Origin of E-V13

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09-02-2019, 09:53 AM
Bakha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

Former Russian (1/4 Tatar) member Norka is E-V13.
Bakha (half Uzbek/Iranian, half Russian) is also E-V13.
These guys have zero African ancestry. Don't you guys be ridiculous.

Exactly. But who told you that i am 1/4 persian? I am 1/4Tatar Kazan, 1/4Uzbek Karakalpak. But i agree that my EV-13 is from my Tatarlar ancestors.
09-02-2019, 03:55 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirdLookingFellow

Morley's Y-DNA predictor also put me as possibly E-V13 and my phenotype at least points to Tatar/Central Asian people. Before anyone jumps in I know very well that Y-DNA is not a phenotype predictor and that E-V13 is found in Greece as well.

The E-V13 in Tatars probably got their from the Cuman times. Those Cuman women got some Balcanic Tube Steak.

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09-02-2019, 04:01 PM
Leto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakha

Exactly. But who told you that i am 1/4 persian? I am 1/4Tatar Kazan, 1/4Uzbek Karakalpak. But i agree that my EV-13 is from my Tatarlar ancestors.

You are a funny guy who changes his ethnic background almost everyday. I think you don't know yourself.
09-09-2019, 09:53 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

Where did E-V13 originate ?
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...4&share_type=t

Maciamo is a writer for eupedia and one of the more well versed people on the history of E-V13.

(I will post second link later)

Not talking about the age of E-V13 mutation itself or the most recent common ancestor of modern E-V13 holders.

I am specifically interested in when E entered Europe and specifically E-M78 from which E-V13 descended from because it can’t be attributed to any recent migration from Western Asia or Africa.

Key take aways from Maciamos research.

E-M78 parent clade to E-V13 did not arrive with Neolithic farmers and it did not arrive from Western Asia/Anatolia. Low frequency among Neolithic farmers prove this as was posted. A long with common sense. E-M78 arrived from North African Hunter Gatherers and was present in Southern Europe along the Mediterranean coast, mainland Greece, Adriatic coast since the Mesolithic and possibly Paleolithic(parent E-M215).

The parent clade to E-V13 was found in the Iberomaurisian culture earlier than any Natufian examples. Iberomaursians differed somewhat from Natufians phenotypically and genetically although common dna was shared.

“Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*). “

It is this culture that brought haplogroup E to the levant not the other way around. Iberomaurusians predate Natufians and their Mashubian offspring mixed with local unknown levant hunter gathers(most likely of y-haplo CT) to form natufians.

North Africa was full of E-M78 Hunter gatherers until they were eventually replaced by the E-M81 cattle herders. Most of the E in Africa and West Asia today is WAYYYYYY YOUNGER than E-M78 and E-V13.
So how people can say it recently came into Europe descending from these younger subclades is total retardation.

As for its spread throughout Europe. E-V13 carriers were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans. Both R1a and R1b countries have an even share of E-V13 because it was found throughout Southern Europe stretching from Balkans to Portugal. So not only one Indo-European group assimilated them. Beyond that it’s spread can be attributed to Roman and Greek conquests.

Bump

Any inconsistencies with this theory?
10-25-2019, 10:23 AM
valentinavalley2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feiichy

Yup, G2a is original Anatolian farmer lineage, later they absorbed I2a hunter gatherers who switched to farming (Basque-Sardinian clade if I am not mistaken)

E-V13 and J2 are later entries into Europe.

Haplogroup J is over 20,000 years in Europe, so is G, as for E it might be older then claimed.

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10-25-2019, 05:57 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by valentinavalley2

Haplogroup J is over 20,000 years in Europe, so is G, as for E it might be older then claimed.

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J was not in Europe 20,000 years ago this is complete BS with no evidence it stayed around the Caucasus and Iran when I spit from J. The only IJ man ever tested was in Iran. It’s cousin Y haplo I is probably that old in Europe which is predated by C in Europe.

E-M78 was never found in the Levant only Africa and Europe. Which can only mean direct migration from Africa into Europe. There was contact between North Africa and Southern Europe. We know this to be the case because Iberomaurisans tested for European Cromagnid mtdna and their Y-DNA was E-M78 with one skeleton bearing the direct parent clade to E-V13. E-V13 can only come from these people.
10-25-2019, 08:08 PM
valentinavalley2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

J was not in Europe 20,000 years ago this is complete BS with no evidence it stayed around the Caucasus and Iran when I spit from J. The only IJ man ever tested was in Iran. It’s cousin Y haplo I is probably that old in Europe which is predated by C in Europe.

E-M78 was never found in the Levant only Africa and Europe. Which can only mean direct migration from Africa into Europe. There was contact between North Africa and Southern Europe. We know this to be the case because Iberomaurisans tested for European Cromagnid mtdna and their Y-DNA was E-M78 with one skeleton bearing the direct parent clade to E-V13. E-V13 can only come from these people.

I know there was a E-V13 found in Spain, in the Catalonia region dating back 7,000 years so in the Balkans it might be older then thought, it’s also found in the UK, from Roman times, but they claim it might be from Thracian or Illyrian soldiers.

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10-25-2019, 08:17 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by valentinavalley2

I know there was a E-V13 found in Spain, in the Catalonia region dating back 7,000 years so in the Balkans it might be older then thought, it’s also found in the UK, from Roman times, but they claim it might be from Thracian or Illyrian soldiers.

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It’s specified that it came from Romans? Can I see the links? Because E-V13 was assimilated by Indo-Europeans and spread through Europe and parts of Asia with the indo-Europeans.

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10-25-2019, 08:38 PM
valentinavalley2

Origin of E-V13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

It’s specified that it came from Romans? Can I see the links? Because E-V13 was assimilated by Indo-Europeans and spread through Europe and parts of Asia with the indo-Europeans.

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https://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255
https://dnaconsultants.com/right-pew-wrong-church/
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.r...kan_Origin/amp

To me personally I think that Haplogroup E as a whole is the original Sea people or Mediterranean Haplogroup. I doubt it is only 6,000 years old, it actually might be older then though, having said that I don’t take country dna distributions seriously as they are usually used for political gains.

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10-25-2019, 08:51 PM
MiloshN

lol, people are arguing about hg xD
10-25-2019, 09:06 PM
valentinavalley2

Origin of E-V13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiloshN

lol, people are arguing about hg xD

I don’t take these country distributions seriously as some countries use them for propaganda or political gains.
10-25-2019, 09:25 PM
MiloshN

Quote:

Originally Posted by valentinavalley2

I don’t take these country distributions seriously as some countries use them for propaganda or political gains.

hgs are only too small a part of us. What matters is what we are today. I am E-V13 but I look a bit like mutated slav but slav. I speak Slavian and write Slav.
10-25-2019, 09:29 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by valentinavalley2

https://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255
https://dnaconsultants.com/right-pew-wrong-church/
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.r...kan_Origin/amp

To me personally I think that Haplogroup E as a whole is the original Sea people or Mediterranean Haplogroup. I doubt it is only 6,000 years old, it actually might be older then though, having said that I don’t take country dna distributions seriously as they are usually used for political gains.

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Haplogroup E is old as fuck it’s 5th oldest haplo in the world and therefore it’s very diverse and the separation time between certain subclades can be a enormous, so it’s better to refer specifically to E-M78 to narrow down any significant information as far as Europeans are concerned. E-M78 itself is already estimated to be 28,000 years old. Going further beyond that in history things get murky and you need to be a legit historian/geneticist/anthropologist to not make mistakes because the margin of error is huge going back so far in history with the little evidence that we have right now.

All of European E-V13 have a most common ancestor that is 5,500 years old. But where he came from. Where his ancestors were. When E-M78 entered Europe nobody can answer at this point and if they say they can for sure they are larping because there is no evidence of it and the main theory of Neolithic farmers bringing it is debunked at this point.

As far as sea peoples are concerned I don’t think they were a homogeneous E-V13 people only.
10-25-2019, 09:30 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiloshN

hgs are only too small a part of us. What matters is what we are today. I am E-V13 but I look a bit like mutated slav but slav. I speak Slavian and write Slav.

It’s worth finding out the truth about the origin of a haplogroup though especially a controversial one such as E-V13
10-25-2019, 09:32 PM
MiloshN

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

It’s worth finding out the truth about the origin of a haplogroup though especially a controversial one such as E-V13

ya, that's nice to know. But the past cannot be changed, the future can.
10-25-2019, 09:33 PM
valentinavalley2

Origin of E-V13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

Haplogroup E is old as fuck it’s 5th oldest haplo in the world and therefore it’s very diverse and the separation time between certain subclades can be a enormous, so it’s better to refer specifically to E-M78 to narrow down any significant information as far as Europeans are concerned. E-M78 itself is already estimated to be 28,000 years old. Going further beyond that in history things get murky and you need to be a legit historian/geneticist/anthropologist to not make mistakes because the margin of error is huge going back so far in history with the little evidence that we have right now.

All of European E-V13 have a most common ancestor that is 5,500 years old. But where he came from. Where his ancestors were. When E-M78 entered Europe nobody can answer at this point and if they say they can for sure they are larping because there is no evidence of it and the main theory of Neolithic farmers bringing it is debunked at this point.

As far as sea peoples are concerned I don’t think they were a homogeneous E-V13 people only.

Haplogroup E cannot be 5,500 years old in Europe as a skeleton in Spain was found to be older then 7,000 years old. That same Haplogroup is said to be the same as 5 Albanians, and 2 Greeks I think that were tested.

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10-25-2019, 09:37 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by valentinavalley2

Haplogroup E cannot be 5,500 years old in Europe as a skeleton in Spain was found to be older then 7,000 years old.

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You didn’t understand what I said lol. I said modern European E-V13 all come from the same man who lived 5,500 years ago. We don’t know what culture this person belonged to. Where his ancestors came from. Or if he was a a direct descendant of the E-V13 found in Spain.All we know is that he lived 5,500 years ago and all modern E-V13 supposedly come from this man.
10-25-2019, 09:42 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by valentinavalley2

Haplogroup E cannot be 5,500 years old in Europe as a skeleton in Spain was found to be older then 7,000 years old. That same Haplogroup is said to be the same as 5 Albanians, and 2 Greeks I think that were tested.

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Really it was the same subclade of E-V13? Post links.
10-25-2019, 09:51 PM
valentinavalley2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

You didn’t understand what I said lol. I said modern European E-V13 all come from the same man who lived 5,500 years ago. We don’t know what culture this person belonged to. Where his ancestors came from. Or if he was a a direct descendant of the E-V13 found in Spain.All we know is that he lived 5,500 years ago and all modern E-V13 supposedly come from this man.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a6efe8d30d.jpg

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10-31-2019, 04:19 AM
Coastal Elite

Here is what 23andMe has to say about E-V13, for what it is worth.

Origin and Migrations of Haplogroup E-M78

Your paternal line stems from the common ancestor of haplogroup E-M78, a branch of E that dates back approximately 24,000 years. The earliest carriers of the E-M78 lineage likely lived in a population that moved from eastern Africa into northeastern Africa about 14,000 years ago, during the final days of the Ice Age. From northeastern Africa, their descendants expanded to the west between the Sahara and the Mediterranean coastline, and to the east out of Africa into the Middle East, where E-M78 men remain common.

Today, men bearing this haplogroup are also common in southern Europe, including in the Balkans, Iberia, and Italy. In Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania, between 15% and 30% of men bear haplogroup E-M78. Their ancestors were likely relatively late arrivals to the region. While some branches of haplogroup E were carried into Europe nearly 8,000 years ago, recent research suggests that the major spread of E-M78 occurred in the last 5,000 years or so during the Bronze Age. Bronze Age cultures learned to smelt tin and copper to create beautiful and complex bronze items like hardier tools and weapons. They journeyed along river waterways in the Balkans and spread into east-central Europe. Today, men from Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, and Slovakia all carry E-M78 at levels of nearly 10%.

While the majority of E-M78 European males trace their recent ancestry to Turkey and the Middle East, some men carrying E-M78 from Spain, Italy and Greece trace their ancestry directly from North African populations, probably within the last 4,000 years. The ancestors of these men must have sailed across the Mediterranean Sea and settled in communities along the European coast.

Your paternal haplogroup, E-V13, traces back to a man who lived approximately 11,000 years ago.
That's nearly 440.0 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your paternal line.

Your haplogroup migrated in large numbers from the Balkans into Europe about 4,500 years ago, triggered by the beginning of the Balkan Bronze Age. During this migration, members of your haplogroup mainly followed rivers connecting the southern Balkans to northern-central Europe. Technological leaps often cause lineages to grow dramatically in numbers and in geographic range. The development of Bronze technology may have given men in your lineage a competitive advantage over other men, causing your lineage to proliferate and become widespread.

References
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17351267
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27111036
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26108492
10-31-2019, 04:28 AM
Daos777

Origin of E-V13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daco Celtic

Here is what 23andMe has to say about E-V13, for what it is worth.

Origin and Migrations of Haplogroup E-M78

Your paternal line stems from the common ancestor of haplogroup E-M78, a branch of E that dates back approximately 24,000 years. The earliest carriers of the E-M78 lineage likely lived in a population that moved from eastern Africa into northeastern Africa about 14,000 years ago, during the final days of the Ice Age. From northeastern Africa, their descendants expanded to the west between the Sahara and the Mediterranean coastline, and to the east out of Africa into the Middle East, where E-M78 men remain common.

Today, men bearing this haplogroup are also common in southern Europe, including in the Balkans, Iberia, and Italy. In Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania, between 15% and 30% of men bear haplogroup E-M78. Their ancestors were likely relatively late arrivals to the region. While some branches of haplogroup E were carried into Europe nearly 8,000 years ago, recent research suggests that the major spread of E-M78 occurred in the last 5,000 years or so during the Bronze Age. Bronze Age cultures learned to smelt tin and copper to create beautiful and complex bronze items like hardier tools and weapons. They journeyed along river waterways in the Balkans and spread into east-central Europe. Today, men from Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, and Slovakia all carry E-M78 at levels of nearly 10%.

While the majority of E-M78 European males trace their recent ancestry to Turkey and the Middle East, some men carrying E-M78 from Spain, Italy and Greece trace their ancestry directly from North African populations, probably within the last 4,000 years. The ancestors of these men must have sailed across the Mediterranean Sea and settled in communities along the European coast.

Your paternal haplogroup, E-V13, traces back to a man who lived approximately 11,000 years ago.
That's nearly 440.0 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your paternal line.

Your haplogroup migrated in large numbers from the Balkans into Europe about 4,500 years ago, triggered by the beginning of the Balkan Bronze Age. During this migration, members of your haplogroup mainly followed rivers connecting the southern Balkans to northern-central Europe. Technological leaps often cause lineages to grow dramatically in numbers and in geographic range. The development of Bronze technology may have given men in your lineage a competitive advantage over other men, causing your lineage to proliferate and become widespread.

References
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17351267
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27111036
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26108492

“northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9-17.3 ky and 18.0-5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago. A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe”

In their source that they provided it literally says E-M78 migrated to Europe directly from Northern Africa ~13,000 years ago yet they say 4,000 years? Wtf am I misunderstanding something? Lol

Also where is this Levantine E-V13 ancestor? Nothing like that has been found yet the majority of European E-V13 can trace their origins to Middle East and Turkey where no ancestor to E-V13 was ever found. Interesting lol.

My arguments aren’t against you but 23 and me lol. Thanks for the post.
10-31-2019, 04:55 AM
Coastal Elite

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

“northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9-17.3 ky and 18.0-5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago. A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe”

In their source that they provided it literally says E-M78 migrated to Europe directly from Northern Africa ~13,000 years ago yet they say 4,000 years? Wtf am I misunderstanding something? Lol

Also where is this Levantine E-V13 ancestor? Nothing like that has been found yet the majority of European E-V13 can trace their origins to Middle East and Turkey where no ancestor to E-V13 was ever found. Interesting lol.

My arguments aren’t against you but 23 and me lol. Thanks for the post.

No problem, that was just a cut and paste. I think the references might good to look at but one is kind of old, 2007 i think.
10-31-2019, 05:21 AM
Mortimer

Balkans Bronze Age cultures. Thats what 23andme says.
12-09-2019, 09:08 PM
Daos777

Well researched post by user from another forum:

“It is no fantasy whatsoever that E-V13 arrived to Europe directly from North Africa, and that it did not arrive from Levant. This is pre-history and those without archaeological knowledge are basically blind..

So..

There exists archaeological evidence for such migration, in the form of Capsian elements in Late Mesolithic site Crvena Stijena III in modern West Montenegro. What is interesting is that this particular site had direct connections to the site where L618 was found in Dalmatia. 100 % people from Crvena Stijena also participated in some form in Cardial Dalmatian Neolithic culture. Dalmatian Neolithic is known to have had some Meoslithic influence, also autosomally seen in one sample there with a bunch of blue eye mutations and WHG influence.
To quote Yugoslav archaeologist Borivoj Čović:
The culture of Mesolithic inhabitants of Crvena Stijena is firmly tied to the contemporary cultures of Northern Africa, especially to those of so-called Capsian type... The congruence in shapes of a large number of smaller tools (out of which some are highly specialized tools for fine processing of skin and bones) are of such degree that they do not leave much space to doubt, and primarily Northafrican origin not only of these forms but also of the Mesolithic population of Crvena Stijena.

Furthermore going by current genetic evidence the Dalmatian Cardial sample is negative to two SNP's at the L618 level, that in addition to their current spread might be used as evidence to suggest all of current L618, V13- samples are of European origin. For one L618 clade that already seems obvious. Second clade has Latvian-Lebanese connection but this connection is not Neolithic it is 4800 years old. So either the Lebanese is a descendant of L618 who stayed in Levant or he arrived in EBA from Europe, considering the current evidence latter is more likely.

Interestingly as I mentioned here, there was a skull cult throughout the Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic, without any doubt this pratice is something that was very important to those people. The problem is its origin is unclear. First connotation were Natufians but typologically it resembles more the Mesolithic practices found in Iron Gates culture as well as in some Croatian late Mesolithic sites. As Iberomaurusians and Capsians also showed signs of special treatment of skulls, so direct North African connotation of this cult cannot be excluded.

Additionally in Dalmatian Neolithic the burial practice of leaving the deceased, except chiefs, to be unburied and eaten by wild animals in wilderness has been compared to Maasai by a Yugoslav archaeologist.

But think of this, if E-V13 did arrive from Levant in Neolithic as part of Cardial Pottery wave, then this skull cult descends of Natufians, and because of its importance it can be postulated that the E-V13 throughout Neolithic never spoke Etruscan or some usual EEF, but rather Afroasiatic. From my perspective preferably something proto-Egyptian-like (when I was 12 I knew lot about most pyramids) and Semitic ethnogenesis is closely associated with later J1-Z2331, J2-M205 spread.

Autosomally Dalmatian Neolithic samples had small Iberomaurusian-like influence that EEF's by and large lacked. Though one can connect this to Natufians as well who were 27 % Iberomaurusian.”

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12-10-2019, 04:57 PM
Domias

Interesting. But 1st E-V13 were already 'Causoid' or it is the same debate than its ancestor haplogroup E, which nobody is certain it was SSA or Eurasian in origin ?
12-10-2019, 05:31 PM
Qamari

Some of you have written that E-V13 are descending from some elite people, well, it's always flattering to read such things haha :cool:
02-21-2020, 12:46 AM
Daos777

Bump. Anyone have any new information about E-V13?
02-21-2020, 01:09 AM
TheMaestro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

Bump. Anyone have any new information about E-V13?

Yes, you're black.
02-21-2020, 01:12 AM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaestro

Yes, you're black.

That’s not new information to me.
02-21-2020, 03:28 AM
Coastal Elite

https://i.imgur.com/1QpkRmu.gif
03-28-2020, 11:49 PM
Daos777

https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153..._num_21_2_4620

Most ancient E-M78 carriers:

Skull and skeletal measurements of iberomaurusians, torafalt and afalou populations compared to natufians. They were more robust if i read everything right.
03-29-2020, 01:22 AM
Joso

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153..._num_21_2_4620

Most ancient E-M78 carriers:

Skull and skeletal measurements of iberomaurusians, torafalt and afalou populations compared to natufians. They were more robust if i read everything right.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...82#post6589582
03-29-2020, 01:27 AM
Tauromachos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joso

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...82#post6589582

Dinarid is Dinarid what can we do
03-29-2020, 07:36 AM
Kmakkmak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153..._num_21_2_4620

Most ancient E-M78 carriers:

Skull and skeletal measurements of iberomaurusians, torafalt and afalou populations compared to natufians. They were more robust if i read everything right.

Neolitic revolution from nile valley.
03-29-2020, 03:54 PM
Tauromachos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmakkmak

Neolitic revolution from nile valley.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...he_Zambezi.jpg
03-29-2020, 04:12 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmakkmak

Neolitic revolution from nile valley.

Why only Neolitic? E men spread their genes throughout all of Africa. Western Africans are mainly E. E men conquered the big chocolate booty from the A and B men.
03-29-2020, 05:06 PM
Kmakkmak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos777

Why only Neolitic? E men spread their genes throughout all of Africa. Western Africans are mainly E. E men conquered the big chocolate booty from the A and B men.

I say that for E-V13.
03-29-2020, 06:43 PM
Daos777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmakkmak

I say that for E-V13.

Lol there is 0 evidence of that but sure. E-V13 is older than Neolithic as well.
03-31-2020, 08:59 PM
Daos777

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...83d74fff99.jpg

Notable E-V13ers

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03-31-2020, 09:09 PM
Ion Basescul

https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1512524856949.png

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