Pannonian Cumans on G25

[axlredneck]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/State_of_Cuman-Kipchak_%2813.%29_en.png/1280px-State_of_Cuman-Kipchak_%2813.%29_en.png


While the Hungarian tribes moved into Hungary, the Cumans still inhabited the vast areas of the Pontic–Caspian steppe, where they had created a powerful nomadic confederacy. The 13th-century Gesta Hungarorum claims that Cumans were present in the Principality of Hungary ca. 900, describing the Aba tribesmen as Cumans.

[axlredneck]

NKper2, Cuman

Y-DNA: R-Y147335 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y147335/) / R-Y147340 (https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y147340/tree)
mtDNA: C4-a3a (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/C4-a3a/)
Period: Principality of Hungary
Age: 900 - 1000 CE
Region: Nagykőrös, Hungary


HUN_Conqueror_elite:NK2,0.07057,-0.19092,0.065996,-0.01292,-0.048932,-0.00753,0.018096,0.018692,-0.005113,-0.003827,-0.01835,-0.002698,-0.000743,-0.000826,0.005022,0.001591,0.000391,0.000253,-0.007542,-0.00025,-0.008235,-0.012489,-0.010476,-0.006868,-0.009101
https://i.ibb.co/8YfDTwG/IMG-20230904-145705.jpg

[axlredneck]

K1per3286, Cuman

Y-DNA: R-Y14509 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14509/) / R-PRX9 (https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PRX9/tree)
mtDNA: H3am (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H3am/)
Period: Principality of Hungary
Age: 895 - 950 CE
Region: Karos, Hungary


HUN_Conqueror_elite:K13286,0.068294,-0.192951,0.054682,-0.010982,-0.037545,-0.019243,0.011281,0.008538,-0.011658,-0.00164,-0.015914,-0.004796,0.001487,-0.009909,-0.002172,0.003447,0.009648,0.003167,-0.003897,0.009505,-0.011105,0.002473,-0.000986,0.002771,0.001676
https://i.ibb.co/7RSVvkD/IMG-20230904-145725.jpg

[axlredneck]

K2per61, Cuman + Magyar

Y-DNA: R-Y14509 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14509/) / R-PRX9 (https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PRX9/tree)
mtDNA: U4d2e (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4d2e/)
Period: Principality of Hungary
Age: 895 - 950 CE
Region: Karos, Hungary

https://i.ibb.co/q92jt3L/IMG-20230904-145640.jpg

[axlredneck]

K2per61, Cuman + Magyar


HUN_Conqueror_elite:K261,0.067156,-0.160454,0.071653,0.026486,-0.051086,-0.013387,0.012456,0.007384,-0.008999,-0.01221,0.007632,-0.004496,0.001189,-0.026561,0.001221,-0.01074,-0.005867,-0.000127,0.000503,-0.002501,-0.001622,0.006306,-0.00037,-0.004458,0.000838
Cuman,0.0715497,-0.1914873,0.0559366,0.0075644,-0.0412843,-0.0126619,0.0103699,0.0099816,-0.0065738,-0.0011669,-0.0110278,0.0012518,-0.0064357,-0.002615,0.0106448,-0.0048602,-0.0076278,0.0016897,0.0034098,0.005972,0.0030049,-0.0047128,-0.0054303,-0.0065954,0.0032054
Ugric,0.0870747,-0.1652267,0.1100061,0.0617576,-0.0731829,-0.021084,0.0080607,0.0149301,0.001043,-0.0346065,0.0506652,-0.0041213,0.0211841,-0.0705318,-0.0246334,-0.0127417,-0.0009257,-0.0004433,-0.0067247,-0.012781,-0.0024956,0.0233827,0.0150733,-0.0027112,-0.0073646
Bulgar,0.0901031,-0.0761796,0.0473007,0.0256367,-0.0378287,-0.0032599,0.0034884,0.0032268,-0.0141765,-0.0164131,-0.0050452,0.0006254,-0.001584,-0.0174378,0.0085131,0.0006616,-0.0033171,-0.0000665,0.0006416,0.0047729,-0.0097415,0.0001463,-0.0033737,0.0013826,-0.0013235
Noise,-12.44767532,6.606885849,-3.370168948,-3.59812985,1.655142075,1.236853519,3.820298164,-3.594007426,-4.330119514,3.367918549,-5.172234764,-3.658708808,-3.318003413,3.305118191,4.047354142,-3.627204234,-1.292250731,-0.797743268,1.232937853,-1.303518489,-0.973408148,-0.101017336,-2.870551705,-0.3191362,2.155097955
Magyar,0.087833317,-0.142920312,0.094298335,0.052709278,-0.064326637,-0.016619045,0.006915334,0.011998412,-0.0027695,-0.030049035,0.036709689,-0.002932247,0.015480668,-0.0572317,-0.016330169,-0.00938416,-0.001524748,-0.000348911,-0.004879435,-0.00838373,-0.004310705,0.017561959,0.010452308,-0.001685699,-0.005851299

https://i.ibb.co/kB9CSpv/IMG-20230904-145952.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/QDjBDqN/IMG-20230904-145615.jpg

[axlredneck]

Cuman_Pannonia_avg,0.0701379,-0.1917861,0.0588715,-0.0054459,-0.0425871,-0.013145,0.013249,0.0124039,-0.0077816,-0.0022113,-0.0150973,-0.0020807,-0.0018972,-0.00445,0.0044983,0.0000593,0.0008037,0.0017032,-0.0026764,0.0050757,-0.005445,-0.0049096,-0.0056308,-0.0035641,-0.0014065

https://i.ibb.co/yRjCfGY/IMG-20230904-150535.jpg

[Demirkazık]

Couldn't they be Pechenegs instead of Cumans and what is your thoughts on the Medieval Ploiești sample ?

Target: Demirkazık_scaled
Distance: 3.2355% / 0.03235486
50.2 Anatolian
16.8 Georgian
10.0 Cuman
10.0 Magyar
9.2 Bulgar
3.6 Ugric
0.2 Noise

[axlredneck]

Couldn't they be Pechenegs instead of Cumans and what is your thoughts on the Medieval Ploiești sample ?

That's certainly plausible! Ploiești_MA is most likely a Pecheneg.

[axlredneck]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Nte-kir-aba.jpg


Samuel Aba reigned as King of Hungary between 1041 and 1044. He was born to a prominent family with extensive domains in the region of the Mátra Hills.

According to the anonymous author of the Gesta Hungarorum, Samuel's family descended from two "Cuman" chieftains, Ed and Edemen, who received "a great land in the forest of Mátra" from Árpád, Grand Prince of the Hungarians around 900.

[Max18]

Great job on this thread as well as the previous ones! I would like to share my results based on your sources: Slavic, Finnic, Ugric, Early Bulgar (from Danubian Bulgar thread), Caucasus, Balkan, Cuman. I'm half russian with german ancestry and half volga tatar. My Y-DNA is J2-M92.
Target: Max_scaled
Distance: 2.7895% / 0.02789530
68.0 Slavic
20.8 Bulgar
11.2 Balkan

[dviz]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/State_of_Cuman-Kipchak_%2813.%29_en.png/1280px-State_of_Cuman-Kipchak_%2813.%29_en.png

Fantasy map. Cumans never had the power to keep together such a confederacy.

Besides, showing Vlachs in present-day Greece/Bulgaria on the map, but not in Romania, I can tell that this map has a Hungarian source :lol:
In reality, Cumans were a tiny nomad population in the area of Romania, Vlachs were far more numerous.

[Max18]

And another results with Late Bulgar from this thread
Target: Max_scaled
Distance: 2.7628% / 0.02762787
70.8 Slavic
23.8 Bulgar
5.0 Balkan
0.4 Ugric

[sage]

Fantasy map. Cumans never had the power to keep together such a confederacy.

Besides, showing Vlachs in present-day Greece/Bulgaria on the map, but not in Romania, I can tell that this map has a Hungarian source :lol:
In reality, Cumans were a tiny nomad population in the area of Romania, Vlachs were far more numerous.

You think that is bad ? You should look at English Wikipedia the Hungarians have a monopoly on the Romanian pages

[axlredneck]

Great job on this thread as well as the previous ones! I would like to share my results based on your sources: Slavic, Finnic, Ugric, Early Bulgar (from Danubian Bulgar thread), Caucasus, Balkan, Cuman. I'm half russian with german ancestry and half volga tatar. My Y-DNA is J2-M92.
Target: Max_scaled
Distance: 2.7895% / 0.02789530
68.0 Slavic
20.8 Bulgar
11.2 Balkan

I'm glad you like my threads :)
Mind sharin' your coordinates?

[Max18]

yeah, ofc:)
Max_scaled,0.127482,0.074134,0.057699,0.053295,0.0 18773,0.011156,0.00611,0.010615,-0.001023,-0.01385,-0.000812,-0.007643,0.013677,0.008395,-0.005565,0.016971,0.017602,0.004814,0.001885,0.002 251,-0.008735,-0.003586,0.003821,-0.001084,-0.001078

[Ahmet]

Target: Ahmet_scaled
Distance: 2.6182% / 0.02618195
47.2 Anatolian
32.8 Caucasian
20.0 Bulgar

[DomitiusAurelian]

Target: Domitius_scaled
Distance: 1.7843% / 0.01784349
67.6 Anatolian
30.8 Bulgar
1.6 Magyar

[DomitiusAurelian]

And another results with Late Bulgar from this thread
Target: Max_scaled
Distance: 2.7628% / 0.02762787
70.8 Slavic
23.8 Bulgar
5.0 Balkan
0.4 Ugric

Are you Turkic?

[Voskos]

No cuman matches, unless it's captured in the Croats.

Target:
Distance: 1.6166% / 0.01616610
32.0 Croatia_Medieval
28.6 Israel_C
19.0 Czech_Medieval
17.8 Armenia_EBA_KuraAraxes_Kalavan
2.6 Albania_Medieval

[Demirkazık]

Are you Turkic?

Hoş geldin bandan kurtulmuşsun :D

Yarı yarıyaymış, yarı Rus+Alman yarı Tatar. Y-DNA'sı karışımından çok daha ilginç.

[Max18]

Are you Turkic?

my mom is 1/4 german + 3/4 russian, my father is volga tatar. And my y-dna is J2-m92

[Demirkazık]

my mom is 1/4 german + 3/4 russian, my father is volga tatar. And my y-dna is J2-m92

Any idea where your Y-DNA comes from and which subclade it belongs to ?

[Max18]

Any idea where your Y-DNA comes from and which subclade it belongs to ?

I did my dna test at myheritage and accordingly I got my Y-DNA data through morleydna. Not sure about the subclade.
As for where this Y-DNA came from - no idea :D
I only know that this variant of Y-DNA is not very common among Volga Tatars. Perhaps it is really an echo of Bulgars or something like that.
What is interesting, according to illustrativedna in mode Ancient Populations 'Mixed Mode' Three Way almost all results look as follows: 50% Balt + 25% Archaic Greek (or Albanian) + 20-25% Tian Shan Hun (or Saka of the central steppe/Pazyryk culture/Cimmerians/Magyars).


Experimental tree
123114

ISOGG tree
123115

[Demirkazık]

I did my dna test at myheritage and accordingly I got my Y-DNA data through morleydna. Not sure about the subclade.
As for where this Y-DNA came from - no idea :D
I only know that this variant of Y-DNA is not very common among Volga Tatars. Perhaps it is really an echo of Bulgars or something like that.
What is interesting, according to illustrativedna in mode Ancient Populations 'Mixed Mode' Three Way almost all results look as follows: 50% Balt + 25% Archaic Greek (or Albanian) + 20-25% Tian Shan Hun (or Saka of the central steppe/Pazyryk culture/Cimmerians/Magyars).


Experimental tree
123114

ISOGG tree
123115

Your Y-DNA is very strange, never seen it in among Tatars.


These are my results from IllustrativeDNA:

https://i.ibb.co/prHjMrb/Screenshot-4.png

[Max18]

my results)
123116

[DomitiusAurelian]

Your Y-DNA is very strange, never seen it in among Tatars.


These are my results from IllustrativeDNA:

https://i.ibb.co/prHjMrb/Screenshot-4.png

Bunda Medieval Turkic kaç aga %35-40 vardır herhalde

[axlredneck]

...

Welcome back! :)

[axlredneck]

...

I've subtracted your ancestry. Shall I post your results here?

[Max18]

I've subtracted your ancestry. Shall I post your results here?

yea, why not

[axlredneck]

yea, why not

Alright!

[axlredneck]

https://i.ibb.co/chj7y4n/IMG-20230906-160915.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/31T0FxC/IMG-20230906-160811.jpg

[axlredneck]

Max_scaled,0.127482,0.074134,0.057699,0.053295,0.0 18773,0.011156,0.00611,0.010615,-0.001023,-0.01385,-0.000812,-0.007643,0.013677,0.008395,-0.005565,0.016971,0.017602,0.004814,0.001885,0.002 251,-0.008735,-0.003586,0.003821,-0.001084,-0.001078
Dad,0.109780137,0.027965647,0.058866931,0.04564629 9,0.002347519,0.006877816,0.003624299,0.007390232, 0.001490447,-0.012548575,0.001242386,-0.004169566,0.005731814,-0.002322077,-0.00292633,0.016083523,0.011487438,1.3869E-05,-0.000159946,0.003408204,-0.00546036,0.002442676,0.005353007,-0.004287188,-0.00014413
Mom,0.1343111,0.1262113,0.0674575,0.0550109,0.0371 704,0.018886,0.0105681,0.01236,-0.0027482,-0.0174948,-0.0028266,-0.0081726,0.0147638,0.0180286,-0.0094454,-0.002946,0.0022044,0.0011046,0.004038,0.001618,-0.0026751,-0.0047066,0.0045102,-0.0048388,0.0006623
Noise,5.5706926,-2.8282622,-5.395758,3.0214114,-0.9487891,-1.707022,-0.9756314,0.752244,-0.3968717,1.1541927,-0.0227196,-1.4800896,3.4439568,0.5597671,0.6114196,10.3992925 ,10.7582859,4.2558701,-0.049989,-0.260484,-4.6699451,-2.4587446,-1.1060933,3.4741552,-1.3364227
Early_Bulgar,0.0844921,-0.1165335,0.0589304,0.0493156,-0.0437049,-0.0001119,0.0003026,0.0072331,-0.0024851,-0.0212453,0.0026067,-0.0059204,0.0094303,-0.01682,0.0143982,0.0235416,0.0003504,-0.0006366,-0.0035192,0.0017572,-0.0030738,0.0071264,0.0058148,-0.0051215,-0.0024396
Balkan,0.125205,0.148267,0.018102,-0.028101,0.029236,-0.016176,0.00141,-0.003231,0.008999,0.03262,0.005846,0.005095,-0.017691,-0.007844,-0.027551,0.003978,0.027772,0.005448,0.008547,-0.004877,-0.015473,0.004204,0.003328,0.006025,-0.00012
Slavic,0.130771,0.1310554,0.0801574,0.0800759,0.04 12042,0.0269958,0.0086038,0.0131371,0.0021263,-0.0262209,-0.0027388,-0.0070118,0.0137546,0.0172405,-0.00994,0.0138528,0.0157579,-0.0020861,-0.0008607,0.0096484,-0.002957,-0.0038654,0.0058833,-0.0087322,0.0024824

https://i.ibb.co/y5NRhkw/IMG-20230906-160840.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Lv6fC2K/IMG-20230906-160900.jpg

[axlredneck]

Early Bulgar + Balkan (in your case) / Early Bulgar + Balkan + Anatolian + Caucasus = Early Volga Bulgar

[axlredneck]

J-M92's distribution:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlBQ2jdxwGVLUX8CxEGTvw1TRIzjg57 rwqQQ&usqp=CAU

In your case, it prolly came with the Balkan ancestry!

[Max18]

Awesome work! Very interesting results and as I understand a bit atypical for my dad. Very high percentage of Balkans. Although, interestingly enough, he always reminded others of a representative of finnish ethnicities: tall height (194 cm), very light skin, light brown hair, gray-green eyes.

[axlredneck]

Although, interestingly enough, he always reminded others of a representative of finnish ethnicities: tall height (194 cm), very light skin, light brown hair, gray-green eyes.

Genotype and phenotype don't correlate.

[Max18]

Genotype and phenotype don't correlate.
Yeah, ofc. Studying genetics even at the most philistine level has opened my eyes to this fact, even though it's probably pretty obvious to many.

[Flashball]

Genotype and phenotype don't correlate.

The statement that "genotype and phenotype are not correlated" is largely incorrect, depending on the context in which it is made.

Genotype vs Genome
It's important to distinguish between the "genotype" and the "genome." The genome encompasses the complete set of an individual's genetic material. The genotype, on the other hand, often refers to a more limited set of genetic variations relevant to a specific trait or set of traits. For example, the specific alleles you have for a gene determining eye color constitute a genotype for that particular trait.

In the context of commercial genetic tests like 23andMe, the term "genotype" can be misleading. These tests only cover about 0.2% of an individual's genetic variations, making it more appropriate to talk about the genome as a whole rather than the genotype when discussing the basis for various traits and characteristics.

Correlation between Genotype and Phenotype
The correlation between genotype and phenotype can vary depending on the trait in question and its heritability. For traits that are strictly genetic, like certain monogenic diseases (caused by mutations in a single gene), the link between genotype and phenotype is very strong. For complex polygenic traits influenced by multiple genes and also by environmental factors (like height or intelligence), the relationship is more nuanced but still present.

The Impact of the Environment
The environment can also play a significant role in the expression of phenotype. For instance, two plants with the same genotype can have different phenotypes if one is grown in full sun and the other in shade.

Conclusion
Thus, it's incorrect to say that genotype and phenotype are not correlated. They are generally correlated, but the strength of this correlation can vary considerably depending on a range of factors, including environmental impact and the complexity of the trait in question. The phenotype is, in a way, a complex manifestation of the genome.

[Ahmet]

The statement that "genotype and phenotype are not correlated" is largely incorrect, depending on the context in which it is made.

Genotype vs Genome
It's important to distinguish between the "genotype" and the "genome." The genome encompasses the complete set of an individual's genetic material. The genotype, on the other hand, often refers to a more limited set of genetic variations relevant to a specific trait or set of traits. For example, the specific alleles you have for a gene determining eye color constitute a genotype for that particular trait.

In the context of commercial genetic tests like 23andMe, the term "genotype" can be misleading. These tests only cover about 0.2% of an individual's genetic variations, making it more appropriate to talk about the genome as a whole rather than the genotype when discussing the basis for various traits and characteristics.

Correlation between Genotype and Phenotype
The correlation between genotype and phenotype can vary depending on the trait in question and its heritability. For traits that are strictly genetic, like certain monogenic diseases (caused by mutations in a single gene), the link between genotype and phenotype is very strong. For complex polygenic traits influenced by multiple genes and also by environmental factors (like height or intelligence), the relationship is more nuanced but still present.

The Impact of the Environment
The environment can also play a significant role in the expression of phenotype. For instance, two plants with the same genotype can have different phenotypes if one is grown in full sun and the other in shade.

Conclusion
Thus, it's incorrect to say that genotype and phenotype are not correlated. They are generally correlated, but the strength of this correlation can vary considerably depending on a range of factors, including environmental impact and the complexity of the trait in question. The phenotype is, in a way, a complex manifestation of the genome.

I believe what he meant is you can't make genotype assumptions based on phenotype and vice versa

[Rumata]

Hello axlredneck. Your map is Steppe bull shit as Caucasian mountains around my parts were ruled by any nomads never in known history.

[axlredneck]

Hello axlredneck. Your map is Steppe bull shit as Caucasian mountains around my parts were ruled by any nomads never in known history.

Like I give a damn! I found it on Google Images.

[axlredneck]

...

This👇

I believe what he meant is you can't make genotype assumptions based on phenotype and vice versa

[Max18]

This map is used quite often in various sources (I saw something similar in a history textbook of Kazakhstan when I lived there). As a rule, these are absolutely inaccurate borders, but rather places of nomadic movements of these individuals. Nomadic states in general are quite a specific thing.

the map from the kazakh textbook I mentioned above
123125

[Rumata]

Like I give a damn! I found it on Google Images.

That's right: bull shit images for a bull shit thread.

https://i.ibb.co/wYKy4ZW/index.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Zohor]

That's right: bull shit images for a bull shit thread.

https://i.ibb.co/wYKy4ZW/index.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

This thread is has CUMAN in the name of it therefor it can't be BS

Turanid pride worldwide man

[axlredneck]

That's right: bull shit images for a bull shit thread.

https://i.ibb.co/wYKy4ZW/index.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoYFC3HToBlgBKU3ZeeUAmWVKp0Wbxg pUD_g&usqp=CAU

:crazy:

[Rumata]

This thread is has CUMAN in the name of it therefor it can't be BS

Turanid pride worldwide man

All right. I guess horse shit fits better then.

https://static2.bigstockphoto.com/1/6/3/large1500/361177291.jpg

[Rumata]

Man, improve your image search skill before posting any more. But if your nails indeed look like that, take care of them immediately.


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoYFC3HToBlgBKU3ZeeUAmWVKp0Wbxg pUD_g&usqp=CAU

:crazy:

[Flashball]

North Italy samples from the same paper :
https://cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(23)01035-7?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com %2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982223010357%3Fshowall%3D true

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/fine-scale-sampling-uncovers-the-complexity-of-migrations-in-5th%E2%80%936th-century-pannonia.44451/#post-671213

"5th–8th century Italy: Bardonecchia and Torino Lavazza
(Table S1).The two penecontemporary Italian sites of Bardonecchia and Torino Lavazza were included in this study, so as to increase the number of available high-quality Medieval Italian sequenced individuals. These data supplement the often lower-coverage Italian data from Rome from Antonio et al.7"


ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T1__AD_650,0.113823,0.14 8267,0.023004,0.000969,0.039084,-0.002231,0.001175,0.009923,0.012885,0.011116,-0.000974,0.008692,-0.010109,-0.009083,0.00285,0.011668,0.018515,0.003167,0.0007 54,0.000875,0.005366,-0.001237,0.001972,0.009158,-0.0097
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T2__AD_650,0.121791,0.14 6236,0.038089,0.002907,0.040315,0.003904,-0.00846,-0.002077,0.018407,0.025695,0.002436,0.010041,-0.017393,-0.011698,0.005022,0.018165,0.017471,-0.006588,0.006034,-0.004877,0.00262,-0.003957,-0.003328,0.005543,-0.001557
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T6__AD_650,0.119514,0.15 2329,0.036958,-0.010982,0.035391,0.010598,-0.00423,-0.003,0.005727,0.03098,-0.006171,0.002398,-0.016204,-0.000688,0.008279,-0.013922,-0.014994,0.004181,-0.001508,-0.006878,-0.006489,0.005317,-0.002465,0.001928,0.002275
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T7A__AD_650,0.113823,0.1 50298,0.015839,-0.002907,0.031083,0.001116,-0.00611,-0.003,0.015544,0.021868,-0.001786,0.003747,-0.013379,-0.001376,0.00855,-0.002254,0.000652,-0.000253,-0.001634,0.002251,0.005366,-0.000989,0.003204,-0.003133,0.002515
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T8_rid__AD_650,0.1161,0. 139128,0.026398,-0.003876,0.032929,-0.006693,-0.00282,-0.006461,0.005931,0.028976,-0.001461,0.003147,-0.01888,-0.018166,0.002986,0.015778,0.018645,-0.000507,0.011313,0.001876,0.000374,0.004575,-0.001972,-0.006266,0.00467
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T10__AD_650,0.117238,0.1 46236,0.02753,-0.022933,0.032929,-0.003347,0.001645,-0.003923,0.005522,0.032074,-0.00747,0.01124,-0.013528,-0.008395,-0.002579,0.016043,0.014342,0.002407,0.004651,-0.009129,0.000749,0.007914,-0.001602,0.005061,0.007185
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T11__AD_650,0.1161,0.143 19,0.035072,-0.013889,0.040315,0.004741,0.001175,0.006461,0.017 589,0.025149,-0.00682,-0.001798,-0.012636,-0.007156,0.004072,0.006232,0.000913,0.004054,-0.000126,0.00025,0.006738,-0.004699,-0.008134,-0.005784,0.005868
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T12__AD_650,0.114961,0.1 40143,0.02225,-0.006137,0.029544,-0.002789,0.000705,0.002308,0.009204,0.015126,0.003 897,0.016635,-0.014569,-0.004542,-0.00475,-0.000133,0.009388,-0.007095,0.00352,0.002001,-0.000125,0.014838,0.002465,0.001687,-0.001317
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T1US6__AD_550,0.100164,0.146 236,0.019987,-0.022933,0.023389,-0.013108,-0.00564,0.002769,0.013294,0.034807,0.000162,0.0068 94,-0.009514,-0.006744,0.005022,-0.003447,-0.018515,0.007348,-0.003017,-0.015382,-0.01123,0.001978,0.00037,0.001446,0.011137
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T2US16__AD_550,0.111547,0.14 319,0.037712,0.013243,0.028313,0.003068,-0.00517,0.004154,0.014726,0.019135,-0.005684,-0.005395,-0.011298,-0.010459,-0.006107,0.009679,-0.001825,0.012035,0.00352,0.00075,-0.007612,0.006677,0,-0.004699,-0.004191
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T10US67_ind1__AD_550,0.11837 6,0.138112,0.046386,0.020349,0.028928,0.00502,0.00 7755,0.006231,0.006136,-0.002916,-0.005196,0.007194,-0.003865,0.000963,0.009908,-0.008353,-0.008214,0.007475,0.017472,0.001751,0.007986,0.001 978,-0.002588,0.008555,-0.00479
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T10US67_ind2__AD_550,0.12065 2,0.136081,0.035826,0.008398,0.031698,0.003904,-0.00141,0.002077,0.00409,0.020593,-0.006983,0.005695,-0.009366,-0.00523,0.00095,0.00053,-0.002999,-0.000507,-0.00088,0.001501,0.007237,0.007543,0.003204,-0.004699,-0.002994
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T37US60__AD_550,0.104717,0.1 51314,0.010559,-0.031654,0.027697,-0.006414,-0.001645,0.002077,0.00409,0.025513,-0.002923,0.009292,-0.016799,0.012799,0.003122,-0.00411,-0.017471,-0.000633,0.003017,0.001126,-0.003868,0.002226,-0.011216,-0.008194,-0.002395
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T38US344__AD_550,0.09675,0.1 42174,0.009428,-0.031331,0.024928,-0.016176,-0.00705,-0.006923,0.015339,0.023326,0.000325,0.003297,-0.005649,-0.009221,-0.009365,0.006497,0.003129,-0.005701,0.006159,-0.002501,-0.003993,0.013354,0.003574,-0.00012,-0.010059
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T90US339__AD_550,0.113823,0. 13405,0.004903,-0.018411,0.017542,-0.010877,0.00047,-0.004615,0.00225,0.008383,0.007632,-3e-04,-0.001189,-0.006193,0.003936,0.004641,0.002217,0.000633,0.002 137,0.000625,-0.00549,0.001113,0.003574,0.008194,-0.005628

[Flashball]

North Italy samples from the same paper :
https://cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(23)01035-7?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com %2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982223010357%3Fshowall%3D true

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/fine-scale-sampling-uncovers-the-complexity-of-migrations-in-5th%E2%80%936th-century-pannonia.44451/#post-671213

"5th–8th century Italy: Bardonecchia and Torino Lavazza
(Table S1).The two penecontemporary Italian sites of Bardonecchia and Torino Lavazza were included in this study, so as to increase the number of available high-quality Medieval Italian sequenced individuals. These data supplement the often lower-coverage Italian data from Rome from Antonio et al.7"


ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T1__AD_650,0.113823,0.14 8267,0.023004,0.000969,0.039084,-0.002231,0.001175,0.009923,0.012885,0.011116,-0.000974,0.008692,-0.010109,-0.009083,0.00285,0.011668,0.018515,0.003167,0.0007 54,0.000875,0.005366,-0.001237,0.001972,0.009158,-0.0097
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T2__AD_650,0.121791,0.14 6236,0.038089,0.002907,0.040315,0.003904,-0.00846,-0.002077,0.018407,0.025695,0.002436,0.010041,-0.017393,-0.011698,0.005022,0.018165,0.017471,-0.006588,0.006034,-0.004877,0.00262,-0.003957,-0.003328,0.005543,-0.001557
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T6__AD_650,0.119514,0.15 2329,0.036958,-0.010982,0.035391,0.010598,-0.00423,-0.003,0.005727,0.03098,-0.006171,0.002398,-0.016204,-0.000688,0.008279,-0.013922,-0.014994,0.004181,-0.001508,-0.006878,-0.006489,0.005317,-0.002465,0.001928,0.002275
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T7A__AD_650,0.113823,0.1 50298,0.015839,-0.002907,0.031083,0.001116,-0.00611,-0.003,0.015544,0.021868,-0.001786,0.003747,-0.013379,-0.001376,0.00855,-0.002254,0.000652,-0.000253,-0.001634,0.002251,0.005366,-0.000989,0.003204,-0.003133,0.002515
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T8_rid__AD_650,0.1161,0. 139128,0.026398,-0.003876,0.032929,-0.006693,-0.00282,-0.006461,0.005931,0.028976,-0.001461,0.003147,-0.01888,-0.018166,0.002986,0.015778,0.018645,-0.000507,0.011313,0.001876,0.000374,0.004575,-0.001972,-0.006266,0.00467
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T10__AD_650,0.117238,0.1 46236,0.02753,-0.022933,0.032929,-0.003347,0.001645,-0.003923,0.005522,0.032074,-0.00747,0.01124,-0.013528,-0.008395,-0.002579,0.016043,0.014342,0.002407,0.004651,-0.009129,0.000749,0.007914,-0.001602,0.005061,0.007185
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T11__AD_650,0.1161,0.143 19,0.035072,-0.013889,0.040315,0.004741,0.001175,0.006461,0.017 589,0.025149,-0.00682,-0.001798,-0.012636,-0.007156,0.004072,0.006232,0.000913,0.004054,-0.000126,0.00025,0.006738,-0.004699,-0.008134,-0.005784,0.005868
ITA_Bardonecchia_EMA:Bard_T12__AD_650,0.114961,0.1 40143,0.02225,-0.006137,0.029544,-0.002789,0.000705,0.002308,0.009204,0.015126,0.003 897,0.016635,-0.014569,-0.004542,-0.00475,-0.000133,0.009388,-0.007095,0.00352,0.002001,-0.000125,0.014838,0.002465,0.001687,-0.001317
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T1US6__AD_550,0.100164,0.146 236,0.019987,-0.022933,0.023389,-0.013108,-0.00564,0.002769,0.013294,0.034807,0.000162,0.0068 94,-0.009514,-0.006744,0.005022,-0.003447,-0.018515,0.007348,-0.003017,-0.015382,-0.01123,0.001978,0.00037,0.001446,0.011137
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T2US16__AD_550,0.111547,0.14 319,0.037712,0.013243,0.028313,0.003068,-0.00517,0.004154,0.014726,0.019135,-0.005684,-0.005395,-0.011298,-0.010459,-0.006107,0.009679,-0.001825,0.012035,0.00352,0.00075,-0.007612,0.006677,0,-0.004699,-0.004191
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T10US67_ind1__AD_550,0.11837 6,0.138112,0.046386,0.020349,0.028928,0.00502,0.00 7755,0.006231,0.006136,-0.002916,-0.005196,0.007194,-0.003865,0.000963,0.009908,-0.008353,-0.008214,0.007475,0.017472,0.001751,0.007986,0.001 978,-0.002588,0.008555,-0.00479
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T10US67_ind2__AD_550,0.12065 2,0.136081,0.035826,0.008398,0.031698,0.003904,-0.00141,0.002077,0.00409,0.020593,-0.006983,0.005695,-0.009366,-0.00523,0.00095,0.00053,-0.002999,-0.000507,-0.00088,0.001501,0.007237,0.007543,0.003204,-0.004699,-0.002994
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T37US60__AD_550,0.104717,0.1 51314,0.010559,-0.031654,0.027697,-0.006414,-0.001645,0.002077,0.00409,0.025513,-0.002923,0.009292,-0.016799,0.012799,0.003122,-0.00411,-0.017471,-0.000633,0.003017,0.001126,-0.003868,0.002226,-0.011216,-0.008194,-0.002395
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T38US344__AD_550,0.09675,0.1 42174,0.009428,-0.031331,0.024928,-0.016176,-0.00705,-0.006923,0.015339,0.023326,0.000325,0.003297,-0.005649,-0.009221,-0.009365,0.006497,0.003129,-0.005701,0.006159,-0.002501,-0.003993,0.013354,0.003574,-0.00012,-0.010059
ITA_Torino_EMA:To_Lav_T90US339__AD_550,0.113823,0. 13405,0.004903,-0.018411,0.017542,-0.010877,0.00047,-0.004615,0.00225,0.008383,0.007632,-3e-04,-0.001189,-0.006193,0.003936,0.004641,0.002217,0.000633,0.002 137,0.000625,-0.00549,0.001113,0.003574,0.008194,-0.005628

More information on my thread:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?376749-5th%968th-century-North-West-Italy-Bardonecchia-and-Torino-Lavazza&p=7796693#post7796693

[Max18]

I've subtracted your ancestry. Shall I post your results here?

Hi, sorry to post here, but this is the most logical place for me to ask my question to you. Can you help with re-subtracting more refined coordinates of my father given that I now have my mother's coordinates?

[axlredneck]

Hi, sorry to post here, but this is the most logical place for me to ask my question to you. Can you help with re-subtracting more refined coordinates of my father given that I now have my mother's coordinates?

Sure!

[Max18]

Sure!

Great, thank you! Here are the coordinates: mine and my mother's

Max,0.127482,0.074134,0.057699,0.053295,0.018773,0 .011156,0.00611,0.010615,-0.001023,-0.01385,-0.000812,-0.007643,0.013677,0.008395,-0.005565,0.016971,0.017602,0.004814,0.001885,0.002 251,-0.008735,-0.003586,0.003821,-0.001084,-0.001078

Mother,0.12862,0.118817,0.064865,0.060401,0.034468 ,0.016455,-0.001175,0.014538,0.001227,-0.016401,-0.001949,-0.005995,0.007433,0.020506,-0.006379,0.006895,0.003129,0.000887,0.001634,0.002 876,-0.005615,-0.004822,0.003697,-0.005302,-0.000838

[axlredneck]

Great, thank you! Here are the coordinates: mine and my mother's

Max,0.127482,0.074134,0.057699,0.053295,0.018773,0 .011156,0.00611,0.010615,-0.001023,-0.01385,-0.000812,-0.007643,0.013677,0.008395,-0.005565,0.016971,0.017602,0.004814,0.001885,0.002 251,-0.008735,-0.003586,0.003821,-0.001084,-0.001078

Mother,0.12862,0.118817,0.064865,0.060401,0.034468 ,0.016455,-0.001175,0.014538,0.001227,-0.016401,-0.001949,-0.005995,0.007433,0.020506,-0.006379,0.006895,0.003129,0.000887,0.001634,0.002 876,-0.005615,-0.004822,0.003697,-0.005302,-0.000838


Max,0.127482,0.074134,0.057699,0.053295,0.018773,0 .011156,0.00611,0.010615,-0.001023,-0.01385,-0.000812,-0.007643,0.013677,0.008395,-0.005565,0.016971,0.017602,0.004814,0.001885,0.002 251,-0.008735,-0.003586,0.003821,-0.001084,-0.001078
Dad,0.110694272,0.027737438,0.059562602,0.03751449 3,0.002570019,0.003536709,0.005683376,0.006924021,-0.000942353,-0.011453192,0.004700426,-0.004622979,0.006831507,0.001221285,-0.005538976,0.007824069,0.008588201,0.000911873,0. 00238831,0.001400608,-0.006005552,0.000257507,0.005283635,-0.001106255,-0.000574686
Mother,0.12862,0.118817,0.064865,0.060401,0.034468 ,0.016455,-0.001175,0.014538,0.001227,-0.016401,-0.001949,-0.005995,0.007433,0.020506,-0.006379,0.006895,0.003129,0.000887,0.001634,0.002 876,-0.005615,-0.004822,0.003697,-0.005302,-0.000838
Noise,7.953484,0.975598,-4.449936,4.3976545,0.2884585,1.1766005,3.854637,-0.1014725,-1.1640965,0.060695,-2.189662,-2.3400055,6.5521795,-2.4481365,0.387609,9.6183605,11.7465285,3.9154505,-0.124521,0.115572,-2.930339,-1.3085755,-0.6656205,2.1148255,-0.372495
Bulgar,0.0821894,-0.1176438,0.0666646,0.0449142,-0.0437611,-0.0043067,0.0025089,0.0057826,-0.0033294,-0.0212896,0.0102448,-0.003997,0.007036,-0.015112,0.0137359,0.016648,0.0001025,-0.0004505,-0.0026122,0.0036311,-0.0020258,0.0033915,0.0039346,-0.0001576,-0.0014664
Slavic,0.1352497,0.1232754,0.0776057,0.0706253,0.0 405151,0.0254274,0.0121779,0.0147614,-0.004457,-0.02792,-0.002609,-0.0115698,0.0222445,0.0263872,-0.0143546,-0.0001896,0.0064087,-0.0003677,0.0043893,0.002762,-0.0046831,-0.0059803,0.0081327,-0.0067845,0.000193
Balkan,0.125205,0.148267,0.018102,-0.028101,0.029236,-0.016176,0.00141,-0.003231,0.008999,0.03262,0.005846,0.005095,-0.017691,-0.007844,-0.027551,0.003978,0.027772,0.005448,0.008547,-0.004877,-0.015473,0.004204,0.003328,0.006025,-0.00012

https://i.ibb.co/hRLkP5p/IMG-20230923-000207.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/4Y1KJ8d/IMG-20230923-000103.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/XY8RrTs/IMG-20230923-000121.jpg

[Max18]

Basically, very similar results to the previous one. But there are more Balkans :D

[Leto]

Great job on this thread as well as the previous ones! I would like to share my results based on your sources: Slavic, Finnic, Ugric, Early Bulgar (from Danubian Bulgar thread), Caucasus, Balkan, Cuman. I'm half russian with german ancestry and half volga tatar. My Y-DNA is J2-M92.
Target: Max_scaled
Distance: 2.7895% / 0.02789530
68.0 Slavic
20.8 Bulgar
11.2 Balkan
How much East Eurasian/Mongoloid do you score on average? I used to be well up on GEDmatch calculators but now they've largely fallen out of use, so it seems. I scored like 6-7% and I'm Belorussian and Russian (my mother is from Vyatka).

[Ugo]

How much East Eurasian/Mongoloid do you score on average? I used to be well up on GEDmatch calculators but now they've largely fallen out of use, so it seems. I scored like 6-7% and I'm Belorussian and Russian (my mother is from Vyatka).
Если ты 6-7, сколько наберёт твоя половина? 14-20% монголоидов? Ты не белый

[Leto]

Если ты 6-7, сколько наберёт твоя половина? 14-20% монголоидов? Ты не белый
Stop following me, you stupid son of a gun! I already guess who you are. You can't forgive a person for some bullshit comment made on the Internet years ago. Very sad!

[Max18]

How much East Eurasian/Mongoloid do you score on average? I used to be well up on GEDmatch calculators but now they've largely fallen out of use, so it seems. I scored like 6-7% and I'm Belorussian and Russian (my mother is from Vyatka).

Hi, I'm gaining ~8% on average (that is, I'm gaining between ~6% and ~10% in different tests). This basically matches my results on FTDNA in their ancientOrigins section:
18%
Metal Age Invader
35%
Farmer
39%
Hunter-Gatherer
8%
non-European.

Also you can check your results here: https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateur/108/basic-world-k10-by-tomenable-piotr-kapuscinsk.htm This calculator has a pretty good selection of ancient samples. Here are my results:
Target: Max_scaled
Distance: 3.9733% / 0.03973299 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.8 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.0 West_Eurasian:TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_ZBC_IPB001
20.2 West_Eurasian:UKR_Meso
7.0 East_Eurasian:CHN_Amur_River_8300BP

What is interesting: my results in this calculator are very similar to the results of the Mordovians (Mordovian people are also the closest populations in terms of Euclidean distance).

[Leto]

Hi, I'm gaining ~8% on average (that is, I'm gaining between ~6% and ~10% in different tests). This basically matches my results on FTDNA in their ancientOrigins section:
18%
Metal Age Invader
35%
Farmer
39%
Hunter-Gatherer
8%
non-European.

Also you can check your results here: https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateur/108/basic-world-k10-by-tomenable-piotr-kapuscinsk.htm This calculator has a pretty good selection of ancient samples. Here are my results:
Target: Max_scaled
Distance: 3.9733% / 0.03973299 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.8 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.0 West_Eurasian:TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_ZBC_IPB001
20.2 West_Eurasian:UKR_Meso
7.0 East_Eurasian:CHN_Amur_River_8300BP

What is interesting: my results in this calculator are very similar to the results of the Mordovians (Mordovian people are also the closest populations in terms of Euclidean distance).
Thanks, that's interesting. 8% on average is not a lot for that kind of ethnic background, I guess your mother is close to zero East Eurasian/Mongoloid and some Tatars are below 20% without any recent Russian admixture. I believe Mishars are like 15-17% or so. You must be nearly indistinguishable from full ethnic Russians in terms of looks.

[Max18]

Awesome work! Very interesting results and as I understand a bit atypical for my dad. Very high percentage of Balkans. Although, interestingly enough, he always reminded others of a representative of finnish ethnicities: tall height (194 cm), very light skin, light brown hair, gray-green eyes.

Here's a description of my father's appearance. You can see my phenotype in my avatar.

[Max18]

Thanks, that's interesting. 8% on average is not a lot for that kind of ethnic background, I guess your mother is close to zero East Eurasian/Mongoloid and some Tatars are below 20% without any recent Russian admixture. I believe Mishars are like 15-17% or so. You must be nearly indistinguishable from full ethnic Russians in terms of looks.
Comparing in FTDNA my results and the results of other people with Tatar ancestry I noticed that I have a very low Middle Eastern result, which reaches in Tatars (or people of mixed ancestry) 5-10%+, in return, I have a relatively elevated level of Eastern Slavs (Western Slavs are, as I understand it, a proxy for my German roots, which is supposed to reach 12-12.5%)

123769
123770

I realize that FTDNA is not perfect to say the least, but of all the commercial dna tests available, it is the most accurate (based on tests among my family members).

[Leto]

Comparing in FTDNA my results and the results of other people with Tatar ancestry I noticed that I have a very low Middle Eastern result, which reaches in Tatars (or people of mixed ancestry) 5-10%+, in return, I have a relatively elevated level of Eastern Slavs (Western Slavs are, as I understand it, a proxy for my German roots, which is supposed to reach 12-12.5%)

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I realize that FTDNA is not perfect to say the least, but of all the commercial dna tests available, it is the most accurate (based on tests among my family members).
I manage the account of someone I know, his father is a Southern Russian/Kuban Cossack from Krasnodar krai and his mother is a Tatar from Sterlitamak, Bashkiria. Here are his FTDNA results:


East Slavic 83%
Baltic 8%
Mongolia 5%
Western Siberian Plains <1%
Northern Caucasus <4%

His Dodecad K12b results, which used to be one of the main calculators for me:


Gedrosia 5.27 Pct
Siberian 8.07 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 17.76 Pct
North_European 50.24 Pct
South_Asian 0.44 Pct
East_African 0.24 Pct
Southwest_Asian -
East_Asian 3.75 Pct
Caucasus 14.18 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

About 12% East Eurasian.

[Max18]

I manage the account of someone I know, his father is a Southern Russian/Kuban Cossack from Krasnodar krai and his mother is a Tatar from Sterlitamak, Bashkiria. Here are his FTDNA results:


East Slavic 83%
Baltic 8%
Mongolia 5%
Western Siberian Plains <1%
Northern Caucasus <4%

His Dodecad K12b results, which used to be one of the main calculators for me:


Gedrosia 5.27 Pct
Siberian 8.07 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 17.76 Pct
North_European 50.24 Pct
South_Asian 0.44 Pct
East_African 0.24 Pct
Southwest_Asian -
East_Asian 3.75 Pct
Caucasus 14.18 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

About 12% East Eurasian.

Remembered my Gedmatch password pretty quickly, oddly enough :D

Gedrosia 8.41 Pct
Siberian 6.73 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 20.46 Pct
North_European 46.86 Pct
South_Asian 1.82 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 1.88 Pct
East_Asian 2.15 Pct
Caucasus 11.66 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

8,88% East Eurasian

[Leto]

Remembered my Gedmatch password pretty quickly, oddly enough :D

Gedrosia 8.41 Pct
Siberian 6.73 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 20.46 Pct
North_European 46.86 Pct
South_Asian 1.82 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 1.88 Pct
East_Asian 2.15 Pct
Caucasus 11.66 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

8,88% East Eurasian
Most half-Tatars will have a lower East Eurasian percentage than you do. My mom is a full Russian and she's about 8-9% EE, Perm/Yekaterinburg Russians can easily score 10-13%. But your North European is significantly lower than any of the Russian averages.

Here are the results from my updated K12b oracle, it used to be a big thing for me back in the day:

Distance to: Max18
1.92818064 38.60% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 61.40% Slovak
2.30046995 70.00% Finnish_West + 30.00% Turk_Southwest
2.30966378 68.60% Finnish_West + 31.40% Turk_Northwest
2.36705081 66.40% Hungarian_North + 33.60% Udmurt
2.47479863 38.60% Bashkir_North + 61.40% Slovak
2.48984336 38.60% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 61.40% Hungarian_North
2.51023361 72.40% Finnish_West + 27.60% Turk_Central_Black_Sea
2.51554840 52.80% Slovak + 47.20% Tatar_Kazan
2.54285422 33.20% Czech + 66.80% Tatar_Mishar
2.55203535 36.80% Slovak + 63.20% Tatar_Mishar
2.57398433 36.60% Hungarian_North + 63.40% Tatar_Mishar
2.61510055 42.20% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 57.80% Czech
2.61962537 71.80% Finnish_West + 28.20% Turk_South
2.65834311 35.60% Hungarian_Alföld + 64.40% Tatar_Mishar
2.70898046 70.20% Finnish_West + 29.80% Turk_West_Black_Sea
2.73091572 71.40% Finnish_West + 28.60% Turk_Central_West
2.74332121 33.80% Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest + 66.20% Tatar_Mishar
2.74652613 34.80% Hungarian + 65.20% Tatar_Mishar
2.77054960 29.00% German + 71.00% Tatar_Mishar
2.77755902 53.80% Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest + 46.20% Komi

Slovak is kind of a proxy for 75% Russian, 25% German.

[Max18]

Most half-Tatars will have a lower East Eurasian percentage than you do. My mom is a full Russian and she's about 8-9% EE, Perm/Yekaterinburg Russians can easily score 10-13%. But your North European is significantly lower than any of the Russian averages.

Here are the results from my updated K12b oracle, it used to be a big thing for me back in the day:

Distance to: Max18 1.92818064 38.60% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 61.40% Slovak 2.30046995 70.00% Finnish_West + 30.00% Turk_Southwest 2.30966378 68.60% Finnish_West + 31.40% Turk_Northwest 2.36705081 66.40% Hungarian_North + 33.60% Udmurt 2.47479863 38.60% Bashkir_North + 61.40% Slovak 2.48984336 38.60% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 61.40% Hungarian_North 2.51023361 72.40% Finnish_West + 27.60% Turk_Central_Black_Sea 2.51554840 52.80% Slovak + 47.20% Tatar_Kazan 2.54285422 33.20% Czech + 66.80% Tatar_Mishar 2.55203535 36.80% Slovak + 63.20% Tatar_Mishar 2.57398433 36.60% Hungarian_North + 63.40% Tatar_Mishar 2.61510055 42.20% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 57.80% Czech 2.61962537 71.80% Finnish_West + 28.20% Turk_South 2.65834311 35.60% Hungarian_Alföld + 64.40% Tatar_Mishar 2.70898046 70.20% Finnish_West + 29.80% Turk_West_Black_Sea 2.73091572 71.40% Finnish_West + 28.60% Turk_Central_West 2.74332121 33.80% Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest + 66.20% Tatar_Mishar 2.74652613 34.80% Hungarian + 65.20% Tatar_Mishar 2.77054960 29.00% German + 71.00% Tatar_Mishar 2.77755902 53.80% Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest + 46.20% Komi

Slovak is kind of a proxy for 75% Russian, 25% German..

Thank you! That's interesting, what's the average percentage you think people with similar backgrounds to mine get? Is it +/- 6 percent for example (assuming most half-Tatars have a lower percentage of EE)?

[Max18]

Gedrosia 6.21 Pct
Siberian 2.25 Pct
Northwest_African 1.82 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 24.21 Pct
North_European 52.46 Pct
South_Asian 1.07 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 0.5 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 11.49 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

Here are my mom's results (for the purity of the expert).
Perhaps the small admixture of Siberia in pure European populations is, so to speak, an echo of ANE, which in turn is a small part of EHG.

[Leto]

.

Thank you! That's interesting, what's the average percentage you think people with similar backgrounds to mine get? Is it +/- 6 percent for example (assuming most half-Tatars have a lower percentage of EE)?
You're welcome. I'm not sure what exactly you mean. Volga Tatars are ca. 20 percent East Eurasian on average, some are as low as 15-16% while others are as high as 23-25%. But then again, many self-identified Tatars may be 25% Russian, Bashkir, Siberian Tatar, Chuvash or Mordovian which will be reflected in their East Eurasian admixture. Ethnic Russians can score from 1 to 13 percent depending on the regional ancestry. The average sits somewhere at 5-6%. So a Russo-Tatar is gonna be 10-15 percent EE most of the time. Obviously I'm excluding people with more than two ethnicities in their bloodline.

[Leto]

Gedrosia 6.21 Pct
Siberian 2.25 Pct
Northwest_African 1.82 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 24.21 Pct
North_European 52.46 Pct
South_Asian 1.07 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 0.5 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 11.49 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

Here are my mom's results (for the purity of the expert).
Perhaps the small admixture of Siberia in pure European populations is, so to speak, an echo of ANE, which in turn is a small part of EHG.
Your mom's results are not unusual if she's one quarter German. Germans are zero East Eurasian and if it's the Volga Germans, they moved to Russia from what is now Southwestern Germany, so they would've been close to zero Eastern European/Slavic, pretty much all Celtic-Germanic.

[Max18]

You're welcome. I'm not sure what exactly you mean. Volga Tatars are ca. 20 percent East Eurasian on average, some are as low as 15-16% while others are as high as 23-25%. But then again, many self-identified Tatars may be 25% Russian, Bashkir, Siberian Tatar, Chuvash or Mordovian which will be reflected in their East Eurasian admixture. Ethnic Russians can score from 1 to 13 percent depending on the regional ancestry. The average sits somewhere at 5-6%. So a Russo-Tatar is gonna be 10-15 percent EE most of the time. Obviously I'm excluding people with more than two ethnicities in their bloodline.

we apparently had a misunderstanding: in post #67 you wrote "Most half-Tatars will have a lower East Eurasian percentage than you do." and I took it to mean that I have a higher EE level compared to people with similar backgrounds to mine :)

[Max18]

Your mom's results are not unusual if she's one quarter German. Germans are zero East Eurasian and if it's the Volga Germans, they moved to Russia from what is now Southwestern Germany, so they would've been close to zero Eastern European/Slavic, pretty much all Celtic-Germanic.

Yes, you're absolutely right: my German ancestors are Swabians from Elsass.

[Max18]

we apparently had a misunderstanding: in post #67 you wrote "Most half-Tatars will have a lower East Eurasian percentage than you do." and I took it to mean that I have a higher EE level compared to people with similar backgrounds to mine :)

Sorry, I was referring to post #65

[Max18]

Most half-Tatars will have a lower East Eurasian percentage than you do. My mom is a full Russian and she's about 8-9% EE, Perm/Yekaterinburg Russians can easily score 10-13%. But your North European is significantly lower than any of the Russian averages.

Here are the results from my updated K12b oracle, it used to be a big thing for me back in the day:

Distance to: Max18
1.92818064 38.60% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 61.40% Slovak
2.30046995 70.00% Finnish_West + 30.00% Turk_Southwest
2.30966378 68.60% Finnish_West + 31.40% Turk_Northwest
2.36705081 66.40% Hungarian_North + 33.60% Udmurt
2.47479863 38.60% Bashkir_North + 61.40% Slovak
2.48984336 38.60% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 61.40% Hungarian_North
2.51023361 72.40% Finnish_West + 27.60% Turk_Central_Black_Sea
2.51554840 52.80% Slovak + 47.20% Tatar_Kazan
2.54285422 33.20% Czech + 66.80% Tatar_Mishar
2.55203535 36.80% Slovak + 63.20% Tatar_Mishar
2.57398433 36.60% Hungarian_North + 63.40% Tatar_Mishar
2.61510055 42.20% Besermyan_Udmurtia + 57.80% Czech
2.61962537 71.80% Finnish_West + 28.20% Turk_South
2.65834311 35.60% Hungarian_Alföld + 64.40% Tatar_Mishar
2.70898046 70.20% Finnish_West + 29.80% Turk_West_Black_Sea
2.73091572 71.40% Finnish_West + 28.60% Turk_Central_West
2.74332121 33.80% Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest + 66.20% Tatar_Mishar
2.74652613 34.80% Hungarian + 65.20% Tatar_Mishar
2.77054960 29.00% German + 71.00% Tatar_Mishar
2.77755902 53.80% Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest + 46.20% Komi

Slovak is kind of a proxy for 75% Russian, 25% German.

To conclude this topic, I would like to share also the Bronze Age results from Illustrative DNA. Basically, the results are the same as Dodecad K12b: EE range 8-9%. Also additionally I have attached the results of Hunter Gatherer & Farmer Ancestry (before the update the EE percentage was 6.4), as you can see in contrast to pure Russian and Finno-Ugric populations my EHG percentage is lower.

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[Leto]

To conclude this topic, I would like to share also the Bronze Age results from Illustrative DNA. Basically, the results are the same as Dodecad K12b: EE range 8-9%. Also additionally I have attached the results of Hunter Gatherer & Farmer Ancestry (before the update the EE percentage was 6.4), as you can see in contrast to pure Russian and Finno-Ugric populations my EHG percentage is lower.

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I see. Is your mother some kind of Ukrainian/Southern Russian? Besides the German part.

[Max18]

I see. Is your mother some kind of Ukrainian/Southern Russian? Besides the German part.

Basically, yes. Our ancestors are Don Cossacks. How did you determine that?)

[Ugo]

Here are my wife's Dodecad K12b results. She is a purebred Russian from the center. I don’t understand where Leto came up with these sky-high figures of 8-13% for Russians.

Population
Gedrosia 5.62 Pct
Siberian 2.59 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 21.37 Pct
North_European 57.99 Pct
South_Asian 0.35 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 2.25 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 9.84 Pct
Sub_Saharan

[Leto]

Here are my wife's Dodecad K12b results. She is a purebred Russian from the center. I don’t understand where Leto came up with these sky-high figures of 8-13% for Russians.

Population
Gedrosia 5.62 Pct
Siberian 2.59 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 21.37 Pct
North_European 57.99 Pct
South_Asian 0.35 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 2.25 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 9.84 Pct
Sub_Saharan
Thanks for sharing man. Your wifey is very pure, great choice of yours. :thumb001:
And regarding the Mongoloid I swear I didn't take that out of thin air, Russians from the Urals do score like that, must be Northern Russian settlers plus some local Komi-Permyak substrate. I've seen like a dozen of such individuals.

[Leto]

Basically, yes. Our ancestors are Don Cossacks. How did you determine that?)
Because you said you were low in EHG. :D

[Kess]

Couldn't they be Pechenegs instead of Cumans and what is your thoughts on the Medieval Ploiești sample ?

Target: Demirkazık_scaled
Distance: 3.2355% / 0.03235486
50.2 Anatolian
16.8 Georgian
10.0 Cuman
10.0 Magyar
9.2 Bulgar
3.6 Ugric
0.2 Noise

Bro can you share the codes?