Origin and ancient History of red hair

[Fire Haired]

http://www.sott.net/image/image/s7/144189/full/2174760229_97f4a24bc1.jpg

Red hair is extremely rare it only goes above 1% west of Poland, north of central Spain, and south of northern Scandinavian and Finland and also over 5% in Volga Russia. Besides that it is almost non existent. Red hair is definitely the most unique hair color in the world. Originally all Humans had black hair so having red hair is just as crazy as having blue or green hair.

I think most people would be suprised that red hair is mentioned in ancient writting and that there was a Roman emperor who was a redhead. That out of the very little over 3,000 year old human remains were we can tell hair color two were redheads and found in tarium basin China. There is actulley alot alot of info to help figure out the origin and history of red hair. There is no doubt red hair goes very far back in pre historic times. I know this is not ancient history but 3 of the first 7 USA presidenst had red hair(Thomas Jefferson 3, James Monroe 5, Andrew Jackson 7)


Connection with Russia and spread of Germanic Italo Celtic and Indo Iranian languages
Here is a map of R1b in Europe and close areas in Africa and Asia compared to the map of red hair which only includes areas with 1% or more red hair.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpghttp://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

R1b orignalley probably came from around Iran 18,000ybp. And pounced around the middle east till R1b L23 or a older subclade migrated to southern Russia and Ukriane possibly with proto Indo European language 6,000-8,000ybp. So by around that time you would have had the first white people with mainly R1b. These people were the ones who then spread to western Europe starting 5,000ybp spreading Germanic and Italo Celtic languages and R1b L51-L11 click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe) it is a thread were i explain it.

So if it is true that the Germanic Italo Celts spread red hair to western Europe or at least raised the percentages over 1% they would have gotten that red hair from a non R1b group of people around Russia or Ukraine 8,000ybp.

That mean there was a very red hair 15-30% people lived around Russia and Ukraine at least over 8,000ybp. Then when they adopted Indo European languages spread it to western Europe starting 5,000ybp.

Another ancient Indo European people migrating out of the Russia and Ukraine area starting 5,000ybp who probably had alot of red hair are proto Indo iranian speakers. BY looking at Y DNa R1a Z93 in modern Indo Iranian people in the mid east and India the ancestral forms R1a S224 and R1a M417 are actulley pretty popular in parts of eastern Europe. And the age estimates put the spread of R1a Z93 in asia from 5,000-3,500ybp so in the bronze age. Since the 1950's the most belived theory about spread of Indo European languages say proto Indo iranian languages spread out of Russia and Ukriane area 5,000-3,500ybp so it is pretty much a perfect match. DNA from suspected early Indo Iranian cultures in asia show they had Y DNa R1a1a(probably deeper subclade), light skin, and mainly light hair and eyes. Also 7 Y DNa samples from 4,000 year old mixed European east asian mummies in tarim basin china has Y DNA R1a1a. So there was a huge migration and settlement of European people throughout central asia from 5,000-3,500ybp and many differnt groups like Sycthians stayed and survived till the early middle ages.

3,400 and 3,000 year old mummies in tarim basin China had red hair. There is really no doubt they were Indo Iranian speakers since there were no other European eople in that part of asia back then. Also ancient Greek historian Herdotus arund 400bc described the Sycthians and huge Indo Iranian group that took up most of central asia as having bright red hair. Also the Tocherians aka Yuezhi who were Indo Europeans in west china but probably not Indo Iranians. Art depicting them alot of times show's them with red hair.

3,000 year old Charcehn man 6 feet 6 inches tall. brown head hair and red facial hair.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3JGoW_RDEZbl-BldCUf18MKMLlCn4ClajLH6Ri4Y5lyu695C7jg

Painting of red haired Tocherian/Yuezhi and a Chinese I could not get a date i remeber one said 6th century ad it is probably somewhere around that time.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5uw6hoI9i1rz47u5o1_500.jpg

The Tocherians/Yuezhi were conquered in the 600-700;s by Turkic speaking tribe the Ughurs who i think came from around Mongolia. But since Indo Iranian speakers and east asians have been mixing there for about 5,000 years. There will sometimes be east asian looking people with red hair and total european east asian mixes in the Ughur's.

Here is a example of Ughur with red hair.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTuIMNBvrCNLYOJySnNNRFW7qWUAgLi2 ZfBAXiwbhP4G7nL0WhLhttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_BfC6j03vee0/TPTNXScE92I/AAAAAAAAH2A/90QttH61t1U/uyghurboy_thumb%5B3%5D.png?imgmax=800


Red hair today still exists in Indo Iranian speaking ethnic groups. When proto Indo Irnain Abashevo and Sinshta cultures spread out of northern Yamna culture in Russia 5,000ybp. They started tos pread throughout asia including all the areas from Iraq-India. Many groups like Sycthains did not inter marry that much but in the middle ages were conquered by Turkic tribes so they dont exist anymore. Today Indo Iranian laguages are dominte from iran-india and very popular in Iraq, Tukrey, and syria. Even though they were absorbed into dark haired ethnic groups in that area red hair did not completely die out.

Pashuten redhead and his dad in Afghanistan.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36876&d=1377735145

Kalash redhead in Pakistan
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36877&d=1377735298

Kurdish redheads in Syria
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36878&d=1377735386

Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri Iraqi military commander and was vice president of the Iraqi revloutionary Command Council. Until his leader Saddam hussien was defeated by America. I could not find info if he is from Indo Iranian speaking Kurds in Iraq but there is no doubt his red hair is from the same type of Indo Iranian people like Sycthians who migrated out of northern Russia 5,000ybp.
http://www.20min.ch/diashow/61444/61444-PVmd9aTqFVKubQ1X08qN1Q.jpg

So there are two or at least one Indo European speaking people(maybe not Germanic Italo Celts) who migrated out of Russia Ukraine area starting about 5,000ybp both had pretty high amounts of red hair over 1% at the very very least. Also the Udmurt people in central Russia are the only non Germanic Italo Celtic and non indo Iranian speakers to have over 1% they actulley have the highest in the world 15-20% which is more evidence for a connection with Russia and red hair.

So with just that information i think that there were people who had over 1% red hair living around Russia and Ukraine over 10,000ybp maybe even 20,000-30,000ybp. But i dont like these red hair maps because most only count areas with 1% or more. red hair is extremely recessive if there is red hair in Ukraine it wont show if red hair does exist acroos Europe and can be proven that it does not come from inter marriage with western Europe that would give a much older age to red hair and give a better idea about it's origin.

Mysterious Non European red hair

When i am talking about non European redheads i don't mean albinos from India or those people in pupae new gunie who have red hair from totally different genes. I mean real redheads with super pale skin and alot of times freckles with the same genes for red hair as European redheads. The Kablye Berbers in the atlas mountains of Moorco are known for having red hair. I already made a thread about this i heard a missionary who went to moorco and because he had pale skin they though he was a kablye. He went to the atlas mountains and said they do look pretty European and there were some redheads. The Kablye are a very big ethnic group they are one of the biggest berber speakeing ethnic groups. Berbers take up most of northwest africa and if there was never arab muslim invasion berber language would probably be spoken in much more of north Africa.

Riffian man with blonde head hair and red facial hair in Mooroco. Riffian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riffian_people) are another Berber ethnic group and i guess they also are known for European features like Kablye.
http://images3.hiboox.com/images/1108/c7b5yvsi.jpg
There are some Kablye tribes with 18% blonde hair so obviously they do get their red hair and pale skin from Europeans orignalley but when and who. It makes sense that they live literally right at the border of Africa and Europe but were did they get the blonde hair i doubt from Spanish. It seems they inter married with a group of Europeans like the Indo Iranians mainly blonde haired and high amounts of red hair it is very rare to find a peope group with alot of blonde and alot of red hair together.

I made a theory that it came there from Iberia after the last ice age 15,000ybp. Because 19,000-10,000ybp there were huge migrations out of Iberia with mtDNA H1, H3, V, and U5b1 they also went to North Africa and 12,000 year old mtDNA V samples in the atlas mountains prove it happened that long ago. Maybe the people in Iberia back then went extinct or migrated to other areas in Europe and are not the main ancestors of modern Iberians so it is possible they had some red hair i dont know. Besides that i cant think of any idea what group of Europeans inter married with them.

The Samartien redhead mystery is my favorite. The Samartiens are mentioned in the New testment of the Bible they were orignalley Jews but worshipped other Gods then Persians got them to inter marry with Assyrians then later they formed their own form of Judism i dont know the full story.

They only bred with each other which causes alot of sickness there are only about 700 left. I dont know for sure but i think ever since they started so over 2,000ybp they only bred with each other. There have been aust DNa tests on every single Samartien alove not one had a single drop of European blood. They were typical people from the Syria - Palestine area. Then i saw pictures of them during passover and many looked very European it seemd like more were pale skinned like Europeans than brown skinned. On the news they also showed a little Samartien boy with red hair and freckles and said that red hair is popular for them since they do not inter marry.

Redhead Samartien boy during passover.
http://static2.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/600-0/photos/1303134632-samaritans-passover-sacrifice-at-mount-grizim_662410.jpg

Other Smartiens. So u can get an idea of what i mean by how suprisngly pale they are.
http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/thumb/4/42/Samaritans-with-torah.jpg/250px-Samaritans-with-torah.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/232/479880525_5f887df3ff.jpg

I cant believe that did not become famous how is there 100% mid eastern people with red hair. If this is completely true that shows red hair is from before the European family formed 30,000-60,000ybp. It at least originated in the mid east 50,000-70,000ybp.

Red hair in my opinon may have orignated in Russia-Ukriane 12,000-30,000ybp or in another group of Europeans probably over 20,000ybp. Or it originated in the middle east with early Caucasians 50,000-70,000ybp. The first people to have over 1% red hair would deifntley have lived in Paleolithic Europe so over 11,000ybp there were at least some in Russia and Ukriane maybe also in other areas of Europe. Anyone who had red hair has at least great or great grandparents who also had red hair. So every red head is apart of a constant line of redheads going back at least over 15,000ybp to the first redhead. Also both parents need the gene for red hair for one of their children to have red hair. It is pretty common for someone to have either blonde or brown head hair but red facial hair since the genes for red hair work differently.

Red hair in ancient historic times

The reason i said ancient HISTORIC times. Is because most people dont understand that histroic times are extremity young it only means times in history were we have written records. So the vast majority of the world has been recorded very recentley. The first writting that we still have records of and can see what the people are saying is around 6,000 years old in the mid east. So of course there is a very very low chance red hair will be mentioned. The Greeks are the first people in Europe were we have their ancient writing and can understand it. They started to write around 3,500ybp. The oldest mention of red hair is from around 500bc so 2,500ybp by Greek poet Xenphanes here is a quote "
Men make their Gods in their own image, those of the Ethiopians are black and snob nosed, those of the Thracian's have blue eyes and red hair". In Greek art Thracens are ofentlley depicted as red heads. The Thracian's lived in modern day Bulgaria so just north of Greece.

Fresco on Thracian grave in central Bulgaira. Many Thracian graves had the inscription Rufus meaning redhead.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Thrace-ostrusha.jpg/250px-Thrace-ostrusha.jpg

Red hair today in Bulgaria does not reach 1% and since they are extremely dark haired and it is hard to believe they were known for red hair in ancient times. The Greeks may have exaggerated the red hair. Just saying i have meet to Romanian redheads which is right next to Bulgaria so it deifntley exists in that area.

The next oldest reference i could find for red hair also comes from Greeks. This one is from the mid 400'sBC by Greek Historian Herodotus. I dont know that much about him but it seems he really liked to tell the history of people from around the world about their culture and who they were. Here is a quote
"The Budni are a large and powerful nation: they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair". The Budni were a Sythian tribe i already explained about the red hair in Indo Iranain speaking tribes of bronze-iron age central Asia. Right now i cant find any direct sources but i do remeber looking at ancient Roman writing mentiong red hair in the Gauls of central Europe and France. Also they said the Picts and other Insular Celts of Britain were very red haired.

Tacitus around 100ad wrote a book about the Germanic tribes. He wrote everything he could about who the Germans were. He said that they all had the same basic phiscal appearance
"All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion". So there is another ancient mention of red hair.

The oldest depictions of red hair i could find is at least 2,284 years old. It is from the Estrucans who were a powerful civilization in central Italy from 764bc-264bc. Based on the fact that almost all of their paintgs depict people as brown skinned and that ancient writers say they orignalley came from Anatolia not Italy. Means they were not white or at least orignalley and probably had 0% red hair. In Etruscan paintings there might be like two white people and 10 brown skinned people. The white people are probably from Italic or Celtic tribes in that area who are visiting Estrucans. The redhead was probably from a Italic or Celtic tribe. I already mentioned how red hair was probably spread to west Europe by Germanic Italo Celts and red hair is 1-3% in central Italy and a little south of were Estrucans lived.
http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Med/Etruscan_tomb/Tomb_painting20.jpg

Cato the Elder born in 234bc died in 149bc. He was 100% from Latins who were Italic tribes from around Rome. According to ancient writing when they mention his phiscal appearance they say he had red hair and grey eyes. He came from the general population and his family were known for their service in the Roman military. He was a very traditional Latin and was known as a grumpy old man. He fought in the war against Hannibal when he was 17 and is a very important person in Roman history. He has the oldest written records that we know for sure were written by someone with red hair.

Bust of Cato the elder.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3a/f8/43/3af843d92828d70889a31ae919b7e54e.jpg

The Suetoniu book " Life of the twleve Ceasars". Says that Emperor Vitellius the 8th Emperor of Rome was a redhead. He was Emperor from April 17, 69ad - December 20 69ad.

ancient Sculpture of Vitellius from what i know the only redhead Roman emperor.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Pseudo-Vitellius_Louvre_MR684.jpg/480px-Pseudo-Vitellius_Louvre_MR684.jpg

From looking at the mummy of Pharaoh Ramses 11. Ruler of Eygpt from 1303 BC – July or August 1213 BC. Accroding to this link they determined he was a redhead.


Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy's scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy's hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute hennasolution; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair's original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramesses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramesses' natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]

Balout and Roubet were under no illusions as to the significance of this discovery, and they concluded as follows:

"After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa." [Balout, et al. (1985) 383.]

[Peikko]

Do you have any theory how the red hair became almost complete isolated to two separate parts of Europe?

[Fire Haired]

Do you have any theory how the red hair became almost complete isolated to two separate parts of Europe?

Well red hair at 1% is completely isolated to western Europe and volga Russia. My theory is that red hair was only over 1% in some people around RUssia and Ukriane over 10,000ybp. then When Indo European languages spread and they spread from that area over 1% red haired people spread with Germanic Italo celtic and Indo Iranian languages.

I think something important to remember with figuring out the origin of red hair. Is that the distribution of red hair shows no connection with the distribution of fair hair. For example Finnish and Baltic people have mainly blonde hair but less than 1% red hair probably 0% at least orignalley before inter marriage with Germanic people. What this probably means is that red hair originated in a people group with no blonde hair or really low amounts and that blonde hair developed in a people group with no red hair.

[Peikko]

Yep, the blonde hair seems to be unrelated to red hair.

[Smeagol]

The Udmurts have the highest percentage of red hair, 14% I think.

[Smeagol]

The Pharaoh Ramses II had red hair.

[Gaijin]

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg


This map, Eupedia's map, is incorrect. ↑
Maciamo, the author of such cartography, should start submitting refrences for his work. Since he attributed <1% for Portugal.

Portugal scores a tax of 3% -5% Redheads accoding to anthropologist Eusébio Tamagnini in "A Pigmentação dos Portugueses" (1916/1933), followed by anthropologist António Mendes Correia in "A Origem dos Portugueses" (1919) and professor Luís de Pina's National Census of 31 (1931).

Portugal itself has a village entitled "A dos Ruivos", after the redheads.

Quick examples of contemporary celebrities can be found in here (http://portuguesephenotype.blogspot.pt/2013/07/gallery-of-portuguese-celebrities.html).

[orangepulp]

My bro in law has red beard and light brown scalp hair. Kind of weird.

[Peikko]

Some black people have red hair.

[Fire Haired]

Horatio i really doubt he was a redhead. What really suprises me is King tut had Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L11 which is only found in western europe. Some Egyptiens inter married with Italo Celtic or Germanic tribes or inter married with another people group who before inter married with Germanic Italo Celts. If Ram really had red hair that could be the source.

[Fire Haired]

The Udmurts have the highest percentage of red hair, 14% I think.

true Irish, Scottish, and Welsh have overall over 10% around 10-15%. I think they put Udmurts in the same catgory but udmurts i read have a little more and scots have 13% so maybe 14% or more.

[Balmung]

A ginger is a mythological creature doomed to wander the earth in search of a soul. If you come in contact with a ginger do not make direct eye contact lest you don't plan on keeping your soul.

[Artek]

The way i know this is multiple writings form Ancient Greeks including historian herdotus described Indo Iranian speakers in central asia as red haired and blue eyed they did were not people just dying their hair they were liget redheads. same sythcians were described as red haired by Herdotus. Also even though we have less than 20 remains of early Indo Iranians speakers were we can tell hair color two had red hair but were mummies in tarium basin china. The oldest is a woman from 3,400ybp but i cant find any images to show.
Mummies found in Tarim Basin were mostly brown/nut-brown-haired and R1a which shows no coorelation with red hair in any case.


"The Budni are a large and powerful nation: they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair". The Budni were a Sythian tribe i already explained about the red hair in Indo Iranain speaking tribes of bronze-iron age central Asia. Right now i cant find any direct sources but i do remeber looking at ancient Roman writing mentiong red hair in the Gauls of central Europe and France. Also they said the Picts and other Insular Celts of Britain were very red haired.
As above, probably mostly a brown hair. Otherwise, Scythians must have been heavily R1b but that's very unlikely.


Tacitus around 100ad wrote a book about the Germanic tribes. He wrote everything he could about who the Germans were. He said that they all had the same basic phiscal appearance "All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion". So there is another ancient mention of red hair.
I bet most of Germanics were either brown/blond or reddish-blonde haired with red hair being a minority.


Cato the Elder born in 234bc died in 149bc. He was 100% from Latins who were Italic tribes from around Rome. According to ancient writing when they mention his phiscal appearance they say he had red hair and grey eyes.
It doesn't mean that the Latins were looking mostly like Cato the Elder.

Red hair was never very common, that's the reality. Red hair in ancient raports = brown hair.
True red hair could just have been slightly more common in specific areas than they are today.

[Anglojew]

I think you mean Eurapids for Indo-Iranians not Europeans.

[Fire Haired]

Some black people have red hair.

I know i have seen some. Many black people also have lightish skin it is mainly from British people who raped Black slaves. I have seen red haired black people they all had light skin. I would guess it is because two black parants possible had the red hair gene inside of them but of course were by far mainly black but their kid got red hair but mainly black ancestry and features. There is some lightish skinned people in sub shara Africa too

Look at black griffen he is half white half black. His mom is a redhead and he has reddish hair. It could also be a weird mix up of genes that cause their hair to be a reddish color.
http://ethnicelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/Blake_GriffinKSR-010441_watermark.jpg

[Smeagol]

Some black people have red hair.

Maybe if they're mixed.

[Smeagol]

Horatio i really doubt he was a redhead.


Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy's scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy's hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute henna solution; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair's original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramesses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramesses' natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]

Balout and Roubet were under no illusions as to the significance of this discovery, and they concluded as follows:

"After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa." [Balout, et al. (1985) 383.]

[Roy]

Horatio i really doubt he was a redhead. What really suprises me is King tut had Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L11 which is only found in western europe. Some Egyptiens inter married with Italo Celtic or Germanic tribes or inter married with another people group who before inter married with Germanic Italo Celts. If Ram really had red hair that could be the source.

Could be but it still sounds unlikely.

[Smeagol]

Cato the Elder born in 234bc died in 149bc. He was 100% from Latins who were Italic tribes from around Rome. According to ancient writing when they mention his phiscal appearance they say he had red hair and grey eyes. He came from the general population and his family were known for their service in the Roman military. He was a very traditional Latin and was known as a grumpy old man. He fought in the war against Hannibal when he was 17 and is a very important person in Roman history. He has the oldest written records that we know for sure were written by someone with red hair.

Another red haired Roman, was Emperor Vitellius.

[Fire Haired]

Mummies found in Tarim Basin were mostly brown/nut-brown-haired and R1a which shows no coorelation with red hair in any case.

I know they were mainly brown haired those are the 4,000 year old ones. I am talking about a woman from 3,400ybp and man from 3,000ybp they did no DNA testing. Also the 4,000 year old tarium mummies had almost all Mongliod mtdna haplogroups they were a European mongliod mix. Near by the tarim basin 3,800-3,400 year old DNA from Adoronvo culture also had Y DNa R1a1a but just about all Caucasian mtDNA haplogroups and mainly blonde hair just like Scythian remains and Scythian were described as red haired and their culture descended form Adornovo so i connected the dots.

U do know R1a is just a Y DNa haplogroup passed down from father to son. It does not tell full ancestry only ur direct male line. So u have indian r1a people Russian r1a people it does not define who u are. R1a in Europe shows no correlation with red hair so what Balto Slavic languages were probably spread by people with a diff ancestry than Indo Iranians.



As above, probably mostly a brown hair. Otherwise, Scythians must have been R1b but that's very unlikely.

we have y dna samples from sycthians and their ancesor cultures. They had Y DNA R1a1a and mainly blonde hair and light eyes. Sycthians were INdo Iranans. Indo Iranian languages began in Sinshta and Abashevo culture around 4,000-5,000ybp and spread acroos central Asia. Like all Indo European language families their source is from around Russia, Ukriane, and Caucus they came from northern Yamna culture. The reason Indians and Iranians have so much R1a is because they get that from Indo Iranians speakers that spread there over 3,000 years ago. So not a suprise all Sycthian remains had R1a1a. The specific Indo Iranian subclade is R1a1a1b2 Z93 Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283.

click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89686-Yamna-culture-source-of-Indo-Iranian-and-Balto-Slavic-languages-and-their-R1a)



I bet most of Germanics were either brown/blond or reddish-blonde haired with red hair being a minority.

We dont need to wonder what the Germanic tribes looked like their descendants are still alive. Also Germanic is not a care it is a language. Indo European languages took off around Russia, Ukriane, and Caucus. GErmanic Italo celts with r1b l23 most likley spread through southeast Europe and landed in GErmany by 5,000ybp. Then Italo Celts and Germans split Germanic speakers spread to northern Germany, netherlands, and southern Scandnavia(including Denmark). Most of their ancestry is from pre Germanic speakers in that area. So Germanic speakers in Norway have a mainly different ancestry than Germanic speakers in Berlin. click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe)

So there is not a exact percentage of hair colors for germanic speakers.



It doesn't mean that the Latins were looking mostly like Cato the Elder.

I never said they did they were exactley the same as people in that area of Italy today and red hair is 1-3%.

[Fire Haired]

I think you mean Eurapids for Indo-Iranians not Europeans.

The proto Indo Iranian speakers lived somewhere in Russia and were European. I have no idea what Eurapids means.

[Kiyant]

Many kyrgiz and uyghurs have red hair.

[Fire Haired]

I could not find any info if Emperor Vit had red hair but there is ancient writing which talks about one of his servant boys who had red hair. We should not be surprised since red hair 1-3% in most of Italy.

[Peikko]

Most of the pre-Indo-Europeans are blond, that's probably where the real Germanics got it from.

[Fire Haired]

Many kyrgiz and uyghurs have red hair.

Because of Indo Iranain speaking tribes like Sycthians who lived in that area over 4,000 years ago. And seem to have gone extinct and conquered by Turkic tribes migrating out of around Mongolia in the early middle ages. Uyghurs are Turks who conquered the Yuezhi/Tocherians in tarium basin china the same people that were said by chinese to have red hair and i showed ancient art showing a redhead Tocherian. Also 3,400 and 3,000 year old red haired mummies in tarium basin China and that Indo Iranian tribes had been there for over 4,000 years and they had probably anywhere from 3-15% red hair. Is defintley the source of Kyrgiz and Uyghurs red hair

[Proto-Shaman]

Because of Indo Iranain speaking tribes like Sycthians who lived in that area over 4,000 years ago. And seem to have gone extinct and conquered by Turkic tribes migrating out of around Mongolia in the early middle ages. Uyghurs are Turks who conquered the Yuezhi/Tocherians in tarium basin china the same people that were said by chinese to have red hair and i showed ancient art showing a redhead Tocherian. Also 3,400 and 3,000 year old red haired mummies in tarium basin China and that Indo Iranian tribes had been there for over 4,000 years and they had probably anywhere from 3-15% red hair. Is defintley the source of Kyrgiz and Uyghurs red hair
Pipe dream.

[Smeagol]

I could not find any info if Emperor Vit had red hair but there is ancient writing which talks about one of his servant boys who had red hair. We should not be surprised since red hair 1-3% in most of Italy.

It's written in Suetonius' book, ''Lives of the 12 Caesars''.

[Fire Haired]

alright i belive u now here is another mention of red hair in ancient Latins from the same book.
Of the Domitian family, two branches acquired distinction, namely the Calvini and the Ahenobarbi. The founder of the Ahenobarbi, who first bore their surname, was Lucius Domitius (http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/SuetindexBCD.htm#DomitiusLuciusFounder), who was returning from the country one day, so they say, when a pair of youthful godliketwins (http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/SuetindexOP.htm#Pollux) appeared and told him to carry tidings of victory (at Lake Regillus, c498BC) to Rome, news that would be welcome in the City. As a sign of their divinity, they are said to have stroked his face and turned his beard from black to the colour of reddish bronze. This sign was inherited by his male descendants, the majority of whom had red beards.

[Fire Haired]

Pipe dream.

what is a pipe dream the DNA found in Sycthians and Adornovo culture(3,800ybp) were nearly identical even in mtDNA haplogroups. U have Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2a L342 since it seems u say u are from central asia u probably get it from Scythians or another related group of Indo Iranians. There is no doubt u have redhead ancestors too. Same with all Indo Iranian speakers.

[Proto-Shaman]

what is a pipe dream the DNA found in Sycthians and Adornovo culture(3,800ybp) were nearly identical even in mtDNA haplogroups. U have Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2a L342 since it seems u say u are from central asia u probably get it from Scythians or another related group of Indo Iranians. There is no doubt u have redhead ancestors too. Same with all Indo Iranian speakers.
I doubt they were Indo-Iranian...
http://f4.s.qip.ru/12ssF4vYV.png

[Fire Haired]

My bro in law has red beard and light brown scalp hair. Kind of weird.

where is he from Turkey? the only explanations i can think of is he gets it from inter marriage with Kurds who are INdo Iranian speakers they take up most or about half of the population in eastern Turkey. Or maybe red hair is orignally from the mid east and became more popular in Europeans ancestors. Like pale skin (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91397-Supposedly-Euro-light-skin-genes-are-popular-in-all-Caucasins-and-exists-in-about-all-Humans)

[Fire Haired]

This map, Eupedia's map, is incorrect. ↑
Maciamo, the author of such cartography, should start submitting refrences for his work. Since he attributed <1% for Portugal.

Portugal scores a tax of 3% -5% Redheads accoding to anthropologist Eusébio Tamagnini in "A Pigmentação dos Portugueses" (1916/1933), followed by anthropologist António Mendes Correia in "A Origem dos Portugueses" (1919) and professor Luís de Pina's National Census of 31 (1931).

Portugal itself has a village entitled "A dos Ruivos", after the redheads.

Quick examples of contemporary celebrities can be found in here (http://portuguesephenotype.blogspot.pt/2013/07/gallery-of-portuguese-celebrities.html).

Ot seems like these people came up with similar conclusions as Maciamo.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3669/redhairineurope.png


http://yarr.me/c/502/12/the-ginger-infection.png

These people did not
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18uodnxwdaf3ojpg/original.jpg

[Fire Haired]

Most of the pre-Indo-Europeans are blond, that's probably where the real Germanics got it from.

True there is no doubt the high amounts of blonde hair throughout europe have been there since Mesloithic-Paloeithic Cro magnon times over 10,000ybp. Poland has much or more blonde hair than Germany russia has more blonde hair than germany same with Lithuania, Estonia, all of Scandinavia. I dont get why people associate blonde hair with Germans there one of many people in Europe with high amounts of blonde hair.

[Peikko]

Germans are actually quite swarthy. However, they are mostly germanized Keltics and slavs. The original Germanics were very blond indeed.

[Artek]

...

[Artek]

Germans are actually quite swarthy. However, they are mostly germanized Keltics and slavs. The original Germanics were very blond indeed.
You can't prove how blonde they were. We have just modern populations but they are descended from late medieval ones in most cases, especially in northern Europe where such population growth is quite recent.

[ButlerKing]

Huh???????? The urdmurts who have 35.1% Mongoloid admixture have the highest % of red hair???:confused:

[Lábaru]

I'm pretty sure that in Iberia the place with more redheads is Alicante and Valencia followed by the rest, 1% seems accurate.

[Artek]

...

[Corvus]

My sister is red haired, I always envied her for that.
I am black haired unfortuntatly. I always regarded this hair colour as intriguing.

[Gaijin]

Ot seems like these people came up with similar conclusions as Maciamo.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3669/redhairineurope.png


http://yarr.me/c/502/12/the-ginger-infection.png

These people did not
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18uodnxwdaf3ojpg/original.jpg

Authored by who? Paint users?

A replica, of a replica... I wonder who copied who. This leads to a compilation of false publicity that might seem legit to some.

I may start making maps as well...

[Artek]

I have no doubt that those maps are biased.

[rhiannon]

Most of the pre-Indo-Europeans are blond, that's probably where the real Germanics got it from.

Who are the pre-Indo-Europeans?

[Peikko]

Who are the pre-Indo-Europeans?

The people who lived in Europe before Indo-European languages spread to the region (they are associated with haplogroup I1).

[Liwanu the Great]

Once a Red Haired FBI Woman came to our Remote Ranch on the Frontiers of New Mexico. My White FBI Man who is the Fox was working with her to find out The Truth. The White Devil wanted to conceal the horrifying White Man practice of Killing Aliens. The only Aliens in Indian America are the White Devils who stole our Land. But we shall rise again with the help of the Sneeky Fox and Red Haired White Devil. There is no hope non Indian-Americans. The Truth Is Out There. Blessings of the Sneeky Fox.

[Loki]

I have no doubt that those maps are biased.

Why? :confused: Seems realistic to me.

[Manifest Destiny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0TOd2jDNvU

[YeshAtid]

Jews have it quite frequently

[Artek]

Why? :confused: Seems realistic to me.
I don't know how they've gathered data from some areas but whole Poland should be covered with 1% ratio. Also, some southern users stated that this maps are aren't right and underrepresent red-haired element in such Italy or Iberia.


The people who lived in Europe before Indo-European languages spread to the region (they are associated with haplogroup I1).
Currently, all pre-Indoeuropeans found belong either to G,F* or to I2/E haplogroups.
Otzi (haplo G) was confirmed as a brunet.

We don't have an Y-DNA and pigmentation data from old Northern Europe, though. But now, it's a too far fetched theory without proofs.

[Hevo]

The people who lived in Europe before Indo-European languages spread to the region (they are associated with haplogroup I1).

What about the people who carried N1c1?(Comb Ceramic Pottery) Were they also blond haired?

[ButlerKing]

Kabyle berbers have higher percentage of blonde than Southern Europe and they have 5 - 15% Sub-Saharan DNA.

Udmurt have 35.1% Siberian/Mongoloid DNA and have the highest percentage of red hair.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9338/udmurtpeoplered.jpg

[Peikko]

What about the people who carried N1c1?(Comb Ceramic Pottery) Were they also blond haired?
Baltic Finns seem to be, but I don't know about the other ethnic groups.

[rhiannon]

The people who lived in Europe before Indo-European languages spread to the region (they are associated with haplogroup I1).
Are they associated with particular subraces?

[Peikko]

Are they associated with particular subraces?
Do you mean phenotypes? In modern nations the I1 peaks among the Nordic nations.

[Grace O'Malley]

Does anyone have a proper study to prove that Udmurts have the amount of red hair stated?

New map showing where red hair genes are concentrated in Britain and Ireland. This is from Britainsdna

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/24/article-2401346-1B7041FC000005DC-552_634x757.jpg

What I found interesting was in order for a child to develop red hair, both parents must be carriers of one of these red-hair gene variants but even then there is only a 25 per cent their child will be born ginger.

The gene behind red hair can multiply a person's risk of melanoma by 100, US researchers have found.

http://www.bmihealthcare.co.uk/hospital/news?p_region_id=81&p_news_id=3677

It is obvious why red hair is so rare and in many areas is low in numbers. Conditions would have to be very cloudy and sunlight hours very low. It seem obvious why the British Isles is the area where there are more carriers of the red hair gene than anywhere else.

[rhiannon]

Do you mean phenotypes? In modern nations the I1 peaks among the Nordic nations.Yes, I mean phenotypes. The Nordid subrace is, as I understand, primarily neolithic, so they can't be this ancient group of light-haired people you're referring to, can they?

Phenotypes that might be most heavily associated with the I1 Haplogroup?

[Peikko]

Yes, I mean phenotypes. The Nordid subrace is, as I understand, primarily neolithic, so they can't be this ancient group of light-haired people you're referring to, can they?

Phenotypes that might be most heavily associated with the I1 Haplogroup?

Probably Börreby(?)

[Fire Haired]

The people who lived in Europe before Indo-European languages spread to the region (they are associated with haplogroup I1).

It is alot more complicated than that. Sure Scandinavians and central Europeans i think had alot more I1 before Germanic (some used to be Celtic) languages with R1b L11 spread there. 6,000 years ago when most Europeans were farmers Y DNa G2a would have probably been dominate at least in Spain, France, and Italy. There also would have been E V13 and maybe some J1 and J2. Before farming spread so like 10,000ybp Europeans were probably 100% hg I. Hg I2a1a in western Europe and I2a1b in eastern Europe probably spread just 10,000-15,000ybp at the most so what was there before that. It seems like specific hg I subclades in regions of Europe spread not that long ago at the most 10,000-15,000ybp.

[Peikko]

It is alot more complicated than that. Sure Scandinavians and central Europeans i think had alot more I1 before Germanic (some used to be Celtic) languages with R1b L11 spread there. 6,000 years ago when most Europeans were farmers Y DNa G2a would have probably been dominate at least in Spain, France, and Italy. There also would have been E V13 and maybe some J1 and J2. Before farming spread so like 10,000ybp Europeans were probably 100% hg I. Hg I2a1a in western Europe and I2a1b in eastern Europe probably spread just 10,000-15,000ybp at the most so what was there before that. It seems like specific hg I subclades in regions of Europe spread not that long ago at the most 10,000-15,000ybp.
Actually Germanic languages did originate in Scandinavia.

[Proto-Shaman]

Actually Germanic languages did originate in Scandinavia.
Actually in Corded Ware.

[Constantine13]

According to Dr. D'Adamo, the Blood Type Diet guy, there's an association between red-headed (and/or green eyed) Caucasians and traits like shoveled incisors and the B/AB blood type--part of his Nomad Genotype.

[Fire Haired]

Actually Germanic languages did originate in Scandinavia.

Probably but its ancestral languages migrated from central Europe then probably formed into Germanic language during the Nordic bronze age 3,500-4,000ybp in either Denmark or far southern Swedan and Norway. Or it could have begun around the Netherlands and northern GErmany at the same time.

[Graham]

It is a genetic mutation like blue eyes. That would have a higher probably of surviving best in the least sunniest areas. Without protection, it would be a hard living, in sunny climates.

[Peikko]

Probably but its ancestral languages migrated from central Europe then probably formed into Germanic language during the Nordic bronze age 3,500-4,000ybp in either Denmark or far southern Swedan and Norway. Or it could have begun around the Netherlands and northern GErmany at the same time.
Yes, probably as an influence of Indo-Europeans to indigenous Scandinavians (I1-people).

[Szegedist]

I am very curious why is there an anomalous region in the Urals..

[Graham]

Does anyone have a proper study to prove that Udmurts have the amount of red hair stated?

New map showing where red hair genes are concentrated in Britain and Ireland. This is from Britainsdna

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/24/article-2401346-1B7041FC000005DC-552_634x757.jpg

What I found interesting was in order for a child to develop red hair, both parents must be carriers of one of these red-hair gene variants but even then there is only a 25 per cent their child will be born ginger.

The gene behind red hair can multiply a person's risk of melanoma by 100, US researchers have found.

http://www.bmihealthcare.co.uk/hospital/news?p_region_id=81&p_news_id=3677

It is obvious why red hair is so rare and in many areas is low in numbers. Conditions would have to be very cloudy and sunlight hours very low. It seem obvious why the British Isles is the area where there are more carriers of the red hair gene than anywhere else.

Interesting, was hoping they would bring this out. It would also be related to the freckliest skin. Thought it would have been the Highlands & South East the other way round. ach well.

[Fire Haired]

It is a genetic mutation like blue eyes. That would have a higher probably of surviving best in the least sunniest areas. Without protection, it would be a hard living, in sunny climates.

i dont know how true that is. Sure every human used to have brown eyes but isnt everyone born with blue eyes then it goes to brown. I doubt blue eyes helps in un sunny areas or is bad in sunny areas. Most people in the southern USA have light eyes and they do fine they also have the highest amount of red hair because of their Scotch Irish ancestry they have 7% and redheads are not dying off. I know modern etchnology helps but in the appechian mounts the 100% Scothc Irish aka orignal hillbillies have 10-15% red hair like Irish and Scottish. They have been living there since the mid 1700's and i doubt their technology gave them any better protection then hunter gather technology, and how does modern technology help anyways.

Honestly evolution seems impossible defintley major natural selection. I know animals change but how it seems so impossible and some changes make no sense.

[orangepulp]

where is he from Turkey? the only explanations i can think of is he gets it from inter marriage with Kurds who are INdo Iranian speakers they take up most or about half of the population in eastern Turkey. Or maybe red hair is orignally from the mid east and became more popular in Europeans ancestors. Like pale skin (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91397-Supposedly-Euro-light-skin-genes-are-popular-in-all-Caucasins-and-exists-in-about-all-Humans)
He is not Kurd at all. He is from the Black Sea region of Turkey, city of Samsun.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Samsun_in_Turkey.svg/800px-Samsun_in_Turkey.svg.png

He is very fair and has lots of freckles.

[Graham]

Melanoma Map UK & Ireland. South East Scotland correlates with the red hair gene well. Same with Ireland.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/prod_consump/groups/cr_common/@nre/@sta/documents/image/crukmig_1000img-13010.jpg

[Fire Haired]

He is not Kurd at all. He is from the Black Sea region of Turkey, city of Samsun.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Samsun_in_Turkey.svg/800px-Samsun_in_Turkey.svg.png

He is very fair and has lots of freckles.

Then i have no idea how to explain that maybe it is has nothing to do with euro inter marriage. I have family members with brown skin as dark as Pakistani but even after dna tests it shows they are typical Europeans i dont know how to explain that either.

[Artek]

Yes, probably as an influence of Indo-Europeans to indigenous Scandinavians (I1-people).
That indigenous Scandinavians have basal I1 clades found South of a Baltic Sea and not in Scandinavia ;)

[Peikko]

That indigenous Scandinavians have basal I1 clades found South of a Baltic Sea and not in Scandinavia ;)

Maybe it's better to use indigenous North Europeans.

[Artek]

Maybe it's better to use indigenous North Europeans.
Definitely. Because I am aware that only native Scandinavians of that period were N1c or Q (and that's a very likely scenario)

[Fire Haired]

Definitely. Because I am aware that only native Scandinavians of that period were N1c or Q (and that's a very likely scenario)

I am so sick of hearing this dont u realize both Y DNA Q and N1c are MONGLIOD. all remains of scandnavians at that time are Caucasian. Do u really think that almost all Y DNA in Norway and swedan came only 5,000-3,500ybp. That somehow all the other paternal lineages disappeared. The age estimates for I1 are total BS. Dont put so much trust in them the age estimates dont match up with ancient cultures and migrations.

[Fire Haired]

That indigenous Scandinavians have basal I1 clades found South of a Baltic Sea and not in Scandinavia ;)

What do u mean by this what is basal i1 clades can u please give names. Also the idea I1 in Scandinavia is from the baltics makes no sense how do u explain that central European I1 has mainly dif subclades than Scandinavia but is around 15%. It does not come from recent Germanic migrations down south. If u go by the Baltic theory then u cant explain central european I1. The Baltic idea is just trying to find a explanation for the pathetic age estimates of I1.

[Artek]

I am so sick of hearing this dont u realize both Y DNA Q and N1c are MONGLIOD. all remains of scandnavians at that time are Caucasian. Do u really think that almost all Y DNA in Norway and swedan came only 5,000-3,500ybp. That somehow all the other paternal lineages disappeared. The age estimates for I1 are total BS. Dont put so much trust in them the age estimates dont match up with ancient cultures and migrations.
Search for the mtDNA of the ancient North and Northeast Europeans. And what will you find along with Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic U haplogroups? Well, mongoloid Z, mongoloid C etc. So these MONGOLOID lineages were present there before the Indo-European invasions and coorelate with other MONGOLOID Y-DNA like N1c among Finns, Balts and Northernmost Scandinavians. I don't exclude some old haplogroup I but in contemporary populations we have mainly I1 which dating is relatively young.

There is a thread about I1 at Forumbiodiversity where most clades and materials are cumulated, I don't have an access to this forum for now but I'll try to fix that.

I also previously believed that I1 is Nordic.When I finished with Eupedia and started to read other things I quickly realised that it's not an indigenous haplogroup but it must have expanded somewhere in neolithic period.


What do u mean by this what is basal i1 clades can u please give names. Also the idea I1 in Scandinavia is from the baltics makes no sense how do u explain that central European I1 has mainly dif subclades than Scandinavia but is around 15%. It does not come from recent Germanic migrations down south. If u go by the Baltic theory then u cant explain central european I1. The Baltic idea is just trying to find a explanation for the pathetic age estimates of I1.
Because Scandinavia had sparser population than Central Europe and a founder effect had happened most likely. Majority of I1 probably came with Corded Ware culture and then evolved there into various SNP's. Which clades I have on my mind?
M253* (like M253P), DF29,M227, Z63(which is rather spread by Corded Ware too, just named as a "German" for some reason).

I think that dating by Ken Nordtvedt is fair enough. If there is any ancient I1 somewhere, aDNA research should find it out. With knowledge that we have today, there is no reason to think that I1 is particularly old.

[Peikko]

Then i have no idea how to explain that maybe it is has nothing to do with euro inter marriage. I have family members with brown skin as dark as Pakistani but even after dna tests it shows they are typical Europeans i dont know how to explain that either.
Seriously, dude, why do you pretend to be white??

[Fire Haired]

Search for the mtDNA of the ancient North and Northeast Europeans. And what will you find along with Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic U haplogroups? Well, mongoloid Z, mongoloid C etc. So these MONGOLOID lineages were present there before the Indo-European invasions and coorelate with other MONGOLOID Y-DNA like N1c among Finns, Balts and Northernmost Scandinavians. I don't exclude some old haplogroup I but in contemporary populations we have mainly I1 which dating is relatively young.

That is not true u find 8 out of 11 are caucasin. 10 are U (U4=4, U2e=2, U5a=1), H=1, the there are 3 mongliod C1's. They are 7,500 years old ad from a place i russia that borders Finland.This is exactley the time Uralic langauges,kunda culture, Y Dna N1c are suppose to have arrived so it is not a suprise there was minority mongliod haplo groups like today. The for 3,500bp ons in the same area of russia 8 had caucasin U (U5a=6(U5a2), U4a1=2), 1 had Caucasin T, 12 had Mongliod groups C=8(C5=2),D=3, Z1a=4.

U cant deny though oldest human remians i scandnavia are caucasin if they were not obvisouly caucasin trust me it would be known. what u are saying is nuts that 5,000ybp scandnaiva was mongliod then suddenly they all diedwere are the mass mongliod skulls. plus why did uralic languages survive and why is n1c still popular if they were killed off. they would have been killed off in war so the men would have died first then why is mongliod male line n1c over 50% in finland. There was a mongliod C1 found in syria from 9,000ybp and two sub sharen L2a1 the rest were caucasin their skull shapes were caucasinbut so what if some did not have caucain mtdna. there are many caucasin mtdna hg's found in ancient chinese and mongolian remians so what it is because of sycthians and other indo iranians but it does not really mean anything.

just stop with the crap I1 has nothing to do with indo europeans. corded ware culture brought R1a1a1b1 Z283 and balto slavic languages 4,000-5,000. Nordic bronze age culture brought R1b S21 and all other R1b is from them or contact with other Germanic or Italo Celts. Do u ignore that scandnavia is in EUROPE and that the earliest remains are caucasin that the oldest settlments is in southern norway and swedan because the people came from central europe. hg I is the only for sure paleoithic and mesloithic lineage of europe wouldnt it make sense that i1 is what those early caucasins in scandnaiva from central europe had. age estimates have been proven time and time agian to be very conservative so very young. the age estimates for i1 are amazingly to young. the fact that finnish and sami are shown to be closest modern relatives to 7,000 year old hunter gather from spai and that they have the most of what most aust dna tets call north euro which is belived to be the oriigal paleothic aust group of europe and arrived over 30,000ybp.

that groups spread by farmers like med, south west asian, and west asian are very rare in finnish as if they have very little ancestry from neloithic and bronze age times. u should clcik on these links. it shows how finnnsih and sami are last true mesloithic-paleoithic europeans also that blonde hair most likely is from paleoithic europe or spread in paleothic europe and was very popular like it is in scandnavia and i guess baltic people. i think both can be used as evidence finnish and sami have little blood from non paleoithic-mesloithic europeans and that hg i1 arrived in scandnavia 11,000ybp.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91728-Theory-blonde-hair-origin-Paleolithic-Europe-and-possible-main-hair-color-of-Euro-s-over-10-000ybp

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90760-Sardine-Neloithic-Euro-s-Finnish-and-Sami-Mesolithic-Paleolithic-Euro-s

There is a thread about I1 at Forumbiodiversity where most clades and materials are cumulated, I don't have an access to this forum for now but I'll try to fix that.

I also previously believed that I1 is Nordic.When I finished with Eupedia and started to read other things I quickly realised that it's not an indigenous haplogroup but it must have expanded somewhere in neolithic period.


Because Scandinavia had sparser population than Central Europe and a founder effect had happened most likely. Majority of I1 probably came with Corded Ware culture and then evolved there into various SNP's. Which clades I have on my mind?
M253* (like M253P), DF29,M227, Z63(which is rather spread by Corded Ware too, just named as a "German" for some reason).

I think that dating by Ken Nordtvedt is fair enough. If there is any ancient I1 somewhere, aDNA research should find it out. With knowledge that we have today, there is no reason to think that I1 is particularly old.[/QUOTE]

i dont think his dating matches up with history, migrations in scandnavia and were the heck is the hg I that would have come 11,000ybp if it is not i1. U are trying to find a way for his dating to seem resonble. click here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpolishgenes.blogspot.com%2F2013%2 F04%2Fhundreds-of-prehistoric-scandinavian.html&ei=fGgiUpLdB-TeyAHOu4GABA&usg=AFQjCNGoKfHvqIgkmK3zHV9DI0flKdNNFA&sig2=HB2GHPmWuY9MqaUKxacQiA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc). THey will have many ydna samples from neloithic denmark including a 7,000 year old hunter gathern unless denmark was apart of the central euro world back then i except alot of i1 unless the farmer were forigners like Gok4 and that the hunter gathers are the real ancestors of modern danish. i defintley except i1 for the 7,000 year old hunte gather if they come back as i1 u haveto re consider what i have been sayig

[Fire Haired]

Seriously, dude, why do you pretend to be white??

my skin is as white as snow literally. there is brown skin in my family but dna testing have proven were european just we might have more mid eastern than average europeans which could explain the dark skin. on geno 2.0 my dad had 10% more med and 10% less north euro than people from were is ancestry is from. on the geno 2.0 med for some reason is very popular in the mid east they dont have specific mid eastern groups like west asian so that 10% med may be mid eastern. if he takes a test like globe13 we can see if he has more mid eastern than the average person from his ancestry. another weird thing is some dark skinned guys in my family grow some red facial hair.

[Peikko]

my skin is as white as snow literally. there is brown skin in my family but dna testing have proven were european just we might have more mid eastern than average europeans which could explain the dark skin. on geno 2.0 my dad had 10% more med and 10% less north euro than people from were is ancestry is from. on the geno 2.0 med for some reason is very popular in the mid east they dont have specific mid eastern groups like west asian so that 10% med may be mid eastern. if he takes a test like globe13 we can see if he has more mid eastern than the average person from his ancestry. another weird thing is some dark skinned guys in my family grow some red facial hair.
Interesting, so you have ancestry from Middle East or West Asia, which sometimes shows in your family members. I guess with also European ancestry, it's possible for people to have red facial hair, while having darker skin.

[Blackout]

My bro in law has red beard and light brown scalp hair. Kind of weird.

I have black hair myself, however i used to have some red hairs on the side of my face. I still get a small golden one that comes out! Wierd! ;)

[Artek]

i dont think his dating matches up with history, migrations in scandnavia and were the heck is the hg I that would have come 11,000ybp if it is not i1. U are trying to find a way for his dating to seem resonble. click here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpolishgenes.blogspot.com%2F2013%2 F04%2Fhundreds-of-prehistoric-scandinavian.html&ei=fGgiUpLdB-TeyAHOu4GABA&usg=AFQjCNGoKfHvqIgkmK3zHV9DI0flKdNNFA&sig2=HB2GHPmWuY9MqaUKxacQiA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc). THey will have many ydna samples from neloithic denmark including a 7,000 year old hunter gathern unless denmark was apart of the central euro world back then i except alot of i1 unless the farmer were forigners like Gok4 and that the hunter gathers are the real ancestors of modern danish. i defintley except i1 for the 7,000 year old hunte gather if they come back as i1 u haveto re consider what i have been sayig

We need Scandinavian Y-DNA from Neolithic Period (from cultures that predate Corded Ware) and from "Pitted Ware" hunters-gatherers too see which theory is right.

I don't exclude your point of view but I have ,in my oppinion, no reason to state that I1 was present in Scandinavia in Paleolithic/Mesolithic Period. Especially when surviving modern basal I1's aren't there.

[Fire Haired]

artex what do u mean by basal i1.

[Artek]

artex what do u mean by basal i1.
Very close to the I1-defining mutation or a defining mutation itself.

[Jackson]

A map of percentages of the population that are carriers of red hair (not actual percentages of redheads of course) in the British Isles:

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/Redhaircarriers.jpg

[Artek]

A map of percentages of the population that are carriers of red hair (not actual percentages of redheads of course) in the British Isles:

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/Redhaircarriers.jpg

I've read that even if both parents are being a carriers of such gene, there is only about 25% chance of having a red-haired kid.

[Jackson]

I've read that even if both parents are being a carriers of such gene, there is only about 25% chance of having a red-haired kid.

Yeah it's a pretty slim chance. For example my grandmother has one variant and nobody in my close immediate family has red hair, only one of my half-uncles sons and his daughter. And i think my half-uncles father had red or reddish hair.

[Fire Haired]

Yeah it's a pretty slim chance. For example my grandmother has one variant and nobody in my close immediate family has red hair, only one of my half-uncles sons and his daughter. And i think my half-uncles father had red or reddish hair.

both my parents had the red hair gene. Since one of my dad's parents had red hair and alot of red hair in her family her grandfather who came to america from western Norway had red hair he had 12 kids we know at least one of his daughters my great grand mother and her two kids had red hair. but the his other parent's whole family had i am pretty sure all brown hair going back to the 1800's.

My mom's family from what i know is mainly born blonde later turned brown, red, and then normal brown hair. all but one of her siblings married someone who had red hair in their intimidate family or cousins and uncles and aunts. out of 14 kids 6 had red hair. two have blonde hair but red beards. and one was born with reddish blonde hair which later turned brown.

I am sure on average it is a 1 and 4 chance though.

[Annihilus]

A map of percentages of the population that are carriers of red hair (not actual percentages of redheads of course) in the British Isles:

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/Redhaircarriers.jpg

is that rs1805007 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs1805007)? If so I am CT thus carry one copy

[Graham]

It comes from BritainDna, Allice already posted that map a few pages before Jackson.

Here is some information of the test.. http://www.britainsdna.com/products/red-head


Chromo2 Red-Head test is the most detailed available, testing for over 40 known gene variants of the MC1R gene. The melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) protein is a molecule on our cells related to melanin production within the cell. There are two kinds of melanin which can be produced – eumelanin and phaeomelanin and they each result in different pigmentation. If your cells produce mostly eumelanin you will likely have darker hair and a darker skin tone whereas if you produce mostly phaeomelanin you will likely have red or blond hair, a lighter skin tone, and freckles.

Chromo2 Red-Head will test you for all known red-head variants of the MC1R gene – including one that we discovered – and will thus inform you if you are a carrier of a red hair variant. We will tell you which variant(s) you carry and whether these confer a strong or weak possibility of having red hair.



http://www.britainsdna.com/theme/EarthsDNA/img/diagram/red-head-punnet.png
The Punnett Square to the left shows the recessive inheritance of red-head genes. In this graphic, both parents carry one copy of a red-head variant, represented by the lowercase, red r. There is a 25% chance that their offspring will have red hair (rr) and a 50% chance that their offspring will also carry a red-head variant (Rr). There is also a 25% chance that their offspring will not carry a red-head variant (RR). For a child to have red hair, both parents must be carriers of a red-head variant - if a red-head has children with a non-carrier, then their offspring will only carry the redhead variants, not be red haired. Everyone who carries one of the variants is a direct descendant of the first person ever to have it.

[Annihilus]

It comes from BritainDna, Allice already posted that map a few pages before Jackson.

Here is some information of the test.. http://www.britainsdna.com/products/red-head

rs1805007 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs1805007) is on MC1R and 23andme tests 15 snp's, but they only link this one to redhair. Interesting to know which ones they test overlap with 23andme.

[Graham]

Made a thread on that Anni. You should post your results also.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?71203-Freckling-amp-Red-Hair-Markers&highlight=rs1805007

Btw my cousin, on my Dad's side is a proper redhead. So the gene runs on his side.

[Starseed88]

I carry the red hair gene and the highest amount of red-haired people are in Russia and not in Scotland or Ireland like many believe and I have R1b matches in Germany and England which is interesting? My Great Grandpa had natural red hair with amber eyes which is uncommon among us Indians. While me, my dad and Grandpa just have chestnut ginger hair in our beards and my surname is Khaira, which is an odd surname for an Indian.

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12548871_10153845824844738_3594823649498056917_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=149f4c7e1002d0b499ab00e146124c0e&oe=5B64B0EE

[Septentrion]

The Udmurts have the highest percentage of red hair, 14% I think.

Urdmurtian minorities do have a high frequency of red hair that's true. However, Northwestern Europe especially the British Isles show a concentration of red hair which is unequalled.
Ireland = 10% - 30%
Scotland = 10% - 25%
Wales = 10% - 15%
England = 8%
Iceland = 6%
Norway = 5%
Belgium = 4%
Denmark, Sweden, France = 3%
The Netherlands = 2.5%
Germany, Austria, Finland = 2%

[Larali]

My hair has lots of red in it and my kids have golden-strawberry blonde hair, but I do not have the red hair gene. It baffles me.

[MinervaItalica]

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Med/Etruscan_tomb/Tomb_painting20.jpg

I think this pic is wrong, they are both Etruscans....

[Percivalle]

I think this pic is wrong, they are both Etruscans....

Yes, they are both Etruscans. The pic is a bullishit.

[Nanushka]

I carry the red hair gene and the highest amount of red-haired people are in Russia and not in Scotland or Ireland like many believe and I have R1b matches in Germany and England which is interesting? My Great Grandpa had natural red hair with amber eyes which is uncommon among us Indians. While me, my dad and Grandpa just have chestnut ginger hair in our beards and my surname is Khaira, which is an odd surname for an Indian.

Are you from northern India? Most probably you have ancestors from White Huns (Akhuns) that conquered and ruled the area for more that 150 years, they were described as red and blonde haired with blue eyes etc, like the Kushan before them. Kaira or Kayra is the name of main god (Tengri) of proto-Turks and Turkic peoples

[sailormoon]

The MC1R gene provides instructions for making a protein called the 1 melanocortin receptor, which produces two forms of melanin, eumelanin and pheomelanin. These MC1R genes reduce the ability of the melanocortin 1 receptor to stimulate eumelanin production, causing melanocytes to make mostly pheomelanin. People who produce mostly pheomelanin tend to have red or blond hair. Individuals with two MC1R alleles are generally red heads, and persons with 0 or 1 MC1R alleles are rarely red heads. MC1R variants are also linked to increased melanoma risk (Robles-Espinoza et al. 2016).




Melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) is a G protein-coupled receptor expressed on the surface of melanocytes that signals to downstream effectors, such as the microphthalmia-associated transcription factor, to regulate skin pigmentation and to control cell proliferation and apoptosis1. Melanin is generated by melanocytes in two major forms, pheomelanin and eumelanin. Unlike eumelanin, which is dark brown or black in colour, pheomelanin is red/orange, and is associated with type I/II skin, freckles, red hair and an inability to tan2. People with this phenotype are generally highly photosensitive, and prone to sunburn when exposed to ultraviolet (UV) light3.

Population sequencing studies have revealed a number of null or hypomorphic MC1R alleles, which are collectively referred to as R alleles and are strongly associated with the red hair and light skin phenotype4,5. Other missense variants are referred to as r alleles and are less strongly associated with this hair colour and complexion4,6. While R/R individuals are generally red heads, and persons with 0 or 1 R alleles are rarely red heads, pigmentation traits such as degree of tanning after repeated UV exposure3 and skin reflectance7 depend additively on the number of R alleles. In addition to regulating skin pigmentation, MC1R signalling has been reported to increase phosphorylation of DNA repair proteins, initiating the DNA damage repair process, and also to activate survival pathways8,9,10,11. As such, polymorphisms in MC1R have been linked to increased melanocyte apoptosis and inefficient DNA repair12. Collectively these factors link MC1R variants to increased melanoma risk6,13,14. In animal model systems, null alleles of Mc1r (Mc1re/e) have been shown to co-operate with BrafV600E to promote melanoma development via mechanisms including enhanced lipid peroxidation, a phenotype rescued on an albino mouse background owing to a lack of pheomelanin production15. This has led to the suggestion that loss of MC1R function, even in the absence of UV light, may be oncogenic. Despite these insights, it is still unclear whether MC1R germline variant alleles influence the genome-wide somatic mutation burden in melanoma.

In this study, we set out to establish the contribution of germline MC1R alleles to the somatic mutation landscape of sporadic melanoma. Mutations found in melanomas are predominantly C>T transitions due to the production of cyclobutane pyrimidine dimers (CPDs) in response to solar UV damage, but other mutational classes such as C>A transversions have also been observed16,17,18,19,20. Indeed, hotspot mutations in key driver genes, such as BRAF and KIT, are almost exclusively acquired as non-C>T mutations17. Our results indicate that individuals with one or two germline MC1R R alleles have a significantly higher somatic mutational load than individuals with no R alleles. This finding has implications for our understanding of melanomagenesis, as well as the identification of individuals at higher risk of developing melanoma.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms12064

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I have no doubt that those maps are biased.

Oh believe me they always are, most of these Hair Colour, Eye Colour etc maps have no source attached to them and are made by pseudo-anthro-tards that think that "The Further South you go the less likely you are to have Redhair so make it very unlikely" - when the actual truth is that it's more widespread than people believe, there is however, a certain point where it becomes unlikely but I know for a fact that Redhair is common among Levantines, many Syrians, Lebanese, Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic or Mizrahim also have Redhair.