Of course. Dalmatian, Lika and Banija Serbs which I posted and all are similar, and they are similar to you and HungryLion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
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Of course. Dalmatian, Lika and Banija Serbs which I posted and all are similar, and they are similar to you and HungryLion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
They cluster closer to Croats than to Serbs because like all diaspora groups they absorbed native Croatian population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pribislav
the "HungryLion cluster" doesn't seem to be pulled towards any group of Croats, it seems to be germanic admixture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
a cluster of Serbs from west Serbia is also close to them
I mentioned how German soldiers and officials also settled military frontier. Keep in mind Kajkavian Croats are also NW shifted.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Banovina for example was originally Kajkavian-speaking region.
Some of these dudes plot closer to Ayetooey, who is half British, than to his Dalmatian Serb father, so there obviously not in anyway typical Krajina Serbs.
i have Kajkavian results too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
the HungryLion cluster could barely be a mix of the absolutely most western plotting Montenegrin outlier and the absolutely most western plotting Croat outlier, who is a Burgenland Croat, so very probably mixed with Austrians. what are the odds.
it could be those German soldiers.. or some other historical contact between Serbs and Germanics. there is a lot of various Germanic y-dna haplogroups in the Balkans.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_...shtml#Germanic
this is a Serb from Serbia academic kit with Germanic admixture, but also very paleo Balkanic. doesn't plot too far from HungryLion.
Kit WP4899669
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.83
2 Baltic 25.22
3 West_Med 15.54
4 East_Med 12.78
5 West_Asian 10.19
6 Red_Sea 1.61
7 Siberian 0.96
8 Amerindian 0.74
9 East_Asian 0.09
10 Oceanian 0.04
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 6.05
2 Hungarian 7.11
3 Austrian 7.45
4 Romanian 8.82
5 East_German 9.93
6 West_German 10.5
7 Moldavian 10.71
8 Croatian 11.44
9 Bulgarian 11.84
10 South_Dutch 12.11
11 French 12.61
12 North_German 15.62
13 North_Italian 16.41
14 South_Polish 16.9
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 17.32
16 Portuguese 17.46
17 Southeast_English 17.66
18 Spanish_Galicia 17.75
19 Spanish_Cataluna 17.76
20 Danish 18.08
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.6% Romanian + 32.4% North_Dutch @ 1.08
2 69.4% Romanian + 30.6% Norwegian @ 1.15
3 69.5% Romanian + 30.5% Irish @ 1.19
4 62.7% Bulgarian + 37.3% Norwegian @ 1.27
5 68.6% Romanian + 31.4% Orcadian @ 1.29
6 60.8% Bulgarian + 39.2% North_Dutch @ 1.32
7 64.1% Romanian + 35.9% North_German @ 1.37
8 70.3% Romanian + 29.7% West_Scottish @ 1.38
9 67.4% Romanian + 32.6% Danish @ 1.41
10 57% Bulgarian + 43% North_German @ 1.49
11 62.9% Bulgarian + 37.1% Irish @ 1.55
12 60.6% Bulgarian + 39.4% Danish @ 1.6
13 61.8% Bulgarian + 38.2% Orcadian @ 1.6
14 63.8% Bulgarian + 36.2% West_Scottish @ 1.76
15 77.5% Austrian + 22.5% Central_Greek @ 1.82
16 75.6% Austrian + 24.4% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.9
17 64.3% Serbian + 35.7% West_German @ 1.91
18 85% Austrian + 15% Cyprian @ 1.92
19 67.1% Romanian + 32.9% Southeast_English @ 1.93
20 68.7% Romanian + 31.3% Swedish @ 1.95
I think that Krajina Serb average is closer to my result than to these ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
You're in the normal range if I compare you to my matches. Tbh, even some Dalmatian Croats I match with are closer to you than these guys are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
Burgerland Croats for sure have Austrian admixture. And probably Hungarian as well. I know some of them and individually few look typically German.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
In my opinion Krajina Serbs are genetically diverse. Some appear typically Serb or even Montenegrin, some appear typically Bosnian or not different from Croats and some are West-Central Euro shifted.
I observe similar genetic variety in Dalmatia as well.
Some Dalmatian Croats are very Slavic shifted (in direction of Ukraine), some are quite western and appear central euro like and some are very Balkan shifted and can even approach Bulgarians.
Krajina was deserted and uninhabited due to Ottoman-Austrian wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
There are no native medieval population from this region in our genetics.
No, that is false. Population just declined. There are plenty of Krajina Serbs who are genetically more Croat than Serb like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
And it is visible in surnames.
Vrkić is typical Croatian surname and among Krajina Serbs it is from locals.
Spot on Attachment 92007Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
It is well known and historically recorded that most of population fled due to Ottoman-Austrian wars. Some who stayed got islamicized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
Krajina Serbs are now mixing with Serbia's Serbs and we are going to be in next generation more closer to them and further from Croats or anyone else.
Well that's obvious. Your results for example are not Croat-like. You seem like a typical Serb with more Slav admixture than is average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
Military frontier had mixed population, for example Croatian population steadily declined trough centuries and only later Serbs became majority.
In beginnings of it Croats were majority. Later came Serbs, Vlachs, some Germans, Hungarians.
Even after Serbs became majority population they never came close to being 100% in the region.
there was no actual Vlachs in that area i believe, Vlachs was a derogatory term for Serbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
like today in the Balkans "Cigan" is used as an insult. but it's also an ethnic group.
the only two clear clusters among Serbs are the more southern Montenegrins and all other Serbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
regions like Lika or Western Serbia mean nothing for autosomal. even Serbs from the same town, Dvor na Uni plot in 2 separate clusters.
btw did you see my plot of Croats (results provided by ph2ter) on page 58 of this thread?
It wasn't an insult in that time but social status. I am convinced actual Vlachs migrated with Serbs though. In great Serb migrations to Vojvodina ethnic composition was also mixed except being predominately Serbian.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Even among Burgerland Croats there is a ''Vlach'' subgroup.
Yes, very nice work. How would you define my family in terms of clustering ?Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Why do you think that? There is no linguistic or even upfront historical evidence for a migration of Romance speaking people in that direction, with the exception, of course, of Istro-Romanians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
I think Štokavian dialect was created as fussion between Slavic and Vlach groups. Maybe you didn't know but North/Kajkavian Croats call all Štokavians Vlachs, including Croats štokavians.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonSense
Also sherperding lifestyle had to be adopted upon interaction with Vlachs.
My opinion is remnants of Vlachs were always minority among migrating SW Slavs but never completely assimilated until later on.
As far as I know, there were no Hungarian and German setllers in Krajina (Banija, Kordun, Lika and Northern Dalmatia). They settled in Slavonia, along with Czechs, Slovaks and some other ethnic groups, but not in Krajina.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
I didn't said that Serbs were 100% in Krajina alone, but 70-80%, and what is important there were few of villages were Serbs and Croats lived together. Most setllements were monoethnic. Serbs lived in their villages, Croats lived in their own villages.
This map of part of Lika show that. Red are Serbs, blue are Croats.
https://i.imgur.com/5JAeDqp.jpg
This situation, along with religious difference, is fact that there were very low rate of mixing and intermarriage.
Guys, please we don't need politization of this!
Burgerland Croats dialacts by origin before they fled Croatia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...gin_theory.png
Notice the Vlai one ? Those are Štokavian migrants, minority among mostly Chakavian refugess. Even Kajkavian group moved with them.
Dialects
Štoj dialect: dialect of the Croatian folklore group Štoji (Güttenbach, Stinatz, Neuberg), is a Shtokavian–(south)Chakavian mixed dialect
Vlah dialect: dialect of the Vlahi, is a Shtokavian dialect in Weiden bei Rechnitz, Zuberbach, Althodis, Schandorf, Dürnbach, Allersdorf, etc., is Shtokavian (schacavian) ikavian dialect similar to Slavonian
Dolinci dialect: dialect of the Dolinci in Unterpullendorf, Frankenau, Kleinmutschen, etc. is a (middle)Chakavian dialect
Poljan dialect: dialect of the Poljanci near Lake Neusiedl, is a (middle)Chakavian dialect
Hac dialect: Chakavian dialect of Haci near Neusiedl
some Croats speak a Kajkavian dialect near Neusiedl
Grob dialect: a Kajkavian dialect, spoken in Chorvátsky Grob in Slovakia
There is strong corelation with Štokavian and name Vlach. I don't think it is a coincidence.
maybe the Serbian Vlach class who had already lost their Vlach language and genetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
genetically the most Vlach Serbs are Montenegrins.
even Shops from southeast Serbia who were by social status a shepherd/Vlach group can reach to the center of Croatian cluster by Slavicness.
Commanders were most often Germans. Some teachers and administration as well. In many frontier school classes were held in German, such as in grammar school Tesla attended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan
Religious differences mostly prevented mixing, but it can never be excluded.
Gypsies were almost slaves and untouchables in Romania and they have large Balkan admixture today.
you are in the center of Croatian Cluster. i forgot all your ancestries you mentioned.. you have some Herzegovinian or Bosnian Croat,Bosniak and Serb influence? you are slightly north of all of that because of your Croatian Croat and German ancestry i guessQuote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
by you i mean you and your parents, i took roughly a centerpoint between your 3 kits. your parents seem similar to each other , you should be too but it's a little bit misarranged becuase of different qualities of your kits.
Actually all my Croatian ancestry is from Croatian-Croats. But thing is large part of Croatian-Croats are by origin partly from BiH, especially in Dalmatia and Slavonia going centuries back.
My mother has little Serbian ancestry, and my father is quater Bosniak. There should be some German in there but G25 says I have practically none except for my mtDNA.
It's interesting how similar my parents are.
i also sometimes think that looking at how Shtokavian is melodic, like a Romance language. but i think this happened earlier than you think. this is a Serbian text somewhere from pre-Turkish times, the writer got relaxed andQuote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
wrote some phrases in his everyday language instead of old church Slavonic.
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=4578.0Quote:
:г͠: Аще кто деѡ свои꙼ ꙁапишеть комꙋ и припишеть на кога, и аще бꙋдеть вь томь писани ꙁаписано и ѡномꙋ дїꙗкꙋ кои е писаѡ, то да се не вѣрꙋеⷮ:
4. deo - umiesto del;
5. na koga - umiesto na kogo;
6. koi je pisao - umiesto iže jest pisal;
Serb from Bajina Bašta and Užička Požega, surname Spasović:Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
K15
North_Sea 20.92
Baltic 18.04
Atlantic 16.12
Eastern_Euro 13.97
West_Med 13.22
East_Med 11.24
West_Asian 6.12
Oceanian 0.37
Serb from Kordun, surname Grmuša (he is I2a1b):
K15
North_Sea 19.29
Atlantic 18.82
Baltic 16.44
Eastern_Euro 14.67
West_Med 14.33
East_Med 9.91
West_Asian 5.5
Siberian 0.42
Oceanian 0.37
Amerindian 0.22
Northeast_African 0.03
Interesting. To me Štokavian dialects don't have the typical Slavic intonation. Čakavian received clear Romance influence as well but it is softer and more arhaic sounding in comparison with Štokavian.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Štokavian to me often sounds harsh and very clear. Kajkavian sounds very Slavic in comparison.
Their K13.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pribislav
Spasović
Baltic 31.86
North_Atlantic 26.63
West_Med 19.89
East_Med 11.26
West_Asian 9.94
Siberian 0.23
Red_Sea 0.19
Grmuša
Baltic 30.26
North_Atlantic 28.63
West_Med 20.39
East_Med 11. 16
West_Asian 8.74
Siberian 0.43
Red_Sea 0.39
https://i.imgur.com/IbT4KiL.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Pribislav
here. could you please post unsorted resluts(when possible) and k36 results too.
or post result like this if it doesn't take too much time(example):
name,34.56,18.23,0,0,34.56....(with 0s included)
Unfortunately I don't have their K36, only K13 and K15.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
ok, i already plotted these two, i mean for the next results you'll post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pribislav
the most convenient format for me is horizontal, with commas and zero values, like that example i posted
this is ok too, copied straight from gedmatch, like this:
Population
North_Atlantic 32.83 Pct
Baltic 25.22 Pct
West_Med 15.54 Pct
West_Asian 10.19 Pct
East_Med 12.78 Pct
Red_Sea 1.61 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.09 Pct
Siberian 0.96 Pct
Amerindian 0.74 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
I don't have much time forum since mid of September and I writte from my phone and that is different than from computer, but OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
This is very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
Štokavian (cummunist umbrella for Serbian language) sounds like old Latin, only have Slavic vocabular.
i appreciate every result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pribislav
i just said if you have unsorted results, or enough time to format them, post them like that, if not,sorted is ok too.
because i collect results in an excel table, and it's way easier to add unsorted results to it
and i plan to make all kinds of statistics from that table in the future, not only pca.
maybe something like these graphs:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-GEDMATCH-KITS
Catholic sounding and ikavian surnames exist among Krajina Serbs, like: Ivančić, Jerkan, Stipanović, Sikirica, Bilić, Ivanković, Jurašin, Bilčar, Cvitkovac, Jurković, Marinčić, Marin, Matijaš, Matas, Gambiroža, Šimić, Mišina, Josić etc. That is not conected with Croatians but with the fact that large part of Serbs were Catholics before Sveti Sava and even after him, and with the fact that in some parts of Dalmatia and W. Bosnia Serbs have ikavian reflex of yat (Livno, Duvno, Kupres, Sinj areas, and some villages around Vrlika and Drniš, and few Village near Split and Klis).Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
Thats not more than 1% of Krajina Serb surnames. There are more surname with turkish sound (like mine), but it has nothing to do with Turks but just borrowed words for some things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pribislav
Most of surnames up which I post exist among Dalmatian Serbs, among them there is most "Catholic" sounding/shifted surnames, but I say again that is not conected with Croatians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dušan