Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

**J. Ketch** · 08-29-2020, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Leto

French & Swiss averages by Peterski. Lukasz, why do you reject 'em?

One of those French averages is not right (Provence I think, it's strongly North Italian). Also the names shouldn't be of ancient tribes.

**Peterski** · 08-30-2020, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Creoda

One of those French averages is not right (Provence I think, it's strongly North Italian). Also the names shouldn't be of ancient tribes.

I made two Provence averages, one using southern-shifted samples one using northern-shifted samples. Because the two groups have nothing in common.

Septimanian is a name that for example French TA user Ilma used to describe her ancestry, so I'm not sure why do you think these names are not in use anymore?

**Peterski** · 08-30-2020, 01:21 AM

It doesn't make sense to make one average for a region, if there are two distinct genetic groups in this region.

It would be like making one average for "Pre-War Warsaw" and averaging together ethnic Polish and Jewish samples.

In Provence some individuals are North Italian genetically and others are Central French. These are academic samples.

**J. Ketch** · 08-30-2020, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by Peterski

I made two Provence averages, one using southern-shifted samples one using northern-shifted samples. Because the two groups have nothing in common.

Septimanian is a name that for example French TA user Ilma used to describe her ancestry, so I'm not sure why do you think these names are not in use anymore?

I didn't know what Septimania was, so I'm sure many others wouldn't as well. It's an historical name. Modern regional names should be used for modern people. Belgica = French_North, Armorica = French_Northwest, Aquitania = French_Southwest.

The North Italian-like Provence average should be called Provence_outlier or something.

**Peterski** · 08-30-2020, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Creoda

The North Italian-like Provence average should be called Provence_outlier or something.

But they were not outliers, they were about 50% of entire sample?

In that thread I posted K15 results of all individual Provence samples.

About half were northern-shifted and the other half southern-shifted.

If "Southerners" were just a small minority I would ignore them.

**J. Ketch** · 08-30-2020, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Peterski

But they were not outliers, they were about 50% of entire sample?

And those 50% had all French names in their GEDCOMs?

**Peterski** · 08-30-2020, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Creoda

And those 50% had all French names in their GEDCOMs?

Those were all academic samples, not GEDmatch.

There are 30 samples from Provence, and actually 18 of them are southern and only 12 are northern.

So "Southerners" are the majority of all samples:

Provence_North:

K13:

Code:

Provence_North1,43.4,15.03,20.62,7.47,9.79,1.67,0.6,0,0,0.2,0.63,0,0.6
Provence_North2,41.67,17.52,17.34,7.99,8.2,5.15,0.54,0,0.97,0.2,0.42,0,0
Provence_North3,40.46,25.89,18.46,1.68,10.3,0,1.52,0,0,0.49,0,1.21,0
Provence_North4,42.23,15.28,22.22,8.16,9.26,0.72,0.2,1.22,0,0,0,0,0.72
Provence_North5,35.28,17.97,21.73,8.66,10.05,1.96,0,1.05,0,0.45,1.37,0,1.49
Provence_North6,40.37,17.01,23.71,2.36,13.63,0.54,0,0,0,0,0.92,1.29,0.16
Provence_North7,43.98,17.81,20.87,0.72,11.56,2.24,0,1.63,0,0,0.57,0.63,0
Provence_North8,40.22,17.44,17.83,4.5,12.66,2.78,0,0.21,0.85,0.19,0,0.51,2.79
Provence_North9,42.31,16.77,26.78,2.09,8.95,1.12,0,0.44,0,0.31,0,0.39,0.84
Provence_North10,39.54,13.81,24.37,6.19,9.84,3.2,0,1.64,0,0.42,0,0.74,0.24
Provence_North11,36.98,18.09,24.67,6.88,10.66,1.24,0.52,0,0,0.34,0.61,0,0
Provence_North12,43.21,16.52,18.34,6.57,9.48,2.89,1.33,0,0.16,0,1.1,0.39,0

K15:

Code:

Provence_North1,30.27,24.64,7.68,3.56,17.6,7.15,5.94,1.69,0.24,0,0,0.02,0.56,0,0.65
Provence_North2,27.89,25.66,8.76,5.92,13.03,5.79,7.31,4.38,0.33,0,0.74,0,0.2,0,0
Provence_North3,25.81,25.78,13.7,10.76,14.29,0.03,7.88,0,0.55,0,0,0.07,0,1.14,0
Provence_North4,27.39,26.64,8.73,3.53,17.39,8.49,4.92,1.51,0,0.71,0,0,0,0.11,0.58
Provence_North5,25.84,20.18,8.47,6.12,18.79,9.04,6.04,1.88,0,0.87,0,0.22,1.3,0,1.24
Provence_North6,30.26,22.82,8.81,3.66,19.37,2.2,10.36,0.56,0,0,0,0,0.57,1.14,0.24
Provence_North7,28.01,27.46,7.45,6.54,17.39,0,8.44,2.41,0,1.17,0,0,0.57,0.57,0
Provence_North8,28.91,21.37,8.33,6.28,14.27,4.94,9.82,2.36,0,0.07,0.26,0.04,0,0.79,2.56
Provence_North9,29.8,24.05,10.05,3.32,23.5,2.76,3.77,1.04,0,0.08,0,0.12,0,1.1,0.41
Provence_North10,26.31,23.84,4.01,7.55,20.31,4.92,7.43,3.42,0,1.16,0,0.2,0,0.77,0.07
Provence_North11,21.56,25.75,11.58,5.75,19.38,5.46,9.16,0.88,0,0,0,0.05,0.44,0,0
Provence_North12,30.49,25.99,5.32,6.29,15.04,6.65,4.41,3.38,1.07,0,0,0,1.03,0.33,0

Provence_South:

K13:

Code:

Provence_South1,38.01,15.74,21.09,5.5,15.31,1.4,2.13,0.2,0,0.12,0.19,0.32,0
Provence_South2,34.84,10.76,20.98,9.2,17.29,3.87,1.25,0.24,0,0,0.31,1.25,0
Provence_South3,37.18,12.56,22.99,5.03,17.45,2.88,0,0.04,0.78,0,0.73,0.36,0
Provence_South4,33.38,12.24,29.99,5.74,17.21,0.05,0,0.16,0,0.66,0,0.56,0
Provence_South5,32.96,19.11,23.18,6.29,16.25,1.07,0,0,0,0,0.64,0,0.5
Provence_South6,32.61,10.25,22.42,8.39,20.01,2.57,1.07,0,0,1.84,0,0.85,0
Provence_South7,29.98,11.9,19.58,6.12,25.01,3.87,0,0.78,0,0.92,0,1.84,0
Provence_South8,33.27,16.64,22.04,6.47,15.33,3.64,0,0,0,1.19,0,0,1.42
Provence_South9,34.37,7.33,27.94,3.74,21.32,2.31,0,0,0,0.6,0.59,1.8,0
Provence_South10,33.61,15.06,17.32,10.01,19.14,2.98,0,1.41,0,0,0,0,0.47
Provence_South11,37.62,14.69,21.09,5.11,17.95,0,1.69,0,0.36,0,1.48,0,0
Provence_South12,39.65,15.11,22.5,4.9,11.83,3.45,0,0,1.82,0.07,0.69,0,0
Provence_South13,40.68,19.36,19.86,0.24,17.43,0.9,0,1.24,0,0,0,0,0.29
Provence_South14,29.56,14.15,19.26,10.43,19.4,4.46,0,0,0,1.21,0.57,0,0.94
Provence_South15,31.84,15.14,22.22,6.33,20.21,1.36,0,0,1.53,0.23,0.58,0.06,0.49
Provence_South16,39.52,16.24,20.17,7.23,14.02,2.13,0,0,0,0,0.59,0.1,0
Provence_South17,39.12,13.50,22.18,8.15,13.81,2.82,0,0.42,0,0,0,0,0
Provence_South18,37.08,16,23.93,4.92,12.07,3.42,0,0.95,0.81,0.25,0.35,0,0.2

K15:

Code:

Provence_South1,22.34,25.64,10.82,2.99,16.57,4.75,13.02,1.52,2.04,0,0,0,0,0.3,0
Provence_South2,19.65,26.11,5.72,2.22,17.05,7.85,15.02,3.78,1.1,0.08,0,0,0.13,1.29,0
Provence_South3,23.54,24.02,2.07,7.03,20.31,3.78,15.66,2.5,0,0,0.26,0,0.55,0.28,0
Provence_South4,13.26,28.75,7.69,5.28,24.29,6.39,12.95,0.68,0,0,0,0.31,0,0.4,0
Provence_South5,19.07,23.66,9.74,8.79,18.03,5.5,13.81,1.11,0,0,0,0,0.18,0,0.1
Provence_South6,19.45,22.47,3.13,5.55,18.82,8.58,16.29,2.66,0.8,0,0,1.39,0,0.85,0
Provence_South7,18.35,21.53,6.01,3.41,15.6,6.83,21.67,3.54,0,0.37,0,0.44,0,2.25,0
Provence_South8,17.65,24.84,8.93,6.34,18.15,5.25,13.55,3.4,0,0,0,0.79,0,0,1.09
Provence_South9,20.77,23.17,3.32,0.39,23.83,5.15,18.41,2.19,0,0,0,0.3,0.44,2.03,0
Provence_South10,25.42,18.27,7.94,3.8,13.93,10.46,15.29,3.37,0,1.01,0,0,0,0,0.52
Provence_South11,19.45,29.97,10.41,2.29,15.2,4.41,15.58,0,1.42,0,0.07,0,1.12,0,0.07
Provence_South12,25.84,25.58,7.31,3.38,18.88,5.21,8.24,3.59,0,0,1.62,0,0.34,0,0
Provence_South13,26.88,26.07,7.91,6.97,17.04,0,12.86,1.44,0,0.71,0,0,0,0,0.13
Provence_South14,20.07,21.5,7.42,2.89,14.4,8.75,18.48,4.13,0,0,0,0.99,0.57,0,0.79
Provence_South15,21.58,19.03,8.04,5.84,18.37,7.27,15.84,1.91,0,0,1.05,0.04,0.47,0.54,0
Provence_South16,27.32,23.67,8.42,3.27,16.72,7.44,10.62,2.27,0,0,0,0,0.27,0,0
Provence_South17,29.13,21.36,5.08,5.01,19.02,6.85,10.10,3.45,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Provence_South18,17.97,29.78,8.86,6.01,18.21,5.9,7.87,3.65,0,1.11,0.37,0,0.28,0,0

^^^
Provence_South_Average(n=18):

K13:

Code:

FRA_Provence_South,35.29,14.21,22.15,6.32,17.28,2.40,0.34,0.30,0.29,0.39,0.37,0.40,0.24

K15:

Code:

FRA_Provence_South,21.54,24.19,7.16,4.53,18.02,6.13,14.18,2.51,0.30,0.18,0.19,0.24,0.24,0.44,0.15

Provence_North_Average(n=12):

K13:

Code:

FRA_Provence_North,40.80,17.43,21.41,5.27,10.37,1.96,0.39,0.52,0.17,0.22,0.47,0.43,0.57

K15:

Code:

FRA_Provence_North,27.71,24.52,8.57,5.77,17.53,4.79,7.12,1.96,0.18,0.34,0.08,0.06,0.39,0.50,0.48

Why should I exclude as outliers the group that is actually in majority?

**J. Ketch** · 08-30-2020, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by Peterski

Those were all academic samples, not GEDmatch.

There are 30 samples from Provence, and actually 18 of them are southern and only 12 are northern.

So "Southerners" are the majority of all samples:

Provence_North:

K13:

Code:

Provence_North1,43.4,15.03,20.62,7.47,9.79,1.67,0.6,0,0,0.2,0.63,0,0.6
Provence_North2,41.67,17.52,17.34,7.99,8.2,5.15,0.54,0,0.97,0.2,0.42,0,0
Provence_North3,40.46,25.89,18.46,1.68,10.3,0,1.52,0,0,0.49,0,1.21,0
Provence_North4,42.23,15.28,22.22,8.16,9.26,0.72,0.2,1.22,0,0,0,0,0.72
Provence_North5,35.28,17.97,21.73,8.66,10.05,1.96,0,1.05,0,0.45,1.37,0,1.49
Provence_North6,40.37,17.01,23.71,2.36,13.63,0.54,0,0,0,0,0.92,1.29,0.16
Provence_North7,43.98,17.81,20.87,0.72,11.56,2.24,0,1.63,0,0,0.57,0.63,0
Provence_North8,40.22,17.44,17.83,4.5,12.66,2.78,0,0.21,0.85,0.19,0,0.51,2.79
Provence_North9,42.31,16.77,26.78,2.09,8.95,1.12,0,0.44,0,0.31,0,0.39,0.84
Provence_North10,39.54,13.81,24.37,6.19,9.84,3.2,0,1.64,0,0.42,0,0.74,0.24
Provence_North11,36.98,18.09,24.67,6.88,10.66,1.24,0.52,0,0,0.34,0.61,0,0
Provence_North12,43.21,16.52,18.34,6.57,9.48,2.89,1.33,0,0.16,0,1.1,0.39,0

K15:

Code:

Provence_North1,30.27,24.64,7.68,3.56,17.6,7.15,5.94,1.69,0.24,0,0,0.02,0.56,0,0.65
Provence_North2,27.89,25.66,8.76,5.92,13.03,5.79,7.31,4.38,0.33,0,0.74,0,0.2,0,0
Provence_North3,25.81,25.78,13.7,10.76,14.29,0.03,7.88,0,0.55,0,0,0.07,0,1.14,0
Provence_North4,27.39,26.64,8.73,3.53,17.39,8.49,4.92,1.51,0,0.71,0,0,0,0.11,0.58
Provence_North5,25.84,20.18,8.47,6.12,18.79,9.04,6.04,1.88,0,0.87,0,0.22,1.3,0,1.24
Provence_North6,30.26,22.82,8.81,3.66,19.37,2.2,10.36,0.56,0,0,0,0,0.57,1.14,0.24
Provence_North7,28.01,27.46,7.45,6.54,17.39,0,8.44,2.41,0,1.17,0,0,0.57,0.57,0
Provence_North8,28.91,21.37,8.33,6.28,14.27,4.94,9.82,2.36,0,0.07,0.26,0.04,0,0.79,2.56
Provence_North9,29.8,24.05,10.05,3.32,23.5,2.76,3.77,1.04,0,0.08,0,0.12,0,1.1,0.41
Provence_North10,26.31,23.84,4.01,7.55,20.31,4.92,7.43,3.42,0,1.16,0,0.2,0,0.77,0.07
Provence_North11,21.56,25.75,11.58,5.75,19.38,5.46,9.16,0.88,0,0,0,0.05,0.44,0,0
Provence_North12,30.49,25.99,5.32,6.29,15.04,6.65,4.41,3.38,1.07,0,0,0,1.03,0.33,0

Provence_South:

K13:

Code:

Provence_South1,38.01,15.74,21.09,5.5,15.31,1.4,2.13,0.2,0,0.12,0.19,0.32,0
Provence_South2,34.84,10.76,20.98,9.2,17.29,3.87,1.25,0.24,0,0,0.31,1.25,0
Provence_South3,37.18,12.56,22.99,5.03,17.45,2.88,0,0.04,0.78,0,0.73,0.36,0
Provence_South4,33.38,12.24,29.99,5.74,17.21,0.05,0,0.16,0,0.66,0,0.56,0
Provence_South5,32.96,19.11,23.18,6.29,16.25,1.07,0,0,0,0,0.64,0,0.5
Provence_South6,32.61,10.25,22.42,8.39,20.01,2.57,1.07,0,0,1.84,0,0.85,0
Provence_South7,29.98,11.9,19.58,6.12,25.01,3.87,0,0.78,0,0.92,0,1.84,0
Provence_South8,33.27,16.64,22.04,6.47,15.33,3.64,0,0,0,1.19,0,0,1.42
Provence_South9,34.37,7.33,27.94,3.74,21.32,2.31,0,0,0,0.6,0.59,1.8,0
Provence_South10,33.61,15.06,17.32,10.01,19.14,2.98,0,1.41,0,0,0,0,0.47
Provence_South11,37.62,14.69,21.09,5.11,17.95,0,1.69,0,0.36,0,1.48,0,0
Provence_South12,39.65,15.11,22.5,4.9,11.83,3.45,0,0,1.82,0.07,0.69,0,0
Provence_South13,40.68,19.36,19.86,0.24,17.43,0.9,0,1.24,0,0,0,0,0.29
Provence_South14,29.56,14.15,19.26,10.43,19.4,4.46,0,0,0,1.21,0.57,0,0.94
Provence_South15,31.84,15.14,22.22,6.33,20.21,1.36,0,0,1.53,0.23,0.58,0.06,0.49
Provence_South16,39.52,16.24,20.17,7.23,14.02,2.13,0,0,0,0,0.59,0.1,0
Provence_South17,39.12,13.50,22.18,8.15,13.81,2.82,0,0.42,0,0,0,0,0
Provence_South18,37.08,16,23.93,4.92,12.07,3.42,0,0.95,0.81,0.25,0.35,0,0.2

K15:

Code:

Provence_South1,22.34,25.64,10.82,2.99,16.57,4.75,13.02,1.52,2.04,0,0,0,0,0.3,0
Provence_South2,19.65,26.11,5.72,2.22,17.05,7.85,15.02,3.78,1.1,0.08,0,0,0.13,1.29,0
Provence_South3,23.54,24.02,2.07,7.03,20.31,3.78,15.66,2.5,0,0,0.26,0,0.55,0.28,0
Provence_South4,13.26,28.75,7.69,5.28,24.29,6.39,12.95,0.68,0,0,0,0.31,0,0.4,0
Provence_South5,19.07,23.66,9.74,8.79,18.03,5.5,13.81,1.11,0,0,0,0,0.18,0,0.1
Provence_South6,19.45,22.47,3.13,5.55,18.82,8.58,16.29,2.66,0.8,0,0,1.39,0,0.85,0
Provence_South7,18.35,21.53,6.01,3.41,15.6,6.83,21.67,3.54,0,0.37,0,0.44,0,2.25,0
Provence_South8,17.65,24.84,8.93,6.34,18.15,5.25,13.55,3.4,0,0,0,0.79,0,0,1.09
Provence_South9,20.77,23.17,3.32,0.39,23.83,5.15,18.41,2.19,0,0,0,0.3,0.44,2.03,0
Provence_South10,25.42,18.27,7.94,3.8,13.93,10.46,15.29,3.37,0,1.01,0,0,0,0,0.52
Provence_South11,19.45,29.97,10.41,2.29,15.2,4.41,15.58,0,1.42,0,0.07,0,1.12,0,0.07
Provence_South12,25.84,25.58,7.31,3.38,18.88,5.21,8.24,3.59,0,0,1.62,0,0.34,0,0
Provence_South13,26.88,26.07,7.91,6.97,17.04,0,12.86,1.44,0,0.71,0,0,0,0,0.13
Provence_South14,20.07,21.5,7.42,2.89,14.4,8.75,18.48,4.13,0,0,0,0.99,0.57,0,0.79
Provence_South15,21.58,19.03,8.04,5.84,18.37,7.27,15.84,1.91,0,0,1.05,0.04,0.47,0.54,0
Provence_South16,27.32,23.67,8.42,3.27,16.72,7.44,10.62,2.27,0,0,0,0,0.27,0,0
Provence_South17,29.13,21.36,5.08,5.01,19.02,6.85,10.10,3.45,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Provence_South18,17.97,29.78,8.86,6.01,18.21,5.9,7.87,3.65,0,1.11,0.37,0,0.28,0,0

^^^
Provence_South_Average(n=18):

K13:

Code:

FRA_Provence_South,35.29,14.21,22.15,6.32,17.28,2.40,0.34,0.30,0.29,0.39,0.37,0.40,0.24

K15:

Code:

FRA_Provence_South,21.54,24.19,7.16,4.53,18.02,6.13,14.18,2.51,0.30,0.18,0.19,0.24,0.24,0.44,0.15

Provence_North_Average(n=12):

K13:

Code:

FRA_Provence_North,40.80,17.43,21.41,5.27,10.37,1.96,0.39,0.52,0.17,0.22,0.47,0.43,0.57

K15:

Code:

FRA_Provence_North,27.71,24.52,8.57,5.77,17.53,4.79,7.12,1.96,0.18,0.34,0.08,0.06,0.39,0.50,0.48

Why should I exclude as outliers the group that is actually in majority?

Whatever, they're obviously descendants of recent Italian immigration, you should at least combine them with the more French samples.

**Peterski** · 08-30-2020, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Creoda

Whatever, they're obviously descendants of recent Italian immigration

Based on what? They are 60% of the whole samples. Provence is near Italian border.

To me, some of the 12 Provence_North samples look more out of place, for example:

Distance to: Provence_North8
5.75518028 Swiss_German
6.65942940 Austria-Tyrol
6.69130032 Italy_Aostavalley
6.98003582 FRA_Alsace
7.36030570 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North3
8.17110764 Swiss_German
8.22175164 German_Bavarian
8.22187327 FRA_Alsace
8.61930392 FRA_Central
8.74318020 South_Dutch

Distance to: Provence_North12
5.85830180 FRA_Belgica
6.60568694 FRA_Central
7.50445201 Belgium
7.58744357 South_Dutch
7.75107089 Swiss_German
7.78271803 Italy_Aostavalley
8.40116063 FRA_Alsace

You can make one average from all 30 if you want, or experiment how to group them.

**Peterski** · 08-30-2020, 05:24 AM

By the way, ITA Aosta Valley is quite similar to FRA Rhone-Alpes.

So why shouldn't Provence be more southern-shifted than Aosta?

Provence is located to the south of Rhone-Alpes after all.

Coastal Provence was inhabited by the Ligures in ancient times.