear the same hats now? I mean there are non-Ashkenazi Haredim in Israel (google the Shas party in case you wanna know more) but I would imagine they should have a tradition of their own.