German GEDmatch results

[rothaer]

Der NS war dezidiert antirussisch bzw. antislawisch. Heute haben einige Leute ein falsches Verständnis vom historischen NS und glauben die seien einfach "weiße Nationalisten" gewesen (und rotgepillt zur J-Frage). Aber in Wirklichkeit waren sie eher deutsche/germanische Suprematisten. Das Slawentum wird oftmals mit dem Russentum assoziiert und nach dem NS und einigen anderen westlichen Rassentheoretikern sind die Russen ein Bastardenvolk, eine Mongolenhorde oder so was ähnliches. Die Deutschen hingegen verstehen sich als ein westliches Volk, unverwandt mit dem östlichen Barbarentum. Deshalb trollte ich dich als einen partiellen Slawen.

Alles gut und kein Problem.
Ich teile jedoch nicht diese Meinung des NS einer solchen scharfen Abgrenzung. Hingegen sehe ich schon ein kulturelles Gefälle (betreffend die ebenfalls slawischen Tschechen allerdings z. B. nicht). Das ist aber kein Grund, Tatsachen über die eigene Abstammung zu verdrehen und etwas sein zu wollen, was man nicht ist. Ich habe auch noch nicht davon gehört, daß etwa NS-Anhänger in Pommern und Ostpreußen, wo es für den NS hohe Stimmenanteile gab, aufgrund ihrer gut bekannten teilweise erheblichen slawischen Abstammung sich minderwertig gefühlt hätten. Oder daß Otto Skorzeny, Erich v. d. Bach-Zelewski und Odilo Globotschnik wegen ihrer offenkundig auch slawischen Abstammung gering geschätzt worden seien.

[rothaer]

You know, most of the Irish can no longer speak Irish, but nobody sane will use their DNA as English references.

You are tactically pretending cluelessness to catch the uneducated part of the audience when you do such a comparison.

As you very well know, langauge is not how traditionally English ethnicity is defined, but German is.

And you are suggesting to use a genetically pure Lower Sorb who just lost her language, as a German reference.

This is exactly what the German people partly is. So yes, of course. Also Tyroleans are considered Germans, even if they to a biggest proportion are ”just” Germanised previous population, Rhaetians, Romans or what you want to call them. Etc. etc.

As Leto noticed now this "Brandenburg_outlier" will show up in models for a lot of Eastern Europeans as their supposed "German" ancestry.

Shall we withhold facts, because some people are uneducated? When I’m modeled with Avar_Szolad_2, Orcadians and Sardinians I do also not believe that I hail from these places because of that.

For example I can be modelled as "German_Brandenburg_outlier" plus Dutch, because I'm more western-shifted than this sample.

Yes, sorry, that a particular German is genetically more Slavic-like than you. But there's nothing wrong with that modelling. It's applicable.

BTW you know very well that Beeskow is in the region of Niederlausitz, but you called it "German_Brandenburg_outlier".

No, it’s called „German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)“, which is even more precise.

You could at least call it "German_Niederlausitz" (and probably not such an outlier for local Germans from Niederlausitz).

You would surely have done, because you don’t mind mingeling facts with wishes and speculations. Beeskow is not located in today’s Niederlausitz. Also, we don’t know how is the genetic of the German population of Niederlausitz. There have for long times (600-700 years (?)) been loads of non-Sorbs in Lusatia, like in Görlitz and Southern Upper Lusatia.

I stick to the facts and they are perfectly expressed by „German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)“, just stating it’s a German from Beeskow that is an outlier in Brandenburg. More we simply don’t know for now.

[vbnetkhio]

Was this one added to the averages? he's from Jena/Gera, eastern Thuringia

1	Baltic	37.38
2	North_Atlantic	33.73
3	West_Med	8.85
4	West_Asian	8.81
5	East_Med	8.33
6	Oceanian	1.17
7	Red_Sea	0.92
8	Siberian	0.51
9	South_Asian	0.17
10	Amerindian	0.11
11	Northeast_African	0.01

[Peterski]

As you very well know, langauge is not how traditionally English ethnicity is defined, but German is.

Nope. Both German and English are defined by language, but Irish and Sorbian are not defined by language.

There is not even such a thing as the Sorbian language, as you know.

There are two languages, as different from each other as Polish from Czech (so they probably use German when communicating between Lower Sorbs & Upper Sorbs).

This is exactly what the German people partly is. So yes, of course. Also Tyroleans are considered Germans, even if they to a biggest proportion are ”just” Germanised previous population, Rhaetians, Romans or what you want to call them. Etc. etc.

Rhaetians and Romans no longer exist to claim back their people, but the Irish and Sorbs still exist (and as you know the goal of the Irish is to claim back, once "Britishized", Ulster).

Beeskow is not located in today’s Niederlausitz.

What the hell is "today's Niederlausitz" ??? So there is "today's" and "yesterday's" ??? No, there is only one Niederlausitz with defined traditional / historical borders since the 16th century IIRC. And I showed you books (all in German) and maps which mention Beeskow as part of it. Including that book "Kurmarkisch-Wendische Distrikt".

And by the way Sorbs are recognized as a minority in all of Brandenburg, not just in Niederlausitz. So even a Sorb living in Prignitz is still a Sorb.

I once asked you what are the criteria of being part of the Sorbian minority but you didn't explain that, so I guess it is about self-identification.

Also, we don’t know how is the genetic of the German population of Niederlausitz. There have for long times (600-700 years (?)) been loads of non-Sorbs in Lusatia, like in Görlitz and Southern Upper Lusatia.

The majority of Germans in Niederlausitz are most likely descended from Germanized Sorbs.

I doubt that the proportion of Germans in Lusatia (especially Lower Lusatia) 600 years ago was higher than that in Upper Silesia.

And yet, you think that Germans from Upper Silesia are very Slavic as a rule, while Germans from Lusatia only in case of outliers.

BTW in Masuria apparently there were some Germans living in towns founded there, before the arrival of Polish/Mazovian settlers.

[vbnetkhio]

Harvard's Human Origins dataset

which dataset is this? is it available only in fastq/bam?

[Peterski]

which dataset is this? is it available only in fastq/bam?

It is Reich Lab's HO dataset.

[Dunai]

AFAIK, Lower Sorbs are pretty much all germanized by now. Only Upper Sorbs still survive in larger numbers.

You know, most of the Irish can no longer speak Irish, but nobody sane will use their DNA as English references.

And you are suggesting to use a genetically pure Lower Sorb who just lost her language, as a German reference.

As Leto noticed now this "Brandenburg_outlier" will show up in models for a lot of Eastern Europeans as their supposed "German" ancestry. For example I can be modelled as "German_Brandenburg_outlier" plus Dutch, because I'm more western-shifted than this sample.

BTW you know very well that Beeskow is in the region of Niederlausitz, but you called it "German_Brandenburg_outlier".

You could at least call it "German_Niederlausitz" (and probably not such an outlier for local Germans from Niederlausitz).

=====

BTW, all of academic Sorbian samples are Upper Sorbs from one town, Kamenz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamenz

I can see a parallel in the case of the Csángó people of Moldavia (East Romania) who are today mostly Romanian speakers, but since they kept intermarrying in their closed communities (villages) they still have a genetic composition distinct from their Moldavian neighbors, and are very similar to Hungarians in Transylvania, even if most of them are Romanian-speakers today. I believe it's good that they aren't included into the Moldavian averages, but added to the average of the Hungarian-speaking Csángós, since their grandparents and their great-grandparents were mostly Hungarian speakers, or better said speakers of the Csángó dialect of Hungarian.

[Jana]

I can see a parallel in the case of the Csángó people of Moldavia (East Romania) who are today mostly Romanian speakers, but since they kept intermarrying in their closed communities (villages) they still have a genetic composition distinct from their Moldavian neighbors, and are very similar to Hungarians in Transylvania, even if most of them are Romanian-speakers today. I believe it's good that they aren't included into the Moldavian averages, but added to the average of the Hungarian-speaking Csángós, since their grandparents and their great-grandparents were mostly Hungarian speakers, or better said speakers of the Csángó dialect of Hungarian.

I don't see any similarity. Brendenburg woman he is mentioning has only German names and German-speaking ancestors as long as she can trace back her family tree. She is not a Sorb, neither had any knowledge about Sorb ancestry.

[noricum]

It's kind of odd.

I'd say it's complex, but can be explained.

and Styria have visible genetic profile that is Slovenian like.

Carinthia and Styria with boardering parts of todays East Tyrol, Upper and Lower Austria and Salzburgs SE (Lungau) were part of Caranthania. Not only current Carinthia as often

Burgenland is surprisingly different, not so Slavic/south Slavic and more "German shifted" but with notable Slavic also.

Burgenland was devastated and largely depopulated in the Turk wars and resettled with German (relaticly many protestants - less intermarriage) and Croat people afterwards. It only became part of Austria in 1921, being part of the hungarian half before.

looks Swiss like and between SW Germans and Alpine Italians. That's all fine.

Vorarlberg and parts of Tyrol (Außerfern) were settled by Alamanic Speaker, might also increase a western shift relative to other Austrians.

and Upper Austria/Salzburg are mess. Some are SW German like, some are Swiss like, some are Carinthian/Slavic shifted. And these people have deep ancestry in these areas.
We are trying to get few more samples from these regions to estimate what's best to do.

Historically it would make sense to have Germanic-like along the danube river through Northern Salzbugg (Flachgau) then Upper and Lower Austria decreasing from west to east, basically looking like a wedge with Carantanian Slavs to the South and Northern Slav "Czech" influence increasing to the North.
Again Germanic influence should be stronger along the danube and on good soils like Wachau.

[Peterski]

I don't see any similarity. Brendenburg woman he is mentioning has only German names and German-speaking ancestors as long as she can trace back her family tree. She is not a Sorb, neither had any knowledge about Sorb ancestry.

If you read about Beeskow history, you will see it was a 100% ethnic Sorbian area until the 1700s, when it was forcibly Germanized through administrative measures (banning of Sorbian languages in churches and schools, replacing it by German language).

There are even books published by Domowina-Verlag etc. about it, for example:

Frido Mětšk, "Der Kurmärkisch-Wendische Distrikt. Ein Beitrag Zur Geschichte Der Territorien Bärwalde, Beeskow, Storkow, Teupitz und Zossen, Unter Besonderer Berücksichtigung Des 16. Bis 18. Jahrhunderts. [With Plates and Maps.]", Instituts für sorbische Volksforschung in Bautzen.