Macedonia-third albanian state on the balkans? [Archive] - Page 4 - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Bugarash 1893

02-15-2013, 06:15 AM

Yes, Skopje 67% ethnic Macedonian

Macedonians from the countryside are keeping Skopje alive.
Albanians in Skopje have a very high birth rate,even with with Macedonians being currently about 65%,fully assimilating the few % of Serbs and a large influx of Macedonians from the other parts...the Albanians still count almost 40% of all births.

Kumanovo 61% ethnic Macedonian....majority Macedonian cities...

The situation with Kumanovo is the same as with Skopje,Albanians make up 35% of the births-few 5 less that in Skopje... but on the other hand you dont have newcomers for the macedonian body.
So Macedonians are feeding out of the Serbs.

Good thing about Kumanovo is that the Albanians from the villages in the neighbouring Lipkovo municipality havent decided to come down to the city.

And BTW, don't forget Tetovo is 35% ethnic Macedonian, still a large Macedonian population there...

Yeah,back in 2002.
According to the 2011 stats,Macedonians are 16% of the births in the Tetovo Municipality.

Tetovo,Gostivar,Debar,Struga,soon and Kicevo-FORGET
The struggle is now for Skopje and Kumanovo.

iNird

02-15-2013, 06:59 AM

Vojnik

02-15-2013, 11:21 AM

Albanians need to assimilate the lost Albanian Orthodox in Mavrovo and Western Macedonia will be complete. :D

You are such a goose. The lost people are you Sqiptaricised Slavs in western Macedonia. Half of you are Slavs who have been Izlamified during the Ottoman rule, and the other half are newcomers from the 17th century.

Albanians started to make serious inroads into northwest Macedonia and Kosovo, however, only in the 17th century when Ottoman persecution of the native Slav population emptied these areas of their inhabitants. After the fall of the empire of Gjergj Slkenderbey, the Albanians were largely loyal to the ottoman beys. Most converted to Islam and were rewarded with new lands bordering Albania. Many also learnt the Ottoman elite language and were schooled in Anatolia, later becoming beys in their own right.

Macedonia: Bradt travel guide second edition.
Thammy Evans
Page 39

You are just joke of a nation.

Novi Pazar

02-15-2013, 11:44 AM

Well Tetovo municipality is a bit more "diverse" but the surrounding municipalities are vastly Albanian.

Similar situation in Kumanovo, Lipkovo might be it's own municipality but I believe the local considered it part of Kumanovo. Sort like Zajaz and Oslomej are considered to be part of Kicevo.

I believe Skopje will always remain predominately Macedonian and will always remain like such because the capital is for too important to lose.

Albanians need to assimilate the lost Albanian Orthodox in Mavrovo and Western Macedonia will be complete. :D

Still dreaming iNird, its more like Old Serbian Mijaks who originated from Elbasan, who later were Islamified into Torbesh, then after with Shqiptar pressure became Shqiptars.

I have read here some Shqiptars are pleased to see Goranci and Torbeshi assimilating in Shqiptars?

iNird

02-15-2013, 12:54 PM

You are such a goose. The lost people are you Sqiptaricised Slavs in western Macedonia. Half of you are Slavs who have been Izlamified during the Ottoman rule, and the other half are newcomers from the 17th century.

Macedonia: Bradt travel guide second edition.
Thammy Evans
Page 39

You are just joke of a nation.

In the same source:

"The Gorna (Upper) Reka region, from the village Brodec to the village Volkovija is mostly abandoned today but, in the past, was inhabited by Albanian-speaking Macedonians, called Shkreti"

:D

Albanians from FYROM really don't differ that much from Albanians from Albania. See below:

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/kvf4wXIHcAnKciHtoNHvm2Rsn.png

http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf

Also you should read about Branko Manojlovski here's his fb page:

http://www.facebook.com/branko.manojlovski.7

Notice how he speaks Albanian but his younger relatives do not.

;)

But I was half joking about them, but I will say the Mijak wedding traditions and attire are very similar to Albanians from what I have seen on the net.

Still dreaming iNird, its more like Old Serbian Mijaks who originated from Elbasan, who later were Islamified into Torbesh, then after with Shqiptar pressure became Shqiptars.

I have read here some Shqiptars are pleased to see Goranci and Torbeshi assimilating in Shqiptars?

There have been some assimilation, but this is on the minor scale. Albanians never had a strong church to assimilate, unlike Serbs.

PS:

That was a mistake on my part to respond to you Novi.

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 12:05 AM

The high immigration rate among Albanians in the last 20 years,especially till 2001 gave the Macedonians some free space.
I analized how the situation in Macedonia would have looked like if that didint happen.

We would have had the following situation:

11,000 albanian births.
11,500 macedonian births.

So istead of albanians composing 42% of the total births,now they are 34%.

But albanians even after the deportation to Turkey,assimilation of Orthodox Albanians into the macedonian body and the arrival of the Aegean refugees after the civil war in Greece are having great results.

If it wasnt for these factors,Im afraid that Macedonia now would have had an albanian majority of 50+%.

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 12:19 AM

Here is a another look.
A comperation between Macedonians and Serbs.

According to the stats from 2011 we have:

The CBR-birth rate and CDR-death rate of Macedonians 8,8 / 11
Serbs were at 9,2 / 14,8

Now these are results based on the number of macedonians according to the macedonian 2002 census and the number of serbs according to the 2011 serbian census.

There is no way Serbs to have a better CBR than Macedonians.
But going by those numbers,thats the result that comes up.
So how come then Serbs have 3 times higher natural population decrease than the Macedonians?

That of course means that the total number of Macedonians is lower but the answer lies somewhere else and what I want to mark out is something else...and thats the CDR-mortality/death rate.

The only thing keeping Macedonians at bay now is that they havent entered into the stage when the more numerous generations will starty dying out at a rate that will have an effect on the CDR.

SILNI

02-16-2013, 12:40 AM

Serbia , bulgaria , germany and hungary are among top countries in the world regarding low birth rates.

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 01:49 AM

Did you register just to tell us that nugget of wisdom?
Read the title for heavens sake before you barge into a thread.

Italy,Ukraine,Romania...Exept for Ireland and some Sandinavian states,nobody else has a positive birth rate.
Germany is the worst.

The thing is none of them is in the position of Macedonia where muslims make 40% of the population and 50% of the births.

Good thing Kosovo became indipendent because Kosovo Albanians would have eaten Serbia alive.

SILNI

02-16-2013, 02:06 AM

Did you register just to tell us that nugget of wisdom?

Sorry , I just noticed that you are allergic whenever bulgaria is mentioned while you developed a some kind of fetish regarding macedonian demographic.

Better concentrate on your own demographic given this shocking data:

Bulgarians 2001 census - 6,655,210 ......83.9 %
Bulgarians 2011 census - 5,664,624 ......84.8 %

Maybe I missed something but it look like nearly 900 000 drop in only ten years , not to mention 10 % of turks.

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 02:11 AM

Sorry , I just noticed that you are allergic whenever bulgaria is mentioned while you developed a some kind of fetish regarding macedonian demographic.

Better concentrate on your own demographic given this shocking data:

Bulgarians 2001 census - 6,655,210 ......83.9 %
Bulgarians 2011 census - 5,664,624 ......84.8 %

Maybe I missed something but it look like nearly 900 000 drop in only ten years , not to mention 10 % of turks.

:picard1:
You did miss,just a little bit...like the 700,000 who didint declare their nationality.

Turks were over 20% about 100 years ago.
Now they are 8%.

I told you,leave this demographic stuff to the experts.
Everyone can open wikipedia and act like he knows what his talking about.

SILNI

02-16-2013, 02:11 AM

There aint much to expect from a Serbian stormfronter :lol:

Serbstormfronter logic -> create thread in full-retard capslockmode on -> "ALBANIANS ARE NOT WHITE!!!"
I didn't mentioned albanians here , but given that you mentioned some expectations here you go

Projections

The following forecast for the future population is an official estimate of the National Statistical Institute of Bulgaria
2015 -7,160,000
2020 -6,950,000
2025 -6,735,000
2030 -6,519,000
2035 -6,311,000
2040 -6,116,000
2045 -5,929,000
2050 -5,748,000

Not to mention that only 80 % of those numbers are ethnic bulgarians ,

situation in macedonia / serbia do not look so depresive now , does it? :D

SILNI

02-16-2013, 02:13 AM

I told you,leave this demographic stuff to the experts.

:picard2:

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 02:14 AM

:picard2:

Czech Republic

Czechs

2001 census: 9,249,777
2011 census: 6,732,104

2,5 million czechs less in 10 years!

Daaamn Im good in this statistics and shit!

Wooops,forgot the 2,742,669 who didint declare their nationality.

SILNI

02-16-2013, 02:17 AM

Still approx 200 000 less.

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 02:23 AM

I didn't mentioned albanians here , but given that you mentioned some expectations here you go

Not to mention that only 80 % of those numbers are ethnic bulgarians ,

situation in macedonia / serbia do not look so depresive now , does it? :D

Dude,you are so lame that I dont even have the will to get into a debate with you.:)
But I just have to...at least in terms of this post.

In 2012 Macedonians are under 50% of the total births!
40% of the current population is muslim.

And not 80% but almost 85% of the total bulgarian population are Bulgarians.
But even it is 80% thats an absolute majority!

The bulgarian situation is great,not the slightest threat can be found in the bulgarian situation.
With the imputation of Kosovo,Serbia is about in the same situation as Bulgaria.

Another thing-never,never use predictions as a source,especially not predictions from an unknown source and especially not for the following 30-40-50...years.

SILNI

02-16-2013, 02:25 AM

In 2012 Macedonians are under 50% of the total births!
40% of the current population is muslim.
I am aware of it , they are in mess , won't argue with that one.

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 02:35 AM

I wanted to post the latest statistics on Turkey but I forgot.
Btw when you already mentioned the Turks...

Here are the 2011 stats for Turkey:

Western Marmara: 11,5 CBR

-Turks in Western Marmara region have a lower birth rate than some european countries!
Just for a comperasion,a few years ago Bulgaria reached over 10 CBR!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Marmara_Region_in_Turkey.svg/800px-Marmara_Region_in_Turkey.svg.png

There is a big variation from region to region in terms of birth rate.
The kurdish regions are the strongest.
Southeastern Anatolia: 27,1 CBR

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Southeastern_Anatolia_Region_in_Turkey.svg/800px-Southeastern_Anatolia_Region_in_Turkey.svg.png

Here is the graph for all of Turkey

http://www.tuik.gov.tr//hb_en/94/kapak/10923_img_1_94_19.10.2012-176716641.jpg

Bugarash 1893

02-16-2013, 02:43 AM

Kosovo has a larger CBR than Turkey.

Turkey CBR 2011: 16,7
Kosovo CBR 2011: 19,7

If Kosovo didint had a war and such a high immigration rate,I bet they would still maintain a CBR amounting to about 30.

archangel

02-16-2013, 02:51 PM

albanians seem to breed much, this remind me kurdish people,they breed much too

iNird

02-16-2013, 05:02 PM

albanians seem to breed much, this remind me kurdish people,they breed much too

Kurdangel,

No one gives a shit about your empty comparison.

Lastly you are neighbors with the Kurds and share much more in common.

Yours truely,

iNird

archangel

02-16-2013, 05:54 PM

the dude in your avatar look kurdish too my friend:) and you both claim be from mountains:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW7nLEBElZU

Bosnjakinja

02-16-2013, 06:10 PM

Arbërori

02-16-2013, 06:28 PM

Bosnjakinja

02-16-2013, 06:33 PM

The birthrates are quite obvious. As of the religious demographics, not a problem at all. Albanians in Macedonia are secularizing quite quickly, for ex. two of my mom's cousins have got Christian Catholic Albanian spouses, religion I assure you wouldn't be an issue.

It would still be harder for Albaniansto profile themselves as a non Islamic nation...but as far as I'm concerned secularization of any kind is a step forward for any society. You should count on the birthrates dropping along with the secularization though.

Arbërori

02-16-2013, 06:37 PM

It would still be harder for Albaniansto profile themselves as a non Islamic nation...but as far as I'm concerned secularization of any kind is a step forward for any society. You should count on the birthrates dropping along with the secularization though.

I don't think we should, our religious harmony is proof of our religious diversity. I agree, with secularization, the issue of partially assimilate Orthodox Albanians will also be approached, as it is already. As of the birthrates, might be, who knows.

iNird

02-16-2013, 08:19 PM

I don't think a violent Albanian "takeover" in Macedonia is possible, nor would it be good for anyone. Obviously not for Macedonians, but also Albanians will widely be perceived as muslim expansionists and shouldn't count on support from the West. Also, if this "Greater Albania" was to materialize by some far fetched chance, the religious demographics would change massively in favor of muslims, which, as far as I understand from Albanian members of this board, is far from desirable.

Violent takeover has not been the case nor is is desirable, I agree. 2001 was a bit different and to be honest, the Albanians had a right to rebel at status quo at the time. Non-recognition of the university, lack of Albanians in the state, minority rights and so forth. The method of rebalance is another issue but I do think Albanians had a right to rebel.

As for the latter, if there is a dividence on the issue, it isn't so much a religious one but more of a regional issue IMO. The inclusion of Kosova and Western FYROM would not fare well for Social Party in Albania since most Kosovar and Macedonian Albanians support their opposition.

Novi Pazar

02-16-2013, 10:30 PM

In the same source:

There have been some assimilation, but this is on the minor scale. Albanians never had a strong church to assimilate, unlike Serbs.

PS:

That was a mistake on my part to respond to you Novi.

You are a mistake iNird!

iNird

02-16-2013, 11:38 PM

You are a mistake iNird!

No I'm pretty sure I was planned. I am the oldest child and was conceived a few years into my parents marriage. Not sure where you go that information.

Let us be serious here, you are the product of a botched abortion, pretty sure you are a mistake.

Bugarash 1893

02-17-2013, 03:57 AM

How many Albanians would Kosovo have if there wasnt the war and the high rate of immigration?

Kosovo 1948

Albanians: 498.244

Natural increase 1948-2011

Albanians: +1.747.320

Albanians in 2011: 2.245.564

Even without the other groups living in Kosovo,if we take only the Albanians,Kosovo would have been the most densely populated country in Europe after the UK!

Novi Pazar

02-17-2013, 09:02 AM

No I'm pretty sure I was planned. I am the oldest child and was conceived a few years into my parents marriage. Not sure where you go that information.

Let us be serious here, you are the product of a botched abortion, pretty sure you are a mistake.

Don't reply to my posts anymore, please, its shameful you are, you don't have the IQ to debate them. Its best your kind limits themselves up in the Mountains, banished from civilisation, just like your 11/12th cent ancestors!

PS Macedonia, the third Albanian state, is an expansion of destruction, its not humane, i.e, what will it bring to humanity:

drugs, prostitution, disease, poverty, death, trickery etc....Its not Godly!

Novi Pazar

02-17-2013, 09:05 AM

Bugarash 1893

02-17-2013, 10:51 AM

Why are you so NAIVE! Albanians inside Shqiptaria are 2.8mil, whilst they, outside of Shqiptaria, are extremely densely populated? Its all based on LIES!

Sorry but I would rather trust what the statistical offices publish and my PC's digitron than what Novi Pazar has in mind.:tongue

Novi Pazar

02-18-2013, 05:45 AM

Sorry but I would rather trust what the statistical offices publish and my PC's digitron than what Novi Pazar has in mind.:tongue

You keep believing. Anyway, Bugarash are you an Albanian from Macedonia?

iNird

02-18-2013, 05:46 AM

delete

Bugarash 1893

02-20-2013, 09:43 PM

Albanians are definitely taking over Caska municipality-second largest by territory in Macedonbia and in a strategic location too,central part of the country

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/MKD_muni_nonn%28caska%29.png

Population according to the 2002 census:

Macedonians = 4,395 (57.3%)
Albanians = 2,703 (35.2%)
Turks = 391 (5.1%)

Students who finished primary school 2010/11

Macedonians: 36 (31,3%)
Albanians: 62 (53,9%)
Turks: 16 (13,9%)

Total students in primary school 2010/11

Macedonians: 329 (31,6%)
Albanians: 620 (59,5%)
Turks: 83 (7,97%)

The structure of the upcoming generation:

Births 2011

Macedonians: 26 (17,2%)
Albanians: 111 (73,5%)
Turks: 3 (1,98%)

Deaths 2011

Macedonians: 63 (68,5%)
Albanians: 20 (21,7%)
Turks: 0

Geni

02-20-2013, 09:46 PM

Find 1 girl man...:bored:

Bugarash 1893

02-20-2013, 10:19 PM

As things are going in 10 years max,Albanians will control all municipalities on the stretch from Lipkovo till Struga,on that path,going along the borders of Kosovo and Albania we will have only municipalities with 50+% albanian population and albanian mayors.

Thats a territory of about 5,983 km².
22% of the total territory of the country.

Although enough and the needed municipalities to attach them into a compact formation.

The municipality borders are still cut in a way to heavily suit the Macedonians.

If Albanians play it smart,attach Debarca and Vevcani municipalies to Struga,they will have under their control 6,430 km².

As well as if Makedonski Brod joins some of the neighbouring albanian municipalities,that will leave them with 7,318 km² of territory of the total 25.713 km².-Enough.

The rest of the country will have so little resources left,that it wont be able to survive on its own.

And thats when the anschluss happens.:thumb001:

SILNI

02-20-2013, 11:20 PM

How long Skopje can resist? What are demographic prognosis for the capital?

Crn Volk

02-20-2013, 11:31 PM

How long Skopje can resist? What are demographic prognosis for the capital?

Skopje is 67% ethnic Macedonian, Serbs are 3%. In 1953, it was 61% ethnic Macedonian, so population of Macedonians has actually increased. This will continue as urbanisation continues and Macedonians move from the villages to the cities.

SILNI

02-20-2013, 11:39 PM

Skopje is 67% ethnic Macedonian, Serbs are 3%. In 1953, it was 61% ethnic Macedonian, so population of Macedonians has actually increased. This will continue as urbanisation continues and Macedonians move from the villages to the cities.
Urbanisation is not necessarily good thing regarding demography and demographic migrations.
Increasing urbanisation level led to death of villages and that led toward lower birth rates.
At least that happen in serbia.
Villages are of the at most importance (even if sound funny) in demographic war.
look how many albanian villages have above 5000 people.
Serb villages are mainly abandoned with noone in it.

Crn Volk

02-20-2013, 11:45 PM

Urbanisation is not necessarily good thing regarding demography and demographic migrations.
Increasing urbanisation level led to death of villages and that led toward lower birth rates.
At least that happen in serbia.
Villages are of the at most importance (even if sound funny) in demographic war.
look how many albanian villages have above 5000 people.
Serb villages are mainly abandoned with noone in it.

Yes I know, much of eastern Macedonia is the same.

Crn Volk

02-20-2013, 11:46 PM

Albanians will surely take over those villages if the so-called urbanisation is heavy.

True, this has been happening for some time around Skopje and Tetovo

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 12:48 AM

How long Skopje can resist? What are demographic prognosis for the capital?

At a longer stage-bad.
At a shorter one,Macedonians can hold on to it...macedonian influx from other parts of the country are keeping it stable.

This is the 2008-2011 Births/Deaths situation of the city,the situation is more dramatic in a wider sense...in the Skopje region/Metropolitan Area which includes the City of Skopje + the municipalities around it.

But Urban Skopje is in Macedonian hands for good,shorter and longer stage.

According to the 2002 census:

Macedonians: 338,358 = 66.75%
Albanians: 103,891 = 20.49%
Roma: 23,475 = 4.63%
Serbs: 14,298 = 2.82%
Turks: 8,595 = 1.70%
Bosniaks: 7,585 = 1.50%

City of Skopje 2008-2011

Births/Deaths

Macedonians

3.327 / 3.503
3.417 / 3.495
3.443 / 3.558
3.290 / 3.545

Albanians

1.974 / 619
2.030 / 656
2.240 / 636
2.194 / 637

Roma

655 / 186
701 / 200
687 / 186
641 / 204

Serbs

47 / 94
61 / 89
42 / 130
43 / 141

Turks

108 / 28
100 / 38
72 / 37
96 / 29

Bosniaks

73 / 37
89 / 34
81 / 36
85 / 41

Dont want to be a Nostradamus or anything,but historically...all cities with this kind of population makeup Christians/Muslims dont end up well.

Sarajevo is the closest example-a city that had a much much bigger cohesion between the groups than Skopje.

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 06:05 PM

We have the info from the fourth quarter:thumb001:
Which means we have the entire rough info for 2012!

Bosnjakinja

02-21-2013, 06:17 PM

I get a distinct feeling this Albanian takeover of Macedonia makes you happy, Bugarash? :) Why?

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 06:42 PM

Unstable Macedonia=unstable serbomania=unstable position of the serbian idea in Macedonia=unstable macedonism.

All that leads to a crack from within.
And thats when Bulgaria gains in speed,on all fields.
Maybe even a possible anschluss in the future?-the nonalbanian part od course.

Currently Albanians are a great indirect instrument for the goal.

Sve je to u ime velikobugarskim teznjama Bosnjo.:)

mandi

02-21-2013, 06:44 PM

We have the info from the fourth quarter:thumb001:
Which means we have the entire rough info for 2012!
So could you show today an analisys of present demographics of macedonia.. in my judgment, i see a grow of births in albanian municipalities near skopje and a steadily birthrate in pollog region, while in some macedonian municipalities of east, i see a baby boom, which means that Gruevski measures have achieved results in poor municipalities, in oposition with rich in Skopje, and also as i see Macedonia is going toward a clear shift, between west and east..
an event surprises me.. that in those municipalities where albanians are mixed with macedonians, or are in region where macedonians are in slow majority, they really have a baby boom.. so in studenicani near Skopje, in aracinovo, in lipkpvo municipality, or in chaska..

mandi

02-21-2013, 06:48 PM

I think bugarash wants the division of macedonia, and a strong tool for this is the high percentage of albanians in macedonia, that perhaps in future would send to an idea of federalism of country, to avoid the spread of albanians more in east, there where now are only macedonians, and in the end a federal macedonia with 2 parts, would be more near the bulgaria..to join it

Vulcho

02-21-2013, 06:48 PM

What's happening in Macedonia is very sad. But at least better Albanians than Gypsies, as in Bulgaria.

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 06:52 PM

What's happening in Macedonia is very sad. But at least better Albanians than Gypsies, as in Bulgaria.

Gypsies arent even a nation,they are rather a clan formation than a nation.
Easy to assimilate,dumb,naive,easy to manipulate.

Without a unified culture,tradition,language,history,alphabet,flag,r eligion...
Thats why I prefer Gypsies over Albanians.

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 06:54 PM

So could you show today an analisys of present demographics of macedonia.. in my judgment, i see a grow of births in albanian municipalities near skopje and a steadily birthrate in pollog region, while in some macedonian municipalities of east, i see a baby boom, which means that Gruevski measures have achieved results in poor municipalities, in oposition with rich in Skopje, and also as i see Macedonia is going toward a clear shift, between west and east..
an event surprises me.. that in those municipalities where albanians are mixed with macedonians, or are in region where macedonians are in slow majority, they really have a baby boom.. so in studenicani near Skopje, in aracinovo, in lipkpvo municipality, or in chaska..

Im gathering up the stats so I can present my views.
Btw I think that it is possible for Albanians to have 8000 births in 2012.

The year for Macedonia started catastrophic.
2011 was pratty bad for the birth number,2012 started even worse!
Plus it had the highest морталитѕ рате ever!
But the last quarter of the year balanced the situation,the births went up by a 15% increase from the same period in 2011.

But the mortality didint change.
Macedonia for the first time in its history had over 20,000 deaths.

mandi

02-21-2013, 07:06 PM

Yes me too think the same for Albanians.. as it results me in some my simple counting albanians have an increase of 4 5 percent in together 10 municipalities inhabited from albanians.. only 2 municipalities in Zajas and Oslome they are much down and this because of migration of people.. and i think Albanians will be around 8000 thousand this year.. or 33- 34 percent of births of country, but as i see macedonia is being taking 2 sides... west pure albanian and east pure and stronger macedonian.. for Skopje the future will dictate an agreement based on best european models between 2 ethnies, but i never think Skopje will be the second Sarajevo

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 07:36 PM

First things first

Macedonia

Births/Deaths

2012-2011-2010

23.529 / 20.113 - (22.770 / 19.465) - (24.296 / 19.113)

SILNI

02-21-2013, 09:06 PM

unstable serbomania= unstable position of the serbian idea in Macedonia=unstable macedonism.

There is no "serbo mania" within macedonia nowdays. Even our church is persecuted.
On other hand even if albanians do something there , west macedonia is almost 100 % inhabited by ethnic macedonians , I don't see the way you to take over.

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 09:10 PM

There is no "serbo mania" within macedonia nowdays. Even our church is persecuted.

Dude,dont make me start counting examples of serbomania.:rolleyes:

On other hand even if albanians do something there , west macedonia is almost 100 % inhabited by ethnic macedonians , I don't see the way you to take over.

:picard1:
Demography is not for you my friend.
Just go visit a thread for DNA or something.

Ill take this that you are speaking about Eastern Macedonia.
The fact that Eastern Macedonia has a macedonian majority was never a problem.
Because Macedonians are Bulgarians.
And Bulgaria has tons of ways under its sleeves to influence upon them.

SILNI

02-21-2013, 09:12 PM

Dude,dont make me start counting examples of serbomania.:rolleyes:
By whom?
By >3 % of serbs?
Get a grip man.

:picard1:
Demography is not for you my friend.
Just go visit a thread for DNA or something.
Spill it out then , if not by massive assimilation (almost impossible) how you intend to convert 1,5 million of people?

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 09:25 PM

By whom?
By >3 % of serbs?
Get a grip man.

By the remains of the Serboslavian system,who have an jewish like structure.
In other words,few are concentrated on the top...
Ill point out the media as the leading instrument of serbomania in Macedonia.

And just look at the last big example:

On the 21 year anniversary of macedonian indipendence,the main event was organized in Philip the Second Arena,with singers brought in from Serbia-under the label of X-YU stars and they were singing macedonian songs.

The event was organized and attended by all of the top officials who happen to be from VMRO-DPMNE party.

A class serbomania right there.

Spill it out then , if not by massive assimilation (almost impossible) how you intend to convert 1,5 million of people?

Firstly,they arent 1,5 million but 1,2 million.

Bulgarian passports-currently almost 100,000 Macedonians hold bulgarian citizenship.
Macedonian students in bulgarian universities.
Economic ties.
Those are processes going on now!
Thats a long stage strategy!
The berries from that bush are to be picked up in the coming time!

And if albanians take their part of Macedonia,the other part will have so little resources that it will have no choice but to joing a neighbouring country.
We can settle even for a confederation.

The fact that Bulgarians and Macedonians share the same names,surnames,history,language and till 1945 the same alphabet...they will be assimilated in no time.

Since they adopted so much from the Serbs during the commie period-a period that they werent a target of assimilation,then just think how would things flow in this case.:thumb001:

Bugarash 1893

02-21-2013, 11:33 PM

This yearly update is probably the most interesting of them all,the more interesting thing than this would be when the details about the ethnicity come up.:)

We have alot of records this year,almost all bad...

Negative records , municipalities with the least number of births in the last 8 years: (2012-2005)
-(maybe even going before 2005,dont have the stats for that period).

Bitola : 829 - 880 - 976 - 989 - 920 - 918 - 895 - 879

Demir Hisar: 57 - 78 - 65 - 81 - 68 - 61 - 67 - 73

Drugovo: 21 - 24 - 30 - 24 - 27 - 33 - 26 - 31

Zajas: 60 - 72 - 86 - 66 - 75 - 78 - 99 - 78

Jegunovce: 108 - 109 - 132 - 110 - 129 - 114 - 132 - 122

Makedonski Brod: 46 - 67 - 65 - 75 - 70 - 67 - 55 - 57

Novaci: 26 - 35 - 35 - 38 - 53 - 37 - 38 - 37

Oslomej: 43 - 56 - 50 - 55 - 53 - 66 - 58 - 61

Ohrid : 516 - 530 - 572 - 573 - 549 - 582 - 580 - 570

Pehcevo: 28 - 37 - 40 - 44 - 66 - 36 - 31 - 43

Rankovce: 36 - 43 - 48 - 40 - 37 - 41 - 40 - 41

Rosoman: 28 - 45 - 54 - 53 - 42 - 34 - 62 - 45

From these municipalities,Albanians are present only in three.

Zajas and Oslomej have a 100% albanian population.
Immigration is eating them up.

Jagunovce on the last census had a share of 55% macedonian majority while the rest were Albanians.

Crn Volk

02-21-2013, 11:49 PM

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 12:06 AM

The situation in Bitola is catastrophic-btw my grandfather is from a neighbouring region of Bitola,Demir Hisar.
A village between Krusevo and Smilevo-probably the most historical part of Macedonia.

I realize the situation in those regions to be bad,but in a city the size of Bitola,situated in the plains a regional and historical center...Thats what you get when serbomans in power are pushing through a project like Skopje 2014 while the rest of the country doesnt know what a theatre is.

Skopje=Macedonia
Macedonia=Skopje

Bitola 2012-note this is the total date
Macedonians,Roma,Albanians,Turks,Vlachs...all together

Births/Deaths

829 / 1.267

-438

According to the 2002 census Bitola municipality had:

Total population : 95.385
Macedonians: 84.616

In 2011 Bitola had:

Total births: 880

Macedonians: 705 / Deaths: 1.092
Roma: 82
Albanians: 64
Turks: 13

Onur

02-22-2013, 12:07 AM

What's happening in Macedonia is very sad. But at least better Albanians than Gypsies, as in Bulgaria.
gypsy-hate is so stupid because gypsies are the best minority for any country to have. They are relatively harmless, peaceful and fun-loving people. All the harm they do are just simple things like stealing and drug dealing, thats it.

You Bulgarians don't have any idea about minority problems because you have the best minorities in the world; Turks and Gypsies. You think like Turks who goes to the mosques or gypsies who steals some stupid stuff are supposedly big problems but you are wrong. For example, i would love to trade all the gypsies in the world with the Kurds we have in Turkey.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 12:19 AM

gypsy-hate is so stupid because gypsies are the best minority for any country to have. They are relatively harmless, peaceful and fun-loving people. All the harm they do are just simple things like stealing and drug dealing, thats it.

You Bulgarians don't have any idea about minority problems because you have the best minorities in the world; Turks and Gypsies. You think like Turks who goes to the mosques or gypsies who steals some stupid stuff are supposedly big problems but you are wrong. For example, i would love to trade all the gypsies in the world with the Kurds we have in Turkey.

:picard1:
Onur,have you ever thought of adopting two-three Gypsies?
I hear they are great with the kids...

Or else cut the B.
Gypsies are maggots that live on the back of ordinary bulgarian tax payers...

Thats the main problem with gypsies...they eat,drink,sleep,dance and just sit there and do nothing.

I mean who wants a minority that gives nothing to society?
Aside from hookers,forchin tellers and musicians on the trumpet,

Crn Volk

02-22-2013, 12:59 AM

forchin?

you mean fortune right?

ebati nepismeniot....

Crn Volk

02-22-2013, 01:01 AM

The situation in Bitola is catastrophic-btw my grandfather is from a neighbouring region of Bitola,Demir Hisar.
A village between Krusevo and Smilevo-probably the most historical part of Macedonia.

I realize the situation in those regions to be bad,but in a city the size of Bitola,situated in the plains a regional and historical center...Thats what you get when serbomans in power are pushing through a project like Skopje 2014 while the rest of the country doesnt know what a theatre is.

Skopje=Macedonia
Macedonia=Skopje

Bitola 2012-note this is the total date
Macedonians,Roma,Albanians,Turks,Vlachs...all together

Births/Deaths

829 / 1.267

-438

According to the 2002 census Bitola municipality had:

In 2011 Bitola had:

Bad? In what way? Like any town in Bulgaria for example? I hear towns there are quickly turning into ghost-towns...

iNird

02-22-2013, 05:09 AM

The Birth/Death rates need to be taken into account with emigration rates. Albanians in general have higher emigration rates which could offset the birth/death advantage they have. Also something like 30% of Albanian newborns are from Skopje, an area that will never become Albanian. Though I do think FYROM-Slavs is in some trouble due to aging population, Westernization and Bulgarization though the Albanians are facing issues with Westernization and emigration.

I'm interested to see the results of the local elections. It could shed some more light on the demographics.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 07:46 AM

forchin?

you mean fortune right?

ebati nepismeniot....

Have you ever heard about the Bronx slang yeh moron?
Tokmak eden.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 07:53 AM

Bad? In what way? Like any town in Bulgaria for example? I hear towns there are quickly turning into ghost-towns...

Yeah.

Plovdiv,Varna,Burgas,Rousse....are ghost towns.:D

Bulgaria has about 10 regional centers btw.
Cities where there is alot going on.
Construction,cultural life,tourism...

Whats going on in Shtip,Veles,Prilep...?
Or Kochani?
I visited Kochani last year.
There is one street,a statue and a fountain the size smaller than my balkony.
And thats f*&%$#@ it!

Again son,dont try to compare anything from Macedonia with Bulgaria.
Treba da imas muda do kolena za da se meris so Bugarija.:)

adsız

02-22-2013, 07:54 AM

:picard1:
Onur,have you ever thought of adopting two-three Gypsies?
I hear they are great with the kids...

Or else cut the B.
Gypsies are maggots that live on the back of ordinary bulgarian tax payers...

Thats the main problem with gypsies...they eat,drink,sleep,dance and just sit there and do nothing.

I mean who wants a minority that gives nothing to society?
Aside from hookers,forchin tellers and musicians on the trumpet,

Gypsies are harmless people.
"Eat, drink, sleep, dance, fortune tellers, and musicians" >> These are part of their culture .What is problem with that? Just let them free live in their own way..

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 08:12 AM

Gypsies are harmless people.
"Eat, drink, sleep, dance, fortune tellers, and musicians" >> These are part of their culture .What is problem with that? Just let them free live in their own way..

The problem is that someone else pays for the eating and drinking...

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 08:27 AM

The positive records:)

Municipalities that in 2012 reached the highest number of births in the last 8 years:

Saraj

650
608
578
588
656
666
648
683

Lipkovo

396
378
389
348
361
380
344
433

Studenichani

415
419
381
418
422
473
434
521 (30 CBR)

Dolneni

217
211
214
214
218
213
242
256

adsız

02-22-2013, 08:34 AM

The problem is that someone else pays for the eating and drinking...

How ? You mean government pays some money to jobless people ?

alfieb

02-22-2013, 08:36 AM

How ? You mean government pays some money to jobless people ?
Not jobless people. Unemployed who are looking for work are jobless.

These are parasites.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 10:26 AM

How ? You mean government pays some money to jobless people ?

Gypsies live on welfare!
Receive money for being unemployed,benefits for lonely mothers...
Of course there are some that work but most of them have a parasite mentality.

They also dont pay taxes,water,electricity.
All of that is tolerated by every bulgarian government because they use them as electorate material.
Being easy to manipulate when elections come,parties usualy buy gypsies a kebab and a bottle of beer and thats how they get their vote.

Hope Bulgaria gets into the Shengen Zone sooner so more of them can leave for Western Europe.

Vulcho

02-22-2013, 11:23 AM

gypsy-hate is so stupid because gypsies are the best minority for any country to have. They are relatively harmless, peaceful and fun-loving people. All the harm they do are just simple things like stealing and drug dealing, thats it.

You Bulgarians don't have any idea about minority problems because you have the best minorities in the world; Turks and Gypsies. You think like Turks who goes to the mosques or gypsies who steals some stupid stuff are supposedly big problems but you are wrong. For example, i would love to trade all the gypsies in the world with the Kurds we have in Turkey.

I'd be happy to trade every gypsy for two kurds. It's a good deal, in which everybody wins - the gypsies and kurds each go into a more tolerant society; the turks weaken a troublesome minority, the bulgarians get help for the demographic crisis.

(I'm kidding of course)

Midori

02-22-2013, 11:39 AM

But Macedonians would rather join with Serbia if they had to chose, and Bugarash knows this.

And that's what is eventually going to happen if the Albanians take over the Western parts.

Vardar Macedonia belonged to Serbia anyway when Macedonia was split between its neighbours in 1913, so they're just going to take back what was given to them after the treaty of Bucharest. :shrug:

adsız

02-22-2013, 11:39 AM

I'd be happy to trade every gypsy for two kurds. It's a good deal, in which everybody wins - the gypsies and kurds each go into a more tolerant society; the turks weaken a troublesome minority, the bulgarians get help for the demographic crisis.

(I'm kidding of course)
You do not have any idea about kurds...

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 11:42 AM

And that's what is eventually going to happen if the Albanians take over the Western parts.

Vardar Macedonia belonged to Serbia anyway when Macedonia was split between its neighbours in 1913, so they're just going to take back what was given to them after the treaty of Bucharest. :shrug:

One more move out of Serbia and it will go under NATO occupation...

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 11:44 AM

Again Studenichani holds the records as the most vital municipality!

Another comparison to show you how vital is it,Ill compare it to Karposh municipality-part of Skopje.

Studenichani

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/MKD_muni_nonn%28Studenicani%29.png

According to the 2002 census:

Total population: 17.246

Albanians: 11.793 = 68,3%
Turks: 3.285 = 19,0%
Bosniaks: 1.662 = 9,6%
Macedonians: 309 = 1,8%

Total Births/Deaths in 2012: 521/109

Karposh

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Map_of_Karpo%C5%A1_Municipality%2C_Macedonia.svg

According to the 2002 census:

Total population: 59.666

Macedonians: 52.810 = 88,5%
Serbs: 2.184 = 2,7%
Albanians: 1.952 = 2,3%
Roma: 615 = 1,0%

Total Births/Deaths in 2012: 550/668

So in Studenichani municipality 17.246 give birth to 521!
While in Karposh 59.666 give birth to 550!

Note that Karposh being one of the most urban and developed municipalities also has a large influx of vital Macedonians from other parts of the country...but even that cant help him in the battle with Studenichani!:)

SILNI

02-22-2013, 11:47 AM

On the 21 year anniversary of macedonian indipendence,the main event was organized in Philip the Second Arena,with singers brought in from Serbia-under the label of X-YU stars and they were singing macedonian songs.

The event was organized and attended by all of the top officials who happen to be from VMRO-DPMNE party.

A class serbomania right there.

WHAT?
So if there are serbian singers , it is serbian imperialism as well?
Let me remind you that serbian nationalists back in 1990s were not exactly thrilled about independence of macedonia.
Now you blame serbs for some "serbomania" in macedonia while we are under 3 percent there without any politic power what so ever.
How else you explain reduce of our numbers there and persecution of SPC (Serb Church)?
And than you brag how more and more macedonians took bulgarian citizenships.
It sound to me that there is your agenda on the rise and not serb one.
If not , why not 100 000 serbian passports then?
Something isn't right in your story , I mean you shouldn't be accusing others for something they are not guilty of what so ever.

Midori

02-22-2013, 11:54 AM

If not , why not 100 000 serbian passports then?

If Serbia was in the EU I can assure you that NOBODY in Macedonia would take Bulgarian passports ;)

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 11:56 AM

WHAT?
So if there are serbian singers , it is serbian imperialism as well?
Let me remind you that serbian nationalists back in 1990s were not exactly thrilled about independence of macedonia.
Now you blame serbs for some "serbomania" in macedonia while we are under 3 percent there without any politic power what so ever.
How else you explain reduce of our numbers there and persecution of SPC (Serb Church)?
And than you brag how more and more macedonians took bulgarian citizenships.
It sound to me that there is your agenda on the rise and not serb one.
If not , why not 100 000 serbian passports then?
Something isn't right in your story , I mean you shouldn't be accusing others for something they are not guilty of what so ever.

Serbomans are on top of the state structure!
People with proserbian views!

Of course that macedonism remains the main ideology but the way how serbomania works is that it stimulates antibulgarian propaganda and dues forming public opinion in a way that only Serbs are the true friends...

Thats why we have today these so called Macedonians,who have adopted so much from the Serbs that we can freely give them the nickname ''Little Serbs''.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 11:59 AM

If Serbia was in the EU I can assure you that NOBODY in Macedonia would take Bulgarian passports ;)

The demand for bulgarian passports hasnt to do much with EU membership.
Because the request was big year before Bulgaria became a EU member,after the EU dropped the visa regime for macedonian citizens...

Bosnjakinja

02-22-2013, 12:02 PM

Thats why we have today these so called Macedonians,who have adopted so much from the Serbs that we can freely give them the nickname ''Little Serbs''.
Maybe the reason why it's like that is because the Serbs have never pursued an aggressive assimilation policy on the Macedonians. I don't think Macedonians yearn for Serbs as much as they yearn for the peace and stability they had in Yugoslavia. I know that because Bosniaks are similar in many ways. We are a small people that has been wedged between pretty nationalistic groups and therefore have had to choose between the lesser of two evils. On our forums there are always arguments between "yugonostalgics" who are accused of basically being "Serb lovers", and "patriots".

SILNI

02-22-2013, 12:03 PM

Thats why we have today these so called Macedonians,who have adopted so much from the Serbs that we can freely give them the nickname ''Little Serbs''.

Cute nickname , but I don't buy it.

We do not see some pro-serbian policies by macedonian government.
And YOU know this very well.

1. They recognized kosovo
2. they practically outlawed Serbian church

Not very serb loving if you ask me
While in the meantime they allowed 100 000 dual citizenships with bulgaria , if macedonian government was "serbomans" they sure wouldn't allowed this numbers. But ban it instead.

SILNI

02-22-2013, 12:07 PM

If Serbia was in the EU I can assure you that NOBODY in Macedonia would take Bulgarian passports ;)

Well , we don't need to worry about that since serbia will enter eu somewhere in .. never.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 12:08 PM

Maybe the reason why it's like that is because the Serbs have never pursued an aggressive assimilation policy on the Macedonians.

:picard1:
You know...you dont have to point out your opinion when you havent got a clue about an issue?:)

The period during the Kingdom of Serboslavia is known as more brutal than the ottoman yoke.
The problem is that they were totally brainwashed during communism.
Made into thinking SErbs are the good and Bulgarians the enemies.

I don't think Macedonians yearn for Serbs as much as they yearn for the peace and stability they had in Yugoslavia. I know that because Bosniaks are similar in many ways. We are a small people that has been wedged between pretty nationalistic groups and therefore have had to choose between the lesser of two evils. On our forums there are always arguments between "yugonostalgics" who are accused of basically being "Serb lovers", and "patriots".

That shows how weak their national and state identity is.
You arent small nations but you are weak nations.
Slovenians are smaller than you but they were the first to declare indipendence.
So you eather got what it takes or you remain in throughts on ''how it was when it was'''.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 12:16 PM

Cute nickname , but I don't buy it.

We do not see some pro-serbian policies by macedonian government.
And YOU know this very well.

1. They recognized kosovo
2. they practically outlawed Serbian church

Not very serb loving if you ask me
While in the meantime they allowed 100 000 dual citizenships with bulgaria , if macedonian government was "serbomans" they sure wouldn't allowed this numbers. But ban it instead.

1.They recognized Kosovo because of the Albanians.
2.I told you that Macedonism is still the main ideology.

And WTF is this shit then?

Now tell me this isnt serbomania...

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_pics/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%2013. jpg

http://www.rts.rs/upload/storyBoxImageData/2012/10/27/10848784/Delegacija-SRbije.jpg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka.jpg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%2011. jpg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%2010. jpg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%2014. jpg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%204.j pg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%2015. jpg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%2019. jpg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%202.j pg

http://images.plusinfo.mk/large_gal/2012/10/28/zebrnjak%20100%20godini%20kumanovska%20bitka%206.j pg

Bosnjakinja

02-22-2013, 12:17 PM

:picard1:
You know...you dont have to point out your opinion when you havent got a clue about an issue?:)

The period during the Kingdom of Serboslavia is known as more brutal than the ottoman yoke.
The problem is that they were totally brainwashed during communism.
Made into thinking SErbs are the good and Bulgarians the enemies.

That shows how weak their national and state identity is.
You arent small nations but you are weak nations.
Slovenians are smaller than you but they were the first to declare indipendence.
So you eather got what it takes or you remain in throughts on ''how it was when it was'''.
The thing is that they weren't "brainwashed" into becoming Serbs, but Yugoslavs, and not more so than the other ethnic groups of Yugoslavia. The fact that Macedonians "fell for it" more than others may be a sign of a weak national identity, but tbh I don't think the Macedonian (or Bosniak) national identity is week as much as the Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek ones are immensely strong. Albanians have an extremely strong national identity too for instance, yet they have for much of their history been mere spectactors to their fate much like Bosniaks and Macedonians.
You can't compare Slovenes to Bosniaks and Macedonians, they aren't surrounded by hostile people like us.

By the way, I don't particularly like or dislike Yugoslavia, and I very much agree that yugnostalgics are unproductive people who are "lost in time and space", but I'm just giving an objective description of peoples feelings about it.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 12:27 PM

The thing is that they weren't "brainwashed" into becoming Serbs, but Yugoslavs, and not more so than the other ethnic groups of Yugoslavia. The fact that Macedonians "fell for it" more than others may be a sign of a weak national identity, but tbh I don't think the Macedonian (or Bosniak) national identity is week as much as the Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek ones are immensely strong. Albanians have an extremely strong national identity too for instance, yet they have for much of their history been mere spectactors to their fate much like Bosniaks and Macedonians.
You can't compare Slovenes to Bosniaks and Macedonians, they aren't surrounded by hostile people like us.

By the way, I don't particularly like or dislike Yugoslavia, and I very much agree that yugnostalgics are unproductive people who are "lost in time and space", but I'm just giving an objective description of peoples feelings about it.

They were being killed if they declared to be bulgarian during the royal period.
Under communism,serb communists created a macedonian nation-although the idea existed even before communism.So the commies forced the macedonist idea-safe from assimilation,same way they forced the idea about the existence of a montenegrin nation.

The Albanians dont have a strong national identity,or at least not a very strong one.
The current explosion we're seeing from them is because they are for the first time in their history in a good position.It is like when you give candy for the first time to a child that has been living in a cave from birth till he turned 8.That position leads to generating strong waves of national energy.

Btw at least Bosniaks fought,while if Serbs had the chance to take Macedonia during the brake up,they would have taken it without any resistence.

SILNI

02-22-2013, 12:32 PM

They were being killed if they declared to be bulgarian during the royal period.
Under communism,serb communists created a macedonian nation-although the idea existed even before communism.So the commies forced the macedonist idea-safe from assimilation,same way they forced the idea about the existence of a montenegrin nation.
Not serb communists but yugoslav communists , people without honor , shame , indentity ect. Brainwashed idiots which made more crimes toward serbs than toward all ex-"yugoslav" nations combined.

The Albanians dont have a strong national identity,or at least not a very strong one.
The current explosion we're seeing from them is because they are for the first time in their history in a good position.It is like when you give candy for the first me to a child that has been living in a cave from birth till he turned 8.That position leads to generating strong waves of national energy.
With this I can agree on.

Bosnjakinja

02-22-2013, 12:35 PM

They were being killed if they declared to be bulgarian during the royal period.
Under communism,serb communists created a macedonian nation-although the idea existed even before communism.So the commies forced the macedonist idea-safe from assimilation,same way they forced the idea about the existence of a montenegrin nation.

The Albanians dont have a strong national identity,or at least not a very strong one.
The current explosion we're seeing from them is because they are for the first time in their history in a good position.It is like when you give candy for the first me to a child that has been living in a cave from birth till he turned 8.That position leads to generating strong waves of national energy.

Btw at least Bosniaks fought,while if Serbs had the chance to take Macedonia during the brake up,they would have taken it without any resistence.
Well, ok supposing you're right in what you are saying - why do you want Macedonians as a part of your nation? Just to expand Bulgarian borders?

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 12:41 PM

Well, ok supposing you're right in what you are saying - why do you want Macedonians as a part of your nation? Just to expand Bulgarian borders?

Because Macedonia is where some of the most important events in bulgarian history happened,where some of the most important bulgarians were born.
Because 1,5 million people in Bulgaria have roots from Macedonia-children of the refugees.

I can see you havent got an idea about what is the meaning of Macedonia for Bulgarians.

And of course,taking Macedonia will have other positives sides,like the enlargment of the territory.

Vulcho

02-22-2013, 12:48 PM

The Albanians have been on the rise since the 12th century. Before that, they were like 1 Geg village and 1 Tosk... and now they are one of the major Balkan nations. I wonder how that happened.

SILNI

02-22-2013, 12:50 PM

The Albanians have been on the rise since the 12th century. Before that, they were like 1 Geg village and 1 Tosk... and now they are one of the major Balkan nations. I wonder how that happened.
Why you mean "major"?
They are not. They just used the historical moment to be USA's favourite pet.
That won't last long.
To be major in something need more than simple aggression.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 12:50 PM

They had their moments during the ottoman period but nothing special.
Nobody even mentioned the albanians during the 19 th and 20 centure.
Until 1999.
Since 1999 they have been on the rise,gaining direct control over three states.
So now they are a factor that has to be taken into consideration.

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 01:00 PM

Why you mean "major"?
They are not. They just used the historical moment to be USA's favourite pet.
That won't last long.
To be major in something need more than simple aggression.

Ne seri majketi.
Albanians arent a US pet.
But just used the moment.

Vulcho

02-22-2013, 01:30 PM

Why you mean "major"?
They are not. They just used the historical moment to be USA's favourite pet.
That won't last long.
To be major in something need more than simple aggression.

I mean numerically. They are over 5 million, more than the Croats. I'm not claiming they are ubermenschen or something.

Bosnjakinja

02-22-2013, 01:33 PM

I mean numerically. They are over 5 million, more than the Croats. I'm not claiming they are ubermenschen or something.

Well a high birthrate isn't necessarily a sign of a progressive society.

Vulcho

02-22-2013, 01:38 PM

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 02:22 PM

Where did I say they are progressive? It's generally accepted that they are the most backward people in the region (probably because of their religion). But anyway, I hope they are getting civilized. And their birthrate seems to have fallen very quickly in Albania at least.

In Albania there is a high immigration rate,nothing to do with natural decrease.
Albanians will have a high birth rate for at least another 10 years.

Sadly,Albanians had the chance to become more numerous than the Greeks and dues become the largest nation on the balkans.
That moment was lost with the war in Kosovo and high immigration rate.

Albanians now being backward makes them the most vital element in the region.
Keeping alive old and real values.
Unlike the rotten nations around them.
And that kind of constellations will enable them to eat through the surrounding nations.

iNird

02-22-2013, 02:53 PM

In Albania there is a high immigration rate,nothing to do with natural decrease.
Albanians will have a high birth rate for at least another 10 years.

Sadly,Albanians had the chance to become more numerous than the Greeks and dues become the largest nation on the balkans.
That moment was lost with the war in Kosovo and high immigration rate.

Albanians now being backward makes them the most vital element in the region.
Keeping alive old and real values.
Unlike the rotten nations around them.
And that kind of constellations will enable them to eat through the surrounding nations.

High immigration rates, huge expulsions to Turkey and even if you want to go further back you can even say Greece,Italy during middle ages (whom are mainly assimilated today) and sometimes I wonder how there is even one Albanian state.

As for the last sentence, issue is even during it's independence more Albanians lived outside the state than within it. Albanians did not recently start to "eat through the surrounding nations" they have had a large presence in these outside areas to begin with.

Grizzly

02-22-2013, 02:53 PM

Well a high birthrate isn't necessarily a sign of a progressive society.

Is it? It's only in modern times where high birth rates is viewed as being barbaric and uncivilized. America during the 50-60's had some of the highest birthrates(Baby boomers) and some consider that the peak of US civilization. High birthrates will control the future and it only result in positives for the country. I'm not suggesting for birthrates to go as high as Africa or Middle Eastern but a stable birthrate is great and plus the balkans is generally unpopulated.

I bet every European country would be wishing to have a positive natural birthrate.. More economic power, less reliance on immigrants(not in the meantime), etc..

Geni

02-22-2013, 03:30 PM

iNird

02-22-2013, 03:54 PM

Albania here , Albania there, I've said 100 times,Albania has and there were no territorial claims against neighbors .. today Foreign Minister Panarit again said in a meeting with German homologue Westerwelle.Stop folklore and mental masturbation ..:confused:

Well officially no territorial claims.

According to 2012 Gallup Polls:

Albania - 75% pro Greater Albania
Kosova - 71% pro Greater Albania
Albanian areas in FYROM - 34.6% pro Greater Albania

Geni

02-22-2013, 04:29 PM

Man non offcially Serbia will up to Elbasan .. Greece also ..Albanian up Trieste..and Croatian bis Vlora.. THIS IS THE FOLKLOR...reality is different..

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 07:27 PM

Skopje City municipalities

Births - Deaths

.............................2012................. ..............2011........................2010

Skopje..................6.565 - 4.938.............. (6.515 - 4.676).......(6.703 - 4.649)

Aerodrom..............746 - 578....................(800 - 572)..............(779 - 556)
Butel....................456 - 330....................(517 - 282)..............(459 - 293)
Gazi Baba..............885 - 654...................(856 - 647)..............(884 - 627)
Gjorche Petrov.......455 - 400...................(440 - 415)...............(445 - 448)
Karposh................550 - 668...................(530 - 611)...............(632 - 682)
Kisela Voda............583 - 665..................(527 - 616)...............(578 - 584)
Saraj....................683 - 228..................(648 - 194)................(666 - 162)
Centar .................644 - 619..................(684 - 610)................(614 - 575)
Chair....................1.062 - 625...............(1053 - 550)...............(1.153 - 572)
Shuto Orizari..........501 - 171.................(460 - 179)............... (493 - 150)

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 09:38 PM

Not until some months from now...for 2012 we have only the rough date.

Here are the municipalities with the largest natural surplus in 2012

Saraj: +455
Chair: +437
Tetovo: +436
Studenichani: +412
Shuto Orizari: +330
Lipkovo: +263
Gazi Baba: +231
Struga: +205
Kumanovo: +202
Zhelino: +201
Arachinovo: +184
Strumica: +174
Aerodrom: +168
Gostivar: +160
Radovish: +158
Bogovinje: +149
Butel: +126
Debar: +113
Dolneni: +101

Bugarash 1893

02-22-2013, 09:52 PM

The process of albanization is the most strong in Chair municipality.
Macedonians not only have a natural decrease here but they also have a high immigration loss-something not comon for a urban capital city municipality,part of the city center.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Map_of_Skopje.svg/580px-Map_of_Skopje.svg.png

Migrated/Immigrated

2007-2011

Macedonians: 240 / 930 = -690
Albanians: 512 / 416 = +96

Births/Deaths 2008-2009-2010-2011

Macedonians

122-249 = -127
120-214 = -94
137-239 = -102
93/199 = -106

Albanians

729-231 = +498
712-235 = +477
836-269 = +567
781/268 = +513

According to the 2002 census Chair had:

Albanians = 36,921 (57.0%)
Macedonians = 15,628 (24.1%)
Turks = 4,500 (6.9%)
Roma = 3,083 (4.8%)
Bosniaks = 2,950 (4.6%)

I dont think there are more than 20% Macedonians in Chair now.

Prengs

02-23-2013, 12:35 PM

Bugarash, do you have data about:

- Čučer-Sandevo
- Sopiste
- Petrovec
- Zelenikovo

Those small municipalities are interesing because are very mixed with 3-4 ethnicities (slightly with macedonian majority)

iNird

02-23-2013, 04:17 PM

Guys you don't have to bother the self-appointed expert Bugaresh, you can find all the information here:

http://www.stat.gov.mk/PublikaciiPoOblasti_en.aspx

It's in English as well.

Dandelion

02-23-2013, 04:18 PM

From Hellene-Macedon to Slav-Macedon to Albanian-Macedon? :p Sounds awfully like a coocoo scenario in any regard.

iNird

02-23-2013, 04:26 PM

From Hellene-Macedon to Slav-Macedon to Albanian-Macedon? :p Sounds awfully like a coocoo scenario in any regard.

This thread is based on sensationalism. Don't take it for face value.

Bugarash 1893

02-23-2013, 05:04 PM

From Hellene-Macedon to Slav-Macedon to Albanian-Macedon? :p Sounds awfully like a coocoo scenario in any regard.

Thats what happens when a historical mistake happens,amateurs are born.

If Vardar Macedonia had a different historical path,if it was part of Bulgaria...
I bet Albanians wouldnt exist in Macedonia anymore.

Or they would have existed but they would play according to the rules.

Now they found these sad looking bunch of makedonoids and are having their way with them.

iNird

02-23-2013, 05:23 PM

Thats what happens when a historical mistake,amateurs are born.

If Vardar Macedonia had a different historical path,if it was part of Bulgaria.
I bet Albanians wouldnt exist in Macedonia anymore.

Eh the Yugoslavs tried to rid the Albanians from Yugoslavia and it didn't work.

Bulgaria wasn't able to rid itself of it's own minorities, how do you think they would fair with a larger amount? Granted the minority would be a bit more diluted but Bulgaria would have issues today, probably much more. Also Yugoslavia had agreements with Turkey in the 50's for the deportation of Albanians and other muslim groups to Turkey, not sure if Bulgaria had any similar agreements. You can assume these Albanians and muslim groups would remain in FYROM if they never went to Turkey.

Take the 1953 census for FYROM and 1956 census for Bulgaria, and combine both together. Macedonian/Bulgarians would be around 85% of the population and the rest would be around 15%. Take into account birth rates, and that number today would remain high, unless some deportations, forced assimilation or general migrations to the West (assuming Bulgaria would be in the EU with the combined population.)

Point being there are so many factors to consider. Bulgaria doesn't need any more minorities, they would be better off with only Macedonian/Bulgarian majority areas.

Bugarash 1893

02-23-2013, 05:25 PM

SILNI

02-23-2013, 05:27 PM

Eh the Yugoslavs tried to rid the Albanians from Yugoslavia and it didn't work.

They didn't.
Yugoslav communist party in belgrade even encouraged albanians to settle in kosovo.
It was communist policy , while every nationalistic government (even bulgarian) would have different/better approach

iNird

02-23-2013, 05:29 PM

They didn't.
Yugoslav communist party in belgrade even encouraged albanians to settle in kosovo.
It was communist policy , while every nationalistic government (even bulgarian) would have different/better approach

LULz.

Are there any statistics to prove this? Yugoslavs encouraged Slavs from Greece to settle in Macedonia and their figures are documented. Are there any statistics for the Albanian immigration to Kosovo?

iNird

02-23-2013, 05:32 PM

Bulgarian pay-back action towards the Albanians in Eastern Kosovo,after albanian kachak bands actions against macedonians/bulgarians in Western Macedonia.

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss353/KarahunovAerodrom/40bac2df1-1.jpg

Again Yugoslavs committed their fair amount of atrocities as well. Bulgaria would be a multiethnic state right now with FYROM.

SILNI

02-23-2013, 05:34 PM

LULz.

Are there any statistics to prove this? Yugoslavs encouraged Slavs from Greece to settle in Macedonia and their figures are documented. Are there any statistics for the Albanian immigration to Kosovo?
There are tons of evidence from kosovo communists officials and communist meetings in belgrade.
It was widely accepted by communists , you know that even two albanians were two times on the head of yugoslav presidentship after Tito died.

morski

02-23-2013, 05:35 PM

Again Yugoslavs committed their fair amount of atrocities as well. Bulgaria would be a multiethnic state right now with FYROM.

Bulgaria is an unitary nation state by constitution, the ethnic breakdown of the population is absolutely irrelevant.

Bugarash 1893

02-23-2013, 05:36 PM

Eh the Yugoslavs tried to rid the Albanians from Yugoslavia and it didn't work..

Man...you dont know the Bulgarian army back then.
Serbs called it unhuman.;)

Bulgaria wasn't able to rid itself of it's own minorities, how do you think they would fair with a larger amount? Granted the minority would be a bit more diluted but Bulgaria would have issues today, probably much more. Also Yugoslavia had agreements with Turkey in the 50's for the deportation of Albanians and other muslim groups to Turkey, not sure if Bulgaria had any similar agreements. You can assume these Albanians and muslim groups would remain in FYROM if they never went to Turkey.

Take the 1953 census for FYROM and 1956 census for Bulgaria, and combine both together. Macedonian/Bulgarians would be around 85% of the population and the rest would be around 15%. Take into account birth rates, and that number today would remain high, unless some deportations, forced assimilation or general migrations to the West (assuming Bulgaria would be in the EU with the combined population.)

Point being there are so many factors to consider. Bulgaria doesn't need any more minorities, they would be better off with only Macedonian/Bulgarian majority areas.

Communist Yugoslavia didint touch Albanians.
While communist Bulgaria was a totally different thing.

Thats one of the reason why Turks decrease from 30% to 8% the last 100 years.
Btw Albanians are not Turks they are a much much easier target.
And Kosovo had much more Albanians than Macedonia.

Just look what happened to Albanians in Greece.
The 150,000 Albanians back then would have been wiped out just like that from Macedonia.

And you think that if Macedonia and Bulgaria were one country today,that Albanians could pressure it like they are doing to Macedonia alone?:)

iNird

02-23-2013, 05:46 PM

There are tons of evidence from kosovo communists officials and communist meetings in belgrade.
It was widely accepted by communists , you know that even two albanians were two times on the head of yugoslav presidentship after Tito died.

So let's get this straight, they Yugoslavs encouraged immigration from Albania whom had a closed border and whose families were punished severely for any families members that escaped from Communist Albania, but Yugoslavia had agreements with Turkey to send Albanians and other groups out of Macedonia/Kosova (which are documented by the Yugoslavs) but the Albanian immigration numbers are not documented. Right.

:Coffee:

iNird

02-23-2013, 06:00 PM

Man...you dont know the Bulgarian army back then.
Serbs called it unhuman.;)

Communist Yugoslavia didint touch Albanians.
While communist Bulgaria was a totally different thing.

Thats one of the reason why Turks decrease from 30% to 8% the last 100 years.
Btw Albanians are not Turks they are a much much easier target.
And Kosovo had much more Albanians than Macedonia.

Just look what happened to Albanians in Greece.
The 150,000 Albanians back then would have been wiped out just like that from Macedonia.

And you think that if Macedonia and Bulgaria were one country today,that Albanians could pressure it like they are doing to Macedonia alone?:)

Eh I'm doing a project and studying for other exams otherwise I would give you a better response. The idea that Albanians lived great in Yugoslavia is not correct, their status did get better sometime in the late 60's or 70s but situation detoriated when Milosovic came into power in Kosovo atleast. Early Yugoslav policies included punishing any pro-Albanian activities, attempts to assimilate Albanians in the Turkish and even Slavic ethnos, encouraging Albanians to emigrate to Turkey and so forth. To use Macedonia for example, many Albanians there were pressured to leave in Bitola/Manastir from the yugoslavs.

Arvanites in Greece fought for Greek independence and share a common religion with them, their assimilation policies were more successful because of this. Unless you are referring to the Chams.

And you are right that Albanians would not be as powerful (though in reality even today they are not that powerful) in a bigger Bulgarian state because their numbers would be diluted. But Bulgaria as a whole would suffer from a larger amount of minorities in the country.

Skerdilaid

02-23-2013, 06:06 PM

Skerdilaid

02-23-2013, 06:31 PM

Bulgarian pay-back action towards the Albanians in Eastern Kosovo,after albanian kachak bands actions against macedonians/bulgarians in Western Macedonia.

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss353/KarahunovAerodrom/40bac2df1-1.jpg

Great people the kacaks were, and Bugarash make no mistake the kacakas that you see hanged wasted a lot of slavs that maruded through our lands.

mandi

02-23-2013, 06:43 PM

Thats what happens when a historical mistake happens,amateurs are born.

If Vardar Macedonia had a different historical path,if it was part of Bulgaria...
I bet Albanians wouldnt exist in Macedonia anymore.

Or they would have existed but they would play according to the rules.

Now they found these sad looking bunch of makedonoids and are having their way with them.
Of course..imagine a country with 8-9 million, the population that bulgaria would have in 50-60-es together with Macedonia and with 200 thousand Albanians...normally it would be easy, but things cant go always sadly for Albanians, and so the second balkan war was a benediction for Albanians, because they remained almost in one country..in Serbia, after the loosing of war from Bulgaria.
I think Bulgarians have been strong with army but not with diplomacy, they havent known how to act in their history, and selecting the wrong way have lost much.

The Illyrian Warrior

02-23-2013, 07:45 PM

Bugarash 1893

02-23-2013, 11:38 PM

Guys you don't have to bother the self-appointed expert Bugaresh, you can find all the information here:

http://www.stat.gov.mk/PublikaciiPoOblasti_en.aspx

It's in English as well.

Son,again you are underestimating my source reserves.
Not only that you are underestimating my source reserves but you are questioning my demographic skills and analyses.

Do you have the info on the births since 2005?
Do you have the info on the structure of the student population in primary and high schools?
Do you have the info from the local elections?
Do you have the entire census results from all censuses from all countries in the region?
Know how to make an analyse by using the CBR,CDR and fertility rate?

Im telling you I know it and have it all,I even have the contact number from people in the statistical institute!

Son,you dont want to fuck and question my sources and my knowledge on this.
Im a fu$%#@* enciklopedia that walks when it comes to demographic issues.
This is after all a more amateur thread than an expert one,dont see anyone that is equipped enough to go into an debate with me.Thats why I dont have the competition instinct going right now...

But again,you never question my capacity!

iNird

02-24-2013, 01:09 AM

Son,again you are underestimating my source reserves.
Not only that you are underestimating my source reserves but you are questioning my demographic skills and analyses.

Do you have the info on the births since 2005?
Do you have the info on the structure of the student population in primary and high schools?
Do you have the info from the local elections?
Do you have the entire census results from all censuses from all countries in the region?
Know how to make an analyse by using the CBR,CDR and fertility rate?

Im telling you I know it and have it all,I even have the contact number from people in the statistical institute!

Son,you dont want to fuck and question my sources and my knowledge on this.
Im a fu$%#@* enciklopedia that walks when it comes to demographic issues.
This is after all a more amateur thread than an expert one,dont see anyone that is equipped enough to go into an debate with me.Thats why I dont have the competition instinct going right now...

But again,you never question my capacity!

LOL

iNird

02-24-2013, 01:27 AM

Not only that you are underestimating my source reserves but you are questioning my demographic skills and analyses.

What skills are you speaking of? Taking public information from the government website and posting a map of the area constitutes as skills and analyses? Well I guess it is to some degree, and it might even be time consuming, but don't go overboard. I appreciate your efforts nonetheless.

Do you have the info on the births since 2005?

Information can be found here:

http://makstat.stat.gov.mk/pxweb2007bazi/Database/Statistics%20by%20subject/Population/Vital%20Statistics/Vital%20Statistics.asp

Do you have the info on the structure of the student population in primary and high schools?

Information can be found here:

http://www.stat.gov.mk/Publikacii/2.4.12.06.pdf

Do you have the info from the local elections?

Which information are you referring to ?

Do you have the entire census results from all censuses from all countries in the region?

Information can be found here:

http://www.stat.gov.mk/Publikacii/knigaXIII.pdf

Know how to make an analyse by using the CBR,CDR and fertility rate?

Serious? These are just simple formulas and you plug in the numbers. This isn't rocket science Bugaresh. Anyone with basic math could calculate these results. I have done my own "analyses" in this thread as well.

Im telling you I know it and have it all,I even have the contact number from people in the statistical institute!

I have contacts as well because all the contact information is listed most publications.

Take for example this publication:

http://www.stat.gov.mk/PrikaziSoopstenie_en.aspx?rbrtxt=3

For further information, please contact:

Lefterija Kalevska ; Sanja Stojanovska

phone: +389 2 3295 858

e-mail: lefterija.kalevska@stat.gov.mk sanja.stojanovska@stat.gov.mk

Son,you dont want to fuck and question my sources and my knowledge on this.
Im a fu$%#@* enciklopedia that walks when it comes to demographic issues.
This is after all a more amateur thread than an expert one,dont see anyone that is equipped enough to go into an debate with me.Thats why I dont have the competition instinct going right now...

But again,you never question my capacity!

LOL

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 01:33 AM

ok inird you are not that bad ass :D :D

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 01:42 AM

Thats what happens when a historical mistake happens,amateurs are born.

If Vardar Macedonia had a different historical path,if it was part of Bulgaria...
I bet Albanians wouldnt exist in Macedonia anymore.

Or they would have existed but they would play according to the rules.

Now they found these sad looking bunch of makedonoids and are having their way with them.

Bulgaria never fought about Macedonia, they just give it up very easy and never claimed that as its own territory and people. Even now Bulgaria is not influential at all compared to Serbia. So those historical paths you are talking about are illusions and reality is different.

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 02:18 AM

Bulgaria never fought about Macedonia, they just give it up very easy and never claimed that as its own territory and people.

Do you expect me to even debate with you on this?:picard1:

Even now Bulgaria is not influential at all compared to Serbia. So those historical paths you are talking about are illusions and reality is different.

Two facts:

Almost 100,000 bulgarian citizenship holders currently in Macedonia.
Bulgaria: EU and NATO member.

Bulgaria walks over Serbia as far as who holds more instruments for influence.

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 02:38 AM

What skills are you speaking of? Taking public information from the government website and posting a map of the area constitutes as skills and analyses? Well I guess it is to some degree, and it might even be time consuming, but don't go overboard. I appreciate your efforts nonetheless.

Taking all that stats and knowing whats a low,normal and high level of CBR,CDR,number of students etc etc etc and with that determining the size of an population is something that not everybody can do.

90% of people I have talked to on this issue dont even know the basic things.

Even saw media,leading TV stations and newspapers making naive miskates when they focus on a demographic issue.

Serious? These are just simple formulas and you plug in the numbers. This isn't rocket science Bugaresh. Anyone with basic math could calculate these results. I have done my own "analyses" in this thread as well.

Not calculate but use them to make an analyse!
To use them,to put them together,to use math pieces so you can form an entire structure...a puzzle!
Not everyone can put the fucking rubik cube together!

http://www.bagofnothing.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/super-mario-rubiks-cube.jpg

I have contacts as well because all the contact information is listed most publications.

Take for example this publication:

http://www.stat.gov.mk/PrikaziSoopstenie_en.aspx?rbrtxt=3

For further information, please contact:

Lefterija Kalevska ; Sanja Stojanovska

phone: +389 2 3295 858

e-mail: lefterija.kalevska@stat.gov.mk sanja.stojanovska@stat.gov.mk

Those contacts are as lame as someone looking at Wikipedia and using it as the main source of information.
I did use the contacts from the statistical office you posted above-back in the eary early days,when I just started to get interested in demographics.

Those contacts are there but dont guarantee that you will get the needed info,anything special,before the masses get it.
So no,Those are not the contacts I had in mind.

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 02:44 AM

Births/Deaths Total

...........................2012................... .........2011......................2010

Aracinovo ............ 242 - 58 .....................(215 - 58) ............(260 - 47)
Berovo ................108 - 180 .....................(97 - 146) .......... (117 - 163)
Bitolj .................. 829 - 1.267 ..................(880 - 1.177) ...... (976 - 1.171)
Bogdanci ..............60 - 121 ......................(59 - 108) ........... (65 - 94)
Bogovinje ............ 346 - 197 .................... (331 - 198) ......... (345 - 198)
Bosilovo .............. 156 - 147 .....................(139 - 155) .......... (166 - 143)
Brvenica ...............174 - 144 .....................(186 - 165) .......... (185 - 131)
Valandovo .............121 - 127 .....................(116 - 115) .......... (143 - 118)
Vasilevo ................171 - 96 .......................(171 - 120) ......... (196 - 109)
Vevcan ................. 24 - 23 .........................(22 - 29) ............. (23 - 20)
Veles ................. 633 - 631 ......................(570 - 582) ...........(632 - 563)
Vinica ................. 193 - 199 .......................(163 - 171) .......... (196 - 175)
Vraneshtica ...........13 - 22 ......................... (11 - 29) .............(10 - 34)
Vrapcishte ........... 276 - 186 .......................(309 - 198) .......... (300 - 180)
Gevgelija ............. 206 - 261 ...................... (183 - 244) ......... (235 - 246)
Gostivar ...............752 - 592 ...................... (826 - 641) ......... (826 - 635)
Gradsko .................43 - 40 ..........................(34 - 47) ............ (45 - 48)
Debar ................. 245 - 132 ....................... (244 - 115) ......... (265 - 110)
Debarca ................41 - 107 ....................... (31 - 129) ........... (33 - 116)
Delchevo .............. 152 - 193 .......................(145 - 178) ...........(158 - 191)
Demir Kapija ...........35 - 37 ...........................(41 - 51) ............. (43 - 56)
Demir Hisar ............57 - 146 .........................(78 - 134) ........... (65 - 145)

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 02:49 AM

Dojran . . . . . . . 36 - 31 .............. (26 - 29) ............... (33 - 46)
Dolneni . . . . . . .256 - 150 .............(242 - 153) ........... (213 - 131)
Drugovo . . . . . . 21 - 55 .................(24 - 44) ............. (30 - 47)
Zhelino . . . . . . .381 - 180 ..............(362 - 144) ........... (368 - 125)
Zajaz . . . . . . . . 60 - 57 .................(72 - 74) .............. (86 - 84)
Zelenikovo . . . . .75 - 43 .................(74 - 37) .............. (74 - 38)
Zrnovci . . . . . . .26 - 49 .................(20 - 38) .............. (26 - 36)
Ilinden . . . . . . .182 - 146 ..............(174 - 136) ............ (194 - 135)
Jagunovci . . . . .108 - 109 ..............(109 - 115) ............. (132 - 92)
Kavadarci . . . . .417 - 434 ..............(369 - 383) ............. (377 - 364)
Karbinci . . . . . . .64 - 61 ..................(51 - 72) ............... (62 - 53)
Kicevo . . . . . . .303 - 279 ..............(305 - 223) ............. (310 - 251)
Konche . . . . . . . .49 - 33 ................ (52 - 28) ............... (49 - 34)
Kocani . . . . . . .351 - 378 ..............(305 - 381) ............. (384 - 360)
Kratovo . . . . . . .79 - 112 ..............(78 - 103) ............... (77 - 129)
KrivaPalanka . . .191 - 209 ..............(194 - 209) .............. (236 - 219)
Krivogashtani . . .54 - 98 ................(33 - 90) ................ (57 - 110)
Krushevo . . . . . 109 - 138 .............(97 - 110) .............. (112 - 119)
Kumanovo . . . . 1296 - 1094 .........(1246 - 1072) ..........(1355 - 1000)
Lipkovo . . . . . . 433 - 170 ..............(344 - 158) ............. (380 - 149)
Lozovo . . . . . . . 28 - 34 .................(25 - 33) ............... (32 - 25)
Mavrovo . . . . . . 81 - 78 .................(82 - 58) .............. (98 - 55)
Mak. Kamenica . . 63 - 62 .................(63 - 71) .............. (72 - 64)
Makedonski Brod ...46 - 101 ......(67 - 96) ....................... (65 - 99)

iNird

02-24-2013, 02:50 AM

http://www.bagofnothing.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/super-mario-rubiks-cube.jpg

Yes you are right bugaresh, my simple siptar mind can not comprehend your expert methods. One day I hope to solve the FYROM demographics rubiks cube. One day......

:(

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 02:52 AM

Mogila . . . . . . . . 69 - 84 ................(67 - 116) .............. (66 - 96)
Negotino . . . . . . 220 - 207 .............(166 - 169) ............ (194 - 179)
Novaci . . . . . . . . 26 - 74 ................(35 - 79) ............... (35 - 67)
Novo Selo . . . . . . 92 - 135 ..............(89 - 119) ............. (88 - 135)
Oslomej . . . . . . . .43 - 60 ............... (57 - 57) ............... (50 - 60)
Ohrid . . . . . . . . . 516 - 603 ............(530 - 589) ............ (572 - 536)
Petrovec . . . . . . 146 - 73 ...............(141 - 67) .............. (161 - 79)
Pehcevo . . . . . . . 28 - 69 ............... (37 - 77) ................ (40 - 78)
Plasnica . . . . . . . .68 - 40................ (57 - 26) ................ (61 - 40)
Prilep . . . . . . . . . 871 - 890 .............(736 - 942) ............ (864 - 902)
Probishtip . . . . . . .133 - 151 ............(120 - 154) ............ (137 - 167)
Radovish . . . . . . . 384 - 226 ............(315 - 277) ............ (369 - 273)
Rankovce . . . . . . 36 - 64 .................(43 - 51) ............... (48 - 54)
Resen . . . . . . . . 148 - 230 ..............(141 - 210) ........... (143 - 244)
Rosoman . . . . . . .28 - 64 .................(45 - 61) ............... (54 - 61)
Sveti Nikole . . . . 158 - 203 ...............(149 - 182) .......... (172 - 224)
Sopishte . . . . . . .91 - 58 ..................(94 - 48) .............. (86 - 39)
S. Nagoricane . . . 45 - 115 ................(36 - 96) ............... (34 - 102)
Struga . . . . . . . .696 - 491 ..............(697 - 449) ........... (695 - 489)
Strumica . . . . . . 729 - 555 ..............(655 - 544) ............ (711 - 530)
Studenicane . . . . 521 - 109 ..............(434 - 109) ........... (473 - 91)
Tearce . . . . . . . 241 - 179 ...............(250 - 184) ........... (217 - 177)
Tetovo. . . . . . . .1153 - 717 ............(1142 - 713) .......... (1207 - 659)
Centar Zhupa . . . 62 - 30 ..................(70 - 38) .............. (68 - 32)
Cashka . . . . . . . 173 - 98 ................(151 - 92) ............. (172 - 84)
Ceshinovo . . . . . . 50 - 80 .................(61 - 97) ............. (49 - 103)
Cucer Sandevo . . . 149 - 77 ...............(161 - 74) ............. (184 - 75)
Shtip . . . . . . . . .502 - 511 .............(505 - 522) ............ (537 - 430)

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 02:57 AM

Municipalities with the largest natural loss in 2012

Bitola: -438
Karposh: -118
Demir Hisar: -89
Ohrid: -87
Resen: -82
Kisela Voda: -82

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 04:27 AM

Movment of Serbia's age structure

http://media.popis2011.stat.rs/2012/piramide/piramide2.gif

mandi

02-24-2013, 06:11 AM

Movment of Serbia's age structure

http://media.popis2011.stat.rs/2012/piramide/piramide2.gif
Bugarash you are the most able here in this subject of demography, because is not an easy job to calculate all this and to take out conclusions.
So continue in this way, because such analysys i have not found even in great medium of macedonia, in such circumstantially way.

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 12:55 PM

Do you expect me to even debate with you on this?:picard1:

Two facts:

Almost 100,000 bulgarian citizenship holders currently in Macedonia.
Bulgaria: EU and NATO member.

Bulgaria walks over Serbia as far as who holds more instruments for influence.

Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember to have read that Bulgaria have ever fought with SKS kingdom about macedonia, After 2WW Bulgaria had no claims about Macedonia, even it wasnt powerful as Jugoslavia they should have done it publicly so the poeple wouldnt forget their identity. I saw in one tv emission here, and its logically to ask, if Macedonia was Bulgaria why they gave up so easy?!

Onur

02-24-2013, 01:13 PM

Bulgaria never fought about Macedonia, they just give it up very easy and never claimed that as its own territory and people.
Thats true.

I got harshly attacked when i reminded this to the Bulgarian forumers here but this is the fact. Bulgarian army started Balkan wars by trying to invade Istanbul according to the desires of Moscow but they left Macedonia to the mercy of Serbs and Greeks. They didn't do anything for getting Macedonia. British empire reserved Aegean side for the Greeks but they could have try to get Vardar section but they left Vardar to the Serbs and fully concentrated to attacking Turkey from eastern Thrace but failed in that too.

Let alone Bulgarian state, even the pro-Bulgarian Macedonians didn't do anything about that during the Balkan wars. The Macedonian gangs (15.000-20.000 armed men) joined to Bulgarian army and gone to eastern Thrace while their kinsmen getting ass raped by Greek and Serbian armies in Macedonia.

Archduke

02-24-2013, 01:20 PM

alb0zfinest

02-24-2013, 02:00 PM

Edit

morski

02-24-2013, 03:03 PM

Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember to have read that Bulgaria have ever fought with SKS kingdom about macedonia, After 2WW Bulgaria had no claims about Macedonia, even it wasnt powerful as Jugoslavia they should have done it publicly so the poeple wouldnt forget their identity. I saw in one tv emission here, and its logically to ask, if Macedonia was Bulgaria why they gave up so easy?!

Bulgaria fought exactly three (3) wars for Macedonia - Second Balkan War, WWI, WWII - all lost. The decision to enter these wars was each time heavily influenced by Bulgaria's very own rather powerful politically Macedonian diaspora.

After WWII Bulgaria was no longer a sovereign nation, it was occupied by the Red Army and when the communists(internationalists by definition) seized power the state kept quiet about Macedonia for the next four and a half decades. In today's world a military resolution to the Macedonian problem in Bulgaria is unacceptable.

One thing should be crystal clear though - Nothing is forgotten, nothing is forgiven! Our claim that Macedonia is a Bulgarian land, that the Macedonian nation and language are a product of Serbian ethno-engineering and are based on the Bulgarian ones will remain unchanged no matter what.

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 03:25 PM

Bulgaria fought exactly three (3) wars for Macedonia - Second Balkan War, WWI, WWII - all lost. The decision to enter these wars was each time heavily influenced by Bulgaria's very own rather powerful politically Macedonian diaspora.

After WWII Bulgaria was no longer a sovereign nation, it was occupied by the Red Army and when the communists(internationalists by definition) seized power the state kept quiet about Macedonia for the next four and a half decades. In today's world a military resolution to the Macedonian problem in Bulgaria is unacceptable.

One thing should be crystal clear though - Nothing is forgotten, nothing is forgiven! Our claim that Macedonia is a Bulgarian land, that the Macedonian nation and language are a product of Serbian ethno-engineering and are based on the Bulgarian ones will remain unchanged no matter what.
Im not denying those 3 wars that you are saying for which I never heard of their importance, and I dont reject bulgarian national identity of macedonians but still smthg strange which I cant understand, its not that simply the idea that serbians 'changed' national identity of makos and its not that easy to accpet the idea that Bulgaria totally lost their influence about their people in Macedonia and they just stayed and watched how they are becoming different nation.
Even Albania which was smaller and not as powerfull than bulgaria kept remindin kosovar albanians that we are one nation, albos from Jugo werent allowed even to look in direction of Albania but they still kept their nationalism in those hard conditions,

Your historical mistake is made and damage is done, I live here and I will never believe that majority of makos will ever become bulgarian again.

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 03:26 PM

...

morski

02-24-2013, 03:37 PM

Im not denying those 3 wars that you are saying for which I never heard of their importance, and I dont reject bulgarian national identity of macedonians but still smthg strange which I cant understand, its not that simply the idea that serbians 'changed' national identity of makos and its not that easy to accpet the idea that Bulgaria totally lost their influence about their people in Macedonia and they just stayed and watched how they are becoming different nation.
Even Albania which was smaller and not as powerfull than bulgaria kept remindin kosovar albanians that we are one nation, albos from Jugo werent allowed even to look in direction of Albania but they still kept their nationalism in those hard conditions,

Your historical mistake is made and damage is done, I live here and I will never believe that majority of makos will ever become bulgarian again.

The process of divergence was long and involved several generations, it wasn't as abrupt as you imagine it. Don't forget that Vardar Macedonia is in Serbian control since 1912. What happened is that the state disrupted the dialogue between the generations, which prevented the natural inheritance of identity from father to son.

You can't compare Albanians to Bulgarians, Albos are totally different, while Bulgarians and Serbs are basically cousins, assimilation is much easier(as we saw in the Pomoravie with the Torlaks).

Bottom line is that Macedonism is based and depends entirely on Bulgarophobia, which their state continues to promote to this very day. Remove Bulgarophobia from the equation and it'll collapse.

iNird

02-24-2013, 03:48 PM

Ye Serbia is facing is huge demographic crisis. This article claims:

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/articles/2011/02/14/reportage-01

Serbia ranks fourth in the world in terms of population over the age of 65 -- about 1.2 million people, fully one sixth of Serbia's population.

Yikes.

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 04:01 PM

The process of divergence was long and involved several generations, it wasn't as abrupt as you imagine it. Don't forget that Vardar Macedonia is in Serbian control since 1912. What happened is that the state disrupted the dialogue between the generations, which prevented the natural inheritance of identity from father to son.

You can't compare Albanians to Bulgarians, Albos are totally different, while Bulgarians and Serbs are basically cousins, assimilation is much easier(as we saw in the Pomoravie with the Torlaks).

Bottom line is that Macedonism is based and depends entirely on Bulgarophobia, which their state continues to promote to this very day. Remove Bulgarophobia from the equation and it'll collapse.
Where were you to complain in 45s when servs for 1 decade changed your history and Goce Delcev or Samoil became macedonians in history books, you didnt do that much for macedonians here when they needed your help but you just sitted and watched how their national identity is changing. Sorry mate but you have to be self critical here.

You have to say it clearly and loudly what the truth is or even to apologize them, your prime minister was here a week ago and it gave the impression that indirectly you accept macedonism, while the only reason why he was invited is EU to see that Macedonia have great relations with her neighbors.

Archduke

02-24-2013, 04:19 PM

Where were you to complain in 45s when servs for 1 decade changed your history and Goce Delcev or Samoil became macedonians in history books, you didnt do that much for macedonians here when they needed your help but you just sitted and watched how their national identity is changing. Sorry mate but you have to be self critical here.

Bulgarian commies have a big role of making the Macedonian nation.

People in Pirin Macedonia (Blagoevgrad province) were forced to be called "Macedonian" in 1946. The ones who refused were send to Belene camp.

We can only thank God that at the same time the Soviet union abandoned all relations with Yugoslavia.

morski

02-24-2013, 04:20 PM

Where were you to complain in 45s when servs for 1 decade changed your history and Goce Delcev or Samoil became macedonians in history books, you didnt do that much for macedonians here when they needed your help but you just sitted and watched how their national identity is changing. Sorry mate but you have to be self critical here.

You have to say it clearly and loudly what the truth is or even to apologize them, your prime minister was here a week ago and it gave the impression that indirectly you accept macedonism, while the only reason why he was invited is EU to see that Macedonia have great relations with her neighbors.

Occupied by the Soviet Army! Already told you that.

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 04:36 PM

Bulgarian commies have a big role of making the Macedonian nation.

People in Pirin Macedonia (Blagoevgrad province) were forced to be called "Macedonian" in 1946. The ones who refused were send to Belene camp.

We can only thank God that at the same time the Soviet union abandoned all relations with Yugoslavia.

Jugoslav - Russian relationship were just in short period compared with Bulgaria, even Albania in that period have forbidden the albanian nationality of kosovars and all of those Jugo albos who escaped in Albania were jailed. After jugoslav-russian relations were over, you could have used your Russian power for your interests,remaining that silent is a lil bit unjustified, thats my oppinion.

Alexandros

02-24-2013, 04:40 PM

Bulgarian commies have a big role of making the Macedonian nation.

People in Pirin Macedonia (Blagoevgrad province) were forced to be called "Macedonian" in 1946. The ones who refused were send to Belene camp.

We can only thank God that at the same time the Soviet union abandoned all relations with Yugoslavia.

Incredible ... and I think that the Serbs ~50 years before where the greatest supporters of Macedonism ... for example Jovan Cvijic. I never thought that even Bulgarian communies also support Macedonism.
Interesting!

Macedonian

morski

02-24-2013, 04:47 PM

Incredible ... and I think that the Serbs ~50 years before where the greatest supporters of Macedonism ... for example Jovan Cvijic. I never thought that even Bulgarian communies also support Macedonism.
Interesting!

Macedonian

Macedonism was officially on the agenda of the Comintern/Cominformbureau since the 30s. There were also projects for Shop, Thracian and Dobrudzhanian nations. The Bulgarian nation was to be scrapped.

Vulcho

02-24-2013, 05:03 PM

There wasn't much to be done regarding Macedonia after WWII. After all the entire world (both east and west) supported Macedonism. Today, the climate is much more neutral and objective, and the international opinion is turning away from them.

Grizzly

02-24-2013, 05:39 PM

Lets get back to the topic of the thread, Demographics!

SILNI

02-24-2013, 06:24 PM

Incredible ... and I think that the Serbs ~50 years before where the greatest supporters of Macedonism ...
What? You know before WW1 macedonia was part of serbia. It is highly illogical to assume that we supported creation of macedonian nation.

morski

02-24-2013, 06:32 PM

Another early recorded use of the term "Macedonism" is found in a report by the Serbian politician Stojan Novaković from 1887. He proposed to employ the macedonistic ideology as a means to counteract the Bulgarian influence in Macedonia, thereby promoting Serbian interests in the region.[76] Novaković's diplomatic activity in Istanbul and St. Petersburg played significant role for the realization of his ideas, especially through the “Association of Serbo-Macedonians” formed by him in Istanbul and through his support for the Macedonian Scientific and Literary Society in St. Petersburg.[77] The geopolitics of the Serbs evidently played the crucial role in the ethnogenosis by promoting a separate Macedonian consciousness at the expense of the Bulgarians. In 1888 the Macedono-Bulgarian ethnographer Kuzman Shapkarev noted as result from this activity that a strange, ancient ethnonym: "Macedonci" (Macedonians) was imposed 10–15 years ago by some weird intellectuals, introduced probably with a "cunning aim" to replace the traditional one: "Bugari" (Bulgarians).[78]

Next proponents of this ideas were two other Serbian scholars, the geographer Jovan Cvijić[79] and the linguist Aleksandar Belić.[80] They claimed the Slavs of Macedonia were "Macedonian Slavs", an amorphous Slavic mass that was neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian. Cvijić further argued that the traditional ethnonym Bugari (Bulgarians) used by the Slavic population of Macedonia to refer to themselves actually meant only rayah, and in no case affiliations to the Bulgarian ethnicity. In his ethnographic studies of the Balkan Slavs, Cvijic devised a "Central Type" (Slav Macedonians and Torlaks), dissimilar at the same time to the "Dinaric Type" (the principal "Serb" ethnographic variant) and the "East Balkan Type" (representing the Bulgarians, but excluding even Western Bulgaria). The true Bulgarians belonged only to the "East Balkan Type" and were a mixture of Slavs, "Turanian" groups (Bulgars, Cumans, and Turks) and Vlachs, and as such, were different from the other South Slavs in their ethnic composition. More important, their national character was decidedly un-Slavic. Bulgarians were industrious and coarse. They were a people without imagination and therefore necessarily without art and culture. This caricature of Bulgarians permitted their clear differentiation from the "Central Type," within which Cvijic included Macedonian Slavs, western Bulgarians (Shopi), and Torlaks, a type that was eminently Slavic (i.e. old-Serbian) and therefore non-Bulgarian. Nowadays, this outdated Serbian views have been propagandized by some contemporary Macedonian scholars and politicians, as bad remake of this racial pseudo-science.

Some panslavic ideologist in Russia, former supporter of Greater Bulgaria, also adopted this ideas as opposing Bulgaria's Russophobic policy at the beginning of 20th century, as for example Alexandr Rittikh[81] and Aleksandr Amfiteatrov. At the beginning of the 20th century, the continued Serbian propaganda efforts had managed to firmly entrench the concept of the Macedonian Slavs in European public opinion and the name was used almost as frequently as Bulgarians. Simultaneously the proponents of the Greek Struggle for Macedonia as Germanos Karavangelis openly popularized the Hellenic idea about a direct link between the local Slavs and the ancient Macedonians.[82] Nevertheless in 1914 the Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs report states that the Serbs and Greeks classified the Slavs of Macedonia as a distinct ethnic group "Macedonians Slavs" for political purposes and to conceal the existence of Bulgarians in the area.[83] However after the Balkan Wars (1912–1913) Ottoman Macedonia was mostly divided between Greece and Serbia, which had as result processes of Hellenisation, respectively Serbianisation of the Slavic population and led in general to a ceasing the use of this term in both countries.

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 06:33 PM

morski

02-24-2013, 06:39 PM

In a letter from December 4, 1887, Prof. Stoyan Novakovic writes to the Ministry of Education of the Kingdom of Serbia:..."Since Bulgarianism, as we all very well know, has deep roots in Macedonia, I think that itis impossible to exterminate it if we oppose to it the Serbian idea alone. I doubt that this ideawill be able to suppress the Bulgarian idea as long as it is a mere confrontation. Therefore, wewould greatly profit from an ally, sharply confronted with Bulgarianism, and including initself elements that would attract the people and which would be intimate to his feelings - it isprecisely they that will split it from Bulgarianism. I see "Macedonism" as such an ally...

(Kl.Djambazovski, "Kulturno-opshtestvenite vrski na Makedoncite so Srbija vo tekot na XIXvek.", Skopie, 1960 g., str. 178)

The above writings of Prof. Stoyan Novakovic simply mean that:
1. There are practically no Serbian ethnic roots in the region of Macedonia, due to which theSerbian idea is barren.
2. The objective is to conquer and assimilate Macedonia which is deffinitely an overtChauvinism on the part of Serbia. In fact these are the ideas of Garasanin.
3. The greatest obstacle is Bulgarian ethnical consciousness of the population in Macedonia.
4. To achieve the goals of Serbian Chauvinism a cancerous formation whithin the Bulgarianconsciousness of the people of Macedonia must be implanted.This mental cancer of national consciousness is defined by Novakovic in 1887 as"Macedonism"!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30570205/The-Creators-of-Macedonism

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 06:39 PM

Thats true.

I got harshly attacked when i reminded this to the Bulgarian forumers here but this is the fact. Bulgarian army started Balkan wars by trying to invade Istanbul according to the desires of Moscow but they left Macedonia to the mercy of Serbs and Greeks. They didn't do anything for getting Macedonia. British empire reserved Aegean side for the Greeks but they could have try to get Vardar section but they left Vardar to the Serbs and fully concentrated to attacking Turkey from eastern Thrace but failed in that too.

Let alone Bulgarian state, even the pro-Bulgarian Macedonians didn't do anything about that during the Balkan wars. The Macedonian gangs (15.000-20.000 armed men) joined to Bulgarian army and gone to eastern Thrace while their kinsmen getting ass raped by Greek and Serbian armies in Macedonia.

Again,speaking from your ass.

We didint know that Serbs would turn out to be sneaks and step on the prewar treaty.
Just as we didint expect a back stabbing attack from Turkey.

The prewar treaty with the Serbs secured us everything east of the line Kriva Palanka-Ohrid.
Leaving a huge majority of Macedonian Bulgarians from Vardar Macedonia within bulgarian borders.

While the other part (Contested Regions) would remain under arbitration of the russian emperor...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Balkan_contested_1914.jpg

The only miskate was made by the king who pushed on taking Istanbul dues losing time and important bulgarian populated areas in Aegean Macedonia to the Greeks,including Solun/Thessaloniki,the bulgarian army arriving in the city just a few hours after the Greeks.

morski

02-24-2013, 06:44 PM

Don Arb

02-24-2013, 07:03 PM

:picard1:

You havent got a clue what the Serbs and Greeks were doing to the population.
Just as you dont have an idea about the activities of VMRO.
Just like you have no idea of the military history of Bulgaria.
Just as you have no idea about the role of the bulgarian communists.

So be a little more specific,and mark out what were we supposed to do more than what we were already doing.
:picard1:

Lol you self proclaimed genius do I need to have a knowledge about bulgarian military or other crap things you have mentioned who doesnt have to do nothing with the logical question I've asked.

mandi

02-24-2013, 07:15 PM

Again,speaking from your ass.

We didint know that Serbs would turn out to be sneaks and step on the prewar treaty.
Just as we didint expect a back stabbing attack from Turkey.

The prewar treaty with the Serbs secured us everything east of the line Kriva Palanka-Ohrid.
Leaving a huge majority of Macedonian Bulgarians from Vardar Macedonia within bulgarian borders.

While the other part (Contested Regions) would remain under arbitration of the russian emperor...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Balkan_contested_1914.jpg

The only miskate was made by the king who pushed on taking Istanbul dues losing time and important bulgarian populated areas in Aegean Macedonia to the Greeks,including Solun/Thessaloniki,the bulgarian army arriving in the city just a few hours after the Greeks.
The treaty was not respected by the serbs, because serbs lost the right to posses parts of adriatical seaside in Albania, because serbs knew that Albania would become an indipendent state known internationally from great powers, and so serbs wanted to compensate this lost aim with macedonian lands, which they had occupated during first war with ottomans in 1912-1913
I said, Bulgarians did the lion part in balkanic war, but they didnt profit what they deserved...bulgarians trusted a lot to their allies and this was their mistake...would be better for all if Bulgaria had done a pact with ottomans, and not trust the serbs and greeks and enter in war...and also now i think the same..we should do an alliance together...turks, bulgarians and albanians

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 08:23 PM

:picard1:

Lol you self proclaimed genius do I need to have a knowledge about bulgarian military or other crap things you have mentioned who doesnt have to do nothing with the logical question I've asked.

If you knew bulgarian military history,you will known that Macedonia costed Bulgaria two national catastrophes.
A segment of which was the lost of the outlet to the warm open waters of the Aegean-something that could have saved us from communism.

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 08:28 PM

This image reflects the situation in the bulgarian public between the two balkan wars,as Bulgaria's clash with the former allies is just a matter of time.

Bulgarian lion,killing the tiger-Turkey while the pig-Serbia and the monkey-Greece run away.

http://www.balkanantiques.com/items/46f6527e_T_07.jpg

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 11:36 PM

Ye Serbia is facing is huge demographic crisis. This article claims:

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/articles/2011/02/14/reportage-01

Yikes.

You know...demographics isnt everything,it couldnt even matter at all...
Look at Germany,it has the worst CBR in the world,second oldest population.

Or look at Japan,with the oldest population in the world.

The problem is if you have abroken country alongside with a demographic crisis.

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 11:38 PM

Bugarash you are the most able here in this subject of demography, because is not an easy job to calculate all this and to take out conclusions.
So continue in this way, because such analysys i have not found even in great medium of macedonia, in such circumstantially way.

Finnaly.:thumb001:

Bugarash 1893

02-24-2013, 11:39 PM

Southeastern Serbia VS Kosovo Albanians

Age structure showdown

-Southeastern Serbia is marked in green

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Statistickiregioni.png/422px-Statistickiregioni.png

Total: 1,563,916 .......... 1,616,869

0-4: 65.006 ................. 138.651

5-9: 74.337 ................. 149.993

10-14: 77.250 ............... 166.154

15-19: 90.314 ............... 164.135

20-24: 93.534 ............... 151.471

25-29: 95.094 .............. 131.946

30-34: 97.191 ............... 122.240

35-39: 104.066 .............. 116.913

40-44: 101.322 .............. 100.680

45-49: 103.381 ............... 87.723

50-54: 109.665 ............... 73.793

55-59: 128.415 ............... 59.465

60-64: 121.335 ............... 48.311

65-69: 82.571 ................ 40.323

70-74: 83.052 ................ 30.350

75+: 137.3983 ................ 34.781

Good thing comrade Tito didint made to much combinations with the borders of Kosovo because Albanians could have been neighbours with Romania.:D

Bugarash 1893

02-25-2013, 11:50 PM

Eastern Region

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Map_of_the_municipalities_of_Eastern_Statistical_R egion_en.svg/744px-Map_of_the_municipalities_of_Eastern_Statistical_R egion_en.svg.png

Total population according to the 2002 census : 203.213

Total Births - Deaths

2001: 2.094 - 1.910
...

2006: 1.678 - 1.814

2007: 1.648 - 1.887

2008: 1.664 - 1.830

2009: 1.800 - 1.897

2010: 1.778 - 1.820

2011: 1.567 - 1.907

2012: 1.673 - 1.933

The Illyrian Warrior

02-27-2013, 06:10 PM

Eastern Region

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Map_of_the_municipalities_of_Eastern_Statistical_R egion_en.svg/744px-Map_of_the_municipalities_of_Eastern_Statistical_R egion_en.svg.png

Total population according to the 2002 census : 203.213

Total Births - Deaths

Bugaresh expert :P, can you show recent data births for other parts too esp. pollog, southwest.

Bugarash 1893

03-01-2013, 06:43 AM

Skopje region

-About 40% of all births in Macedonia are in this region

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Map_of_the_municipalities_of_Skopje_Statistical_Re gion_en.svg

Total population according to the 2002 census : 571.048

Total Births -Deaths

2001: 7.566 - 4.341
...

2006: 7.282 - 4.706

2007: 7.456 - 5.130

2008: 7.600 - 5.059

2009: 7.824 - 5.084

2010: 8.135 - 5.153

2011: 7.813 - 5.205

2012: 7.971 - 5.502

Bugarash 1893

03-02-2013, 09:13 AM

School in the village of Slivnik-Veles municipality.

This village according to the 2002 census had a population of 444 people.
Look how many children it has.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZLmZTg5y64

Bugarash 1893

03-03-2013, 02:46 PM

Chucher Sandevo

1.Albanians kicking ass.
2.Serbs are being fully assimilated by the Macedonians
3.Thanks to the assimilation of Serbs,the location of the municipality-next to Skopje and that it is a 100% rural municipality,the Macedonians are stable.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Map_of_%C4%8Cu%C4%8Der_Sandevo_Municipality.svg

According to the 2002 census:

Macedonians = 4,019 (47.3%)
Serbs = 2,426 (28.6%)
Albanians = 1,943 (22.9%)

Macedonians

59/61 -2
60/44 +16
72/50 +22
67/45 +22

Albanians

79/11 +68
95/11 +84
100/7 +93
92/11 +81

Serbs

7/15 -8
5/12 -7
8/18 -10
4/17 -13

Bugarash 1893

03-04-2013, 11:24 PM

This is the publication posted in serbian media.
Albanians till 2080 will become a majority in Serbia.

Most stupid thing ever but a buddy of mine wanted to know the possibilities.

Two things...
1.Never make long stage estimates.
2.Albanians dont have the demographic power for that.

http://www.kurir-info.rs/pretnja-do-2080-albanaca-ce-biti-vise-nego-srba-clanak-472672

http://images3.kurir-info.rs/slika-620x333/tabela-1350989565-222352.jpg

http://images.kurir-info.rs/slika-900x608/srbi-albanci-vecina-vecinsko-stanovnistvo-2080-godine-1350940627-222190.jpg

They didint even wrote the basic census infromation right...damn amateurs.:D

Kosovo

.................Serbs............................ Albanians

1948..........171.911.....23,6%..........498.242.. ...68,5%
1953..........189.869.....23,5%..........524.559.. ...64,9%
1961..........227.016.....23,6%..........646.805.. ...67,2%
1971..........228.264.....18,4%..........16.168... ...73,7%
1981..........209.498.....13,2%..........1.226.736 ...77,4%
1991..........195.301.....9,9% ..........1.607.690...82,2%
2012..........25.575......1,47%..........1.588.257 ...92,93%

Later I will explain why this is bullcrap.

Grizzly

03-05-2013, 03:29 AM

^^
I love how half of serbia by 2052 is projected to be Albanian while Northern Kosovo still manages to be Serbia lol

The.Mask

03-05-2013, 11:25 PM

Macedonian allies with Turkish in Struga and Kicevo against Albanians in these two cities !!!

(Sorry albanian only) 1:20 min

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5UnnYZCSkQ&feature=share

Onur

03-06-2013, 12:01 AM

Macedonian allies with Turkish in Struga and Kicevo against Albanians in these two cities !!!
This is an excellent news.

It`s good to see that the Turkish people of Macedonia doesn't buy into so-called "islamic brotherhood" propaganda of the Albanians. But i know few people who lives in Macedonia and they always told me that the Turks of Macedonia are largely aware of the ill intentions of the Albanians.

Arbërori

03-06-2013, 12:09 AM

This is an excellent news.

It`s good to see that the Turkish people of Macedonia doesn't buy into so-called "islamic brotherhood" propaganda of the Albanians. But i know few people who lives in Macedonia and they always told me that the Turks of Macedonia are largely aware of the ill intentions of the Albanians.

Struga & Kicevo are in the west, which stands for a bunch of good ol' deluded Balkanites. ;) It's also good to see that the Pomak population in Bulgaria is loyal to it's nation, unlike you Turkish wannabe, twaitah! :lol:

Onur

03-06-2013, 12:15 AM

iNird

03-06-2013, 12:19 AM

I believe there is one and only way for Macedonian state to resolve the Albanian problem in there;

They should invite Turkish people back to Macedonia who previously expelled out to Turkey by Tito after 1950s. If they give back their Macedonian passports and invite them to there, then this would be a major blow to the Albanian separatist movement in Macedonia.

They were already living in Macedonia for centuries and they already deserves to get Macedonian citizenship much more than Albanians or anyone else. If this would happen, then the number of Turks would easily surpass Albanians and they would immediately loose their political power in the country.

lol

if that happened, FYROM would turn to Ilirida because the majority of these people that left were albanians. ;)

Unfortunately it is tough for Albanians to return back to Macedonia from Turkey for the few that want to return.

Bosnjakinja

03-06-2013, 12:24 AM

Macedonians need to stand together and throw themselves into the demographic race by having babies, that's what Macedonians need to do.

Btw, I've seen pictures of the Skopje 2014 project, and as "ridiculous" as many say it is, the city looks much better with the new buildings (:

Prengs

03-06-2013, 12:29 AM

I believe there is one and only way for Macedonian state to resolve the Albanian problem in there;

They should invite Turkish people back to Macedonia who previously expelled out to Turkey by Tito after 1950s. If they give back their Macedonian passports and invite them to there, then this would be a major blow to the Albanian separatist movement in Macedonia.

They were already living in Macedonia for centuries and they already deserves to get Macedonian citizenship much more than Albanians or anyone else. If this would happen, then the number of Turks would easily surpass Albanians and they would immediately loose their political power in the country.

LOL what a joke, in Turkey at least are 800k turks of albanian origin from Macedonia. Imagine if Albs use your sick strategy would absolute majority in Macedonia.
Even those who pretend to be turks in Kichevo and Struga in fact are torbesh (slavic muslims) that dont know even turkish language and they just have been brainwashed from "islamic brotherhood".

Onur

03-06-2013, 12:35 AM

lol

if that happened, FYROM would turn to Ilirida because the majority of these people that left were albanians. ;)
This is a lie and we spoke about this before.

There is a district in my home city and the people here are almost exclusively these immigrants from Macedonia. I personally know few people from there and there is not even single Albanian in there. There are only some Torbesh muslims but most are Turkish people. I would know if there would be any Albanian among them.

The expulsion of Turks from Macedonia was a result of Tito`s persecution against the local Turkish people. The events which resulted with this population movement was the death sentences given to the 10-15 Turkish teachers&journalists and imprisonment of 90-100 Turkish people. They have been accused of being a Turkish/NATO spy and then the Turkish schools, newspapers, magazines banned in all over Macedonia. None of these events was related with Albanians of Macedonia.

I am sure that if Tito government wouldn't send ~250.000 people to Turkey at that time, Albanians would never be the biggest minority in Macedonia today. That population movement was the reason of today`s Albanian domination in Macedonia. You can see that in census figures of Macedonia in 1950s and the following years.

iNird

03-06-2013, 12:44 AM

This is a lie and we spoke about this before.

There is a district in my home city and the people here are almost exclusively these immigrants from Macedonia. I personally know few people from there and there is not even single Albanian in there. There are only some Torbesh muslims but most are Turkish people. I would know if there would be any Albanian among them.

The expulsion of Turks from Macedonia was a result of Tito`s persecution against the local Turkish people. The events which resulted with this population movement was the death sentences given to the 10-15 Turkish teachers&journalists and imprisonment of 90-100 Turkish people. They have been accused of being a Turkish/NATO spy and then the Turkish schools, newspapers, magazines banned in all over Macedonia. None of these events was related with Albanians of Macedonia.

I am sure that if Tito government wouldn't send ~250.000 people to Turkey at that time, Albanians would never be the biggest minority in Macedonia today. That population movement was the reason of today`s Albanian domination in Macedonia. You can see that in census figures of Macedonia in 1950s and the following years.

Onur it's not lie it's well documented. You can even see the source I posted yesterday that speaks on this issue. TBH no one gives a shit about your views because you have proven to be the most biased Turk on this forum. I would even take a person like Altay or Ashina more seriously but you are deluded in your Turko fantasies and have proven to be anything but objective. Regardess I have discussed this before with you and will not waste my time posting the sources again. The people that left for Turkey in the 50's were majorly Albanian. The census results prove this, the various sources document this and the general policy in Yugoslavia at the time all come to the same conclusion.

Even if we go by your theory that these people that left were Turks (which is not the case) the Macedonian government would never import Muslim Turks in the country to stop the Albanian expansion or however you put it. It's simply a pipe dream. Macedonian Slavs only like Turks in support against Greeks and investments, otherwise they despise you, maybe not as much as Albanians since you don't pose a threat to their country but they don't like you very much.

iNird

03-06-2013, 12:49 AM

After doing a quick search in this thread, it seems I posted this before to you.

By 1953 many Albanians who were fearful about their position in Yugoslavia had declared themselves to be “Turks.” The Yugoslav authorities also took measures to encourage people in Kosovo and Macedonia to identify themselves as Turks. The Turks were declared a national minority and new Turkish schools were opened. Since the term “Turk” was still used in the region as a general term for Muslims, it was acceptable to the devout elements among Muslim Albanians. These develop- ments seem to have been not only the product of a policy of divide and rule but also part of a plan aimed at the removal of large numbers of Albanians.24 In accordance with the treaty of 1953 signed with Turkey, Yugoslavia allowed large-scale emigration of Yugoslav “Turks” to Turkey. Extensive emigration took place in the period following 1953.25 However, some of them were in fact Muslim Albanians (mainly from Macedonia and Kosovo) who had claimed to be Turks in order to take advantage of the emigration treaty.26

Aydin Babuna, Professoar from The Ataturk Institute for Modern Turkish History

Onur

03-06-2013, 12:51 AM

TBH no one gives a shit about your views because you have proven to be the most biased Turk on this forum. I would even take a person like Altay or Ashina more seriously but you are deluded in your Turko fantasies and have proven to be anything but objective. Regardess I have discussed this before with you and will not waste my time posting the sources again. The people that left for Turkey in the 50's were majorly Albanian. The census results prove this, the various sources document this and the general policy in Yugoslavia at the time all come to the same conclusion.
Yeah same for me. Not only you, i wouldn't discuss these issues with any Albanian because you guys are obsessed with your illyrian lies and you even completely deny the Turkish existence in Balkans, considering all the muslims as Albanians.

Macedonian Slavs only like Turks in support against Greeks and investments, otherwise they despise you, maybe not as much as Albanians since you don't pose a threat to their country but they don't like you very much.
Yes, i know that. It was just a food for thought but i honestly think that it`s the only way for Macedonian state to break Albanian separatism in there.

After doing a quick search in this thread, it seems I posted this before to you.
Yes, i know the existence of some sneaky Albanians who pretended to be Turks to get away from the commie regime in there in favor of democratic Turkey but you cannot Albanize all the ~200.000 people who migrated to Turkey back then. Those Albanians was a tiny minority among them, probably even less than Torbesh ones.

iNird

03-06-2013, 12:54 AM

When have I ever been obsessed with Illyrian lies? Fuck off dude. I don't deny Turkish influence but I do hold the belief that the majority of Turks in Macedonia (in Western Macedonia atleast) are assimilated Albos/Makos.

You seem to be an intelligent person Onur but you are extremely biased and it's hard to have a rational discussion with you. I will add you to my list to people I refuse to converse with.

Note to Novi Pazar you are still on my list.

Prengs

03-06-2013, 01:01 AM

This forum www.arnavutum.com is from Albanians of Turkey that have up 11.5k members, if you go to KENDİNİZİ TANITIN (Prezantojeni veten) section you can see 65-70% of members are Albanians from Macedonia that their family expelled during 1912-1960 (especially 1947-1952) and they explains how they did came to Turkey.

http://www.arnavutum.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=2

Also from this most know turkish webmaster forum, members that claim by albanian origin are mostly from Macedonia.

http://forum.donanimhaber.com/m_42048132/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm

Grizzly

03-06-2013, 01:02 AM

Yeah same for me. Not only you, i wouldn't discuss these issues with any Albanian because you guys are obsessed with your illyrian lies and you even completely deny the Turkish existence in Balkans, considering all the muslims as Albanians.

Yes, i know that. It was just a food for thought but i honestly think that it`s the only way for Macedonian state to break Albanian separatism in there.

Yes, i know the existence of some sneaky Albanians who pretended to be Turks to get away from the commie regime in there in favor of democratic Turkey but you cannot Albanize all the ~200.000 people who migrated to Turkey back then. Those Albanians was a tiny minority among them, probably even less than Torbesh ones.

Onur you've been proven wrong on this topic numerous times on this forum and other forums. You simply ignore the facts and truth of the situation and continue to post false information. I also think Inird proved you wrong on this topic multiple times as well... Just give it a rest

Grizzly

03-06-2013, 01:11 AM

iNird

03-06-2013, 01:33 AM

Just look at the demographics of FYROM from 1948-53
In 1948:
Macedonians-789,603 (68.5%)
Albanians-197,603 (17.1%)
Turks- 95,940 (8.3%)

1953:
Macedonians: 860,699 (66%)
Albanians: 162,524 (12.4%)
Turks: 203,928 (15.6%)

Notice how the Albanian population decreased by 35k despite having an extremely high birthrate and probably one of the highest in the world!. Now notice the Turkish population rising by nearly 100k...

Albanians probably made up 60% of that "Turkish" increase.. Then there's other non-turko muslims that make up a significant percentage of that increase as well.

Point is you're a fucking hoax. Now get lost and post some Anti-Greek articles

I think this guy should be ignored and any response to him is a waste of keystrokes. These Turks do not know how to respond to criticism or opposing views which is why they set laws against any views towards Turkishness. If I lived in Turkey, Onur would try to have me arrested for denigrating their Turkishness.

:laugh:

Hayalet

03-06-2013, 02:00 AM

In 1948:
Macedonians-789,603 (68.5%)
Albanians-197,603 (17.1%)
Turks- 95,940 (8.3%)

1953:
Macedonians: 860,699 (66%)
Albanians: 162,524 (12.4%)
Turks: 203,928 (15.6%)
No data on native language?

poiuytrewq0987

03-06-2013, 02:03 AM

I think this guy should be ignored and any response to him is a waste of keystrokes. These Turks do not know how to respond to criticism or opposing views which is why they set laws against any views towards Turkishness. If I lived in Turkey, Onur would try to have me arrested for denigrating their Turkishness.

:laugh:

Last October, the CPJ reported (http://cpj.org/reports/Turkey2012.English.pdf) that there were 76 journalists imprisoned in Turkey, including 61 who were in jail for their journalistic work. While the latter number declined to 49 by December, after some of those held were freed by the courts, that is still a lot of journalists to hold in prison.

CommentsView/Create comment on this paragraph (http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/backsliding-on-human-rights-in-turkey-by-aryeh-neier#)The situation is especially dismaying, given that, for several years, Turkey’s human-rights performance had been improving dramatically under Erdoğan’s leadership. The use of torture had declined sharply. The cultural rights of the large Kurdish minority, including the right to use their own language, had advanced greatly. Military control over the civilian government had been ended. And more.

Read more at http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/backsliding-on-human-rights-in-turkey-by-aryeh-neier#vpwrH2cR2Qc1QLIr.99

iNird

03-06-2013, 02:13 AM

No data on native language?

You can go on the Macedonian government website and look through their database.

Based on this source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=asqDerbcx3kC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=mother+tongue+1948+macedonia&source=bl&ots=nMuytfIXyq&sig=MnWucJk1pEcyNjI_o-leWq7t2cI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ObI2UdiyMvGA2AWJvICwAQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=mother%20tongue%201948%20macedonia&f=false

For 1953, there were 203,938 Turks, 143,615 declaring Turkish as their mother tongue. I'm not sure for 1948, you can go on the Macedonian government website and navigate their database but their files are in a weird format that I am having trouble opening. I have found a copy what I assume is the publication to the 1948 census but it's in Serbian which I can not understand.

The author in the above source indicates that amount of Turkish population has typically had a larger Turkish population compared to Turkish mother tongue. I would assume the 1948 census would have similar results.

Hayalet

03-06-2013, 02:59 AM

For 1953, there were 203,938 Turks, 143,615 declaring Turkish as their mother tongue.
OK, if this is true, it's clear that a notable amount of otherwise non-Turks identified Turkish in 1953.

iNird

03-06-2013, 03:34 AM

OK, if this is true, it's clear that a notable amount of otherwise non-Turks identified Turkish in 1953.

Maybe Bugaresh the expert can post the publication, he speaks a Slavic language and would have an easier job finding it. Regardless the amount of self declared Turks in 1948 was 95,940 (which most likely includes non-Turkish speakers) increases to 143,615 Turkish speakers in Macedonia. A 50% increase.

In Kosovo, the Turkish population goes from 1,320 in 1948 to 34,590 in 1953. A 33 fold increase lol.

See Page 7

http://esk.rks-gov.net/index.php/publikimet/doc_details/575-ndryshimet-demografike-te-popullsise-se-kosoves-ne-periudhen-1948-2006

The below shows the total Albanain population (primarily in Kosovo and Macedonia.) Notice how the Turkish population nearly triples from 1948 to 1953. (Edit this also shows mother tongue statistics for 1953 on page 275)

http://books.google.com/books?id=EnEFNOcYIrUC&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=macedonian+census+1948&source=bl&ots=IGyGk0HwZM&sig=i63_16-BB2AY6Ob8SF8hfwmLBYU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U8U2UZn_NJTW2wWi6oHIDw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=macedonian%20census%201948&f=false

It appears the 1948 census was much more limited and I don't think mother tongue was included. Maybe Bugaresh the expert could provide results of the publication.

Regardless there is a huge increase in Turkish population from 1948 to 1953 and a large decrease of Albanian population from 1948 to 1953 in Macedonia. This can all be attributed to the fact that many non-Turks were declaring to be Turks to emigrate to Turkey.

Edit:

Normally I would do a printscreen since it's easier to display but I'm using windows and too lazy.

Anyways brb when Onur makes the same claim in a year.

:coffee:

Crn Volk

03-06-2013, 03:50 AM

Maybe Bugaresh the expert can post the publication, he speaks a Slavic language and would have an easier job finding it. (Edit found this see page Still the amount of total Turks in 1948 was 95,940 (which most likely includes non-Turkish speakers) increases to 143,615 Turkish speakers in Macedonia. A dramatic increase.

In Kosovo, the Turkish population goes from 1,320 in 1948 to 34,590 in 1953. A 33 fold increase lol.

See Page 7

http://esk.rks-gov.net/index.php/publikimet/doc_details/575-ndryshimet-demografike-te-popullsise-se-kosoves-ne-periudhen-1948-2006

The below shows the total Albanain population (primarily in Kosovo and Macedonia.) Notice how the Turkish population nearly triples from 1948 to 1953. (Edit this also shows mother tongue statistics for 1953 on page 275)

http://books.google.com/books?id=EnEFNOcYIrUC&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=macedonian+census+1948&source=bl&ots=IGyGk0HwZM&sig=i63_16-BB2AY6Ob8SF8hfwmLBYU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U8U2UZn_NJTW2wWi6oHIDw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=macedonian%20census%201948&f=false

It appears the 1948 census was much more limited and I don't think mother tongue was included. Maybe Bugaresh the expert could provide results of the publication.

Regardless there is a huge increase in Turkish population from 1948 to 1953 and a large decrease of Albanian population from 1948 to 1953 in Macedonia. This can all be attributed to the fact that many non-Turks were declaring to be Turks to emigrate to Turkey.

Edit:

Normally I would do a printscreen since it's easier to display but I'm using windows and too lazy.

Don't know about Bugarash being an expert. He claims Macedonians are Bulgarians, but can only find 1,417 Bulgarians in the last census...:cool:

Onur

03-06-2013, 11:13 AM

Also from this most know turkish webmaster forum, members that claim by albanian origin are mostly from Macedonia.

http://forum.donanimhaber.com/m_42048132/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm
No, most of the Albanians in Turkey are from Kosova, not from Macedonia.

OK, if this is true, it's clear that a notable amount of otherwise non-Turks identified Turkish in 1953.
No, this only proves the magnitude of Albanization in Macedonia.

This is still happening in there as i heard many stories of Turkish girls getting marry with Albanians in there and their children cannot speak anything but Albanian. They are also eroding the number of slavic muslim Torbesh with this way. There are so many people in there who identifies themselves as Turkish but speaks nothing but Albanian. As you can guess, the Albanization process gets completed in the next generation after they lost their mothertongue.

Albanians are doing this purposely to Albanize all the muslim population of Macedonia. I have listened these issues from the Turkish people who currently lives in Macedonia. Especially they are actively trying to Albanize the Turkish people in eastern side of the country like Debre, Debar. So many Turkish children are getting educated in Albanian language and eventually abandoning their mothertongue. Albanians mayors and other authorities strictly following Albanization policy and encourage Slavic and Turkish muslim children to study in Albanian schools.

I think Sokol or anyone from Macedonia can confirm this and they can post articles about the Albanization of Slavic and Turkish muslims.

Arbërori

03-06-2013, 11:25 AM

No, this only proves the magnitude of Albanization in Macedonia.

This is still happening in there as i heard many stories of Turkish girls getting marry with Albanians in there and their children cannot speak anything but Albanian. They are also eroding the number of slavic muslim Torbesh with this way. There are so many people in there who identifies themselves as Turkish but speaks nothing but Albanian.

Albanians are doing this purposely to Albanize all the muslim population of Macedonia. I have listened these issues from the Turkish people who currently lives in Macedonia. Especially they are actively trying to Albanize the Turkish people in eastern side of the country like Debre, Debar. So many Turkish children are getting educated in Albanian language and eventually abandoning their mothertongue. Albanians mayors and other authorities strictly following Albanization policy and encourage Slavic and Turkish muslim children to study in Albanian schools.

I think Sokol or anyone from Macedonia can confirm this and they can post articles about the Albanization of Slavic and Turkish muslims.

:lol: Turkish girls getting married to Albanian guys? You got it all wrong, but why am I not surprised... I was in Macedonia this december & the situation is pretty much like this: the ALSO Turkish speaking Albanian girls (take an ex. Gostivar, which is Albanian-Macedonian populated, with a few gipsies self-declared as Turks) are getting married into, let's put in a way, rural Albanian families, which didn't speak the Turkish esperanto dialect, that some did & do. Such an ex. is my mother, she was fluent in Albanian, Turkish & Bulgaro-Macedonian, yet my father was fluent only in Albanian.

Noone is bothering to assimilate so-called western ''Turks'' of Macedonia, because you ''people'' are rather a taboo & sorry, at how it is, I doubt an Albanian male would choose a Turkish girl over an Albanian one, especially under family pressure, which would not tolerate it. So if you want to stick to any Turkish legacy, turn your batshit crazy mind & eyes towards eastern Macedonia, but there the Turkish population is a melting pot of subjugated people anyways. :rolleyes:

As for the Torbesh, they either have a proud Slavic Muslim identity or a self-pleasing, imaginary Turkish one.

Grizzly

03-06-2013, 12:54 PM

No, most of the Albanians in Turkey are from Kosova, not from Macedonia.

No, this only proves the magnitude of Albanization in Macedonia.

This is still happening in there as i heard many stories of Turkish girls getting marry with Albanians in there and their children cannot speak anything but Albanian. They are also eroding the number of slavic muslim Torbesh with this way. There are so many people in there who identifies themselves as Turkish but speaks nothing but Albanian. As you can guess, the Albanization process gets completed in the next generation after they lost their mothertongue.

Albanians are doing this purposely to Albanize all the muslim population of Macedonia. I have listened these issues from the Turkish people who currently lives in Macedonia. Especially they are actively trying to Albanize the Turkish people in eastern side of the country like Debre, Debar. So many Turkish children are getting educated in Albanian language and eventually abandoning their mothertongue. Albanians mayors and other authorities strictly following Albanization policy and encourage Slavic and Turkish muslim children to study in Albanian schools.

I think Sokol or anyone from Macedonia can confirm this and they can post articles about the Albanization of Slavic and Turkish muslims.

All your "experiences" comes from internet experiences with random aussie posters such as the idiots at macedoniantruth.org...

Sorry Onur they don't count as experiences lol

iNird

03-06-2013, 01:01 PM

:lol: Turkish girls getting married to Albanian guys? You got it all wrong, but why am I not surprised... I was in Macedonia this december & the situation is pretty much like this: the ALSO Turkish speaking Albanian girls (take an ex. Gostivar, which is Albanian-Macedonian populated, with a few gipsies self-declared as Turks) are getting married into, let's put in a way, rural Albanian families, which didn't speak the Turkish esperanto dialect, that some did & do. Such an ex. is my mother, she was fluent in Albanian, Turkish & Bulgaro-Macedonian, yet my father was fluent only in Albanian.

Noone is bothering to assimilate so-called western ''Turks'' of Macedonia, because you ''people'' are rather a taboo & sorry, at how it is, I doubt an Albanian male would choose a Turkish girl over an Albanian one, especially under family pressure, which would not tolerate it. So if you want to stick to any Turkish legacy, turn your batshit crazy mind & eyes towards eastern Macedonia, but there the Turkish population is a melting pot of subjugated people anyways. :rolleyes:

As for the Torbesh, they either have a proud Slavic Muslim identity or a self-pleasing, imaginary Turkish one.

This guy is using some personal story he heard from one person in recent times and applying it to what happened in 1953. This is ridiculous but you can't expect any sort of objectivity with this Muhacir. Even his story is so ludicrous. Most people in the Balkans side with the side of their father, so even if Muhacir's story is correct, it wouldn't be out of the norm for the child to identify with their Albanian side like you mentioned.

The amount of Turkish NGOs, Turkish schools and recent Turkish influence is doing the exact opposite what this Muhacir is suggesting . I have even posted government statistics on the education in Macedonia that suggest that relative to their population, Turks are overrepresented in Education field and this does not even tract the amount of Turkish private schools.

Like I said this guy is a borderline troll that posts the same shit over and over again. He would post the same shit on Macedoniantruth.org but there wasn't anyone like me to call him out on his bs.

Read here where he makes the same tiresome arguments:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?51984-Balkan-Turks-who-are-they-and-where-did-they-come-from/page14

:p

iNird

03-06-2013, 02:37 PM

Bugarash 1893

03-06-2013, 04:04 PM

I believe there is one and only way for Macedonian state to resolve the Albanian problem in there;

They should invite Turkish people back to Macedonia who previously expelled out to Turkey by Tito after 1950s. If they give back their Macedonian passports and invite them to there, then this would be a major blow to the Albanian separatist movement in Macedonia.

They were already living in Macedonia for centuries and they already deserves to get Macedonian citizenship much more than Albanians or anyone else. If this would happen, then the number of Turks would easily surpass Albanians and they would immediately loose their political power in the country.

Dont be a beggar.
I have been seeing Turks on TV begging to get Macedonian passports just so they could travel vise free.
Pathetic.

Onur

03-06-2013, 04:04 PM

And to finally put the nail in the coffin to show how much of a fraud this Muahcir is there was a total of 33 births that involved an Albanian father and Turkish mother for 2011. There was actually a total of 45 births with a Turkish father and an Albanian Mother.

There was a total of 40 marriages involving an Albanian groom and a turkish bride. There was a total of 60 marriages involving a Turkish groom and an Albanian gbride.

What these numbers seem to suggest is that intermarriages are uncommon and even if the Muhacir's conspiracy is true, the success of it is insignificant. 33 to be exact, whoopey fucking doo. If anything the numbers suggest the opposite what he is alluding to.

All my statistics can be found here:

http://www.stat.gov.mk/Publikacii/Mak_Brojki_2012_A.pdf
You fail because i also know that these Turkish people are under huge pressure to declare themselves as Albanians in all the censuses and polls. Albanians are doing this to artificially increase their population in the country.

These 60 girls are just brave ones who can declare themselves as Turkish while living in an Albanian family. They are rare.

iNird

03-06-2013, 04:42 PM

You fail because i also know that these Turkish people are under huge pressure to declare themselves as Albanians in all the censuses and polls. Albanians are doing this to artificially increase their population in the country.

These 60 girls are just brave ones who can declare themselves as Turkish while living in an Albanian family. They are rare.

Yes I fail since I use statistics, sources and general knowledge of the area to support my arguments while you base all your arguments on email correspondents.

Also considering the Turkish Groom/Father and Albanian Bride/Mother post similar results, this doesn't support your statement.

Bugarash 1893

03-06-2013, 04:49 PM

Macedonian allies with Turkish in Struga and Kicevo against Albanians in these two cities !!!

(Sorry albanian only) 1:20 min

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5UnnYZCSkQ&feature=share

They always have been in a coalition,thats nothing new.
Turkish parties are small,they need to climb up on someones back in order to get a position.

Btw if it wasnt for the Albanians,now Turks wouldnt have any of the rights.
They got their right on the back of the Albanians...

Turks are insignificant in Struga.
While in Kichevo,those are Torbesh who declare to be Turks.
And Torbesh are like sunflower,they would probably follow their religious instinct.

iNird

03-06-2013, 04:53 PM

They always have been in a coalition,thats nothing new.
Turkish parties are small,they need to clib up on someones back in order to get a position.

Btw if it wasnt for the Albanians,now Turks wouldnt have any of the rights.
They got their right on the back of the Albanians...

That's true, Albanians have used the pretext of "minorities" to further their rights to appear less nationalistic. Even in the 1997 protests Albanians were asking for the Turkish flag to be raised as well. Without the Albanian support the rest of the minorities would not enjoy any of their rights.

Lastly no one really cares about the "Turks" in Macedonia, most of them are a lost cause. Like I've stated before, these Turks in Plasnica (one of the few Turkish majority municipalities) declared as Torbesh only 20 years ago. They are even more confused in their identity than Macedonians.....

Bugarash 1893

03-06-2013, 05:26 PM

Gostivar incidents 1997
Albanians protesting for the use of the national flags and waving albanian and turkish flags.
In these happenings several Albanians were killed,the flags were removed and the mayor who put the flags on the municipal building sentenced to years in jail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFaE6auCHKQ

morski

03-06-2013, 09:07 PM

That's true, Albanians have used the pretext of "minorities" to further their rights to appear less nationalistic. Even in the 1997 protests Albanians were asking for the Turkish flag to be raised as well. Without the Albanian support the rest of the minorities would not enjoy any of their rights.

Lastly no one really cares about the "Turks" in Macedonia, most of them are a lost cause. Like I've stated before, these Turks in Plasnica (one of the few Turkish majority municipalities) declared as Torbesh only 20 years ago. They are even more confused in their identity than Macedonians.....

I am generally opposed to the notion of minorities having collective rights in the line of thinking of Ayn Rand:

Ayn Rand, developer of the philosophy of Objectivism asserted that a group, as such, has no rights. She maintained that only an individual man can possess rights, and therefore the expression "individual rights" is a redundancy, while the expression "collective rights" is a contradiction in terms. In this view, a man can neither acquire new rights by joining a group nor lose the rights which he does possess. Man can be in a group without want or the group minority, without rights. According to this philosophy, individual rights are not subject to a public vote, a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority, the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from the will of majorities, and the smallest minority on earth is the individual.[6] This could be argued to contravene the idea of corporate personhood.

The partisanship in Macedonia, be it ethnic or political, has always been the cause of problems down there historically. Provided the territory had been incorporated into Bulgaria in 1912 most of the bullshit that has happened there since the Serbs got hold on it wouldn't have occured.

Crn Volk

03-06-2013, 09:28 PM

I am generally opposed to the notion of minorities having collective rights in the line of thinking of Ayn Rand:

The partisanship in Macedonia, be it ethnic or political, has always been the cause of problems down there historically. Provided the territory had been incorporated into Bulgaria in 1912 most of the bullshit that has happened there since the Serbs got hold on it wouldn't have occured.

What would Bulgaria have done with the Albanians?

morski

03-06-2013, 09:38 PM

Article 6. (1) All persons are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

(2) All citizens shall be equal before the law. Neither abridgement of rights nor any privileges whatsoever shall be admissible on the basis of race, nationality, ethnic identity, sex, origin, religion, education, convictions, political affiliation, personal and social status, or property status.

Article 7. The State shall incur liability for any detriment caused by unlawful acts or actions by authorities and officials of the State.

From the Constitution of the rep. of Bulgaria.

iNird

03-06-2013, 09:39 PM

Ideally no such thing would be needed. In a perfect word, individual rights would be respected and there would be no discrimination towards the individual in say employment, language rights etc. Individuals would vote not on ethnic, religious, regional and even public employment terms, but on the ideals of the parties. Unfortunately this was and is not the case in FYROM. Albanian rights on an individual basis were violated but their plight was done on a collective level.

Bugarash 1893

03-07-2013, 01:38 AM

Population under 15 years of age-0-14

Serbs in Serbia

2002 : 949.871
2011 : 819.091 (-130.780, -13.77 %)

Albanians in Kosovo 2011: 454.798

Bugarash 1893

03-07-2013, 10:13 PM

Population under 15 years of age-0-14

Serbs in Serbia

2002 : 949.871
2011 : 819.091 (-130.780, -13.77 %)

Albanians in Kosovo 2011: 454.798

If it wasnt for the deportation of Albanians to Turkey and if there wasnt a war...Kosovo Albanians would have made up 50+% in the age group 0-14 of Serbia.

Which would mean that all of Serbia would have been turned into an albanian state in the future!:eek:

But even in the current situation,if Kosovo was part of Serbia,Albanians would made up 1/3 of Serbia's 0-14 population.

If we take into consideration the other muslims living in Kosovo plus the muslims already existing in Serbia...it can reach 50%!

Kosovo becoming indipendent is a real imputation.
Kosovo would have buried Serbia.

The Illyrian Warrior

03-09-2013, 10:44 AM

This is an excellent news.

It`s good to see that the Turkish people of Macedonia doesn't buy into so-called "islamic brotherhood" propaganda of the Albanians. But i know few people who lives in Macedonia and they always told me that the Turks of Macedonia are largely aware of the ill intentions of the Albanians.

Thats why we call turks infidel or treacherous, you can't be trusted turko......Dont forget Kurds are coming, Kurds are coming AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH......this is first time i say but LONG LIVE KURDISTAN turko-pomaki :thumb001:

The Illyrian Warrior

03-09-2013, 11:01 AM

I believe there is one and only way for Macedonian state to resolve the Albanian problem in there;

They should invite Turkish people back to Macedonia who previously expelled out to Turkey by Tito after 1950s. If they give back their Macedonian passports and invite them to there, then this would be a major blow to the Albanian separatist movement in Macedonia.

They were already living in Macedonia for centuries and they already deserves to get Macedonian citizenship much more than Albanians or anyone else. If this would happen, then the number of Turks would easily surpass Albanians and they would immediately loose their political power in the country.

LOOOL delusional Onuroglu pomaki-turd, the one who migrated to turkey in 50's were Albanians from Kosova and macedonia and left us in much uncomfortable position, just imagine if your state wouldn't be involved in our business.

The Illyrian Warrior

03-09-2013, 11:34 AM

They always have been in a coalition,thats nothing new.
Turkish parties are small,they need to climb up on someones back in order to get a position.

Btw if it wasnt for the Albanians,now Turks wouldnt have any of the rights.
They got their right on the back of the Albanians...

Turks are insignificant in Struga.
While in Kichevo,those are Torbesh who declare to be Turks.
And Torbesh are like sunflower,they would probably follow their religious instinct.

Very true and realistic :thumb001:

Bugarash 1893

03-11-2013, 03:40 PM

Number of students in primary school 2010/2011

Skopje

Macedonians: 29.308 (54,5%)
Albanians: 17.194 (32%)

Bugarash 1893

03-12-2013, 02:13 AM

It will be interesting in Skopje in about 10 years from now...I forcast a civil war.
There is just no way for a city with a 55/45% Christian/Muslim population to peacefully coexist.
Especially not when 35% of those Muslims are Albanians.

We have a clash of two end here,on one side a lively,radical element,element on the uprise,at the top of its national-romantism,in the face of the Albanians.
And a paranoid,frustrated,statue building,crazy bunch of Macedonoids.

History shows that everywhere where such ethnic composition existed,there was a conflict.Even in Sarajevo,where Christians and Muslims spoke on the same language and there was a 13% rate of mixed marriages.

It is just bound to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld7MMZOep5o

Bugarash 1893

03-12-2013, 02:40 AM

There is no return path for Struga,Albanians are for sure getting this municipality
-Macedonoids gave up the city of Hristo Matov and Miladinov brothers to the Albanians!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Map_StrugaMunicipality.png

Number of primary school students 2010-2011

Macedonians: 1.727
Albanians: 3.547
Turks: 313
Roma: 43
Others/Torbesh: 888

Bugarash 1893

03-12-2013, 02:56 AM

And not only that!
Probably the second most historical region for Bulgarians in Macedonia,after Ohrid-Krushevo,is in front of a serious albanian threat!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/MKD_muni_nonn%28Krusevo%29.png

You already know that the Albanians in Krushevo municipality already have the same amount of births as Macedonians and Vlachs put together.

2002 census:

Macedonians - 6.081 = 62,8%
Albanians- 2.064 = 21,3%
Vlachs - 1.020 = 10,5%
Turks - 315 = 3,25%
Bosniaks - 137 = 1,41%

Births/Deaths 2008-2009-2010-2011

Macedonians

51/96
56/78
52/86
40/78

Albanians

43/16
61/13
44/14
42/10

Vlachs

5/9
3/4
1/17
2/18

Turks

9/2
14/3
10/1
4/1

Bosniaks

2/1
1/3
1/0
3/2

While thats bad,still,even with those results in terms of the births,Macedonians still have a chance to keep Krushevo...
But If they lose the battle for the primary school students...then we can officialy proclaim Krushevo as the future majority albanian municipality.

Krushevo primary school students 2010-2011

Macedonians: 408
Albanians: 315
Vlachs: 79
Others: 23

Bugarash 1893

03-12-2013, 07:30 PM

Sopishte has fallen to the Albanians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/MKD_muni_nonn%28Sopishte%29.png

2002 census:

Macedonians: 3.404 = 60,2%
Albanians: 1.942 = 34,3%
Turks: 243 = 4,3%

Primary school students 2010-2011

Macedonians: 223
Albanians: 317 (54,5%)
Others: 41

Crn Volk

03-13-2013, 12:55 AM

Any numbers for Vevcani?

Bugarash 1893

03-13-2013, 01:03 AM

Any numbers for Vevcani?

No need for that...

2002 census:

Macedonians = 2,419 (99.4%)
Others = 14 (0.6%)

Vevchani is secured,as long as it doesnt join Struga

Bugarash 1893

03-13-2013, 01:20 AM

Cashka is lost in terms of everything,totally lost

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/MKD_muni_nonn%28caska%29.png

2002 census:

Macedonians: 4.395 = 57,3%
Albanians: 2.703 = 35,2%
Turks: 391 = 5,1%
Others: 184 = 2,4%

Primary school students 2010/2011

Macedonians: 329 (31,6%)
Albanians: 620 (59,5%)
Turks: 83
Others: 9

Bugarash 1893

03-13-2013, 02:37 AM

More on Cashka-as I said,destruction on all fronts

Students who finished primary school 2010/11

Macedonians: 36 (31,3%)
Albanians: 62 (53,9%)
Turks: 16 (13,9%)

Births 2011

Macedonians: 26 (18,1%)
Albanians: 111 (77,6%)
Turks: 3 (2,09%)

Deaths 2011

Macedonians: 63 (68,5%)
Albanians: 20 (21,7%)
Turks: 0

Crn Volk

03-13-2013, 03:21 AM

Anything on Mavrovo?

Bugarash 1893

03-13-2013, 11:20 PM

Mavrovo and Rostushe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/MKD_muni_nonn%28Mavrovo_and_Rostusa%29.png

2002 census:

Macedonians: 4.349 = 50,5%
Turks: 2.680 = 31,1%
Albanians: 1.483 = 17,2%
Others: 106 = 1,2%
Primary school students 2010/2011

Macedonians: 156
Albanians: 95
Turks: 124
Others/Torbesh: 274

There is a massive trend of Torbesh to skip the graph Macedonians as you can see,a trend that seems to have drasticly increased since the 2002 census.
All the Turks and Others here are in reality Macedonians/Bulgarians.

Births/Deaths 2011

Macedonians 43/19
Albanians: 20/16
Turks: 6/2
Others: 13/21

The situation here is uncertain.
The Torbesh are like sunflowers.
They state one nationality when they have a birth,another when someone dies,
Different nationality when they go to school.
And another one in the census.

Onur

03-14-2013, 01:05 AM

All these people in Mavrovo are either 70 years olds or something wrong with your stats. How come birthrates can be that low like 6, 20, 43 for over 2000-4000 people?

Btw, there was always Turkish population in Mavrova throughout history because we even have several Turkish folk songs about Mavrova since Ottoman times;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx-hONW4CBQ

I have no idea about the current situation in there but i assume you speak from your ass again, by calling these people as bulgarians.

We have centuries old songs, poems, our culture, folklore, food and everything about this place and now even our very existence are getting denied by ignorant fools like you. Ofc i know you are not alone for that but almost all the balkanites denies our existence in there. This is just sad and unfair.

iNird

03-14-2013, 01:44 AM

Bugarash 1893

03-14-2013, 01:47 AM

All these people in Mavrovo are either 70 years olds or something wrong with your stats.

Its not that low.
The entire municipality in 2011 had a CBR of 9,51.
That would be great if it was a majority christian macedonian municipality.
But for a municipality where there are 100% muslim Torbesh and Albanians then yes it is low.

How come birthrates can be that low like 6, 20, 43 for over 2000-4000 people?

Mavrovo and Rostushe births abroad 2011:

Italy: 119
Switzerland: 6
Germany: 2
Austria: 3
Belgium: 1

There are more children from parents from Mavrovo and Rostushe being born abroad than in the municipality itself.

Those regions are famous for having a large immigration rate.

Btw, there was always Turkish population in Mavrova throughout history because we even have several Turkish folk songs about Mavrova since Ottoman times;

I have no idea about the current situation in there but i assume you speak from your ass again, by calling these people as bulgarians.

We have centuries old songs, poems, our culture, folklore, food and everything about this place and now even our very existence are getting denied by ignorant fools like you. Ofc i know you are not alone for that but almost all the balkanites denies our existence in there. This is just sad and unfair.

They are probably Torbesh,Im mean I know that the ones currently there declaring to be Turks are in fact Torbesh but I also think that the ones you speak about are Torbesh as well,because many Torbesh from those regions moved to Turkey and probably got turkinized.

Bugarash 1893

03-14-2013, 01:53 AM

Well according to the Macedonian Census of 2002, out of the 3000 or so turks only 474 spoke Turkish as a mother tongue. See below:

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_9zM3vukkmEnlKVpkwqykbY5l.png (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=qBl9M89ywU)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_r7MUlMTPpWIxsF0JcntXnrk.png (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=erKflAB3Yz)

http://www.stat.gov.mk/Publikacii/knigaX.pdf

Though to be honest I could be looking at the wrong municipality. The publication is a bit weird..

Thats for Rostushe alone.
Old administrative counties,when Mavrovo and Rostushe were two indipendent municipalities.

1996-2004

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Municipalities_of_Macedonia_1996-2004.svg

2004-now

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Opstini_vo_Makedonija.png

Bugarash 1893

03-14-2013, 02:14 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx-hONW4CBQ

LOL

This is bulgarian music right there.
Bulgarian rhythm and everything.
This music is so bulgarian that at a moment I thought she was singing in bulgarian.

Onur

03-14-2013, 02:25 AM

They are probably Torbesh,Im mean I know that the ones currently there declaring to be Turks are in fact Torbesh but I also think that the ones you speak about are Torbesh as well,because many Torbesh from those regions moved to Turkey and probably got turkinized.
Well, probably you don't know but we have 10s of different folk songs with Turkish lyrics about most of the cities in Macedonia. Here are some;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmN9QmCUmNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scXntLizkmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0viKqlyR5J0

All these are from Ottoman Macedonia, before 1912. If these people were supposedly bulgarian muslims, then why everything was in Turkish?

Onur

03-14-2013, 02:28 AM

LOL

This is bulgarian music right there.
Bulgarian rhythm and everything.
This music is so bulgarian that at a moment I thought she was singing in bulgarian.
haha, i should have guessed that you can even claim that too.

Anyway, i am not fancy involving a stupid discussion with you. You can continue to believe that this is bulgarian music.

iNird

03-14-2013, 02:34 AM

Well, probably you don't know but we have 10s of different folk songs with Turkish lyrics about most of the cities in Macedonia. Here are some;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmN9QmCUmNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scXntLizkmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0viKqlyR5J0

All these are from Ottoman Macedonia, before 1912. If these people were supposedly bulgarian muslims, then why everything was in Turkish?

Strong logic is strong lol.

Maybe they are Turkish....because they are singing to a Turkish audience?

:chin:

Arbërori

03-14-2013, 02:36 AM

Strong logic is strong lol.

Maybe they are Turkish....because they are singing to a Turkish audience?

:chin:

:lol: Seems that Candan can't decide what she is then? :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODHaiXCEhcg

Bugarash 1893

03-14-2013, 02:40 AM

Well, probably you don't know but we have 10s of different folk songs with Turkish lyrics about most of the cities in Macedonia. Here are some;

All these are from Ottoman Macedonia, before 1912. If these people were supposedly bulgarian muslims, then why everything was in Turkish?

LOL
Why dont you sing about Anadolu then?
Nothing nice about it eh?
Mud made houses,desert like terrain,Kurds everywhere...not much poetic for you eh?
Yeah,I know,I know.
I know that you Turks are bound of us.
These regions is where everything you have came from,the birthplace of your europeanism-the little that you have.
These regions are your pride.
Am I right Onuroglu?
I know,felt it myself,just say to a shopkeeper in Istanbul that you are from Bulgaria or Macedonia.

Maybe these songs are turkish,but Im telling you that large waves of muslim Slavs settled in Turkey in the period 1912-till today.
Only in the population exchange between you and Greece all of the Bulgarian muslim population left Macedonia.

You are probably another janissarie because you yourself claim to be from Petric.