evon
10-30-2012, 09:54 PM
So this thread is going to be dedicated to investigating the Indian connection to Russians and Russian based peoples (especially Volga Tatars) that has been slightly touched on over at 23andme.com.
I thought i would open a thread here on TA first since i need critics to spot flaws in my logic and evidence, so please, if you see any, let the heads rolls :D
The theory is based on a few points which i will investigate further as time goes by;
- Indian 4gp Ancestry finder (shared DNA segments with people of various nationalities) cousins among peoples in Russia (Especially Volga Tatars), my own family connection to both Volga Tatars and India, which i assume is related to this theory, and hence give me a great opportunity to investigate it using all means available to me, such as Relative finder matches (Usually larger segments then Ancestry finder).
- Known Instances of Indians in Russian history, i will focus on Indian merchants, and Roma primarily, will also check out potential Central Asian links in this regard.
Firstly lets present the evidence at hand today:
My family's Indian 4gp matches (My grandmother and me from left to right, in that order):
http://imageshack.us/a/img89/3327/66001939.jpg
Historical presence of Indian Merchants in Russia:
INDIAN PRESENCE IN ASTRAKHAN
Archival records reveal that the Indian presence in Russia dates back to the 17th century when Astrakhan, a trading-port in the delta of the Volga river by the Caspian Sea was incorporated into Moscow state. By then, Indian traders had reached as far as Isfahan in Persia, Kizlyar in the North Caucasus and Astrakhan in Russia.
The Archives in Astrakhan, Moscow and St. Petersburg contain significant information on the activity of Indian merchants and artisans. We learn that the first Indians from Sindh and Multan arrived in Russian Astrakhan in 1615-1616. In 1624 a special trading post for Indian merchants was erected in Astrakhan along with separate posts for Armenian and Persian merchants.
Historical records show that at one point more than one hundred Indian merchants and their servants lived in the region. They were dealers in Astrakhan textiles, jewelry and medicines. In 1645 an Indian merchant dared to go as far as Kazan and Moscow, trading his goods with great success. As a result, 25 more Indian traders came to Astrakhan via Persia. In 1650 Indian merchants sold their goods in Yaroslavl, not far from Moscow. Thereafter the Russian Tsar, Alexei Mikhaylovich, invited Indian artisans to Moscow to introduce a textile industry there.
An English traveler named Forster has described Indians who traveled from India to Astrakhan to propagate their religion – Buddhism, Hinduism and Zorastrianism. An Armenian merchant refers to Indians there as cow-worshippers, suggesting that they were mostly Hindus and not Muslims. The Russian archives too contain information on certain Indians who had their living quarters and a temple, along with a trading center, in Astrakhan. There are records of Indians marrying Soviet Tartar women.
Although Moscow allowed Indian traders to follow their religious rites, including that of cremation of dead bodies, and a Hindu temple existed in the city, the number of professing Hindus diminished and some of them were converted to Islam. Others, however, retained their Hindu faith. They even poured water from the Ganges into the Volga, and considered the Volga as their local Ganges since that ceremony. They freely prayed to their gods and conducted religious rituals despite hostility from Muslims and Christians who considered them as pagans. Moscow had given the local administrative head instruction to allow Hindus to follow their rites of passage.
By the early 18th century Indian merchants lived not only in Astrakhan, but also in Moscow. Russian chroniclers reported the presence of Hindu traders in Moscow in the18th century.
Along with the expansion of their trade to central Russia and to the capital city of St. Petersburg many Hindu traders converted to Orthodox Christianity. It was common for them to acquire Russian Christian names and surnames. In 1740s we have several records of ‘Russian Indians’ with surnames Ivanov, Feodorov etc. Later on they were assimilated into the Russian population. It may be surmised that some Russians from Astrakhan with typical Russian surnames but somewhat South Asian features may have Indian ancestors. Yet, in the 19th century few of the locals there could claim Indian heritage.
Indian diamond trade was known then in Moscow and St. Petersburg. While it is impossible to speak of a continued Indian presence, Astrakhan Indians are known to have dispersed to Kazan, Moscow, and St. Petersburg and their descendents became assimilated, although, it may be assumed that some families of ‘Russian Indians’ still keep memories of their South Asian ancestors.
The Soviet era also witnessed the emergence of an Indian Communist community in Moscow and Leningrad in 1920s-1930s. From the mid-1950s onwards significant numbers of Indian students began attending educational institutions in Moscow, Leningrad, Sverdlovsk, Kursk etc. A few managed to remain in Russia after completing their education. They did not form a diaspora, and the temporary presence of Indians in major Russian cities was not questioned because of strict immigration and residence rules.
The situation however changed with the collapse of the Soviet Union. Although economic hardships made post-Soviet Russia unattractive for foreign students who depended on stipends, the wealthy and the adventurous found Russian conditions suitable, especially since Russian immigration and residence rules were lax. As a result the new wave of Indians who came were mostly students. But only the medical students made education their primary aim; the others found an opportunity to combine their study abroad with a small business, often in retailing, which they would continue after graduation.
That was how an increase in Indians -- some of them successful and rich, others petty traders -- came about in the Russian Federation. Rich Indian businessmen were involved in tea and garments trade, construction industry, and most recently have invested in St. Petersburg and Moscow breweries. New projects involve Indian investment in Russian oil fields, particularly in Sakhalin Island in the Russian Far East and in steel production.
http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=111904091126
Now looking at my own collected records of North Eurasian ties from a few months ago (its not been updated since, but will update it probably within 2012):
-Norwegian samples with Ties across Eurasia; 21, samples with matches in India/Pakistan; 8.
-Volga Tatar samples with ties across Eurasia; 5, samples with matches in India/Pakistan; 3.
-Faeroese sample 1, Indian segments 1.
Relative finder matches from my own family that is potentially Indian/Volga Tatar in origin;
-Multiple cousins with mtDNA linage G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28mtDNA%29) (one confirmed Volga Tatar).
-A cousin with YDNA O1a1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O1_%28Y-DNA%29).
-A cousin with YDNA D1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D1_%28Y-DNA%29).
-Multiple cousins with mtDNA R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28mtDNA%29).
plus, various other matches with Eurasian YDNA and mtDNA linages that i will add later, need a break now:)
I thought i would open a thread here on TA first since i need critics to spot flaws in my logic and evidence, so please, if you see any, let the heads rolls :D
The theory is based on a few points which i will investigate further as time goes by;
- Indian 4gp Ancestry finder (shared DNA segments with people of various nationalities) cousins among peoples in Russia (Especially Volga Tatars), my own family connection to both Volga Tatars and India, which i assume is related to this theory, and hence give me a great opportunity to investigate it using all means available to me, such as Relative finder matches (Usually larger segments then Ancestry finder).
- Known Instances of Indians in Russian history, i will focus on Indian merchants, and Roma primarily, will also check out potential Central Asian links in this regard.
Firstly lets present the evidence at hand today:
My family's Indian 4gp matches (My grandmother and me from left to right, in that order):
http://imageshack.us/a/img89/3327/66001939.jpg
Historical presence of Indian Merchants in Russia:
INDIAN PRESENCE IN ASTRAKHAN
Archival records reveal that the Indian presence in Russia dates back to the 17th century when Astrakhan, a trading-port in the delta of the Volga river by the Caspian Sea was incorporated into Moscow state. By then, Indian traders had reached as far as Isfahan in Persia, Kizlyar in the North Caucasus and Astrakhan in Russia.
The Archives in Astrakhan, Moscow and St. Petersburg contain significant information on the activity of Indian merchants and artisans. We learn that the first Indians from Sindh and Multan arrived in Russian Astrakhan in 1615-1616. In 1624 a special trading post for Indian merchants was erected in Astrakhan along with separate posts for Armenian and Persian merchants.
Historical records show that at one point more than one hundred Indian merchants and their servants lived in the region. They were dealers in Astrakhan textiles, jewelry and medicines. In 1645 an Indian merchant dared to go as far as Kazan and Moscow, trading his goods with great success. As a result, 25 more Indian traders came to Astrakhan via Persia. In 1650 Indian merchants sold their goods in Yaroslavl, not far from Moscow. Thereafter the Russian Tsar, Alexei Mikhaylovich, invited Indian artisans to Moscow to introduce a textile industry there.
An English traveler named Forster has described Indians who traveled from India to Astrakhan to propagate their religion – Buddhism, Hinduism and Zorastrianism. An Armenian merchant refers to Indians there as cow-worshippers, suggesting that they were mostly Hindus and not Muslims. The Russian archives too contain information on certain Indians who had their living quarters and a temple, along with a trading center, in Astrakhan. There are records of Indians marrying Soviet Tartar women.
Although Moscow allowed Indian traders to follow their religious rites, including that of cremation of dead bodies, and a Hindu temple existed in the city, the number of professing Hindus diminished and some of them were converted to Islam. Others, however, retained their Hindu faith. They even poured water from the Ganges into the Volga, and considered the Volga as their local Ganges since that ceremony. They freely prayed to their gods and conducted religious rituals despite hostility from Muslims and Christians who considered them as pagans. Moscow had given the local administrative head instruction to allow Hindus to follow their rites of passage.
By the early 18th century Indian merchants lived not only in Astrakhan, but also in Moscow. Russian chroniclers reported the presence of Hindu traders in Moscow in the18th century.
Along with the expansion of their trade to central Russia and to the capital city of St. Petersburg many Hindu traders converted to Orthodox Christianity. It was common for them to acquire Russian Christian names and surnames. In 1740s we have several records of ‘Russian Indians’ with surnames Ivanov, Feodorov etc. Later on they were assimilated into the Russian population. It may be surmised that some Russians from Astrakhan with typical Russian surnames but somewhat South Asian features may have Indian ancestors. Yet, in the 19th century few of the locals there could claim Indian heritage.
Indian diamond trade was known then in Moscow and St. Petersburg. While it is impossible to speak of a continued Indian presence, Astrakhan Indians are known to have dispersed to Kazan, Moscow, and St. Petersburg and their descendents became assimilated, although, it may be assumed that some families of ‘Russian Indians’ still keep memories of their South Asian ancestors.
The Soviet era also witnessed the emergence of an Indian Communist community in Moscow and Leningrad in 1920s-1930s. From the mid-1950s onwards significant numbers of Indian students began attending educational institutions in Moscow, Leningrad, Sverdlovsk, Kursk etc. A few managed to remain in Russia after completing their education. They did not form a diaspora, and the temporary presence of Indians in major Russian cities was not questioned because of strict immigration and residence rules.
The situation however changed with the collapse of the Soviet Union. Although economic hardships made post-Soviet Russia unattractive for foreign students who depended on stipends, the wealthy and the adventurous found Russian conditions suitable, especially since Russian immigration and residence rules were lax. As a result the new wave of Indians who came were mostly students. But only the medical students made education their primary aim; the others found an opportunity to combine their study abroad with a small business, often in retailing, which they would continue after graduation.
That was how an increase in Indians -- some of them successful and rich, others petty traders -- came about in the Russian Federation. Rich Indian businessmen were involved in tea and garments trade, construction industry, and most recently have invested in St. Petersburg and Moscow breweries. New projects involve Indian investment in Russian oil fields, particularly in Sakhalin Island in the Russian Far East and in steel production.
http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=111904091126
Now looking at my own collected records of North Eurasian ties from a few months ago (its not been updated since, but will update it probably within 2012):
-Norwegian samples with Ties across Eurasia; 21, samples with matches in India/Pakistan; 8.
-Volga Tatar samples with ties across Eurasia; 5, samples with matches in India/Pakistan; 3.
-Faeroese sample 1, Indian segments 1.
Relative finder matches from my own family that is potentially Indian/Volga Tatar in origin;
-Multiple cousins with mtDNA linage G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28mtDNA%29) (one confirmed Volga Tatar).
-A cousin with YDNA O1a1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O1_%28Y-DNA%29).
-A cousin with YDNA D1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D1_%28Y-DNA%29).
-Multiple cousins with mtDNA R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28mtDNA%29).
plus, various other matches with Eurasian YDNA and mtDNA linages that i will add later, need a break now:)