How much do Sicilians and Maltese differ Genetically?

[daedal1]

I understand that Sicily has a 7-8% input from the moors? Is it higher in the Maltese, given that they speak a dialect of Maghrebi Arabic?

Are there any studies on the Maltese that compare Sicilians directly?

[Sikeliot]

None.

Maltese are recent migrants to Malta from mostly southern Sicily (Caltanissetta, Ragusa, Agrigento) and Palermo. Their ancestry from prior to that is minimal, I'd bet.

All of the most common Maltese surnames come from one part of Sicily or another, meaning they arrived there recently enough that Sicilians had the surnames they now have. If your surname is Camilleri, Spiteri, or Schembri your family was from Agrigento. If it is Vella or Falzon, your family comes from Caltanissetta. If you're a Scerri, your surname was originally Scerra and is from the town Gela on the southern coast.

The only difference is Maltese might have some recent British input, and less Greek than say northeastern Sicily like Messina, but overall Maltese are basically Sicilians.

[daedal1]

None.

Maltese are recent migrants to Malta from mostly southern Sicily (Caltanissetta, Ragusa, Agrigento) and Palermo. Their ancestry from prior to that is minimal, I'd bet.

All of the most common Maltese surnames come from one part of Sicily or another, meaning they arrived there recently enough that Sicilians had the surnames they now have. If your surname is Camilleri, Spiteri, or Schembri your family was from Agrigento. If it is Vella or Falzon, your family comes from Caltanissetta. If you're a Scerri, your surname was originally Scerra and is from the town Gela on the southern coast.

The only difference is Maltese might have some recent British input, and less Greek than say northeastern Sicily like Messina, but overall Maltese are basically Sicilians.

What do you think about the possibility of the 7-8% north african input predominantly coming from mixing during the roman empire, rather than the moorish invaders?

[Sikeliot]

What do you think about the possibility of the 7-8% north african input predominantly coming from mixing during the roman empire, rather than the moorish invaders?

It's on the paternal side. Autosomally it is about 4%.

Maltese would have it too, since they are directly descended from Sicilians.

[Hadouken]

arent maltese part arabs ?

[Sikeliot]

arent maltese part arabs ?


No. And their language is the Arabic from Sicily before the Moors were expelled hence its other name "Siculo-Arabic"

[Hadouken]

No. And their language is the Arabic from Sicily before the Moors were expelled hence its other name "Siculo-Arabic"

why are they so dark ?

[Gaston]

Maltese seem to be mostly displaced Sicilians. But individually, there's probably a few outliers with higher Northern European, North African etc ancestry (just like Sicily). However, to be clear, there is no way to tell because no autosomal study was done on Maltese and it's all based on a few Maltese individuals at ftdna and 23andme.


why are they so dark ?

They aren't dark for Southeastern Europe. And 4-10% Berber ancestry is invisible and doesn't darken anyone in Southern Europe. Actually, one of the most North African admixed Iberians (and Europeans), the Galicians, are lighter than their neighbors.

[daedal1]

They aren't dark for Southestern Europe. And 4-10% Berber ancestry is invisible and doesn't darken anyone in Southern Europe. Actually, one of the most North African admixed Iberians (and Europeans), the Galicians, are lighter than their neighbors.

Maybe that's because the original north africans/mozabites were closer to meds like sardinians in the first place? Modern Northern Africans obviously have huge SSA/SW Asian inputs, which is a big difference.

[Gaston]

Maybe that's because the original north africans/mozabites were closer to meds like sardinians in the first place? Modern Northern Africans obviously have huge SSA/SW Asian inputs, which is a big difference.

No, that's an internet myth.

[Peyrol]

Maltese seem to be mostly displaced Sicilians. But individually, there's probably a few outliers with higher Northern European, North African etc ancestry (just like Sicily). However, to be clear, there is no way to tell because no autosomal study was done on Maltese and it's all based on a few Maltese individuals at ftdna and 23andme.



They aren't dark for Southeastern Europe. And 4-10% Berber ancestry is invisible and doesn't darken anyone in Southern Europe. Actually, one of the most North African admixed Iberians (and Europeans), the Galicians, are lighter than their neighbors.

That's a good point that many people forget.

[daedal1]

No, that's an internet myth.

Why? Syrian/Leb Muslims have a massive arabian influence, and they aren't just 'arabized'.

[Gaston]

That's a good point that many people forget.
Exactly, people are talking as if there was a massive influx in Southern Europe while it's small and not the rule and also as if it was racially like mixing with Mongoloids or Negroids.
Even half Berbers look sometimes plain European.


Why? Syrian/Leb Muslims have a massive arabian influence, and they aren't just 'arabized'.
No, it wasn't massive for everyone but the Levant is just at the door of Arabia: the very far west that is Northwest Africa has next to nill Arabian ancestry. Also, Northwest Africans look homogenous both physically and genetically, which rules out massive admixture from SSA, the Middle East and Europe.
Of course, there is a minority of mixed black there but it's still a minority except in Southern Morocco and a few Moroccan cities where mixed people are significant to even the majority sometimes.

[YeshAtid]

The Phoenicians colonized Malta from about 1000 BC, bringing their Semitic language and culture. They used the islands as an outpost from which they expanded sea explorations and trade in the Mediterranean until their successors, the Carthaginians, were ousted by the Romans in 216 BC with the help of the Maltese inhabitants, under whom Malta became a municipium.[7]

[daedal1]

No, it wasn't massive for everyone but the Levant is just at the door of Arabia: the very far west that is Northwest Africa has next to nill Arabian ancestry. Also, Northwest Africans look homogenous both physically and genetically, which rules out massive admixture from SSA, the Middle East and Europe.
Of course, there is a minority of mixed black there but it's still a minority except in Southern Morocco and a few Moroccan cities where mixed people are significant to even the majority sometimes.

They look about as homogeneous as puerto ricans (they do look alike). Do you know of any studies on north african arabs? Is there any proof that the proto-afro-asiatics had SSA like modern north africans do?

[Virtuous]

why are they so dark ?

If I'm dark, you're a black hole.

[daedal1]

If I'm dark, you're a black hole.

At least he speaks a 'white language' :)

[Virtuous]

At least he speaks a 'white language' :)

Tunisians speak French, so do Haitians. I on the other hand speak two fully Indo-European languages and a half semitic-half indo european language. Doesn't change the fact that I'm more European genetically and culturally than any brown Kurd/Turk.

[Trun]

They aren't dark for Southeastern Europe.

They are. Southeastern Europe isn't only Crete and Rhodes.

[Gaston]

Compared to Bulgarians, certainly. But I generally use "Southeastern Europe" referring to autosomal results for Greece and mediterranean islands while Bulgaria is the "Balkans". It's probably confusing I agree.


They look about as homogeneous as puerto ricans (they do look alike). Do you know of any studies on north african arabs? Is there any proof that the proto-afro-asiatics had SSA like modern north africans do?

No, they are really homogenous I can tell you, there are tons of them in my country. And they don't look like Puerto Ricans (maybe 20-30% of them have the Rita Moreno looks) but they look like Middle Eastern people usually.
There are studies on North African "arabs", just google it: they seem to be undistinguishable from their berber counterpart.

We don't know yet where Afroasiatic comes from but it is clear there is an African stage, in Northeast Africa somewhere near the Red Sea in Egypt or Northernmost Sudan. There, there was an hybrid African-Eurasian population (like ALL afroasiatic people today, from Omotics to Ashkenazis Jews) that spread Afroasiatic branches East, South and West.
But Afroasiatic doesn't matter because the majority of Berbers' ancestry has nothing to do with Afroasiatic.


...

It's very hard to have continuity in such a small island in the middle of such a huge and densely populated region that is the Mediterranean. But it doesn't matter because Sicily too has, just like Malta, Carthaginian heritage. It's just that Maltese people retain a few more links with their semitic past through the Maltese language (from Siculo-Arabic).

[daedal1]

Tunisians speak French, so do Haitians. I on the other hand speak two fully Indo-European languages and a half semitic-half indo european language. Doesn't change the fact that I'm more European genetically and culturally than any brown Kurd/Turk.

Maltese is as semitic as Ottoman Turkish was Turkic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_turkish_language

Not tremendously more than a Turk, at least genetically. Pretty close to Cypriots, who are darker than Turks.

[daedal1]

We don't know yet where Afroasiatic comes from but it is clear there is an African stage, in Northeast Africa somewhere near the Red Sea in Egypt or Northernmost Sudan. There, there was an hybrid African-Eurasian population (like ALL afroasiatic people today, from Omotics to Ashkenazis Jews) that spread Afroasiatic branches East, South and West.
But Afroasiatic doesn't matter because the majority of Berbers' ancestry has nothing o do with Afroasiatic.



It's very hard to have continuity in such a small island in the middle of such a huge and densly populated region that is the Mediterranean.

Why don't Assyrians score SSA?

[Virtuous]

Maltese is as semitic as Ottoman Turkish was Turkic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_turkish_language

Not tremendously more than a Turk, at least genetically. Pretty close to Cypriots, who are darker than Turks.

Says you. However I should remind that back then when Malta was the most important strategic checkpoint in the Mediterranean, my ancestors fought for their European-ness and pledged loyalty to European culture and nothing else. They could have easily backstabbed the Hospitallier, just to have it "easy" later on under Ottoman rule, but they didn't.

The Siculo-Arab was imposed upon the Maltese population, and it was a limited one, in order for the Maltese not to be able to articulate and reason for an uprising, just limited Arabic - slave language. Later on when the Normans came and Kingdom of Sicily was established, many reverted to Italian. The problem was when the Nobility sought that it was profitable for them to let the lowest classes speak in Siculo-Arabic, so that they could have more power, it continued with the following settlers, and that is how the current Maltese language formed, also thanks to a person that gave the dialect a Latin alphabet of itself.

PRIOR to that all, Maltese people were Roman citizens, and spoke Roman. Even previously to that, it is said that Late Neolithic "Maltese" people spoke an unknown Indo-European language.

[Gaston]

Why don't Assyrians score SSA?
They don't score SSA usually but they do score 1 or a couple of % of African at lower Ks in ADMIXTURE runs and are African-shifted. But so do Armenians and Kurds indeed so Assyrians are at the Eurasian extreme of the Afroasiatic variation, so to speak.

The same way most Europeans don't score any East Eurasian usually but with better tools and lower Ks, there is significant East Eurasian ancestry in Europeans.

[daedal1]

Says you. However I should remind that back then when Malta was the most important strategic checkpoint in the Mediterranean, my ancestors fought for their European-ness and pledged loyalty to European culture and nothing else. They could have easily backstabbed the Hospitallier, just to have it "easy" later on under Ottoman rule, but they didn't.

The Siculo-Arab was imposed upon the Maltese population, and it was a limited one, in order for the Maltese not to be able to articulate and reason for an uprising, just limited Arabic - slave language. Later on when the Normans came and Kingdom of Sicily was established, many reverted to Italian. The problem was when the Nobility sought that it was profitable for them to let the lowest classes speak in Siculo-Arabic, so that they could have more power, it continued with the following settlers, and that is how the current Maltese language formed, also thanks to a person that gave the dialect a Latin alphabet of itself.

PRIOR to that all, Maltese people were Roman citizens, and spoke Roman. Even previously to that, it is said that Late Neolithic "Maltese" people spoke an unknown Indo-European language.

You mean 'Latin', I guess you're used to speaking a language named after an ethnicity, so you made that obvious mistake. :)

But, really, Sicilians score where ashkenazis do, and they aren't that far from turks (still closer to turks and druze 'arabs' :P than to most europeans) and maltese are at a similar level.
https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

[daedal1]

They don't score SSA usually but they do score 1 or a couple of % of African at lower Ks in ADMIXTURE runs and are African-shifted. But so do Armenians and Kurds indeed so Assyrians are at the Eurasian extreme of the Afroasiatic variation, so to speak.

The same way most Europeans don't score any East Eurasian usually but with better tools and lower Ks, there is significant East Eurasian ancestry in Europeans.

Do you have any sources for that data? Maybe Armenians or Kurds score some, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that for Assyrians.

[Libertas]

why are they so dark ?

They are not that dark for South Europeans.

[Virtuous]

You mean 'Latin', I guess you're used to speaking a language named after an ethnicity, so you made that obvious mistake. :)

But, really, Sicilians score where ashkenazis do, and they aren't that far from turks (still closer to turks and druze 'arabs' :P than to most europeans) and maltese are at a similar level.

I wouldn't generalize like that, some score more to the Greek/Levant, others more Western European. As a whole we are a Mediterranean, Latin (not Latino) and South European population, others can say what they like, but that is my opinion as a fully Malteser myself, and the rest of my kin.

[Kastrioti1443]

Maltese have a really high english genetic input and they look lighter than sicilians.

[Gaston]

Do you have any sources for that data? Maybe Armenians or Kurds score some, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that for Assyrians.

The source are not from Academia, since very little is done on this fiield, but from amateur projects like Eurogenes and Dodecad. The African-shift is clear in gobal PCA maps, just google it. For the African %, just google Globe13 Dodecad project and check out the spreadsheet.

[daedal1]

I wouldn't generalize like that, some score more to the Greek/Levant, others more Western European. As a whole we are a Mediterranean, Latin (not Latino) and South European population, others can say what they like, but that is my opinion as a fully Malteser myself, and the rest of my kin.

Well, Iberians and Albanians (to an extent) also sit on the Mediterranean, but they are much further away from Turks and Druze than Southern Italians and even Greeks are.

[daedal1]

The source are not from Academia, since very little is done on this fiield, but from amateur projects like Eurogenes and Dodecad. The African-shift is clear in gobal PCA maps, just google it. For the African %, just google Globe13 Dodecad project and check out the spreadsheet.

It's probably noise given how North Africans also score East Asian.

[Gaston]

It's not in their case because the African-shift is clear in the PCA.

[daedal1]

It's not in their case because the African-shift is clear in the PCA.

How do you know that effect isn't drift? Maybe the original non-SSA admixed proto-afro-asiatics drifted from other western asians, as well.

[Gaston]

Because all is organized according to the African-ness and in a East-West Eurasian axis in the first two dimensions. You also have very different populations overlapping btw, the overlap being just a matter of similar global mix.

I am still open to that idea of drift, but it's not very likely in my book.

[daedal1]

Because all is organized according to the African-ness and in a East-West Eurasian axis in the first two dimensions. You also have very different populations overlapping btw, the overlap being just a matter of similar global mix.

I am still open to that idea of drift, but it's not very likely in my book.

Other Western Asian populations could have been shifted by actual East Asian inputs, thus causing the pseudo-drift.

[Smaug]

Because all is organized according to the African-ness and in a East-West Eurasian axis in the first two dimensions. You also have very different populations overlapping btw, the overlap being just a matter of similar global mix.

I am still open to that idea of drift, but it's not very likely in my book.

You've got a Welsh word as your username, how interesting.

[Gaston]

Other Western Asian populations could have been shifted by actual East Asian inputs, thus causing the pseudo-drift.
Maybe, maybe not. It'll be clear in the near future with ancient DNA tested and new studies. The sure thing is the East Asian ancestry in all modern West Asians.


You've got a Welsh word as your username, how interesting.
It's nearly the same word in breton (c'hoari), that's why. :)

EDIT:
V yes, am part breton but only 1/8.

[Smaug]

Maybe, maybe not. It'll be clear in the near future with ancient DNA tested and new studies.


It's nearly the same word in breton (c'hoari), that's why. :)

:D

Nice, are you part Breton?

[Sikeliot]

Maltese will be similar to Sicilians if not for any recent British influence. And without the British influence they will not be close to Western Europeans, since Sicilians are not.

[Hadouken]

If I'm dark, you're a black hole.

wasnt talking about you and when i say dark i mean dark for europeans

but nice that you think you would be that important in my world

[Sikeliot]

Malta should be another province of Sicily if you ask me, or part of Agrigento since that is where most of them came from. I always thought it was a bit sad that Sicilians in Sicily don't have their independence, but a group of Sicilians who settled a neighboring island do.

And I mean that respectfully, not as an attack. :lol:

[Virtuous]

Malta should be another province of Sicily if you ask me, or part of Agrigento since that is where most of them came from. I always thought it was a bit sad that Sicilians in Sicily don't have their independence, but a group of Sicilians who settled a neighboring island do.

And I mean that respectfully, not as an attack. :lol:

Ever since unfortunate sets of historical events happened, Malta drifted away from the legacy with Italy and Sicily, which has been there since the pre-historic times, continued with the Roman Empire, Kingdom of Sicily, and pre WWII times. Maltese people and especially myself get along well with Italians, and have no problem with them mixing with us cause assimilation is not even an issue. Malta however is unique in it's own way, having Historical riches like none other, those already found and still to be discovered. An Island of History, battles, culture and identity - wanted and praised by great Statesmen such as Napoleon, Churchill and Hitler. It's a pity that current politics in Malta are making a mess out of the Island, transforming what is sacred and Historic that is supposed to teach us who we are into only a tourist attraction.

[Sikeliot]

Language aside I can't imagine Maltese culture differs much from the Sicilian. I personally think that there is very little continuity, either historically or genetically, in Malta from ancient times to now and that modern Maltese are just displaced Sicilians.

[Virtuous]

Language aside I can't imagine Maltese culture differs much from the Sicilian. I personally think that there is very little continuity, either historically or genetically, in Malta from ancient times to now and that modern Maltese are just displaced Sicilians.

Instead of integration with Italy, I'd go with the idea of a Europe of Regions, Malta would be part of the Latin group of peoples. For those that are interested in European geopolitics and pan-europeanism, I suggest you read 'Imperium Europa'.

[Sikeliot]

Instead of integration with Italy, I'd go with the idea of a Europe of Regions, Malta would be part of the Latin group of peoples. For those that are interested in European geopolitics and pan-europeanism, I suggest you read 'Imperium Europa'.


I don't agree with that idea, because I am pretty sure Bulgarians would not see any point in being lumped with Poles, or Sicilians with Portuguese etc. By linguistic group does not work.

[Virtuous]

I don't agree with that idea, because I am pretty sure Bulgarians would not see any point in being lumped with Poles, or Sicilians with Portuguese etc. By linguistic group does not work.

Regions would be clustered into groups according to ethno-linguistic legacy.

[Sikeliot]

Regions would be clustered into groups according to ethno-linguistic legacy.

I doubt everyone from Lisbon to Normandy to Sicily feels any connection with one another, though. Nor do I think people in St. Petersburg feel connected to people in Macedonia.

[Virtuous]

I doubt everyone from Lisbon to Normandy to Sicily feels any connection with one another, though. Nor do I think people in St. Petersburg feel connected to people in Macedonia.

I suggest you read the book before jumping to conclusions. The core of the idea is for regions to gain more autonomy, preserve local tradition and get along with neighbouring regions that are closest by ethno-linguistic relations. In such manner you're not only fortifying identity and sovereignty, but also eliminating possibilities of future fratricides.

[Sikeliot]

I suggest you read the book before jumping to conclusions. The core of the idea is for regions to gain more autonomy, preserve local tradition and get along with neighbouring regions that are closest by ethno-linguistic relations. In such manner you're not only fortifying identity and sovereignty, but also eliminating possibilities of future fratricides.

I think it's a terrible idea. Language groups changed in history too much, so I don't like the idea of wiping away everything that happened beforehand. If going strictly by linguistic affiliation you'd be lumped in with Iraqis and Yemenis, I am not sure you like the idea. So likewise I don't want to be lumped in with northern French people or Canarian Spaniards.

[Virtuous]

I think it's a terrible idea. Language groups changed in history too much, so I don't like the idea of wiping away everything that happened beforehand. If going strictly by linguistic affiliation you'd be lumped in with Iraqis and Yemenis, I am not sure you like the idea. So likewise I don't want to be lumped in with northern French people or Canarian Spaniards.

Certainly is a much brighter idea than the current mercantile EU. Speaking of French, Spaniards and Italian, the Idea is already being paved by 'Generation Identitaire'. The conflictual situation in the Middle East cannot be compared to Europe, which has much more reasons to be united in REAL diversity rather than conflicting on petty differences, meanwhile being overrun by third worlders. I believe it's the only viable solution if we do not want European peoples and cultures to perish.