The Slavic tribes of Macedonia

[Crn Volk]

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg440/scaled.php?server=440&filename=theearlyslavsbypmbarfor.jpg&res=landing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draguvites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolyani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berziti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagudats
http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BD%D 0%B8
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1081/700zc1.png

[Crn Volk]

From the history of Ohrid;

http://www.ohrid.org.mk/eng/istorija/sloveni.htm

THE ARRIVAL OF THE SLAVS

From the beginning of VI century the Slavs started passing the river Danube more frequently devastating and robbing the rich Byzantine towns, fortresses and villages, penetrating even the interior of the Balkan peninsula. Records tell us that even in 517 AD, when Anastasius I (419-518) was the sovereign of the Byzantine "the two Macedonias and Thessaly were devastated by the Ghetic (Slavic) cavalry that robbed all the way through Thermopylae and Ancient Epirus".

It is certain that towards the end of VI century the Ohrid region was exposed to a mass Slavic colonization. In the 3rd decade of VII century the region of Ohrid was completely colonized by the Slav tribe of Berzites. In the 2nd decade of VII century this tribe, alongside other tribes, including Draguvites, Sagudates and Velegizites, entered into a grand Slavic alliance lead by the Slav leader Hatczon.

Apart form the Ohrid region, the Macedonian Slavic tribe Berzites also colonized the entire territory that stretched between the contemporary towns of Veles, Kavadarci, Prilep, Bitola, and Debar. The Byzantine writers started to call this whole territory "Sclavinia" (Sklabhnia).

Ever since the end of VI and the beginning of VII century radical ethnic changes occurred in the region of Ohrid. The devastated and robbed town of Lychnid was then named by a pure Slavic name of Ohrid. There are several explanations for the origin of the Slavic name. Prevailing is the one according to which the name Ohrid is entirely Slavic and that it is derived from the noun "hrid", hill .The form Ahrida or Ahris, most likely originates from the Slavic name Ohrid where "o>a".

Authors of travel chronicles wrote that Lake Lychnidos in the contemporary language was named Lake Ohrid as early as in X century, during the times of Czar Samuel. In St. Naum's hagiography, the Lake was named "White Lake". This name corresponds to the one used by the Greeks, with the meaning "bright lake". At that time the entire Ohrid region became a part of "Sclavinia -Berzitia" that was governed by an independent Slavic duke. In "Sclavinia" the Byzantine Empire did not have any power whatsoever. In the history of Ohrid and its surroundings the period from the end of VI to the middle of IX century remains the most obscure and the least studied one.

The results of the archaeological excavations in Ohrid tell us that the Slavs - Berzites who inhabited the region gradually started to absorb a great deal of the native culture. At the same time with the progressive development of the town of Ohrid, from the beginning of VII century also the Macedonian medieval culture with its specific features started to emerge in the Ohrid region and in other parts of Macedonia. This culture was fully acknowledged in X century when the Macedonian medieval state was formed. It is evident from the known facts that both political and cultural influences of the Byzantine Empire ceased to affect Ohrid region by the end of VI century.

[Xenomorph]

I wonder; if the Byzantines hadn't managed to reassert authority in Greece that the region would have been made Slavic or the newcomers would have assimilated?

[The Journeyman]

Could the Getae have been a Slavic tribe? They seem to have shared cultural similarities with both Dacians and Scythians..

[Crn Volk]

I wonder; if the Byzantines hadn't managed to reassert authority in Greece that the region would have been made Slavic or the newcomers would have assimilated?

I believe the region would be Slavic, well at least to the regions where Slavs penetrated to.

[Crn Volk]

Could the Getae have been a Slavic tribe? They seem to have shared cultural similarities with both Dacians and Scythians..

Could be. I believe this is being studied at the moment, and whether there was a Slavic presence in the Balkans before the 5-6th century AD.

[Crn Volk]

Celebrating Macedonia's Slavic heritage;

http://www.slavorum.com/index.php/topic,1396.0.html

[Novi Pazar]

Sokol, l'm please to see at least the map you have presented does show us the proper slavic names like Dragovites is Dragovichi. I'm somewhat not sure how accurate the map is, as Serbian Slavs did settle in Northern Greece and modern Fyrom. Schafarik did make mention that ONE PART of the Serbs did stay behind in Northern Greece whilst the other part left and relocated to the north.

Just remember also there is a Servianna in Epirus, just as there is a Servia :)

[morski]

I wonder; if the Byzantines hadn't managed to reassert authority in Greece that the region would have been made Slavic or the newcomers would have assimilated?

If it wasn't for the First Bulgarian Empire there wouldn't have been any Slavs in the Balkans today.

[iNird]

If it wasn't for the First Bulgarian Empire there wouldn't have been any Slavs in the Balkans today.

Thank you Bulgaria.

:coffee:

[Vojnik]

The ancient kingdom of Bylazora. Could the earliest Slavs lived there?

'Bylazora' means 'white dawn' in Slavic languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bylazora

[Vojnik]

http://i48.tinypic.com/4t99h2.jpg

http://www.tfahr.org/dig2011.html

[MegaArgus1]

http://www.soros.org.mk/Konkurs/018/BRSJACI-e.HTM

The ethnic group Brsyak

This group comprises:

a) The Ohrid Plain (Ohridsko Pole)
b) The Struga Plain (Strusko Pole)
c) Drimkol of Struga (Struski Drimkol)
d) Malesia (Malesija)
e) Debartsa (Debarca)
f) Upper and Lower Kichevia (including Kopachka, 'Rbetino and Krasta) (Gorna i Dolna Kicevija (so Kopacka, 'Rbetino i Krasta))
g) Poreche
h) Zheleznik
i) Upper Prespa (Gorna Prespa)
j) The Bitola Plain ( Bitolsko Pole)
k) The Prilep Plain ( Prilepsko Pole)
l) The Tsapari Plain (Caparsko Pole)
m) Upper villages of Bitola (Gorni Bitolski Sela)
n) Mariovo (Mariovo)
o) Veles (including Babuna, Azot and Klepa) (Velesko (so Babuna,Azot i Klepa))
p) Tikvesh (Tikves)
q) Raets (Raec)

[MegaArgus1]

Dr. TOMO SMILJANIĆ-BRADINA: PLEME BRSJACI
I.
Brsjac,i1 naseljavaju središnje i jugozapadne predele današnje Južne
Srbije, ali 'Su se sačuvali kao najčistiji u dolini reke Velike (Treske), zatim
u Železniku, u Babuni i u Župi Debarca. Današnje granice Brsjaka, prema
shvatanju samoga naroda, bile bi sledeće: Na Zapadu, prema Mijacima,
granica je Bistra planina, a prema Debranima i Ulufima, planina Stogovo
i Karaorman. Prema ohridskom polju do klisure reke Sateske kod sela
Mešeništa. Na jugu vododelnica Beličke planine obuhvata dolinu reke
Semnice, pritoke Crne. Odavde, u pogledu granice Brsja.ka, ima dve versije



Dr. TOMO SMILJANIĆ-BRADINA: PLEME BRSJACI
Dr. TOMO SMILJANIĆ-BRADINA: PLEME BRSJACI. I. Brsjac,i1 naseljavaju središnje i jugozapadne predele današnje Južne. Srbije, ali 'Suse sačuvali kao ...
hrcak.srce.hr/file/100565
http://www.search-results.com/web?qsrc=2417&o=APN10102&l=dis&q=Dr.+TOMO+SMILJANI%C4%86-BRADINA%3A+PLEME+BRSJACI&atb=sysid%3D421%3Auid%3D93e63f0c3143ee8d%3Auc%3D13 43697883%3Ab%3DSearchnu%3Asrc%3Dhmp%3Ao%3DAPN10102 %3Aq%3Dmegaargus1&locale=en_US

[MegaArgus1]

Brsjaci iz IX. stoleća behu podložni vizantinskim stratezima tih pokrajina,
ali oni su imali svoga kneza. Poznat nam je njihov knez Nikola,
čiji su sinovi: Mojsej, Aron, David i Samoilo. Samoilo stvara t. z. Slovensko
Car stv'o, koje traje od 976.-1018. god.ine.12

.................................
Kada su Brsjaci potpuno izgubili svoje glavare, gospodar~ su im
postali spahije. Izgleda čak da je spahija bilo i hrišćana, jer se često puta
opevaju slučajevi da je recimo spahija otišao u vojsku sultanovu kao
hrišćanin, a da se vraća ka,o mus1imanin i da ga žena zato ne prima ukuću na povratku.'o Spahije, kao gospodari zemalja, svakako su zamenili
stare »zemske gospodare«.

.....
Nešto bolji ,dani nastaju za Brsjake u početku XIX. stoleća, za vreme
su1tana Selima Ul. (1789.-1809.) i Mahmuda II. (1809.-1839.). Tada se
spominju poneki značajniji ljudi iz pojedinih sela, te postaju »carski ljudi«
i štite raju. Spominje se pop Toma iz Popovjana, i još neki iz Lazarovaca
..................
i Big'Or Dolenaca. Ali toObiva za kratko vreme. Ref'Ormistički pokret u
Turskoj prestaje. Kod Brsjaka se uvlači i islam, jer pridošli: islamizirani
Arbanasi silom teraju Brsjakeda prime islam. Tako postaju današnji Citaci,
koji stvaraju više jada Brsjacima, negoli sami Arbanasi.
......................
Tada se javljaju slavna imena četnika i vojvoda, počevši o,d Ilije-
Delije i v'Ojvode Mieka Krstevića Lat'Ovca, pa do Gligura, Mihaila, Babunskoga
i drugih. Cetnici su skor.o sv·i Brsjaci i misleći da će se zaista
osloboditi, podižu ustanak 1903. godine, kada bivaju ponova masakrirani
i popaljeni od turskog askera i bašibozuka.

.........
Nekada je kod Brisjaka postojala endogamija: uzimali su se ženidbom
i udajom samo u sv'Ojojžupi. I dCliI1as se taj 'Običaj održava dokle god se to'može po župama, a endolgamija postoji potpuno kod Brsjaka, jer nikako
se ne orode sa Mijacima iLi Debranima...

....

R e s u m e. - Dans cette article M. Dr. Tomo Smiljanić-Bradina nous done la description de la tribue serbe Brsjaci, qui Hait au 9. siede tellement forte, qu'elJe a essaye, de meme que le Rašni et les Zećani, de reunir toutes les tribues serbes en un Etat. Cette tribue a diminue au cours des siecles, et surtout ii l' epoque turque elle fut decimee et farcee d'emigrer en masse de I'autre cOte de la Save et du Danube. Mais les refugies du cote de l'Epire et de I'Albanie renforcerent les Brsjaks affaiblis par les emigrations. L'ancienne organisation des Brsjaks se conserva longtemps, elle fut renouvelee ii 1'epcque turque ou chaque župa v:iJvaitplus on moins isolee e,t etait g.1Uverne par les »zemski gospodari«, puis par les »spahis«. Les reformes turques du 1ge. s. aneantirent l'ancienne organisation. Mais les Brsjaks ne cesserent jamais de se battre contre leurs opresseuss turcs. En 1689, 1739, 1875, 1880 et 1903 ils s'insurgerent. Ce fut la penetration des Albanais qui ruina l'ancienne organisation des Brsjaks. Les tuerrie et les massacres ne cesserent qu'apres 1912, c'est ii dire lorsque I'armee serbe eutra dans leurs pays comme liberatrice. Les Brsjaks etaient ainsi une tribue composee de »brastvo« tres nombreux et qui formaient presque une peuplade. Les Brsjaks sant ii la fais cultivateurs et patres. Us savent encore leur de triJbu, ma~s ils n'aiment pas .beaucoup qu'on les nomme Brsjaks. Ce nom leur semble anjou:rd'hui comme un sur-nom, qu' on leur donne par derision.

[MegaArgus1]

All of them were Macedonians

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zjiFYuK8vGQ/SLjgvGMvnQI/AAAAAAAAAA4/YKBz-MAxnyI/s400/50_1.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zjiFYuK8vGQ/SLjcmgT-eUI/AAAAAAAAAAQ/pZjFXUVoVZw/s400/46.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Alexander_Protogerov_and_Todor_Alexandrov_1912-1918.jpg

[MegaArgus1]

HIzr_bJhVMY

[MegaArgus1]

5JRQQX4Mj7Y

[MegaArgus1]

4B_RBmids7w

[Crn Volk]

From the history of the Dragoviti;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Seal_of_a_judge_of_the_Drougoubites.jpg
11th-century seal of an anonymous "judge of the Drougoubitai"

History

The 7th-century Miracles of Saint Demetrius, which chronicle the Slavic invasions and settlement in the Balkans, list the first branch of the Drougoubitai along with four other Sclaveni tribes living in the vicinity of Thessalonica. According to the Miracles, they were led by kings, and were tributary allies to the Byzantines.[1] The Miracles also record their participation in two unsuccessful attacks by Sclaveni coalitions on Thessalonica, in 617/618 and 677.[2]

By 879, a bishopric of Drougoubiteia (Δρουγουβιτεία), suffragan to Thessalonica, had been established. Nicolas Oikonomides has suggested that at about the same time, the tribe was placed under a Byzantine military governor with the title of strategos. In the late 10th and 11th centuries, Drougoubiteia is attested as being united with the themes of Thessalonica and Strymon into a single province.[3][4] In the early 10th century, John Kaminiates speaks of the Drougoubitai as living around Veroia, while in the 13th century, Demetrios Chomatenos mentions them as "ruling" all the land from Veroia up to Skopje.[5]

[Scholarios]

The ancient kingdom of Bylazora. Could the earliest Slavs lived there?

'Bylazora' means 'white dawn' in Slavic languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bylazora

Clever and believable etymology,

if...

it didn't contradict knowledge of classical ethnology of the balkans.

[kvarc]

All of them were Macedonians

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zjiFYuK8vGQ/SLjgvGMvnQI/AAAAAAAAAA4/YKBz-MAxnyI/s400/50_1.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zjiFYuK8vGQ/SLjcmgT-eUI/AAAAAAAAAAQ/pZjFXUVoVZw/s400/46.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Alexander_Protogerov_and_Todor_Alexandrov_1912-1918.jpg

actually the first two are Macedonian Serbian chetniks :)

[morski]

actually the first two are Macedonian Serboman chetniks :)

Fixed.

[kvarc]

Fixed.

and the last two, Bugarashi

[Crn Volk]

and the last two, Bugarashi

Srbomani and Bugaromani

[archangel]

i dont think any slavs smigrated macedonia or balkans in general(except slovenia maybe) vast majority of these 'slavs' in the region are just slavisiced native populations,one can easily see the difference between a russian,pole and a fyromian or serb etc...

[Crn Volk]

i dont think any slavs smigrated macedonia or balkans in general(except slovenia maybe) vast majority of these 'slavs' in the region are just slavisiced native populations,one can easily see the difference between a russian,pole and a fyromian or serb etc...

I don't know about 'any'. There are many Slavic toponyms for example. The numbers however may not have been so great. As for the East and West Slavs, they two have been mixed with various other peoples, so you can't take them as examples of Slavdom, and those in the south as non-Slavs.

[archangel]

when i imagine slavs,i imagine east euros mostly and some central europeans not southeast wogs sorry:) but in the end you guys speak some sort of a slavic languagea and this make you slavs

[Dardanian]

when i imagine slavs,i imagine east euros mostly and some central europeans not southeast wogs sorry:) but in the end you guys speak some sort of a slavic languagea and this make you slavs

Turd has no right to speak about this matter since Turkic people range from Syberians to Volga Tatars.
In any case what do Hungarians and Volga Tatars have to do with Syrian, Lebanese, Azerbaijani and Iranian looking Turks?

[Crn Volk]

when i imagine slavs,i imagine east euros mostly and some central europeans not southeast wogs sorry:) but in the end you guys speak some sort of a slavic languagea and this make you slavs

and when i think of turks, i think of turkmen and uzbeks, not the balkanoids and anatolians who call themselves turks today...

[Novi Pazar]

i dont think any slavs smigrated macedonia or balkans in general(except slovenia maybe) vast majority of these 'slavs' in the region are just slavisiced native populations,one can easily see the difference between a russian,pole and a fyromian or serb etc...

Maybe the Slavs are natives? Where are the wars between Barbarian Slavs and so called natives? The toponym Serbinum was noted during the 2nd cent, the Triballians, a Thracian tribe, was linked to the Serbs. There are scholars who believe Thracians were actually Slavs, the only language group which can properly translate Thracian words most efficiently is SLAVIC!

[Skerdilaid]

Maybe the Slavs are natives? Where are the wars between Barbarian Slavs and so called natives? The toponym Serbinum was noted during the 2nd cent, the Triballians, a Thracian tribe, was linked to the Serbs. There are scholars who believe Thracians were actually Slavs, the only language group which can properly translate Thracian words most efficiently is SLAVIC!

:rolleyes:

[Crn Volk]

Maybe the Slavs are natives? Where are the wars between Barbarian Slavs and so called natives? The toponym Serbinum was noted during the 2nd cent, the Triballians, a Thracian tribe, was linked to the Serbs. There are scholars who believe Thracians were actually Slavs, the only language group which can properly translate Thracian words most efficiently is SLAVIC!

Good point - check out old map of Thracians...

http://www.farsarotul.org/images/NL26_4F.jpg

Coincidence?

http://vardaraxios.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/slavs_map3.jpg

[Scholarios]

:rolleyes:

Also Pechenegs and Slavs both linked to Scytians, Serbs are Triballians, Bulgars are Scythians, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Thracians place in Indo-Europeans is generally not linked with Balto-Slavic.

http://soltdm.com/langmod/romana/imags/grlayers.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/ThracianLanguageMap.jpg/350px-ThracianLanguageMap.jpg

[Skerdilaid]

All proto Balkan languages were probably related to each other.

The sole surviving Balkan Languages today are Greek, Albanian and in a sence the Romanian/Aromanian, so these languages do not show any similarity to the Balto-Slavic languages unless we go back to the PIE.

If that does not give them a clue then I have to admit they probably are quite thick.

[Crn Volk]

All proto Balkan languages were probably related to each other.

The sole surviving Balkan Languages today are Greek, and in a sence the Romanian/Aromanian, so these languages do not show any similarity to the Balto-Slavic languages unless we go back to the PIE.

If that does not give them a clue then I have to admit they probably are quite thick.

Fixed.

[Skerdilaid]

Fixed.

You should not fix things that you have got no clue what they are.:thumb001:

[Crn Volk]

You should not fix things that you have got no clue what they are.:thumb001:


This thread is about Slavic tribes of Macedonia, not your sheepturd mongrelized language, now gtfo

[Skerdilaid]

Slavo Turd when you claim ancient Balkan heritage you better bring evidence.

[kvarc]

Srbomani and Bugaromani

and you must be a traveler from the ancient times ;)

[Crn Volk]

Slavo Turd when you claim ancient Balkan heritage you better bring evidence.

Whose claiming what? Look at the title of the thread....

[Novi Pazar]

"Good point - check out old map of Thracians..."

Sokol, just look at the toponyms, many of them have 'deva' or itza/itsa/ica suffixes, just like Slavic. The thracian language is in Satem division, just like Slavic and Baltic, as l have said, this language is best translated via Slavic and Baltic (closely related language groups).

Again, where are those wars between the natives and barbarian slavs from the north? Have a look at Albanian territory, it is littered with Slavic toponyms.....oh christ, l forgot, the Illyro-Shqiptars were hiding up in the MOUNTAINS whilst invading alien Slavs renamed old Illyro-Shqiptar toponyms. Today, Illyro-Shqiptars can't remember those ancient toponyms and call those Mountains they were hiding in, in slavic fashion......amnesia :confused:

PS The Nordic School must be hiding something from us all, just as they can't explain SLAVIC looking names amongst Goths etc.....

[archangel]

trolol slavs being native to balkans?i dont think east or west slavs were wog looking like greeks or albanians,you are just slavisied woggy southeast euros people,just accept it

real slavs=russiand and ukraines to me

[Don Arb]

Slavs are native in graves only

[Crn Volk]

Slavs are native in graves only

I have reported this post

[Don Arb]

I have reported this post

Bitch please

[Loki]

Slavs are native in graves only

Don't ever say such nonsense on this forum again. You have been warned. Next time I kick you out for good.

[Don Arb]

Don't ever say such nonsense on this forum again. You have been warned. Next time I kick you out for good.

Graves are everybody's native land, that's a saying, and I used it as a joke, relax sir you are insulting me personally for non personal posts which are very usual, I would like to leave this forum with good memories so be friendly and wait a lil bit.thnx :)

[Crn Volk]

Graves are everybody's native land, that's a saying, and I used it as a joke, relax sir you are insulting me personally for non personal posts which are very usual, I would like to leave this forum with good memories so be friendly and wait a lil bit.thnx :)

We all know what you meant. Don't try and justify it. Loki, please do the needful and ban this guy.

[Loki]

Graves are everybody's native land, that's a saying, and I used it as a joke, relax sir you are insulting me personally for non personal posts which are very usual, I would like to leave this forum with good memories so be friendly and wait a lil bit.thnx :)

I did not insult you. You insulted Slavs. It really wasn't a nice thing to say ...

[Scholarios]

I'd like to hear more about Slavic tribes in Southern Balkans.

[Don Arb]

I did not insult you. You insulted Slavs. It really wasn't a nice thing to say ...

I didn't know that it was forbidden to insult slavs?!and I didnt insult nobody's nationality (as everybody do in this kind of forums)

I couldn't make a 'better' post since there exist posters like Sokol who open silly threads as this one who claim slavs to be native in Balkans

And is my right to use sarcasm or irony in my posts in the way I like about slavs,illyrians, germanics etc and is your job to protect that right more than any butthurt slav like this kid Sokol.

[Crn Volk]

I'd like to hear more about Slavic tribes in Southern Balkans.

Here's an interesting article about Slavic settlements in Greece;

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html

It's good to know we are not the most southern of southern Slavs :D

[Novi Pazar]

trolol slavs being native to balkans?i dont think east or west slavs were wog looking like greeks or albanians,you are just slavisied woggy southeast euros people,just accept it

real slavs=russiand and ukraines to me

I used to believe this also, however as l have been delving further into origins of Balkans Slavs, the Nordic School thought/theory of mass Slavic migration into the Balkans, 6th Cent, doesn't entirely and clearly explain the clear cut Slavic names in the region! (Serbinum of 2nd cent AD)

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

Byzantine Chronicles mention Triballians ARE Serbs, a Thracian tribe! Note also the Serbs during the medieval times had a region/state called Ras. An ancient tribe of Etruscans named themselves as Rasena or Rasni. Look at the word Th-RACI-an, maybe the Thracians called themselves Raci?

Something is fishy!

[Novi Pazar]

^ Another reason, for example, why the Slavic migration doesn't gel, is of Emperor Justin and Justinian Slavic ancestry. These men originated from the Illyricum regions of Byzantium, born prior to the mainstream view of 6th Cent.

Justinian's full name was Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinianus. He is said to be of Slavic descent, probably born in a small village called Tauresium in Illyricum, near Scupi (present day Skopje, Macedonia), on May 11, 483, to Vigilantia. His mother Vigilantia was the sister of the highly esteemed General Justin, who rose from the ranks of the army to become emperor. His uncle adopted him and ensured the boy's education. Justinian was superbly well educated in jurisprudence, theology and Roman history. His military career featured rapid advancement, and a great future opened up for him when, in 518, Justin became emperor. Justinian was appointed consul in 521, and later as commander of the army of the east. He was functioning as virtual regent long before Justin made him associate emperor on April 1, 527.

[safinator]

^ Another reason, for example, why the Slavic migration doesn't gel, is of Emperor Justin and Justinian Slavic ancestry. These men originated from the Illyricum regions of Byzantium, born prior to the mainstream view of 6th Cent.

Source?

[Crn Volk]

^ Another reason, for example, why the Slavic migration doesn't gel, is of Emperor Justin and Justinian Slavic ancestry. These men originated from the Illyricum regions of Byzantium, born prior to the mainstream view of 6th Cent.

Justinian's full name was Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinianus. He is said to be of Slavic descent, probably born in a small village called Tauresium in Illyricum, near Scupi (present day Skopje, Macedonia), on May 11, 483, to Vigilantia. His mother Vigilantia was the sister of the highly esteemed General Justin, who rose from the ranks of the army to become emperor. His uncle adopted him and ensured the boy's education. Justinian was superbly well educated in jurisprudence, theology and Roman history. His military career featured rapid advancement, and a great future opened up for him when, in 518, Justin became emperor. Justinian was appointed consul in 521, and later as commander of the army of the east. He was functioning as virtual regent long before Justin made him associate emperor on April 1, 527.

It's certainly an area that needs further research. The Paeonian tribe of Doberes sounds alot like the Slavic word for Good - Dobar...

Here's an old thread about Bylazora;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?47631-Ancient-Bylazora

[Novi Pazar]

^ Sokol, much of the Slavs have been downplayed due to political pressures. Albania is an ancient Slavic region, hijacked by 11/12th century Shqiptars. Shqiptarisht has been morphed by Slavic, then the stupid western scholars call Baltic, *Balticised Albanian* then inturn related to Thracian LMAO It is baltic and Slavic languages which can best solve the thracian riddle, not some young Shqiptarisht!

[kollaps]

Here's an interesting article about Slavic settlements in Greece;

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html

It's good to know we are not the most southern of southern Slavs :D

These are small-scale settlements that happened 1300 years ago. Modern inhabitants of Peloponnese are no more southern Slavs than modern inhabitants of Ankara are Galatians.

[Scholarios]

^ Another reason, for example, why the Slavic migration doesn't gel, is of Emperor Justin and Justinian Slavic ancestry. These men originated from the Illyricum regions of Byzantium, born prior to the mainstream view of 6th Cent.

Justinian's full name was Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinianus. He is said to be of Slavic descent, probably born in a small village called Tauresium in Illyricum, near Scupi (present day Skopje, Macedonia), on May 11, 483, to Vigilantia. His mother Vigilantia was the sister of the highly esteemed General Justin, who rose from the ranks of the army to become emperor. His uncle
adopted him and ensured the boy's education. Justinian was superbly well educated in jurisprudence, theology and Roman history. His

military career featured rapid advancement, and a great future opened up for him when, in 518, Justin became emperor. Justinian was
appointed consul in 521, and later as commander of the army of the east. He was functioning as virtual regent long before Justin
made him associate emperor on April 1, 527.


Of course the Slavs began to appear as Mercenaries and raiders as early as the 5th Century AD. But this was just before the massive migration of Slavs that brought about the demographic change that put an end the Late Antiquity.

I've heard the old tale of Justinian being a Slav, but I've never seen any evidence of it in anything like a primary source. He is generally thought to have been from Latin speaking peasant stock, as he was from North of Jirecek line in an area under Latin influence.

[Scholarios]

Byzantine writers called Bulgars and Turks as Scyhtians also. So Triballians theory is just Byzantine classicism, like calling Turks as Trojans or something.

[Scholarios]

Here's an interesting article about Slavic settlements in Greece;

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html

It's good to know we are not the most southern of southern Slavs :D

I've read this rather famous journal previously, but the editor's conclusion doesn't fly. Of course the Slavs material cultural influence lasted, but it doesn't mean that these people were Slavs. Slav is a linguistic cultural category and these guys were Greeks who maintained some customs carried their in the Age of Migrations. Cremation burial is finished by 800AD so Slavic culture is finished there as well.

[ioan assen]

Byzantine writers called Bulgars and Turks as Scyhtians also.
Mainly Moesians: they called Bulgarians and/or Moesians the Macedonians too.

[Novi Pazar]

Of course the Slavs began to appear as Mercenaries and raiders as early as the 5th Century AD. But this was just before the massive migration of Slavs that brought about the demographic change that put an end the Late Antiquity.

I've heard the old tale of Justinian being a Slav, but I've never seen any evidence of it in anything like a primary source. He is generally thought to have been from Latin speaking peasant stock, as he was from North of Jirecek line in an area under Latin influence.

Maybe, as you say, however there are clues lingering around the Balkans which does not fit with mainstream view. A few centuries before the Slavic migration theory, we find the toponym of SERBINUM in modern day Bosnia etc...

Mario Alinei:

- "I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the 'arrival' of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times"

- "Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs... because none of the variant versions of such late settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands."

- "The surmised 'Slavic migration' is full of inconsistencies. There is no 'northern Slavic language', it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic... The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic... and connected with Anatolia... Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age... The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture... agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs... The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven."

[Novi Pazar]

The Slavs - Natives and Conquerors

Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians never existed as nations and there never existed such languages as Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian. For God's sake, how the Slavs could have assimilated the huge masses of the native Balkan population without war; and how it could have happened that the Romans hadn't noticed any single war between the Balkan "aborigines" and the Slavic "newcomers"?

Romans mentioned the Illyrian kings Bardyllis, Grabos, Pleuratus, Cleitus the Illyrian, Glaukias, Bardyllis II, Monunius, Mytilus, Pleuratus II, Agron, Pinnes, Skerdilaidas, Pleuratus III, Gentius, Ballaios, Queen Teuta, Bato/Baton ((from 4th BC - 1st century AD);
Dacian, from Charnabon to Burebista and Decebalus (5th BC - 2th AD); and the Roman mentioned many of the wars they (Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians) fought against Romans and among themselves.

In the middle of the 5th century AD the Slavs "crossed" the Danube river and the all "ancient" Illyro/Dacio/Thracian people immediately disappeared without the trace. The Serbs and Croats "invaded" the Balkan Peninsula 150 years later (the beginning of the 7th century!) and no one spotted (noted) any conflict between the "autochthonous" people and their "conquerors".

All this sounds to me ludicrous, even sillier than the description of the Slavic warriors in Maurice's Strategikon, where they were described as "underwater ambushers" who were "breathing through long cane stalks". Nobody seems to be bothering to check the mentioned "underwater strategy" to see is such a "military assignment" feasible at all. Of course, it is not feasible! You cannot lie under water and breath through the cane stalk as well as it is impossible to conqer and assimilate the "aborigines" without the war.

In this specific Balkan case, the "natives" and the "conquerors" were the same people - the Slavs!

[Novi Pazar]

Scholaris, don't you find it odd that there isn't a single piece of evidence, Archeological Evidence, to support the 6th century mass migration theory. How could Slavs managed to settle over HALF OF EUROPE without leaving behind any physical trace?

Something really fishy is goin on!

[Scholarios]

Maybe, as you say, however there are clues lingering around the Balkans which does not fit with mainstream view. A few centuries before the Slavic migration theory, we find the toponym of SERBINUM in modern day Bosnia etc...


There are several possibilities for the name Servinum. The most likely is that it is from the Latin Servus etc. The status of the Illyrian provinces as those in service to Rome would make sense. Or alternately, the Latin word servare, to guard, protect also makes sense as a Roman town and outpost. I think it would be similar to the toponym Skopje, in that sense of a lookout, protective place, watch place. etc. Furthermore.The lack of mention of Serbs themselves by Roman authorities until the 7th century would make their existence unlikely, I think. Poryphgenitos mentions their leaving White Serbia and requesting lands near Belgrade. This would make sense based on earlier practices with "barbarian" peoples settling as Foederati in the Empire.

Mario Alinei:


- "I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the 'arrival' of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times"

Or of course it's possible that the South Slavic languages come from Western Slavs,as is supported by historical sources that repeatedly mention Slavs breaking through the Danube on raids in 5th Centuries and finally settling. This is also supported by DNA and archaeology. I believe it is also supported by linguistics but am now qualified to say exactly.


- "Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs... because none of the variant versions of such late settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands."

Ok,well the first sentence is of course wishful thinking. The rest is not necessary to care about I think. Germans left the dark ages to rule Europe, and Turks rode out of the steppe as barbarian nomads but became rulers of Iran and Byzantium. Mongols and Manchu did the same in China. It's circumstantial I think.


- "The surmised 'Slavic migration' is full of inconsistencies. There is no 'northern Slavic language', it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic... The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic... and connected with Anatolia... Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age... The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture... agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs... The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven."

First part is semantics. South Slavic languages are broken off West Slavic languages and influences by Greek and Latin in vocabulary and grammar- but a variety of non-Slavic Paleobalkan words and names survive. Slavs were the first metallurgic culture in the Balkans doesn't make sense to me. How about Thracians or Celts? Not to mention the obvious. This starts from the assumption that these people were Slavs, which is not established by historic sources. Of course, when we are talking about illiterate cultures of the past, it's easy to fill in gaps. Second part of her statement I can't understand though.

[Scholarios]

Scholaris, don't you find it odd that there isn't a single piece of evidence, Archeological Evidence, to support the 6th century mass migration theory. How could Slavs managed to settle over HALF OF EUROPE without leaving behind any physical trace?

Something really fishy is goin on!

They left behind lots of traces. What you accept as evidence is a different story. There are of course a dozen narratives mentioning their coming and the 2 century collapse in authority that followed from their raiding and destruction and finally settlement of Balkan lands. (The so-called Scythian-wastes, of the Skythi-Slavs)

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html

In any case, village of Krokkes in Lakonia in Greece disappears in the 5th Century and reappears in 9th Century as "Levetsova". What can you imagine happened? We can do the same thing for hundreds of towns in the Balkans. They all disappear or fall into disuse and then reappear with Slavic names after "imaginary" Slav invasions. C'mon guys, I really think nobody serious doubts the Slav invasions. Sure, maybe some Slavs had contact or moved to Balkans a little bit before. But South Slavic culture in Balkans is a consequence of collapse of Byzantine authority after the death of Emperor Maurice in the 5th Century. This is what contemporary sources say, so is there really a need to doubt them? One or two possible toponyms is not a good enough reason I think. I don't care about that. You guys have been here 1500 years, you are indigenous as far as I am concerned.

[Crn Volk]

They left behind lots of traces. What you accept as evidence is a different story. There are of course a dozen narratives mentioning their coming and the 2 century collapse in authority that followed from their raiding and destruction and finally settlement of Balkan lands. (The so-called Scythian-wastes, of the Skythi-Slavs)

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html

In any case, village of Krokkes in Lakonia in Greece disappears in the 5th Century and reappears in 9th Century as "Levetsova". What can you imagine happened? We can do the same thing for hundreds of towns in the Balkans. They all disappear or fall into disuse and then reappear with Slavic names after "imaginary" Slav invasions. C'mon guys, I really think nobody serious doubts the Slav invasions. Sure, maybe some Slavs had contact or moved to Balkans a little bit before. But South Slavic culture in Balkans is a consequence of collapse of Byzantine authority after the death of Emperor Maurice in the 5th Century. This is what contemporary sources say, so is there really a need to doubt them? One or two possible toponyms is not a good enough reason I think. I don't care about that. You guys have been here 1500 years, you are indigenous as far as I am concerned.


The Slavic migration did occur and there is plenty of evidence for it. As regards to the scale of it, the jury is still out. There is also the possibility that they were present in the Balkans much earlier. In any case, the Slavs did mix with the locals to produce today's Balkan nations.

[Novi Pazar]

Scholarios, l will do some searching, l'm not too well familiar with Slavic history prior to the 6th century. There are some aspects which does not fit well with me, i.e, Slavs originating from the marshes of North-East Europe, as a small tribe, then exploding within a matter of the smallest time frame to occupy most of Europe, moreover, attaining high positions within the Byzantine Empire, in the 6th Cent, just after supposedly *settling* inside the Empire etc....Brother, doesn't it seem odd? In my opinion, it would have taken some generations before settling to climb up the ranks?

[Scholarios]

Scholarios, l will do some searching, l'm not too well familiar with Slavic history prior to the 6th century. There are some aspects which does not fit well with me, i.e, Slavs originating from the marshes of North-East Europe, as a small tribe, then exploding within a matter of the smallest time frame to occupy most of Europe, moreover, attaining high positions within the Byzantine Empire, in the 6th Cent, just after supposedly *settling* inside the Empire etc....Brother, doesn't it seem odd? In my opinion, it would have taken some generations before settling to climb up the ranks?

Hi Novi,

I appreciate your questions and the presence of Slavs in the Balkans in antiquity is not totally out of the question, but I do personally do not consider their quick rise to power to be that unusual. Consider the Mongols. Ghengis Khan was born in a yurt and no one had ever heard of his people before and when he was old he was sitting on the throne of China.

It makes sense when you remember that before 4th Century when Huns pushed out all these people from Russia, it was unlikely that Slavs would have found themselves in the spotlight of the Roman Empire or Greek world before. It's generally the same with other people who came into European history around this time, Goths, Sarmatians, Gepids, Avars, Bulgars,etc. The only difference between them and the Slavs is that they were not numerically sufficient to make their mark in the long term.(aside from the Goths) It's my personal opinion actually that the Slavs just filled a vacuum left by these people as they pushed westward (see the Vandal evacuation of Poland).

[Novi Pazar]

Hi Novi,

I appreciate your questions and the presence of Slavs in the Balkans in antiquity is not totally out of the question, but I do personally do not consider their quick rise to power to be that unusual. Consider the Mongols. Ghengis Khan was born in a yurt and no one had ever heard of his people before and when he was old he was sitting on the throne of China.

It makes sense when you remember that before 4th Century when Huns pushed out all these people from Russia, it was unlikely that Slavs would have found themselves in the spotlight of the Roman Empire or Greek world before. It's generally the same with other people who came into European history around this time, Goths, Sarmatians, Gepids, Avars, Bulgars,etc. The only difference between them and the Slavs is that they were not numerically sufficient to make their mark in the long term.(aside from the Goths) It's my personal opinion actually that the Slavs just filled a vacuum left by these people as they pushed westward (see the Vandal evacuation of Poland).

Maybe scholarios, your probably right, but even with some of the toponyms the thracians were using, examples: suffixes, they seem all to much of a coincidence with Slavic linguistic grammar and structure? I understand with the minimal knowledge l have, the Thracian language was grouped within the Satem division, like Slavic, Persian, Indic etc...some of the pagan names of their gods are so similarly named to Slavic/Baltic, that again, it might just be another coincidence, who knows! I've read from somewhere that an Ancient Greek scholar mentioned thracians were the second largest nation after the Indians who spaned from Balkans to north Europe?

[Crn Volk]

Princes Hacon and Prebond and their attempts to take Salonika;

In the course of the 7th century the Slav tribes which had settled in Macedonia were already attempting, through an association of larger tribal leagues, to take Salonica, which had remained as the single Byzantine base on the territory of Macedonia, and to create their own Slav state in Macedonia. The first such league was created in the second decade of the 7th century with Prince Hacon at its head. Byzantium, however, succeeded in rendering it impossible for the associated Macedonian Slav tribes to capture Salonica. In the second half of the 7th century the Slavs in Macedonia once more came together in a larger tribal league led by Rex ("King") Prebond. But this tribal league was also dispersed by Byzantium when Prebond was captured by deceit and put to death in 674. After his death the Macedonian Sklavinii were exposed to continual attacks from the Byzantine army; and yet, in spite of this, they were not subdued. In the course of the 8th century the Macedonian Sklavinii developed into anti-state formations, administered by their princes (archonts) and "kings" (reges). During this period the Sklavinii had at their disposal their own hoplites (heavily-armed infantrymen)


From a comic book series;

http://www.stripovi.com/naslovnice/NikadRobom/NKRB_109.jpg

[Scholarios]

Hmm. Star of Vergina on Slavic tribes...

[Crn Volk]

Hmm. Star of Vergina on Slavic tribes...

This is an old comic book series, before the independence of Macedonia. I don't think it's the Star of Vergina, but interesting if it is.

[Crn Volk]

Macedonian Slavs, led by Prince Hatson before the attack on the city of Thessaloniki.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mk/thumb/a/ab/Makedonski_Sloveni.JPG/800px-Makedonski_Sloveni.JPG

[Scholarios]

The Cult of St. Demetrios of Thessaloniki among Greeks and Slavs:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4n4kBoJlYfg/UIq0ZpS5E-I/AAAAAAAAa2Q/OPT95enxEtQ/s400/demetrius_2.jpg

He performed prodigies for individuals who were citizens of Thessaloniki or who proceeded to his shrine from elsewhere. However, he was also the protector of Thessaloniki, and, given that in the Dečani cycle two related scenes occur, in one of which the Saint is fending off marauders from the city and in the other of which he is specifically killing the vojvod Kalojan, it is possible to affirm that the scene of Demetrius fending off marauders from the walls of Thessaloniki was, at least at the beginning, symbolical. When he killed Kalojan, he was normally represented on horseback, although, perhaps, the two scenes were sometimes confused.(76)

Ιn fact, of course, St Demetrius did not kill Kalojan! The true historical facts are well-known. The Bulgarian vojvod Kalojan (Skalojan -Dog John- to the Greeks), after a successful campaign, in alliance with the Greeks, against the Latins, and a victory at Adrianople, set out to revenge the crimes of the Greeks against the Bulgarians. Basil II had adopted the title of Boulgaroktonos. Kalojan adapted this to Romanoktonos. After a bloody campaign in Thrace and Northern Macedonia, he set siege to Thessaloniki. Alas for him, he was assassinated by another Bulgarian vojvod Manastras, it seems with the collusion of his spouse

It may seem surprising -even paradoxical- that Slavs, particularly the Bulgarians, should have adopted and rendered an increasingly fervent cult to the Saint who was reputed to have killed their vojvod. D. Obolensky offers an explanation.(93) First, the cult of St Demetrius was propagated among the Slavs by Sts Cyril and Methodius, as well as by their successor Clement of Ohrid. A canon for his feast day in Old Church Slavonic, probably composed by Methodius before his death in 886, has no Greek original. It is preserved in the Meneia of 1096. Obolensky quotes an anecdote, for which no Greek model has been found either. It concerns a pagan chieftain who unsuccessfully besieged Thessaloniki but took two maidens captive. He said to them: Ί hear that you have a great god called Demetrius who works many miracles. Embroider me his likeness on an image, so that I may venerate him and defeat my enemies.' However, things did not work out quite as the chieftain had hoped. During the night, the Saint whisked back the maidens to his shrine in Thessaloniki, together with the image which they had made.(94) Nevertheless, it illustrates the attitude of Slavs towards Demetrius, who, they hoped, would bestow on them the same favours as he did on the citizens of Thessaloniki. One readily understands how, in Christian countries subjugated to Turkish Moslems, these representations of St Demetrius appealed to them, subtly but eloquently, for protection against their conquerors.

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/walter_demetrius_4.html

[morski]

The Cult of St. Demetrios of Thessaloniki among Greeks and Slavs:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4n4kBoJlYfg/UIq0ZpS5E-I/AAAAAAAAa2Q/OPT95enxEtQ/s400/demetrius_2.jpg

He performed prodigies for individuals who were citizens of Thessaloniki or who proceeded to his shrine from elsewhere. However, he was also the protector of Thessaloniki, and, given that in the Dečani cycle two related scenes occur, in one of which the Saint is fending off marauders from the city and in the other of which he is specifically killing the vojvod Kalojan, it is possible to affirm that the scene of Demetrius fending off marauders from the walls of Thessaloniki was, at least at the beginning, symbolical. When he killed Kalojan, he was normally represented on horseback, although, perhaps, the two scenes were sometimes confused.(76)

Ιn fact, of course, St Demetrius did not kill Kalojan! The true historical facts are well-known. The Bulgarian vojvod Kalojan (Skalojan -Dog John- to the Greeks), after a successful campaign, in alliance with the Greeks, against the Latins, and a victory at Adrianople, set out to revenge the crimes of the Greeks against the Bulgarians. Basil II had adopted the title of Boulgaroktonos. Kalojan adapted this to Romanoktonos. After a bloody campaign in Thrace and Northern Macedonia, he set siege to Thessaloniki. Alas for him, he was assassinated by another Bulgarian vojvod Manastras, it seems with the collusion of his spouse

It may seem surprising -even paradoxical- that Slavs, particularly the Bulgarians, should have adopted and rendered an increasingly fervent cult to the Saint who was reputed to have killed their vojvod. D. Obolensky offers an explanation.(93) First, the cult of St Demetrius was propagated among the Slavs by Sts Cyril and Methodius, as well as by their successor Clement of Ohrid. A canon for his feast day in Old Church Slavonic, probably composed by Methodius before his death in 886, has no Greek original. It is preserved in the Meneia of 1096. Obolensky quotes an anecdote, for which no Greek model has been found either. It concerns a pagan chieftain who unsuccessfully besieged Thessaloniki but took two maidens captive. He said to them: Ί hear that you have a great god called Demetrius who works many miracles. Embroider me his likeness on an image, so that I may venerate him and defeat my enemies.' However, things did not work out quite as the chieftain had hoped. During the night, the Saint whisked back the maidens to his shrine in Thessaloniki, together with the image which they had made.(94) Nevertheless, it illustrates the attitude of Slavs towards Demetrius, who, they hoped, would bestow on them the same favours as he did on the citizens of Thessaloniki. One readily understands how, in Christian countries subjugated to Turkish Moslems, these representations of St Demetrius appealed to them, subtly but eloquently, for protection against their conquerors.

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/walter_demetrius_4.html

Kaloyan was not a voyvoda, but the Emperor of the Second Bulgarian Empire.:picard2:, younger brother of Asen and Peter who lead the successful uprising of 1185, which resulted in the restoration of the Bulgarian state. During the uprising an icon of St. Demetrius of Thessaloniki was found in Tarnovo and the leaders of the uprising claimed that the saint left Thessaloniki for Tarnovo and he was now protector of the rebelious Bulgarians.

[Scholarios]

Kaloyan was not a voyvoda, but the Emperor of the Second Bulgarian Empire.:picard2:, younger brother of Asen and Peter who lead the successful uprising of 1185, which resulted in the restoration of the Bulgarian state. During the uprising an icon of St. Demetrius of Thessaloniki was found in Tarnovo and the leaders of the uprising claimed that the saint left Thessaloniki for Tarnovo and he was now protector of the rebelious Bulgarians.

haha. whats with you trying to undermine all my posts recently? no biggie. anyways, it's not a historical article, just one from an Orthodox chronicle talking about some folk history and using voivoda as just general term "leader" from laymen use. he clearly wasn't a duke but the ultimate leader...your tsar. Anyways, it's interesting about the usurpation of Demetrius by the Bulgarians.. kind of mirrors their usurpation of the term "Ceasar"

[Petros Houhoulis]

Maybe the Slavs are natives? Where are the wars between Barbarian Slavs and so called natives? The toponym Serbinum was noted during the 2nd cent, the Triballians, a Thracian tribe, was linked to the Serbs. There are scholars who believe Thracians were actually Slavs, the only language group which can properly translate Thracian words most efficiently is SLAVIC!

Actually, Thracian has more cognates with the Baltic languages, than the Slavic ones.

[Petros Houhoulis]

trolol slavs being native to balkans?i dont think east or west slavs were wog looking like greeks or albanians,you are just slavisied woggy southeast euros people,just accept it

real slavs=russiand and ukraines to me

Kinda funny, but the name "Slav" was applied first to Balkan/Danubian populations. The Slavic Urheimat though is closer to Ukraine.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I used to believe this also, however as l have been delving further into origins of Balkans Slavs, the Nordic School thought/theory of mass Slavic migration into the Balkans, 6th Cent, doesn't entirely and clearly explain the clear cut Slavic names in the region! (Serbinum of 2nd cent AD)

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

Byzantine Chronicles mention Triballians ARE Serbs, a Thracian tribe! Note also the Serbs during the medieval times had a region/state called Ras. An ancient tribe of Etruscans named themselves as Rasena or Rasni. Look at the word Th-RACI-an, maybe the Thracians called themselves Raci?

Something is fishy!

Nobody knows what was going on in Triballia during the antiquity, but the proto-Slavic has very few words for mountains, and as such, is not considered native in the Balkans.

Furthermore, Etrurian was probably related to the Northwest Caucasian languages, Hittite, the language spoken by at least some Lemnians (Stele of Lemnos) e.t.c. The Etruscans were definitely immigrants from Asia Minor...

[Petros Houhoulis]

^ Another reason, for example, why the Slavic migration doesn't gel, is of Emperor Justin and Justinian Slavic ancestry. These men originated from the Illyricum regions of Byzantium, born prior to the mainstream view of 6th Cent.

Justinian's full name was Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinianus. He is said to be of Slavic descent, probably born in a small village called Tauresium in Illyricum, near Scupi (present day Skopje, Macedonia), on May 11, 483, to Vigilantia. His mother Vigilantia was the sister of the highly esteemed General Justin, who rose from the ranks of the army to become emperor. His uncle adopted him and ensured the boy's education. Justinian was superbly well educated in jurisprudence, theology and Roman history. His military career featured rapid advancement, and a great future opened up for him when, in 518, Justin became emperor. Justinian was appointed consul in 521, and later as commander of the army of the east. He was functioning as virtual regent long before Justin made him associate emperor on April 1, 527.

"Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinianus" is not a Slavic name. He had built Justiniana Prima near his birthplace, and Justiniana Prima is actually located in Serbia today. The location of Tauresium is unknown to us, and the joke of some idiots that a modern village with the name "Taor" is in fact somehow related to Tauresium is nothing more than their usual delusions of grandeur...

[Petros Houhoulis]

It's certainly an area that needs further research. The Paeonian tribe of Doberes sounds alot like the Slavic word for Good - Dobar...

Here's an old thread about Bylazora;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?47631-Ancient-Bylazora

Too bad all of these were Thracian names.

[Petros Houhoulis]

^ Sokol, much of the Slavs have been downplayed due to political pressures. Albania is an ancient Slavic region, hijacked by 11/12th century Shqiptars. Shqiptarisht has been morphed by Slavic, then the stupid western scholars call Baltic, *Balticised Albanian* then inturn related to Thracian LMAO It is baltic and Slavic languages which can best solve the thracian riddle, not some young Shqiptarisht!

No Western scholar mixes Albanian with Baltic languages. Silly Albanian posters are not "Western scholars". Albania was Illyrian turned Slavic turned Albanian.

[Arbërori]

No Western scholar mixes Albanian with Baltic languages. Silly Albanian posters are not "Western scholars". Albania was Illyrian turned Slavic turned Albanian.

Slavic? :picard2:

[Petros Houhoulis]

I've read this rather famous journal previously, but the editor's conclusion doesn't fly. Of course the Slavs material cultural influence lasted, but it doesn't mean that these people were Slavs. Slav is a linguistic cultural category and these guys were Greeks who maintained some customs carried their in the Age of Migrations. Cremation burial is finished by 800AD so Slavic culture is finished there as well.

The scholars are correct. Several Slavic tribes invaded Greece, some reaching as far as the Peloponesse. Their presence far south was so insignificant, that they were Hellenized by the time the Latins conquered Constantinople in the fourth crusade.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Maybe, as you say, however there are clues lingering around the Balkans which does not fit with mainstream view. A few centuries before the Slavic migration theory, we find the toponym of SERBINUM in modern day Bosnia etc...

Mario Alinei:

- "I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the 'arrival' of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times"

- "Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs... because none of the variant versions of such late settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands."

- "The surmised 'Slavic migration' is full of inconsistencies. There is no 'northern Slavic language', it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic... The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic... and connected with Anatolia... Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age... The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture... agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs... The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven."

...And Mario Alinei is NOT a linguist...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Slavic_languages#Pre-Slavic


A pre-Slavic period began c. 1500 to 1000 BCE, whereby certain phonological changes and linguistic contacts did not disperse evenly through all Balto-Slavic dialects. The development into Proto-Slavic probably occurred along the southern periphery of the Proto-Balto-Slavic continuum. The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are found here, along the middle Dnieper, Pripet and upper Dniester rivers. This agrees well with the fact that inherited Common Slavic vocabulary does not include detailed terminology for physical surface features peculiar of the mountains or the steppe, nor any relating to the sea, to coastal features, littoral flora or fauna, or salt water fishes. On the other hand, it does include well-developed terminology for inland bodies of water (lakes, river, swamps) and kinds of forest (deciduous and coniferous), for the trees, plants, animals and birds indigenous to the temperate forest zone, and for the fish native to its waters.[7] Indeed, Trubachev argues that this location fostered contacts between speakers of Pre-Proto-Slavic with the cultural innovations which emanated from central Europe and the steppe.[8] Although language groups cannot be straightforwardly equated with archaeological cultures, the emergence of a Pre-Proto-Slavic linguistic community corresponds temporally and geographically with the Komarov and Chernoles cultures (Novotna, Blazek). Both linguists and archaeologists therefore often locate the Slavic Urheimat specifically within this area.

In proto-historical[further explanation needed] times, the Slavic homeland experienced intrusions of foreign elements. Beginning from c. 500 BCE to 200 CE, the Scythians and then the Sarmatians expanded their control into the forest steppe. A few Eastern Iranian loan words, especially relating to religious and cultural practices, have been seen as evidence of cultural influences.[9] Subsequently, loan words of Germanic origin also appear. This is connected to the movement of east Germanic groups into the Vistula basin, and subsequently to the middle Dnieper basin, associated with the appearance of the Przeworsk and Chernyakhov cultures, respectively.

Despite these developments, Slavic remained conservative and was still typologically very similar to other Balto-Slavic dialects.[10] Even into the Common Era, the various Balto-Slavic dialects formed a dialect continuum stretching from the Vistula to the Don and Oka basins, and from the Baltic and upper Volga to southern Russia and northern Ukraine.[11] Exactly when Slavs began to identify as a distinct ethno-cultural unit remains a subject of debate. For example, Kobylinski (2005) links the phenomenon to the Zarubinets culture 200 BCE to 200 CE,[12] Vlodymyr Baran places Slavic ethnogenesis within the Chernyakov era,[13] while Curta[14] places it in the Danube basin in the sixth century CE. It is likely that linguistic affinity played an important role in defining group identity for the Slavs.[15] The term Slav is proposed to be an autonym referring to "people who speak (the same language)."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Slavs - Natives and Conquerors

Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians never existed as nations and there never existed such languages as Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian. For God's sake, how the Slavs could have assimilated the huge masses of the native Balkan population without war; and how it could have happened that the Romans hadn't noticed any single war between the Balkan "aborigines" and the Slavic "newcomers"?

Romans mentioned the Illyrian kings Bardyllis, Grabos, Pleuratus, Cleitus the Illyrian, Glaukias, Bardyllis II, Monunius, Mytilus, Pleuratus II, Agron, Pinnes, Skerdilaidas, Pleuratus III, Gentius, Ballaios, Queen Teuta, Bato/Baton ((from 4th BC - 1st century AD);
Dacian, from Charnabon to Burebista and Decebalus (5th BC - 2th AD); and the Roman mentioned many of the wars they (Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians) fought against Romans and among themselves.

In the middle of the 5th century AD the Slavs "crossed" the Danube river and the all "ancient" Illyro/Dacio/Thracian people immediately disappeared without the trace. The Serbs and Croats "invaded" the Balkan Peninsula 150 years later (the beginning of the 7th century!) and no one spotted (noted) any conflict between the "autochthonous" people and their "conquerors".

All this sounds to me ludicrous, even sillier than the description of the Slavic warriors in Maurice's Strategikon, where they were described as "underwater ambushers" who were "breathing through long cane stalks". Nobody seems to be bothering to check the mentioned "underwater strategy" to see is such a "military assignment" feasible at all. Of course, it is not feasible! You cannot lie under water and breath through the cane stalk as well as it is impossible to conqer and assimilate the "aborigines" without the war.

In this specific Balkan case, the "natives" and the "conquerors" were the same people - the Slavs!

There was a war, the limes of the Eastern Roman empire in the Danube did not collapse peacefully.

Once the Roman empire collapsed, all traces of civilization disappeared, INCLUDING historiography. No literate man was left standing to describe the situation on the ground.

The accuracy of Maurices' "strategikon" is irrelevant. Maurice is not the most significant source upon the Slavic invasions.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Scholaris, don't you find it odd that there isn't a single piece of evidence, Archeological Evidence, to support the 6th century mass migration theory. How could Slavs managed to settle over HALF OF EUROPE without leaving behind any physical trace?

Something really fishy is goin on!

Linguistic assimilation does not require a total extermination and colonization. Several Slavs invaded, the majority of the locals survived, but was forced to change their language.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Slavic? :picard2:

Well, the Slavs had overrun Albania before the Albanians descended from Dacia to take over the place. Neither the Slavic language nor the Albanian language seem to be related with Illyrian, although our knowledge of Illyrian is still scarce.

[Arbërori]

Well, the Slavs had overrun Albania before the Albanians descended from Dacia to take over the place. Neither the Slavic language nor the Albanian language seem to be related with Illyrian, although our knowledge of Illyrian is still scarce.

The only Slavs in Albania are the remnants from the Bulgarian Empire. Genetically, we've been proven to be native to the lands we currently inhabit for millenia's. Whatever the Illyrians were, they were us.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The only Slavs in Albania are the remnants from the Bulgarian Empire. Genetically, we've been proven to be native to the lands we currently inhabit for millenia's. Whatever the Illyrians were, they were us.

Well, in terms of genetics, you are most certainly related to the Illyrians. I am sorry if I was not understood well enough, but I was debating language and culture.

[Arbërori]

Well, in terms of genetics, you are most certainly related to the Illyrians. I am sorry if I was not understood well enough, but I was debating language and culture.

The Dacians were a Thracian subgroup and Thracian & Illyrian were as intelligible as Polish & Slovak, almost the same.

[Kastrioti1443]

The Dacians were a Thracian subgroup and Thracian & Illyrian were as intelligible as Polish & Slovak, almost the same.

Ore, kta sllavet pak ti lesh marrin kot, mendojne ti bejne edhe tribalet '' serb'' lmao, serbet u bene si etncitet ne 1831 nga vuk karaxhixh... kemi te bejm me kafsh, me qenie inferiore, semundje kancer i ballkanit

[Kastrioti1443]

Well, in terms of genetics, you are most certainly related to the Illyrians. I am sorry if I was not understood well enough, but I was debating language and culture.

You are really well informed! Bravo!

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Dacians were a Thracian subgroup and Thracian & Illyrian were as intelligible as Polish & Slovak, almost the same.

We have insufficient knowledge of Illyrian. In any case, the Albanian language is quite close to the Romanian language, which explains why Albanian has so few Ancient Greek loan words and so many Latin loanwords: The (linguistic) ancestors of the Albanians lived north of the Jirecek line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jirecek_line

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg

[Petros Houhoulis]

You are really well informed! Bravo!

Actually the Kossovars are some of the purest in the region, with their E1b1b gene close to 50%. E1b1b is an African gene which is very common all around the south Balkans. The mountainous area of Kossovo isolated the local population allowing them to preserve a lot of their genetic makeup. All of the south Balkan nations have been very bastardized with virtually none of them having any single gene with more than 30% of the total population.

[Arbërori]

The simmilar words with Romanian are of Thracian stock, that's it. The Thracians in Dacia were Latinized due to them being in the lowlands, while we were in the refugee of our mountains and unaccessible terrain.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Illyrians never mentioned the word Illyria themselves, the Greeks and Romans named those people inhabiting the lands.
They were just a bunch of tribes spread between Dalmatia and Northern Albania. Albanians were surely one of those tribes dwelling around the mountain chains.

Albania itself is one of the most isolated places of Europe and there would have been reports of migrations from Dacia if it ever happened.

Except for the fact that a Dacian tribe descended upon them and assimilated them.

Generally speaking, there are not many cases in world history of a total genetic extinction of a people. All of them took place BEFORE/DURING the advent of advanced agriculture (better crops) in their respective area.

There were plenty of invasions in the Balkans around that time. The collapse of civilization has restricted our knowledge about that area significantly. We don't know each single tribe that invaded, because those tribes had no interest in written literature at the time, and the civilized ones turned carpet-baggers and fled away - except for those who were decimated of course.

It is quite unlikely that any of these tribes would stop to follow a questionnaire in an interview. They were more likely to kill the reporter on the spot.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The simmilar words with Romanian are of Thracian stock, that's it. The Thracians in Dacia were Latinized due to them being in the lowlands, while we were in the refugee of our mountains and unaccessible terrain.

Thracian has been classified as different from Dacian recently. In any case, in Illyria there were Illyrians, not Thracians, and the influence of Greek in Illyria was too strong - the coast was full of Greek colonies - and the presence of more Latin loan words than Ancient Greek in Albanian is problematic. You have to be descended north of the Jirecek line. Of course, not all of Albania is north of the Jirecek line... The epicenter of the Albanian language is thought to be around the Mat river. It was spread south from there, we don't know exactly where it was before.

[Arbërori]

Thracian has been classified as different from Dacian recently. In any case, in Illyria there were Illyrians, not Thracians, and the influence of Greek in Illyria was too strong - the coast was full of Greek colonies - and the presence of more Latin loan words than Ancient Greek in Albanian is problematic. You have to be descended north of the Jirecek line. Of course, not all of Albania is north of the Jirecek line... The epicenter of the Albanian language is thought to be around the Mat river. It was spread south from there, we don't know exactly where it was before.

Most probably even northern than that. Indeed, but Illyrians were not Greek, while the Thracians are regarded as somewhat Eastern Illyrians, very related.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Most probably even northern than that. Indeed, but Illyrians were not Greek, while the Thracians are regarded as somewhat Eastern Illyrians, very related.

The Illyrians most certainly were not Greek. Somebody would have noticed! Whatever Illyrian loanwords survive are not Greek. A 5-10% of the troops of Alexander the Great had Illyrian names. Most probably Lyncestians. There was a different language up there, which was certainly not Greek.

[Scholarios]

The Illyrians most certainly were not Greek. Somebody would have noticed! Whatever Illyrian loanwords survive are not Greek. A 5-10% of the troops of Alexander the Great had Illyrian names. Most probably Lyncestians. There was a different language up there, which was certainly not Greek.

Not the Agrianes?

[Skerdilaid]

Except for the fact that a Dacian tribe descended upon them and assimilated them.

Generally speaking, there are not many cases in world history of a total genetic extinction of a people. All of them took place BEFORE/DURING the advent of advanced agriculture (better crops) in their respective area.

There were plenty of invasions in the Balkans around that time. The collapse of civilization has restricted our knowledge about that area significantly. We don't know each single tribe that invaded, because those tribes had no interest in written literature at the time, and the civilized ones turned carpet-baggers and fled away - except for those who were decimated of course.

It is quite unlikely that any of these tribes would stop to follow a questionnaire in an interview. They were more likely to kill the reporter on the spot.

The Illyrians that inhabited today's northern Albania, Montenegro and Hecegovina were the most warlike tribes of the whole region, so in conclusion it's unlikely that low land tribe would have been able to assimilate them in such a short period. Romans also avoided these regions or paid these tribes to protect the trade routs.

[Novi Pazar]

Linguistic assimilation does not require a total extermination and colonization. Several Slavs invaded, the majority of the locals survived, but was forced to change their language.

Petros, again, it does not make any sense, locals FORCED to change language and then later reverting? Again, as l have been saying, where were the wars between the so-called natives and barbarian slavs? If the region was inhabited, l find it extraordinary for natives to give up so easily and assimilate without any resistance! There isn't a single documented reference, mentioning of Slavs, who INVADED, annihilated or even assimilated older and native peoples of the region!

If there was a migration, it would had been slavs invading slavs, it would best explain a so-called easy assimilation process!

[Arbërori]

If there was a migration, it would had been slavs invading Albanians, it would best explain the assimilation process!

http://i.imgur.com/Utz9KUu.gif

[Novi Pazar]

Well, in terms of genetics, you are most certainly related to the Illyrians. I am sorry if I was not understood well enough, but I was debating language and culture.

No, they are NOT! Genetically Siptars (Albanians) are genetically related to North Africans. Petros, Siptars arrive as footsoilders who served in Byzantine military back in the 11th cent.

[Arbërori]

No, they are NOT! Genetically Slavs are genetically related to North Africans. Petros, Slavs arrive as footsoilders who served in Byzantine military back in the 11th cent.

http://i.imgur.com/ugh3Trh.gif

[Crn Volk]

No, they are NOT! Genetically Siptars (Albanians) are genetically related to North Africans. Petros, Siptars arrive as footsoilders who served in Byzantine military back in the 11th cent.

From Caucasian Albania I believe....

[Arbërori]

From Caucasian Albania I believe....

http://i.imgur.com/464ysuB.gif

[Novi Pazar]

From Caucasian Albania I believe....

Sokol, Michael Attaleiates brought Siptar-Albs over from Sicily in his war against Serbs! They were first mentioned in Byzantine records at 1079 - 81 (in Balkans). Byzantium lost their war and deserted the siptar-albs (dismissed), siptar-albs PLEADED with Serbs to LET THEM STAY, they agreed, and they settled around Raban, hence the old Serbian term for siptar-albs as arbanasi or rabanasi!

We all know Siptar-Albs are NOT Illyrians:


"The other 'theory' states that the Albanians are Illyrians, the indigenous people in the Balkans, while the Serbs were an unknown Barbarian horde which came to their land from 600 - 1000AD.

This 'theory' was FORCED upon Serbia after the CONGRESS OF BERLIN FROM THE GERMANIC SCHOOL, OR THE NORDIC HISTORIAN SCHOOL.

The German historian TUNMAN. ca 1774AD, MADE UP THE OTHER 'THEORY', but his thesis never had, nor has, any archaelogical, historical, linguistical, or ethnographical evidences/sources"


Before the Nordic School decided Siptars are Illyrians (due to politics), it was mentioned by many historians that Slavs were the Illyrians and Thracians:

"In the 14th century AD, Eusebius Pamphili says that Tiberus won over the "Serbian Dalmatians" ca. 9AD; in the 17th Century AD. Jordandes, a Goth historian, says that the VENEDI, ANTES, and Slavs originated from Sarmatians which were Serbians!


"Nestor from Kiev in his chronicle explains that the origins of SLAVS IS FROM ILLYRIA, and adds some tribes that fled NORTH and EAST on the EVE OF THE ROMAN CONQUESTS OF ILLYRIA!"

"On page 10, APPIANI ALEXANDRINI, in the Second Century BCE, says that the Roman military leader, Flavius Flachus, campaigned in 135 BCE against the Serbs around the river Nevetva; these people are also known as Illyrians and Dalmatians."

Finally Byzantines labelled Serbs as a tribe of Triballians (Thracians)!

[Petros Houhoulis]

Not the Agrianes?

The Agrianes were never incorporated into the Macedonian kingdom. They were allies, not Macedonians.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Illyrians that inhabited today's northern Albania, Montenegro and Hecegovina were the most warlike tribes of the whole region, so in conclusion it's unlikely that low land tribe would have been able to assimilate them in such a short period. Romans also avoided these regions or paid these tribes to protect the trade routs.

Being warlike does not warranty the survival of your language. The Illyrians and the Isaurians were amongst the most warlike tribes and provided scores of emperors for the Late Roman - East Roman empire. Do you know what happened to their languages?

[riverman]

So then albos would be related to slavs, though people say otherwise, think about it, if albos are Illyrian derived then they're related to slavs who are Illyrian derived. opinions??

[Novi Pazar]

So then albos would be related to slavs, though people say otherwise, think about it, if albos are Illyrian derived then they're related to slavs who are Illyrian derived. opinions??

Albanians did most of their assimilation of Slavs during the Ottoman period! Think about it, OVER 40 GRAND VIZIERS WERE ALBANIANS! A massive proportion of Albanians selected and favored by Ottomans to be Grand Viziers from a tiny population base. These Albanian Grand Viziers were horrendous in Kosovo and Western Macedonia, and even to the Slavic population of Albania. Slavic populations of Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were terrorised to the point of OUTWARDLY expressing themselves as Muslims and Albanians, but AT HOME they spoke their mother Slavic language. Once these Slavs began to lose ethnic consciousness by marrying Albanian-Gheg Women, all that was left were Slavic surnames! Some of these ex-slavic Albanians still carry their old ancestral names. Good case study for you to learn is the Albanianisation process of Serbs/Montenegrin/Macedonian peoples known today as the Gorani or Torbesh peoples of Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia.

To properly answer your quote, the Albanians ARN'T Illyrians, there is NO memory from them of being Illyrians! I know of a historian who calls Baltic language group as, 'Balticised Albanian'! Balts and Albanians never made contact with each other, but Slavic a sister language group HAS, it has morphed Albanian entirely to contain many loans and even structural elements within it.

I WANT YOU TO THINK THIS THROUGH FOR WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY:

If Albanians are the so-called Illyrians and Slavs arn't, why has Albanian language contain so many loans of slavic origin, to the point that its even influenced its structure, whilst SLAVIC, has zero Albanian loans. If the barbarian Serbs/Slavs conquered the Illyrians there would had been the subsequent ABSORBTION of Albanian loans into the Serbian language, however it is ZERO! Take at look at Turkish absorption of Persian into their language by conquered peoples, in Anatolia.

PS Everything in Albania is Slavic derived!

[Guapo]

http://i.imgur.com/464ysuB.gif

listen to your mother tongue, european? No way lulz

[Novi Pazar]

listen to your mother tongue, european? No way lulz

Guapo, they even have SERBIAN loans for HIGHLAND VEGETATION! Weren't they supposed to be obscured from the lowland Barbarian Serbian Slavs, where their language morphed into a weird combination of Slavic and ancient illyro-shqip, in-complete ISOLATION for 1000 years, must be a coincidence, a fluke!

How did the ancient illyro-shqips survive up in the SKY for 1000 years, what was the trigger for them to come down like GODS?

[Arbërori]

Guapo, they even have SERBIAN loans for HIGHLAND VEGETATION! Weren't they supposed to be obscured from the lowland Barbarian Serbian Slavs, where their language morphed into a weird combination of Slavic and ancient illyro-shqip, in-complete ISOLATION for 1000 years, must be a coincidence, a fluke!

How did the ancient illyro-shqips survive up in the SKY for 1000 years, what was the trigger for them to come down like GODS?

Such as? :rotfl:

Stop lying, you rabid dog.

[Skerdilaid]

Guapo, they even have SERBIAN loans for HIGHLAND VEGETATION! Weren't they supposed to be obscured from the lowland Barbarian Serbian Slavs, where their language morphed into a weird combination of Slavic and ancient illyro-shqip, in-complete ISOLATION for 1000 years, must be a coincidence, a fluke!

How did the ancient illyro-shqips survive up in the SKY for 1000 years, what was the trigger for them to come down like GODS?


ZEUS gave the orders and we just obeyed.:p

If you have any issues take it up with him:)

[Novi Pazar]

Such as? :rotfl:

Stop lying, you rabid dog.

A liar calling someone else a liar, how sweet.

Slavic loans for highland vegetation is noted, it destroys the MYTH of the mountain theory invented by Austro-Hungarians. If your not happy then bring this up with Robert Elsie, an Albanianologist!

DENDRONYMICA ALBANICA, A SURVEY OF ALBANIAN TREE AND SHRUB NAMES
by
ROBERT ELSIE

Bagrem, bagremi ‘Common acacia’ ~ Serbocr. bàgrem,
Ballgun, ballguni ‘Hungarian oak’ ~ Mac. blagun,
Belot, beloti ‘Buckthorn’ ~ Bulg. belota,
Borigë, boriga ‘Austrian pine’ ~ Bulg. or Serb. borika,
Brosht, broshti ‘Venetian sumach’ ~ Bulg. brošt, brozhd,
Cërmëdell, cërmëdelli ‘Venetian sumach’ ~ Mac. …ervendalest,
Çetinë, çetina ‘Austrian pine’ ~ Serb. …ètina,
Gorricë, gorrica ‘Wild pear’ ~ Bulg. gornica,
Kërlekë, kërleka ‘Mountain pine’ ~ Serbocr. kleka,
Konopicë, konopica ‘Chaste tree’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. konop,
Lis, lisi ‘Tree, Oak tree’ ~ OCS lsX, Serbocr. lijes,
Molikë, molika ‘Macedonian pine’ ~ Serbocr. molika,
Rrap, rrapi ‘Oriental plane’ ~ OCS rpina,
Tis, tisi ‘Common yew’ ~ Serbocr. tisa,
Vishnjë, vishnja ‘Morello cherry’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. višnja.

I seriously don't know why Siptari can even laugh when lying! Its their innate nature. Anyway, the majority are directly loaned from SERBIAN! They are HIGHLAND vegetation names in Shqiptarisht.

[Arbërori]

A liar calling someone else a liar, how sweet.

Slavic loans for highland vegetation is noted, it destroys the MYTH of the mountain theory invented by Austro-Hungarians. If your not happy then bring this up with Robert Elsie, an Albanianologist!

Stop bullshitting and tell me those so-called 'Slavic' words. :coffee:

[riverman]

Albanians did most of their assimilation of Slavs during the Ottoman period! Think about it, OVER 40 GRAND VIZIERS WERE ALBANIANS! A massive proportion of Albanians selected and favored by Ottomans to be Grand Viziers from a tiny population base. These Albanian Grand Viziers were horrendous in Kosovo and Western Macedonia, and even to the Slavic population of Albania. Slavic populations of Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were terrorised to the point of OUTWARDLY expressing themselves as Muslims and Albanians, but AT HOME they spoke their mother Slavic language. Once these Slavs began to lose ethnic consciousness by marrying Albanian-Gheg Women, all that was left were Slavic surnames! Some of these ex-slavic Albanians still carry their old ancestral names. Good case study for you to learn is the Albanianisation process of Serbs/Montenegrin/Macedonian peoples known today as the Gorani or Torbesh peoples of Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia.

To properly answer your quote, the Albanians ARN'T Illyrians, there is NO memory from them of being Illyrians! I know of a historian who calls Baltic language group as, 'Balticised Albanian'! Balts and Albanians never made contact with each other, but Slavic a sister language group HAS, it has morphed Albanian entirely to contain many loans and even structural elements within it.

I WANT YOU TO THINK THIS THROUGH FOR WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY:

If Albanians are the so-called Illyrians and Slavs arn't, why has Albanian language contain so many loans of slavic origin, to the point that its even influenced its structure, whilst SLAVIC, has zero Albanian loans. If the barbarian Serbs/Slavs conquered the Illyrians there would had been the subsequent ABSORBTION of Albanian loans into the Serbian language, however it is ZERO! Take at look at Turkish absorption of Persian into their language by conquered peoples, in Anatolia.

PS Everything in Albania is Slavic derived!


o.k. so what are the origins of the albos then.

[Novi Pazar]

Stop bullshitting and tell me those so-called 'Slavic' words. :coffee:

DENDRONYMICA ALBANICA, A SURVEY OF ALBANIAN TREE AND SHRUB NAMES
by
ROBERT ELSIE

Bagrem, bagremi ‘Common acacia’ ~ Serbocr. bàgrem,
Ballgun, ballguni ‘Hungarian oak’ ~ Mac. blagun,
Belot, beloti ‘Buckthorn’ ~ Bulg. belota,
Borigë, boriga ‘Austrian pine’ ~ Bulg. or Serb. borika,
Brosht, broshti ‘Venetian sumach’ ~ Bulg. brošt, brozhd,
Cërmëdell, cërmëdelli ‘Venetian sumach’ ~ Mac. …ervendalest,
Çetinë, çetina ‘Austrian pine’ ~ Serb. …ètina,
Gorricë, gorrica ‘Wild pear’ ~ Bulg. gornica,
Kërlekë, kërleka ‘Mountain pine’ ~ Serbocr. kleka,
Konopicë, konopica ‘Chaste tree’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. konop,
Lis, lisi ‘Tree, Oak tree’ ~ OCS lsX, Serbocr. lijes,
Molikë, molika ‘Macedonian pine’ ~ Serbocr. molika,
Rrap, rrapi ‘Oriental plane’ ~ OCS rpina,
Tis, tisi ‘Common yew’ ~ Serbocr. tisa,
Vishnjë, vishnja ‘Morello cherry’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. višnja.

[Arbërori]

DENDRONYMICA ALBANICA, A SURVEY OF ALBANIAN TREE AND SHRUB NAMES
by
ROBERT ELSIE

Bagrem, bagremi ‘Common acacia’ ~ Serbocr. bàgrem,
Ballgun, ballguni ‘Hungarian oak’ ~ Mac. blagun,
Belot, beloti ‘Buckthorn’ ~ Bulg. belota,
Pishe Austriake ‘Austrian pine’ ~ Bulg. or Serb. borika,
Valanidhi Venecian ‘Venetian sumach’ ~ Bulg. brošt, brozhd,
Dardhe e eger ‘Wild pear’ ~ Bulg. gornica,
Pishe Mali ‘Mountain pine’ ~ Serbocr. kleka,
Peme Delire ‘Chaste tree’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. konop,
Lis, lisi ‘Tree, Oak tree’ ~ OCS lsX, Serbocr. lijes,
Pishe Maqedone ‘Macedonian pine’ ~ Serbocr. molika,
Rrap, rrapi ‘Oriental plane’ ~ OCS rpina,
Tis, tisi ‘Common yew’ ~ Serbocr. tisa,
Qershi ‘Morello cherry’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. višnja.

Fixed. :picard2:

[Novi Pazar]

^ LMAO, oh no, its been shqiptarised! I thank Robert Elsie for studying and finding the already known Serbian loans in your Shqiptarisht! More will come, it will be fun wiping your siptar backside!

[Guapo]

Pwned, good job Novi.

[Arbërori]

^ LMAO, oh no, its been shqiptarised! I thank Robert Elsie for studying and finding the already known Serbian loans in your Shqiptarisht! More will come, it will be fun wiping your siptar backside!

Which words were Albanized? None, nicht, nada, ništa, nič, asgje, fuck off.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, again, it does not make any sense, locals FORCED to change language and then later reverting? Again, as l have been saying, where were the wars between the so-called natives and barbarian slavs? If the region was inhabited, l find it extraordinary for natives to give up so easily and assimilate without any resistance! There isn't a single documented reference, mentioning of Slavs, who INVADED, annihilated or even assimilated older and native peoples of the region!

If there was a migration, it would had been slavs invading slavs, it would best explain a so-called easy assimilation process!

The locals were forced to change their language from Illyrian to Slavic and then from Slavic to Albanian. They never reverted.

The wars were there, but once the Roman empire lost control of these areas, all traces of civilization vanished. Historiography is a part of what we call civilization.

There are documents showing the invasion of Slavic tribes all the way to Greece:

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html

The Slavs used to be allied to stronger tribes. At first they were attached to the Avars, later to the Bulgars. The Servs were practically invited by the East Roman empire to colonize depopulated areas...

[Petros Houhoulis]

No, they are NOT! Genetically Siptars (Albanians) are genetically related to North Africans. Petros, Siptars arrive as footsoilders who served in Byzantine military back in the 11th cent.

We are all related to North Africans more or less. The Albanians are a bit more pure in their North African strain. At least us, because from Serbia and further north the usual Mediterranean mixture of genes gets thinner.

[Scholarios]

DENDRONYMICA ALBANICA, A SURVEY OF ALBANIAN TREE AND SHRUB NAMES
by
ROBERT ELSIE

Bagrem, bagremi ‘Common acacia’ ~ Serbocr. bàgrem,
Ballgun, ballguni ‘Hungarian oak’ ~ Mac. blagun,
Belot, beloti ‘Buckthorn’ ~ Bulg. belota,
Borigë, boriga ‘Austrian pine’ ~ Bulg. or Serb. borika,
Brosht, broshti ‘Venetian sumach’ ~ Bulg. brošt, brozhd,
Cërmëdell, cërmëdelli ‘Venetian sumach’ ~ Mac. …ervendalest,
Çetinë, çetina ‘Austrian pine’ ~ Serb. …ètina,
Gorricë, gorrica ‘Wild pear’ ~ Bulg. gornica,
Kërlekë, kërleka ‘Mountain pine’ ~ Serbocr. kleka,
Konopicë, konopica ‘Chaste tree’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. konop,
Lis, lisi ‘Tree, Oak tree’ ~ OCS lsX, Serbocr. lijes,
Molikë, molika ‘Macedonian pine’ ~ Serbocr. molika,
Rrap, rrapi ‘Oriental plane’ ~ OCS rpina,
Tis, tisi ‘Common yew’ ~ Serbocr. tisa,
Vishnjë, vishnja ‘Morello cherry’ ~ Serbocr. & Bulg. višnja.

I remember off the top of my head that ora- - walnut tree is in Albanian arra, right? or something like that. Even this word got into Greek place names as "Arachova" so I think it's not PIE but instead a Slavonic loanword.

[Petros Houhoulis]

From Caucasian Albania I believe....

Keep masturbating... The Caucasian Albanian language was not even Indo-European.

[Arbërori]

I remember off the top of my head that ora- - walnut tree is in Albanian arra, right? or something like that. Even this word got into Greek place names as "Arachova" so I think it's not PIE but instead a Slavonic loanword.

Arre might be related to Slavic 'oreh/orah' indeed, but the rest are just made up! :wink

[Petros Houhoulis]

Sokol, Michael Attaleiates brought Siptar-Albs over from Sicily in his war against Serbs! They were first mentioned in Byzantine records at 1079 - 81 (in Balkans). Byzantium lost their war and deserted the siptar-albs (dismissed), siptar-albs PLEADED with Serbs to LET THEM STAY, they agreed, and they settled around Raban, hence the old Serbian term for siptar-albs as arbanasi or rabanasi!

We all know Siptar-Albs are NOT Illyrians:


"The other 'theory' states that the Albanians are Illyrians, the indigenous people in the Balkans, while the Serbs were an unknown Barbarian horde which came to their land from 600 - 1000AD.

This 'theory' was FORCED upon Serbia after the CONGRESS OF BERLIN FROM THE GERMANIC SCHOOL, OR THE NORDIC HISTORIAN SCHOOL.

The German historian TUNMAN. ca 1774AD, MADE UP THE OTHER 'THEORY', but his thesis never had, nor has, any archaelogical, historical, linguistical, or ethnographical evidences/sources"


Before the Nordic School decided Siptars are Illyrians (due to politics), it was mentioned by many historians that Slavs were the Illyrians and Thracians:

"In the 14th century AD, Eusebius Pamphili says that Tiberus won over the "Serbian Dalmatians" ca. 9AD; in the 17th Century AD. Jordandes, a Goth historian, says that the VENEDI, ANTES, and Slavs originated from Sarmatians which were Serbians!


"Nestor from Kiev in his chronicle explains that the origins of SLAVS IS FROM ILLYRIA, and adds some tribes that fled NORTH and EAST on the EVE OF THE ROMAN CONQUESTS OF ILLYRIA!"

"On page 10, APPIANI ALEXANDRINI, in the Second Century BCE, says that the Roman military leader, Flavius Flachus, campaigned in 135 BCE against the Serbs around the river Nevetva; these people are also known as Illyrians and Dalmatians."

Finally Byzantines labelled Serbs as a tribe of Triballians (Thracians)!

Nope. If the Albanians had origins from Italy, their language would be Centum and not Satem.

It is simply impossible.

[Petros Houhoulis]

So then albos would be related to slavs, though people say otherwise, think about it, if albos are Illyrian derived then they're related to slavs who are Illyrian derived. opinions??

Probably neither of them are Illyrian derived. The real problem is that we know virtually nothing about the Illyrian language. If it was Centum, forget the relationship with both of them...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Albanians did most of their assimilation of Slavs during the Ottoman period! Think about it, OVER 40 GRAND VIZIERS WERE ALBANIANS! A massive proportion of Albanians selected and favored by Ottomans to be Grand Viziers from a tiny population base. These Albanian Grand Viziers were horrendous in Kosovo and Western Macedonia, and even to the Slavic population of Albania. Slavic populations of Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were terrorised to the point of OUTWARDLY expressing themselves as Muslims and Albanians, but AT HOME they spoke their mother Slavic language. Once these Slavs began to lose ethnic consciousness by marrying Albanian-Gheg Women, all that was left were Slavic surnames! Some of these ex-slavic Albanians still carry their old ancestral names. Good case study for you to learn is the Albanianisation process of Serbs/Montenegrin/Macedonian peoples known today as the Gorani or Torbesh peoples of Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia.

To properly answer your quote, the Albanians ARN'T Illyrians, there is NO memory from them of being Illyrians! I know of a historian who calls Baltic language group as, 'Balticised Albanian'! Balts and Albanians never made contact with each other, but Slavic a sister language group HAS, it has morphed Albanian entirely to contain many loans and even structural elements within it.

I WANT YOU TO THINK THIS THROUGH FOR WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY:

If Albanians are the so-called Illyrians and Slavs arn't, why has Albanian language contain so many loans of slavic origin, to the point that its even influenced its structure, whilst SLAVIC, has zero Albanian loans. If the barbarian Serbs/Slavs conquered the Illyrians there would had been the subsequent ABSORBTION of Albanian loans into the Serbian language, however it is ZERO! Take at look at Turkish absorption of Persian into their language by conquered peoples, in Anatolia.

PS Everything in Albania is Slavic derived!

Well, not everything in Albania is Slavic derived, but the Slavs dominated the Illyrian coast long before the arrival of the Albanians there.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Guapo, they even have SERBIAN loans for HIGHLAND VEGETATION! Weren't they supposed to be obscured from the lowland Barbarian Serbian Slavs, where their language morphed into a weird combination of Slavic and ancient illyro-shqip, in-complete ISOLATION for 1000 years, must be a coincidence, a fluke!

How did the ancient illyro-shqips survive up in the SKY for 1000 years, what was the trigger for them to come down like GODS?

They didn't "come down like gods". If you ask me the most probable is that they were Roman soldiers superficially Latinized who were left behind when the borders collapsed and the Slavs flooded the Balkans. Once they realized that Roman authority was not going to return, they chose to move down and reach it, and they succeeded because they had a certain knowledge of the art of war. Once they arrived in Albania though, the locals already spoke Slavic and they had to add Serbian and perhaps even Bulgarian words in their vocabulary because of the contact.

[Arbërori]

Petros, I agree with many of your arguments, but we've always been native to Albania.

[Skerdilaid]

I remember off the top of my head that ora- - walnut tree is in Albanian arra, right? or something like that. Even this word got into Greek place names as "Arachova" so I think it's not PIE but instead a Slavonic loanword.

Arra ( Walnut ) could very well be a slavic borrowing but it has no conection to Ara.

Ara is not a Slavic word, in Albanian it meas farm land or field.

[Kastrioti1443]

a liar calling someone else a liar, how sweet.

Slavic loans for highland vegetation is noted, it destroys the myth of the mountain theory invented by austro-hungarians. If your not happy then bring this up with robert elsie, an albanianologist!

Dendronymica albanica, a survey of albanian tree and shrub names
by
robert elsie

bagrem, bagremi ‘common acacia’ ~ serbocr. Bàgrem,
ballgun, ballguni ‘hungarian oak’ ~ mac. Blagun,
belot, beloti ‘buckthorn’ ~ bulg. Belota,
borigë, boriga ‘austrian pine’ ~ bulg. Or serb. Borika,
brosht, broshti ‘venetian sumach’ ~ bulg. Brošt, brozhd,
cërmëdell, cërmëdelli ‘venetian sumach’ ~ mac. …ervendalest,
Çetinë, çetina ‘austrian pine’ ~ serb. …ètina,
gorricë, gorrica ‘wild pear’ ~ bulg. Gornica,
kërlekë, kërleka ‘mountain pine’ ~ serbocr. Kleka,
konopicë, konopica ‘chaste tree’ ~ serbocr. & bulg. Konop,
lis, lisi ‘tree, oak tree’ ~ ocs lsx, serbocr. Lijes,
molikë, molika ‘macedonian pine’ ~ serbocr. Molika,
rrap, rrapi ‘oriental plane’ ~ ocs rpina,
tis, tisi ‘common yew’ ~ serbocr. Tisa,
vishnjë, vishnja ‘morello cherry’ ~ serbocr. & bulg. Višnja.

I seriously don't know why siptari can even laugh when lying! Its their innate nature. Anyway, the majority are directly loaned from serbian! They are highland vegetation names in shqiptarisht.

listen here serbian nigger. There is not such a thing as '' serbian '' language. The serbian language itself is a hybrid between bulgarian ( mother of slavic languages) , russian and latin. It was created as a language in 1831 by the serbian with albanian orthodox heritage, vuk karaxhixh, he spent 30 yeears with russian academicas to create what is called today '' serbo-croatian". So if these words above are borrowed, they are borrowed from bulgarians or slavic, not serbian, because it didn't exust back than.

Secondly, 80% of the words above do not exist in albanian, at least for once be credible and speak the truth you fucking iranian-turkish mixture. There is no book were eli writes such a thing, subhuman.

And please do not act like scandinavians. Evan if you would whiter, it would be normal, since you are slavs, but not you are not whiter, but we are whiter than you, evan twice i can say ( because you are slavicised iranians). Evan southern albanian tosks have twice the amount of light eyes you have, you iranian from kazakistan.

[Kastrioti1443]

Actually the Kossovars are some of the purest in the region, with their E1b1b gene close to 50%. E1b1b is an African gene which is very common all around the south Balkans. The mountainous area of Kossovo isolated the local population allowing them to preserve a lot of their genetic makeup. All of the south Balkan nations have been very bastardized with virtually none of them having any single gene with more than 30% of the total population.

Somehow, but the percentage of the haplogroups does not mean bastardisation. EV-13 it might have come from middle east 12,000 ago with mesolithic settlers or evan created in Balkan. It is thought that the dinaric race derives from central anatolia. This gene does not come from northern africa because the berid race ( north african race) is totally absent in balkan and a bit common in italy and iberian penisula. Anthropology explains everything sometimes.

It also worthed to be mentioned that where this haplogroup is found the people are very tall.

[Novi Pazar]

The locals were forced to change their language from Illyrian to Slavic and then from Slavic to Albanian. They never reverted.

The wars were there, but once the Roman empire lost control of these areas, all traces of civilization vanished. Historiography is a part of what we call civilization.

There are documents showing the invasion of Slavic tribes all the way to Greece:

http://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html

The Slavs used to be allied to stronger tribes. At first they were attached to the Avars, later to the Bulgars. The Servs were practically invited by the East Roman empire to colonize depopulated areas...

Petros, this is nonsense, it could never have happened, switching from ancient illyrian to slavic then to Albanian. Why do you think westerners INVENTED the MOUNTAIN THEORY? They invented this MYTH because Shqiptar-Albs have no leg to stand on inside modern Shqiperia! The mountain theory STATES ancient illyrians FLED to the HIGHLANDS of central Albania because barbarian Slavs invaded the lowlands; in isolation, from cilivisation, the Illyrian language morphed INTO Shqiptarisht up in the highlands, and when the time was right, they came down and defeated the barbarian slavs!

CAN YOU FIND ME ANY REFERENCE OF SHQIPTARIAN-ALBS PRIOR TO 11th CENT AD. SLAVS WERE WELL KNOWN TO BYZANTIUM EVEN IN THE 6TH CENT, THEY EVEN FOUND THEMSELVES TO BE EMPERORS/PRIESTS/ADMINISTRATORS and SOLIDERS! SO WHERE ARE THE SO CALLED ANCIENT SIPTARI in BYZANTINE RECORDS PRIOR TO THE LATE 11TH CENT AD!

SLAVS DID NO FLY UNDER THE RAIDER AND MURDERED ALL, THE ROMANS WOULD HAD DOCUMENTED IT!

PS NO MORE SPECULATIVE THEORIES, I WANT HARDCORE EVIDENCE!

[Novi Pazar]

I would like Siptarians or anybody else to even answer this simple question. Why does Serbian Slavic contain absolutely ZERO ancient illyro-shqip, whilst illyro-shqip has an array of Serbian LOAN words?

Isn't it strange, Turks from central asia when THEY conquered asia minor, not only they ABSORBED the people but even their WORDS/CULTURES and CUISINES, moreso, WE HAVE EVIDENCE of peoples not easily assimilated into the alien Turkish authority for hundreds of years, BUT, when it comes to the SLAVIC regions of the Balkans, its in REVERSE, with many stupid Siptarian theories!

No one has still answered why the invading slavs of the 6th century, SO EASILY, assimilated people WITHOUT A TRACE!

[Arbërori]

I would like Siptarians or anybody else to even answer this simple question. Why does Serbian Slavic contain absolutely ZERO ancient illyro-shqip, whilst illyro-shqip has an array of Serbian LOAN words?

Isn't it strange, Turks from central asia when THEY conquered asia minor, not only they ABSORBED the people but even their WORDS/CULTURES and CUISINES, moreso, WE HAVE EVIDENCE of peoples not easily assimilated into the alien Turkish authority for hundreds of years, BUT, when it comes to the SLAVIC regions of the Balkans, its in REVERSE, with many stupid Siptarian theories!

No one has still answered why the invading slavs of the 6th century, SO EASILY, assimilated people WITHOUT A TRACE!

Your towns alone are of Illyro-Albanian etymologyes. :coffee:

False, the Byzantines recorded it very well, it was a) forced and b) through intermarriage. You were barbarians, no wonder.

[Novi Pazar]

Your towns alone are of Illyro-Albanian etymologyes. :coffee:

False, the Byzantines recorded it very well, it was a) forced and b) through intermarriage. You were barbarians, no wonder.

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO i'm not a 2 year old child, l might be DOUBLE your age!

[Arbërori]

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO i'm not a 2 year old child, l might be DOUBLE your age!

You can start off with Nish, thank you and goodbye! :coffee:

[epirot]

Novi bro, ne predaje se. Oni su svi glupi, osim Scholarios Chiotis, ko je ultra dobar covjek! LMAO @albancima ovdje!!! HA HA HA HA HA, posebno sa kastrioti-om. LMAO

[Arbërori]

Novi bro, ne predaje se. Oni su svi glupi, osim Scholarios Chiotis, ko je ultra dobar covjek! LMAO @albancima ovdje!!! HA HA HA HA HA, posebno sa kastrioti-om. LMAO

Ma kako si ti glup, smece jedno. :rotfl:

Btw, Novi doesn't speak Sprski. :coffee:

[Novi Pazar]

Ma kako si ti glup, smece jedno. :rotfl:

Btw, Novi doesn't speak Sprski. :coffee:

Molim, siptarsko jedno, nema mesta za tvoj laza tudije, i isto, mi nemamo vreme za tvoj, 'okretanje', bolje da kazem, tvoj siptarsko.....propagandeeeeeee.

Get lost brainless soul!

[Arbërori]

Molim, siptarsko jedno, nema mesta za tvoj laza tudije, i isto, mi nemamo vreme za tvoj, 'okretanje', bolje da kazem, tvoj siptarsko.....propagandeeeeeee.

Get lost brainless soul!

Ma crkni debile, neznas ni tvoj jezik pricati, kamoli moj. :rotfl:

Go learn Serbian pathetic fool!

[Novi Pazar]

Novi bro, ne predaje se. Oni su svi glupi, osim Scholarios Chiotis, ko je ultra dobar covjek! LMAO @albancima ovdje!!! HA HA HA HA HA, posebno sa kastrioti-om. LMAO

On je pametan chovek, nije on glup kao neki siptari tu u ovaj forum. Ja i ti brate, necamo se predajiti! Siptari nemaju nista u nasa Balkansko region, oni su kao cigani, dosli i ustanoviti ko neki nomadski ljudi od sevreno afrika LMAO

[Novi Pazar]

Ma crkni debile, neznas ni tvoj jezik pricati, kamoli moj. :rotfl:

Go learn Serbian pathetic fool!

There is nothing wrong with what was written, siptar!

Time to learn some history

I'm not here for some siptarian tip for tat BS!

[Arbërori]

On je pametan chovek, nije on glup kao neki siptari tu u ovaj forum. Ja i ti brate, necamo se predajiti! Siptari nemaju nista u nasa Balkansko region, oni su kao cigani, dosli i ustanoviti ko neki nomadski ljudi od sevreno afrika LMAO

Ma i ciganin prica bolje Sprski nego ti, aman ako je iko ovdje cigan, si to ti!

[Arbërori]

There is nothing wrong with what was written, siptar!

Time to learn some history

I'm not here for some siptarian tip for tat BS!

Time to pusiti some good ol' Albo kurac, pederu.

You can shove that 'history' of yours up your... :coffee:

[Novi Pazar]

^ Novi, once more proved your siptar backside wrong, hey cigo!

Btw, Novi doesn't speak Sprski.


PS Classic siptarsko no brainer! Imase mnogo budali od siptarski svet!

[Arbërori]

^ Novi, once more proved your siptar backside wrong, hey cigo!

Btw, Novi doesn't speak Sprski.


PS Classic siptarsko no brainer! Imase mnogo budali od siptarski svet!

Dream on, seljak. :rotfl:

Ofcourse you do, Sprski is your mothertongue. That's not Bulgarian btw, it's Novopazarian, as it seems!

[Petros Houhoulis]

I wonder; if the Byzantines hadn't managed to reassert authority in Greece that the region would have been made Slavic or the newcomers would have assimilated?

That depends on the Bulgarians and the Serbs who managed to create states during the Middle Ages. The Slavs of Greece failed to create any state and kept fighting with each other. They were in no position to create a state of their own.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I don't know about 'any'. There are many Slavic toponyms for example. The numbers however may not have been so great. As for the East and West Slavs, they two have been mixed with various other peoples, so you can't take them as examples of Slavdom, and those in the south as non-Slavs.

Too bad those Ancient toponyms were Thracian.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Maybe the Slavs are natives? Where are the wars between Barbarian Slavs and so called natives? The toponym Serbinum was noted during the 2nd cent, the Triballians, a Thracian tribe, was linked to the Serbs. There are scholars who believe Thracians were actually Slavs, the only language group which can properly translate Thracian words most efficiently is SLAVIC!

The Slavs of the south Balkans used to be Thracians, but the Thracians were not the direct LINGUISTIC ancestors of the Slavs. Thracian words have slightly more cognates with Baltic than Slavic languages.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Good point - check out old map of Thracians...

http://www.farsarotul.org/images/NL26_4F.jpg

Coincidence?

http://vardaraxios.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/slavs_map3.jpg

The "Old Map of the Thracians" is bollocks. For one thing, the Thracians in this ridiculous map have "wiped out" the Illyrians, yet we all know that the Illyrians were near the Adriatic, as well as Celts and many others, but not the Thracians.

[Petros Houhoulis]

trolol slavs being native to balkans?i dont think east or west slavs were wog looking like greeks or albanians,you are just slavisied woggy southeast euros people,just accept it

real slavs=russiand and ukraines to me

Actually the name "Slav" was used for Danubian/Balkan populations first. The Russians picked up the name "Slavic" later.

[Arbërori]

The Slavs of the south Balkans used to be Thracians, but the Thracians were not the direct LINGUISTIC ancestors of the Slavs. Thracian words have slightly more cognates with Baltic than Slavic languages.

Thracians were not Slavs. :lol:

[Scholarios]

Slavs were Thracians, Thracians were not Slavs; Arberori

[Arbërori]

Slavs were Thracians, Thracians were not Slavs; Arberori

I apologize, I misunderstood! :P

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, I agree with many of your arguments, but we've always been native to Albania.

The most of you are native as people, but not as culture. You are native somewhere in the Balkans NORTH of the Jirecek line.

[Arbërori]

The most of you are native as people, but not as culture. You are native somewhere in the Balkans NORTH of the Jirecek line.

So that makes the culture suddenly alien to the Balkans? :lol:

[safinator]

The most of you are native as people, but not as culture. You are native somewhere in the Balkans NORTH of the Jirecek line.

I'm of the idea that ethnogenesis of Albanians is around today Bosnia&Herzegovina, Steven Bird (A renowned geneticist) found the highest variance of E-V13 in Bosnia.

[Petros Houhoulis]

listen here serbian nigger. There is not such a thing as '' serbian '' language. The serbian language itself is a hybrid between bulgarian ( mother of slavic languages) , russian and latin. It was created as a language in 1831 by the serbian with albanian orthodox heritage, vuk karaxhixh, he spent 30 yeears with russian academicas to create what is called today '' serbo-croatian". So if these words above are borrowed, they are borrowed from bulgarians or slavic, not serbian, because it didn't exust back than.

Secondly, 80% of the words above do not exist in albanian, at least for once be credible and speak the truth you fucking iranian-turkish mixture. There is no book were eli writes such a thing, subhuman.

And please do not act like scandinavians. Evan if you would whiter, it would be normal, since you are slavs, but not you are not whiter, but we are whiter than you, evan twice i can say ( because you are slavicised iranians). Evan southern albanian tosks have twice the amount of light eyes you have, you iranian from kazakistan.

There is a Serbian language (Serbo-Croatian if you prefer) and it is much older from 1831:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_language#History


The beginning of written Serbo-Croatian can be traced to the 9th century, when Old Church Slavonic was adopted as the language of the liturgy. This language was gradually adapted to non-liturgical purposes and became known as the Croatian version of Old Slavonic. The two variants of the language, liturgical and non-liturgical, continued to be a part of the Glagolitic service as late as the middle of the 19th century. The earliest known Croatian Church Slavonic Glagolitic manuscripts are the Glagolita Clozianus and the Vienna Folia from the 11th century.[20]

From the 10th century and on Serbo-Croatian medieval texts were written in five scripts: Latin, Glagolitic, Early Cyrillic, Bosnian Cyrillic (bosančica/bosanica),[21] and arebica, the last principally by Bosniak nobility. Serbo-Croatian competed with the more established literary languages of Latin and Old Slavonic in the west and Persian and Arabic in the east. Old Slavonic developed into the Serbo-Croatian variant of Church Slavonic between the 12th and 16th centuries.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Somehow, but the percentage of the haplogroups does not mean bastardisation. EV-13 it might have come from middle east 12,000 ago with mesolithic settlers or evan created in Balkan. It is thought that the dinaric race derives from central anatolia. This gene does not come from northern africa because the berid race ( north african race) is totally absent in balkan and a bit common in italy and iberian penisula. Anthropology explains everything sometimes.

It also worthed to be mentioned that where this haplogroup is found the people are very tall.

Being tall is not necessary related to genetics the way you think. In any case, all south Balkaners are heavily bastardized. A 45% of E1b1b in Kossovo means that the other 55% belongs to other genes. In contrast the Basques are 85% R1b, the Welsh 83,5% R1b, the Catalonians are 82,5% R1b... almost pure.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, this is nonsense, it could never have happened, switching from ancient illyrian to slavic then to Albanian. Why do you think westerners INVENTED the MOUNTAIN THEORY? They invented this MYTH because Shqiptar-Albs have no leg to stand on inside modern Shqiperia! The mountain theory STATES ancient illyrians FLED to the HIGHLANDS of central Albania because barbarian Slavs invaded the lowlands; in isolation, from cilivisation, the Illyrian language morphed INTO Shqiptarisht up in the highlands, and when the time was right, they came down and defeated the barbarian slavs!

CAN YOU FIND ME ANY REFERENCE OF SHQIPTARIAN-ALBS PRIOR TO 11th CENT AD. SLAVS WERE WELL KNOWN TO BYZANTIUM EVEN IN THE 6TH CENT, THEY EVEN FOUND THEMSELVES TO BE EMPERORS/PRIESTS/ADMINISTRATORS and SOLIDERS! SO WHERE ARE THE SO CALLED ANCIENT SIPTARI in BYZANTINE RECORDS PRIOR TO THE LATE 11TH CENT AD!

SLAVS DID NO FLY UNDER THE RAIDER AND MURDERED ALL, THE ROMANS WOULD HAD DOCUMENTED IT!

PS NO MORE SPECULATIVE THEORIES, I WANT HARDCORE EVIDENCE!

The Romans did document the arrival of the Slavs.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/mango.html


Crossing the Adriatic, our traveller may have disembarked at Dyrrachium and followed the Via Egnatia all the way back to Constantinople. The regions he would have to traverse were then about as desolate as Italy. To quote Procopius once again,
"Illyricum and all of Thrace, i.e. the whole country from the Ionian Gulf [the Adriatic to the outskirts of Byzantium, including Greece and the Chersonese, was overrun almost every year by Huns, Slavs and Antae, from the time when Justinian became Roman emperor, and they wrought untold damage among the inhabitants of those parts. For I believe that in each invasion more than two hundred thousand Romans were killed or captured, so that a veritable 'Scythian wilderness' came to exist everywhere in this land."


It would be wearisome to describe here all the ethnographic changes that the Empire witnessed after the sixth century, but we must say a few words about the greatest mutation of all, which started happening a few decades after Justinian's death. Its first sign was the massive installation of the Slavs in the Balkan peninsula. The Slavs came in several waves and, unlike earlier invaders, they came to stay. In an oft-quoted passage John of Amida (also known asJohn of Ephesus) records that in 581
"an accursed people, called Slaonians, overran the whole of Greece, and the country of the Thessalonians, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own.... And even to this day [584 AD], they stili encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn."
Another source, the so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that in the year 587-8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were usually allied) "captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war; and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe, the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the country."

The mountain theory is wrong. The Illyrians didn't morph into Albanians in the mountains. The Albanians moved later from above the Jirecek line.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I would like Siptarians or anybody else to even answer this simple question. Why does Serbian Slavic contain absolutely ZERO ancient illyro-shqip, whilst illyro-shqip has an array of Serbian LOAN words?

Isn't it strange, Turks from central asia when THEY conquered asia minor, not only they ABSORBED the people but even their WORDS/CULTURES and CUISINES, moreso, WE HAVE EVIDENCE of peoples not easily assimilated into the alien Turkish authority for hundreds of years, BUT, when it comes to the SLAVIC regions of the Balkans, its in REVERSE, with many stupid Siptarian theories!

No one has still answered why the invading slavs of the 6th century, SO EASILY, assimilated people WITHOUT A TRACE!

Actually the Slavs of the 6th century left many "traces" behind. The biggest of them being Romania. If Romania is a Romance language, it means that the Romans influences the Balkaners deeply (at least north of the Jirecek line) and this influence is ABSENT upon the Slavic people of the Balkans, because when the Romans ruled the Balkans, the Slavs WERE NOT in the Balkans yet.

[Arbërori]

Being tall is not necessary related to genetics the way you think. In any case, all south Balkaners are heavily bastardized. A 45% of E1b1b in Kossovo means that the other 55% belongs to other genes. In contrast the Basques are 85% R1b, the Welsh 83,5% R1b, the Catalonians are 82,5% R1b... almost pure.

You don't expect a population being 100 % of something right? :coffee:

[Arbërori]

The mountain theory is wrong. The Illyrians didn't morph into Albanians in the mountains. The Albanians moved later from above the Jirecek line.

Do you believe we later on morphed into 'Southern Illyrians' once moving further down?
It's been proposed a few times, by Albanian and foreign historians.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Thracians were not Slavs. :lol:

The Thracians were NOT Slavs in terms of language (though closely related) but the Slavs could easily assimilate the Thracians later when they invaded the Balkans because... They were closely related in linguistic terms.

This is the explanation for those who question how come very little trace of Thracian survives today...

[Petros Houhoulis]

So that makes the culture suddenly alien to the Balkans? :lol:

I said native in the Balkans north of the Jirecek line, not alien to the Balkans.

[Arbërori]

The Thracians were NOT Slavs in terms of language (though closely related) but the Slavs could easily assimilate the Thracians later when they invaded the Balkans because... They were closely related in linguistic terms.

This is the explanation for those who question how come very little trace of Thracian survives today...

We were all more related back then, all European groups. Do you think the Slavs invading were small in numbers? It does show in phenotype.

[Arbërori]

I said native in the Balkans north of the Jirecek line, not alien to the Balkans.

Gotcha. :P

[Petros Houhoulis]

I'm of the idea that ethnogenesis of Albanians is around today Bosnia&Herzegovina, Steven Bird (A renowned geneticist) found the highest variance of E-V13 in Bosnia.

That highest variance of E-V13 would certainly be a very strong clue... If we could tie it specifically to the Albanian speakers. I doubt it though. The E-V13 is probably more native in Kossovo and the South Balkans, than in Bosnia:

E-V13 according to wikipedia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png

[Petros Houhoulis]

You don't expect a population being 100 % of something right? :coffee:

No, but all south Balkaners are less than 50% of any gene, therefore we are all heavily bastardized. The first 50% gene occurs in Bosnia (I2 gene)

[Arbërori]

No, but all south Balkaners are less than 50% of any gene, therefore we are all heavily bastardized. The first 50% gene occurs in Bosnia (I2 gene)

Who would you say are the most homogeneous in the Balkans? I guess Kosovo Albanians, right?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Do you believe we later on morphed into 'Southern Illyrians' once moving further down?
It's been proposed a few times, by Albanian and foreign historians.

You mean that a people moved south and then copied Illyrian words from the survivors there?

Well, there must have been some traces of Illyrian preserved both in your language and is some Slavic languages as well, but those traces do not make either your language or anybody elses' language into Illyrian. The Illyrian has be proved to be distinct from Albanian, but there is always something that stays behind.

[Arbërori]

You mean that a people moved south and then copied Illyrian words from the survivors there?

Well, there must have been some traces of Illyrian preserved both in your language and is some Slavic languages as well, but those traces do not make either your language or anybody elses' language into Illyrian. The Illyrian has be proved to be distinct from Albanian, but there is always something that stays behind.

You're saying Illyrian is distinct from Albanian and then that we don't know enough to know anything or base anything on... Make up your mind.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Who would you say are the most homogeneous in the Balkans? I guess Kosovo Albanians, right?

South Balkans are the Kossovars, as far as I have seen.

You can see the complete list here:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Arbërori]

South Balkans are the Kossovars, as far as I have seen.

You can see the complete list here:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I wouldn't trust Eupedia, most of the tests for Albanians were/are scarce & dubious.

[Petros Houhoulis]

You're saying Illyrian is distinct from Albanian and then that we don't know enough to know anything or base anything on... Make up your mind.

We know very little of Illyrian, barely enough to compare it with Albanian and conclude that they are not the same. To be honest with you, A certain scholar who posts at www.macedonians.com.au/forum with the alias "Dr. Evil" proved it with linguistic terms. I can read them, not dare to copy them because these linguistic formulas are alien to me. We can be certain that Illyrian was heavily influenced by Greek and Latin over time, and we are also certain that Albanian was not influenced much from Greek, and only modestly from Latin. The conclusion is that the Albanians used to live north of the Jirecek line.

[safinator]

That highest variance of E-V13 would certainly be a very strong clue... If we could tie it specifically to the Albanian speakers. I doubt it though. The E-V13 is probably more native in Kossovo and the South Balkans, than in Bosnia:

E-V13 according to wikipedia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png

That's frequency map and isn't even right to begin with.
Variance correlate better with origin.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I wouldn't trust Eupedia, most of the tests for Albanians were/are scarce & dubious.

Well, even in wikipedia the Kossovars are pointed out as 45% E1b1b. I agree with you that the tests are scarce, but I fail to understand why they are dubious.

[Arbërori]

We know very little of Illyrian, barely enough to compare it with Albanian and conclude that they are not the same. To be honest with you, A certain scholar who posts at www.macedonians.com.au/forum with the alias "Dr. Evil" proved it with linguistic terms. I can read them, not dare to copy them because these linguistic formulas are alien to me. We can be certain that Illyrian was heavily influenced by Greek and Latin over time, and we are also certain that Albanian was not influenced much from Greek, and only modestly from Latin. The conclusion is that the Albanians used to live north of the Jirecek line.

I won't go looking at that forum now, it's rather pathetic. :lol:

Still, many surviving Illyrian words have been linked to Albanian ones, which seem to be quite simmilar. Nevertheless, Albanians are the descendants of the people who have been living in their lands for millenia's.
Over time, the Albanian identity was formed. :coffee:

[Arbërori]

Well, even in wikipedia the Kossovars are pointed out as 45% E1b1b. I agree with you that the tests are scarce, but I fail to understand why they are dubious.

No official survey has been done, in Kosovo that is. For all we know, those might just be estimates, so I wouldn't take them that seriously.

[Petros Houhoulis]

That's frequency map and isn't even right to begin with.
Variance correlate better with origin.

Variance does correlate better with origin, but this is where the test cross from "scarce" to "dubious". Did that specific researcher test all populations with E-V13 in order to see which one has the most variances? Or did he make his tests in a limited number of areas? How much more variance did he find in Bosnia? Why do mountainous regions have more homogeneous populations? Bosnia has a strong majority of I2 at 50% and Kossovo has a relative majority of 45%, both being the most homogeneous all over the Balkans. It would appear to me that mountains tend to preserve their genes better than valleys, but we all know that the primitive people were more likely to inhabit valleys (which yield more food) than mountains.

This is not the first time mountains appear to be the home of something. For decades the IndoEuropean family of languages used to be called "Caucasian", and the North Eurasian family of languages is still called "Uralic". Nothing could be further from the truth. People always inhabited valleys before mountains.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I won't go looking at that forum now, it's rather pathetic. :lol:

Still, many surviving Illyrian words have been linked to Albanian ones, which seem to be quite simmilar. Nevertheless, Albanians are the descendants of the people who have been living in their lands for millenia's.
Over time, the Albanian identity was formed. :coffee:

There are not many surviving Illyrian words to begin with. This guy used linguistic laws to prove his point.

It would be impossible to suggest that Illyrian didn't leave a trace behind. The real problem is that we don't know what Illyrian looked like. We can only speculate. The situation with Illyrian is so bad, we don't even know if it was Centum or Satem.

[Petros Houhoulis]

No official survey has been done, in Kosovo that is. For all we know, those might just be estimates, so I wouldn't take them that seriously.

Don't expect government intervention, it's all done privately, and all of these are more or less estimates, but do not expect wild fluctuations from the real numbers. The more tests shall only refine the picture, not alter it dramatically.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Proto-Albanians could have been R1b-carriers assimilating the rest of the haplogroups.

R1b is usually connected with Centum languages. R1a and I2 are a more logical choice for a Satem language like Albanian.

We are speculating wildly here...

[Arbërori]

There are not many surviving Illyrian words to begin with. This guy used linguistic laws to prove his point.

It would be impossible to suggest that Illyrian didn't leave a trace behind. The real problem is that we don't know what Illyrian looked like. We can only speculate. The situation with Illyrian is so bad, we don't even know if it was Centum or Satem.

Theories are thrown back and forth, but the ones surviving do correlate with Albanian. As of the rest, we can only speculate at the moment.


Don't expect government intervention, it's all done privately, and all of these are more or less estimates, but do not expect wild fluctuations from the real numbers. The more tests shall only refine the picture, not alter it dramatically.

Where's the proof that those were actually Albanians or that samples were even taken? Wouldn't it be available to the public or something along the line? Haplogroups are a waste of time anyways.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Theories are thrown back and forth, but the ones surviving do correlate with Albanian. As of the rest, we can only speculate at the moment.



Where's the proof that those were actually Albanians or that samples were even taken? Wouldn't it be available to the public or something along the line? Haplogroups are a waste of time anyways.


Do you really want proof?

Well, read this post:

http://www.macedonians.com.au/forum/showthread.php/13021-Albanian-and-Illyrian-diverge-in-the-treatment-of-sk?p=34624#post34624

Do you want to want to have reliable results? Go and make a research of your own. The results for Albania are not outlandish. The genetic makeup of Albania is slightly different of that of its' neighboring states. I hope you didn't expect some sort of purity, it isn't there...

[Petros Houhoulis]

The urheimat of the Albanian language:

http://www.macedonians.com.au/forum/showthread.php/13021-Albanian-and-Illyrian-diverge-in-the-treatment-of-sk?p=34826#post34826

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7929/exclusion.png

Albanian does not originate south of the Blue line.

[Arbërori]

Do you really want proof?

Well, read this post:

http://www.macedonians.com.au/forum/showthread.php/13021-Albanian-and-Illyrian-diverge-in-the-treatment-of-sk?p=34624#post34624

Do you want to want to have reliable results? Go and make a research of your own. The results for Albania are not outlandish. The genetic makeup of Albania is slightly different of that of its' neighboring states. I hope you didn't expect some sort of purity, it isn't there...

Ah yes, the old 'Albanians are not Illyrian's story, sure thing. 1st of all, Vladimir's work (Oh, a Slav?!) is equal to the work of many which agree on the Illyrian theory. We can't base anything on a few words, but what we can say is that Albanians are native to their lands.


The urheimat of the Albanian language:

Albanian does not originate south of the Blue line.

As of where the language evolved, it's irrelevant. It's the quintessential Paleo-Balkan language.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Ah yes, the old 'Albanians are not Illyrian's story, sure thing. 1st of all, Vladimir's work (Oh, a Slav?!) is equal to the work of many which agree on the Illyrian theory. We can't base anything on a few words, but what we can say is that Albanians are native to their lands.



As of where the language evolved, it's irrelevant. It's the quintessential Paleo-Balkan language.


This is not really "Vladimirs' work". Dr Evil is Greek, and I had a hard time defending his view that hundreds of thousands of Slavs had littered Greece with toponyms after their invasion. At some point he gave up and left because some Greek ultranationalists couldn't accept his view that Ethnic Greek continuity is not uninterrupted from Antiquity, and that we had quite a few centuries when nobody declared himself a Greek in an ethnic sense. I had to pick up the fight on his behalf because being a hillibilly does NOT help at all. He has posted pages upon pages of scholarly opinion on everything Balkan, and - trust me - Dr. Evil cannot be counter argued, because he is a scholar who has not succumbed to nationalism.

Of course Albanian is the quintessential Balkan language. Greek has had many contacts with Asians and even Africans to be "pure Balkan", Romanian is basically a Romance language, The Slavic languages have origins north of the Balkans. The only one remaining with the greatest degree of "Balkan purity" is Albanian. You still have Latin and Turkish loanwords though.

Still Albanian is not a Paleo-Balkan language. "Paleo" means old. Albanian is new nowadays, much like every other Balkan language. Paleo-Albanian was Paleo-Balkan, Albanian is modern.

[Novi Pazar]

Petros, the quotes provided from you by Romans, documenting Slavic arrival, doesn't make sense, WHY, for Slavs to have arrived and settled so densely in all regions of the Balkans, setting up towns, cities etc...in such a relatively SHORT time frame is BS! For historians who support the Nordic/German school contradict themselves by saying Slavs were a small nation living around the marshes of the Baltic, AND THEN, suddenly exploded to occupy HALF OF EUROPE the 6th cent. Its a deceptive way of saying, "Well, Slavs arn't native to eastern and southern europe, their real home is in the far corner of northern europe." You see, slavs just managed to so-call arrive in the Balkans they became well known in Byzantine political life, actually in all aspects of Byzantium!

The quote doesn't properly explain the WARS between the invaders and Natives at all, it just STATES they invaded. More like someone saying they had wars just believe me!

[Arbërori]

This is not really "Vladimirs' work". Dr Evil is Greek, and I had a hard time defending his view that hundreds of thousands of Slavs had littered Greece with toponyms after their invasion. At some point he gave up and left because some Greek ultranationalists couldn't accept his view that Ethnic Greek continuity is not uninterrupted from Antiquity, and that we had quite a few centuries when nobody declared himself a Greek in an ethnic sense. I had to pick up the fight on his behalf because being a hillibilly does NOT help at all. He has posted pages upon pages of scholarly opinion on everything Balkan, and - trust me - Dr. Evil cannot be counter argued, because he is a scholar who has not succumbed to nationalism.

Of course Albanian is the quintessential Balkan language. Greek has had many contacts with Asians and even Africans to be "pure Balkan", Romanian is basically a Romance language, The Slavic languages have origins north of the Balkans. The only one remaining with the greatest degree of "Balkan purity" is Albanian. You still have Latin and Turkish loanwords though.

Still Albanian is not a Paleo-Balkan language. "Paleo" means old. Albanian is new nowadays, much like every other Balkan language. Paleo-Albanian was Paleo-Balkan, Albanian is modern.

Interesting, I must say.

We do, but the Turkish loanwords are negligible. Well indeed! :P

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, the quotes provided from you by Romans, documenting Slavic arrival, doesn't make sense, WHY, for Slavs to have arrived and settled so densely in all regions of the Balkans, setting up towns, cities etc...in such a relatively SHORT time frame is BS! For historians who support the Nordic/German school contradict themselves by saying Slavs were a small nation living around the marshes of the Baltic, AND THEN, suddenly exploded to occupy HALF OF EUROPE the 6th cent. Its a deceptive way of saying, "Well, Slavs arn't native to eastern and southern europe, their real home is in the far corner of northern europe." You see, slavs just managed to so-call arrive in the Balkans they became well known in Byzantine political life, actually in all aspects of Byzantium!

The quote doesn't properly explain the WARS between the invaders and Natives at all, it just STATES they invaded. More like someone saying they had wars just believe me!

You have to realize that the Thracians spoke a language quite close to the Slavic languages, and it was easy for them to assimilate to the Slavic languages. The Slavic population didn't "explode" at all, the use of the Slavic language was turned into lingua franca in a short period of time. This is obvious from the fact that all of the modern Slavic languages are closely related to each other, more closely than the Romance or the Germanic languages. The Romance and Germanic languages have been diverging from each other for a very long period of time. The Slavic languages begun diverging from a common ancestor much later, and they didn't have enough time to become radically different from each other.

The locals depended upon the Roman empire for their defense for centuries. When that defense was lost, they had little knowledge of warfare and used to surrender or flee than fight.

[Scholarios]

This is not really "Vladimirs' work". Dr Evil is Greek, and I had a hard time defending his view that hundreds of thousands of Slavs had littered Greece with toponyms after their invasion. At some point he gave up and left because some Greek ultranationalists couldn't accept his view that Ethnic Greek continuity is not uninterrupted from Antiquity, and that we had quite a few centuries when nobody declared himself a Greek in an ethnic sense. I had to pick up the fight on his behalf because being a hillibilly does NOT help at all. He has posted pages upon pages of scholarly opinion on everything Balkan, and - trust me - Dr. Evil cannot be counter argued, because he is a scholar who has not succumbed to nationalism.

Of course Albanian is the quintessential Balkan language. Greek has had many contacts with Asians and even Africans to be "pure Balkan", Romanian is basically a Romance language, The Slavic languages have origins north of the Balkans. The only one remaining with the greatest degree of "Balkan purity" is Albanian. You still have Latin and Turkish loanwords though.

Still Albanian is not a Paleo-Balkan language. "Paleo" means old. Albanian is new nowadays, much like every other Balkan language. Paleo-Albanian was Paleo-Balkan, Albanian is modern.

I have read Dr. Evil, he is one of the most interesting posters on these kinds of forums. He should do a blog. Petro, you remind me of a less benign version of the Doc. :thumb001:

[Scholarios]

Petro, from your opinion, how close were Thracian and Slavonic languages, using a comparison of modern languages and dialects? It's one of those things you hear from time to time, but don't put much stock into, due its use in the defense of auto-continuity of various Balkan populations.

[wvwvw]

This is not really "Vladimirs' work". Dr Evil is Greek, and I had a hard time defending his view that hundreds of thousands of Slavs had littered Greece with toponyms after their invasion. At some point he gave up and left because some Greek ultranationalists couldn't accept his view that Ethnic Greek continuity is not uninterrupted from Antiquity, and that we had quite a few centuries when nobody declared himself a Greek in an ethnic sense. I had to pick up the fight on his behalf because being a hillibilly does NOT help at all. He has posted pages upon pages of scholarly opinion on everything Balkan, and - trust me - Dr. Evil cannot be counter argued, because he is a scholar who has not succumbed to nationalism.

Of course Albanian is the quintessential Balkan language. Greek has had many contacts with Asians and even Africans to be "pure Balkan", Romanian is basically a Romance language, The Slavic languages have origins north of the Balkans. The only one remaining with the greatest degree of "Balkan purity" is Albanian. You still have Latin and Turkish loanwords though.

Still Albanian is not a Paleo-Balkan language. "Paleo" means old. Albanian is new nowadays, much like every other Balkan language. Paleo-Albanian was Paleo-Balkan, Albanian is modern.

No we were not referring to ourselves as Greek but as Romioi which is essentially the same. Serbs, Bulgarians etc did not refer to themselves as Serbs either (in the ethnic sense) but as citizens of the Byzantine Empire. However every ethnic group did speak their native language and what you say about Greeks goes for Romans and all ethnic groups. Compared to Albanians and other ethnic groups who have not recorded their own history, Greeks show remarkable continuinity. We have been "uninterruptidly" recording our history since antiquity. We know who we are and how we refer to ourselves Romans or Greek it really doesn't matter.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petro, from your opinion, how close were Thracian and Slavonic languages, using a comparison of modern languages and dialects? It's one of those things you hear from time to time, but don't put much stock into, due its use in the defense of auto-continuity of various Balkan populations.

Well, I am not a linguist, and the linguists cannot say much either because not much of Thracian has survived. It was a Satem language and a very probable predecessor of both Slavic and Baltic, although the Baltics seem to be just a bit closer to Thracian than Slavic.

It is without doubt that the differences between Thracian and both Slavic and Baltic are bigger than the differences between Ancient and modern Greek, because the use of writing allowed a better preservation and frequent attempts of regeneration of older and purer forms of the language. Slavs and Balts could not preserve their language and heritage so efficiently while they lacked writing. Dr. Evil proposed that too...

[Petros Houhoulis]

No we were not referring to ourselves as Greek but as Romioi which is essentially the same. Serbs, Bulgarians etc did not refer to themselves as Serbs either (in the ethnic sense) but as citizens of the Byzantine Empire. However every ethnic group did speak their native language and what you say about Greeks goes for Romans and all ethnic groups. Compared to Albanians and other ethnic groups who have not recorded their own history, Greeks show remarkable continuinity. We have been "uninterruptidly" recording our history since antiquity. We know who we are and how we refer to ourselves Romans or Greek it really doesn't matter.

I think that the "Don't mess with me, I'm old bones" implies that my bones are older than the others' bones. No need to elaborate further.

[Crn Volk]

I think that the "Don't mess with me, I'm old bones" implies that my bones are older than the others' bones. No need to elaborate further.

What about the 'bastard' part?

[Petros Houhoulis]

What about the 'bastard' part?

The "bastard" part is flesh.

[Skerdilaid]

I have read Dr. Evil, he is one of the most interesting posters on these kinds of forums. He should do a blog. Petro, you remind me of a less benign version of the Doc. :thumb001:


He seems like an intelegent fellow but some of his claims are quite outlandish. Why should anyone take him seriously? After all he is just an internet scholar with an agenda behind his claims. He seems to be going agains most of the known and well respected Albanologists. If you really want to read some serious stuff I suggest you the likes of Milan Sufflay, Henrik Baric, Cabej and dozen other serious scholars who have studied Albanian language in depth.

[Scholarios]

Of course it's just the Internet- but Petro also bashes some Greek national myth.. So I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

By the way, thanks for the reading recommendations. I'll they to order them through my library when semester is finished.

[epirot]

This is not really "Vladimirs' work". Dr Evil is Greek, and I had a hard time defending his view that hundreds of thousands of Slavs had littered Greece with toponyms after their invasion. At some point he gave up and left because some Greek ultranationalists couldn't accept his view that Ethnic Greek continuity is not uninterrupted from Antiquity, and that we had quite a few centuries when nobody declared himself a Greek in an ethnic sense. I had to pick up the fight on his behalf because being a hillibilly does NOT help at all. He has posted pages upon pages of scholarly opinion on everything Balkan, and - trust me - Dr. Evil cannot be counter argued, because he is a scholar who has not succumbed to nationalism.

Of course Albanian is the quintessential Balkan language. Greek has had many contacts with Asians and even Africans to be "pure Balkan", Romanian is basically a Romance language, The Slavic languages have origins north of the Balkans. The only one remaining with the greatest degree of "Balkan purity" is Albanian. You still have Latin and Turkish loanwords though.

Still Albanian is not a Paleo-Balkan language. "Paleo" means old. Albanian is new nowadays, much like every other Balkan language. Paleo-Albanian was Paleo-Balkan, Albanian is modern.

Hmmm it seems we have 4 true Greeks now : Me, Petros, Scholarios, and Dr Evil.

pls tell me more about Dr Evil, if he still survives the neo-greek mob.

[wvwvw]

No we were not referring to ourselves as Greek but as Romioi which is essentially the same. Serbs, Bulgarians etc did not refer to themselves as Serbs either (in the ethnic sense) but as citizens of the Byzantine Empire. However every ethnic group did speak their native language and what you say about Greeks goes for Romans and all ethnic groups. Compared to Albanians and other ethnic groups who have not recorded their own history, Greeks show remarkable continuinity. We have been "uninterruptidly" recording our history since antiquity. We know who we are and how we refer to ourselves Romans or Greek it really doesn't matter.

this

[Novi Pazar]

You have to realize that the Thracians spoke a language quite close to the Slavic languages, and it was easy for them to assimilate to the Slavic languages. The Slavic population didn't "explode" at all, the use of the Slavic language was turned into lingua franca in a short period of time. This is obvious from the fact that all of the modern Slavic languages are closely related to each other, more closely than the Romance or the Germanic languages. The Romance and Germanic languages have been diverging from each other for a very long period of time. The Slavic languages begun diverging from a common ancestor much later, and they didn't have enough time to become radically different from each other.

The locals depended upon the Roman empire for their defense for centuries. When that defense was lost, they had little knowledge of warfare and used to surrender or flee than fight.

Not a bad post and you might be right! I'm not sure whether Slavic was made the lingua franca of the time, l could also say the Slavs weren't severed from North to South, hence why there was unity and lack of differentiation. Petros, my friend, isn't it strange that Byzantines classified SERBS as a Triballian tribe, then we have names pertaining to Serbs or related to them, i.e, Serbonis (Egypt), Serbinium (Roman held Bosnia), Sirbis in Western Turkey or even Serbis in Iraq. What is even more strange there are the Serbian type toponyms inside Baltic spoken regions: Serben or Serbigal. In many Slavic nations of Eastern Europe and of the South too, DIRECT names that link to Serbs. It leads me to this quote from Nestor from Kiev:

"The ancestors of the Slavs came from the Danube Basin into the land of Novgorod."
The Holy Nestor of Kiev
10 century A.D

Then this:

"The Serbs are such a large nation that all Slavs came from them"

Bavarian geographer Jordanes.
Gothic Chronicles
6th Century A.D

[Novi Pazar]

"Writers of the classical period took down toponyms and ethnonyms which certainly had Slav roots, like for example the names of tribes -Corali (Highlanders), Dolonci (Lowlanders), Moriseni (inhabitants of coastal regions); the names of towns – Bilazora, Deberus, Serdica; the name of the river Strymon etc.

Roman historian Titus Livius testifies to the fact that Thracians like Serbs had in medieval Balkan areas heads of tribal states and parliaments. If we place trust in Theophilactes, the 7th century writer, who explicitly called the Thracian tribe Getae the Slavs (Getae, seu quod item est, Sclavini), we can reasonably accept that Thracians were the Slavs. Later Byzantine writers wrote down many Slav names of that kind and called the country ranging from the Balkans to the Aegean See Sclavinia. The toponyms of ancient Thrace and Macedonia, as wellas the biography of St. Demetrius are particularly convincing in that regard."

The corali and Dolonci are two Thracian tribes!

[Novi Pazar]

What makes it alittle more difficult in studying these tribal names is the Latinization of them when they recorded them down on paper, for instance, the Slavic tribe of Drugovichi, recorded by Romans as Drugouviti because they couldn't pronounce it in a Slavic manner. It leads me to say the Thracian tribe of Drugeri and the Old Slav tribe Drugoviti could be ONE!

Another Example with Ardiaei (Vardaei); Serbian surname Varda, village Varda in central Serbia; related to Dardani, Serbian Tvrdani; Serbian varda is a apheresis of ut-vrda (fortress; t/vrđava) and varda has the same meaning in Serbian as tvrđava (fortress).

OR

Dardani; the Serbo-Slavic tribe\'s family and personal names Turudići, Tvrdići, Turudija, Darodan, Tvrdani (interesting in the Bible Darda is "a wise man" and in Serbo-Slavic Darodan is "a gifted man")

Lets see what the Illyro-Shqips reply to the Dardani LMAO

[epirot]

Dolonci (Lowlanders), Moriseni (inhabitants of coastal regions); the names of towns – Bilazora, Deberus, Serdica; the name of the river Strymon etc.


Ultra interesting. Dolonci and Moriseni strike as Slavic from miles away...
Also how about the north african toponyms? Zagora? Berza? (among others) not even Arabs can explain their etymology.

And maybe, the ancient source for Slavs *were* the balkans..

Judging from Serbian, how strongly pure and rich it is, on par with Czech, Polish, etc... is a sign, that there was a deep Slavic presence in the balkans... smth much bigger than a Slavification some ppl like to portray out of their agony to pursue their agenda of undermining the Slavs..

well done Novi!!

[Novi Pazar]

^ Epirot, how about the names Dinara, Dinar etc....We find some of these names in the Arab regions. We know linking Shqiptars with the ancient Illyrians was a Nordic school concoction, a couple of hundreds of years ago, pretty much at that time, the Austro-Hungarians were having a tough time quelling the Illyrian movements amongst Croats and Slovenes, their subjects in the Empire. People were Jailed for expressing their beliefs, whilst they promoted Shqiptars to be Illyrians, prior to it, they didn't have a clue who these people were!

Kind of like quelling Serbian nationalism whilst promoting OTHERS nationalism in the destruction of the Southern Slavic Nation (Yugoslavia)!

[safinator]

^ Epirot, how about the names Dinara, Dinar etc....We find some of these names in the Arab regions.

Ever heard of Omonimia?
There's a Galicia in Spain and one in Ukraine and there are countless of other examples.

[Novi Pazar]

^ Heard of Celts? or ancient Shqiptars up in the Mountains?

[Petros Houhoulis]

He seems like an intelegent fellow but some of his claims are quite outlandish. Why should anyone take him seriously? After all he is just an internet scholar with an agenda behind his claims. He seems to be going agains most of the known and well respected Albanologists. If you really want to read some serious stuff I suggest you the likes of Milan Sufflay, Henrik Baric, Cabej and dozen other serious scholars who have studied Albanian language in depth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Linguistic_affinities


Albanian is considered to have evolved from an extinct Paleo-Balkan language, usually taken to be either Illyrian or Thracian, but the relation to modern Albanian is disputed. See also Thraco-Illyrian and Messapian language.

The most important problem is that we don't have much evidence of the Illyrian language. Nevertheless, the contact with Greek was minimal, and that proves that Albanian had its' origins north of the Jirecek line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Linguistic_influences


The earliest loanwords attested in Albanian are from Doric Greek (probably indirect)[9] while the heaviest influence was that of Latin. The period during which Proto-Albanian and Latin interacted was protracted and drawn out roughly from 2nd century BC to 5th century AD.[10] This is borne out into roughly three layers of borrowings, the largest number belonging to the second layer. The first, with the fewest borrowings, was a time of less important interaction. The final period, probably preceding the Slavic or Germanic invasions, also has a notably smaller number of borrowings. Each layer is characterized by a different treatment of most vowels, the first layer having several that follow the evolution of Early Proto-Albanian into Albanian; later layers reflect vowel changes endemic to Late Latin and presumably Proto-Romance. Other formative changes include the syncretism of several noun case endings, especially in the plural, as well as a large scale palatalization.

A brief period followed, between 7th c. AD and 9th c. AD, that was marked by heavy borrowings from Southern Slavic, some of which predate the "o-a" shift common to the modern forms of this language group. Starting in the latter 9th c. AD, there was a period characterized by protracted contact with the Proto-Romanians, or Vlachs, though lexical borrowing seems to have been mostly one sided—from Albanian into Romanian. Such borrowing indicates that the Romanians migrated from an area where the majority was Slavic (i.e. Middle Bulgarian) to an area with a majority of Albanian speakers, i.e. Dardania, where Vlachs are recorded in the 10th c. AD. Their movement is probably related to the expansion of the Bulgarian empire into Albania around that time. This fact places the Albanians in the western or central Balkans at a rather early date.

According to the central hypothesis of a project undertaken by the Austrian Science Fund FWF, Old Albanian had a significant influence on the development of many Balkan languages. Intensive research now aims to confirm this theory. Albanian is being researched using all available texts before a comparison with other Balkan languages is carried out. The outcome of this work will include the compilation of a lexicon providing an overview of all Old Albanian verbs.[11]

[Petros Houhoulis]

^ Heard of Celts? or ancient Shqiptars up in the Mountains?

Galicia is not related to the Celts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Eastern_Europe%29


Galicia or Halizia (Ukrainian: Галичина, Halychyna, Polish: Galicja, Romanian: Galiția/Halici, German: Galizien; Russian: Галиция/Галичина, Czech: Halič, Slovak: Halič, Yiddish: גאליציע, Hungarian: Galícia/Kaliz/Gácsország/Halics) is a historical region in Central Europe that currently straddles the border between Poland and Ukraine. The area, which is named after the medieval city of Halych...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hmmm it seems we have 4 true Greeks now : Me, Petros, Scholarios, and Dr Evil.

pls tell me more about Dr Evil, if he still survives the neo-greek mob.

He attends from time to time. A few civilized Greeks are trying to keep him from attacks by ultranationalist Greeks. It is quite an achievement for a Balkan people.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Not a bad post and you might be right! I'm not sure whether Slavic was made the lingua franca of the time, l could also say the Slavs weren't severed from North to South, hence why there was unity and lack of differentiation. Petros, my friend, isn't it strange that Byzantines classified SERBS as a Triballian tribe, then we have names pertaining to Serbs or related to them, i.e, Serbonis (Egypt), Serbinium (Roman held Bosnia), Sirbis in Western Turkey or even Serbis in Iraq. What is even more strange there are the Serbian type toponyms inside Baltic spoken regions: Serben or Serbigal. In many Slavic nations of Eastern Europe and of the South too, DIRECT names that link to Serbs. It leads me to this quote from Nestor from Kiev:

"The ancestors of the Slavs came from the Danube Basin into the land of Novgorod."
The Holy Nestor of Kiev
10 century A.D

Then this:

"The Serbs are such a large nation that all Slavs came from them"

Bavarian geographer Jordanes.
Gothic Chronicles
6th Century A.D

Well, let's put it into this perspective:

The Thracians were the ancestors of all the Slavs and Balts. At some point in history the Slavs and the Balts begun breaking away, and the Slavs who redefine their language after a long period of dwelling into lowlands, they are agitated by the Avars and turn south resulting to the assimilation of the remaining Thracians onto them.

The Triballians could have been Thracians, but not Slavs, for the simple reason that the Slavs had no words for hills or mountains. This does not mean that several words could not be common between Thracian and Slavic, just as there are common words in all Indo-European languages, but those were even closer for related languages like Slavic and Thracian.

[Novi Pazar]

Galicia is not related to the Celts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Eastern_Europe%29

Petros, l'm just toying with these galactic illyro-shqiptars with the fantasies they are good at inventing, Hollywood like.

[Novi Pazar]

Well, let's put it into this perspective:

The Thracians were the ancestors of all the Slavs and Balts. At some point in history the Slavs and the Balts begun breaking away, and the Slavs who redefine their language after a long period of dwelling into lowlands, they are agitated by the Avars and turn south resulting to the assimilation of the remaining Thracians onto them.

The Triballians could have been Thracians, but not Slavs, for the simple reason that the Slavs had no words for hills or mountains. This does not mean that several words could not be common between Thracian and Slavic, just as there are common words in all Indo-European languages, but those were even closer for related languages like Slavic and Thracian.

Petros, brother, the first paragraph is plausible, you may in-fact be correct! However, to believe Slavs had no WORDS for mountains nor hills is incorrect.

Again, let me bring forth this quote:

"Roman historian Titus Livius testifies to the fact that Thracians like Serbs had in medieval Balkan areas heads of tribal states and parliaments. If we place trust in Theophilactes, the 7th century writer, who explicitly called the Thracian tribe Getae the Slavs (Getae, seu quod item est, Sclavini), we can reasonably accept that Thracians were the Slavs. Later Byzantine writers wrote down many Slav names of that kind and called the country ranging from the Balkans to the Aegean See Sclavinia. The toponyms of ancient Thrace and Macedonia, as wellas the biography of St. Demetrius are particularly convincing in that regard. "

[epirot]

Planina, Breg (Brijeg, Bryag), Gora, among numerous other words for "mountain". Slavs of course named mountains as well as other natural elements : example in modern Greece Epiros : SMOLIKAS - OLYTSIKA (from smolik, and from ulica respectively).

[epirot]

He attends from time to time. A few civilized Greeks are trying to keep him from attacks by ultranationalist Greeks. It is quite an achievement for a Balkan people.

What the foreigners did to Greece was a satanic play : Strike on true greeks with great fury. Then take a bunch of Albanians and rename them to Greeks and feed them fake nationalism for ages. The result? The original product not only is dead but has no chances to survive since there is another product with the same name!! So we have complete albanians today (like Dandelion, Linet, etc...) whose whole mentality resembles so much the one of albanians, who have nothing pure nor clear in their souls, who have never worked to design smth, to make smth from scratch, to laugh and enjoy about somth to celebrate about smth, to achieve somth on their own, to be proud of smth they made, without leaking big powers butts 24x7..... <---- this is the greek nationalist who was bred by the big powers for ages, thus shutting down the TRUE GREEKS....

So, those self-proclaimed "ultra-nationalist" greeks are the worse albanians deep inside, and a great foe to the survival of Hellenism.

Long live hellenism!! long live CRETE-CYPRUS-PONTOS and our brothers the SLAVS.

As long as the west (via albanians) rule Greece, Greeks will not be able to design or manufacture the simplest device or system.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, brother, the first paragraph is plausible, you may in-fact be correct! However, to believe Slavs had no WORDS for mountains nor hills is incorrect.

Again, let me bring forth this quote:

"Roman historian Titus Livius testifies to the fact that Thracians like Serbs had in medieval Balkan areas heads of tribal states and parliaments. If we place trust in Theophilactes, the 7th century writer, who explicitly called the Thracian tribe Getae the Slavs (Getae, seu quod item est, Sclavini), we can reasonably accept that Thracians were the Slavs. Later Byzantine writers wrote down many Slav names of that kind and called the country ranging from the Balkans to the Aegean See Sclavinia. The toponyms of ancient Thrace and Macedonia, as wellas the biography of St. Demetrius are particularly convincing in that regard. "

O.K., I might have exaggerated a bit with the hills...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Slavic_languages#Pre-Slavic


A pre-Slavic period began c. 1500 to 1000 BCE, whereby certain phonological changes and linguistic contacts did not disperse evenly through all Balto-Slavic dialects. The development into Proto-Slavic probably occurred along the southern periphery of the Proto-Balto-Slavic continuum. The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are found here, along the middle Dnieper, Pripet and upper Dniester rivers. This agrees well with the fact that inherited Common Slavic vocabulary does not include detailed terminology for physical surface features peculiar of the mountains or the steppe, nor any relating to the sea, to coastal features, littoral flora or fauna, or salt water fishes. On the other hand, it does include well-developed terminology for inland bodies of water (lakes, river, swamps) and kinds of forest (deciduous and coniferous), for the trees, plants, animals and birds indigenous to the temperate forest zone, and for the fish native to its waters.[7] Indeed, Trubachev argues that this location fostered contacts between speakers of Pre-Proto-Slavic with the cultural innovations which emanated from central Europe and the steppe.[8] Although language groups cannot be straightforwardly equated with archaeological cultures, the emergence of a Pre-Proto-Slavic linguistic community corresponds temporally and geographically with the Komarov and Chernoles cultures (Novotna, Blazek). Both linguists and archaeologists therefore often locate the Slavic Urheimat specifically within this area.

[Novi Pazar]

^ I cannot really answer this, only to say some speculate THAT Slavs were the people who DELIVERED Indo-European speech into Europe and also the gene marker R1a.

[epirot]

Considering Serbs and Poles still understand each other, even geographically divided for more than 2000 years, attests that the development of Slavic must be much much older than that.
Slavic being in the center of the star-shaped relation-schema of european languages points to the theory that it is the oldest of all.
Also, common structure between Slav and (ancient) Greek denotes a very robust common branch, which must be very very older than 2000 BC to justify the differences developed by 400-500 AD.

[Novi Pazar]

Considering Serbs and Poles still understand each other, even geographically divided for more than 2000 years, attests that the development of Slavic must be much much older than that.
Slavic being in the center of the star-shaped relation-schema of european languages points to the theory that it is the oldest of all.
Also, common structure between Slav and (ancient) Greek denotes a very robust common branch, which must be very very older than 2000 BC to justify the differences developed by 400-500 AD.

Brate, l was pondering Petros' quote for a moment because it mentions that Slavic lacked numerous descriptive maritime, mountainous or the steppe! It came to my mind about our INDO-EUROPEAN ANCESTORS? Theory has it our Indo-European Ancestors were FAR from SEA, and they too must have LACKED varieties of words to describe seafearing etc...

Food for thought:

In Serbian Slavic the word Sea is MORE, in Baltic its MARES, LATIN its MARE, GOTHIC its MAREI and Old IRISH its MUIR, whilst the original Indo-European its MORI. Apparently proto-indo european LACKED maritime terminology ALSO, MORI in Old Indo-European meant LAKE, not sea because where they originated from was in-land and far from sea. When they encountered sea they changed the meaning of MORI to represent SEA, OR, they borrowed words from CONQUERED & MIXED PEOPLES, i.e, Greek 'Thalassa'

Hence the old THRACIAN tribal name Moriseni (most likely warped due to latinization)

PS Could it be the descendants of Slavs/Balts WHO spread indo-european lang INTO Europe? Linguists consider BOTH Slavic and Baltic to be archaic indo-european langauges!

[Novi Pazar]

^ are you normal? Need meds? I think there should be a rule to BAN all Shqiptars from participating and debating on-line. I'm having a nice thought out convo with sane forum members, then a Shqiptar appears and ruins the flow of the discussion!

Geez, l wish l had moderating powers, your stupidities would have been deleted!

[epirot]

Also Novi bro, it could have been this way. I take for example the name Thalasa. Why isn't it close to More? Maybe old indo-europeans used to have more than one name, like e.g. Serbs and Bulgars have for e.g. big (Golem vs Veliki, or Hladan vs Studen), both people now know both meanings but in the future they might be completely separated : Serbs know only Veliki/Hladan, Bulgarians know only Golem/Studen.
hmmm... which brings the concept of SEPARATION..... hmmmm...

there must have been a MYTHICAL war some 10,000 years ago that made Slavs-Proto-europeans to evolve into Slavs/Greeks/Latins/Germanics/Celts.... Still the common denominator, the fathers of them all, are the mighty Slavs.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Brate, l was pondering Petros' quote for a moment because it mentions that Slavic lacked numerous descriptive maritime, mountainous or the steppe! It came to my mind about our INDO-EUROPEAN ANCESTORS? Theory has it our Indo-European Ancestors were FAR from SEA, and they too must have LACKED varieties of words to describe seafearing etc...

Food for thought:

In Serbian Slavic the word Sea is MORE, in Baltic its MARES, LATIN its MARE, GOTHIC its MAREI and Old IRISH its MUIR, whilst the original Indo-European its MORI. Apparently proto-indo european LACKED maritime terminology ALSO, MORI in Old Indo-European meant LAKE, not sea because where they originated from was in-land and far from sea. When they encountered sea they changed the meaning of MORI to represent SEA, OR, they borrowed words from CONQUERED & MIXED PEOPLES, i.e, Greek 'Thalassa'

Hence the old THRACIAN tribal name Moriseni (most likely warped due to latinization)

PS Could it be the descendants of Slavs/Balts WHO spread indo-european lang INTO Europe? Linguists consider BOTH Slavic and Baltic to be archaic indo-european langauges!

Not convincing. If the PIE meaning for lake was M*r*, then at least one Indoeuropean language would still use the word for lake. None of them does.

PIE is so old, we cannot figure out where it started. One thing is for sure, of the two theories at hand, the one suggests that Centum languages are older than Satem, and the other that they are of the same age. The real question though is the relation of the Anatolian languages which are neither Centum nor Satem, and probably the oldest of them all...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Considering Serbs and Poles still understand each other, even geographically divided for more than 2000 years, attests that the development of Slavic must be much much older than that.
Slavic being in the center of the star-shaped relation-schema of european languages points to the theory that it is the oldest of all.
Also, common structure between Slav and (ancient) Greek denotes a very robust common branch, which must be very very older than 2000 BC to justify the differences developed by 400-500 AD.

Actually, the fact that Poles and Serbs understand each other attests that the Slavic is the newest, not the oldest language. As time goes by languages tend to grow different, not to get closer to each other.

[epirot]

Actually, the fact that Poles and Serbs understand each other attests that the Slavic is the newest, not the oldest language. As time goes by languages tend to grow different, not to get closer to each other.
No. You base your proposition on a wrong assumption : the given high rate of change and deviation. The fact that a language does not deviate from another is no sign of young age, but a sign of a very solid backbone. As a matter of fact the rate (if any) that the slavic tangs deviate from one another is very small, is a factor that leads to the conclusion that they are very old. The problem is mathematic, and i will formulate it some time. Think of it like the "stalaktites"-"stalagmites" in caves. Imagine that the slightest relative deviation e.g. between Serb and Bulgarian takes 500s of years to happen. One can then speculate about the 10,000 of years of the slavic lineage. And one can only ADMIRE with great excitement how those tangs are STILL inter-intelligible.

Also, in the star-shaped relation-schema of all tangs, SLAVIC seem to seat right there in the middle, showing equal distances from Greek-Latin-Germanic, which is another sign that it is the oldest of all european languages.

There are enough books (not still available, NWO does not like such stuff) about this matter. Another taboo is the striking similarities between greek and slavic (pre-christian era) that no ones dares to point out anymore.

[Queen B]

What the foreigners did to Greece was a satanic play : Strike on true greeks with great fury. Then take a bunch of Albanians and rename them to Greeks and feed them fake nationalism for ages. The result? The original product not only is dead but has no chances to survive since there is another product with the same name!! So we have complete albanians today (like Dandelion, Linet, etc...) whose whole mentality resembles so much the one of albanians, who have nothing pure nor clear in their souls, who have never worked to design smth, to make smth from scratch, to laugh and enjoy about somth to celebrate about smth, to achieve somth on their own, to be proud of smth they made, without leaking big powers butts 24x7..... <---- this is the greek nationalist who was bred by the big powers for ages, thus shutting down the TRUE GREEKS....

So, those self-proclaimed "ultra-nationalist" greeks are the worse albanians deep inside, and a great foe to the survival of Hellenism.

Long live hellenism!! long live CRETE-CYPRUS-PONTOS and our brothers the SLAVS.

As long as the west (via albanians) rule Greece, Greeks will not be able to design or manufacture the simplest device or system.
Ηey Slavovlahe, talk about your mixed ancestry before getting my name into your stupid theories.
Unlike you , I m indeed Greek. Real one, not a mix with Slavs and Vlachs, that wants to be Greek.

You might have some problems with your identity, but don't drag others to your inferiority complexes.

[epirot]

Ηey Slavovlahe, talk about your mixed ancestry before getting my name into your stupid theories.
Unlike you , I m indeed Greek. Real one, not a mix with Slavs and Vlachs, that wants to be Greek.

You might have some problems with your identity, but don't drag others to your inferiority complexes.

even if you try harder it is unlikely that you'll gain any more attention.

[Queen B]

even if you try harder it is unlikely that you'll gain any more attention.
I have no need to gain attention :rolleyes:

[Petros Houhoulis]

No. You base your proposition on a wrong assumption : the given high rate of change and deviation. The fact that a language does not deviate from another is no sign of young age, but a sign of a very solid backbone. As a matter of fact the rate (if any) that the slavic tangs deviate from one another is very small, is a factor that leads to the conclusion that they are very old. The problem is mathematic, and i will formulate it some time. Think of it like the "stalaktites"-"stalagmites" in caves. Imagine that the slightest relative deviation e.g. between Serb and Bulgarian takes 500s of years to happen. One can then speculate about the 10,000 of years of the slavic lineage. And one can only ADMIRE with great excitement how those tangs are STILL inter-intelligible.

Also, in the star-shaped relation-schema of all tangs, SLAVIC seem to seat right there in the middle, showing equal distances from Greek-Latin-Germanic, which is another sign that it is the oldest of all european languages.

There are enough books (not still available, NWO does not like such stuff) about this matter. Another taboo is the striking similarities between greek and slavic (pre-christian era) that no ones dares to point out anymore.

Actually the only thing that slows down a rate of change is literacy. The Ancient Slavs had none of it. The "solid backbone" theory is a joke of yours, no doubt.

Slavic is in the middle of most Indoeuropean languages because the Slavs are located geographically in the middle of all the IndoEuropeans. There is no magic there.

The only similarities between Greek and "Slavic" in the pre-Christian era are owed to the fact that Greek was a bit close to Thracian - but not much. You are neither the first nor the last one to confuse these two...

[Skerdilaid]

No. You base your proposition on a wrong assumption : the given high rate of change and deviation. The fact that a language does not deviate from another is no sign of young age, but a sign of a very solid backbone. As a matter of fact the rate (if any) that the slavic tangs deviate from one another is very small, is a factor that leads to the conclusion that they are very old. The problem is mathematic, and i will formulate it some time. Think of it like the "stalaktites"-"stalagmites" in caves. Imagine that the slightest relative deviation e.g. between Serb and Bulgarian takes 500s of years to happen. One can then speculate about the 10,000 of years of the slavic lineage. And one can only ADMIRE with great excitement how those tangs are STILL inter-intelligible.

Also, in the star-shaped relation-schema of all tangs, SLAVIC seem to seat right there in the middle, showing equal distances from Greek-Latin-Germanic, which is another sign that it is the oldest of all european languages.

There are enough books (not still available, NWO does not like such stuff) about this matter. Another taboo is the striking similarities between greek and slavic (pre-christian era) that no ones dares to point out anymore.


There is no older or newer languages. All indoeuropean languages are old and they all split from the mother branch PEI. You can't calculate languages the way you do math, languages evolve. The very fact that Slavic tangs are intelligible indicates a recent split.

[epirot]

Actually the only thing that slows down a rate of change is literacy. The Ancient Slavs had none of it. The "solid backbone" theory is a joke of yours, no doubt.

Slavic is in the middle of most Indoeuropean languages because the Slavs are located geographically in the middle of all the IndoEuropeans. There is no magic there.

The only similarities between Greek and "Slavic" in the pre-Christian era are owed to the fact that Greek was a bit close to Thracian - but not much. You are neither the first nor the last one to confuse these two...

LOL, i had the impression that STRONG designs/structures in nation PERSIST while weak ones constantly seek ways to change so as to survive? Look at successful designs of engineering. The well engineered ones persist and do not change at a high rate. Slavic language changed not much, because it was a natural product and not an artificial enforcement. It was bound with life in nature. It was poetic (and still is). It was very rich in terms of natural life. Therefore it had the strengths to persist.

I would easily destroy the first sentence in many ways, but lets try a simple one here: 1st, you seem to be another zealot of the theory that two wrongs make a right : you say that literacy slows down change, which is ofcourse false, greeks tend to lose their tang because of many "literal" ppl speaking english, so it depends on which side of the fence you are, and then go on to claim the next claptrap saying slavs had no literacy. Arbitrary idiocy.
So to use your pathetic argument, the fact that Serbs and Poles still understand each other after being separate for more than 2000 years, in contrast to e.g. hellenistic greek VS modern greek or even kathareuousa vs modern greek, should we conclude that modern greeks are far less literate than Serbs/Poles? your idiodic argumentation seem to point to that direction.

I will not comment the other dungeon here about slavs being located in the middle of the indoeuropeans, let me ask you, who lives on the eastern side of them? Slavs clearly live in the border of europe, neighboring asians on one hand, and germanics on the other. So pre-christian similarities with Latin and Greek cannot be explained with such arbitrary silly simplifications. Take numbers from 1-20 compare the relative distances between all major indo-european tangs and you'll see the light.

There are only a few elements known of Thracian language, its equally idiotic to use such weak assumptions to explain such strong actuality.

[Novi Pazar]

Actually, the fact that Poles and Serbs understand each other attests that the Slavic is the newest, not the oldest language. As time goes by languages tend to grow different, not to get closer to each other.

Well, l could argue Petros, that Slavic was ONE language mass from North to South which was severed by Huns and Romans (Hungary and Romania). Both Hungarians and Romanians are heavily influenced by Slavic!

[Skerdilaid]

Well, l could argue Petros, that Slavic was ONE language mass from North to South which was severed by Huns and Romans (Hungary and Romania). Both Hungarians and Romanians are heavily influenced by Slavic!

Romanian a Romance Language wedged the Slavs:bored:

It is the other way around, Slavs wedged the PaleoBalkans.

[Novi Pazar]

It is the other way around, Slavs wedged the PaleoBalkans.

Geographically, this never happened!

In Shqiperia, the region is littered with EVERYTHING Slavic, but the Slavs invaded and the Shqiptars were always there, hidden and under the raider! The ancient Shqiptars borrowed cultures/words/cusines from the barbarian Slavs, but the barbarian Slavs have ZERO anything in life that resembles Shqiptarians!

Yes, Shqiptars wedged the PaleoBalkans, THE SLAVS!

[Skerdilaid]

It is the other way around, Slavs wedged the PaleoBalkans.

Geographically, this never happened!

In Shqiperia, the region is littered with EVERYTHING Slavic, but the Slavs invaded and the Shqiptars were always there, hidden and under the raider! The ancient Shqiptars borrowed cultures/words/cusines from the barbarian Slavs, but the barbarian Slavs have ZERO anything in life that resembles Shqiptarians!

Yes, Shqiptars wedged the PaleoBalkans, THE SLAVS!

I know, for a guy like you it's hard to get it, but you lack the Latin element to have been in Balkans prior 600 AD. Your stories are well thought out but are not reality:thumb001:

[Novi Pazar]

^ So Vlachs were latinized Albanians who later Albanians assimilated and borrowed their words etc....Yes, makes absolute sense! I'll take the 6th century argument, for you, because its just a Nordic School concoction, but its 'mainstream' then it must be 100% right, HA! I want to ASK you why there is ZERO references to Albanians prior to Attiliates source (1081AD), c'mon the ancient Albanians must have been present in Byzantine LIFE during the 5 or 6th centuries before the barbarian slavs ruined everything! I don't want to see some speculative arguments or hearsay from writers who have written some fabricated stories or myths about ancient illyro-albanians during the 19th century! There must be some REAL EVIDENCE!

[Skerdilaid]

^ So Vlachs were latinized Albanians who later Albanians assimilated and borrowed their words etc....Yes, makes absolute sense! I'll take the 6th century argument, for you, because its just a Nordic School concoction, but its 'mainstream' then it must be 100% right, HA! I want to ASK you why there is ZERO references to Albanians prior to Attiliates source (1081AD), c'mon the ancient Albanians must have been present in Byzantine LIFE during the 5 or 6th centuries before the barbarian slavs ruined everything! I don't want to see some speculative arguments or hearsay from writers who have written some fabricated stories or myths about ancient illyro-albanians during the 19th century! There must be some REAL EVIDENCE!


Wrong, Linguists state that Vllahs and Romanians borrowed from Albanians. Byzantines had no reason to mention Albanians as we were part of the Roman Empire since 200 BC, and also were an important part of their army. Now back to Vllahs, the only Balkan input that Serbians have is due to assimilating the Vllahs, this goes for Hercegovina, Montenegro, Rashka.

Albanians started raising their head only when the Byzantines failed to protect its citizens. Slavs had conquered quite a bit of Albanian territory, so this is when they took matters on their own hands.

[Petros Houhoulis]

LOL, i had the impression that STRONG designs/structures in nation PERSIST while weak ones constantly seek ways to change so as to survive? Look at successful designs of engineering. The well engineered ones persist and do not change at a high rate. Slavic language changed not much, because it was a natural product and not an artificial enforcement. It was bound with life in nature. It was poetic (and still is). It was very rich in terms of natural life. Therefore it had the strengths to persist.

I would easily destroy the first sentence in many ways, but lets try a simple one here: 1st, you seem to be another zealot of the theory that two wrongs make a right : you say that literacy slows down change, which is ofcourse false, greeks tend to lose their tang because of many "literal" ppl speaking english, so it depends on which side of the fence you are, and then go on to claim the next claptrap saying slavs had no literacy. Arbitrary idiocy.
So to use your pathetic argument, the fact that Serbs and Poles still understand each other after being separate for more than 2000 years, in contrast to e.g. hellenistic greek VS modern greek or even kathareuousa vs modern greek, should we conclude that modern greeks are far less literate than Serbs/Poles? your idiodic argumentation seem to point to that direction.

I will not comment the other dungeon here about slavs being located in the middle of the indoeuropeans, let me ask you, who lives on the eastern side of them? Slavs clearly live in the border of europe, neighboring asians on one hand, and germanics on the other. So pre-christian similarities with Latin and Greek cannot be explained with such arbitrary silly simplifications. Take numbers from 1-20 compare the relative distances between all major indo-european tangs and you'll see the light.

There are only a few elements known of Thracian language, its equally idiotic to use such weak assumptions to explain such strong actuality.

You are so fucking stupid that you compare Poles and Serbs of TODAY with Greeks of TODAY and Greeks of the PAST.

If I tell you that the Greeks who have emigrated in Australia not only speak the same with the Greeks of today, but they are speaking the exact same language, would that argument make mine stronger? No, because the very comparison you started is IDIOTIC.

Fact is, the language that the Serbs speak today is probably irrelevant to the language that was spoken in Serbia 2.000 years ago, and as for Poland, I'd rather not even argue because nobody has a clue of what was spoken there 2.000 years ago...

As for the Slavic language being "poetic", "natural" and whatever, you can keep masturbating to eternity...

The Serbs and Poles can understand each other today because the separation was less than 2.000 years ago... Slavic as we know it today is a byproduct of the development of Glagolitic and Old Church Slavonic. Older forms of speech spoken in Serbia and Poland have little or no relation to either Glagolitic or Old Church Slavonic.

In fact there are many cases where old languages managed to revive after a foreign language was imposed upon them, like in the case of Norway (Nynorsk - Bokmal) with the first one being developed from Old Norse (still with plenty foreign influences) and Bokmal being developed from Danish, and getting closer to the Old Norse over time. The same happened to the Baltic languages which were dominated by German and Russian. The original languages of Poland and Serbia are NOT PROVEN TO BE RELATED to any old language spoken in those areas... Because no such languages or dialects survived the Glagolitic/Old Church Slavonic.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Well, l could argue Petros, that Slavic was ONE language mass from North to South which was severed by Huns and Romans (Hungary and Romania). Both Hungarians and Romanians are heavily influenced by Slavic!

Yes, but no old Latin terms survive in any Slavic languages at all, which proves that the Slavic languages are a later development than the introduction of Latin in the Balkans. If Slavic had old Latin words, that would mean that the Slavs were here when the Romans conquered the Balkans. They were not.