Since it's 900-1000 AD, maybe Magyars? Poland has 10% N1c from somewhere. Probably more Magyar admixture than Hungary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
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Since it's 900-1000 AD, maybe Magyars? Poland has 10% N1c from somewhere. Probably more Magyar admixture than Hungary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
Not Magyars, that's the stupidest thing I heard heheQuote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
Niemsza look like some Baltic tribe, Yotvingians or something.
Generally those results are of course from smaller number of snps. And in such case minor regional components are usually lacking. But those which stayed show obvious trends in specific genomes. If somebody was mostly NW-Euro he has elevated to enormous level North Sea frequency for example, but I'm sure with bigger number of snps he would be still NW-Euro but more averaged.
I agree that Niemcza looks Baltic influneces from some reason.
:picard2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cniva
1. If father was a Goth, how on earth he wasn't?! :picard1:
2. How could he be a Bulgarian, if father was a Goth? :picard1:
3. More than that - how could he be a Bulgarian, if Bułgarians didn't yet arrived there? :picard1:
And becasue of this, every Pole is buying a Lord or couple of Lords every day... :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cniva
And Russkies, becasue they call by chleb mainly a corn/grain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
:picard2:Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
In majority of researches was 0.5-1.5% (usually around 1%).
Lastly Leftpedia changed on 4%... thats all.
lol, look closer to their (Polish) phenotypes, wild small eyes etc., Poland has Ugro-Finnic people, 4% is +/- good numberQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
Acually we had some hungarian settlement, especially in southern Poland, but also farther,Quote:
Originally Posted by Cniva
sometimes leaving behind place's names containgng ther ethnonim, but not always, BUT 1.
impact of general population was very low, becasue the settlement was very few in number
comparing to general population 2. 99.53% of so called Hungarians is not original, i.e. has
different than N hg, 3. majority of polish N is living rather on the north than on the south,
so lofgically, they came rather from people colse to Esthonians and Livs, than Magyars.
According to FT DNA it has 4.45, but it is not representative, and containing mostly pre-IIWW population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianluigi
Lebusland has from example 100% of R1 and only 8 specimens :p
So, real % of N is probably lower I guess.
Jak ci?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gianluigi
https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/k/r/1/c9/87...jpg?1441279085
Polish N-hat, called Magierka (i.e. Magyar hat).
Different types depending on original N subethnic root :p
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%2C_Krakau.JPG
http://www.hobby-welna.pl/media/prod...?lm=1473933465
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NCP3ei26Hs...2Bmagierka.png
http://www.hobby-welna.pl/media/prod...?lm=1467345622
http://etnomuzeum.eu/file/obiekty/139pb_322.jpg
http://www.hobby-welna.pl/media/prod...?lm=1466791463
http://www.hobby-welna.pl/media/prod...?lm=1466738278
Ok, I changed a little my opinion on that matter, when I did see it by my own eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
It seems, that Hungraian settlement could have an impact in southern Poland anyway.
Interesting, that southern provinces had more Hungolians each one than Hungolia itself :laugh:
Beneath, distribution of Ugrofinians 1) by % of population 2) by number of bearers of
N in thousands, 3) by % of N in a province to whole Ugrofinian population in Poland.
Attachment 65543
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...3&d=1499084416
Most of Polish N1c are branches typical for East Balts and West Balts. The most common branches of N1c in Poland are "Latvian" Z16975, "West Baltic" (Prussian-Yotvingian) Z16981, and N1c-NY5580 (I'm not sure what exactly it is - I suppose that it is one of typically Lithuanian branches):Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...661#post247661
Polish N1c branches:
http://i.imgur.com/ZSkWSHk.png
Here are my own names of Baltic N1c sub-branches, based on frequencies in populations (Z16975 was the most common branch of N1c in pre-1945 East Prussia, based on FTDNA Projects):
http://i.imgur.com/liyBy1Y.png
http://i.imgur.com/hiLQBnf.jpg
East Prussian R1a subclades (from FTDNA Projects):
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post175421
East Prussian N1c-Z16975 (from FTDNA Projects):
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post176774
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry)
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek)
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork)
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slawjanskoje)
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis)
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny)
Interestingly there is also one guy with N1b-L732:
kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny)
Here a map with locations of 2 other N1b carriers:
http://semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/171/
Some of them (especially Kow_45) could also be descended from local population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
GAC culture in Poland was a mix of EEF with WHG (no Steppe) and their Y-DNA was I2:
Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo I2440 I2
Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo I2403 I2a2
Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo I2405 I2a2
Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo I2441 I2a2a1b
Globular Amphora Ukraine Ilyatka ILK001 I2a2a1b
Globular Amphora Ukraine Ilyatka ILK002 I2a2a1b2
And individual Kow_45 from Wielbark culture also belonged to I2-L801 haplogroup.
But these are two extremes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
Interesting, what was in the center.
Maybe something different - and replaced
population lived on the outskirts?
Uh, that sample is a closest match to Finno-Ugrics in NW Russia, not Balts, likely meaning it had Mongoloid admixture. Balts(Lithuanians, Latvians) don't have Mongoloid admixture. Niemcza is also in southern Poland, if it was a group like Curonians(who are said to be Estonians rather than Latvians), how did they get so far south? Balts didn't exactly conquer a lot unlike Slavs or Germanics during that period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cniva
More likely Magyars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian
You're not entirely correct, this dendogramm is based on Eurogenes K36, in which Niemcza gets high Fennoscandian, due to which it clusters with North-Russians.
While Fennoscandian is almost pure Finnish component North Euros without any mongoloid admix get it in high amounts like Dutch, North-Germans, Danes get 10%+.
Also should be noted that this are very early results distanses to closest populations are 30+ and result are very wild, they do barely deffirinate in terms of big races, hardly any usefull for regional sub-divisions.
Tl;DR - result are shit right now, we should wait for better read genomes.
K36 "Fennoscandian" component is also present among Balts:
http://k36.physical-anthropology.inf...rogenesk36.jpg
http://k36.physical-anthropology.inf...rogenesk36.jpg
Yes, Fennosciandian isn't Mongoloid at all. In K36 Siberian is North Mongoloid and Niemcza didn't have any.
Sample Niemcza_13 from Early Medieval Poland belongs to I2a-Din:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post255823
So far none of Iron Age Polish samples belongs to I2a-Din or R1a.
This is now one of the oldest I2a-Din samples in ancient DNA, right?:
Niemcza_13 (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621+, mtDNA J1c3e1
Location of Niemcza (to the west of Krosno):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza
http://chrzest966.pl/wp-content/uplo...Kocka-ryc1.bmp
niem18 J-Z6055: Z27899/Y7016+ or J-SK1323: FGC58046- FGC58078+ (low probability)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172
It is J2a > m410 > L26 > z6064 > z6055
or J2a > m410 > L26 > PF5087 > PF5160 > PF5197 > SK1323
M410 is Georgia, Ossetia subclade. So considering Osetia another Sarmatian trace.
Niemcza_18, 900-1000 AD, Y-DNA: J2a1a-L26+ (exact subclade under L26 uncertain).
It has rather nothing to do with modern Georgia.
This SNP - L26 - links Early Medieval Pole Niemcza_18 with Bronze Age Hungarian BR2:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/
http://i.imgur.com/T5OZYzB.png
Both Niemcza_18 and BR2 were J2a1, M410+ and L26+.
================
And autosomal similarity of BR2 to modern populations:
http://s10.postimg.org/dyq6cc0nt/BR2.png
Now it's official guys...
https://www.academia.edu/33791135/20..._DNA_libraries
So out of 16:Quote:
Here, we present the analysis of Y-chromosome obtained from seventeen, not yet reported, ancient male samples excavated from different burial sites in Poland: Kowalewko (Roman Iron Age), Maslomecz (Roman Iron Age), Legowo (early Middle Ages) and Niemcza (early Middle Ages).
We successfully assigned haplogroups to sixteen individuals. Eight belonged to haplogroup I1 (I-M253). Three of them belonged to the sub-branch I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237) and one to I1a2a (I-Z59). I1 is the most common haplogroup in present day Scandinavia, and it is found in all places invaded by ancient Germanic tribes and Vikings. Four samples belonged to haplogroup G2a (G-P15) which is spread uniformly throughout Europe. Other individuals were assigned to I2a2 (I-M436), R1a (R-M420), R1bl (R-L278), E1b1 (E-P2). The next portion of samples is under investigation. With this study we hope to shed new light into the genetic structure of populations inhabiting lands of contemporary Poland during the Roman Iron Age and the Middle Ages.
8 I1 (I-M253)
- 3 I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237)
- 1 I1a2a (I-Z59)
- 4 just I-M253
4 G2a (G-P15)
1 I2a2 (I-m436)
1 R1a M420
1 R1b1 (R-L278)
1 E1b1 (E-P2)
How we can divide them between those few places? Any opinions? If one R1a m420 was from Wielbark or rather early Polish medieval?
LOL, as much as 50% (!) of I1-M253.
Compare with 12 samples from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) dated to 300-400s AD:
I1 --------------------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ------ 1 (~8%)
R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ------------ 1 (~8%)
R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) --------- 2 (~17%)
Source (see Table 3. on page 6 out of 7):
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...wanderungszeit
Location of Görzig:
http://www.postleitzahl.org/sachsen_...%C3%B6rzig.png
This is fucking shit. Is there any chance to some ''find'' deeper clades?Quote:
Originally Posted by mlukas
Subclade I-L1237 on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1237/Quote:
Three of them belonged to the sub-branch I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237)
The basal lineage of this subclade, I-L1237*, can be found here:
http://i.imgur.com/bncBRqP.png
So Jordanes was right - the Goths had originated from Sweden?
As I said before: these places are not representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by mlukas
Some OE pipidówki or servant settlements, or just a
place were lived one or two rods, nothing special.
Goths - 0% IE 100 % Old Europe. :laugh:
But Wojewoda from ABF is ancestral to these Goths (he is I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-):
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1304224
Maybe L1237 originated in Poland, south of the Baltic Sea, from Wojewoda's branch.
Wojewoda is an ethnic Polish user.
Yes, even their name indicates it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland
''Gutasaga contains legends of how the island was settled by Şieluar and populated by his descendants. It also tells that a third of the population had to emigrate and settle in southern Europe, a tradition associated with the migration of the Goths, whose name has the same origin as Gutes, the native name of the people of the island.''
Some historians are claiming, that Goths came to Scandia from Poland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
On the Island 50% is I, so nothing strange if they found only I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feiichy
Wojewoda doesn't know if he should call himself Gothorum Rex or Pater:Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
http://i.imgur.com/rIi1HHn.png
First Thraell.
You need to have a duel with him, to solve this dispute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
According to Boziewicz's Codex thraells haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
no honorary ability, so the duell is impossible. :p
Nope. He is just simply nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
Michał from anthrogenica
Quote:
Whatever is his subclade under S2078 (do you know his specific subclade downstream of S2078?), you cannot say that his subclade is "older and ancestral" to those from the paper. These are simply two parallel subclades descending from a common S2078+ ancestor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote:
To be classified as S2078* one would need to be tested for all known SNPs/subclades directly under S2078, and he probably hasn't been tested for any SNPs downstream of S2078 other than L1237 (not even for S2077 or Y2245, mutations defining large clades downstream of S2078 but upstream of L1237). Even if he was indeed S2078*, this would not make his modern lineage ancestral to subclade L1237, and you need to keep in mind that the common ancestor of Wojewoda and those ancient L1237 people (ie. their most recent common paternal ancestor) was ancestral to all of them the same way. (In fact, that ancestor was more closely related to those ancient "Poles/Goths", but this is only because these are ancient samples).
If I was tested for just two mutations, let's say L1085 (from the A0-T level) and M343 (defining R1b), so my results would be L1085+ M343-, this would not make "my lineage" ancestral to all R1b people (including yourself).
Bear in mind, that author of this paper is Piontek. Until now greatest autochtonist in Poland.
So if he said:
It was probably hardest thing for him, which he said recently. So we can be 100% sure this particular I1 is Germanic. He knows better Tomenable. He is the author.Quote:
I1 is the most common haplogroup in present day Scandinavia, and it is found in all places invaded by ancient Germanic tribes and Vikings."
I1-M253 frequencies in some populations:
Kashubians -------- 13,06% (35/268)
Greater Poles ----- 10,45% (21/201)
Lusatian Sorbs ---- 9,76% (12/123)
Kociewie ----------- 8,23% (13/158)
Kurpie ------------- 6,96% (11/158)
Upper Silesians --- 6,25% (3/48)
Lesser Poles ------- 5,66% (12/212)
Mazovian nobility - 5,48% (8/146)
Wrocław ----------- 4,04% (4/99)
But he can follow just the logic of many TAtards,Quote:
Originally Posted by mlukas
that if I1 has the biggest % in Scandia, then it
has to be of viking descendency.
It has not to be.
Poland has almost as big I1 population as Sweden, and much bigger
than Denmark and Norway - the same as they both together. Much
more I1 had France, Germany, Russia and England... Even a Holland,
ITALY!!! and UKRAINE!!! has bigger population of I1 than Denmark or
Norway. It has come from somewhere, and I do not belive, that it all
came from Scandinavia. Partialy, yes, but not all.
Do you believe he was so easy defeated? If he had any objections to Germanic ancestry of this subclade he would simply said it. It was his paper. He can. But nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley
He wasn't TurnoGerman. He was nearly TurboSlav. In his naive faith in ancestral Slavdom oin Poland.
I also added I1-M253 in one more population:Quote:
Originally Posted by Litvin
Mazovian nobility - 5,48% (8/146)
^^^
Based on FTDNA "Mazovian Nobility Project".
More Wielbark descendants among peasants (Kashubians, Greater Poles) than nobility (Mazovia has the highest percent of nobility-descendants of all Polish regions). Something that Figlerowicz already said in one of his interviews. Population structure by region in the 16th century (1500s):
Mazovia:
Peasantry - 62,4 percent
Townsmen - 14,1 percent
Priesthood - 0,1 percent
Nobility - 23,4 percent (yes - almost 1/4 of Mazovians were nobles)
Greater Poland:
Peasantry - 68,9 percent
Townsmen - 25,2 percent
Priesthood - 0,3 percent
Nobility - 5,6 percent
Royal Prussia:
Peasantry - 59,3 percent
Townsmen - 36,5 percent
Priesthood - 1,2 percent
Nobility - 3,0 percent
Let me remind you what lgmayka wrote:
These are Wielbark-descended peasants.Quote:
Originally Posted by lgmayka