Medieval Mongols on G25

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/nDt1Huv2GTk


The Mongol Empire emerged from the unification of several nomadic tribes in the Mongol heartland under the leadership of Temüjin, known by the more famous title of Genghis Khan, whom a council proclaimed as the ruler of all Mongols in 1206. The empire grew rapidly under his rule and that of his descendants, who sent out invading armies in every direction. The vast transcontinental empire connected the East with the West, and the Pacific to the Mediterranean, in an enforced Pax Mongolica, allowing the exchange of trade, technologies, commodities, and ideologies across Eurasia.

[axlredneck]

https://i.ibb.co/brRnYj1/IMG-20240612-210717.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/XWnqPT3/IMG-20240612-210717.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/zNyG91t/IMG-20240613-154954.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/8KH87v2/IMG-20240613-155012.jpg

[axlredneck]

MNG_Late_Med,0.0410178,-0.3582049,0.054703,-0.0303972,-0.0342161,-0.0212312,0.0126308,0.0146092,-0.0009483,0.0076439,-0.03874,-0.0017875,0.0010595,7e-05,0.000607,0.0017574,-2.13e-05,-0.0005713,0.0033002,0.0086109,-0.0105881,-0.0062636,-0.0127864,-0.0017767,0.0009493
Mongolian,0.02859841,-0.42559947,0.05326734,-0.04050419,-0.03287193,-0.0215732,0.01273835,0.0154984,-0.00013479,0.00995655,-0.04875962,-0.00336698,0.00241078,0.00199568,0.00071642,0.0036 531,0.00057581,0.00089647,0.0050333,0.00898014,-0.00954218,-0.0081149,-0.01414532,-0.00281621,0.00270658
Turkic,0.0714239,-0.1932044,0.0582179,-0.0056525,-0.037507,-0.0203939,0.0123675,0.0124322,-0.00294,0.0019819,-0.0142092,0.0020795,-0.0022488,-0.0046446,0.0003391,-0.0028838,-0.0014832,-0.0041648,-0.0009429,0.0077069,-0.0131488,-0.0017311,-0.0094594,0.0007683,-0.003353
Mongolic,0.02818182,-0.41650195,0.0762666,-0.02839421,-0.07109407,-0.04425418,0.01654441,0.02096967,0.00614189,0.0156 0969,-0.03732811,0.00171456,-0.00133916,0.0038961,0.00254957,0.00193607,-0.00079278,-0.0005572,0.00519348,0.01988076,-0.02045328,-0.01477014,-0.02506673,-0.00270897,0.00599367
Han,0.029594,-0.447341,-0.001697,-0.069445,0.0584725,0.0326305,0.0036425,0.002423,-0.015135,-0.0035535,-0.076079,-0.015511,0.0113725,-0.002546,-0.0036645,0.0077565,0.0038465,0.0043705,0.0046505,-0.0170705,0.0165335,0.00779,0.011955,-0.0030725,-0.005149

[axlredneck]

Turkic Y-Lineages

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y37903/
https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP3920/
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y20747/
https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1505/
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y258456/
https://yfull.com/tree/N-M2019/
J-M410

[axlredneck]

From the paper:

Late Medieval
New genetic groups: lateMed_Khitan(3), lateMed_Mongol(61), SHU002(1)
Our dataset adds two main genetic groups during late Medieval in Mongolia: lateMed_Khitan and lateMed_Mongol.
We used the same modeling strategy as used for the early Medieval period, and additionally explored the genetic cladality between every individual from the Mongol period and from modern Mongolic-speaking populations via qpWave (Figure S7B; Table S5J). Relatively few Khitan individuals (n = 3) were available for analysis, but all show high ANA-related ancestry (Table S5I). Mongol-era individuals (n=61) are genetically more diverse and are cladal with modern Mongolic-speaking populations (Figure S7B). SHU002 is a single individual dated to the late Medieval period however without recognizable Mongol-like burial feature. Overall, Mongol period individuals characterized by a remarkable decrease in Western Eurasian ancestry compared to the preceding 1,600 years. They are best modeled as a mixture of ANA-like and East Asian-like ancestry sources, with only minor Western genetic ancestry. In addition, nearly a third of historic Mongol males (12/38) have Y haplogroup C2b, which is also widespread among modern Mongolians (Figure S3; Table S6); C2b is the presumed patrilineage of Genghis Khan (Zerjal et al., 2003).

[axlredneck]

Y-DNA: R-Y37903 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y37903/)
mtDNA: G2a1 (https://yfull.com/mtree/G2a1/)
Period: Late Medieval
Region: Argali Mountain, Tuv

https://i.ibb.co/FW94040/IMG-20240613-203449.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/DRzyw0M/IMG-20240613-203501.jpg


Mongolia_Tuv_LateMedieval:ARG001,0.035285,-0.370668,0.02489,-0.041667,0.028621,0.00502,-0.001175,0.001154,-0.009817,0.004009,-0.047742,0.002398,0.016204,-0.024359,-0.009093,0.004508,-0.006258,0.00076,-0.005656,-0.002626,0.004617,0.008161,0.002095,-0.00494,0.00491
Chinese,0.02397298,-0.42624482,0.00386077,-0.06104883,0.05690564,0.01648423,-0.00284447,0.0004121,-0.01558304,0.00589357,-0.06802157,0.00342318,0.01812958,-0.01673901,-0.00898183,0.00500146,-0.00540526,-0.00061885,-0.00944879,-0.00629716,0.00686067,0.00743063,0.00033701,-0.00000948,0.00950555
Turkic,0.06922106,-0.20393754,0.08797769,0.01647849,-0.05623292,-0.02937269,0.00383341,0.0033797,0.00748112,-0.00164471,0.01309671,-0.00067754,0.01042726,-0.04721897,-0.00942651,0.00302762,-0.00881622,0.00489655,0.00572237,0.00838748,-0.00211401,0.01035211,0.00736897,-0.01973156,-0.00887665

[axlredneck]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Mongol_Empire_map_2.gif

[Leto]

Were the 13th century Mongols any different from the modern ones in Outer Mongolia?

[axlredneck]

Were the 13th century Mongols any different from the modern ones in Outer Mongolia?

Nope, they're very similar.

[Leto]

Nope, they're very similar.
I see. But R1a-Z93 is less than 10 percent in modern Mongolia, isn't it? Was it higher 800 years ago?

[axlredneck]

Outer Mongolia Y-DNA (n=1760)

C - 58%
D - 1.14%
E - 0.17%
G - 0.17%
I - 0.17%
J - 2.1%
N - 9.2%
O - 14.2%
Q - 2.5%
R1a - 4%
R1b - 1.85%
R2 - 3.6%
Others - 2.9%

[axlredneck]

I see. But R1a-Z93 is less than 10 percent in modern Mongolia, isn't it? Was it higher 800 years ago?

It's remained the same.

[Demirkazık]

What about Inner Mongols? Do they have more Han-related ancestry while having less Turkic ancestry? If I'm not wrong they should be a bit different from Outer Mongols.

[Leto]

Mongol lineages in ethnic Russians are very few. Maybe 1 percent of all, despite the long-lived myth. I've seen only 2 persons, one with a C lineage, the other with O, autosomally both had low East Eurasian admixture, less than 5 percent which is totally ordinary.

[axlredneck]

Inner Mongolian Y-DNA (n=550)

C 26%
D 4%
E 0.18%
J2 0.18%
N 9.75%
O 53%
Q 3.27%
R1a 2.9%
R1b 0.72%

[Leto]

What about Inner Mongols? Do they have more Han-related ancestry while having less Turkic ancestry? If I'm not wrong they should be a bit different from Outer Mongols.
In China Mongols are indeed intermixed with and partially assimilated by the Han Chinese. The dominant language is also Chinese.

[axlredneck]

What about Inner Mongols? Do they have more Han-related ancestry while having less Turkic ancestry? If I'm not wrong they should be a bit different from Outer Mongols.

https://i.ibb.co/2NTsgnq/IMG-20240613-220837.jpg

[majevica]

What about Inner Mongols? Do they have more Han-related ancestry while having less Turkic ancestry? If I'm not wrong they should be a bit different from Outer Mongols.



Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_(Inner_Mongolia_Profile),0.0 293664,-0.4129144,0.0289626,-0.0507756,0.0127406,0.0021194,0.0094004,0.0057228,-0.0113714,0.0060136,-0.0580052,-0.0083326,0.0058572,-0.0039084,-0.0034472,-0.0020154,0.0012256,-0.0001524,0.0001256,0.0007004,-0.000499,0.0011126,0.000986,0.0009396,0.00194
Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_Baotu_(Inner_Mongolia_Profil e),0.0328947,-0.4078366,0.029453,-0.0495482,0.0087094,0.0008089,0.0100348,0.009715,-0.0053176,0.0069251,-0.059629,-0.0068188,0.0069277,-0.0022159,-0.0057274,0.0023203,0.0012517,-0.0003675,-0.0024385,0.0031265,-0.001123,0.0005564,-0.0004434,0.0006867,0.0020836
Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_Hulunbuir_(Inner_Mongolia_Pr ofile),0.031112,-0.42347567,0.031175333,-0.055556,0.013540667,0.0023243333,0.00799,0.007077 ,-0.005454,0.0049813333,-0.060949667,-0.0038966667,0.0081763333,-0.005138,-0.0047046667,-0.002431,-0.000913,0.001605,0.002472,0.000792,0.003286,-0.0030503333,0.0032046667,0.0015263333,-0.0011973333

Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_(Mid-Mongolia_Profile),0.0284555,-0.4031655,0.039786,-0.045866,-0.002462,-0.0096215,0.0110455,0.011769,-0.0061355,0.008565,-0.052289,-0.0107905,0.009143,-0.0021335,-0.009772,-0.009944,-0.001108,0.0004435,0.003834,0.002001,-0.002558,0.0029675,0.0035125,-0.004157,0.007724
Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_Baotu_(Mid-Mongolia_Profile),0.037724143,-0.38590114,0.044204071,-0.039429071,-0.012221929,-0.0142035,0.0087289286,0.011669786,-0.0012126429,0.0070681429,-0.049319714,-0.0049242143,0.0018582857,0.0013074286,-0.002094,0.000464,-0.0016857143,0.00087785714,0.0006825,0.0032515714,-0.0062657857,-0.0018900714,-0.0071660714,-0.0012480714,0.0033102143

Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_Baotu_(Outer_Mongolia_Profil e),0.039187714,-0.38009814,0.056514143,-0.0363375,-0.034687714,-0.020877,0.012153643,0.016037786,-0.00030678571,0.0090467143,-0.038288857,-0.0017342143,0.0027076429,-0.0012878571,-0.00043635714,0.00035042857,-0.0014061429,0.00086864286,0.0041928571,0.00773592 86,-0.0085562857,-0.007534,-0.011012929,0.00061121429,0.00071
Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_(Outer_Mongolia_Profile),0.0 45671375,-0.3375365,0.0543525,-0.026526375,-0.038776375,-0.01865075,0.014482875,0.01471075,-0.00363025,0.00589975,-0.035685,-0.002379,0.001338,-0.0024945,0.00436,0.002403,0.002232875,-0.00190025,0.000612875,0.00689375,-0.01534825,-0.001360125,-0.011030625,0.000933875,0.0020805

Mongol_Inner_Mongolia_Baotu_(North_China_Profile), 0.026179,-0.432616,0.017725,-0.064923,0.040007,0.012271,0.0094,-0.002538,-0.010226,0.004374,-0.06934,-0.006294,0.001784,-0.008257,-0.011672,-0.000398,-0.00665,0.00038,-0.008799,-0.015382,0.010731,0.008285,0.011092,0.000482,-0.002395


Here some Inner Mongol coords

[axlredneck]

Mongol lineages in ethnic Russians are very few. Maybe 1 percent of all, despite the long-lived myth. I've seen only 2 persons, one with a C lineage, the other with O, autosomally both had low East Eurasian admixture, less than 5 percent which is totally ordinary.

Volga Tatars derive 2-4% of their Y-lineages from Mongols.

[Leto]

Volga Tatars derive 2-4% of their Y-lineages from Mongols.
Which goes to show that the Mongols were the elite and relatively small-numbered in their vast empire. I read somewhere that around 1000 AD Mongolia was believed to have had approximately 1 million inhabitants or so.

[axlredneck]

Outer Mongolians
https://i.ibb.co/pRkk2dD/IMG-20240613-221353.jpg

[axlredneck]

SHU002 Late Medieval on G25 (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?385119-SHU002-Late-Medieval-on-G25)

[axlredneck]

...

What's your opinion on this paper?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04108-8

[axlredneck]

https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP3920/
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y20747/

These are from the elite cemetery of Tavan Tolgoi, Sükhbaatar.

[Demirkazık]

What's your opinion on this paper?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04108-8

I hate it. They exclude the pastoralist hypothesis, and on top of that, they lump Turkic languages with other unrelated languages. There are no examples of the genetics of the Turkic people or how they are related, but according to the paper, they are related.
Except for the Turkic part, I think the relations regarding Tungusic and Mongolic, as well as Japonic and Koreanic, should be researched more.

[axlredneck]

I hate it. They exclude the pastoralist hypothesis, and on top of that, they lump Turkic languages with other unrelated languages. There are no examples of the genetics of the Turkic people or how they are related, but according to the paper, they are related.
Except for the Turkic part, I think the relations regarding Tungusic and Mongolic, as well as Japonic and Koreanic, should be researched more.

Completely agree with you.