Is this chart of genetic distances in European populations wrong?

[PaganPoet]

https://i.redd.it/gn794ozht90z.jpg

According to Septentrion, it is: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?284325-Who-is-fairer-Spanish-Basques-or-Northern-Italians-from-Trentino-Alto-Adige&p=7659874&viewfull=1#post7659874 Because it puts Belgians out of the Northwestern cluster, which is total blasphemy for him.

But is it really?
Does it contradict this?: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SU_xP1DlJgI/W_5xwKsE2iI/AAAAAAAAHV4/C-f36cURkDIkutMJFSsR_1Tq4Ds4_mGugCLcBGAs/s1600/G25_North_Euro_LDA.png

[Beowulf]

Distance to: Belgian_simulated
0.02325080 Great_Britain_&_Ireland:English
0.02639265 Great_Britain_&_Ireland:Scottish
0.02688522 Northwest_Germanic:Belgian
0.02915855 Northwest_Germanic:Dutch
0.03098276 Southwest_Germanic:Swiss_German
0.03311156 France:French_Paris
0.03636689 East_Germanic:German_East
0.03903369 Scandinavian:Swedish
0.04601046 Pannonia:Hungarian
0.04952084 West_Balkans:Croatian
0.05177963 France:French_Provence
0.06394092 East_Balkans:Romanian
0.06397419 East_Iberia:Spanish_Aragon
0.06500435 Northeast_Europe:Polish
0.06527502 East_Iberia:Spanish_Eivissa
0.06865488 Basque:Basque_Spanish
0.06949350 West_Iberia:Spanish_Andalucia
0.07000734 West_Iberia:Portuguese
0.07151088 East_Balkans:Bulgarian
0.07229059 Northeast_Europe:Ukrainian
0.07587284 North_Italy:Italian_Liguria
0.08055625 West_Russia:Russian_Smolensk
0.08830935 Tuscany:Italian_Tuscany
0.08924954 Finland:Finnish
0.09092320 West_Balkans:Albanian


btw is weird that Iberians are quite close to sardininans because sardinians are more isolated:

Distance to: Spain
0.00960869 East_Iberia:Spanish_Aragon
0.01233951 East_Iberia:Spanish_Eivissa
0.01419394 West_Iberia:Spanish_Andalucia
0.01681776 West_Iberia:Portuguese
0.02591866 France:French_Provence
0.03581197 Basque:Basque_Spanish
0.03964032 North_Italy:Italian_Liguria
0.04014005 France:French_Paris
0.04036781 Southwest_Germanic:Swiss_German
0.04742528 Northwest_Germanic:Belgian
0.04922515 Tuscany:Italian_Tuscany
0.05782206 East_Balkans:Romanian
0.06156666 East_Balkans:Bulgarian
0.06317958 West_Balkans:Albanian
0.06811779 Great_Britain_&_Ireland:English
0.07041538 South_Italy:Sicilian_West
0.07237613 West_Balkans:Croatian
0.07241182 Great_Britain_&_Ireland:Scottish
0.07250718 Northwest_Germanic:Dutch
0.07316564 Pannonia:Hungarian
0.07729484 Aegean:Greek_Peloponnese
0.07876488 South_Italy:Italian_Apulia
0.07957486 East_Germanic:German_East
0.08752676 Scandinavian:Swedish
0.08871205 Sardinia:Sardinian

[PaganPoet]

Belgian_simulated


Why simulated?

[Beowulf]

Why simulated?

it's a sample originally from K13 and it was simulated to G25

another one:
Distance to: Belgium
0.01667973 France:French_Nord:N_19
0.01681061 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634024
0.01952770 France:French_Nord:N_52
0.02140263 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634018
0.02142131 France:French_Nord:N_33
0.02150058 France:French_Nord:N_48
0.02169791 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634041
0.02199953 France:French_Nord:N_80_2
0.02212635 France:French_Nord:N_34
0.02212992 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Swiss_German5
0.02232507 France:French_Nord:N_42
0.02244404 France:French_Nord:N_7
0.02300938 France:French_Nord:N_21_2
0.02349348 France:French_Nord:N_44
0.02368267 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633949
0.02388750 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM567341
0.02425252 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633936
0.02430479 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00236
0.02434071 France:French_Nord:N_9_2
0.02460918 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633946
0.02463932 France:French_Nord:N_60_2
0.02466968 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00255
0.02481178 France:French_Nord:N_40
0.02501969 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633977
0.02533535 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634004
0.02533848 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633969
0.02534095 France:French_Nord:N_37
0.02548951 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00259
0.02557260 France:French_Nord:N_45
0.02561423 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German44
0.02562744 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM566788
0.02563769 France:French_Auvergne:C_82
0.02575586 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00235
0.02606343 France:French_Nord:N_54
0.02617237 Scandinavia:Danish:GSM1985821
0.02631528 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633993
0.02636654 France:French_Nord:N_79
0.02653101 France:French_Nord:N_5
0.02659031 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German55
0.02665067 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633972
0.02669660 France:French_Nord:N_55
0.02687196 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German70
0.02690065 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German48
0.02704229 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00239
0.02710597 France:French_Nord:N_98
0.02712837 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634039
0.02733188 France:French_Nord:N_22
0.02737567 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German60
0.02765978 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM567027
0.02776716 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634009
0.02785951 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM567070
0.02791929 France:French_Nord:N_28
0.02796030 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00261
0.02811820 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633962
0.02813883 France:French_Nord:N_2
0.02820801 Great_Britain_Ireland:Irish:Irish12
0.02828421 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM567333
0.02844623 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM566785
0.02847652 France:French_Nord:N_47
0.02849845 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German37
0.02849989 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German3
0.02855463 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Swiss_German4
0.02858417 France:French_Auvergne:C_34
0.02860522 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM567110
0.02860932 France:French_Nord:N_50
0.02877566 France:French_Auvergne:C_16
0.02882818 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633937
0.02884917 France:French_Nord:N_35
0.02892554 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633931
0.02893001 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German30
0.02900723 France:French_Nord:N_1
0.02904640 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German54
0.02906859 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Swiss_German6
0.02911303 Great_Britain_Ireland:Irish:Irish32
0.02921594 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM567111
0.02921962 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German72
0.02924621 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1633983
0.02966744 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM567029
0.02967896 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Swiss_German7
0.02976016 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German78
0.02990435 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Swiss_German3
0.03000488 Scandinavia:Danish:GSM1985714
0.03001701 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634016
0.03002688 France:French_Nord:N_46
0.03004484 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German29
0.03015652 Scandinavia:Danish:GSM1985812
0.03020255 France:French_Auvergne:C_5_2
0.03036457 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German5
0.03041945 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:German:German22
0.03042317 France:French_Nord:N_15
0.03047170 France:French_Auvergne:C_13
0.03050372 Great_Britain_Ireland:Orcadian:HGDP00805
0.03063282 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634043
0.03067648 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.03069110 France:French_Nord:N_36
0.03079009 France:French_Auvergne:C_18
0.03079898 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634017
0.03083061 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00160
0.03095417 Great_Britain_Ireland:English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.03099212 Germanic_People_of_CentralEurope:Dutch:GSM1634035

[gixajo]

It´s quite good, but it´s a dendrogram a type of clustering graphic representation to appreciate the grouping relationships between the data and even between groups of them, although this lineal type not so clearly shows the relationships of similarity or closeness between categories.

Euclidean distances between references are more a distance in their location of hypothetical plots in an specific PCA than a true genetic distance ,although they can be more or less coincidents,or at least they should have a proportional relationship with real genetic distances.

I mean, you can call it "genetic distance" but they are not, because they would show a distance between coordinates based on genetic data, but the real genetic distances are not distances between coordinates, they are based on matches with SNPs or chains of SNPs.

[gixajo]

[

According to Septentrion, it is: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?284325-Who-is-fairer-Spanish-Basques-or-Northern-Italians-from-Trentino-Alto-Adige&p=7659874&viewfull=1#post7659874 Because it puts Belgians out of the Northwestern cluster, which is total blasphemy for him.

But is it really?
Does it contradict this?: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SU_xP1DlJgI/W_5xwKsE2iI/AAAAAAAAHV4/C-f36cURkDIkutMJFSsR_1Tq4Ds4_mGugCLcBGAs/s1600/G25_North_Euro_LDA.png

I don't really care which cluster the Belgians are grouped into specifically with K13 or similar, honestly.

In any case, in the G25 there are different Belgian references, some more "French-like" (more central European) and others more "Dutch-like".(more NW European).

[J. Ketch]

It's based on a bunch of preliminary K36 averages (with few samples) from Lukasz and Peterski a few years ago.

A more accurate up to date version.
https://i.postimg.cc/PdYc0G73/k36-dendrogram.png

[J. Ketch]

At the end of the day Belgians fall under the definition of Northwest European. Accept it and move on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Europe

Geographically, Northwestern Europe usually consists of the United Kingdom, Ireland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Northern France, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Iceland.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] Switzerland, Finland, and Austria are also often considered part of Northwestern Europe.[5][6][8][9][10][11][12] Southern France is not regarded as northwestern, as it is usually geographically and culturally considered part of the Mediterranean region or Southern Europe.[13][14]
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Northwestern_Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29. svg

[PaganPoet]

At the end of the day Belgians fall under the definition of Northwest European. Accept it and move on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Europe

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Northwestern_Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29. svg

We are talking about genetics here, not geography. So no "move on".

[Monapps]

We are talking about genetics here, not geography. So no "move on".

They're pretty much interchangeable. It's not like Belgians are a tribe from a land far away that moved recently into Belgium.

[PaganPoet]

They're pretty much interchangeable.

Nope.

[J. Ketch]

We are talking about genetics here, not geography. So no "move on".
Genetically too.

Distance to: Flemish
4.03924498 Dutch_South
4.33751081 Afrikaner
4.35568594 Walloon
4.64293011 German_South
4.87007187 German_North_Rhine
4.93024340 German_Rhineland-Palatinate_East_of_Rhine
5.49470654 German_Rhineland-Palatinate
5.68371357 French_Hauts-de-France
5.83831311 French_Normandy
6.04245811 English_East-Midlands
6.17130456 German_Hesse_South
6.20748741 German_Baden-Württemberg
6.31097457 Swiss_German
6.43424432 English_Southeast
6.53781309 English_East
6.64021084 English_West-Midlands
6.82434612 English
6.94443662 German_Bavaria_Oberpfalz
7.01173302 German_Saarland
7.25470882 German

FST chart
https://i.postimg.cc/B6LGFp0Z/FST-9.jpg

[Coastal Elite]

At the end of the day Belgians fall under the definition of Northwest European. Accept it and move on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Europe

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Northwestern_Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29. svg

So Alsace gets in by the skin of their teeth? I need more detail regarding borderline communities and I'm putting it all in your hands.

[Monapps]

Nope.

Yes, they are.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735096/