Thanks for the link!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp Snow
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Thanks for the link!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp Snow
Yea pamiris, tajiks, yaghnobis have ancient east eurasianQuote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
When we look at some Eastern Saka samples from Central Asia. Yes most of it might actually be from their ancient ancestors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babak
Ancient pre-Shekh Adi Yezidism is older than Parthians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
To be more clear: the Yezidism has Northern Mesopotamian roots and predate the Medes/Parthians by thousands of years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eline
Yeah that is what I wrote it, roots date back to old Median times which itself had adopted ancient Mesopotamian elements such as planet cult, as by Prof. Kreyenbroek but the Parthian Dynasty changed that old religion in the way of making Mithra the personification of the sun. It literally connected the sun specifically to Mithra. And according to Kreyenbroek who was in Lalish there is a place of a burned down statue which according to him is most likely Mithra since Lalish itself is build the style of old Mithraistic underground shrines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eline
Half Pontic/Azov Greek, half Balkan Greek
Caucasus 41.14%
Atlantic_Med 19.5%
North_European 17.4%
Southwest_Asian 10.22%
Gedrosia 9.22%
Northwest_African 1.23%
Siberian 0.46%
Sub_Saharan 0.28%
South_Asian 0.23%
Southeast_Asian 0.17%
East_African 0.11%
East_Asian 0.05%
Distance to: Greek
6.21492558 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
8.39525461 Greek_Crete
10.58143658 Ashkenazy_Jews
10.61432749 Italy_Apulia
10.86551886 Turk_West_BlackSea
11.19597249 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
11.38857761 Greek
12.05950662 Ashkenazi
12.21228001 Italy_Calabria
12.55623530 Italy_Sicily
12.58181227 Turk_Central_West
12.64809970 Italy_Campania
13.21866164 Italy_Abruzzo
13.25240733 Turk_Anatolia
13.27311945 Turk_Northwest
13.60744282 Turk_Southwest
13.79426330 Greek_Cappadocia
13.80401029 Turk_Central_East
14.92951439 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
15.03976729 Turk_South
Target: Greek
Distance: 2.5774% / 2.57736521 | ADC: 0.5x
71.8 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
18.2 Greek_Cappadocia
7.8 Ashkenazy_Jews
2.2 Abhkasians
Target: Greek
Distance: 1.3999% / 1.39988911 | ADC: 0.25x
61.4 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
13.8 Ashkenazy_Jews
8.2 Greek_Crete
5.8 Abhkasians
4.8 Cypriots
4.4 Georgian_Gurian
1.6 Greek
Unupdated oracle:
Target: Greek
Distance: 2.9151% / 2.91514190 | ADC: 0.5x
55.2 Greek
41.2 Turkish
3.6 Lezgins
Target: Greek
Distance: 1.4008% / 1.40083632 | ADC: 0.25x
48.4 Greek
22.0 Turkish
12.8 Lezgins
12.0 Ashkenazy_Jews
4.0 Lebanese
0.8 Chechens
Let's not derail the thread too much. When it's page after page without any results it is no good.
Yezidis don't use the word 'Mithra', but they use the ancient Mesopotamian/Sumerian (Akkadians took it later from the Sumerians) word for the Sun, 'Shems'. Shamas is a Mesopotamian/Sumerian word for the Sun, and the Yezidis use that word. They say Xode Shems and not Xode Mithra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
Mithra deity itself is derived from the Sumerian Shamas..
Mithra underground shrine.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/site...nt-Clement.jpg
Lalish underground shrine, according to Kreyenbroek there at the end of the tunnel there is a place typical for a Mithra statue and he assumes it was most likely destroyed by Christians
https://www.richardwilding.com/wp-co...Lalish-010.jpg
The reason is because they were chased not only by muslims but earlier also by Christians. And even more earlier by Zoroastrians who literally declared Mithra as a Daeva (evil Gods) and people who worshipped him as Daeva worshippers (evil worshippers, sounds familiar doesn't it?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eline
They even replaced old angel names by modern Abrahamic names. Using the word Mithra might have brought you into a lot of trouble.
There are a lot tunnels and secrets in Lalish. The Yezidism is a closed religion and it is very mysterious to non-Yezidis. Yezidis don't like to share their secrets with the outside word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
Yeah they are many similarities and it is possible that the 'new' religion of the Parthians influenced the Yezidis, like later reforms of Shekh Adi.
But the Parthians took their 'Sun'-worshiping from the much more ancient Mesopotamians/Yezidis.
So, it is possible that the ancient Yezidis first influenced the Parthians and made them believe in a Sun God, but later those Parthians influenced the Yezidis.
Also take in mind as I wrote Mithra became literally the personification of the sun so Mithra and Sun were interchangable names.
Xode Shams would literally mean "God of Sun or Sun God". Xode Mithra would make no sense. Since it would mean "Mithra God or God of Mithra". it makes no sense to name your God after you have already called him god.
Most Yezidis literally know little to nothing about their religion pre Sheikh Adi's reforms. I have seen Yezidis who literally believe Sheikh Adi started their religion. So what secrets could they tell "foreigners".Quote:
Originally Posted by Eline
Sorry if I sound rude. But I rather believe a person who has made his Prof and Dr. titles in Iranistics while studying decades long about Iranic culture and language, Yazdanism. Than some Yazidi elders who believe Sheikh Adi brought them their religion.
It's like asking my father about human race who things before Abrahamic religion Humans didn't exist or lived in caves. Old People, especially those who have been forced to accept a "reality" that isn't true, are not very knowledged.
A Gujarati woman, her Jewish husband and their mixed race daughter
Photo
# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 51.31
2 Gedrosia 37.48
3 Caucasus 4.75
4 North_European 3.24
5 Atlantic_Med 1.41
6 Siberian 1.38
7 Sub_Saharan 0.44
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) 3.54
2 Indian (Dodecad) 3.88
3 GIH30 (Dodecad) 4.96
4 Iyer (Dodecad) 5.05
5 Iyengar (Dodecad) 5.13
6 INS30 (SGVP) 5.96
7 Kshatriya (Metspalu) 6.94
8 Dharkars (Metspalu) 7.27
9 Tharus (Metspalu) 7.51
10 Muslim (Metspalu) 8.37
11 Velamas (Metspalu) 8.47
12 Kanjars (Metspalu) 8.68
13 Cochin_Jews (Behar) 9.93
14 Tamil_Nadu_Scheduled_Caste (Metspalu) 11.81
15 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh (Metspalu) 11.85
16 Uttar_Pradesh_Scheduled_Caste (Metspalu) 12.79
17 Kurumba (Metspalu) 13.68
18 Dusadh (Metspalu) 14.18
19 Piramalai_Kallars (Metspalu) 16.57
20 Kol (Metspalu) 17.4
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.5% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6.5% Turkish (Dodecad) @ 1.92
2 93.5% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6.5% Turks (Behar) @ 1.97
3 68.6% Kurumba (Metspalu) + 31.4% Pathan (HGDP) @ 2.06
4 94% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 2.12
5 94% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.14
6 94.3% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.7% Cypriots (Behar) @ 2.14
7 94% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.15
8 94.2% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.8% Armenians (Behar) @ 2.15
9 94.1% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.9% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 2.17
10 93.6% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6.4% Nogais (Yunusbayev) @ 2.17
11 94.1% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.9% Greek (Dodecad) @ 2.17
12 93.6% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6.4% Kumyks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.19
13 94% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.2
14 94.2% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.8% Balkars (Yunusbayev) @ 2.22
15 94.1% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.9% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 2.22
16 94.1% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.9% Adygei (HGDP) @ 2.24
17 94.2% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.8% North_Ossetians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.25
18 94.1% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.9% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 2.26
19 83.2% Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) + 16.8% Kurumba (Metspalu) @ 2.27
20 94.2% GIH30 (Dodecad) + 5.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.27
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.14
2 Atlantic_Med 24.23
3 Southwest_Asian 16.62
4 North_European 11.74
5 Northwest_African 5.52
6 Gedrosia 4.5
7 East_African 1.43
8 East_Asian 1.38
9 South_Asian 1.15
10 Sub_Saharan 0.31
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.31
2 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 7.02
3 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 7.44
4 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.97
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.99
6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 8.53
7 Greek (Dodecad) 12.34
8 C_Italian (Dodecad) 13.91
9 O_Italian (Dodecad) 16.47
10 Cypriots (Behar) 16.74
11 Tuscan (HGDP) 17.81
12 Lebanese (Behar) 17.96
13 TSI30 (Metspalu) 18.73
14 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.8
15 Syrians (Behar) 20.18
16 Jordanians (Behar) 20.77
17 Turks (Behar) 21.91
18 Palestinian (HGDP) 21.98
19 Druze (HGDP) 22.18
20 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 23.97
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 3.22
2 90.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.2% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 3.24
3 89.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.4% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.4
4 61.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 38.3% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 3.49
5 91% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.49
6 90.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9.4% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.5
7 89.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.8% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.56
8 89.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.59
9 89.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.62
10 89.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 3.62
11 89.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.9% Polish (Dodecad) @ 3.63
12 88.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 11.3% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.64
13 75.6% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 24.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.76
14 60.4% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 39.6% Jordanians (Behar) @ 3.78
15 82% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18% Yemenese (Behar) @ 3.84
16 76.8% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 23.2% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.88
17 87% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 13% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.88
18 88.1% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 11.9% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.9
19 57.5% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 42.5% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 3.97
20 81.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.1% Bedouin (HGDP) @ 3.98
# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 24.84
2 Gedrosia 19.72
3 Caucasus 17.53
4 Atlantic_Med 14.07
5 North_European 9.62
6 Southwest_Asian 9.46
7 Siberian 2.63
8 Sub_Saharan 0.74
9 Northwest_African 0.73
10 East_African 0.66
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Bnei_Menashe_Jews (Behar) 17.66
2 Turkmens (Yunusbayev) 25.86
3 Tajiks (Yunusbayev) 26.8
4 Pathan (HGDP) 27.13
5 Cochin_Jews (Behar) 28.28
6 Burusho (HGDP) 29.2
7 Iranians (Behar) 29.77
8 Jatt (Dodecad) 30.13
9 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh (Metspalu) 30.93
10 Iranian (Dodecad) 31.14
11 Kurd (Dodecad) 32.91
12 Sindhi (HGDP) 33.89
13 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 33.92
14 Kshatriya (Metspalu) 34.06
15 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) 34.7
16 Turks (Behar) 34.77
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 34.88
18 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 35
19 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 35.09
20 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 35.35
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.4% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 48.6% Iyengar (Dodecad) @ 4.08
2 52% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 48% Iyengar (Dodecad) @ 4.3
3 50.5% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 49.5% Iyer (Dodecad) @ 4.31
4 56.8% Cochin_Jews (Behar) + 43.2% Greek (Dodecad) @ 4.43
5 51.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 48.5% Iyengar (Dodecad) @ 4.47
6 51.8% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 48.2% Iyengar (Dodecad) @ 4.52
7 51.3% Kshatriya (Metspalu) + 48.7% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 4.52
8 50.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 49.1% Iyer (Dodecad) @ 4.62
9 50.9% Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) + 49.1% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 4.65
10 53.5% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh (Metspalu) + 46.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 4.77
11 51% Kshatriya (Metspalu) + 49% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 4.82
12 50.1% Indian (Dodecad) + 49.9% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 4.85
13 50.8% Kshatriya (Metspalu) + 49.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 4.86
14 51% Kshatriya (Metspalu) + 49% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 5.01
15 51.3% Kshatriya (Metspalu) + 48.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 5.05
16 53.2% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh (Metspalu) + 46.8% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.06
17 50.5% Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) + 49.5% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 5.09
18 73.4% Bnei_Menashe_Jews (Behar) + 26.6% French (HGDP) @ 5.1
19 53.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 46.5% INS30 (SGVP) @ 5.11
20 50.3% Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) + 49.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 5.17
Yezidis actually don't use the word Mitha, but Shems. Also, the Yezidism is much more related to the Mitanni, than to the much later Parthians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
@Eline, leave this thread you banned sock puppet. Or we'll have to report you again. Actually you should have been banned long ago.
In this Video Kreyenbroek perfectly explains the Mythos of Mithra and the parallels to Yezidi myths. it's German though
-Some notes. Mithra is born from Stone and that Stone is from a cave = reason why Mithra and Yezidi Shrines are underground Cave like.
-In the cave he kills a bull and the sun rises
-Mithra is the lord of the Sun, Fire , Water and Energie = you find a water source, Fire in every corner and the sun symbol throughout Lalish and especially in the Shrine.
Mithra is often depicted with a Snake around him = Snake on the doors of Lalish. It represents the cosmos and Mithra as the center of it (sun).
at 41:51 you see a Mithra shrine with a Mithra statue positioned almost at the end and than you see the Lalish shrine/cave which has a place at the end and it seems like a statue was positioned there previously but ruined by Christians.
He gives much much more connections for me to list them here. If anyone knows how to speak German he should watch it.
He also points out that the West Iranics had a archaic religion based around Sun worshipping with elements from Mesopotamia. This archaic religion included allot of deities, such as Mithra as possible the highest deity, Verethragna, Ahuramazda and even more. And than Zoroastrianism evolved with Ahura Mazda literally taking the position of the highest deity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wn623TlM98
Did you read what I wrote? Mithra was also one of the highest deities of the Mitanni did you know that? Kreyenbroek points all this out. That on the Western part of the Iranian Plateau all the way into Anatolia and the Levant there was a older Indo_iranic religion that was literally replaced by Zoroastrianism in allot of places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eline
The last similarity I will point out here.
In Mithraism there are seven grades of Initiation
https://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Relig...sm/m_m/pt8.htm
The Parthians were ruled by their seven great houses. It was always exactly seven tribes that "created"/ruled because it has an important religious meaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_...Houses_of_Iran
The Yarsan have the seven bodies of creation. Also the point with the pearl must sound very familiar to Yezidis
And as a Yezidi someone should know the importance of the number sevenQuote:
Belief in a divinity called Ya, the Divine Essence, creator of the world. In the beginning, the world was covered with water. At the bottom of this water was a pearl, at the heart of which was the Divine Essence in a state of “pre-eternity”. It first gave rise to its seven companions, the haftan (seven bodies).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidism#Seven_AngelsQuote:
Seven Angels
The seven Angels are the emanations of God, which are said to have been created by God from his own light (Nûr). In this context they have, so to speak, a part of God in themselves. Another word that is used for this is Sur or Sirr (literally: mystery), which denotes a divine essence that the Angels were created from.[21] This pure divine essence called Sur or Sirr has its own personality and will and is also called Sura Xudê (the Sur of God).[22] This term refers to the essence of the Divine itself, that is, God. The Angels share this "essence" from their creator who is God. The seven Angels are sometimes referred to as the "Seven Mysteries".
Creation myth
According to the Yazidi cosmogony, God created the world from a pearl (Dur), that was previously in a stage before the creation named Enzel (the eternity before creation).[25][26]
As I wrote in my previous posts Zoroastrianism actually adopted allot and the seven divine entities was one of them.
I just now watched the video. And it is not really good. I am not aware of any Achaeamenid sample. The guy is presenting some medievil Iranian sample as Achaeamenid. And the worst part is he is trying to explain the ancestry of Achaeamenids with recent proxy such as BedouinB. It's not like Achaeamenids had real Bedouin ancestry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babak
Also his explanation of the results are very bad. Some sample picking Hurrian over Achaeamenid doesn't mean they are of Hurrian origin. It simply means the target population prefers a population that resembles the Hurrians more than Achaeamenids. That could be very much Medes for all we know.
In fact how could you make a Hurrian vs Achaeamenid comparison to begin with. Both from very different timeframes. Hurrians from a Bronze Age vs Achaeamenids from the Iron Age doesn't work.
Hurrian related populations played a role in the building of the Achaeamenids. As he correctly pointed out the very big genetic correlation.
The video spreds too much missinformations for my taste. It will make some people believe, that some Iranics are descend of Hurrians while other descend from Achaeamenids. While in reality all have varying amounts of Hurrian related ancestry even if they are descend from Achaemenids, because Hurrians are so old that they qualify as source population for the Achaeamenids themselves.
https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...007&size=largeQuote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
Totally agree. I wouldn't call him an idiot. Clearly he's not a scientist if he's relying exclusively on G25. I would just call him a misinformed amateur who doesn't understand the issues with Davidski's G25.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
The Hurrian he's referring to I think is Haji-Firuz-IA ! and the the Archemenid I believe is Hasanlu-IA. Clearly the G25 is giving totally off results. Davidski's G25 is a mish mosh of modern and ancient samples. Obviously the moderns he has in the run to generate coordinates are having all sorts of effects on the test samples.
Anyways if he was a scientist he would use qpAdm and if he had he would have seen the following for Haji-Firuz-IA (courtesy EurasianDNA)
numthreads: 8
## qpAdm version: 634
seed: 1295334595
left pops:
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz
Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG
right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Onge_1000G
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Chinese_Han_1000G
Karitiana.DG
Anatolia_N
0 Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 1
1 Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 4
2 Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 2
3 Mbuti.DG 4
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 Onge_1000G 6
6 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
7 Chinese_Han_1000G 211
8 Karitiana.DG 3
9 Anatolia_N 29
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 709309 indivs: 262
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
## ncols: 709309
coverage: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 292807
coverage: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 624648
coverage: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 474638
coverage: Mbuti.DG 690580
coverage: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 654138
coverage: Onge_1000G 704593
coverage: Russia_MA1_HG.SG 493659
coverage: Chinese_Han_1000G 709306
coverage: Karitiana.DG 690550
coverage: Anatolia_N 709269
dof (jackknife): 639.251
numsnps used: 155390
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 5 chisq: 2.444 tail: 0.784873416 dofdiff: 7 chisqdiff: -2.444 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.201
Onge_1000G 0.337
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.217
Chinese_Han_1000G 0.919
Karitiana.DG 1.512
Anatolia_N -1.111
A:
scale 723.320
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.613
Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 1.274
full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 5 chisqdiff: 2.444 taildiff: 0.784873416
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.200 0.200
Onge_1000G 0.330 0.790
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.203 -0.685
Chinese_Han_1000G 0.901 1.264
Karitiana.DG 1.520 -0.226
Anatolia_N -1.132 1.794
A:
scale 746.734 3511.876
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.755 -1.065
Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 1.196 -0.931
best coefficients: 0.675 0.325
Jackknife mean: 0.675276889 0.324723111
std. errors: 0.069 0.069
error covariance (* 1000000)
4774 -4774
-4774 4774
summ: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 2 0.784873 0.675 0.325 4774 -4774 4774
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 5 2.444 0.784873 0.675 0.325
01 1 6 22.856 0.000846255 1.000 0.000
10 1 6 69.650 4.82473e-13 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.784873 - -
best pat: 01 0.000846255 chi(nested): 20.412 p-value for nested model: 6.24515e-06
coeffs: 0.675 0.325
## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000306 -0.488565
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000229 0.320063
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000132 Z: -0.221248
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Onge_1000G -0.000616 -1.068608
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Onge_1000G 0.000281 0.433744
dscore: Onge_1000G f4: -0.000325 Z: -0.594148
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001029 -1.356903
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.002090 2.335904
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000015 Z: -0.020790
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Chinese_Han_1000G -0.001319 -2.756043
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Chinese_Han_1000G 0.001087 1.983415
dscore: Chinese_Han_1000G f4: -0.000538 Z: -1.181505
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Karitiana.DG -0.001515 -2.368054
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Karitiana.DG 0.002453 3.290047
dscore: Karitiana.DG f4: -0.000225 Z: -0.364006
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Anatolia_N 0.000570 1.157302
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Anatolia_N -0.002317 -4.105960
dscore: Anatolia_N f4: -0.000368 Z: -0.780912
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.221
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Onge_1000G -0.594
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.021
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Chinese_Han_1000G -1.182
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Karitiana.DG -0.364
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Anatolia_N -0.781
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Onge_1000G -0.326
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.154
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Chinese_Han_1000G -0.792
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Karitiana.DG -0.147
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Anatolia_N -0.431
gendstat: Onge_1000G Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.409
gendstat: Onge_1000G Chinese_Han_1000G -0.514
gendstat: Onge_1000G Karitiana.DG 0.180
gendstat: Onge_1000G Anatolia_N -0.087
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Chinese_Han_1000G -0.785
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Karitiana.DG -0.294
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Anatolia_N -0.507
gendstat: Chinese_Han_1000G Karitiana.DG 0.748
gendstat: Chinese_Han_1000G Anatolia_N 0.421
gendstat: Karitiana.DG Anatolia_N -0.266
## end of run
So what the G25 shows is irrelevant. Haji-Firuz-IA is actually 67.5% Iran-Chl + 32.5% Central Asian Sarmatian related with a p-value of 0.78 (excellent p-value, model passing p-values used in scientific papers is 0.05)
So Iranians are more steppe than anticipated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
Indeed if we use the Chalcolithic as a point of reference. Don't pay too much attention to informal methods such as G25 or Gedmatch calculators. They were not designed to measure how steppe Iranians are shifted compared to the Iran-Chl. Also Iranians are more E. Asian shifted compared to the Chalcolithic than what most people are led to believe. There has been lots of influx at various timescales since the Chalcolithic into the Iranian plateau from the north.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babak
This said Afghans and to a smaller extent some N. Pakistanis and Indians are obviously more steppe and E. Eurasian shifted than the average Iranian.
From which study is this sample and the PCA? If it is a real Achaemenid sample that's fantasting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babak
But my point still stands. Some Iranic individuals picking Hurrian over Achaemenid simply means. these individuals might be a little more Hurrian shifted (as I would expect from Medes for example) and since you don't have a Median source population it picks up Hurrian as the next best. As we know Achaeamenids themselves were actually a Medo_Persian Dynasty some other samples might turn out different.
I will try to explain this visually
Look at this painting. Hope it explains what I mean.
https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/...1587350492.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
I got it from anthrgenica https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...n.1008385.g007
But yea, i agree with your point. Haji firuz is a better fit tbh
Thank you it seems like we finally have a real Achaemenid sample. The sample is perfect. But as you might understand it's only one sample. With more samples a little variation will come in. If we get our hands on samples from Medes and the Old Persians from the Achaemenid Dynasty, we will see what I mean. We can't base our decisions solely on one sample. As you might have noticed even the ancient Bronze Age Hurrians overlap with the Achaemenid sample as much as around 90%. And Hurrian is a bad example for comparison since it predates Achaemenids and is rather a source than competing population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babak
We need more Achaemenid and Median samples.
It is not an Achaemenid sample, but a sample from outside West Asian from the Achamenid era. It has nothing to do with the Iranians. It has only something to do with the AGE of the sample.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
It is from this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/
According to this study, ancient proto-Aryan (West Iranian), so called ancient Central Iranian Cluster (CIC) that connects all Iranic people together is just native to Kurdistan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eline
Quote:
The majority of Iran’s ethnic groups comprise largely overlapping genetic autosomal diversity, implicating a shared and largely autochthonous ancestry, designated as the Central Iranian Cluster (CIC). Notably, the CIC also includes Iranian Arabs and Azeris (Fig 1) as well as the religious group of Zoroastrians (Fig 3), being consistent with the suggestion that Zoroastrians have lived in the area of present-day Iran for millennia and had formed an early group of Indo-European speakers.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/
Kurds are much more homogenous (pure) than Persians. Kurds are clustered closely with other Western Iranians such as Gilaks, Mazanderanis and Lurs, while only one part of the Persians overlaps with the Kurds, while other part of the Persians is more shifted toward the Turkmen. Persians are much more diverse and a little bit more shifted toward the Turkmen (Turkic speaking people).
Wait a minute now is it a real Achaemenid sample or not? From where and which timeframe is this Hasanlu Iron Age sample exactly. Haji Firuz might be genetically very close to Medes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
I don't call him an idiot he is just not well informed and doesn't know the flaws and how these calculators work. If I had no other proxy samples than a Chimp and East Asian. The calculator would obviously pick up East Asian for me, because it's the next closest thing that is there.
I think people here are confused and speak about the different samples and topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
There is no Achaemenid sample at the PCA you have seen. That PCA is from a recent study about the Iranian people: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/
Hasanlu-IA is a 2750 year old sample from Hasanlu Iran in Zagros. So about 250 years before Archemenids It's R1b1a1a2a2Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
Seems so but the thing people need to understand and always remember. Inside this ~30% Steppe hides around 15-20% Iranian_Plateau Neolithic, Neolithic Caucasus related DNA. It was a bi directional geneflow. Those dudes who came from the Steppe (especially the later Iranic branches) were at least 50% of Iranian Plateau-Caucasus ancestry if not even more. That is why we barely show outside admixture, because allot of it is literally back migration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babak
Haji-Firuz-IA is from Haji Firuz Iran and is 2900 years old. Y:R1b1a1a2a2 Mt: K1a17a
So it might actually be a Mede, timeframe fits. But it's slightly before the foundation of the Median EmpireQuote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
These guys were either already Medes or Hurrians-Manneaens/Gutians/Kassites who were about to become the Medes. Either way they possible represent well what the early Median speakers genetically looked like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
Still would be good to have samples from the actual period of the Median Empire and the Achaemenid Dynasty.
Yezidi Kurds from Iraq have much more R1b than R1a. Non-Yezidi Kurds have more R1aQuote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
Yezidi Kurds have also a lot Maykop/Kura-Araxes Y-DNA hg. 'L'.
I think that R1b is connected to the ancient proto-West Iranian Gutians who were ancestral to the Mitanni, Medes.
https://i.postimg.cc/vmVyLPXg/Ezdi-Kurds.png
The Medes were literally a confederation of Iranic and non Iranic tribes who spoke the Median language. Cyrus literally called all of West Media Gutium (land of the Gutis).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eline
The Persian were literally a synthesis of Iranic and non Iranic tribes such as the Elamites and Kassites which formed the Persians.
The very Medes and Persian existence is down to these synthesis of Iranic and non Iranic speakers. We should never forget that.
Before these Iranic tribes mixed with the other locals they literally called themselves just "Aryans".
Very good point and that's one thing that confounds ADMIXTURE or G25 results because they don't use outgroups to zero out common shared ancestry. A big example is Europeans are shown closer to Sarmatians or Scythians in ADMIXTURE or G25 not because they had alot of admixture from those groups but because steppe groups and Europeans share alot of ancient EHG admixture whereas the basal Eurasian in W. Asians puts them further away from Steppe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
qpAdm on the other hand DOES use OUTGROUPS and much less vulnerable to this issue. Here's Harji-Firuz-IA using the following ancient OUTGROUPs to zero out ancient shared alleles between Haji-Firuz-IA and C. Asian Sarmatian
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Onge_1000G
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Chinese_Han_1000G
Karitiana.DG
Anatolia_N
Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic
Georgia_Kotias.SG
numthreads: 8
## qpAdm version: 634
seed: 1215982657
left pops:
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz
Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG
right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Onge_1000G
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Chinese_Han_1000G
Karitiana.DG
Anatolia_N
Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic
Georgia_Kotias.SG
0 Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 1
1 Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 4
2 Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 2
3 Mbuti.DG 4
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 Onge_1000G 6
6 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
7 Chinese_Han_1000G 211
8 Karitiana.DG 3
9 Anatolia_N 29
10 Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 10
11 Georgia_Kotias.SG 1
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 709309 indivs: 273
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
## ncols: 709309
coverage: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 292807
coverage: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 624648
coverage: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 474638
coverage: Mbuti.DG 690580
coverage: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 654138
coverage: Onge_1000G 704593
coverage: Russia_MA1_HG.SG 493659
coverage: Chinese_Han_1000G 709306
coverage: Karitiana.DG 690550
coverage: Anatolia_N 709269
coverage: Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 709182
coverage: Georgia_Kotias.SG 708661
dof (jackknife): 639.275
numsnps used: 154924
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 7 chisq: 7.220 tail: 0.406371316 dofdiff: 9 chisqdiff: -7.220 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.182
Onge_1000G 0.323
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.249
Chinese_Han_1000G 0.915
Karitiana.DG 1.548
Anatolia_N -1.191
Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 1.269
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.207
A:
scale 734.456
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.547
Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 1.304
full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 7 chisqdiff: 7.220 taildiff: 0.406371316
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.199 0.121
Onge_1000G 0.324 0.590
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.234 -0.251
Chinese_Han_1000G 0.892 1.134
Karitiana.DG 1.545 0.215
Anatolia_N -1.181 0.885
Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 1.298 -0.464
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.262 2.290
A:
scale 748.617 2653.477
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.655 -1.132
Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG 1.254 -0.848
best coefficients: 0.704 0.296
Jackknife mean: 0.704624134 0.295375866
std. errors: 0.068 0.068
error covariance (* 1000000)
4689 -4689
-4689 4689
summ: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 2 0.406371 0.705 0.295 4689 -4689 4689
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 7 7.220 0.406371 0.704 0.296
01 1 8 24.876 0.00163144 1.000 0.000
10 1 8 83.531 9.49035e-15 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.406371 - -
best pat: 01 0.00163144 chi(nested): 17.657 p-value for nested model: 2.64607e-05
coeffs: 0.704 0.296
## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000301 -0.479523
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000231 0.321952
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000144 Z: -0.240060
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Onge_1000G -0.000612 -1.057869
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Onge_1000G 0.000288 0.443516
dscore: Onge_1000G f4: -0.000346 Z: -0.630565
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001029 -1.354396
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.002093 2.330573
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000106 Z: -0.145244
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Chinese_Han_1000G -0.001320 -2.749701
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Chinese_Han_1000G 0.001089 1.979980
dscore: Chinese_Han_1000G f4: -0.000608 Z: -1.332328
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Karitiana.DG -0.001525 -2.377830
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Karitiana.DG 0.002446 3.271362
dscore: Karitiana.DG f4: -0.000352 Z: -0.566976
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Anatolia_N 0.000583 1.180980
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Anatolia_N -0.002324 -4.105589
dscore: Anatolia_N f4: -0.000276 Z: -0.583845
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic -0.001013 -1.939311
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 0.002256 3.544665
dscore: Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic f4: -0.000047 Z: -0.092013
details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000884 -1.152117
details: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001299 -1.522396
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.001006 Z: -1.382609
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.240
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Onge_1000G -0.631
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.145
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Chinese_Han_1000G -1.332
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Karitiana.DG -0.567
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Anatolia_N -0.584
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic -0.092
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.383
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Onge_1000G -0.341
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.049
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Chinese_Han_1000G -0.902
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Karitiana.DG -0.327
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Anatolia_N -0.240
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 0.172
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.110
gendstat: Onge_1000G Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.315
gendstat: Onge_1000G Chinese_Han_1000G -0.630
gendstat: Onge_1000G Karitiana.DG -0.010
gendstat: Onge_1000G Anatolia_N 0.139
gendstat: Onge_1000G Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 0.629
gendstat: Onge_1000G Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.898
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Chinese_Han_1000G -0.751
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Karitiana.DG -0.342
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Anatolia_N -0.243
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 0.085
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.002
gendstat: Chinese_Han_1000G Karitiana.DG 0.614
gendstat: Chinese_Han_1000G Anatolia_N 0.822
gendstat: Chinese_Han_1000G Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 2.061
gendstat: Chinese_Han_1000G Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.579
gendstat: Karitiana.DG Anatolia_N 0.140
gendstat: Karitiana.DG Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 0.651
gendstat: Karitiana.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.844
gendstat: Anatolia_N Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic 0.488
gendstat: Anatolia_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.092
gendstat: Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.309
## end of run
So even using all those OUTGROUPS to zero out ancient shared alleles between Haji-Firuz and C. Asian Sarmatian we still get
70.4% +/-7% + 29.6% +/-7% C. Asian Sarmatian related with a p-value of 0.40 (passing is 0.05)