Are light traits in Southern Europe due to the northern European admixture ?

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Originally Posted by Kastrioti1443

how is that possible that north has more brown hair than south?

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We have much more black than they do.

My hair is black. Or close to it .

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Originally Posted by Comte Arnau

I don't think so. Before knowing Hoyos-Sanz's data, I already was under the personal impression that the Basque-Navarre-Aragon area was the most light-eyed in all of Iberia. When I got to know it, that just seemed to confirm it.

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I know it is. But by how much? Is the difference very large nowadays? That's what I was questioning, though I'm not very sure.

I was mostly referring to Italy btw, I've only read like one study about Spain ever. I just remember the difference between not massive, but still existant.

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Originally Posted by Reozek

France :

Évolution de la couleur des yeux des Français depuis la fin du XVIIe siècle.

1940 data -

North-east : blue 41% , gray 13% , dark 46%
Paris : blue 34% , 9 gray % , dark 57%
North-west : blue 29% , gray 20% , dark 51%
South-east : blue 25% , gray 11% , dark 64%
South-west : blue 23% , gray 14% , dark 63%

Bulgaria :

Contribution à l'étude anthropologique des bulgares

blue : 17,65%
gray : 22,59%
brown: 59,76%

plus green : 4,10%

Greece :

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0055712

14% light eyes
86% dark "

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Corsica :

Contribution à l'anthropologie des Corses : Anthropologie de la tête (suite)

dark eyes : 35,6%
intermediate : 41,8% (green [10,8%] , hazel , amber)
light : 22,6% (adding green = 33,4%)

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Originally Posted by ABest

I know it is. But by how much? Is the difference very large nowadays? That's what I was questioning, though I'm not very sure.

I was mostly referring to Italy btw, I've only read like one study about Spain ever. I just remember the difference between not massive, but still existant.

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People just can't imagine that here the north south divide originated since roman times...just look at the linguistic groups...

http://italiano.sismondi.ch/lingua/R...c_en.png/image


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...of_Dialect.jpg




...we've also the La-Spezia-Rimini line, that divide eastern from western romance languages.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rn_Romania.PNG

They're random occurrences. Light pigmentations are just more of an often occurrence in northern Europe.

Dienekes also has some more studies on Greece.

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/

Coon said that southeastern Crete had the lightest and tallest Greek population. Also, he states that some mountainous areas in central Greece were a bit lighter than the Greek average, if I remember correctly. For more information just go through the articles.

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rn_Romania.PNG

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I love how yet another map totally disses Malta. Won't even shade them black! Just leaves them off entirely while including Tunis. lol.

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Originally Posted by ABest

Dienekes also has some more studies on Greece.

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/

Coon said that southeastern Crete had the lightest and tallest Greek population. Also, he states that some mountainous areas in central Greece were a bit lighter than the Greek average, if I remember correctly. For more information just go through the articles.

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I thought that tessaliots and epiriots were the taller/lighter, while dodecanesians and cyclades the ''darker''.

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

I thought that tessaliots and epiriots were the taller/lighter, while dodecanesians and cyclades the ''darker''.

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I thought so too. Everyone I know from Epirus is blue eyed and fair, although with darker hair.

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Originally Posted by alfieb

I love how yet another map totally disses Malta. Won't even shade them black! Just leaves them off entirely while including Tunis. lol.

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That's because a romance language developed from V to IX centuries in the whole Maghreb...a language totally disappeared, erased by arabic invasion and berber cultural genocide.

Maghrebi arab dialect still hold some romance words...''Quasr'' for ''City'' (from castrum) and Quas for ''cheese'' (from caseus, tuscan and old italian cacio).

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

I thought that tessaliots and epiriots were the taller/lighter, while dodecanesians and cyclades the ''darker''.

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I've read that too. A lot of this is in Dienekes' articles btw! Also, I've read about the Pelopponesian pigmentation average being similar to that of Crete's overal average. Or that might have been about them clustering near each other genetically, I'm not sure! Also, it really depends on the island, but I think that, on average, hair/eye color of islanders is a bit darker than Epirotes, but not darker than some other mainlanders.

LOL, I have to go through these studies again, I've forgotten some of the details. But yeah, go through Dienekes' data if you're interested in Greece.

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Originally Posted by ABest

I've read that too. A lot of this is in Dienekes' articles btw! Also, I've read about the Pelopponesian pigmentation average being similar to that of Crete's overal average. Or that might have been about them clustering near each other genetically, I'm not sure! Also, it really depends on the island, but I think that, on average, hair/eye color of islanders is a bit darker than Epirotes, but not darker than some other mainlanders.

LOL, I have to go through these studies again, I've forgotten some of the details. But yeah, go through Dienekes' data if you're interested in Greece.

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All the times i'm in Dodecanese, people there look like sicilians or calabrese...it's amazing...i don't know if some Dodecanesian island sent colonist in Sicily in the Second Expansion, but probably yes.

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

I thought so too. Everyone I know from Epirus is blue eyed and fair, although with darker hair.

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Epirots are not taller, but very light in eyes, tosk albanians have evan more light eyes than gheg highlanders.

These 2 albanian footballers come from Laberia, region of albanian Epirus:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5716/gericipijp8.jpg

http://answers.bettor.com/images/Art...zio-128346.jpg

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

All the times i'm in Dodecanese, people there look like sicilians or calabrese...it's amazing...i don't know if some Dodecanesian island sent colonist in Sicily in the Second Expansion, but probably yes.

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I don't frankly think mainland Greeks (except some southern Peloponnesians) look anything like Sicilians and Calabrese. But islanders do.

I found only that the sicilian City of Naxos was colonized by (obviously) naxos islanders.

( if someone can read italian this is the page http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_greca )

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

I don't frankly think mainland Greeks (except some southern Peloponnesians) look anything like Sicilians and Calabrese. But islanders do.

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Islanders definitely do. However, I always perceived Peloponnesians and islanders as relatively similar looking. Maybe it's just me.

Anyway, there are pigmentation average differences between Greeks but not nearly as big as in bigger countries like Spain and Italy, I would assume.

Plus, the averages I posted about Macedonians and Pontic Greeks from the 19th century-early 20th century kinda support my point, since they don't really manifest any sort of great blondness at all.

I actually want to email Dienekes about this issue, I wonder what his opinion is.

I think it's either

1) a higher retention of ancient Greek genes in Sicilians/Calabrese and Greek islanders versus high Albanian and/or Slavic influence in parts of mainland Greece AND Pontians being Hellenized Caucasians and Cypriots Hellenized Levantines

or

2) The Neolithic wave of migration that hit the Greek islands also got southern Italy but missed mainland Greece.

For the record Cypriots also appear more "familiar" in comparison to Sicilians than do mainland Greeks.

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

I found only that the sicilian City of Naxos was colonized by (obviously) naxos islanders.

( if someone can read italian this is the page http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_greca )

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I spent a week in Naxos so I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember the story all that well, but I believe it was destroyed and repopulated by others, hence why it is Giardini-Naxos, similar to Calatafimi-Segesta.

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

I found only that the sicilian City of Naxos was colonized by (obviously) naxos islanders.

( if someone can read italian this is the page http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_greca )

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I see. BTW, I always thought that ancient Greeks looked a bit darker than modern Greeks. Would you agree?

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Originally Posted by ABest

I see. BTW, I always thought that ancient Greeks looked a bit darker than modern Greeks. Would you agree?

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Yes and no.

Greece today has Slavic influence which lightened them.
But Greece also has a lot of Pontians living there who moved from Pontos.. and Pontians are Hellenized Armenian-like people, thus bringing a racially alien and darker type into Greece.

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

I think it's either

1) a higher retention of ancient Greek genes in Sicilians/Calabrese and Greek islanders versus high Albanian and/or Slavic influence in parts of mainland Greece AND Pontians being Hellenized Caucasians and Cypriots Hellenized Levantines

or

2) The Neolithic wave of migration that hit the Greek islands also got southern Italy but missed mainland Greece.

For the record Cypriots also appear more "familiar" in comparison to Sicilians than do mainland Greeks.

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This is a man speaking calabrian greek.

If you read comments, a lot of cypriots say ''wow our languages are very similar''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqIhoshpotI

I've found some Sicilians on 23andme, mostly in the Catania and Enna area, clustering near Cypriots.

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Originally Posted by Alex Delarge

That's pretty much impossible to know.

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unless geneticists test more pre-bronze age southern euros like Oetzi (before BB reflux , Urnfield and Hallstatt expansion) and then compare them with post-bronze age southern euros...

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

Yes and no.

Greece today has Slavic influence which lightened them.
But Greece also has a lot of Pontians living there who moved from Pontos.. and Pontians are Hellenized Armenian-like people, thus bringing a racially alien and darker type into Greece.

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I see. Yeah, I do agree that lighter types have been introduced in every southern nation over the years.

Of course, some light characteristics are inherent in Med people but population movements are inevitable.

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Originally Posted by ABest

I see. Yeah, I do agree that lighter types have been introduced in every southern nation over the years.

Of course, some light characteristics are inherent in Med people but population movements are inevitable.

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Yes. But I also think to balance it out, more Greeks today look truly Armenoid than otherwise would because Pontic Greeks are Hellenized and cluster in the Caucasus, and have moved to (and mixed with) other Greeks.

I wish people would be interested in northern italian cultures as they're about southern Italy, lol...

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

This is a man speaking calabrian greek.

If you read comments, a lot of cypriots say ''wow our languages are very similar''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqIhoshpotI

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Not to correct you again, but I believe you've posted him before.

He's from the Griko community of Puglia. The Calabrese Griko is a very different dialect.

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

This is a man speaking calabrian greek.

If you read comments, a lot of cypriots say ''wow our languages are very similar''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqIhoshpotI

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I think the fact that clusters of Greek speakers still exist in Italy is so touching. It is amazing! :)

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Originally Posted by alfieb

Not to correct you again, but I believe you've posted him before.

He's from the Griko community of Puglia. The Calabrese Griko is a very different dialect.

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Pardon, you're true...this is apulian greek (the ''griko''), not calabrian.

This is calabrian greek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e-aOheCFbY

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Originally Posted by ABest

I think the fact that clusters of Greek speakers still exist in Italy is so touching. It is amazing! :)

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Yes it's an amazing thing....but unfortunately the language is nearly extinct.

It's too bad all of southern Italy isn't still speaking Greek like they should be!

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

Yes. But I also think to balance it out, more Greeks today look truly Armenoid than otherwise would because Pontic Greeks are Hellenized and cluster in the Caucasus, and have moved to (and mixed with) other Greeks.

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Yeah. Nowadays, I would say Greece is rather homogeneous because Greeks from all over the place have married each other.

That is especially the case in Athens. No one is really an Athenian. Like, no one, seriously.

But that's the case all over Greece as well. That is why group classifications from northern vs southern Greece seem pointless to me. It is impossible to really know the mixed origins of many people in those photos.

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

It's too bad all of southern Italy isn't still speaking Greek like they should be!

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Know why that is?

The Greeks themselves were to "blame".

They were the stubbornnest, holding out as long as they could against Arab rule with the hope that the Roman Empire, their fellow Greeks, would save them before their cities fell.

It took a century to conquer them, and by then the Arabs were well-settled in the west, so they said fuck it and kept Palermo as the capital, when throughout all of history it had been Syracuse.

When the Normans came along, Palermo was humongous and one of the wealthiest cities on the planet, so it wasn't even a question where to go. Noto, near Syracuse, was the last Arab-held city to fall, twenty years after Palermo was captured.

The Normans and Germans embraced the Sicilian language, but if the capital had been in the East, who knows. Our people may still have been "Greeks" today.

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Originally Posted by alfieb

The Normans and Germans embraced the Sicilian language, but if the capital had been in the East, who knows. Our people may still have been "Greeks" today.

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The reason I wish Sicilians still spoke Greek and identified as such is because I think there is something to be proud of in a continuous history and one language spoken continuously. Like, if we still spoke Greek we could be like, the Greeks settled, they are our people, and we still speak the same language we did since before Biblical times.

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

The reason I wish Sicilians still spoke Greek and identified as such is because I think there is something to be proud of in a continuous history and one language spoken continuously. Like, if we still spoke Greek we could be like, the Greeks settled, they are our people, and we still speak the same language we did since before Biblical times.

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Understandable, I was only giving the cause and effect. If Sicily didn't speak a Romance language similar to Italian, I don't think there'd be any question that it would never have been added to Italy.

On the other hand, it may very well have been invaded by the Turks if it remained majority-Greek Orthodox. Who knows, it could be divided like Cyprus today, or have an awful religious split like Bosnia or Albania.

Best case scenario would be a Hellenic Sicily, like any other Greek island.

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Originally Posted by Sikeliot

Best case scenario would be a Hellenic Sicily, like any other Greek island.

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That would be amazing. Also southern Italy, up to Naples?

Am I asking for too much? :p

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Originally Posted by Peyrol

Pardon, you're true...this is apulian greek (the ''griko''), not calabrian.

This is calabrian greek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e-aOheCFbY

Does it have an Italian accent because its (obviously) located in Italy or did Greek affect the Latin accent long ago?


Yes it's an amazing thing....but unfortunately the language is nearly extinct.

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Originally Posted by Dombra

Does it have an Italian accent because its (obviously) located in Italy or did Greek affect the Latin accent long ago?

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Obviously this girl has an heavy calabrese inflession...the pronunciation of the ''s'' like a snake rattle.

Where in Calabria is Greek still spoken? My Calabrese great grandmother came from Crotone. I am wondering if it's anywhere near that. Considering I have recent Greek relatives on 23andme.