Sardine the last of the European farmer race

[Fire Haired]

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Europe-diffusion-farming.gif
http://files1.sardegna-images.com/images/web_550x413/11/11480_sardinian_costumes.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=6Oj9el05enYz3M&tbnid=vd70nhVPTocTiM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sardegnavilla.it%2Ftravel-guide%2Fcostumes.cfm%3Fpdf&ei=cHtMUq6oAofuyQHM8oGIDQ&psig=AFQjCNFii5pCk4sSy5HszWpduCIQy2gTZQ&ust=1380830437456742)
In my opinion Sardinian people are the last of the European farmer race. What I mean is the people who spread farming acroos Europe and I think a good name is the farming race. Farming spread to Europe from the Near east mainly 6,000-9,000ybp(Neloithic age, (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNeolith ic&ei=IXtMUuWiJeamygHFu4HwAg&usg=AFQjCNHtAXW38QTse-BW6j6QkD2v5SEVjg&sig2=TsT-wJ0J8I7r4w50UL1WAg) Aust DNA from Gok4 about 5,000 years old Neolithic farmer in southern Sweden apart of Funnel beaker culture and of Otzie 5,300 years old copper age farmer in alps Italy showed extremely similar results. So far Aust DNa taken from farmers and hunter gathers in Europe living around the same time show they were to different people neither fit perfectly into a region or people group in Europe except for Sardine and the farmers.

This is so you get an idea of what I mean by the difference between hunter gathers and farmers aust dna results.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38104&d=1380743332

So the hunter gathers are overwhelmingly apart of the group North European in globe13. No one in Europe really has such high amounts of North Euro except Soumi and Finnish in Scandinavia. The farmers have majority Meditreaen in the globe13 which is most popular in southern Europe and specifically Sardine then far second Iberia. Click here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2) for globe13 results of 100's of populations around the world. Overall Sardine are the closest match to the farmers. They go by the same basic rules majoriy in globe13 majority Med 60-71%, North Euro 15-28%, Southwest Asian over 12%, west Asian over 5%. It may be hard to understand but it is obvious Sardine deifntley group with these farmers. It is hard to believe even after migrating as far north as Sweden they stayed pretty much completely pure of hunter gather inter marriage.

What is hard to understand when did the mix or whatever happen to make the regional percentages in Europe today. It seems unlikely but all of farmers Europe could have been in this farmer race Sardine are in while the hunter gathers I guess grouped more with Soumi and Finnish but there really are no modern Europeans that could perfectly group with the hunter gathers. Maybe spread of Indo European languages mainly out of Russia and Ukraine area raised North Euro in Europe. Also large amount of near eastern into southeast Europe and Italy in the last 3,000 years or so could be another reason. It would make sense to me before R1b1a2a1a2b S28 Italic tribes spread acroos Italy starting about 3,200ybp and the Near eastern inter marriage in the last 3,000 years Mainland Italians may have grouped with Sardine Otzie 5,300 years old copper age farmer from alps Italy did.

I think it is important to understand Sardine people are the closest relatives to these farmers and may be apart of a farmer race. To help figure out more things about Genetics'.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Personally I think they were part of an ancient maritime culture, but it's a well put together post.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Neolithic farmers in Scandinavia came out closest to Sardinians + Cyprus

http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-swedish-farmer-came-from-the-mediterranean-1.10541

Geneticists analysing DNA from Neolithic burial sites in Sweden have made a surprising discovery. The genetic make-up of one individual — a female farmer known as Gök4 — bears a startling similarity to that of modern-day Mediterraneans. And the woman's genome provides clues as to how agriculture spread across Europe.

“The farmer is most genetically similar to people living in Cyprus and Sardinia today,”

[Smeagol]

Neolithic farmers in Scandinavia came out closest to Sardinians + Cyprus

http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-swedish-farmer-came-from-the-mediterranean-1.10541

Geneticists analysing DNA from Neolithic burial sites in Sweden have made a surprising discovery. The genetic make-up of one individual — a female farmer known as Gök4 — bears a startling similarity to that of modern-day Mediterraneans. And the woman's genome provides clues as to how agriculture spread across Europe.

“The farmer is most genetically similar to people living in Cyprus and Sardinia today,”

So, what happened to the Mediterraneans in Sweden? They depigmented, and became Nordics?:confused:

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Basques Neolithic farming race too!?

Basques = High Med according to Dodecad.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0

Basques = Far South West like Sardinians.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8445/7888154404_42d9f51b92_z.jpg

Basques = Neolithic arrivals to Iberia!?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/28/cavemen-bones-dna-humans_n_1636289.html

"There are many works that claim the Basques [of the Iberian Peninsula] could be descendants from Mesolithics that became isolated in the Basque country," Lalueza-Fox said. "We found the modern Basques are genetically not related to these two individuals."

The scientists also recovered the complete mitochondrial DNA of one of these cavemen. This revealed that European populations during the Mesolithic were very uniform genetically.

"Despite their geographical distance, individuals from the regions corresponding to the current England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland and Spain shared the same mitochondrial lineage," Lalueza-Fox said. "These hunters-gatherers shared nomadic habits and had a common origin."

[SobieskisavedEurope]

So, what happened to the Mediterraneans in Sweden? They depigmented, and became Nordics?:confused:

IMO the redheads are a depigmented Northern Med element.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0

You can note how red hair is higher in North-West Europe where a statistical med element is present.

According to Dodecad Sweden has more Med than Sicily!

[Black Wolf]

An excellent post and topic indeed. It is very clear now that the Sardinians are easily the closest to the original Neolithic farmers in Europe. The correlation of the Mediterranean component that both Dienekes and Polako have found in their various ADMIXTURE analysis with this ancient Neolithic farmer ancestry is also striking. On the other hand the north European component seems to correlate quite strongly with ancient Mesolithic European hunter-gatherer ancestry. I have discussed all of this in detail with Polako before and he told me though that the North European component is still not a pure Mesolithic hunter-gatherer component. It is definitely majority Mesolithic say around 75-80% or so when seen in modern Europeans. The rest is probably composed of some sort of Neolithic farmer alleles.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

So, what happened to the Mediterraneans in Sweden? They depigmented, and became Nordics?:confused:

Nordids came from the East rather than the South like Poland - Russia only changed to Brachycephalic in the Medieval era

The Med element seems to be South-West.

So.... I don't think the Nordid correlates with Med.

Maybe the Keltic Nordic does!!!!

That makes a lot of sense as Keltic Nordic is highest in parts of North Europe with the highest Med element!!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So, what happened to the Mediterraneans in Sweden? They depigmented, and became Nordics?:confused:

The farmers were invaders, the nordics, basque and NW irish are more like what was there before them.

[Black Wolf]

So, what happened to the Mediterraneans in Sweden? They depigmented, and became Nordics?:confused:

They got swamped out by people who had a higher North European (ie. Mesolithic European) component at some point.

[Black Wolf]

Basques Neolithic farming race too!?

Basques = High Med according to Dodecad.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwV mc#gid=0

Basques = Far South West like Sardinians.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8445/7888154404_42d9f51b92_z.jpg

Basques = Neolithic arrivals to Iberia!?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/28/cavemen-bones-dna-humans_n_1636289.html

"There are many works that claim the Basques [of the Iberian Peninsula] could be descendants from Mesolithics that became isolated in the Basque country," Lalueza-Fox said. "We found the modern Basques are genetically not related to these two individuals."

The scientists also recovered the complete mitochondrial DNA of one of these cavemen. This revealed that European populations during the Mesolithic were very uniform genetically.

"Despite their geographical distance, individuals from the regions corresponding to the current England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland and Spain shared the same mitochondrial lineage," Lalueza-Fox said. "These hunters-gatherers shared nomadic habits and had a common origin."

Yes that is correct the Basques are largely of Neolithic Mediterranean origins.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

They got swamped out by people who had a higher North European (ie. Mesolithic European) component at some point.

They destroyed the purity of Europe!!

Do you think before this 100% of Europe was North European DNA & Light eyes & light hair!?

Well, I shouldn't talk I have dark brown hair but it is straight which I think is more important actually.

I mean a lot of Jews with lighter hair often still have curly hair.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Yes that is correct the Basques are largely of Neolithic Mediterranean origins.

If Basques are Neolithic farmer?

Then, is R1b haplogroup Neolithic farmer!?

Since R1b haplogroup is highest in Basques in Europe.

This might make some sense though with the connection of R1b haplogroup to Anatolia.

[Black Wolf]

If Basques are Neolithic farmer?

Then, is R1b haplogroup Neolithic farmer!?

Since R1b haplogroup is highest in Basques in Europe.

This might make some sense though with the connection of R1b haplogroup to Anatolia.

lol hahaha! Many people do think that R1b entered Europe with Mediterranean like Neolithic farmers yes.

[Smeagol]

They got swamped out by people who had a higher North European (ie. Mesolithic European) component at some point.

According to Coon:
''The Nordic race is a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean racial stock. It is probably a composite race made up of two or more basic Mediterranean strains, depigmented separately or in conjunction by a progressive evolutionary process.''

Nordics show little to no Cro-Magnon admixture in their phenotype, so I find it hard to believe they're mostly Mesolithic.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

lol hahaha! Many people do think that R1b entered Europe with Mediterranean like Neolithic farmers yes.

It seems like most of the Paternal haplogroups in Europe are Neolithic while most of the Maternal haplogroups in Europe are Paleolithic.

Maybe only I1a seems to be the paleolithic European haplogroup on the Paternal line.

Even that is a maybe.

[Black Wolf]

They destroyed the purity of Europe!!

Do you think before this 100% of Europe was North European DNA & Light eyes & light hair!?

Well, I shouldn't talk I have dark brown hair but it is straight which I think is more important actually.

I mean a lot of Jews with lighter hair often still have curly hair.

Well it is likely that pretty much all of Europe was 100% of the North European component before the Neolithic farmers arrived yes. It was a bit different though as the modern North European component is definitely majority Mesolithic in origin but not fully. As for pigmentation is is actually much more likely that the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe had dark hair and brown eyes. The origins of light hair and eyes are later and date to the Neolithic most likely.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

According to Coon:
''The Nordic race is a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean racial stock. It is probably a composite race made up of two or more basic Mediterranean strains, depigmented separately or in conjunction by a progressive evolutionary process.''

Nordics show little to no Cro-Magnon admixture in their phenotype, so I find it hard to believe they're mostly Mesolithic.

Aren't the Corded Nordids & Pontids more like Iranids than like typical Meds!?

This might make more sense since the Nordid phenotype spread with Indo-Europeans.

[Black Wolf]

According to Coon:
''The Nordic race is a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean racial stock. It is probably a composite race made up of two or more basic Mediterranean strains, depigmented separately or in conjunction by a progressive evolutionary process.''

Nordics show little to no Cro-Magnon admixture in their phenotype, so I find it hard to believe they're mostly Mesolithic.

Those old racial theories are outdated. Genetics has proven it. There are some correlations though but not much.

[Black Wolf]

It seems like most of the Paternal haplogroups in Europe are Neolithic while most of the Maternal haplogroups in Europe are Paleolithic.

Maybe only I1a seems to be the paleolithic European haplogroup on the Paternal line.

Even that is a maybe.

Yup seems to be the case most likely.

[Smeagol]

Those old racial theories are outdated. Genetics has proven it. There are some correlations though but not much.

Race is based on phenotype, genetics just tells you where your ancestors came from. Yes, Nordics do look far closer to Mediterraneans than to any Cro-Magnons.

[Black Wolf]

Race is based on phenotype, genetics just tells you where your ancestors came from. Yes, Nordics do look far closer to Mediterraneans than to any Cro-Magnons.

Yes and we are talking about genetics here.

[Smeagol]

Yes and we are talking about genetics here.

Then what is the origin of Nordics?

[amerinese]

Uniparental markers on this dude?

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Well it is likely that pretty much all of Europe was 100% of the North European component before the Neolithic farmers arrived yes. It was a bit different though as the modern North European component is definitely majority Mesolithic in origin but not fully. As for pigmentation is is actually much more likely that the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe had dark hair and brown eyes. The origins of light hair and eyes are later and date to the Neolithic most likely.

But, light eyes & light hair correlate so closely with the North-European element!

It seems the Med element is generally darker hair & eyes so much so it seems they naturally would be dark before some de-pigmented in the North.

[Black Wolf]

Then what is the origin of Nordics?

You mean people who currently live in the Nordic/Northern Europe countries mainly?

[Smeagol]

You mean people who currently live in the Nordic/Northern Europe countries mainly?

No, I mean people who are phenotypically Nordic, or ''Nordid''.

[Black Wolf]

But, light eyes & light hair correlate so closely with the North-European element!

It seems the Med element is generally darker hair & eyes so much so it seems they naturally would be dark before some de-pigmented in the North.

There was most likely a drastic change when the Neolithic reached Northern Europe when it comes to pigmentation. For some reason possibly sexual selection there was a large amount of selection for light features among the Neolithic farmers in Northern Europe. These people were mixed between Neolithic farmers from Southern Europe the Mediterranean component and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers North European component. For some reason the light hair and eyes that originated in Neolithic population really caught on in the North even though Northern Europeans have more Mesolithic ancestry than Southern Europeans.. It is a complex scenario.

[Black Wolf]

No, I mean people who are phenotypically Nordic, or ''Nordid''.

Well they are like other Europeans genetically. They mostly come from a mix of old North European Mesolithic like genes, Mediterranean Neolithic farmer like genes and West Asian Neolithic farmer/Bronze age genes.

[Smeagol]

Well they are like other Europeans genetically. They mostly come from a mix of old North European Mesolithic like genes, Mediterranean Neolithic farmer like genes and West Asian Neolithic farmer/Bronze age genes.

But why do they look so much like Mediterraneans?, and not much at all like CM types?

[Black Wolf]

Uniparental markers on this dude?

On what exacly? Neolithic farmers or Mesolithic hunter-gatherers?

[Black Wolf]

But why do they look so much like Mediterraneans?, and not much at all like CM types?

Because they are mixed with Neolithic Mediterranean like farmers and hence the Mediterranean component seen in Northern Europeans today. Also like I said earlier the North European component when seen in modern Europeans is not purely made up of old Mesolithic hunter-gatherer alleles. It is a composite with majority Mesolithic alleles and also probably around 20% Neolithic farmer type alleles of some sort.

[amerinese]

On what exacly? Neolithic farmers or Mesolithic hunter-gatherers?

The modern Sards referenced in the OP. I know Otzi's G subclade. He's my paternal-line cousin from probably 10 KYA, along with some percentage of Sardinians, Corsicans, and northern Italians.

[Black Wolf]

The modern Sards referenced in the OP. I know Otzi's G subclade. He's my paternal-line cousin from probably 10 KYA, along with some percentage of Sardinians, Corsicans, and northern Italians.

I know that modern day Sardinians are mostly composed of some subclade of I2 and G when it comes to Y-DNA I think. mtDNA like other Europeans is much more diverse.

[Stormer99]

Haplogroup I is known as the Viking haplogroup. Is this a result of ancient Northern European migrations?

[Black Wolf]

Haplogroup I is known as the Viking haplogroup. Is this a result of ancient Northern European migrations?

Only some subclades of I have a strong North European distribution. The Vikings were composed of numerous different haplogroups also besides just I. While many Vikings no doubt were carriers of haplogroup I the haplogroup is much more ancient in Europe. Many think it was probably the haplogroup of the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic males of Europe.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Haplogroup I is known as the Viking haplogroup. Is this a result of ancient Northern European migrations?

I probably spread out from greece. It's thought of as the viking haplogroup now but I don't think that was always the case either. For example there's a lot of r1a on west coast of scandinavia. In short it's not 100% clear where they were at this point, or who these guys FH is talking about are, even.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

I probably spread out from greece. It's thought of as the viking haplogroup now but I don't think that was always the case either. For example there's a lot of r1a on west coast of scandinavia. In short it's not 100% clear where they were at this point, or who these guys FH is talking about are, even.

It is true the R1a in the West coast of Scandanavia does look like it was likely there first.

You said before that the Scottish were smarter than the Irish!?

Do you think that is from higher R1a mixture in Scottish! vs Irish?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It is true the R1a in the West coast of Scandanavia does look like it was likely there first.

You said before that the Scottish were smarter than the Irish!?

Do you think that is from higher R1a mixture in Scottish! vs Irish?

I don't think I said they had a higher intelligence, though the scottish have good intelligence. I think I was talking about how the scottish joined in with the english a lot smarter. Though smartest would have been for both to wipe them out I guess.

The saami are I and they had a big expansion after the plague. A lot of that r1b of saxos etc. seems to have been there before. Sardinia has a lot of I and a lot of r1b, and I think their society was mixed together, and essentially it was probably the ancient greeks. That's who the guys RH are talking about probably really are. There's signs of I scatter all around europe but always in the coast areas. I I had been the main component of west europe at that point then basque country would be all I, so would NW ireland, so would the west coast norwegians.

I think that R spent the last glacial period in west europe in iberia and occitain, I was in greece, and likely south italy. Those are the two areas that seem to have been refugiums, and that's probably how r1a and r1b split off - r1b was southern in iberia, r1a northern in occitan (or maybe in ukraine byt then but I doubt it).

[SobieskisavedEurope]

I don't think I said they had a higher intelligence, though the scottish have good intelligence. I think I was talking about how the scottish joined in with the english a lot smarter. Though smartest would have been for both to wipe them out I guess.

The saami are I and they had a big expansion after the plague. A lot of that r1b of saxos etc. seems to have been there before. Sardinia has a lot of I and a lot of r1b, and I think their society was mixed together, and essentially it was probably the ancient greeks. That's who the guys RH are talking about probably really are. There's signs of I scatter all around europe but always in the coast areas. I I had been the main component of west europe at that point then basque country would be all I, so would NW ireland, so would the west coast norwegians.

I think that R spent the last glacial period in west europe in iberia and occitain, I was in greece, and likely south italy. Those are the two areas that seem to have been refugiums, and that's probably how r1a and r1b split off - r1b was southern in iberia, r1a northern in occitan (or maybe in ukraine byt then but I doubt it).

Interesting, well it was originally thought that Cro Magnon was R haplogroup until they found out Cro Magnon & the Upper Paleolithic period was earlier than haplogroup R.

Which Haplogroup IJ is old enough

However, who knows how accurate the dates even are.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Interesting, well it was originally thought that Cro Magnon was R haplogroup until they found out Cro Magnon & the Upper Paleolithic period was earlier than haplogroup R.

Which Haplogroup IJ is old enough

However, who knows how accurate the dates even are.

Yeah estimates like that are very shaky and would put blue eyes origin at 5k years or less, and keep in mind it's a minimum. So if it's a MINIMUM time til most common recent ancestor, what's that mean? Nothing, really. It's going to be events that lead to drift, not random happenstance. IE you expect to form new haplogroups when a group is pressed together in a small area for a long time like in ice age, not just because.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Yeah estimates like that are very shaky and would put blue eyes origin at 5k years or less, and keep in mind it's a minimum. So if it's a MINIMUM time til most common recent ancestor, what's that mean? Nothing, really. It's going to be events that lead to drift, not random happenstance. IE you expect to form new haplogroups when a group is pressed together in a small area for a long time like in ice age, not just because.

It is extremely hard to believe that blue eyes only started 5,000 years ago!

How did blue eyes in 5,000 years spread in not only Europe from Ireland to Ural mountains of Russia,but also from Afghanistan to Morocco.

It is hard to believe these populations all expanded 5,000 years ago.

I mean the light eyes & light hair in Morocco I have always thought came from Mechta Afalou Cro Magnon!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It is extremely hard to believe that blue eyes only started 5,000 years ago!

How did blue eyes in 5,000 years spread in not only Europe from Ireland to Ural mountains of Russia,but also from Afghanistan to Morocco.

It is hard to believe these populations all expanded 5,000 years ago.

I mean the light eyes & light hair in Morocco I have always thought came from Mechta Afalou Cro Magnon!

Yeah, and it's recessive. It would be hard to go from dark eyes to light eyes in that short of a time, and that's just a couple genes.

It's just like when you read the word "depigmented", which is even more improbable. If you know how many genes there are you know that's basically impossible, people never went from black to white or if they did it was in the waaaaay distant past. Most likely, color differences in people have been there since they lost the fur that used to cover the entire body, and since then some populations took on mutant genes that protect from the sun.

[Fire Haired]

Neolithic farmers in Scandinavia came out closest to Sardinians + Cyprus

http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-swedish-farmer-came-from-the-mediterranean-1.10541

Geneticists analysing DNA from Neolithic burial sites in Sweden have made a surprising discovery. The genetic make-up of one individual — a female farmer known as Gök4 — bears a startling similarity to that of modern-day Mediterraneans. And the woman's genome provides clues as to how agriculture spread across Europe.

“The farmer is most genetically similar to people living in Cyprus and Sardinia today,”
It is pretty shocking that it seems these farmers were able to stay pure from inter marriage for thousands of years and even when they migrated as far north as Sweden.

[Fire Haired]

Then what is the origin of Nordics?
What do you mean by Nordic's. Swedish, Norwegian, and Finnish? Austomal DNA of 8,600 year old hunter gather in Sweden named St. Farvour shows his closest relatives are modern northern Europeans same with 4,000-4,800 year old hunter gathers in Sweden mainly Soumi and Finnish. It is kind of hard to explain but did you see the results of the farmers and hunter gathers in globe13 in the begging of the thread. It shows the hunter gathers had over 70% of the group called north Euro which is most popular in eastern Europe and Scandinavia. North Euro is apart of the Caucasian family with its brother west Asian and cousins southwest Asian and meditreaen. North Euro is the only group to originate in Europe which is why it is so popular in hunter gather Europeans. That farmer is not the ancestor of modern Swedish they are partly but their main ancestors are pre Neolithic Europeans.

[Fire Haired]

Race is based on phenotype, genetics just tells you where your ancestors came from. Yes, Nordics do look far closer to Mediterraneans than to any Cro-Magnons.
Race is totally determined by Genetics and phenotype is a result or your ancestors. All Europeans mainly descend from The so called Cro magnon. Cro magnon is not areal thing just Paleoithic human remains in Europe who all have Caucasian skull shape. Austomal DNA from European hunter gathers and that Europe has its own unque group pretty much prove it.

[Fire Haired]

They destroyed the purity of Europe!!

Do you think before this 100% of Europe was North European DNA & Light eyes & light hair!?

Well, I shouldn't talk I have dark brown hair but it is straight which I think is more important actually.

I mean a lot of Jews with lighter hair often still have curly hair.
It is true Pre neloithic Europeans would have been maybe 100% the group they call North Euro. They have not shown results of 8,600 year old hunter gather from Sweden yet in tests like globe13 only that it groups with the other hunter gathers and most related to northern Europeans. La Brana 7,000 year old Mesloithic hunter gather from Northern Spain had over 25% Med and all the 4,000-4,800 year old hunter gather from Sweden had traces of Med. Farming spread to Europe from the Near east so it would make sense to assume their over 59% med came from the Near east. But on average Near easterns from the area the farming spread from only have about 29% overall Europeans have the highest. So were did all the Med come from maybe southeast Europe which was the starting point for the spread of farming in Europe.

I have noticed that Pre Neolithic European North Euro totally correlates with the distribution of fair hair and eyes. The dominate pale skin and having a good amount of any non dark hair and eye color Europeans definitely get that from their Mesolithic-Paleoithic ancestors not Near eastern farmers. It is hard to say how popular it would have been in Europe before the spread of farming. I would guess more popular than today probably around the same rate it is in central and eastern Europe but for all of Europe, Maybe be as high as it is around the Baltic sea and Scandinavia were North Euro is highest. The soumi though who have the highest amount of North Euro in globe 13 about 80% they live in far northern Scandinavia and have the same rate of light hair and eyes as central French and Iberians. Same for northeastern Finland.

It is hard to say what their hair color and eye color percentages would have been. Originally Europeans ancestors were as dark as Iraqis. So the first settlers of Europe in my opinion would have been light brown-brown skinned with pretty much all dark hair and eyes. At some point that changed and maybe light hair and eyes became most popular or close to 50% for most Europeans. Who knows when that happened maybe during the LGM or right before like 30,000ybp. On another threadt I made Origin of European palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)) I show how all different types of Euro palness exists in Near easterns but of course is much more rare and probably is not from European inter marriage. So the genes were there in the first Europeans just for some reason probably more than once first with skin color then hair and eye color Europeans became paler probably for the same reasons adaption. Since red hair and very pale skin we know existed in European Neanderthals they may have adapted for similar reasons.

[Fire Haired]

According to Coon:
''The Nordic race is a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean racial stock. It is probably a composite race made up of two or more basic Mediterranean strains, depigmented separately or in conjunction by a progressive evolutionary process.''

Nordics show little to no Cro-Magnon admixture in their phenotype, so I find it hard to believe they're mostly Mesolithic.

don't listen to that BS there is no such thing as Nordic race it was a idea created in the 1800's. By Nordic Swedish, Norwegian, and Finnish there just a group of Europeans with similar ancestry.

[Black Wolf]

What do you mean by Nordic's. Swedish, Norwegian, and Finnish? Austomal DNA of 8,600 year old hunter gather in Sweden named St. Farvour shows his closest relatives are modern northern Europeans same with 4,000-4,800 year old hunter gathers in Sweden mainly Soumi and Finnish. It is kind of hard to explain but did you see the results of the farmers and hunter gathers in globe13 in the begging of the thread. It shows the hunter gathers had over 70% of the group called north Euro which is most popular in eastern Europe and Scandinavia. North Euro is apart of the Caucasian family with its brother west Asian and cousins southwest Asian and meditreaen. North Euro is the only group to originate in Europe which is why it is so popular in hunter gather Europeans. That farmer is not the ancestor of modern Swedish they are partly but their main ancestors are pre Neolithic Europeans.

I already explained it to him.

[Benacer]

It is pretty shocking that it seems these farmers were able to stay pure from inter marriage for thousands of years and even when they migrated as far north as Sweden.

They did not mingle with hunter-gatherers, it seems.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Yeah, and it's recessive. It would be hard to go from dark eyes to light eyes in that short of a time, and that's just a couple genes.

It's just like when you read the word "depigmented", which is even more improbable. If you know how many genes there are you know that's basically impossible, people never went from black to white or if they did it was in the waaaaay distant past. Most likely, color differences in people have been there since they lost the fur that used to cover the entire body, and since then some populations took on mutant genes that protect from the sun.

Light pigmentation would have almost had to have come to Europe on arrival & come to be in the founder effect of the founding population of Europe.

Right, with light pigmentation being recessive it seems nearly impossible for blue eyes to have come about only 5,000 years ago.

Further complicated when it seems there were isolated refuge from the ice age in different parts of Europe where isolated migrations came about.

[Benacer]

It is extremely hard to believe that blue eyes only started 5,000 years ago!

How did blue eyes in 5,000 years spread in not only Europe from Ireland to Ural mountains of Russia,but also from Afghanistan to Morocco.

It is hard to believe these populations all expanded 5,000 years ago.

I mean the light eyes & light hair in Morocco I have always thought came from Mechta Afalou Cro Magnon!

I don't really think it is all that unlikely. It is very restricted around northern/ne Europe. It's relatively rare outside of Europe.

[Black Wolf]

It would be great if somehow someone could separate the Mesolithic alleles from the Neolithic alleles in the North European autosomal component among Europeans today. We will probably have to wait until the genomes of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers are looked at in more detail though and released to the public.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

It is true Pre neloithic Europeans would have been maybe 100% the group they call North Euro. They have not shown results of 8,600 year old hunter gather from Sweden yet in tests like globe13 only that it groups with the other hunter gathers and most related to northern Europeans. La Brana 7,000 year old Mesloithic hunter gather from Northern Spain had over 25% Med and all the 4,000-4,800 year old hunter gather from Sweden had traces of Med. Farming spread to Europe from the Near east so it would make sense to assume their over 59% med came from the Near east. But on average Near easterns from the area the farming spread from only have about 29% overall Europeans have the highest. So were did all the Med come from maybe southeast Europe which was the starting point for the spread of farming in Europe.

I have noticed that Pre Neolithic European North Euro totally correlates with the distribution of fair hair and eyes. The dominate pale skin and having a good amount of any non dark hair and eye color Europeans definitely get that from their Mesolithic-Paleoithic ancestors not Near eastern farmers. It is hard to say how popular it would have been in Europe before the spread of farming. I would guess more popular than today probably around the same rate it is in central and eastern Europe but for all of Europe, Maybe be as high as it is around the Baltic sea and Scandinavia were North Euro is highest. The soumi though who have the highest amount of North Euro in globe 13 about 80% they live in far northern Scandinavia and have the same rate of light hair and eyes as central French and Iberians. Same for northeastern Finland.

It is hard to say what their hair color and eye color percentages would have been. Originally Europeans ancestors were as dark as Iraqis. So the first settlers of Europe in my opinion would have been light brown-brown skinned with pretty much all dark hair and eyes. At some point that changed and maybe light hair and eyes became most popular or close to 50% for most Europeans. Who knows when that happened maybe during the LGM or right before like 30,000ybp. On another threadt I made Origin of European palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)) I show how all different types of Euro palness exists in Near easterns but of course is much more rare and probably is not from European inter marriage. So the genes were there in the first Europeans just for some reason probably more than once first with skin color then hair and eye color Europeans became paler probably for the same reasons adaption. Since red hair and very pale skin we know existed in European Neanderthals they may have adapted for similar reasons.

Interesting information.

It is interesting that La Brana was already 25% Med! Do you have a source for this!? I would enjoy seeing it!

It is interesting that it seems that Med may have lowered in the Mid-East with the arrival of people from near the Caucasus.

Yeah, thus far it seems Med is of Neolithic farmers who came to Europe perhaps later Caucasus DNA migrated into the near East or perhaps Caucasus DNA came in late with Hitites & Persians mixing with Caucasus & mixing in.

This might explain why Jews are higher Med & less Gedrosia than Levantine Arabs;

[SobieskisavedEurope]

It is hard to say what their hair color and eye color percentages would have been. Originally Europeans ancestors were as dark as Iraqis. So the first settlers of Europe in my opinion would have been light brown-brown skinned with pretty much all dark hair and eyes. At some point that changed and maybe light hair and eyes became most popular or close to 50% for most Europeans. Who knows when that happened maybe during the LGM or right before like 30,000ybp. On another threadt I made Origin of European palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)) I show how all different types of Euro palness exists in Near easterns but of course is much more rare and probably is not from European inter marriage. So the genes were there in the first Europeans just for some reason probably more than once first with skin color then hair and eye color Europeans became paler probably for the same reasons adaption. Since red hair and very pale skin we know existed in European Neanderthals they may have adapted for similar reasons.

These Mesolithic & Paleolithic DNA samples seem to be further from Africans by DNA than modern Europeans!!

So, I mean it seems Europeans became more African like with Neolithic farmer arrival!

But, doesn't that suggest that the date of arrival of Paleolithic (Cro Magnon) seems to be off!?

I mean Europeans are supposed to come out of Africa some 30,000-70,000 years ago, YET are further from Europeans by DNA!?

It makes little sense to how Europeans used to be further from Africans by DNA!?

[Black Wolf]

Interesting information.

It is interesting that La Brana was already 25% Med! Do you have a source for this!? I would enjoy seeing it!

It is interesting that it seems that Med may have lowered in the Mid-East with the arrival of people from near the Caucasus.

Yeah, thus far it seems Med is of Neolithic farmers who came to Europe perhaps later Caucasus DNA migrated into the near East or perhaps Caucasus DNA came in late with Hitites & Persians mixing with Caucasus & mixing in.

This might explain why Jews are higher Med & less Gedrosia than Levantine Arabs;

Yes actually that is starting to look like it may the case. It is possible that the Mediterranean component/element was the dominant one in the Near East among the early Neolithic farmers and then got swamped out a bit later by people who originated near the Caucasus and who brought in the West Asian component.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Yes actually that is starting to look like it may the case. It is possible that the Mediterranean component/element was the dominant one in the Near East among the early Neolithic farmers and then got swamped out a bit later by people who originated near the Caucasus and who brought in the West Asian component.

Yes,that was my take that Med was originally Middle Eastern & that it got swamped later on by West Asian / Caucasus DNA.

It seems that Sardinians might be closest to the Mesolithic Near Easterners!

That is largely suspect.

The interesting part is that Sardinians cluster further West than other Europeans on some DNA maps.

It seems to suggest that Med & North European shared close roots even before Neolithic farmers came to Europe.

It really suggests to me that the original Near Easterners may have come from Europeans!

This makes some sense & may explain why Near Easterners can look so European!

[Black Wolf]

Yes,that was my take that Med was originally Middle Eastern & that it got swamped later on by West Asian / Caucasus DNA.

It seems that Sardinians might be closest to the Mesolithic Near Easterners!

That is largely suspect.

The interesting part is that Sardinians cluster further West than other Europeans on some DNA maps.

It seems to suggest that Med & North European shared close roots even before Neolithic farmers came to Europe.

It really suggests to me that the original Near Easterners may have come from Europeans!

This makes some sense & may explain why Near Easterners can look so European!

Yes I do think that the Mediterranean component was present among the Mesolithic peoples of the Near East as well but I am calling it Neolithic as they were the ones who started the Neolithic. It probably spread into most of Europe during the Neolithic with farming.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

These Mesolithic & Paleolithic DNA samples seem to be further from Africans by DNA than modern Europeans!!

So, I mean it seems Europeans became more African like with Neolithic farmer arrival!

But, doesn't that suggest that the date of arrival of Paleolithic (Cro Magnon) seems to be off!?

I mean Europeans are supposed to come out of Africa some 30,000-70,000 years ago, YET are further from Europeans by DNA!?

It makes little sense to how Europeans used to be further from Africans by DNA!?

All the farmers came out of caucus area, probably, which would be more admixed with african and middle east.

Basically what happened to neanderthals IMO is they got slowly intermixed with and their genes washed away over time. Which continued on with later migrations, and is happening today, too.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

All the farmers came out of caucus area, probably, which would be more admixed with african and middle east.

Basically what happened to neanderthals IMO is they got slowly intermixed with and their genes washed away over time. Which continued on with later migrations, and is happening today, too.

That does make sense, I mean Neanderthal DNA is higher further away from Africa!

This does suggest a likely mixture over time!

[Black Wolf]

All the farmers came out of caucus area, probably, which would be more admixed with african and middle east.

Basically what happened to neanderthals IMO is they got slowly intermixed with and their genes washed away over time. Which continued on with later migrations, and is happening today, too.

We all pretty much have a small amount of Neanderthal DNA today it seems. Non-Sub-Saharan-Africans that is anyways.

[Fire Haired]

These Mesolithic & Paleolithic DNA samples seem to be further from Africans by DNA than modern Europeans!!

So, I mean it seems Europeans became more African like with Neolithic farmer arrival!

But, doesn't that suggest that the date of arrival of Paleolithic (Cro Magnon) seems to be off!?

I mean Europeans are supposed to come out of Africa some 30,000-70,000 years ago, YET are further from Europeans by DNA!?

It makes little sense to how Europeans used to be further from Africans by DNA!?

MOdern Europeans from what I have seen in austomal DNA tests have pretty much new traces of any sub sharan African in them. And no the theory is not that the earliest Europeans acem straight from Africa that's retarted. The Human family tree is broken down into three major families Sub Sharan African, Mongliod Oceania, and Caucasin. This is my opinon I think the ancestors of Mongliod Oceania and Caucasins had settled in the Near east and North Africa about 100,000 years ago. Mongliod Oceania migrated east into India then throughout asia and Australia starting about 80,000ybp. Caucasians ancestors stayed and eventully some arrived in Europe and north Africa and began to spread about 50,000ybp. I think this Mesolithic aust dna and the constancy in their mtDNA with Paleoithic Europeans is strong evidence modern Europeans mainly decend from some of the first arrivals in Europe from the Near east.

right now I think the idea's about human migrations have a lot wrong about them. Aust Dna, Y DNA, and mtDNA all prove that Oceania and Mongliods trace back to the same family that left the near east not Africa. Geno 20 assume that Oceania since they look black were the first out of Africa and went straight to Asia and ignore their obvious relation to other Asians. Also that in mtDNa and Y DNA trace back to the same non African family as Caucasians so they did not leave Africa separately. And the oldest completely modern Human skull is in Israel and is dated to be about 100,000 years old named Qafzeh 1. The idea humans left Africa just 60,000ybp is totally BS. and to say Humans arrived in Europe just 30,000ybp also is because there are multiple human remains and of art like a half lion half man statue and flutes in many areas of Europe that are over 40,000 years old. So with age estimates of human migrations people are uselly very conservative and go with the youngest date possible.

[Fire Haired]

We all pretty much have a small amount of Neanderthal DNA today it seems. Non-Sub-Saharan-Africans that is anyways.
I really doubt the NEarderthal thing. Who were the Neanderthals just a bunch of archic human remains in Europe and the Near east. So many of their skull shapes are so different from each other while if yuou found a fossil of a Caucasian skull and Oceania skull it would be hard to tell the different their nearly identical. Even though their ancestry has been separate for nearly 80,000 years. So just because we have some DNA from these arcahic humans does not mean it represents all of them they may have come from different migrations out of the near east and Africa. Of we had a skull of a Densovian I guerntee you they would classify it as a Neanderthal. I don't like generalizations and assumptions.

[Black Wolf]

I really doubt the NEarderthal thing. Who were the Neanderthals just a bunch of archic human remains in Europe and the Near east. So many of their skull shapes are so different from each other while if yuou found a fossil of a Caucasian skull and Oceania skull it would be hard to tell the different their nearly identical. Even though their ancestry has been separate for nearly 80,000 years. So just because we have some DNA from these arcahic humans does not mean it represents all of them they may have come from different migrations out of the near east and Africa. Of we had a skull of a Densovian I guerntee you they would classify it as a Neanderthal. I don't like generalizations and assumptions.

Yes I can see that you don't lol.

[Fire Haired]

Interesting information.

It is interesting that La Brana was already 25% Med! Do you have a source for this!? I would enjoy seeing it!

It is interesting that it seems that Med may have lowered in the Mid-East with the arrival of people from near the Caucasus.

Yeah, thus far it seems Med is of Neolithic farmers who came to Europe perhaps later Caucasus DNA migrated into the near East or perhaps Caucasus DNA came in late with Hitites & Persians mixing with Caucasus & mixing in.

This might explain why Jews are higher Med & less Gedrosia than Levantine Arabs;

my source is the begging of this thread with his globe13 results. If the 8,600 year old Mesloithic hunter gather from Sweden has a trace of Med maybe above 10% that proves it was in Europe before farming spread. But it would have come from a separate migration as North Euro. Maybe with the migration of Near eastern mtDNA J and T(Chronology of European mtDNA (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?95836-Chronology-of-European-mtDNA)). The Med is distributed pretty high in Europe, Near east, and north Africa which kind of makes no sense. Since North Euro is isolated to Europe, west Asian to certain areas of the Near east, and southwest Asian pretty much centered in Arabia and North Africa, Actually Southwest Asian and med take up almost all in glob13 of north Africans and Arabians maybe migration of Caucasians to North Africa starting about 50,000ybp came from Arabia. I don't understand the whole admixture stuff and how they come up with these different groups. Maybe Med is extremely ancient that's why it is in all Caucasians.

Since the farmers have so much Med there is no explanation that does not connect with modern Near easterns, The southwest Asian and west Asian does. So where did they get this Med maybe a group of European hunter gathers in southeast Europe who have a much different origin than the other hunter gathers I don't know.

[Fire Haired]

Yes actually that is starting to look like it may the case. It is possible that the Mediterranean component/element was the dominant one in the Near East among the early Neolithic farmers and then got swamped out a bit later by people who originated near the Caucasus and who brought in the West Asian component.

I really doubt that but the huge Med in European farmers needs to be solved.

[Black Wolf]

my source is the begging of this thread with his globe13 results. If the 8,600 year old Mesloithic hunter gather from Sweden has a trace of Med maybe above 10% that proves it was in Europe before farming spread. But it would have come from a separate migration as North Euro. Maybe with the migration of Near eastern mtDNA J and T(Chronology of European mtDNA (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?95836-Chronology-of-European-mtDNA)). The Med is distributed pretty high in Europe, Near east, and north Africa which kind of makes no sense. Since North Euro is isolated to Europe, west Asian to certain areas of the Near east, and southwest Asian pretty much centered in Arabia and North Africa, Actually Southwest Asian and med take up almost all in glob13 of north Africans and Arabians maybe migration of Caucasians to North Africa starting about 50,000ybp came from Arabia. I don't understand the whole admixture stuff and how they come up with these different groups. Maybe Med is extremely ancient that's why it is in all Caucasians.

Since the farmers have so much Med there is no explanation that does not connect with modern Near easterns, The southwest Asian and west Asian does. So where did they get this Med maybe a group of European hunter gathers in southeast Europe who have a much different origin than the other hunter gathers I don't know.

Very hard to say really. I suppose that it could be possible that the Med was present among Southeastern European hunter-gatherers. Actually it would make sense if it was really. At that time there was probably not much difference between Southeastern Europeans and Near Eastern peoples.

[Fire Haired]

Yes I do think that the Mediterranean component was present among the Mesolithic peoples of the Near East as well but I am calling it Neolithic as they were the ones who started the Neolithic. It probably spread into most of Europe during the Neolithic with farming.

I would bet $1,000,000 Med existed in Europe before farming. 8,600 year old Mesloithic hunter gather St Forvar from Sweden might prove that. It could have come from a non Neloithic migration to Europe from the Near east maybe with mtDNA J and T(Chronology of European mtDNA (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?95836-Chronology-of-European-mtDNA))

[Black Wolf]

I really doubt that but the huge Med in European farmers needs to be solved.

Doubt all you want. Many people are starting to think this may be the case.

[Fire Haired]

Very hard to say really. I suppose that it could be possible that the Med was present among Southeastern European hunter-gatherers. Actually it would make sense if it was really. At that time there was probably not much difference between Southeastern Europeans and Near Eastern peoples.

If it was popular in some Europeans before the Neolithic it would be southeast. La Brana from Spain already shows it was not southwest. But I dis agree with them being no different than the near eastern peoples. Specifically European mtDNA haplogroups exist in Greeks but not their close Near eastern neighbors southeast Europeans even though they are so close to the Near east are still in the European family. The borders of Europe literally perfectly border for people in this family. In globe13 there is a very high amount of west Asian and southwest Asian in Italy and southeast Europe mainly southern Italy and Greece. Their southwest Asian vs west Asian percentages are exactly the same strong evidence they get it from the same source. My guess is it came in the Greco Roman age through the meditreaen which would be why it is highest in Greece and southern Italy. But besides that People in Greece would not have inter married a ton with the Near eastern people so close to them.

[Fire Haired]

Doubt all you want. Many people are starting to think this may be the case.

It made the most sense to me at first but since La Brana and the other hunter gathers had a pretty significant amount of Med I think it probably existed in Europe before Neolithic. If St Farvour 8,600ybp hunter gather in Sweden has some that proves it since you cant give the excuse he inter married with farmers. But yes I do think the vas majority of Med in Europe is from the farmers since it is so popular very close to North Euro and is dominate in farmer samples.

[Black Wolf]

If it was popular in some Europeans before the Neolithic it would be southeast. La Brana from Spain already shows it was not southwest. But I dis agree with them being no different than the near eastern peoples. Specifically European mtDNA haplogroups exist in Greeks but not their close Near eastern neighbors southeast Europeans even though they are so close to the Near east are still in the European family. The borders of Europe literally perfectly border for people in this family. In globe13 there is a very high amount of west Asian and southwest Asian in Italy and southeast Europe mainly southern Italy and Greece. Their southwest Asian vs west Asian percentages are exactly the same strong evidence they get it from the same source. My guess is it came in the Greco Roman age through the meditreaen which would be why it is highest in Greece and southern Italy. But besides that People in Greece would not have inter married a ton with the Near eastern people so close to them.

I find it interesting to entertain the idea that the Mediterranean autosomal component may have been present in Europe before the Neolithic. If it was present then that says that Europeans are by far descended from Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers rather than incoming Neolithic Near Eastern farmers when it comes to autosomal DNA.

[Fire Haired]

I find it interesting to entertain the idea that the Mediterranean autosomal component may have been present in Europe before the Neolithic. If it was present then that says that Europeans are by far descended from Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers rather than incoming Neolithic Near Eastern farmers when it comes to autosomal DNA.
I think North Euro already proves that palness is really what makes Europeans different from other Caucasians. That deifntley is from their upper Paleoithic ancestors(Origin of Euro palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color))). It seems there was a hunter gather race they show the same mtDNA haplogroups no matter if their in Spain, Lithuania, Germany, Russia, Sweden. Even the last hunter gathers in Europe just around 4,000ybp did. And even in aust DNA they are so united why if it seems their the main ancestors of modern Europeans is their mtDNA haplogroup percentages so different. The majority of European mtDNa and Y DNA so maternal and paternal lines would be from Neolithic or after but the majority of their ancestry pre Neolithic. Its pretty cool that you have mtDNA U5b2c2 if you look at my thread Chronology of European mtDNA (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?95836-Chronology-of-European-mtDNA) there are two U5 samples In Czech republic dating to 31,155ybp.

It most likely originated in Europe around 50,000ybp. It takes up the majority of European hunter gather mtDNA from whatever age Paleoithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic, even bronze age there were hunter gathers in Russia as recent as 3,500ybp. If you look at ancient Eurasian DNA (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml) there is a U5b1 sample in Germany from 14,000ybo you have U5b. A U5b2b1 from Italy 10,000-16,000ybp. U5b is the main U5 subclade of the U5's of Mesolithic European samples. La Brana has U5b2c1 you have U5b2c2 that pretty awesome. If any mtDNA haplogroup i would want to have it is some type of U5b I don't know what I have yet.

[Black Wolf]

I think North Euro already proves that palness is really what makes Europeans different from other Caucasians. That deifntley is from their upper Paleoithic ancestors(Origin of Euro palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color))). It seems there was a hunter gather race they show the same mtDNA haplogroups no matter if their in Spain, Lithuania, Germany, Russia, Sweden. Even the last hunter gathers in Europe just around 4,000ybp did. And even in aust DNA they are so united why if it seems their the main ancestors of modern Europeans is their mtDNA haplogroup percentages so different. The majority of European mtDNa and Y DNA so maternal and paternal lines would be from Neolithic or after but the majority of their ancestry pre Neolithic. Its pretty cool that you have mtDNA U5b2c2 if you look at my thread Chronology of European mtDNA (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?95836-Chronology-of-European-mtDNA) there are two U5 samples In Czech republic dating to 31,155ybp.

It most likely originated in Europe around 50,000ybp. It takes up the majority of European hunter gather mtDNA from whatever age Paleoithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic, even bronze age there were hunter gathers in Russia as recent as 3,500ybp. If you look at ancient Eurasian DNA (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml) there is a U5b1 sample in Germany from 14,000ybo you have U5b. A U5b2b1 from Italy 10,000-16,000ybp. U5b is the main U5 subclade of the U5's of Mesolithic European samples. La Brana has U5b2c1 you have U5b2c2 that pretty awesome. If any mtDNA haplogroup i would want to have it is some type of U5b I don't know what I have yet.

Yup thanks bro haha! I definitely am descended in the direct maternal line from the ancient Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe. I also think it is pretty awesome! :)...My direct maternal line comes from Ireland.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

I find it interesting to entertain the idea that the Mediterranean autosomal component may have been present in Europe before the Neolithic. If it was present then that says that Europeans are by far descended from Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers rather than incoming Neolithic Near Eastern farmers when it comes to autosomal DNA.

There may have been Upper Paleolithic Med arrivals from the Near East.

You can see here how the measurements of Cro Magnon 1 shift from Finland to Denmark in the Upper Paleolithic.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_u7NyW2SaZlE/TSRaQkMRzqI/AAAAAAAAAGs/PgH5vY1Ctto/s500/Brace2005-Fig2.png

This seems to suggest Upper Paleolithic arrivals with Med elements.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

MOdern Europeans from what I have seen in austomal DNA tests have pretty much new traces of any sub sharan African in them. And no the theory is not that the earliest Europeans acem straight from Africa that's retarted. The Human family tree is broken down into three major families Sub Sharan African, Mongliod Oceania, and Caucasin. This is my opinon I think the ancestors of Mongliod Oceania and Caucasins had settled in the Near east and North Africa about 100,000 years ago. Mongliod Oceania migrated east into India then throughout asia and Australia starting about 80,000ybp. Caucasians ancestors stayed and eventully some arrived in Europe and north Africa and began to spread about 50,000ybp. I think this Mesolithic aust dna and the constancy in their mtDNA with Paleoithic Europeans is strong evidence modern Europeans mainly decend from some of the first arrivals in Europe from the Near east.

right now I think the idea's about human migrations have a lot wrong about them. Aust Dna, Y DNA, and mtDNA all prove that Oceania and Mongliods trace back to the same family that left the near east not Africa. Geno 20 assume that Oceania since they look black were the first out of Africa and went straight to Asia and ignore their obvious relation to other Asians. Also that in mtDNa and Y DNA trace back to the same non African family as Caucasians so they did not leave Africa separately. And the oldest completely modern Human skull is in Israel and is dated to be about 100,000 years old named Qafzeh 1. The idea humans left Africa just 60,000ybp is totally BS. and to say Humans arrived in Europe just 30,000ybp also is because there are multiple human remains and of art like a half lion half man statue and flutes in many areas of Europe that are over 40,000 years old. So with age estimates of human migrations people are uselly very conservative and go with the youngest date possible.

True, there are Human skulls found outside of Africa at 100,000 years ago including Qafzeh, Skhul skulls in Israel & a newer one found in China all at 100,000 years old.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-01/23/content_6413831.htm

Agreed, it is hard to believe humans left Africa 60,000 years ago!

If that was true Cro Magnon should be Affican but insteasd Cro Magnon was like Finns the furthest Europeans from Africans.

True, about the recent African mixture in Europe in especially South-Europe!

[Fire Haired]

True, there are Human skulls found outside of Africa at 100,000 years ago including Qafzeh, Skhul skulls in Israel & a newer one found in China all at 100,000 years old.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-01/23/content_6413831.htm

Agreed, it is hard to believe humans left Africa 60,000 years ago!

If that was true Cro Magnon should be Affican but insteasd Cro Magnon was like Finns the furthest Europeans from Africans.

True, about the recent African mixture in Europe in especially South-Europe!

I think it is very possible the first humans had black skin and nappy hair but who knows who tday fits best with their skull shape. With Cro magnon we have mtDNA and skull shape we know they were Caucasian and most likely like I said the main ancestors of modern Europeans. And no there is very very very little African admixture in Europe. all sub sharan African mtDNA is under L which is almost non existint in Europe I guess a tiny bit more popular in Iberia which makes sense. Also Y DNA E M81 which is the main paternal lineage of Caucasin north Africans not sub sharan it is very rare in Europe.
38221

[Fire Haired]

There may have been Upper Paleolithic Med arrivals from the Near East.

You can see here how the measurements of Cro Magnon 1 shift from Finland to Denmark in the Upper Paleolithic.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_u7NyW2SaZlE/TSRaQkMRzqI/AAAAAAAAAGs/PgH5vY1Ctto/s500/Brace2005-Fig2.png

This seems to suggest Upper Paleolithic arrivals with Med elements.
I really don't trust that skull shape stuff I would say trust only DNA. Just because Finnish and Soumi are the closest relatives to Mesloithic-Paleoithic Europeans does not mean their skull shape is the closest.

[Fire Haired]

So, what happened to the Mediterraneans in Sweden? They depigmented, and became Nordics?:confused:

The incoming farmers were most related to modern Sardine but the native hunter gathers to modern Soumi and Finnish. The earliest Scandinavians.

[Black Wolf]

Well Finns are the closest apparently in skull shape and measurements to Cro-Magnons of all modern day ethnic groups and as we know they also seem to have a very high percentage of Mesolithic European genes. The correlation is not exact of course but still interesting to note.

[Fire Haired]

Well Finns are the closest apparently in skull shape and measurements to Cro-Magnons of all modern day ethnic groups and as we know they also seem to have a very high percentage of Mesolithic European genes. The correlation is not exact of course but still interesting to note.

If the skull shape thing is true which I doubt it would make sense since they do have highest amount of North Euro in globe13 which was maybe 100% in Paleoithic Europeans.

[Black Wolf]

If the skull shape thing is true which I doubt it would make sense since they do have highest amount of North Euro in globe13 which was maybe 100% in Paleoithic Europeans.

In most groups of Upper Paleolithic Europeans yes. The Mediterranean component may have been present in some groups as well though as we have been discussing.