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I would like to know how people look like, who get those 97%+ matches for the aDNA archetypes.
@Agrippa
Havnt you tested your DNA already? Or too much fear that it could claim you an Arab? ;)
Whether I've done it or not, I think such things are a privacy issue. You have to decide for yourself which data you give to other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
There's a dark influence running through my family and it's been speculated as being many things. Even I personally disclosed to someone that I secretly suspected some East Asian lurking in the wood pile based on our traits. When all along it's simply been evidence of what the most ancient British population looked like.
I think it makes sense to have a distinction between, say Irish and populations like Swedes. Indeed, it seems obvious to expect differences between both populations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa
Well, you seem to have one typical German trait running your venes: German Angst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa
Germans are the most fearfull people on the planet.:D
Problem is, they try to kill whatever makes them afraid.
Obviously the goal is unite these two approaches and one thing is for sure, in real life, the phenotype and the genetic factors behind it are crucial, not neutral genetic variation, which is interesting for geneaology and certain scientific questions, but not the real people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
I mean if you have genes which make you look alike in a group, more attractive, make you physically superiour or more intelligent and the like, this matters most.
And the genotype issue is also insofar problematic, as there were selection and chance involved in forming phenotypes - but selection being based on traits of phenotypical relevance, not variation by chance.
Anyway, we are coming closer and closer to bringing the genotype-phenotype issue to an end - once more and more genetic variants of phenotypical importance being detected.
Uttery nonsense.Quote:
in real life, the phenotype and the genetic factors behind it are crucial
If this ancient nonsense is really what people here believe, this is no place for ME.
good bye :P
Now you sound like some of the Saami on 23andMe:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa
I had a Saami relative stop sharing with me because I revealed only his ancestry painting on a forum. Guess I shouldn't expect others to be as open as me with my results.(these days I ask premission before posting others ancestry information)
There is room for more than one opinion here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
These genetic analyses challenge accepted stereotypes and beliefs. But genes don't lie. I think Polako has done an excellent job. What our genes reveal is definitely more accurate than our (lacking and incomplete) knowledge of history and people movements, and should help us to understand it more and fill in the gaps we are missing.
I don't find these results surprising at all.
"Northern European" and "North Atlantic" are undoubtedly closely related, but it's good work from Polako to separate them in order for us to understand more about, in this case, ancient Germanic settlements and in the genetic impact of the volkerwanderung.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
About Norway - do some of these high North Atlantic percentages not in a way explain the stereotype-challenging images Pallantides have been posting for so long? Not all Norwegians are tall blond Nordids.Quote:
Looking at the British isles alone, its really suggestive of
North Atlantic = Island Celts
North-European = Germanic peoples
But outside of the British Isles this crashes into some strange things:
It makes Germany apear more Celtic than Germanic. This IS imaginable, after all what is now Germany, had only the northern most 1/3 with Germanic tribes and the southern 2/3 Celts. And who knows how much Celts have been Germanized in the Germanic-Celtic wars, 3th-2th century BC.
The southern most third of the country was even not Germanic settled before AD times.
I have always said France's Germanic influence has been downplayed. France has had loads of Germanic tribes settle there - it even got its name from one! Franks, Goths, Burgundians, Normans, and more. We shouldn't be surprised at all. The Frankish Empire was the strongest Germanic kingdom in Europe and dominated Europe for a long time.Quote:
Also looking at France in this run. Much more "Northern European" than "North Atlantic". The run before this run, Ireland centered "North Atlantic" had even be the leading component in France. But from run to run, the algorythm assignes the same alleles to different clusters.
As for some Americans showing very high NE - again, it shouldn't be a surprise. America had high numbers of immigration from all over Northern Europe, especially in the northern parts of the US, which is - in parts - almost exclusively Norwegian-German. If successive generations then pair with others who are similar, it yields this result.
By the way, isn't Diogenes Artemis even using White Utahns as the sample population for Europeans?
I would do the same thing. That is, stop sharing with anyone who posted my info without permission. And I have done that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
My results are strange, for example my North Atlantic score is 26.3% but my ancestry is around the European part of Black Sea. :confused: How can a easterner get such high North Atlantic?
If I had "26% North European" it would make more sense due to Varangians and what not, but I have 0%. Anyways I'm not criticizing it but it probably reflects some very ancient pre-Neolithic migrations or something.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._in_Europe.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Bastarnae
Maybe you're related to those Celts in Ukraine? :D
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bits...9D?sequence=12Quote:
Originally Posted by Apotheosis
^Looking at this Celtic place names map, it seems possible.
..But if I was really was Celtish I would have to have some "western European" to go along with the Atlantic, but I don't... I think it would all make perfect sense if my Atlantic was swapped for North European instead.. but my North Eurasian and South European scores were dead on, so I can't complain.
Anyways, I declare myself semi-Celtic from now on...
http://i51.tinypic.com/10po75d.jpg
So you'd stop sharing with someone who said 'I have Finnish 5th cousin, their ancestry painting is 99%, 1% Asian'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aino
Some people have posted some of my 23andMe information in public without asking me first or putting my results up on various spreadsheets, If something happened to be to private(wich quite frankly is very little for me, when it come to my ancestry as I have nothing to hide) I'd ask them politly to remove it but I'll not act like an ass over it and I'll continue sharing with them as they will probably remember to ask next time.
The info I posted was hardly very revaling (Saami 5th cousin, ancestry precentages)
Well, thats a "German" trait in me. I am the owner of the ultimative truth. :winkQuote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
I appretice what Polako does.
But lets say, for matching language groups, we had better runs than this one.
On the other hand, it was Intra-Northern European. And it used random SNP instead of selected ones.
It reproduced Romance, Germanic and Balto-Slavic language groups almost perfect, I was amazed.
It looked like this:
(I used a different style to make the maps back then. But it was like this, that all language groups shared one "leading cluster".
The try to make this stabile and repeatable, by the use of dummies for the components, led to the components strongly bleed out into the surounding terretories (the component that apeared to be the lead component in Germanic speaking countries, doubled, sometimes trippled in the far way regions)
Wlel, it looked like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastarnae
I had the same curiousity once i had seen my results. My north-atlantic component is almost 42% ; ok, i'm from a western sector of European continent and i can't compare my case with yours, but still i'm quite distant from the (supposed) cradle of N-A in the british isles.
Looks like this "north-atlantic" is the revelation of this plot. But it's obvious we will see a long serie of progresses and little revolutions of intepretation.
Anyway.....for the moment, seems that the "celts" have travelled through Europe more than the bravest germanic horde ;)
Scandinavian Eurogenes participants EU7b scores, from highest to lowest.
Southeast Baltic:
SE9 - 32.37
SE12 - 26.18
SE16 - 22.94
SE4 - 19.34
SE7 - 18.83
NO7 - 18.12
SE11 - 16.53
SE2 - 16.33
SE5 - 15.83
NO6 - 15.48
SE1 - 15.47
SE14 - 14.06
NO8 - 13.45
NO2 - 13.39
NO10 - 13.08
SE10 - 13.06
SE13 - 12.73
SE6 - 12.05
NO5 - 11.76
DK4 - 11.16
SENO1 - 9.73
SE15 - 9.28
NO3 - 7.93
DK3 - 7.79
NO9 - 7.29
DK2 - 6.46
SENO2 - 6.45
SE8 - 5.25
NO4 - 5.01
Northern European:
SENO2 - 92.1
SE5 - 83.15
DK2 - 81.95
SE4 - 80.49
SE8 - 75.99
SE10 - 71.97
SENO1 - 71.92
SE1 - 64.38
NO3 - 62.28
NO10 - 61.86
SE14 - 58.59
SE6 - 56.63
NO4 - 56.55
SE11 - 56.55
NO8 - 52.52
NO6 - 49.24
DK3 - 44.53
SE7 - 44.44
SE9 - 41.84
NO9 - 41.39
SE15 - 37.34
SE16 - 34.17
SE13 - 32.43
NO5 - 27.13
NO2 - 16.7
SE12 - 15.13
DK4 - 6.56
SE2 - 5.49
NO7 - 1.18
North Atlantic:
NO7 - 76.21
SE2 - 73.71
DK4 - 70.1
NO2 - 69.0
NO5 - 56.53
SE12 - 56.25
SE13 - 51.49
NO9 - 45.15
SE15 - 41.69
NO4 - 37.22
SE16 - 34.83
NO8 - 33.1
NO6 - 32.66
NO3 - 28.93
SE6 - 27.24
DK3 - 26.68
SE7 - 26.32
SE9 - 24.99
NO10 - 24.91
SE14 - 22.76
SE11 - 18.85
SE8 - 18.45
SENO1 - 17.8
SE1 - 14.88
SE10 - 14.75
DK2 - 4.51
SENO2 - 0.0
SE4 - 0.0
SE5 - 0.0
East and/or North Eurasian:
SE16 - 4.22
SE7 - 2.81
SE2 - 1.68
NO7 - 1.63
SE12 - 1.27
SE5 - 1.0
NO4 - 0.98
NO6 - 0.94
NO8 - 0.91
NO2 - 0.88
NO3 - 0.83
SE9 - 0.78
SENO2 - 0.66
NO5 - 0.59
SENO1 - 0.53
SE8 - 0.30
SE10 - 0.19
SE4 - 0.15
SE13 - 0.13
NO10 - 0.13
DK3 - 0.03
NO9 - 0.01
DK2 - 0.0
DK4 - 0.0
SE1 - 0.0
SE6 - 0.0
SE11 - 0.0
SE14 - 0.0
SE15 - 0.0
Sub-Saharan African:
All zero
Southern European:
DK4 - 12.16
SE1 - 5.25
SE6 - 4.06
SE12 - 3.19
SE2 - 2.77
SE15 - 1.21
NO6 - 1.0
NO4 - 0.21
DK2 - 0.2
SE16 - 0.15
DK3 - 0.0
NO2 - 0.0
NO3 - 0.0
NO5 - 0.0
NO7 - 0.0
NO8 - 0.0
NO9 - 0.0
NO10 - 0.0
SENO1 - 0.0
SENO2 - 0.0
SE4 - 0.0
SE5 - 0.0
SE7 - 0.0
SE8 - 0.0
SE9 - 0.0
SE10 - 0.0
SE11 - 0.0
SE12 - 0.0
SE14 - 0.0
Western European:
DK3 - 20.62
SE15 - 10.45
SE11 - 8.05
SE7 - 7.57
DK2 - 6.86
NO9 - 6.13
SE14 - 4.56
NO5 - 3.86
SE16 - 3.66
NO7 - 2.83
SE12 - 1.14
SENO2 - 0.77
NO6 - 0.65
DK4 - 0.0
NO2 - 0.0
NO3 - 0.0
NO4 - 0.0
NO8 - 0.0
NO10 - 0.0
SENO1 - 0.0
SE1 - 0.0
SE2 - 0.0
SE4 - 0.0
SE5 - 0.0
SE6 - 0.0
SE8 - 0.0
SE9 - 0.0
SE10 - 0.0
SE13 - 0.0
Interesting idea ;)
Germans, Austrians and Swiss
I add German/Polish mixes for comparation, because of my 2/3 "Eastern Terretories" anchestry.
Southeast Baltic:
DEPL2 - 34%
DEPL1 - 32%
DE1 - 24%(Thuringia, Saxony, Silesia)
DE5 - 23% (100% eastern terretories, now Poland)
DE8 - 21% (25% Westphalia, 50% Silesia, 25% East Prussia)
DE11 - 20% (50% Rhineland Palatinate, 50% Eastern Terretories)
DE16 - 20%
DE15 - 15%
DE12 - 15%
DE9 - 14%
DE10 - 13% (Bavaria, Hessia, Alsace (now France) )
DE17 - 12%
DE13 - 11%
DE7 - 10% (50% German baltic coast, 25% Baden Würthemberg, 12,5% Hessian, 12,5% Swiss)
AT1 - 8%
CH1 - 7%
DE14 - 6%
CH3 - 2%
Northern European
DE14 - 73%
DE7 - 63% (50% German baltic coast, 25% Baden Würthemberg, 12,5% Hessian, 12,5% Swiss)
DE8 -54% (25% Westphalia, 50% Silesia, 25% East Prussia)
CH3 - 38%
CH1 - 36%
AT1 - 33%
DE5 - 31% (100% eastern terretories, now Poland)
DE10 - 27% (Bavaria, Hessia, Alsace (now France)
DE17 - 27%
DE12 - 23%
DE11 - 21% (50% Rhineland Palatinate, 50% Eastern Terretories)
DEPL2 - 19%
DE13 - 16%
DE9 - 16%
DE16 - 14%
DE1 - 8% (Thuringia, Saxony, Silesia)
DE15 - 2%
DEPL1 - 0%
North Atlantic
DE15 - 56%
DE13 - 56%
DE1 - 52% (Thuringia, Saxony, Silesia)
DE9 - 49%
DE17 - 44%
DEPL1 - 40%
DE16 - 37%
DE12 - 35%
DE11 - 30% (50% Rhineland Palatinate, 50% Eastern Terretories)
DE5 - 30% (100% eastern terretories, now Poland)
DE10 - 30% (Bavaria, Hessia, Alsace (now France)
AT1 - 28%
CH1 - 24%
DEPL2 - 24%
DE8 - 3% (25% Westphalia, 50% Silesia, 25% East Prussia)
DE7 - 2% (50% German baltic coast, 25% Baden Würthemberg, 12,5% Hessian, 12,5% Swiss)
CH3 - 1%
DE14 - 0%
African and Asian all zero
Southern European
CH3 - 39%
DE12 - 26%
CH1 - 18%
DE11 - 17% (50% Rhineland Palatinate, 50% Eastern Terretories)
AT1 - 17%
DE14 - 16%
DE1 - 15% (Thuringia, Saxony, Silesia)
DE16 - 14%
DE10 - 14% (Bavaria, Hessia, Alsace (now France)
DE7 - 12% (50% German baltic coast, 25% Baden Würthemberg, 12,5% Hessian, 12,5% Swiss)
DEPL2 - 11%
DE8 - 11% (25% Westphalia, 50% Silesia, 25% East Prussia)
DE13 - 8%
DE5 - 8% (100% eastern terretories, now Poland)
DE9 -1%
DE15 - 0%
DE17 - 0%
Western European:
DE15 - 27%
DEPL1 - 25%
DE9 - 21%
CH3 - 20%
DE17 - 17%
DE10 - 17% (Bavaria, Hessia, Alsace (now France)
DE16 - 16%
CH1 - 15%
AT1 - 14%
DE7 - 13% (50% German baltic coast, 25% Baden Würthemberg, 12,5% Hessian, 12,5% Swiss)
DE11 - 12% (50% Rhineland Palatinate, 50% Eastern Terretories)
DE8 - 10% (25% Westphalia, 50% Silesia, 25% East Prussia)
DEPL2 - 12%
DE13 - 9%
DE5 - 8% (100% eastern terretories, now Poland)
DE14 - 5%
DE12 -0%
DE1 - 0% (Thuringia, Saxony, Silesia)
Don't know how this compares to the averages. Anyway there's my scores.
01.61% South East Baltic
40.65% Norn European
46.42% Norn Atlantic
00.00% Eas/Norn Euroasian
00.00% Sub Saharan Africa
03.89% South European
07.43% Western European
I did maps of the averages:Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...&postcount=584
I compare it for you:
01.61% (Scottish Average: 4%) South East Baltic (Lithuania centered)
40.65% (Scottish Average: 30%) Norn European (Sweden centered)
46.42% (Scottish Average: 48%) Norn Atlantic (Ireland centered)
00.00% Eas/Norn Euroasian
00.00% Sub Saharan Africa
03.89% (Scottish Average: 0%) South European (Greece centered)
07.43% (Scottish Average: 17%) Western European (Spain centered)
Seems You to are also more Northern European than me and less North Atlantic.
Graham/Pallantides/Scottish average - North Atlantic
46.42%/69.0%/48%
Graham/Pallantides/Scottish average - North European
40.65%/16.7%/30%
I like graphical depictions, so I made some to support my claims made already, namely that Northern European-North Atlantic and Western European-Southern European are split in a strange way individually, without a meaningful pattern, just compare for the Contintental Germanics (Dutch, German, Austrian, Swiss), Northern Europeans (DK, SE, NO, FI) and the Italian sample:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1310165595
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1310165600
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1310165600
At least in this Central parts of Europe (but pretty much the rest too), from North to South, the components Northern-North Atlantic and Western-Southern are practically indistinguishable, if you sum them up to "Northern vs. Southern", the distribution makes sense, there is a logical pattern, otherwise not, if looking at individuals in which only one of the related components being counted at all!
If you sum them up, there is a logical and pretty much natural, biologically meaningful pattern, especially if comparing Northern Europe - Contintental Germanics - Italians in a row.
The only other important and as it seems independent 3rd component is Southern Baltic, as a clear indicator of Eastern-North Eastern ancestry - probably even "old Mesolithic" (?) ancestry.
How the related to identical components (Northern+North Atlantic vs. Western+Southern) being split individually is a methodological problem obviously and one might question whether it makes sense at all, if looking at the patterns.
Now I add the Spaniards and French - again, North vs. South makes sense, the split of the related components IN MOST individuals not:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1310167085
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1310167108
I'm pretty sure the reason for this pattern for Western vs. Southern is that there were Basques or genetically closely related people included in the sample!
It is pretty obvious if looking at the French and Spaniards - most split up, in many ways, but some are just "Western European" and that Basque component is not easily to transmit into something meaningful for the rest of Europe.
Its what Polako already said.
Especially the North-West is genetically extremly homogenious, wich makes it hard to find a meaningfull split.
But he still tries.
But I am still sure in the end it will be much better than measuring shapes of noses and theeth. ;)
:p I've perhaps asked before, but is/are the home territory/ies of your ancestors in a particularly remote or inaccessible valley?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweo
I have put down my ancestry here:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...abba7a0f4c6d96
*There have been a lot of migration within Norway over the years but the core area of my ancestry lies in Oppland... I guess it wasn't inaccessible enough.:)Quote:
Norwegian, with ancestry from Oppland, Buskerud, Akershus, Hedmark, Sogn og Fjordane, Trøndelag, Nordland, Västra Götaland(Sweden) and 17th century Savonia(Finland)
On the other hand....
Repeatedly we had a mysterious connection between Ireland and Norway now.
Also Dienekes "Western European" has a double center Ireland/Norway.
When I checked where exactly in Norway it centeres (not in this run but one of the INtra North ones), then Scandinavian North-Atlantic centered at the most western Coast of Norway and dropped like a stone at the border to Sweden.
While in Ireland it centered at the Western coast too.
If one digs one of those Anthrophology cave monkeys maps about "phenotypes" out of the shit, the "North Atlantic" of that (not this) run kind of correlated with the Trönder terretory or Ireland and Norway.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1310167393
I edited my post above, I'm now pretty sure that the Western-Southern dichotomy is the result of Basques being included in this run and that the program had a problem to attribute that category to the rest, if looking through the samples, it is pretty obvious in my opinion.
Or has anybody else a better idea?
The Northern vs. North Atlantic split will be based on something similar one might call a distortion.
There is no meaningful explanation for the pattern.
Some of the Finns have a pred. "North Atlantic" component in their "Northern components" make up too, in Norway itself it is RANDOM!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
You just try to make sense out of it, like some others did, when there is non, at least not on an individual basis, at least not for the populations/individuals I made the graphs of.
I made a graph of some British individuals, note the random pattern in the related components:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...1&d=1310168563
Except for Britain on the averages basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa
In the British Isles the "Northern European" is clearly higher in the "Germanic settled" terretory.
While "North Atlantic" is clearly higher in the Celtic dominated ones.
So, there IS a meaning full pattern. If not on individual base, but on average base.
"Some of the Finns have a pred. "North Atlantic" component in their "Northern components" make up too, in Norway itself it is RANDOM!"
I didnt mean THIS RUN man!
I meant one of the older runs.
You make me fuckign anrgy with your false believe in your strange fashist religion!
War and dead for them anthrophologists!
Kill them all and take their women as whores!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
:confused::blink:
I was fucking talking about 200k random SNP Intra northern European run.
In that motherfucking damn run, wich was one of the nicest I ever fucking saw!!
*Beats down on the fucking table*
There was a smooth decline of "NOrth Atlantic" inside of Scandinavia from the Coast to the center.
I'm obviously talking about the current run, so what's the fuzz about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
Polako himself noticed rightly that he kept some designations, but because of the new runs frame it is not really the same component any more.
I'm not saying that you can't distinguish Irish from Swedish and so on, I'm just saying that the related components of this run (Northern+North Atlantic vs. Western+Southern) make no sense for the vast majority of individuals and are often randomly distributed.
Not every component of an admixture run is supposed to make sense or "showing something real", especially not on an individual level...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
As an answer to what I actually said, that sounds pretty much psychotic. Did you forget to take some pills tonight or have you taken too many? :coffee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
You mean this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...CL3V9_sL#gid=0
My North Sea was 42.17 and North Atlantic was 40.62.
A fairly even split.
Berserks dont need pills to become enraged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa
But probably to calm down :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Frederick
Off-topic, but Coon's racial map is incredibly hard to read. Seriously, why couldn't he have made it color-coded or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick