One of those French averages is not right (Provence I think, it's strongly North Italian). Also the names shouldn't be of ancient tribes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Printable View
One of those French averages is not right (Provence I think, it's strongly North Italian). Also the names shouldn't be of ancient tribes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
I made two Provence averages, one using southern-shifted samples one using northern-shifted samples. Because the two groups have nothing in common.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Septimanian is a name that for example French TA user Ilma used to describe her ancestry, so I'm not sure why do you think these names are not in use anymore?
It doesn't make sense to make one average for a region, if there are two distinct genetic groups in this region.
It would be like making one average for "Pre-War Warsaw" and averaging together ethnic Polish and Jewish samples.
In Provence some individuals are North Italian genetically and others are Central French. These are academic samples.
I didn't know what Septimania was, so I'm sure many others wouldn't as well. It's an historical name. Modern regional names should be used for modern people. Belgica = French_North, Armorica = French_Northwest, Aquitania = French_Southwest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
The North Italian-like Provence average should be called Provence_outlier or something.
But they were not outliers, they were about 50% of entire sample? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
In that thread I posted K15 results of all individual Provence samples.
About half were northern-shifted and the other half southern-shifted.
If "Southerners" were just a small minority I would ignore them.
And those 50% had all French names in their GEDCOMs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Those were all academic samples, not GEDmatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
There are 30 samples from Provence, and actually 18 of them are southern and only 12 are northern.
So "Southerners" are the majority of all samples:
Provence_North:
K13:
K15:Code:Provence_North1,43.4,15.03,20.62,7.47,9.79,1.67,0.6,0,0,0.2,0.63,0,0.6
Provence_North2,41.67,17.52,17.34,7.99,8.2,5.15,0.54,0,0.97,0.2,0.42,0,0
Provence_North3,40.46,25.89,18.46,1.68,10.3,0,1.52,0,0,0.49,0,1.21,0
Provence_North4,42.23,15.28,22.22,8.16,9.26,0.72,0.2,1.22,0,0,0,0,0.72
Provence_North5,35.28,17.97,21.73,8.66,10.05,1.96,0,1.05,0,0.45,1.37,0,1.49
Provence_North6,40.37,17.01,23.71,2.36,13.63,0.54,0,0,0,0,0.92,1.29,0.16
Provence_North7,43.98,17.81,20.87,0.72,11.56,2.24,0,1.63,0,0,0.57,0.63,0
Provence_North8,40.22,17.44,17.83,4.5,12.66,2.78,0,0.21,0.85,0.19,0,0.51,2.79
Provence_North9,42.31,16.77,26.78,2.09,8.95,1.12,0,0.44,0,0.31,0,0.39,0.84
Provence_North10,39.54,13.81,24.37,6.19,9.84,3.2,0,1.64,0,0.42,0,0.74,0.24
Provence_North11,36.98,18.09,24.67,6.88,10.66,1.24,0.52,0,0,0.34,0.61,0,0
Provence_North12,43.21,16.52,18.34,6.57,9.48,2.89,1.33,0,0.16,0,1.1,0.39,0
Provence_South:Code:Provence_North1,30.27,24.64,7.68,3.56,17.6,7.15,5.94,1.69,0.24,0,0,0.02,0.56,0,0.65
Provence_North2,27.89,25.66,8.76,5.92,13.03,5.79,7.31,4.38,0.33,0,0.74,0,0.2,0,0
Provence_North3,25.81,25.78,13.7,10.76,14.29,0.03,7.88,0,0.55,0,0,0.07,0,1.14,0
Provence_North4,27.39,26.64,8.73,3.53,17.39,8.49,4.92,1.51,0,0.71,0,0,0,0.11,0.58
Provence_North5,25.84,20.18,8.47,6.12,18.79,9.04,6.04,1.88,0,0.87,0,0.22,1.3,0,1.24
Provence_North6,30.26,22.82,8.81,3.66,19.37,2.2,10.36,0.56,0,0,0,0,0.57,1.14,0.24
Provence_North7,28.01,27.46,7.45,6.54,17.39,0,8.44,2.41,0,1.17,0,0,0.57,0.57,0
Provence_North8,28.91,21.37,8.33,6.28,14.27,4.94,9.82,2.36,0,0.07,0.26,0.04,0,0.79,2.56
Provence_North9,29.8,24.05,10.05,3.32,23.5,2.76,3.77,1.04,0,0.08,0,0.12,0,1.1,0.41
Provence_North10,26.31,23.84,4.01,7.55,20.31,4.92,7.43,3.42,0,1.16,0,0.2,0,0.77,0.07
Provence_North11,21.56,25.75,11.58,5.75,19.38,5.46,9.16,0.88,0,0,0,0.05,0.44,0,0
Provence_North12,30.49,25.99,5.32,6.29,15.04,6.65,4.41,3.38,1.07,0,0,0,1.03,0.33,0
K13:
K15:Code:Provence_South1,38.01,15.74,21.09,5.5,15.31,1.4,2.13,0.2,0,0.12,0.19,0.32,0
Provence_South2,34.84,10.76,20.98,9.2,17.29,3.87,1.25,0.24,0,0,0.31,1.25,0
Provence_South3,37.18,12.56,22.99,5.03,17.45,2.88,0,0.04,0.78,0,0.73,0.36,0
Provence_South4,33.38,12.24,29.99,5.74,17.21,0.05,0,0.16,0,0.66,0,0.56,0
Provence_South5,32.96,19.11,23.18,6.29,16.25,1.07,0,0,0,0,0.64,0,0.5
Provence_South6,32.61,10.25,22.42,8.39,20.01,2.57,1.07,0,0,1.84,0,0.85,0
Provence_South7,29.98,11.9,19.58,6.12,25.01,3.87,0,0.78,0,0.92,0,1.84,0
Provence_South8,33.27,16.64,22.04,6.47,15.33,3.64,0,0,0,1.19,0,0,1.42
Provence_South9,34.37,7.33,27.94,3.74,21.32,2.31,0,0,0,0.6,0.59,1.8,0
Provence_South10,33.61,15.06,17.32,10.01,19.14,2.98,0,1.41,0,0,0,0,0.47
Provence_South11,37.62,14.69,21.09,5.11,17.95,0,1.69,0,0.36,0,1.48,0,0
Provence_South12,39.65,15.11,22.5,4.9,11.83,3.45,0,0,1.82,0.07,0.69,0,0
Provence_South13,40.68,19.36,19.86,0.24,17.43,0.9,0,1.24,0,0,0,0,0.29
Provence_South14,29.56,14.15,19.26,10.43,19.4,4.46,0,0,0,1.21,0.57,0,0.94
Provence_South15,31.84,15.14,22.22,6.33,20.21,1.36,0,0,1.53,0.23,0.58,0.06,0.49
Provence_South16,39.52,16.24,20.17,7.23,14.02,2.13,0,0,0,0,0.59,0.1,0
Provence_South17,39.12,13.50,22.18,8.15,13.81,2.82,0,0.42,0,0,0,0,0
Provence_South18,37.08,16,23.93,4.92,12.07,3.42,0,0.95,0.81,0.25,0.35,0,0.2
^^^Code:Provence_South1,22.34,25.64,10.82,2.99,16.57,4.75,13.02,1.52,2.04,0,0,0,0,0.3,0
Provence_South2,19.65,26.11,5.72,2.22,17.05,7.85,15.02,3.78,1.1,0.08,0,0,0.13,1.29,0
Provence_South3,23.54,24.02,2.07,7.03,20.31,3.78,15.66,2.5,0,0,0.26,0,0.55,0.28,0
Provence_South4,13.26,28.75,7.69,5.28,24.29,6.39,12.95,0.68,0,0,0,0.31,0,0.4,0
Provence_South5,19.07,23.66,9.74,8.79,18.03,5.5,13.81,1.11,0,0,0,0,0.18,0,0.1
Provence_South6,19.45,22.47,3.13,5.55,18.82,8.58,16.29,2.66,0.8,0,0,1.39,0,0.85,0
Provence_South7,18.35,21.53,6.01,3.41,15.6,6.83,21.67,3.54,0,0.37,0,0.44,0,2.25,0
Provence_South8,17.65,24.84,8.93,6.34,18.15,5.25,13.55,3.4,0,0,0,0.79,0,0,1.09
Provence_South9,20.77,23.17,3.32,0.39,23.83,5.15,18.41,2.19,0,0,0,0.3,0.44,2.03,0
Provence_South10,25.42,18.27,7.94,3.8,13.93,10.46,15.29,3.37,0,1.01,0,0,0,0,0.52
Provence_South11,19.45,29.97,10.41,2.29,15.2,4.41,15.58,0,1.42,0,0.07,0,1.12,0,0.07
Provence_South12,25.84,25.58,7.31,3.38,18.88,5.21,8.24,3.59,0,0,1.62,0,0.34,0,0
Provence_South13,26.88,26.07,7.91,6.97,17.04,0,12.86,1.44,0,0.71,0,0,0,0,0.13
Provence_South14,20.07,21.5,7.42,2.89,14.4,8.75,18.48,4.13,0,0,0,0.99,0.57,0,0.79
Provence_South15,21.58,19.03,8.04,5.84,18.37,7.27,15.84,1.91,0,0,1.05,0.04,0.47,0.54,0
Provence_South16,27.32,23.67,8.42,3.27,16.72,7.44,10.62,2.27,0,0,0,0,0.27,0,0
Provence_South17,29.13,21.36,5.08,5.01,19.02,6.85,10.10,3.45,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Provence_South18,17.97,29.78,8.86,6.01,18.21,5.9,7.87,3.65,0,1.11,0.37,0,0.28,0,0
Provence_South_Average(n=18):
K13:
K15:Code:FRA_Provence_South,35.29,14.21,22.15,6.32,17.28,2.40,0.34,0.30,0.29,0.39,0.37,0.40,0.24
Provence_North_Average(n=12):Code:FRA_Provence_South,21.54,24.19,7.16,4.53,18.02,6.13,14.18,2.51,0.30,0.18,0.19,0.24,0.24,0.44,0.15
K13:
K15:Code:FRA_Provence_North,40.80,17.43,21.41,5.27,10.37,1.96,0.39,0.52,0.17,0.22,0.47,0.43,0.57
Why should I exclude as outliers the group that is actually in majority?Code:FRA_Provence_North,27.71,24.52,8.57,5.77,17.53,4.79,7.12,1.96,0.18,0.34,0.08,0.06,0.39,0.50,0.48
Whatever, they're obviously descendants of recent Italian immigration, you should at least combine them with the more French samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Based on what? They are 60% of the whole samples. Provence is near Italian border.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
To me, some of the 12 Provence_North samples look more out of place, for example:
Distance to: Provence_North8
5.75518028 Swiss_German
6.65942940 Austria-Tyrol
6.69130032 Italy_Aostavalley
6.98003582 FRA_Alsace
7.36030570 FRA_Belgica
Distance to: Provence_North3
8.17110764 Swiss_German
8.22175164 German_Bavarian
8.22187327 FRA_Alsace
8.61930392 FRA_Central
8.74318020 South_Dutch
Distance to: Provence_North12
5.85830180 FRA_Belgica
6.60568694 FRA_Central
7.50445201 Belgium
7.58744357 South_Dutch
7.75107089 Swiss_German
7.78271803 Italy_Aostavalley
8.40116063 FRA_Alsace
You can make one average from all 30 if you want, or experiment how to group them.
By the way, ITA Aosta Valley is quite similar to FRA Rhone-Alpes.
So why shouldn't Provence be more southern-shifted than Aosta?
Provence is located to the south of Rhone-Alpes after all.
Coastal Provence was inhabited by the Ligures in ancient times.
They are not out of place, Petalpusher mother is Provencal and plots like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Only coast of Provence is north Italian like on average and there is lot of recent Italian ancestry too.
Bit deper inland things change a lot.
Provence_North12 could pass as a local in Calais.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
That's the opposite end of France than Provence.
Azerbaijani JewishQuote:
Originally Posted by Aren
@Lucas, add this too.Code:Azerbaijani_Jewish,2.94,1.40,11.63,32.90,37.45,7.81,3.97,0.06,0.31,0.62,0.13,0.20,0.58
There’s absolutely no trusting in academic samples from France, that’s for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creoda
Well back in 2016/2017 I was telling here and on Anthrogenica that GEDmatch kits with GEDCOMs are superior to academic samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aren
All the autists cried that I must use academic samples because they are unbiased. Now all the autists cry the opposite. Quite funny?
Added. Please everyone write also for which calc it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Lucas, could you add all these to k13 ancient?
the SG version is very different from the normal one. i think people shuld be able to compare to both.Code:scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp,19.33,15.87,24.64,13.25,21.59,2.68,0.53,0,0.91,0.42,0.76,0,0.01
scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp,21.77,15.56,27.21,8.22,20.8,4.53,0,0,1.91,0,0,0,0
scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp,27.8,11.06,20.79,10.94,21.92,0,3.07,0,1.66,1.84,0.29,0.65,0
scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp,26.39,9.87,23.35,10.37,23.25,3.55,0,1.09,0,2.13,0,0,0
scy311_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2247_ybp,29.28,14.3,13.36,17.27,14.15,1.64,3.11,3.04,1.27,2.34,0.24,0,0
scy301_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2248_ybp,22.72,23.94,11.96,18.97,11.8,0,1.4,1.01,4.38,3.04,0,0,0.77
scy303_Moldova_Scythian_o2.SG_2242_ybp,45.53,29.8,10.39,4.74,4.1,0,3.03,0,0,1.01,1.31,0.09,0
ScythianMoldova_SCY311_Moldova_389-204_BC,38.58,18.93,18.02,11.92,11.13,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.43
ScythianMoldova_SCY300_Moldova_397-209_BC,34.52,9.33,30.97,6.42,18.53,0.22,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC,33.89,13.8,29,2.16,20.45,0.7,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce_,28,13.64,31.82,6.93,19.38,0.22,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
scy301_scythian_Moldova_390_205bce_,34.99,26.02,14.27,15.53,8.64,0,0,0,0,0.55,0,0,0
scy303_scythian_Moldova_380_203bce_,55.23,31.22,11.90,1.65,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Better?Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Hey, there are two average with same name (Croat). They are actually Croat and Croat-Croatia, but no idea which is which so could you replace them with these
(from Vbn, basically identical, just labeled properly)
Croat,28.40,33.22,14.89,7.81,11.70,1.47,0.53,0.28, 0.53,0.51,0.44,0.09,0.13
Croat_Croatia,28.75,33.31,14.82,7.80,11.35,1.45,0. 52,0.28,0.51,0.53,0.45,0.10,0.14
Ukhm yes. Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
AddedQuote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
Worse and I don't think that there should be duplicate samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
Distance to: scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp 3.88591045 Albanian_central_Albania 3.90220451 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia 3.92116054 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East 4.96767551 Albanian_Albania 4.97490703 Vlach_Central-Macedonia 5.12555363 Albanian 5.26485517 Albanian_Kosovo 5.44478650 Albanian_north_Albania 5.51688206 Kosovo_Albanian 5.74342232 Greek_Peloponnese 5.96184535 Greek_Thessaly 6.19620852 Albanian_Montenegro 6.32176399 Greek_Western-Thrace 6.83904233 Albanian_south_Albania 7.13965685 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central 7.35713939 Vlach_North-Macedonia 7.42800108 Greek_Central-Macedonia 7.46892228 Greek_Thessaloniki 7.49430450 Albanian_Macedonia 7.66047431 GR_Macedonia 7.76470379 GR_Peloponese 7.82357801 Bulgarian_Thrace 7.98338274 Greek_Western-Macedonia 8.26897817 Greek_Eastern-Thrace 8.27527643 Turk_Kazanlik 8.58604100 Macedonian_Southwest 8.71784951 Turk_Alexandroupoli 8.74038901 Macedonian_Central 8.83487974 Macedonian_Southeast 8.93161240 Bulgarian_Plovdiv 8.95010614 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander 9.32471447 Turk_Kavala 9.47877102 Greek_Northern-Thrace 9.48419738 Turk_Thessaloniki 9.49726178 North_Macedonian 9.56588208 Macedonian_North 9.61689659 Romagna 9.75526012 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope 9.80200490 Lazio 9.88575743 Gagauz 10.09244767 Marche 10.15612623 Greek_Macedonia_Thrace 10.29642171 Umbria 10.44858842 Macedonian_East 10.53628967 Pomak_Nevrokopi 10.56091379 Macedonian_Greece 10.67556088 Turk_Crete 10.68061328 Bulgarian_Central 10.77039461 Tuscany 10.78253681 Central_Greek
Distance to: scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce_ 7.61036793 Lombardy 8.21921529 FrenchCorsica 8.51479301 Liguria 8.54334244 Emilia 8.61624048 Tuscany 9.29774704 Piedmont 9.51386882 Veneto 11.22844602 Tuscan 11.44571972 Trentino 11.50222152 Romagna 11.89408677 Swiss-Italian2 12.29107400 Lazio 12.29144825 Umbria 12.49542716 FRA_Provence 12.78197559 Friuli-VG 13.06155044 Marche 13.11122039 Swiss_Italian 13.40427171 Albanian_north_Albania 13.68164829 Albanian_Kosovo 14.02238567 Greek_Western-Thrace 14.25308388 Spanish_Andalucia 14.44901727 Vlach_Central-Macedonia 14.49124908 Albanian 14.53129726 Spanish_Extremadura 14.61428753 Albanian_Albania 14.77329381 Kosovo_Albanian 14.90267761 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia 14.99093059 Portuguese 15.20281882 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East 15.23987533 Spanish_Valencia 15.26687918 Albanian_Macedonia 15.45210342 Albanian_south_Albania 15.46444632 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central 15.49442803 Albanian_central_Albania 15.74940316 Spanish_Galicia 15.79520497 Vlach_North-Macedonia 15.81090763 Greek_Central-Macedonia 15.99107876 Spanish_Murcia 15.99292344 Albanian_Montenegro 16.09229629 Macedonian_East 16.15249613 North_Macedonian 16.48804112 Bulgarian_Plovdiv 16.54279602 Bulgarian_Central 16.55313565 AostaValley 16.58655178 Spanish_Cataluna 16.62012936 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 16.92351914 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.95316490 Greek_Thessaly 17.16584399 Bulgarian_Serres 17.17128417 West_Sicilian
Run with Global 25 coordinates for comparison
Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy192 0.03169278 Greek_Thessaly 0.03236811 Italian_Umbria 0.03310296 Albanian 0.03330800 Greek_Peloponnese 0.03331785 Greek_Central_Macedonia 0.03365049 Italian_Tuscany 0.03527896 Italian_Marche 0.03528722 Italian_Piedmont 0.03541678 Italian_Molise 0.03715650 Swiss_Italian 0.03732629 Greek_Izmir 0.03799659 Italian_Abruzzo 0.03809924 Italian_Lazio 0.04098982 French_Corsica 0.04279906 Italian_Apulia 0.04342582 Italian_Basilicata 0.04428340 Italian_Veneto 0.04431050 Italian_Lombardy 0.04501619 Gagauz 0.04506564 Italian_Bergamo 0.04658284 Italian_Liguria 0.04727562 Italian_Campania 0.04752906 Sicilian_West 0.04785316 Bulgarian 0.04823806 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
Also, whoever is responsible for the Bulgarian samples should make regional averages. 17 references is too much, especially if some are based on 1-5 samples. That Dupnitsa sticks like a sore thumb.
how do these distance tables prove that one of these versions is better or worse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
one is obviously wrong, but until we figure out which one, they are both equally valid.
Until then, people should be able to compare to both versions and decide which one makes more sense to them.
it's user Kaspias.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
i also made these simplified averages:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...55#post6875455
Yeah, do we really need 5-6 Pomak and Torbeshi references?
Like a sore dupa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
There was a similar case here with the South Croat samples. There was a group that clustered with Slovenes and another group that clustered with Serbs. Since they were so different, I proposed having separate averages for them and it was done for a while before they were combined again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
So even though the two groups are genetically different, it seems best to combine them as that's what the average person from there should score. Huge outliers (like if one clusters with Normans) could be excluded. Are you able to distinguish between the northern and southern shifted samples with full accuracy? Wouldn't there be some samples transitional between the two that make it hard to decide which one belongs in which group?
By showing that the SG one is closer to how it works on Global 25, which is the benchmark against which we should compare.Quote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
This one is especially ridiculous.
Davidski's Global 25 (mix of Italian and Balkan pops in distances)
Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy197 0.03508725 Italian_Piedmont 0.03581732 Italian_Lombardy 0.03589029 Albanian 0.03589938 Greek_Thessaly 0.03630896 Italian_Liguria 0.03750360 Italian_Tuscany 0.03832999 Italian_Bergamo 0.03878050 Italian_Marche 0.03915087 French_Corsica 0.03992959 Swiss_Italian 0.04056906 Italian_Umbria 0.04087320 Italian_Veneto 0.04097068 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.04164617 Greek_Central_Macedonia 0.04370796 Italian_Lazio 0.04478593 Italian_Molise 0.04484785 Greek_Peloponnese 0.04653811 Italian_Abruzzo 0.04747566 Italian_Northeast 0.04955077 Greek_Izmir 0.04982110 Gagauz 0.04994709 Spanish_Menorca 0.05021826 Italian_Apulia 0.05125463 Bulgarian 0.05155938 Spanish_Baleares
SG one from K13 (mix of Italian and Balkan pops in distances)
Distance to: scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp 6.87866266 Albanian_north_Albania 7.29365478 Vlach_Central-Macedonia 7.64342855 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East 7.69003251 Albanian_Kosovo 7.71172484 Albanian_Albania 7.80235862 Albanian 7.81294439 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia 8.14415128 Albanian_central_Albania 8.32019831 Tuscany 8.68545336 Albanian_Macedonia 8.75502142 Romagna 8.80964490 Kosovo_Albanian 9.07295983 Albanian_south_Albania 9.07667340 Greek_Western-Thrace 9.21926244 Vlach_North-Macedonia 9.23403487 FrenchCorsica 9.39195933 Albanian_Montenegro 9.45345440 Emilia 9.46202410 Tuscan 9.54204381 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central 9.55164384 Greek_Thessaly 9.60281729 Greek_Central-Macedonia 9.68273722 Lazio 9.99962999 Umbria 10.20947599 Marche
Your suggestion (Italians and Southwest Europeans)
Distance to: ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC 5.05924896 Lombardy 6.82756179 Piedmont 6.97853853 Swiss-Italian2 7.12679451 Swiss_Italian 8.17178071 Veneto 8.26632929 Liguria 8.45540064 Trentino 8.92888571 FRA_Provence 9.26836555 Emilia 9.47829626 Spanish_Valencia 9.84430292 Portuguese 10.19473884 Spanish_Extremadura 10.28693832 Spanish_Andalucia 10.45607479 Tuscany 10.54939335 Spanish_Murcia 10.83650313 Friuli-VG 10.85466720 FrenchCorsica 11.15533953 Spanish_Galicia 11.24464317 Spanish_Cataluna 11.57187971 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.98993745 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 12.70738762 Tuscan 12.82517446 FRA_Septimania 13.13780042 AostaValley 13.33125275 Spanish_Cantabria
Bonus, which is self-explanatory really:
Target: vbn(serb)
Distance: 9.5890% / 9.58895517
64.4 AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp
35.6 ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC
Target: vbn(serb)
Distance: 5.4774% / 5.47740755
55.6 AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp
44.4 scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
^^^ And what is the source of the Non-SG sample?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
I remember that I processed and added the SG one.
MDLP K16 Ancient
Target: ME
Distance: 3.7974% / 3.79744022
44.0 Armenia_EBA
23.0 Anatolia_ChL
15.8 Kotias
5.4 Russia_LBA
3.6 Levant_BA
3.2 MiddleDorset
2.2 Vestonice14
1.6 Paglicci108
1.2 Continenza
why? Davidski obviously just used the reich lab/SG version of the sample.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
how does that make this version the better one? maybe Davidski doesn't know about, or doesn't have access to the other version.
today's Balkanians are a specific mix of paleo-balkanians, different ethnicities from the Roman empire, and Slavs (to cut it short).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
paleo-Balkanians were indeed similar to modern NW Italians, Corsicans and Iberians, only after that to Albanians and Greeks.
i'm talking about most of the other paleo-Balkan samples we have, from Croatia, Bulgaria, some from Hungary etc.
so the Moldovan ia samples being the closest to NW Italians too, and distant from modern Balkanians, wouldn't be weird or ridiculous at all.
but, it's still possible that an Albanian-like mix occured in IA Moldova, by SW-Euro-like people mixing with some atypical Scythians or Sarmatians. that's why i don't completely discard the other version yet.
there is one problem with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
https://i.imgur.com/jwHTrqL.jpg
the small circle is where we find Albanian like samples in the Iron age. (maybe)
the big circle is where we find SW European like ones.
modern population from the big circle can be shown as:
SW-Euro-like paleo-Balkanians
+ Imperial Roman samples
+ Slavs.
with very a small distance, too.
now tell me which makes more sense: this 3-way mix i propose, or that the Slavs mixed with an atypical population (which might have not existed at all) living on a very small area in Moldova , and then this mix settled the entire Balkans and completely wiped out the previous population there?
it was uploaded to gedmatch by the Chechen user RasulSrg (Serganover) from Anthrogenica.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Actually that group clustered with north shifted Bosniaks and Moldovans, not Slovenians. They almost completely lacked Celto-Germanic like input and were like Vlatko Vukovic and Incelslayer, NE shifted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingle
Croats south of Sava river can be very Slavic, but their other part is very southern and east Med shifted. Central European like samples are not the norm and likely have some ancestry from futher north in Croatia.
Look at figure S3 from the supplementary data of this study: https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...aat4457_SM.pdfQuote:
Originally Posted by vbnetkhio
scy192 and 305 cluster with Albanians and Greeks and are clearly detached from Italians.
scy197 and 300 cluster with Tuscans and Greeks.
All 4 don't cluster with Southwest Euros.
OK here is "the other" (non-SG) Scy197, I converted it directly from the BAM file at ENA:
Code:Scy197_K15,11.37,16.09,10.91,6.70,22.14,9.08,17.24,4.03,0,1.01,1.43,0,0,0,0
Scy197_K13,22.29,15.87,25.85,8.13,20.37,4.43,0,1.44,1.61,0,0,0,0
Scy197_K12b,3.65,0,0.95,0,34.48,20.91,0,0.16,5.43,2.97,29.50,1.97
Doesn't fit my agenda, try again :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Similar to SG version from David Reich?:
Distance to: Scy197_K15
6.33727071 Albanian-Kosovo
6.97281866 Albanian-Macedonia
7.93330952 Albanian-North
7.96759688 Kosovo_Albanian
8.61433108 Albanian-South
Distance to: Scy197_K13
6.14113182 Albanian_north_Albania
6.65007519 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
6.74528724 Albanian_Kosovo
6.99762102 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
7.00250669 Albanian
Distance to: Scy197_K12b
6.12801762 Italy_Romagna
6.99888548 Italy_Marche
7.09615741 Italy_Tuscany
7.25624448 Italy_Lazio
7.89226146 Italy_Emilia
BTW do you know who made Romagna and Emilia averages and what samples were used?
I never knew there had been Scythians with an Albanian-like genetic profile. Incredible.
"Are you even Iranic, bro?"
;)
Okay, I just meant they were significantly more northern shifted and Slovenes were the first group that came to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearsolina
please enlighten me, what's my agenda? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
i was open minded, and left an open possibility for these samples really being Albanian like, and explained how that could have occured. and you seem to be agressively pushing your position and completely discard mine.
i'm still waiting for an answer: what does an outlying, mixed population from a very small area in Moldova have to do with the grand scale genetics of the Balkans? (and of modern Moldovans and Romanians for that matter?)
there could have been some false steps in the making of this PCA . like, you know, using SG and non-SG samples in the same PCA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion Basescul
this could be that very same version. best to somehow get in touch with Serganover and find out what he used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
I don't, but it seems that Emilia shifts towards NW Italy while Romagna shifts towards central Italy, which makes some sense given geography.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterski
Spoiler!
Distance to: Italy_Romagna
3.17078697 Italy_Tuscany
3.57201036 Italy_Marche
3.78031401 Italy_Lazio
4.88339687 Italy_Emilia
5.66876690 Italy_Liguria
6.56808770 France_Corsica
8.35813376 Albanian_Kosovo
8.44931344 Italy_Lombardy
8.58028383 Italy_Veneto
8.62869747 Italy_Piedmont
9.27254550 Albanian_North
9.57434706 Italy_Abruzzo
10.21595693 Italy_FriuliVG
11.51571309 Italy_Apulia
11.97055554 Turk_Macedonia
12.04935320 Swiss_Italian
12.24617434 Italy_Campania
12.57282387 Italy_Trentino
12.64469849 Greek
12.71834109 Turk_Greece
12.94003111 Italy_Sicily
13.69855467 R.Moldova_Gagauz
13.78883606 R.Moldova_South
13.84994224 Gagauz
15.27976440 Ashkenazi_Jews
Distance to: Italy_Emilia
1.76184639 Italy_Liguria
1.86056046 Italy_Tuscany
3.87051040 Italy_Lombardy
4.44194508 Italy_Piedmont
4.88339687 Italy_Romagna
5.01504058 Italy_Veneto
6.29414546 France_Corsica
7.57312671 Italy_FriuliVG
7.76814125 Swiss_Italian
8.31862473 Italy_Marche
8.51598611 Italy_Lazio
8.51613681 Italy_Trentino
10.34068552 Albanian_Kosovo
10.73703800 Albanian_North
11.13622596 Italy_Aosta_Valley
14.33447030 Italy_Abruzzo
14.53308085 R.Moldova_South
14.81631712 Turk_Macedonia
15.00564650 R.Moldova_Gagauz
15.32884663 Turk_Greece
15.35401449 Gagauz
15.39065207 Macedonian
15.98010235 Baleares
16.27705354 Italy_Apulia
16.50704010 Montenegrin
You can see the same phenomenon with K13 too:
Distance to: Romagna
2.14032708 Umbria
2.25803011 Tuscan
2.63397039 Marche
2.73492230 Lazio
3.75471703 Tuscany
5.18447683 Emilia
6.03433509 Greek_Western-Thrace
6.31550473 Liguria
6.70143268 FrenchCorsica
7.51459912 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
7.93969143 West_Sicilian
8.07416250 Greek_Central-Macedonia
8.23694118 Albanian_north_Albania
8.37072876 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
8.45666601 Albanian_Kosovo
8.50124697 Albanian_south_Albania
8.53116639 Albanian
8.60124991 Albanian_Albania
8.76609377 Abruzzo
8.98375688 Kosovo_Albanian
9.41109983 Lombardy
9.42436735 Albanian_Macedonia
9.42628771 Albanian_Montenegro
9.50008947 Greek_Thessaly
9.55466378 Basilicata
Distance to: Emilia
1.28872030 Liguria
1.73109792 Tuscany
4.48160685 Lombardy
4.85026803 Tuscan
5.18447683 Romagna
5.30262199 Veneto
5.71440286 Piedmont
6.24458165 Umbria
6.58633434 FrenchCorsica
7.12345422 Lazio
7.35995924 Marche
7.41831517 Friuli-VG
7.68951234 FRA_Provence
8.80596389 Trentino
9.30274153 Swiss-Italian2
9.81633333 Swiss_Italian
10.29350281 Greek_Western-Thrace
10.30565864 Albanian_Kosovo
10.45201416 Albanian_north_Albania
10.58730844 Greek_Central-Macedonia
10.73716909 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
11.05945442 Kosovo_Albanian
11.18165462 Albanian
11.41637859 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
11.55069262 Albanian_Albania
I think however the Dodecad samples were curated by someone at Eupedia, best check over there.