I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Her result is not that far from what you posted above for Swedes.:
Swedish 0.00956413
74.7 Irish
21.8 Latvian
1.3 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
2.2 Saami
Printable View
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Her result is not that far from what you posted above for Swedes.:
Swedish 0.00956413
74.7 Irish
21.8 Latvian
1.3 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
2.2 Saami
Deutschland hat eine Menge Ost- und Südosteuropäer. Viele leben im Lande schon seit Jahrzehnten und sind deutsche Staatsbürger. Bist du auch gegen ihre Assimilation als Deutsche? Ich glaube die heutige deutsche Gesellschaft ist leider viel zu vielfältig und überfremdet, um je wieder rein deutsch zu werden. Die AfD, obwohl oft als eine rasstische und rechtsextreme Partei abgestempelt, ist nicht prinzipiell gegen jede Einwanderung. Sogar die Identitären sind nicht gegen andere Europäer. Nur Moslems und Neger sind ein Problem für sie.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Übrigens hast du eine Menge Slawenblut, also nicht vollständig westeuropäisch.
Bezkow (Beeskow) is a town in Lusatia, Niederlausitz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
You can see it just a bit south of Frankfurt in this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%C5%BEicko.jpg
Marianne is a culturally germanized Sorb, that's what her son claimed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
And what are these "only German names in last 200 years"?
There is no GEDCOM for this kit, so how did you check the names?
Ja. Ich bin der Meinung, daß die Identität sich auf die Volkszugehörigkeit bezieht mit allem, was dazu gehört, und demgemäß viel enger ist, als daß man lediglich nicht Neger oder nicht Moslem sei. Da ich in einem unfreien Land lebe, kann ich mich hier nicht frei äußern und will das daher nicht weiter vertiefen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Vollkommen richtig. Das Letzere habe ich auch nie behauptet. Ich bin Deutscher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
"Only German names" LOL. :picard1: Have you checked the etymology?:
https://www.janecke.name/angaben-zu-...amiliennamen/m
Mietchen. Niederlausitz. Miet Sorbisch) werfen, fortwerfen ... Speer ... im Kampf: Mietislaw - ein slaw. Vorname, dazu -chen als dteutsche Verkosung.
Mietusch. Sorb. / wendisch. Kosef., Miet von Meti + slaw = schleudern (den Speer + Ruhm)
A German name is something else than an etymologically German name. What is an etymologically German name, is clear. And a German name is a name that is used by ethnic Germans and that by its form unveils German language. So Kubicki is a Polish name and Kubitzki is a German name. Like Schultz is German and Szulc is Polish. And Mietchen is a German name, as it is obviously in a German language form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Stearsolina, to whom you address your criticism, has not checked a pedigree but I told her that the individual in question has done ancestry research and that there is no sign for any ancestor having a Sorabian and not a German ethnicity the last 200 years, which is as far back as her known ancestry at least reaches (information from her son).
That you then in your obsessive way pursuaded the son to adept your insinuations and interpret the genetic result of his mother to be no German (!), and that you then quote him for confirmation, while he essentially just quotes you, is a perversion.
This is so hypocritical that I lack words for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
It was me that first told you this kit (on 21st of November 2018) and I spoke to the son a lot before you edited him and at that time, while he well knew the genetic results, he had no other view than his mother being a German.
And your intention to declare the DNA kit of an ethnic German for being the kit of an ethnic Sorb (while there are ethnic Sorbs) and forward it to Davidski with this non applicable information as a reference for Sorbs imo is even scientifically fraudulent.
I did not persuade him to say that his mother is a Sorb. I told him that her results in GEDmatch calculators indicate similarity to academic Oberlausitz Sorbs from the Harvard's Human Origins dataset. He replied - "her ancestors came from the Niederlausitz from a small area around Beeskow since hundreds of years, and hence she is a Sorb but the culture of the Sorbs in this area has been suppressed since the German annexation."Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
And you guys were looking for a Red Army ancestor to explain her DNA results... :picard1:Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Basically the glasses were all the time on his nose, but he couldn't find his glasses.
Maybe he properly did his research on the history of Niederlausitz region later on.
Global25 has few averages, if there were more other regions would probably be closer. There is a superficial closeness with Sweden because both of you are essentially on a cline between a northwestern population and a more eastern one (Baltic and Finnish in the case of Sweden and Balto-Slavic in the case of East Germany).Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
Target: rothaer_scaled
Distance: 0.0135% / 0.01348853 | R2P
59.1 Welsh
40.9 Russian_Pskov
Target: rothaer_wife2_scaled
Distance: 0.0178% / 0.01781513 | R2P
76.5 Danish
23.5 Lithuanian_VA
Target: rothaer_wife2_scaled
Distance: 0.0191% / 0.01908691 | R2P
72.6 Icelandic
27.4 Lithuanian_VA
Target: Swedish
Distance: 0.0066% / 0.00662055 | R2P
82.9 Danish
17.1 Finnish_Central
Target: Swedish
Distance: 0.0089% / 0.00886372 | R2P
82.5 Icelandic
17.5 Lithuanian_VA
https://i.imgur.com/B5REtHq.png
Der NS war dezidiert antirussisch bzw. antislawisch. Heute haben einige Leute ein falsches Verständnis vom historischen NS und glauben die seien einfach "weiße Nationalisten" gewesen (und rotgepillt zur J-Frage). Aber in Wirklichkeit waren sie eher deutsche/germanische Suprematisten. Das Slawentum wird oftmals mit dem Russentum assoziiert und nach dem NS und einigen anderen westlichen Rassentheoretikern sind die Russen ein Bastardenvolk, eine Mongolenhorde oder so was ähnliches. Die Deutschen hingegen verstehen sich als ein westliches Volk, unverwandt mit dem östlichen Barbarentum. Deshalb trollte ich dich als einen partiellen Slawen.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
AFAIK, Lower Sorbs are pretty much all germanized by now. Only Upper Sorbs still survive in larger numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
You know, most of the Irish can no longer speak Irish, but nobody sane will use their DNA as English references.
And you are suggesting to use a genetically pure Lower Sorb who just lost her language, as a German reference.
As Leto noticed now this "Brandenburg_outlier" will show up in models for a lot of Eastern Europeans as their supposed "German" ancestry. For example I can be modelled as "German_Brandenburg_outlier" plus Dutch, because I'm more western-shifted than this sample.
BTW you know very well that Beeskow is in the region of Niederlausitz, but you called it "German_Brandenburg_outlier".
You could at least call it "German_Niederlausitz" (and probably not such an outlier for local Germans from Niederlausitz).
=====
BTW, all of academic Sorbian samples are Upper Sorbs from one town, Kamenz:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamenz
Alles gut und kein Problem. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Ich teile jedoch nicht diese Meinung des NS einer solchen scharfen Abgrenzung. Hingegen sehe ich schon ein kulturelles Gefälle (betreffend die ebenfalls slawischen Tschechen allerdings z. B. nicht). Das ist aber kein Grund, Tatsachen über die eigene Abstammung zu verdrehen und etwas sein zu wollen, was man nicht ist. Ich habe auch noch nicht davon gehört, daß etwa NS-Anhänger in Pommern und Ostpreußen, wo es für den NS hohe Stimmenanteile gab, aufgrund ihrer gut bekannten teilweise erheblichen slawischen Abstammung sich minderwertig gefühlt hätten. Oder daß Otto Skorzeny, Erich v. d. Bach-Zelewski und Odilo Globotschnik wegen ihrer offenkundig auch slawischen Abstammung gering geschätzt worden seien.
You are tactically pretending cluelessness to catch the uneducated part of the audience when you do such a comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
As you very well know, langauge is not how traditionally English ethnicity is defined, but German is.
This is exactly what the German people partly is. So yes, of course. Also Tyroleans are considered Germans, even if they to a biggest proportion are ”just” Germanised previous population, Rhaetians, Romans or what you want to call them. Etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Shall we withhold facts, because some people are uneducated? When I’m modeled with Avar_Szolad_2, Orcadians and Sardinians I do also not believe that I hail from these places because of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Yes, sorry, that a particular German is genetically more Slavic-like than you. But there's nothing wrong with that modelling. It's applicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
No, it’s called „German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)“, which is even more precise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
You would surely have done, because you don’t mind mingeling facts with wishes and speculations. Beeskow is not located in today’s Niederlausitz. Also, we don’t know how is the genetic of the German population of Niederlausitz. There have for long times (600-700 years (?)) been loads of non-Sorbs in Lusatia, like in Görlitz and Southern Upper Lusatia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
I stick to the facts and they are perfectly expressed by „German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)“, just stating it’s a German from Beeskow that is an outlier in Brandenburg. More we simply don’t know for now.
Was this one added to the averages? he's from Jena/Gera, eastern Thuringia
Code:1 Baltic 37.38
2 North_Atlantic 33.73
3 West_Med 8.85
4 West_Asian 8.81
5 East_Med 8.33
6 Oceanian 1.17
7 Red_Sea 0.92
8 Siberian 0.51
9 South_Asian 0.17
10 Amerindian 0.11
11 Northeast_African 0.01
Nope. Both German and English are defined by language, but Irish and Sorbian are not defined by language. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
There is not even such a thing as the Sorbian language, as you know.
There are two languages, as different from each other as Polish from Czech (so they probably use German when communicating between Lower Sorbs & Upper Sorbs).
Rhaetians and Romans no longer exist to claim back their people, but the Irish and Sorbs still exist (and as you know the goal of the Irish is to claim back, once "Britishized", Ulster).Quote:
This is exactly what the German people partly is. So yes, of course. Also Tyroleans are considered Germans, even if they to a biggest proportion are ”just” Germanised previous population, Rhaetians, Romans or what you want to call them. Etc. etc.
What the hell is "today's Niederlausitz" ??? So there is "today's" and "yesterday's" ??? No, there is only one Niederlausitz with defined traditional / historical borders since the 16th century IIRC. And I showed you books (all in German) and maps which mention Beeskow as part of it. Including that book "Kurmarkisch-Wendische Distrikt".Quote:
Beeskow is not located in today’s Niederlausitz.
And by the way Sorbs are recognized as a minority in all of Brandenburg, not just in Niederlausitz. So even a Sorb living in Prignitz is still a Sorb.
I once asked you what are the criteria of being part of the Sorbian minority but you didn't explain that, so I guess it is about self-identification.
The majority of Germans in Niederlausitz are most likely descended from Germanized Sorbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
I doubt that the proportion of Germans in Lusatia (especially Lower Lusatia) 600 years ago was higher than that in Upper Silesia.
And yet, you think that Germans from Upper Silesia are very Slavic as a rule, while Germans from Lusatia only in case of outliers.
BTW in Masuria apparently there were some Germans living in towns founded there, before the arrival of Polish/Mazovian settlers.
which dataset is this? is it available only in fastq/bam?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
It is Reich Lab's HO dataset.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
I can see a parallel in the case of the Csángó people of Moldavia (East Romania) who are today mostly Romanian speakers, but since they kept intermarrying in their closed communities (villages) they still have a genetic composition distinct from their Moldavian neighbors, and are very similar to Hungarians in Transylvania, even if most of them are Romanian-speakers today. I believe it's good that they aren't included into the Moldavian averages, but added to the average of the Hungarian-speaking Csángós, since their grandparents and their great-grandparents were mostly Hungarian speakers, or better said speakers of the Csángó dialect of Hungarian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
I don't see any similarity. Brendenburg woman he is mentioning has only German names and German-speaking ancestors as long as she can trace back her family tree. She is not a Sorb, neither had any knowledge about Sorb ancestry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunai
I'd say it's complex, but can be explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Carinthia and Styria with boardering parts of todays East Tyrol, Upper and Lower Austria and Salzburgs SE (Lungau) were part of Caranthania. Not only current Carinthia as oftenQuote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Burgenland was devastated and largely depopulated in the Turk wars and resettled with German (relaticly many protestants - less intermarriage) and Croat people afterwards. It only became part of Austria in 1921, being part of the hungarian half before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Vorarlberg and parts of Tyrol (Außerfern) were settled by Alamanic Speaker, might also increase a western shift relative to other Austrians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Historically it would make sense to have Germanic-like along the danube river through Northern Salzbugg (Flachgau) then Upper and Lower Austria decreasing from west to east, basically looking like a wedge with Carantanian Slavs to the South and Northern Slav "Czech" influence increasing to the North.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
Again Germanic influence should be stronger along the danube and on good soils like Wachau.
If you read about Beeskow history, you will see it was a 100% ethnic Sorbian area until the 1700s, when it was forcibly Germanized through administrative measures (banning of Sorbian languages in churches and schools, replacing it by German language).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
There are even books published by Domowina-Verlag etc. about it, for example:
Frido Mětšk, "Der Kurmärkisch-Wendische Distrikt. Ein Beitrag Zur Geschichte Der Territorien Bärwalde, Beeskow, Storkow, Teupitz und Zossen, Unter Besonderer Berücksichtigung Des 16. Bis 18. Jahrhunderts. [With Plates and Maps.]", Instituts für sorbische Volksforschung in Bautzen.
You maybe should have checked that before lecturing a German about German language. What is considered Niederlausitz has changed by time and however since abt. 1796 Beeskow is not anymore in what is considered Niederlausitz or Lausitz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
I just add some arbitrary German maps showing what in German is meant by the term Niederlausitz. I've marked Beeskow in red, mostly with a red ring.
https://i.imgur.com/oBSGIfS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/C93uZwn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZljCDKc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kkUCyS3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mWOgIUx.jpg
= they are not Sorbs for centuries. Similar like you are product of Polonized non Slavs among other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
It is a West Slavic region and I'm a West Slav too.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
I checked in Google Graphics "Lusatia maps" and almost all of them show Beeskow as part of Lusatia.
For example: https://i.pinimg.com/564x/64/59/b6/6...7295ad5e91.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/64/59/b6/6...7295ad5e91.jpg
Especially maps by Domowina-Verlag (which is a Sorbian publisher) show Beeskow as part of Lusatia.
German regions are e.g. Brandenburg and Saxony, but Lusatia is not.
If you were kind enough to the Sorbs to create a separate Bundesland called Lausitz, then maybe I would see it differently.
But Lausitz is not a separate Bundesland, so it is not a German region.
Actually the main reason why it is not a Bundesland, is because you see it as a colony, not one of historic German peoples.
Yeah, by such a sentence you must smile yourself, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
That this sentence is self contradictory in resepect to Ireland, that should be ethnically 90% English if the first part of your content would be correct, you likely see. Let alone Scotland and Wales.
This is more high level trolling than a serious statement.
There was also a region called Obodritia, and it does not exist today (at least not as a German region).
Only if the English definition tramples and nulifies the Irish definition, which is what you automatically assume (Goliath always tramples David, in your mind).Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
What was the purpose of English Anglicization policies in Ireland, if not to turn the Irish into the English?
They imposed English language on the native Irish, hoping that it was going to turn them into the English.
Yes, but we were talking about what is meant by the German term Niederlausitz, which is what you suggested for labelling a sample from Beeskow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
That there are Dmowski-like maps printed in Prague 1945 expressing some anti-German fantasies is known. There are also maps showing Berlin being in Poland.
The today German term Niederlausitz does not comprise Beeskow. Since more than 200 years. So someone today reading a sample being from Niederlausitz would be misled.
Sorb in G25 is useful mainly for German users so that they can model themselves as e.g. Dutch + Sorb instead of Dutch + Polish.
(if they want to check their proportion of Germanic and West Slavic)
Check the PCA:
https://i.imgur.com/A1EfJak.png
I'm not interested in modelling my genetic ancestry from 150 years ago. Who needs that? Traditional genealogy can answer that.Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
I am interested in modelling my genetic ancestry from 500 years ago, 750 years ago, 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, and so on.
Even if Beeskow was excluded from Niederlausitz 200 years ago, the people living there are "living fossils", still the same as their ancestors 200+ years ago. This person is like a "Trilobite", a living fossil who has the same genetics as Sorbs living there 500+ years ago. Or extremely similar at least.
You are funny. Did you forget that is was you that wrote on 21st of November 2018 9:32 :Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
"I hope you will be able to rule-out Non-Parental Events."
May people make up their own mind about the character of your presentations.
Don't distract from the discussed topic. It was about the correct labelling of the kit and if "Niederlausitz" is correct for that or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
That was a serious statement, did you really not understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by rothaer
The English enforced English language in Ireland, hoping to Anglicize native Irish people and turn them into English.
The Irish, however, despite losing their language, preserved their ethnic identity, which is now not tied to language.
If national law contradicts European Union law and there is a conflict of laws, then which law has priority? Most of national Constitutions claim that they have priority over EU law, and EU law also claims that it has priority over national Constitutions. Is this high level trolling too?
Stop writing tiresome nonsense. Person in question is German, not Sorbian, and she did not preserve any sense nor knowledge of Sorbian ancestry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
Your pitiful attempts to justify Davidski using fraudulent sample of Lower Sorb (on your advice) is embarassing.
She is German, not a Sorb, Davidski and you made a mistake and are tricking people.
Apologize, be quiet and try to be smarter next time.
Thank you. This really displays your understanding of "science". Manipulating data for getting a nicer and smoother result is ultimately disqualifying someone in a scientific context. And also in the question whether he is at all a serious person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomenable
This sample is neither a Sorb nor from Niederlausitz(!).
You can model all the same with "German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)". The only difference is that it would be the truth and not Peterska's nice fantasies.
She has fully Sorbian ancestry, I already quoted what her son wrote.
And apparently you are also using a sample of a Klaipeda Region Lithuanian as a German.
I even think Peterska tricked Davidski by telling him it's a Sorb from Niederlausitz and Davidski was not aware of that this was just an interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
In such case you are disqualified from being an ethnic Pole, considering your low early Slavic ancestry compared to real Poles like Lucas and Roy.
On my G25 Slavic calculator Peterska scores same amount of early Slavic as I do, and I am a mixed Croat (Croats are not as genetically Slavic as Poles). Hahah! xD
Target: Lukasz
Distance: 1.7606% / 0.01760596
90.8 (Balto-)Slavic
9.2 Graeco-Roman
Target: Tomenable
Distance: 2.4891% / 0.02489090
59.8 (Balto-)Slavic
20.0 Germanic
14.2 Celtic_like
6.0 Graeco-Roman
Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 1.6472% / 0.01647246
59.6 (Balto-)Slavic
15.4 Balkan
14.8 Graeco-Roman
8.8 Celtic_like
1.4 Turkic
Rothaer just cannot stand that Sven told me that his mother is a Sorb, just like he could not stand (before that) that Kramkowski identifies as Polish (as he wrote on Anthrogenica).
Rothaer wants to be the master & ruler of other peoples' identity...
What if we add Kramkowski as "Polish_East_Prussia" to Global25 ??? :)
By the way, let me guess... Kramkowski is part of your "German_East_Prussia_Masuria" average, right? :)
Even though he identifies as Polish and even migrated back from Germany to Poland and now lives in Poland.